General Debate 20 May 2015

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Shawn Herles

“Compare the flag referndum with polling (if any) on immigration.”

You have only ever managed to come up with a single poll on that issue, and other polls show different results.

“It is vested interests who are behind immigration”

Al interests are vested interests.
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May 20, 2015 12:40pm
stephieboy

From my link below the rat bone finds are at best inconclusive,

“…Before more scientists are convinced of the early arrival scenario, there would need to be a new find of rat bones from beneath the 232 Taupō ash layer, or a corroboration of the 50–150 dating of rat bones, using other dating methods. The most recent radiocarbon dates of rat bones, published in 2004, do not support the early arrival scenario. Six dates on rat bones from one of the South Island cave sites, carried out by two different laboratories, all came out at 1250 or younger.
If people did arrive as early as 50–150, and introduced the rat, they either died out or did not stay, as there are no other traces of human settlement until 1250–1300.”

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/when-was-new-zealand-first-settled/page-5
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May 20, 2015 12:43pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@ Mikenmild and others

If you want an up-to-date, well-written layman’s account of the origins of the peoples who settled NZ and all the competing theories etc, then I suggest you read Chapter One of “Tangata Whenua” published by Bridget Williams Books 2014.
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May 20, 2015 12:51pm
freethinker

James Stephenson (2,516 comments) says:
May 20th, 2015 at 8:32 am
The cheque issues from Dotcom and The Casino at least indicate there was initially a successful intention to circumvent the Law and Banks denial of knowledge beggars belief. The more important issue is the apparent actions of the prosecuting QC and The Solicitor General who as officers of the Court do know the rules of disclosure and the lack of any visible accountability increases a public perception of Judicial/legal corruption at the highest level.
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May 20, 2015 12:54pm
mikenmild

Thanks Maggy, I might get that. My main source on the topic has been Kerry Howe’s ‘The Quest for Origins’, but that might be getting a little outdated now (2003). It’s good on what is actually known about the settlement of NZ, and particularly strong on the various pseudohistorical theories that have emerged over time.
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May 20, 2015 12:56pm
Yoza

Colville (2,599 comments) says:
May 20th, 2015 at 9:53 am

[Yoza]Such a smoke and mirrors system was so dodgy the law was changed to prevent this kind of corruption in future elections. Saying John Banks got off on a technicality is a very generous description of the outcome of this case.

Totally wrong.

The law was changed to stop what Lecher Len Brown and the Right Honourable David Cunliffe both did.

No, I think the influence of large anonymous donations and the funding of election campaigns really came to a head during the 2005 election with the Exclusive Brethren campaigning for National and the Labour Party’s dodgy tax-payer funded pledge card.
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May 20, 2015 12:57pm
OneTrack

Yoza, can you explain what was wrong about the Exclusive Brethren “campaigning” for National. Don’t they have any rights in a democracy?
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May 20, 2015 1:00pm
wellygirl

“Both myself and Lisa Prager (two of the three whose complaints sparked the Police investigation of John Banks), both agree that the Solicitor-General should appeal this Court of Appeal decision.

Penny Bright”

Penny, you have not provided any legal reason for why this decision should be appealed, until you do your opinion is worthless. Just because you don’t like the decision does not mean it should be appealed, however, if you can show why you think you know better than the Court of Appeal, and why you think your legal knowledge is greater, and provide the legal reasoning for why this decision should be appealed, then maybe people will think you actually care about justice, otherwise you are looking like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum, calling for an appeal out of spite. And if there is one thing most people in society despise it is spiteful people.
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May 20, 2015 1:07pm
Yoza

OneTrack (4,298 comments) says:
May 20th, 2015 at 1:00 pm

Yoza, can you explain what was wrong about the Exclusive Brethren “campaigning” for National. Don’t they have any rights in a democracy?

What was wrong was the National Party didn’t declare the Exclusive Brethren’s financial support as Andrew Geddis points out: “An extensive leaflet campaign funded by members of the Exclusive Brethren church and devoted to attacking the Labour and Green parties was carried out with a (still disputed) degree of knowledge on the part of the National Party, and on at least some occasions breached the legal requirement that they identify the ‘true identity’ of the person publishing them (Hager, 2006, pp.238-40). Other examples of ‘third-party’ advertising by various trade unions and the racing industry also appeared to contravene the rules requiring the authorisation of such messages and the identification of their source.
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May 20, 2015 1:12pm
hj

Bahar Mustafa has already caused controversy after telling white people and men not to come to a diversity event. She hit the headlines again last week after claiming it was impossible for her racist and sexist because she is an ethnic minority woman.
“I, an ethnic minority woman, cannot be racist or sexist towards white men, because racism and sexism describe structures of privilege based on race and gender,” she said.

“Therefore, woman of colour and minority genders cannot be racist or sexist, since we do not stand to benefit from such a system.”

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05/19/diversity-officer-could-lose-job-after-tweeting-kill-all-white-men/#disqus_thread
….

she’s using professor Spoonley’s definition of racism:

Racism is the ideological belief that people can be classified into ‘races’ … [which] can be
ranked in terms of superiority and inferiority … racism is the acceptance of racial superiority … It is often used to refer to the expression of an ideology of racial superiority in the situation where the holder has some power. Thus prejudice plus power denotes racism in the modern sense … racism is essentially an attitudinal or ideological phenomenon. … A dominant group not only holds negative beliefs about other groups but, because of the power to control resources, is able to practice those beliefs in a discriminatory way … This ideological concept structures social and political relationships and derives from a history of European colonialism. The idea of ‘race’ has evolved from its use in scientific explanation (now discredited) and as a justification in the oppression of colonised, non European people

https://medianz.otago.ac.nz/medianz/article/download/34/39
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May 20, 2015 1:19pm
hj

Shawn Herles (8,827 comments) says:
May 20th, 2015 at 12:40 pm

“Compare the flag referndum with polling (if any) on immigration.”

You have only ever managed to come up with a single poll on that issue, and other polls show different results.
….
Attitudes towards immigration policy
Gendall et al (2007) found that satisfaction with the immigration system was low. Only 16percent agreed that the Government is doing a good job of managing applications for immigration to New Zealand, but 19percent thought that the Government is doing a good job of adjusting immigration policy to meet New Zealand’s needs. The majority (78percent) of respondents agreed that there should be more consultation with the public about New Zealand’s immigration policy.
Both studies asked respondents about the level of immigration to New Zealand. In Gendall et al (2007), 42percent thought the number of immigrants coming to New Zealand should remain the same or increase. Around half of those in Ward and Masgoret (2008) thought the number of immigrants was about right. However, both studies showed that perceptions of some immigrant groups were more favourable than others. Immigrants from countries with Anglo-Celtic backgrounds (such as Great Britain) or where English was the predominant language (such as South Africa) were viewed more favourably than immigrants from non-English-speaking countries.
http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/research/sopemi/sopemi_08.asp
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May 20, 2015 1:26pm
Paulus

Maori are indigenous and aboriginal to Taiwan.
They are indisputably gened to the Gao Shan Zhu tribe in South East Taiwan.
Even Winston will confirm this.
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May 20, 2015 1:36pm
Odakyu-sen

“I, an ethnic minority woman, cannot be racist or sexist towards white men, because racism and sexism describe structures of privilege based on race and gender,” she said. “Therefore, woman of colour and minority genders cannot be racist or sexist, since we do not stand to benefit from such a system.”

But she DID stand to benefit by excluding white people and men from the diversity event. Why else would she have done so, had not she perceived these people as a threat to her power structure?
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May 20, 2015 1:55pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@mikenmild 12:56pm

I’ll be hanging around here fact-checking all the biology/ecology etc……. pays to stay current unless you want to get sucked into the black-hole of pseudo-babble.
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May 20, 2015 2:02pm
Jack5

A British couple who lost heaps in a Portuguese bank collapse feature today in the online version of the Daily Mail.

Kiwiblog followers of the Mail who read this story might be interested to be reminded that the NZ Superannuation Fund has lost $200 million in the collapse of this bank, Banco Espirito Santo. The Superannuation Fund’s investment was through Oak Finance, a loan vehicle set up by Goldman Sachs.

The Super. Fund with various others – including vulture funds which put money in risky investments – is taking court action over the loss.

The Mail says the British couple found their investment of 140 million pounds was not sitting in safe accounts but was in an investment that fell outside a European bank “lifeboat scheme”. Perhaps our Super Fund is trying to get into the same lifeboat.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/saving/article-3088130/Can-trust-foreign-bank-savings-Margaret-David-Haddon-did-lost-146-000-Portugal-s-biggest-bank-went-bust.html
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May 20, 2015 2:13pm
Fletch

To date, there have been no archaeological finds that would support earlier human settlement.

Well, actually there is a HUGE amount, like the Stone City in the Waipoua Forest that is slowly degrading and has been embargoed until 2063 (why?).

But most of the people of New Zealand do not know what was found in Waipoua Forest over the three year investigation, at a cost to the taxpayer then of $500,000. The detailed mapping and notes of the complex of stone walls, hearths, stone structures defined as altars by the archaeologists, incised obelisks, petroglyphs (rock carvings), standing stone circles, circular stone mounds and stone-lined waterways were instead sent away to remain hidden under a 75 year embargo, restricted until 2063. In 1988, archaeological records on the Waipoua Forest excavations were transferred from Kaikohe to the National Archives in Auckland. The Transfer of Archives form states: “Prior consultation requires approval of the Te Roroa-Waipoua Archaeological Advisory committee or other appropriate subsequent Te Roroa authority.”

It was like pulling teeth trying to get the results access to the results of the studies done there, but eventually they did, including the dating of material in a midden dump there to the year 950, plus or minus 50. (see http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/fletchnz1/midden_zps74ifjtes.jpg)

There’s something fishy about having the results embargoed until 2063 as well (see agreement incl embargo clause hand-written – http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/fletchnz1/agreement_zpsgjpww11r.jpg).

As far as the rat bones, the Archaeological Association Conference in 2002 agreed that humans brought rats to NZ but didn’t stay.

Despite the clear evidence, some archaeologists did not want to accept the story the bones told: that the accepted theory of human settlement in New Zealand from AD1200-1300 was incorrect. The method of ash layer dating was vigorously attacked, but intensive retesting found it to be sound. A vote at the 2002 Archaeological Association Conference was split – 27 voted for and 24 against early human arrival. There was eventually a majority consensus that humans had brought the rats to New Zealand in 100AD, but didn’t stay.

http://elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~49~title~Academics_Agree_to_Pre_1350AD_NZ_Settlement.html
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May 20, 2015 2:16pm
Jack5

Whoops!

In my 2.13 post I incorrectly said a British couple had lost 140 million pounds in the same bank our Superannuation Fund has had its fingers burned.

In fact they seem to have lost 140 thousand pounds.

Sorry folks.
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May 20, 2015 2:29pm
stephieboy

Fletch, re the so called stone city in the Waipoua forest ? The actual source for your citation ?? Any evidence of artefacts e.g stone or metal tools, weapons, pottery or shards , ash pits indicating cooking along with utensils ????

Any alleged embargo is simply conspiracy mongering and has no factual basis !

Verbatim from my post above ,

“From my link below the rat bone finds are at best inconclusive,

“…Before more scientists are convinced of the early arrival scenario, there would need to be a new find of rat bones from beneath the 232 Taupō ash layer, or a corroboration of the 50–150 dating of rat bones, using other dating methods. The most recent radiocarbon dates of rat bones, published in 2004, do not support the early arrival scenario. Six dates on rat bones from one of the South Island cave sites, carried out by two different laboratories, all came out at 1250 or younger.
If people did arrive as early as 50–150, and introduced the rat, they either died out or did not stay, as there are no other traces of human settlement until 1250–1300.”

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/when-was-new-zealand-first-settled/page-5
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May 20, 2015 2:31pm
mikenmild

As Maggy’s links above showed, there is some reason to doubt the dating of the rats’ bones, so there is by no means conclusive evidence that any human population settled here before the 13th or 14th century. Many have acknowledged that it would have been possible for some parties of humans to have arrived in earlier times, but there is no conclusive evidence of human settlement earlier than the generally accepted dates.
As for the Waipoua Forest, nothing found there has been inconsistent with the generally accepted settlement dates.
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May 20, 2015 2:32pm
Jack5

World dairy prices are down again today.

Meat prices are also falling, and log prices are well down.

Will there be any mention of this in Parliament today? I doubt it. Politicians seem to have forgotten a country must pay its way in the world.

Still, there is hype about how big tourism’s gonna be.

Less bread today, but no worry, jam tomorrow.
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May 20, 2015 2:32pm
wellygirl

“KS: We can’t knock the Herald for not covering the Banks case, given how much they’re rushed off their feet covering the really big news stories of the day:

+ “NZ ‘stuck in internet dark age’”

(Headlines online as at 9am)”

Hahahaha…. this one made me laugh! What I wouldn’t give for NZ’s not so Ultra Fast Broadband over what I have here in China! Despite what is claimed, the internet here is more in the ‘internet dark age’ than NZ! And that is before I even worry about the Great Firewall, or the Great Cannon….
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May 20, 2015 2:52pm
Fletch

Ngapuhi Chief DAVID RANKIN –

“Let me just start off and say this, Maori are not the indigenous people of Aotearoa New Zealand. There were many other races already living here long before Kupe arrived. I am his direct descendant and I know from our oral history passed down 44 generations.

I believe this needs to be investigated further because every Maori community talks about Waitaha, Turehu and Patupaiarehe. This goes hand-in-hand with the other research.

As Maori, we have come to a time of maturity where we need to debate these issues. I want to get to a genuine consensus about this issue, although I think academics want it to disappear. If we start talking about it and investigating it, it’s an exciting opportunity to explore.

My ancestors like Kupe came to the Hokianga in search of other people. In the Waima ranges, there was a pipi shelter on the mountains, and the kuia used to talk about the fair skinned people up there.

A lot of people identify as Paniora (translated as Spaniard), indicating that the Portuguese and Spanish washed up on ancient ships in Northland.

In 2002, I went to the Austronesian Leaders Conference in Taiwan and we discussed similarities with Taiwanese Aborigines. We traced our origins and the Maori and Polynesian connection to China.

All the leaders such as myself and Matiu Rei, Aborigines, Solomon islanders, Rapa Nui and Hawaiians were all interested in early settlement theories. There is a lot of writing about the whole ancestral link.

Really, Maori didn’t navigate here, we came on a tidal drift. Te Tai Tokerau is actually the tidal drift from the Tokelau islands. When my ancestors arrived at the shores of Aotearoa, there were people here to greet them. The question is: who are those people?

It goes hand-in- hand with our oral history. There are questions written by Ian Wishart, Noel Hilliam and others that need to be answered.”

http://elocal.co.nz/view_Article~id~818%20%20%20%20%20%20%20.html
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May 20, 2015 3:02pm
mikenmild

Fletch
Franklin e-local has made quite a name for itself over the years publishing the pseudohistorical rubbish of people like Noel Hilliam and Martin Doutre.
To cover a few points made by David Rankin:
Kupe is a legenday figure.
An oral history of 44 generations by itself cannot be considered verifiable truth and will have certainly changed over time.
Maori, in common with many other peoples, had legends of fairies or other human-like beings.
Maori most certainly did navigate to New Zealand – there is ample evidence of this and there is no ‘tidal drift’ connecting Tokelau to New Zealand.
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May 20, 2015 3:13pm
Nukuleka

Did anyone else hear NZ First MP Ron Mark during Parliamentary Question say ‘SHUT THE FUCK UP’? I don’t believe it was heard by the Speaker. It is appalling that any MP should be so lacking in self-control that he used this type of language in the House of Representatives. The man and his party are morons. Any comments Winston Peters?
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May 20, 2015 3:14pm
Fletch

mm, there is also a whole series of articles on the DNA testing of one of these red or fair-haired, clear-eyed people (Maori historically referred to them as the Waitaha, Turehu and Patupaiarehe) who were here before Maori, and (the very few) who still speak in a language that is not Maori.

Changing Our New Zealand History
Tears run from her translucent eyes as Monica Matamua learns the news that may change the path for her tribe and answer questions that have been haunting her whanau for generations.

Eyes are the windows to the soul and for 72-year-old Monica, her eyes tell a story better than any words can. Those hazel eyes speak of a tribe of people, steeped in history and entwined throughout the years of Maori folklore, yet until now, fobbed off as eccentrics, strangers and in some cases, ‘mystical beings’.

The Patupaiarehe people (and the Urukehu) are well known for their light skin, fair hair and translucent eyes, which is evident when looking at Monica, who has been bullied and teased for years because of the way she looks. “I always knew I was different, but it has been a long and difficult fight to tell my story.”

A grandmother of 62 children and great grandmother of two, the beauty that emanates from this sweet and gentle woman belies a life of abuse from school friends, ignorance from other tribes and constant struggles with the Treaty of Waitangi land claim department.

Unlike many Maori people, Monica believes that her tribe came from a different lineage, one which travelled from overseas and brought new and interesting skills to New Zealand. Mostly, she believes that these people did not find New Zealand by mistake, in fact they mapped their way to the country.

Along with the special connection her people have with their land, Monica also speaks of a language which is almost extinct and is nothing like the Maori language that is taught in schools and originates from Nga Puhi.
“There are only two people in our tribe that can speak our language now and it is nothing like Maori, in fact it is nothing like a language I have ever heard before.”

Monica ascertains that the Ngati Hotu tribe spans back 74 generations (40 generations longer than the descendants of Kupe) and she believes her people come from a different background to other tribes. This is evidenced by the different skin tone, hair and eye colour of her ancestors. “We have red hair and fair skin. I have felt different to my friends because of the way I look all my life.”

Until recently Monica only had her family history to fall back on, history that had been handed down from parent to child for 74 generations. However, she now believes that thanks to modern day technology, her family might finally have the answer they have dreamt of for so long.

The stories that Monica has shared with her family sometimes fell on deaf ears, but it wasn’t until she participated in the National Geographic DNA Ancestry Project that she began to get answers to her questions.

In the DNA project, citizens worldwide are given the opportunity to find out more about their ancestors using genetic genealogy. It asks the question, how did your family end up in the country you live in?

The results of Monica’s DNA test are back and they have life-changing findings that have rocked both Monica’s life and, she believes, will change the general consensus regarding the existence of the Ngati Hotu tribe and their many generations of association with New Zealand and the land that is so dear to them.
In the next edition, we find out Monica’s DNA results.

http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~1076~title~DNA_to_Rock_the_nation_Part_1.html

Other parts –

http://elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~1108~title~Changing_Our_NZ_History._DNA_to_Rock_the_Nation_Part_2.html
http://elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~1148~title~DNA_to_Rock_the_nation_Part_3.html
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May 20, 2015 3:22pm
mikenmild

Fletch
As I mentioned above, the e-local has a long history of publishing theories about New Zealand pre-history that could be charitably described as ‘fringe’ but are mostly just complete bullshit.
There is plenty of reputable scholarship available that makes the origin of the first humans to settle New Zealand reasonably clear.
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May 20, 2015 3:32pm
waikatosinger

Did anyone else hear NZ First MP Ron Mark during Parliamentary Question say ‘SHUT THE FUCK UP’?

He didn’t say it. But he did whisper it, seemingly to himself. I don’t think he took the quality of the parliamentary microphones into account.
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May 20, 2015 3:57pm
UglyTruth

There is plenty of reputable scholarship available that makes the origin of the first humans to settle New Zealand reasonably clear.

Reputable scholarship, meaning cherry picked data that agrees with milo’s belief system.
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May 20, 2015 4:00pm
Manolo

True. Winston’s puppet did not manage to say it loud enough.
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May 20, 2015 4:00pm
Inandout

mikenmild: Oral history may be tenuous, but the Treaty Industry places great store in it, so when $$ are involved… As for archaeological sites being closed off, nothing surprises in this area, seeing how brow beaten our university academics are when a Maori spokesman growls. Academia in NZ are largely a gutless lot, and tow the Treaty line fastidiously.
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May 20, 2015 4:06pm
Jacob

Len Brown supports John Banks
… he expressed sympathy with what Banks had endured.
“I’m pleased for him in terms of what he’s been through. I understand what it’s like to be under the personal spotlight and it can be sheer hell,” Brown said.
“He’s carried out a strong, resilient rear guard action there, and so I’m pleased that he’s found his way through that and now is on with his life, and what his future has, all the very best to him.”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/68705243/len-brown-supports-john-banks

Another part of the continuing saga?
Auckland Mayor Len Brown has come out in support of his former political rival John Banks, saying he understands what he’s been through.

Did Mayor Len Brown contact Stuff’s Maria Slade and volunteer to comment?
Or do Stuff have no other “news” to report and too much time on hand that they grub this up?
“Brothers in strife” – vomit
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May 20, 2015 4:08pm
stephieboy

fletch,

First of all Ngapuhi Chief DAVID RANKIN is not I understand an official spokesperson for the tribe and his views you outlined are not those those of his said tribe.or obviously of Maori as a whole , academic or non academic .

Certainly most peoples of the world speculated and wondered about their origins hence the book of Genesis and the epic of Gilgamesh. other’s like the Celts and the Anglo Saxons had there’s woven into myth and legend .

Ngapuhi Chief DAVID RANKIN is basically no different and he of course offers no evidence in terms of say Archaeological fieldwork and excavation , DNA analysis of burial sites etc.along the lines outlined here . Purely speculation, conjecture and surmise . My link flowing provides a useful guide in discerning fact and fantasy about our countries pre history,

http://archaeopedia.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alternative_Archaeology

And yes, no surprises, that Ugly Truth has put his oar in offering us possibly another conspiracy about our prehistory with maybe a dash of his own cherry picking hollow earth thrown in ?
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May 20, 2015 4:17pm
Maggy Wassilieff

I’m not surprised that some Maori people from Taumarunui show northern Indian and Middle-eastern ancestry.
Anyone aware of the history of the King Country will know that Punjabi Indians settled in the area after WW1 and Lebanese hawkers/shop-keepers were present in the first decades of the 20thC.
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/34857/indian-immigrants-1920s
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May 20, 2015 4:21pm
stephieboy

Fletch, this comment about your article that sums up the claims concisely ,

Ian Brougham
Monday, January 20, 2014

“The Ngati Hotu that Monica talked about were the Celtic people that lived in that area. They were the desendant of Taine Mhor Ruairidh the Scottish people who were banished to New Zealand in 1120. Who were a race of people with fair skin and red hair that were here before the people who are now called Maori, which maori called the “tangata Whenua” Some Maori bred with them. The Ngati Hotu occupied most of the Central plateau of the North Island and were in control of the Taupo district and extended to the Hawkes Bay.”

Ian Brougham
Wanganui

Next we can expect Archaelogical fieldwork and excavations to confirm the presence of Taine Mhor Ruairidh the Scottish people who were banished to New Zealand in 1120.?? Plus further DNA analysis as added confirmation ?

Keep us informed and updated .

Waiting, waiting, waiting …………!

Maggy, a very good sensible rational explanation compared to the rubbish above !
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May 20, 2015 4:33pm
mikenmild

Inandout
I thought I made the point about oral history earlier in the thread, that it is obviously less reliable the further back one goes. I wouldn’t put more credence on a 44-generation oral tradition than I would on any other legend. Oral history from, say, the nineteenth century might be a lot more credible, especially if used in conjunction with other sources.
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May 20, 2015 5:42pm
stephieboy

milkenmild,

I tend to agree , Archaeological excavation or geological analysis of sediments near the e.g Euphrates or Tigris would far out weigh Epic of Gilgamesh or Genesis of the Bible and oral histories !
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May 20, 2015 5:48pm
UglyTruth

Next we can expect Archaelogical fieldwork and excavations to confirm the presence of Taine Mhor Ruairidh the Scottish people who were banished to New Zealand in 1120.??

In what way do you think that is a reasonable expectation?
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May 20, 2015 5:54pm
mikenmild

The Bible is a good example. Anyone reading it might form the impression that there was once a flood that covered the entire Earth. This is of course completely unsupported by any archaeological or geological evidence, not to mention being a hopelessly unscientific proposition, so we may discount the biblical version as an interesting legend.
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May 20, 2015 5:55pm
nasska

….”we may discount the biblical version as an interesting legend.”…

You’ve done it now.

Duck Mike….incoming ordinance! 🙂
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May 20, 2015 5:57pm
mikenmild

You think we might have some young-Earth creationists about?
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May 20, 2015 5:59pm
stigie

Got to feel a bit sorry for the Wellington Fairy being ejaculated from the house today.

He threw his toys far and wide because he couldn’t get his own way. Not a good look !~
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May 20, 2015 6:05pm
wellygirl

@Stigie, I think that is par for the course for Robertson, though I am surprised he didn’t just walk out!

I was talking to him during the election campaign last year (I was living in Wellington Central at the time) and I debated one of the Labour policies, pointing out how it didn’t really benefit the majority of NZers and wasn’t a great policy, and he didn’t like what I said so walked away from me to talk to someone who gushed about Labour. He isn’t interested in any point of view but his own – at least that is what I took from my interactions with him as my MP.
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May 20, 2015 6:13pm
UglyTruth

The Bible is a good example. Anyone reading it might form the impression that there was once a flood that covered the entire Earth.

Yeah, and a lot of other stuff that doesn’t sit will with the humanists.

This is of course completely unsupported by any archaeological or geological evidence, not to mention being a hopelessly unscientific proposition, so we may discount the biblical version as an interesting legend.

Straw man. Discounting a theory because is doesn’t meet some arbitrary criteria is an obvious fail.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
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May 20, 2015 6:20pm
Steve (North Shore)

This so called ‘publicwatchdog’ has only made three comments today in General Debate.
Wonder why only three? The silly woman used to hijack Kiwiblog General Debate.
Uma rapiti, uma rapiti, uma uma uma
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May 20, 2015 6:25pm
mikenmild

Requesting evidence is hardly imposing arbitrary criteria. Just because many cultures have flood myths doesn’t make the Genesis account true.
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May 20, 2015 6:26pm
wellygirl

“This so called ‘publicwatchdog’ has only made three comments today in General Debate.
Wonder why only three?”

Maybe she is consulting her legal books so she can tell us under what legal grounds the Solicitor General will appeal the decision of the Court of Appeal from yesterday. I am sure she will want to make sure that information is correct when she tells us.
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May 20, 2015 6:29pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7iixmov6nc1bssu/Godnutters%2023.jpg?dl=0
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May 20, 2015 6:32pm
UglyTruth

Requesting evidence is hardly imposing arbitrary criteria.

Misdirection. Your argument was based on specific types of evidence, not evidence in general.

Just because many cultures have flood myths doesn’t make the Genesis account true.

It’s the simplest explanation for the evidence.
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May 20, 2015 6:37pm
stigie

There are grown adults that believe there are fairies at the bottom of your garden to Nasska !~
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May 20, 2015 6:54pm
nasska

So did I at one stage stigie….then I knocked off the booze & they went away. 🙂
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May 20, 2015 6:55pm
mikenmild

Gee Ugly, don’t you just think that would be the simplest explanation for simple people?
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May 20, 2015 6:58pm
OneTrack

Yoza – “What was wrong was the National Party didn’t declare the Exclusive Brethren’s financial support..”

That doesn’t really explain the left-wing witch hunt at the time.
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May 20, 2015 7:02pm
OneTrack

“This so called ‘publicwatchdog’ has only made three comments today in General Debate.
Wonder why only three?”

Maybe she is still considering her opinion?
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May 20, 2015 7:07pm
nasska

It could be that she’s being a little cautious OneTrack. After her charmed run DPF awarded her a strike yesterday.
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May 20, 2015 7:13pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

Santorini (In antiquity Thera) blew up in the Aegean in 1638BCE, in an eruption 4 times as powerful as Krakatoa. Likely causing big tsunamis in the eastern Mediterranean. It collapsed Minoan culture, and fucked up the global climate for a couple of years which likely caused end of Xia dynasty in China. It likely gave rise to a lot of the flood and other apocalyptic old testament mythos of exodus (and almost certainly to the Atlantis myth).
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May 20, 2015 7:17pm
Keeping Stock

@ wellygirl (6.29pm) – quite so. After all, by implying yesterday that her legal knowledge was superior to that, collectively of Court of Appeal Justices France, Wild and Miller, Penny no doubt is researching case law to convince the Supreme Court to unacquit John Banks on a point of law they managed to overlook. Who knows; Hon. John Banks may yet join George Gwaze as the only New Zealanders ever to be acquitted, retried and acquitted again!
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May 20, 2015 7:19pm
Steve Wrathall

Since 2010 May 20 has been celebrated as “Everybody Draw Muhammed day”. With the events in Paris and Garland so far this year it is more important than ever to stand up against the assassin’s veto on free speech. Here’s my creation: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152777467487466&set=o.808322665949859&type=1&theater
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May 20, 2015 7:23pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

“In what way do you think that is a reasonable expectation?”

Because no archaeologists in their right minds would justifiably believe there is field and excavation evidence to justify it.

Of course that wont stop you and Martin Doutre etc doing some spade work now would it?

Get digging !
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May 20, 2015 7:32pm
stigie

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Penny+Bright+Cameron+Slater+Makes+High+Court+-nPfF0ofNEPl.jpg

Im sure i gave this coat away to a homeless person for a good cause !~
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May 20, 2015 7:35pm
nasska

It would look lovely accessorised with a dead cat wrapped around the head of the model stigie. 🙂
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May 20, 2015 7:39pm
stigie

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Penny+Bright+Super+City+Mayoral+Candidates+yRcx_xNIwVZl.jpg

No wonder Johnboy was desperate to get her down to Wainui Nasska !~
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May 20, 2015 7:42pm
Sir Leslie Bottocks

NZ Music Month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nkPI6BDZsE
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May 20, 2015 7:46pm
Reid

US can no longer afford to be superpower: Madsen:

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/05/19/411740/US-MILITARY-SPENDING-BUDGET-superpower

And we’re supposed to be happy because we’re signing a TPP with them which trades away more sovereignty than any other treaty in history, with a country that can’t even support itself. Albeit it makes and sells a lot of bullets and lethal machines to many ruthless dictatorships.

How many bullet trains are in the US, for example?

How many in China?

For example.
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May 20, 2015 8:51pm
wellygirl

And for a random comment out of left field comment, it has been another great day in Beijing today, for most of this week the pollution levels have been really good, right down to under 30 at one stage (almost unheard of!). I suspect that the pollution levels will rise in time for the weekend due to the wind of the last few days dying down, but I have been enjoying the fine, clear and hot days this week. It is starting to feel like summer after a miserable cold, polluted winter.

Random comment over!
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May 20, 2015 8:56pm
mikenmild

I’m not sure that the Iranian press is an authoritative source on whether the US can continue to maintain superpower status.
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May 20, 2015 8:58pm
Johnboy

Scoff as you wish stigie.

Penny is a fine example of an uphand/downhand expert and would be welcome to show Johnboy how to chip the slag off a good butt weld! 🙂
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May 20, 2015 8:59pm
stigie

A good butt weld under the slag is obtained when your rod thickness matches JB ?
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May 20, 2015 9:13pm
Johnboy

The thickness of my rod has never been questioned stigie. As I age however the amperage that I can wield it with seems to have diminished somewhat! 🙂
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May 20, 2015 9:18pm
Brigitte

@Bollocks

Interesting choice of song. Some facts that go along with it (copied paras from Wiki as it says it better than my paraphrasing):

The Save Manapouri Campaign was an environmental campaign waged between 1959 and 1972 in New Zealand to prevent the raising of the levels of lakes Manapouri and Te Anau as part of the construction of the Manapouri Power Project.

The single Damn the Dam recorded and released in 1973 by John Hanlon has retrospectively become associated with the Save Manapouri Campaign. Hanlon’s song was originally an energy conservation jingle to advertise home insulation, with the proceeds from its release going to charities. However, since the release of this song followed on from the successful conclusion of the Save Manapouri Campaign, ‘Damn the Dam’ is now popularly recognised as an anthem in tribute to one of New Zealand’s longest and hardest-fought environmental campaigns.
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May 20, 2015 9:21pm
Griff

Dying lawyer Lecretia Seales has final day at work ahead of death choice case
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/68694316/dying-lawyer-lecretia-seales-has-final-day-at-work-ahead-of-death-choice-case
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May 20, 2015 10:11pm
SPC

Asking Europeans about the indigenous culture status of Maori is akin to asking big oil for their opinion on climate change.
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May 21, 2015 12:27am
Manolo

Iran laughs at Obama: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/05/20/iran-supreme-leader-rejects-idea-foreign-access-to-military-sites-or-scientists/?intcmp=latestnews

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran’s supreme leader vowed Wednesday he will not allow international inspection of Iran’s military sites or access to Iranian scientists under any nuclear agreement with world powers.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei told military commanders Wednesday that Iran will resist “coercion and excessive demands” from America and other world powers.
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May 21, 2015 7:00am
OneTrack

SPC – “Asking Europeans about the indigenous culture status of Maori is akin to asking big oil for their opinion on climate change.”

Do many Europeans know where New Zealand is?

Oh. Oh. You mean white honky New Zealanders don’t you. I was a bit slow there. Who cares what honky thinks anyway, he isn’t allowed an opinion and just has to pay for it all. Isn’t that right Hone?
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May 21, 2015 7:16am
OneTrack

Manolo – “Iran laughs at Obama”

Well of course they do – they have their plutonium producing reactor, and all the progressives are praising the nuclear proliferation because they are scared someone will call them racist if they criticise Obama.

The question now is what will Israel do.
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May 21, 2015 7:23am
stephieboy

EAD, try, try and just try staying away from baseless anomaly crunching conspiracy theories and alternative moonbat realties today !

Manolo , just recall its not a done deal yet between Iran and the US etc !
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May 21, 2015 7:43am
Manolo

@stephieboy: Your progressivism and gullibility are always biased towards Muslims and paedophile prophet worshippers.
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May 21, 2015 8:01am
UglyTruth

Because no archaeologists in their right minds would justifiably believe there is field and excavation evidence to justify it.

The world does not conform to your idle prattle, idiot boy.

Within a few months of one another during the 1928-1929 excavation season, archaeologists at two southern Mesopotamian sites, Ur and Kish, announced the discovery of flood deposits which they identified with the Flood described in the Hebrew scriptures and cuneiform sources.
http://ncse.com/cej/8/2/flood-mesopotamian-archaeological-evidence
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May 21, 2015 8:17am
SPC

Only discovery of worldwide flood deposits of the same era could prove a worldwide flood.

And the article does not confirm what you claimed Ugly Truth, it says that the floods do not conform to the bible account.
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May 21, 2015 2:26pm