So incredibly sad

September 2nd, 2014 at 7:05 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

Two Work and Income staff made a desperate dash for the back door of their Ashburton office when the shooting started.

Homeless beneficiary Russel John Tully, 48, was yesterday arrested following the shooting of three women at the office, two fatally.

Lindy Curtis was last night in a stable condition in Christchurch Hospital with leg injuries. Peg Noble was on reception when a gunman walked into the office and shot her in the chest. A third woman was also killed.

Noble was 10 minutes from her tea break when she was shot at close range.

Yesterday, friend Elizabeth Rees said Noble was a second mother to her daughter, Kim, who worked in the same office.

Kim was due to relieve Noble on reception and had a narrow escape.

”She’s been crying and crying. She came home, saw her kids and it hit her,” Rees said.

Her daughter and another staff member had run for their lives to the back door of the office and then out to the street, Rees said.

I don’t think I can even understand the trauma the staff have gone through, let alone the impact on families and friends of those killed.

Noble had worked for Work and Income for 20 years and was supposed to retire years ago but loved her job.

”She lived for her job,” Rees said. ”She had a heart of gold and would do anything for you.”

If found guilty, I hope Mr Tully is basically never released.

The Herald reports:

Former Green MP has drawn an outraged response after saying the Government’s “brutal policies” led to today’s attack on Ashburton Work and Income staff.

Ms Bradford, a life-long unemployment activist who now lectures in social practice at Unitec, tweeted: “Shocking news coming in of Work & Income shooting: awful, but a risk when office becomes front for brutal policies.”

Internet Party Kelston candidate Roshni Sami tweeted in support: “Nats brag that 1600 people p/w move off welfare into jobs, in reality they’re pushed off welfare into hardship. Shame!”

But a string of other people following Ms Bradford on Twitter attacked her for the original comment.

“Not appropriate Sue. Of all people you should know that,” tweeted Auckland psychotherapist Kyle MacDonald.

Media monitoring worker Regan Gibbons tweeted, “Really Sue, you couldn’t give it a day before politicising this tragedy?”

Others described the tweet as “a sick comment”, “a total disgrace” and “disgusting.” One tweeted: “You are an opportunistic, moralising windbag.”

I don’t what to even call such behaviour. If blaming rape victims for getting raped is called rape culture, is this culture? Good on those who called Bradford and the Internet Party candidate out. I had a couple of people also try to blame the victims or their employers on Twitter and Facebook, and instantly blocked them.

Ms Bradford said she sent out the tweet – which has since been deleted – before knowing that two people had been killed and her sympathies were with the workers who died.

Oh so in Sue’s world it is okay to blame the Government for the shooting if they were just wounded, but not okay if they were killed? Really?

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90 Responses to “So incredibly sad”

  1. flipper (4,332 comments) says:

    Those who have credited Bradford with any morals in relation to her grandstanding actions on diverse issues must now realise her true worth.

    Bradford, and anyone else taking the opportunity to politicise that shocking event, is really in need of psychiatric care.

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  2. IGM (622 comments) says:

    It is also really sad to see this disaster being used by “The Herald” as a political showpiece, not dissimilar to the outburst from vile Bradford. Suppose McCarten will be working on stolen Emails at this moment. This is a disgrace, and what the hell did these poor buggers do to deserve it?

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  3. rightofleftcentre (72 comments) says:

    Paraphrasing Bradford: “well looks like they got what they deserved”

    Your comment, DF, that this is “murder culture” not dissimilar to the much decried “rape culture” as absolutely bang on.

    Disgusting.

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  4. Changeiscoming (202 comments) says:

    Very very sad for the workers and their families and friends. Must have been terrifying.

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  5. EAD (1,454 comments) says:

    It has always struck me as odd that people like Sue Bradford cannot see how the welfare state is a curse. It is either naive, or wicked, of them not to make the link between it and the gruesomeness of our underclass, the amorality of many of the people who live on them, the perpetuation of an underclass in a society as rich as ours, the failure of so many of our schools, and the utter lack of value being obtained for taxpayers’ money.

    Statists love welfare because it satisfies their lust for redistribution of wealth, however crude the fix may be. It also gives them a clientele to control. All in all, it is a corrupt, corrupting, demoralising and poisonous concept. It turns adults into children.

    Why is it that the criminal underclass can carry on as it does? It is because the State pays for it to do so. Why do children grow up feeling they have to kill each other at the slightest provocation? Because the state has removed the need for them to grow up in a coherent family unit, in which such feelings would seldom be fed. Why, when the link between single parenthood with social and economic failure and crime, does the state still sponsor so extensively single parenthood as a career option for young women? Because it assists the Statists mission to control and expand a clientele.

    Why should the families like those of Lindy Curtis and Peg Noble be expected to continue to pay taxes in order to maintain a system in which this kind of behaviour is bred as deliberately as lambs in the NZ spring? Because few dare, even in the face of all this evidence, to challenge the spraying of billions of taxpayers’ pounds over the demoralised and blatantly undeserving poor.

    When I talk about the illusion of left vs. right in this country, this is what I mean. Two parties who will debate endlessly over minor details of spending plans, but never ever discuss or meaningfully reform the system that is leading Western Society on the path to oblivion.

    http://www.cityam.com/article/1391561081/frightening-reality-welfare-state-we-re

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  6. adze (2,130 comments) says:

    I don’t believe for a moment that she didn’t know. She just wasn’t mature enough to admit her mistake.

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  7. Nukuleka (405 comments) says:

    adze: I agree. She used the word ‘shocked’ to express her feelings in the tweet and then says she hadn’t realised the two women had been killed. I don’t believe her. Now we must await the media’s ‘judgement’ on the National government who will be blamed for the tragedy! It will all be spun as John Key and Paula Bennett’s fault. Winston Peters is already covering his back by claiming that the when his office sent email responses to the alleged murderer they were returned as undeliverable. Crafty old sot.

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  8. Mother of ten (7 comments) says:

    I see on the news this morning (Ashburton Mayor Angus McKay interviewed) that WINZ staff had spent hours trying to help this lowlife try and find accommodation. Nothing brutal about it Sue, just a complete nutter who murdered sone hard working, compassionate people. Disgraceful comment.

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  9. radvad (736 comments) says:

    I am waiting for the day, probably after Hell freezes over, when Bradford, or any other activist, or even just a beneficiary, says THANK YOU to all of us taxpayers for supporting them during a tough period of their lives.

    Instead all we get is whinging and now murder. Could it be that all the talk of inequality made Tulley feel more like a victim and so contributed to this horror.

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  10. EAD (1,454 comments) says:

    This is the end game of welfarism, progressivism & moral relativity.

    When self-reliance becomes not merely an option, but an eccentricity, then the ethics of how we conduct ourselves in relation to our fellow citizen become completely distorted.

    The rise of the Welfare State and progressivism has become a sickening equation: the duty of the good citizen to pay taxes so that the feckless one can do his, or her, duty and become a claimant (whom the MSM tell us must not be judged as they are always “victims”). The only party empowered by this arrangement is the State, while the rest become working and non-working slaves. In that sort of world human life is indeed pitifully cheap, and aspiration is killed without any shotgun having to be fired. What we see now is the ultimate dividend of the policy of management of decline that got going in the 1960’s and was really ramped up in 1999; and my God, how we have declined.

    The truth us Labour is terrified of welfare reform. National make the odd statement about it, but their real intentions are made clear by their addiction to public spending that has not changed since the days of Rob Muldoon. Whomever we grant the privilege of governing this country, they should take a lead from Barry Goldwater who once said: “I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom.” Now it is not merely the freedom to flourish away from the control of the state that people need, but the freedom to live.

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  11. Berend de Boer (1,690 comments) says:

    So it’s OK for people on welfare to shoot civil servants, but it’s not OK for Judith Collins to “gun” for them.

    Right.

    PS: for the record, I oppose both. Just drawing some similarities here.

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  12. redqueen (597 comments) says:

    And this is the difference between ‘the left’ and ‘the right’. I heard about the shooting and simply thought, ‘We need to bring back capital punishment’, whereas Sue Bradford heard about it and thought it was an occupational risk for workers at WINZ. With all due respect to her, I think a double pre-meditated murder ought to incur a finality to it and we should let the dead at least lie in peace after such a horrible, horrible, tragedy. It’s not a sodding game and it’s not about scoring points for your own particular political cause.

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  13. prosper (172 comments) says:

    EAD. You have a great talent for summarizing an issue into a compact readable article. Well done.

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  14. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Berend de Boer says:

    “…for the record, I oppose both.”

    You must be a real moron with a warped sense of moral equivalence of to even try to equate the two.

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  15. David Farrar (1,437 comments) says:

    Berend: I’m sorry, but are you retarded? Are you really comparing a figure of speech at an actual shooting? Seriously?

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  16. aquataur (59 comments) says:

    Sue Bradford exposed for what she is – an ugly troll

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  17. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    Murder culture?

    There is such a thing and the state introduced it ,first by ending capital punishment and then by slowly but surely reducing the length of incarceration to only 10 years by the late ’90’s. This was done against the wishes of the people around the western world at the instigation of the usual suspects.

    We reap as we sow. Sadly there will be many more such tragedies.

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  18. waikatogirl (949 comments) says:

    I wonder what the Aussie police have listed on this guy?
    Complete obsessive nutter who expected far more than entitled to. Those poor, helpless WINZ women would already have been traumatized by his prior visits to the office demanding his rights. Receptionists have to put up with abuse and intimidation on a regular basis. Never an easy job working with the public. My heart is hurting for those women, and NZ

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  19. EAD (1,454 comments) says:

    Thanks Prosper,

    I recently read the book I linked to in my 7.22am post which has helped inform my opinion on the failings of the welfare state and how rather than helping, it ruins so many lives. This is a British book (I read mainly British media, in this case City AM) but all the lessons equally apply over here.

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  20. Dave Mann (1,246 comments) says:

    I have just read that (quote) “police say a decision on what charges will be laid may not be made until Tuesday morning.” (unquote)….

    Gee, that’s a difficult question. Man walks into an office and kills 2 people and gravely wounds a third. Hmm… gosh, that’s an awkward one. Yes I can see that it would be very hard to find a charge to cover something like this….

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  21. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    And all the fucken losers in this country are out on social media like Facebook justifying his actions because this country doesn’t look after poverty, WINZ is evil, National oppresses people etc

    Fuck them all.

    This guy killed two women who most likely have husbands/partners, children and maybe even grandchildren. They were just doing their job and anyone trying to justify this guys actions just needs to look at their own family and think what if they didn’t come home from work.

    This country is turning into a haven for fucken losers and excusers who blame everyone else for their problems except themselves

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  22. hj (7,184 comments) says:

    Sue Bradford said the Kahui twins whanau were people who didn’t “see the good side of life”. Peter Sharples made a turn and said it was the sort of place where they “could have had a beer crate dropped on them”

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  23. Dave Mann (1,246 comments) says:

    Hey, I’m not a welfarist by any means , but don’t blame the whole welfare system for this, OK? The guy is obviously a sick puppy, but this doesn’t mean that welfare per se created him. Assholes will be assholes.

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  24. flipper (4,332 comments) says:

    kowtow (7,946 comments) says:

    September 2nd, 2014 at 7:58 am

    Murder culture?

    There is such a thing ….

    *****

    It was for many years up to about 1992 seven (7) years before any lifer could be considered for parole. The actual average prison term served by those released on parole was then about 13 years. But please remember the operative words – “life”, and “considered for parole and liable for recall for breeches of conditions”.

    My guess is that in this instance, if the case is not diverted into the psycho category, that Tully will get a non parole period of about 20. But …. he will never be released on parole.

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  25. Black with a Vengeance (1,868 comments) says:

    Mmmmkay…We’ve had our day of compassionate mourning yesterday.

    Today it’s politicising the fuck out of this tragedy, point finger and play the blame game?

    Count me out. Sorry DPF but I can’t be bothered playing dog to your whistle on this one eh!

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  26. waikatogirl (949 comments) says:

    Even sucessful individuals have hard times, trauma, depression, disabilities, debt, any number of hardships and setbacks during their lives. But turn the page, begin another chapter and rebuild their lives and finances. This is how life is. WINZ is there to help this re-build, not as a life-style.

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  27. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    Dave Mann, there is the possibility that he will be found unfit to plead, it is not the actions of a sane person, but whether he is literally insane is unknown.

    And there you go, BWAV is already saying that responding to blatant politicization is “dog whistle” politicizing. Well, I guess you’d know a dog whistle BWAV, using one so often as you do.

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  28. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    “Count me out.Sorry DPF but I can’t be bothered playing dog to your whistle on this one eh!”

    By posting that you have just counted in and played. You are bothered and have had your say.Can’t have it both ways old boy.

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  29. Odakyu-sen (871 comments) says:

    It is ironic that so while many would oppose the death penalty, the perpetrator not only believed in it but actually carried it out.

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  30. mandk (1,033 comments) says:

    @ EAD,
    Brilliant.
    The problem with the Welfare State is that is has failed to differentiate effectively between people who need a hand and those who are simply bludgers or scumbags.
    Left wingers, however, will always defend the latter group because they want to perpetuate poverty and dependency, in order to cultivate vote fodder.
    We need more people like Paula Bennett who are willing to stand up to shrill attacks from Bradford and her ilk, and to stand up to the bleeding heart media.
    Socialism is cruel to the people it purports to help.

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  31. Dave Mann (1,246 comments) says:

    @ Ed: there is the possibility that he will be found unfit to plead, it is not the actions of a sane person, but whether he is literally insane is unknown.

    Regardless of his mental health, charges should surely be brought. Its then up to some scumbag lawyer to play the game of whether or not he is “fit to plead”, no?

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  32. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    Unbelievable tragedy for two completely blameless public servants and their families. It seems clear from multiple interviews that staff had gone out of their way to accommodate this guy. He’d obviously been violent in the past, with a trespass order put in place only a week prior.

    Making political headway from it is enormously crass, even for Bradford. Shame on you. This is not in the slightest about government policy or WINZ benefits.

    To make matters worse, this guy is likely to be acquitted by means of insanity. Who else but a psychopath can calmly walk into an office, murder an office receptionist at close range with a shotgun, shoot two others before calmly walking out, unlocking his bicycle and riding off down the road. Of course his sentence is likely to be worse than prison, committed to a high security unit for criminally insane.

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  33. Odakyu-sen (871 comments) says:

    Another irony is that under socialism, you tend to look out for No.1 and see how much you can get out of the system for yourself.

    Conversely, when you run a small business, you are there 24/7 trying to keep your infant of an enterprise alive. It’s like a child that you need to nurture. As the business owner you are always giving, giving and giving more of yourself to your projects. Often to the point where they just about suck you dry.

    My point being that as EAD summarises, New Zealand society should be entering the end-game of the welfare state and reviewing its post-war history of welfare. Has NZ not created a monster underclass in the naive pursuit of trying to be kind and do the right thing?

    This could be a key moment for the Conservatives to set the course of their master strategy for the 2017 general election (as it would be in bad taste for them to point-score over this tragedy).

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  34. burt (7,436 comments) says:

    before knowing that two people had been killed

    Typical lefty, re-writing history. The initial headline was ‘2 killed…’

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  35. Pete George (23,833 comments) says:

    @LIVENewsDesk

    Alleged Winz gunman John Tully has been charged with two counts of murder and one of attempted murder and will be in court in Christchurch

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  36. Mr_Blobby (209 comments) says:

    The propaganda and cover up has started.

    Incredibly sad situation. Sue (septic cow) Bradford has again shown her true colours.

    Some things don’t add up. Statements like.

    They had assisted him

    He had rejected help from the agency

    The root of all of this is in our entitlement culture, rather than be grateful for what we have, or thankful for any assistance received, we seem to think we are entitled to everything for nothing.

    Would be interested to know how many people are trespassed from WINZ.

    How many people are using their remote assistance system for trouble makers.

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  37. metcalph (1,367 comments) says:

    If fit to plead, the minimum sentence is 18 years (for the murder of two or more people). If there are aggravating circumstances, then more years get added.

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  38. flipper (4,332 comments) says:

    This comment is made without any intention of speaking ill of the dead or wounded.

    WineOh….

    I agree with your sentiments completely.

    But I have an small issue with your terminology.

    There are no, and never have been, “public servants”
    Those poor folks shot and killed, and the one wounded, were blameless “State employees.”
    May they RIP.

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  39. burt (7,436 comments) says:

    Mr_Blobby

    The root of all of this is in our entitlement culture

    Exactly, they very thing that people like Bradford cultivate for their own private gain being failed ideology lefties.

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  40. Paulus (2,712 comments) says:

    I assume he is on Parole ?

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  41. Mr_Blobby (209 comments) says:

    I have said it before and I will keep on saying it.

    “This will all end very badly” for New Zealand.

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  42. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    @ Flipper… is this really the moment to be critical of whether these “state workers” work serving the public?

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  43. mcardnas (84 comments) says:

    Would be interested to know how many people are trespassed from WINZ.

    just over 400 per year according to NATRaD earlier today

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  44. MT_Tinman (3,322 comments) says:

    WineOh (606 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 8:42 am

    I suspect the delay in charges is because the police are still working out whether he will be found not guilty because of diminished responsibility and committed to a nut farm.

    However surely they should by now, while they consider the murder/manslaughter/assault charges, have laid the biggie – riding a bicycle without a helmet.

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  45. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ WineOh (605 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 8:42 am

    This man was given every bit of help he was entitled to. He was not given all the help he needed. If he had been given that help, he would have been safely admitted to a psychiatric facility to give him the assistance he clearly required.

    Sadly we no longer have such facilities. Apparently it is better to leave these people in the community. Maybe better for the accountants, but certainly not the people who have to try and help them in the community.

    The fact is, no single government is responsible for these events, but cumulatively, every government for the last 30 years is. National will have to provide the answers, but they are no more responsible than Labour or any other political party for the type of society we now have thanks to a system set up to help those in genuine need, but instead helps those that think they are most ‘entitled’.

    That man may have turned into a monster (no he is not a psychopath, despite how much we like to apply that label to people who do these things), he was a man that was sick, and dying. A man who saw an empty house, and couldn’t understand in his troubled mind why he couldn’t have it. Mental illness will do that sadly. This was a man that had been a hard worker, and got ill. Returned to his home town to die, an apparently slow and horribly painful death. He survived off his own means for as long as he could, but the money ran out. The situation quite literally drove him ‘nuts’, for want of a better word.

    He got what he was entitled to. But he wasn’t entitled to that empty house or extra support because he didn’t have a child, he wasn’t a female, he wasn’t high priority Maori, or PI. If he was an immigrant, he didn’t even need to be ill to be given a house, and $10,000. They had found accommodation in another town, but he wanted to die in the town he was born in. A healthy person with a strong mind would have taken their offer – but he was neither.

    He was the sort of person that our welfare system was set up to address – alone, with no where else to go, no family, parents, or anyone else that could help him. He was not a young silly teenager who didn’t take precautions and ended up pregnant. He was not a ‘serial’ or ‘generational’ beneficiary, who was dependent on a system that they think they are entitled to. He was given assistance, but it wasn’t enough, and he was found accommodation, but it was away from the place he called home – a place where there was an empty house.

    Today he is a monster – an weak animal that chose the extreme and nasty option of killing beautiful innocent people.

    But mark my words, he is no psychopath – psychopaths are born that way – this man was born the same as you and I. Circumstances made this man the horrible person he became.

    The fact is, we have a criminal justice system that treats you better if you are a killer than our welfare system treats you if you are sick and in genuine need. A maximum security prisoner costs us more than $90,000 per year to keep. How much would it have cost us to give that man the empty house, that clearly wasn’t required immediately by anyone else, or even a motel unit until something else could be found?

    If you are male, single/divorced, alone, without kids, and ‘white’ – don’t expect help even if you are Kiwi – the welfare system our grandparent’s built to protect future generations won’t work for you, because it’s morphed into a beast that is destroying everything that was good about this country. It’s providing for generations of people who feel ‘entitled’ despite being healthy, and denying people who can genuinely no longer help themselves.

    Time we got rid of this dinosaur – but what party would have the guts to do that?

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  46. ChardonnayGuy (1,232 comments) says:

    As a Cantab born and bred, I’m heartsick at this tragedy. My condolences to the two WINZ workers family/whanau, and I applaud Paula Bennett’s prompt, compassionate and thorough response to this.* As for those who argue that this is the result of the abolition of capital punishment, ask yourself whether such abhorrent violent criminal acts have been reduced in the United States by its presence. They haven’t. And they execute people with developmental, intellectual, psychiatric and other disabilities there.

    *I can certainly see her as Stephen Joyce’s eventual deputy when Key steps down at some point in the future.

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  47. rouppe (984 comments) says:

    In the NZ Herald it said:

    The 48-year-old was on a disability benefit and said his doctor had told him he should have a mobility scooter.

    On an invalids benefit. Riding a push bike as a getaway vehicle. Caught in a paddock and required dogs to take him down.

    I think that GP needs a separate examination as to his competence.

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  48. waikatogirl (949 comments) says:

    Radio Live has single men whinging, that they lowest on the list for help at Winz and don’t get much help. Latest one just said he finally helped himself by getting off the drugs and finding a job. Well done, that’s how he should live his life – personal responsibility…
    Tully obviously had got obsessive about his predicament but not necessarily unstable.

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  49. burt (7,436 comments) says:

    rouppe

    Well spotted.

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  50. burt (7,436 comments) says:

    Judith

    Sadly we no longer have such facilities. Apparently it is better to leave these people in the community.

    Yep, that Clarkenstien has a lot to answer for running her self serving agenda to progress a failed ideology with the country still suffering decades later.

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  51. flipper (4,332 comments) says:

    WineOh (608 comments) says:

    September 2nd, 2014 at 9:08 am
    ****

    As I made clear, I am in no way critical of the deceased, and the wounded.
    I took small difference with your use of the term “public servants”.

    Everyone who works and provides services to the public is, by definition, a “public servant”, whether they are employed by the State or a private sector organisation. Of course I know that some folk seek to claim ownership of the term – for political reasons.
    At this point a smiley face would normally be justified, but not in this sad instance.

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  52. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    waikatogirl (35 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 9:35 am

    Tully obviously had got obsessive about his predicament but not necessarily unstable.

    He walked into an office and killed two people and injured another with a shotgun. That is NOT a demonstration of stability.

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  53. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ burt (8,030 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 9:36 am

    To be fair, some of those facilities were pretty damn horrible, and there was a united cry from the health professionals at the time, to get rid of them. She was only following advice.

    Unfortunately if meant putting thousands of people into the community, but not enough money was spent on supporting those people. And, it put many of them into the criminal justice system, that was neither prepared, or had enough professionals to deal with them. It still doesn’t. Only the most extreme come under the attention of our forensic psychiatry unit, the rest serve their term under the normal rules, and are eventually returned to the community – no better than they were when they were incarcerated.

    Mental illness is not the fault of the people who have it, but their victims are made due to the fault of a system that refuses to accept and deal with the huge problem mental illness has become in society.

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  54. RF (1,492 comments) says:

    Bradford – What a stupid thoughtless bitch.

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  55. Kimbo (1,265 comments) says:

    @ Judith

    He walked into an office and killed two people and injured another with a shotgun. That is NOT a demonstration of stability.

    Neither is it proof of criminal insanity. Indeed, the premeditated nature of his actions, including the balaclava and subsequent flight would demonstrate the opposite IMHO.

    So why continue to wring hands one’s hands over the supposed deficiencies of the state to provide for this man’s wants? I use that term, in contrast to your choice of words – “needs”-, Judith, in the light of what Paula Bennett has revealed this morning about his case and WINZ’s attempts to assist an essentially stubborn selfish person.

    You can’t placate, bargain with, or satisfy moral evil. Of its very nature it is unreasonable and “unstable”/chaotic.

    Tully was able to exercise self-control. He chose not to. All because he thought it was his right to live in Ashburton, not Timaru. And 2 people had to die for that?!

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  56. jaba (2,146 comments) says:

    just think, Sue Bradford was close to becoming the co-leader of the Greens (beaten by Turei for goodness sake). Now, if Labour and their mates win the election in a few weeks, she could have been deputy Prime Minister along with Wussell . ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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  57. Rufus (736 comments) says:

    This guy thought it was ok to kill to get a roof over his head? Nuts.

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  58. Kimbo (1,265 comments) says:

    @ Judith

    Mental illness is not the fault of the people who have it, but their victims are made due to the fault of a system that refuses to accept and deal with the huge problem mental illness has become in society.

    And yet with the advances in medication and other knowledge and services, the help that can be given to those who are “mentally ill” is better than it has been at any time in human history. It sure beats the good old days, when people were diagnosed as suffering from demons.

    If we so chose, we could expend our entire national treasure on psychiatric services, or a social welfare service that attempted to meet every person’s wish list.

    And if we did, you can be very sure it would still not be sufficient to solve the problems.

    So rather than be held to ransom by the likes of Tully, we rightly decide to apportion social and other services such as education, health, law enforcement, etc, based on balancing the needs, what is likely to foster overall good, meet short and long-term needs…and what we can afford.

    You allow yourself, by implication, to think we we have let Tully down. You can do so without me. Those who are mentally ill – and there is no compelling evidence yet that Tully is even that – still have responsibility to the extent they can exercise it, and many do live productive and beneficial lives. Kindly stop tarring them, by implication, with the same brush as Tully.

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  59. Crusader (328 comments) says:

    Does Sue Bradford have an algorithm that can advise how much money needs to be given by the taxpayer to each sad/mad/bad person in order to have them refrain from murdering innocent people?
    For that is the implication of her comments.

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  60. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Kimbo (734 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 10:10 am
    @ Judith

    Neither is it proof of criminal insanity. Indeed, the premeditated nature of his actions, including the balaclava and subsequent flight would demonstrate the opposite IMHO.

    well your opinion is clearly based on ignorance to mental illness, and how it effects people. I haven’t said, and neither have I seen anyone else say that his man was criminally insane. Yes, his actions were premeditated, but mentally ill people are more than capable of pre-meditation – in fact people with illnesses like schizophrenia often display overt pre-meditation to their acts of violence, as do others – all of which are not classified as insanity or even close to it.

    So why continue to wring hands one’s hands over the supposed deficiencies of the state to provide for this man’s wants? I use that term, in contrast to your choice of words – “needs”-, Judith, in the light of what Paula Bennett has revealed this morning about his case and WINZ’s attempts to assist an essentially stubborn selfish person.

    This man was not born a killer. For 48 years he conducted himself in the same manner as most people. He has paid his taxes, and when he became ill, and unable to work, he provided for himself until money ran out. Then he applied for a benefit, something he was entitled to. Because he was single, middle-aged, without children, he was given a low priority, and therefore his needs were not provided for. I am sorry if you think sleeping in the open is okay in winter in Ashburton, but as far as I am concerned, warm shelter in our society is a NEED, not just a want. I repeat, people that have mental illnesses bought on by circumstances beyond their control, do appear selfish, stubborn and fixated – something which those workers should have been trained to recognise and have referred him to the appropriate authorities. I wring my hands because those people that died yesterday, didn’t need to. They were just doing their job and a man who had a genuine need for help didn’t get it, and people who don’t and shouldn’t get it, do.

    You can’t placate, bargain with, or satisfy moral evil. Of its very nature it is unreasonable and “unstable”/chaotic.

    Where is there indication that this man was morally evil? There is nothing in his history according to people that have known him, that demonstrates any evil in his past. Therefore we are left with the actual evidence, which demonstrates what happened yesterday was uncharacteristic of the man, and therefore more likely to have been caused by some change in his health/life.

    Tully was able to exercise self-control. He chose not to. All because he thought it was his right to live in Ashburton, not Timaru. And 2 people had to die for that?!

    You clearly do not understand much about mental illness and the way it manifests itself. He chose the only thing that his mind told him was available to him. Personally important things, like a warm place to sleep in a town where they want to live, become extreme obsessions. His current history of not accepting what seems to be commonsense decisions, is an obvious symptom of mental illness, that should have been recognised, and acknowledged, and appropriate treatment sought. Hence my comment about him needing to be in an institution capable of dealing with his issues.

    We can make this all about him, and call it ‘evil’ and write it off to a ‘psychopath’ but what will we call it next time it happens, because if we don’t address what is lacking in our system, it will happen again, and I just hope you, or someone you love is not standing in the line of fire when it does.

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  61. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Kimbo (735 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 10:38 am

    And yet with the advances in medication and other knowledge and services, the help that can be given to those who are “mentally ill” is better than it has been at any time in human history. It sure beats the good old days, when people were diagnosed as suffering from demons.

    Yes there is plenty of help out there for people with some kinds of mental illness – but first it has to be recognised and diagnosed, and those people have to be sent to the those that can offer them the help and medication they need.

    That wasn’t done in this situation and yet evidence suggests that for at least two weeks this man was demonstrating just about every symptom associated with mental illness – he wasn’t living in a vacuum at that time – he was talking to and dealing with people who were either not trained, or somehow not able to recognise those symptoms, and/or there were just not processes in place to deal with them. Either way, it is all of our problem, whether you want to be included or not.

    We go to work, we wander the streets, we park our cars, we enter shops, and we do it all with the presumption that any ‘fruit loops’ in society will have been recognised and are being ‘dealt with’ and we are safe. When the people that work with those most likely to develop mental illnesses – i.e. people who are suffering some form of personal crisis – workers such as WINZ staff, Probation Officers, etc must have the skills to not only identify possible problems, but know that there are systems in place to get that person help, before it becomes an explosive situation.

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  62. Kimbo (1,265 comments) says:

    @ Judith

    I am sorry if you think sleeping in the open is okay in winter in Ashburton, but as far as I am concerned, warm shelter in our society is a NEED, not just a want.

    Your capacity to ignore relevant facts is stunning, and frankly, insulting to those who died trying to help this man. You are also presumptuous that I am not intimately acquainted with the effects of mental illness.

    He had a house in Timaru.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11317657

    “He had been offered a lot of assistance in a lot of different ways that he had turned down. He had been offered accommodation and things but he was pretty fixated on one particular house that was never going to go to him because it was marked for a family.”

    Just one question. Is everyone who kills “mentally ill” by your definition, Judith?

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  63. Jack5 (5,286 comments) says:

    Judith (10.46):

    The weakness of your argument is that it ignores that there is choice of action in many cases, and whether you shoot someone is definitely one.

    Thinkers have been arguing about the boundaries of free will v. determinism for centuries.

    To blame all crime on the environment or on mental ill-health is to accept completely determinism, and that is a very flawed position. It quite quickly leads to Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, being held blameless because they must have been mentally disturbed. Moreover, determinism’s proponents nearly always are selective. For example, Leftists convinced that determinism rules, and who also believe Slater and Collins have been guilty of something, will not acknowledge that if this were correct then (hypothetically) guilty Slater and Collins would fit their mental-problems definition and should not be punished.

    Civilisation can exist only if people act and treat each other as though they are motivated at least in part by free will.

    On another tack. In the Ashburton case, while the anti-gun lobby will froth about how this murderer got a shotgun, it is at least as feasible to argue that if security guards were both licensed to carry pistols and required to train how to shoot them, two of the three Ashburton victims might have been spared. Taxpayers might then also have been spared the cost of a trial and expensive long-term imprisonment of a killer. (I understand there was a security guard at the office where the shooting occurred).

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  64. Kimbo (1,265 comments) says:

    @ Judith

    Where is there indication that this man was morally evil?

    Hmmm, now let’s see…

    How about he killed two innocent people who wouldn’t give him the house he wanted, when alternatives were available to him?

    I’d suggest, like you are demonstrating now, he was primarily willful, choosing to ignore pertinent facts.

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  65. Kimbo (1,265 comments) says:

    @ Jack5

    To blame all crime on the environment or on mental ill-health is to accept completely determinism, and that is a very flawed position.

    Yep. Good call.

    While I still like to think I have the same social conscience that caused me to become a Labour Party member in my youth (including wanting to ensure my tax dollars ensure people don’t sleep outside in Ashburton and in winter), the essential determinism that under-girds left wing analysis, as Judith is unwittingly demonstrates, is something I now firmly reject.

    Folks hurling rocks at Sue Bradford overlook a crucial point – she was being philosophically consistent with her view of reality and human nature.

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  66. MT_Tinman (3,322 comments) says:

    Is someone suggesting this nutter just happened to have a sawn off (who does the sawing off and why?) shotgun with him, became upset and accidentally used it to kill two innocent people, wounding another?

    If not proof of intent is the fact he had the bloody gun.

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  67. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    A person will mental illness is unable to make rational decisions. To expect them to make commonsense choices, only demonstrates that you know fuck all about mental illness and how it manifests itself.

    The problem you all have is that you are placing your determinism arguments etc using the premise that this person was capable of being able to ‘think’, process, and analyse like a person with a healthy mind.

    Comments like ‘morally evil’ are religious based clap trap that you throw around in a desperate attempt to attribute blame for this entirely on the individual and avoid addressing any of the systemic causal factors.

    Yes, he was ‘wilful’ but that was during an episode of extreme mental ‘dysfunction’, it was part of, or an outcome of, a deterioration of his mental well being that progressively worsened over the last couple of weeks.

    You people are part of the problem – a refusal to address those causes – which allows things like this to continue to happen.

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  68. Max S (23 comments) says:

    This case highlights the need for the reinstatement of the death penalty for murder.

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  69. Kimbo (1,265 comments) says:

    @ Judith

    A person will mental illness is unable to make rational decisions.

    Unable? No.

    They often have difficulty. But that is why it is important that they make the rational decisions they can – stay on their meds, avoid illegal drugs and alcohol, avoid living in a car or a park when alternative accommodation they hadn’t originally considered is offered.

    The problem you all have is that you are placing your determinism arguments etc using the premise that this person was capable of being able to ‘think’ process, and analyse like a person with a healthy mind.

    Maybe. But isn’t yours essentially a circular argument – because killing someone is an irrational act, and the mentally ill struggle to act rationally, then Tully must be automatically mentally ill?

    You people are part of the problem – a refusal to address those causes – which allows things like this to continue to happen.

    But I haven’t refused to address what you describe as “causes”. I’ve said I am in favour of support for the mentally ill, and the homeless.

    The concept (and reality) of Evil is not religious clap trap. It is when people who have a capacity to do otherwise, instead choose things that are bad and cause harm. Tully is a posterboy…and you are an enabler.

    Usually I wouldn’t be so blunt, but frankly, after writing You people are part of the problem in the context of the death of two innocent people you deserve a rhetorical slapping.

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  70. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Kimbo (738 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 10:55 am

    You clearly haven’t read my post. Yes he had a house, but it was in Timaru, and his fixation, one that he demonstrated more and more over recent weeks, was that he wanted to stay in the town he was born in, ie he wanted to die there.

    As I said, if he had the ability to use commonsense, he would be able to see what was the right thing to do, but he didn’t have that ability. The fact that he didn’t is a BIG indication that this guys thought processes were becoming extremely unbalanced. At that point mental health services in the form of the local CAT service should have been called. They weren’t.

    In his mind there was an empty house – it wasn’t being used, it may have been ‘ear marked for a family’, but at that time, no family had needed it. In his confused state, that house was perfect for him – it was in the town he wanted to be in, and it was empty. Another sign of his inability to process information that previously had not been a problem to him.

    No, not all killers have mental illness, but the vast majority that do are not killing with a rational mind at the time. Many kill out of innate instincts that we like to pretend we don’t have any more.

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  71. Jack5 (5,286 comments) says:

    Judith (11.12)

    You are confusing religion with philosophy. The boundaries of free will and determinism are a philosophical question. If you want to get an easy handle on the great question read Dostoevsky’s novels.

    How do you know this shooter was mentally disturbed? If so how disturbed was he? Why don’t other mentally disturbed people shoot up towns?

    The view that all crime is caused by mental issues is as flawed as Bradford’s argument that poverty causes all crime.

    Psychology is a soft social “science”, not some sort of physics that unlocks the difficult question of the line between free will, free choice, responsibility on the one hand, with, on the other hand, determinism – “something made him do it”.

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  72. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Kimbo (739 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 11:22 am

    All very well and fine Kimbo, when the person has been treated and has medications to take. But when, despite exhibiting many behaviours associated with mental illness, they have not been referred, and their condition has not been diagnosed by professionals and they have not received assistance specific to their needs, then they are unable adhere to the choice of taking medication that allows them to make better choices.

    Tully hasn’t been diagnosed with a mental illness as far as I know, but his behaviours as reported on the media, and by his friends that have told of his past, all indicate a man in crisis and acting in a manner that is consistent with someone in extreme mental torment, most likely to be a deteriorating mental condition caused by mental illness (and maybe even the disease he has??? is a contributing factor that ?)

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  73. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Jack5 (4,900 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 11:22 am

    Excuse me, just where did I mention religion in connection with free will?

    As you know there are many kinds of mental illness Jack, and not all manifest themselves in the same way, even in the same circumstances. I’m not talking about psychology, he is beyond psychological assistance.

    You read too much philosophy!!

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  74. Kimbo (1,265 comments) says:

    @ MT_Tinman

    If not proof of intent is the fact he had the bloody gun.

    In anticipation of Judith’s and Sue Bradford’s thought processes: No, more likely the state’s failure to eliminate guns and create, foster and encourage an environment of sufficient harmony in Aotearoa/New Zealand.

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  75. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Usually I wouldn’t be so blunt, but frankly, after writing You people are part of the problem in the context of the death of two innocent people you deserve a rhetorical slapping.

    I’m still waiting for the slap – you see you are part of the problem (note the ‘part’) because you insist on solely blaming the individual and not the system that let at least four people down.

    As long as we continue to address issues like this as the sole fault of the perpetrator, and fail to look at the systems and processes that contributed to the end result, we risk exactly the same happening over and over again.

    People like you, IMO, refuse to accept that their are social problems that contribute to this, because then it makes all of us have some part in it – instead it is easier to blame the ‘sick’ individual – to distance oneself, and then not have to look too closely at what it says about the type of society we have become.

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  76. Kimbo (1,265 comments) says:

    OK, Judith.

    Enough crap about how “we” are responsible for the “systemic conditions” that supposedly led to this brutal slaying of two innocent people. Let’s give you enough rope:

    How about you tell us what concrete and specific actions should have been taken

    1. in Tully’s case to stop this,

    2. and what systemic changes should be made.

    Specifics including costings, not platitudes, thank you….

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  77. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Kimbo (740 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 11:33 am

    Now you are being catty and stupid. Grow up!

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  78. Lindsay Addie (1,342 comments) says:

    Going by the news reports online the police pooches have made some decent holes in Tully’s legs.

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  79. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Kimbo (741 comments) says:
    September 2nd, 2014 at 11:40 am

    Christ, you are very full of your own importance, aren’t you? Who do you think you are ‘demanding’ anything Kimbo?

    I’ll play your stupid game – but I’d also get some assistance for your narcissism if I was you.

    As far as costing is concerned, it is irrelevant – unless you can tell me what the price of a human life is worth? I can tell you however, at $90,000 per annum to keep a perpetrator in prison, the costs to give someone suffering from a crisis episode is unlikely to be as much as that.

    2. People who work with public in situations where they are likely to come into contact with individuals who are facing some form of personal crisis should be trained to identify problematic behaviour and have a strict protocol to follow in all circumstances. Thus allowing a sufficiently qualified person to assess the situation and decide a suitable working multi agency plan that will ensure the safety of all concerned, including the individual, their family, and people that work with them. This should be available to all people, not decided by certain criteria, such as it is at present – which is a criteria that is based on ‘priority’ according to family and social etc.

    The system should be open enough to not require the person at the front to deal with or address the needs of such people on an ongoing basis – other than to refer them immediately to an appropriately qualified and experienced person. All people who have to be trespassed should immediately receive attention from a crisis team – leaving a person without a means of getting professional support will only make that crisis worse – as we have seen.

    1. In Tully’s case, when it was demonstrated he had no where to live, and would not accept a property in an alternative area, and I believe from reports started to show signs of becoming increasingly upset – he should have been referred to a crisis team for assessment. This team should have the ability to access whatever funds, medical assistance, professional assistance and material sources, that are needed to find a workable solution, not necessarily giving the person exactly what he wants, but having people attend to him that are able to find a way to address his needs in a manner that gives him an acceptable solution.

    I point out again that males in this age group, that are single, and alone and who are unable to work due to health problems, are a very low priority and are not entitled to many of the extra assistance on offer to others.

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  80. Shunda barunda (2,986 comments) says:

    “No, not all killers have mental illness, but the vast majority that do are not killing with a rational mind at the time. Many kill out of innate instincts that we like to pretend we don’t have any more.”

    Ok, so why didn’t this chap turn the gun on himself instead of shooting 3 innocent people?

    I’ll tell you why, because he wanted someone to pay, he had a sense of entitlement to something that wasn’t his and couldn’t get it so he lashed out in the most appalling way. His circumstances are irrelevant to his guilt in this matter.

    As the prevailing left wing entitlement ideology continues to spread across this land like a cancer, we can expect this sort of thing to become more frequent.

    And the left fuckin laugh at tax payer funded musicians talking about killing prime ministers and raping young women.

    This shit is fucking real, and Sue Bradford has blood on her hands as far as I am concerned, they rot away the social fabric and then when the inevitable happens they have the damned cheek to use it as evidence that they are the ones that are right in these matters?

    The arrogance and blindness of these people is truly appalling, and now becoming down right dangerous.

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  81. Berend de Boer (1,690 comments) says:

    DPF: Are you really comparing a figure of speech at an actual shooting? Seriously?

    No.

    It seems I wasn’t unclear enough. I simply highlighted the fact that the if Judith Collins “guns” for someone (figure of speech), the lefties are up in arms. But if someone actually guns someone, it’s an occupational hazard under a National government according to the lefties.

    But clearly I didn’t get this sense conveyed.

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  82. goldnkiwi (1,617 comments) says:

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3
    Judith (8,455 comments) says:

    September 2nd, 2014 at 11:22 am

    Lucky that you have such ‘vast’ contact with murderers and their circumstances to make all these comments aren’t you ‘Judith’. Have you consulted you ‘oracles’ today?

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  83. waikatogirl (949 comments) says:

    Reported there has been a significant upsurge of abuse at WINZ offices today!!! That is horrible.

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  84. KevinH (1,257 comments) says:

    The victims were:
    Leigh Cleveland

    Leigh Cleveland loved her job and her dogs, and was a “camp mother” within the dog show community in Canterbury.

    Ms Cleveland, who was known as Leigh, died after yesterday’s Work and Income office shootings in Ashburton, along with Peg Noble, 67.

    Ms Cleveland never married or had children, but had two rottweiler dogs who filled her life, friends within the rottweiler community said.

    Ms Cleveland grew up in Alexandra with two brothers and a sister.

    Her mother Kathleen Cleveland said it was hard to think straight after receiving the news of her daughter’s death yesterday.

    Peg Noble

    Tribute have also been made to Ms Noble, who also died in the attack.

    Ms Noble was well known around the town. She was “hard but fair” in her job, friends say – someone who wouldn’t tolerate rule breaking or idleness. “She was good at her job – hard but fair, but in that job you’d have to be. I couldn’t do it and she certainly didn’t deserve that ending,” said one friend.

    They played together at the Ashburton RSA and MSA (Mutual School of Arts) and toured New Zealand playing tournaments, even winning a big competition in Christchurch one year.

    “Peg was great fun to be around – a laugh a minute,” the friend said, who did not wish to be named. “Whenever I popped in to Winz she was always up for a chat.”

    Her partner Don, a shearer, would be devastated, the friend said. “They were truly made for one another as far as I could see.”

    A man at Ms Noble’s home said the family was not in a position to speak yet.

    Lindy Curtis

    Another colleague, Lindy Curtis, was seriously injured in the shooting.

    Ms Curtis was flown to Christchurch Hospital in a critical condition yesterday. Hospital staff said they could not comment on her condition.

    Social Development Minister Paula Bennett today said Ms Curtis had asked for complete privacy. “I think the fact that she’s talking and asking for that is an indication she is recovering,” Ms Bennett said.

    A friend of Ms Curtis described her as a lovely person. She said it was “unfair” and “so unfortunate” that she had been caught up in the horror.

    Ms Curtis is a mother-of-two and grandmother who lives in Rakaia, 27km from Ashburton, with her partner.

    Neighbours said yesterday they were shocked to hear Ms Curtis had been injured in the shooting. They did not know her well, but said she was a nice woman.

    All the victims were loving caring people, mothers, daughters, sisters, wives whom unselfishly gave their time and professional skills to assist the least fortunate people in their community. They will be remembered for their commitment and service to the community they lived in.

    Tragically their lives were cut short by a psychopath who will be held accountable for his crimes.

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  85. deadrightkev (610 comments) says:

    There are no hopers that drive drunk or stoned and wipe out innocent people on the NZ roads every week of the year.

    Is this any different? I say not much. A gunman instead of a driver in a car.

    These innocent people will be forgotten about next week like the road kills.

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  86. Recidivist_offender (31 comments) says:

    This is why us right wingers need to hunt down and summarily execute all left wingers and beneficiaries and the sick. The weak need to be euthanized.

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  87. Left Right and Centre (3,014 comments) says:

    Throw away the key.

    He killed the receptionist – I mean – case managers would make a bit more sense compared to a receptionist.

    I am waiting for the day, probably after Hell freezes over, when Bradford, or any other activist, or even just a beneficiary, says THANK YOU to all of us taxpayers for supporting them during a tough period of their lives.

    Well, it must be your lucky day pal. THANK YOU very very much to all taxpayers for supporting me during this tough period of my life.

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  88. Left Right and Centre (3,014 comments) says:

    Um – might motivate me to be in work – I don’t want to meet my maker while being kept waiting forever at the WINZ office – death’s waiting room. Ah – who would have me ?

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  89. ChardonnayGuy (1,232 comments) says:

    Was Mr Tully mentally ill? Possibly.

    Was he receiving appropriate community and government assistance? According to Ms Bennett, yes.

    Is there a problem with a shortage of acute mental health care beds and inadequately funded ‘community care’ in New Zealand? Yes.

    Do people fall through the cracks? Yes.

    Can they be meaningfully said to have ‘choice?’ The ability to make decisions involves some cognitive processing and current antipsychotic medication is not a ‘magic marker’- there are variations depending on whether or not one’s genetic inheritance or metabolism can assimilate the meds in question.

    Does Tully fall into that category? At present, unknown.

    Is Tully a “psychopath?’ Here’s a link that may help to determine this. Please note that this evaluative tool, Robert O. Hare’s psychopathy checklist, should only be administered by qualified medical practitioners:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_Checklist

    Firstly, what is a bona fide psychopath? Psychopathy is a diagnostic category within psychopathology that involves a major abnormality in how people interact with other individuals and the surrounding world, Psychopaths show a lack of empathy for other people’s feelings as well as engaging in habitual behaviors that are highly deceitful and aggressive. Bona fide psychopaths tend to ignore social, legal, and moral standards of conduct in order to satisfy their own particular interests. They know the difference between right and wrong, but consider it irrelevant, as their overriding concern is what’s “right” for them alone at the time. Psychologist Robert Hare has a detailed inventory of what constitutes a psychopath, although it should only be administered by a mental health practitioner.

    Beware excessive glibness and charm in an inconsistent manner. The psychopath may act over the top in coming across as likeable and engaging, but seems to be able to turn those qualities on and off. The person may also be a pathological liar. She or he may lie about big things, like why they didn’t show up for a date, where they were during the previous evening, or their personal history, as well as about small details.

    The suspect party may exhibit shallow emotions: she or he may speak words of love and affection, but doesn’t seem to experience those feelings at an intimate level. They don’t seem to feel remorse if they hurt people. Finally, the individual doesn’t care about moral choices, at work, with interpersonal relationships, or in any other area of life.

    So, Tully may not be a psychopath- he’s not manipulative enough. But does he conform to other diagnostic categories, such as antisocial personality disorder? Again, this would require independent and diligent analysis to ascertain.

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  90. goldnkiwi (1,617 comments) says:

    I hope someone remembers to stop his benefit.

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  91. HC (154 comments) says:

    “Oh so in Sue’s world it is okay to blame the Government for the shooting if they were just wounded, but not okay if they were killed? Really?”

    Yes, it was not a good impression that Sue Bradford’s tweet left. But I do personally accept her later apology on her Twitter account, which is still showing for 02 pm on 01 September. Some here challenge her sincerity re her comment that she did not know at the time of her first tweet, that someone had been killed. While the answer to questions can probably only be given in absolute terms by Sue Bradford herself, it is very plausible that she did not hear the full story by the time she tweeted the offensive comment at 11:42 am on that day of the shooting in Ashburton.

    It was only just before 10:30 am that any media broke the news of a shooting in Ashburton, then with little details. A check on first media reports proves this. For instance Radio Live (always very quick with breaking news) broke the item at 10:28 am on 01 Sept.. This can be checked by following their ongoing audio recordings for Monday 01 September, which is still available this weekend by going there via this link:
    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Audio.aspx

    At about 10:42 am Radio Live did give an update and only mentioned 1 shot being fired at the WINZ Office. It was only in the 11 am News that the first mention was made of multiple shootings, and someone having commented that 2 persons were dead and one critically injured in hospital. A gunman was on the run and being searched for it said.

    So if Sue Bradford only heard the first news at about 10:30 h, or shortly before 11 am, she won’t have been able to know whether people had been shot dead. This still leaves open the question, whether she got more news in the meantime. Her offending tweed was made at 11:42 am, as a post on Whaleoil still shows:
    “Couldn’t she wait until the bodies were cold?”
    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/09/couldnt-wait-bodies-cold/

    As for Cameron Slater’s headline for that post, how sick is that, I ask? It is convenient to lash out at Bradford, but Slater can nastily whip up emotions as he pleases, which does not seem to offend many that commented in this thread. It is regrettably not unusual that people get angry about their treatment by WINZ staff:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11318067

    Yes, there is no justification to get angry and shoot or assault people, but this man Tully is very sick, not just physically, but apparently also mentally, suffering from depression:
    “Accused had chronic boil disease”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11319849

    Some here are quick to jump to conclusions, and while I think Sue Bradford commented at the wrong time, in an inappropriate way, stretching facts a bit, there have indeed been very major changes in the way WINZ work with “clients”, and in what they expect from them. Some have been warning about dire consequences for some time, not necessarily this dramatic, but more in the way of people potentially self-harming or taking their own lives, as some did in the UK, where the blueprint for the “reforms” here comes from. It may pay for some here to inform themselves on this:
    http://accforum.org/forums/index.php?/topic/15188-medical-and-work-capability-assessments-based-on-the-bps-model-aimed-at-disentiteling-affected-from-welfare-benefits-and-acc-compo/

    http://accforum.org/forums/index.php?/topic/15463-designated-doctors-%e2%80%93-used-by-work-and-income-some-also-used-by-acc/

    The ACC Forum may be a bit controversial for some, as some members there have their own mental “issues”, but there is another “blog” or forum under ‘nzsocialjusticeblog2013’, providing information about what may cause people on benefits much fear and stress (Google it).

    Tully has destroyed 2 lives, injured a third, caused much fear, and has also destroyed his own future for good now. I feel very sorry for WINZ workers who want to genuinely help people and get attacked for what they do, but I have personally in past involvements with WINZ also met some rather unhelpful staff. All of them are expected to implement some controversial policies that need a look at.

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