General Debate 19 July 2015

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UglyTruth

some crazy conspiracy theories including 9/11 conspiracy theories

NIST lied about explosions at WTC7.
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July 19, 2015 4:27pm
SGA

UglyTruth at 4:22 pm

Atheism involves religious belief because it its belief relating to religion.

Not playing sport because you think it is a waste of time is a belief relating to sport. It isn’t a sport in and of itself.
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July 19, 2015 4:29pm
mikenmild

Atheism is absence of belief, Ugly.
Do you appreciate the difference?
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July 19, 2015 4:31pm
Reid

Reid, me a Fox News fanatic ????

Where did you get that from ?

Sillyboy, the minute you start conveying accuracy with respect to how you report what you think I think AND say, is the minute I’ll start to reciprocate.

Meanwhile I’ll do to you as you do to me.
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July 19, 2015 4:32pm
Griff

The belief is that deity does not exist.

😆
Give me proof of a god ugly.
Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence
Spawns “because the universe exists” is not a proof. We then must ask who created god …occums razor kills that proof as dead as a doorknob.
If you can give me any logically robust proof I would believe.
There is none that will hold up to rational exploration ,….
So I have no rational reason to believe. I dont believe in gods based on a lack of evidence for their existence.
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July 19, 2015 4:37pm
Dennis Horne

Shawn and Shunda went of to pray
After antagonising atheists today
Not believing is really believing
Only yourselves you’re deceiving
Eh?
Nay! You must play our way
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July 19, 2015 4:39pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth , did you not see my am post in response to the alleged conspiracy about WTC7 ?

stephieboy (6,278 comments) says:
July 19th, 2015 at 9:17 am
Ugly Truth,

The claim that WTC 7 was a NWO conspiracy and controlled demotion are refuted below.

“….The fires burned out of control during the afternoon, causing floor beams near column 79 to expand and push a key girder off its seat, triggering the floors to fail around column 79 on Floors 8 to 14. With a loss of lateral support across nine floors, column 79 buckled – pulling the east penthouse and nearby columns down with it. With the buckling of these critical columns, the collapse then progressed east-to-west across the core, ultimately overloading the perimeter support, which buckled between Floors 7 and 17, causing the remaining portion of the building above to fall downward as a single unit…..”

etc, etc, etc

https://www.metabunk.org/wtc-7-building-7.t1094/

and WTC7 explained,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFJa9WUy5QI
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July 19, 2015 4:42pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/od9n5t2gbnqp6gl/Religionutter%202.jpg?dl=0
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July 19, 2015 4:44pm
James Stephenson

Yes, and because such irreligious beliefs are in fact about religion, they are religious beliefs.

Yeah, and bald is a hair colour…idiot.
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July 19, 2015 4:46pm
Odakyu-sen

Okay. How about this, then.

Can you be an atheist if you don’t think about religion?
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July 19, 2015 4:46pm
UglyTruth

Not playing sport because you think it is a waste of time is a belief relating to sport. It isn’t a sport in and of itself.

False equivalence fallacy.

Belief: Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion, eg atheists have the form opinion that deity does not exist.
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July 19, 2015 4:48pm
mikenmild

I think that “atheist” is a term that we do not need, in the same way that we don’t need a word for someone who rejects astrology. We simply do not call people “non-astrologers.” All we need are words like “reason” and “evidence” and “common sense” and “bullshit” to put astrologers in their place, and so it could be with religion.

—Sam Harris
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July 19, 2015 4:49pm
Odakyu-sen

“Belief: Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion, eg atheists have the form opinion that deity does not exist.”

So, if you have no firm opinion you can’t be an atheist?
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July 19, 2015 4:51pm
UglyTruth

Can you be an atheist if you don’t think about religion?

No.

atheism: Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist

disbelief: Refusal or reluctance to believe.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disbelief
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July 19, 2015 4:53pm
UglyTruth

Yeah, and bald is a hair colour…idiot.

False equivalence fallacy, fuckwit.
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July 19, 2015 4:56pm
Odakyu-sen

Oh! Disbelief maketh the infidel! (a non-believer). (Along with the atheists (deniers) and the guys that follow the “wrong” religions.)

I guess it would dangerous to not think about Allah in a place like Saudi Arabia after all.
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July 19, 2015 4:58pm
cha

Trump on RINO McCain:

Chickenhawk at seven.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/celebrity/deferments-helped-trump-dodge-vietnam
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July 19, 2015 5:08pm
Viking2

Shunda barunda (3,305 comments) says:
July 19th, 2015 at 1:50 pm

When the God Botherers invade Kiwiblog it’s time to go and do something constructive. Absolutely destroys GD!

It must be so hard for you living in a world of diverse opinions/ideas.

I recommend 50 cc’s of shortland street and maybe a dose of American idol (or similar), you’ll feel better in no time, I promise.
================================================================

The problem you have with this Shunda is that god Botherers have a collection of diverse opinions of the same opinion.

i.e tantamount to running around in circles for days arguing but finishing in the same orifice in time for next weeks weekend of GD.
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July 19, 2015 5:11pm
stephieboy

cha, good one . Now how many deferments does that make ?

Counting down now,Dick Cheney…. ,

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.html
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July 19, 2015 5:12pm
nasska

UT

Using “A” as a prefix owes it’s practise to the ancient Greek language where it means “not” or “without”. Examples are; abyss – without bottom; achromatic – without color; anhydrous – without water; atheist – without God.

You are probably happy that the the first three instances mean the lack of bottoms, colours & water. I doubt that you would argue that “without colour” was a shade of something, nor presumably would you try to make dry = to wet.

Why the hang up over “atheism”?
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July 19, 2015 5:13pm
Michael

I don’t believe there ever has been a god or gods so I guess that makes me an atheist.
I don’t deny the existence of a god or gods because so far as I am concerned there is no god or gods to deny the existence of.
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July 19, 2015 5:20pm
Dennis Horne

Semantics. In a sense atheism is a belief gods do not exist because there is no proof they do not. The strictly logical position is agnosticism.

However, I do not accept my faith in my judgement to reject the existence of gods, that is call myself an atheist, is in any respect comparable with the faith required to believe in gods, that is, embrace or accept religion.
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July 19, 2015 5:25pm
Reid

Slaves to zionism. Traitors to the US. And they’re in the Senate.

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/07/16/420591/US-Iran-nuclear-talks-Mark-Kirk-Lindsey-Graham
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July 19, 2015 5:26pm
nasska

Dennis

If you demand proof that something doesn’t exist before it can be assigned a prefix then life is going to be pretty indefinite….not to mentioned cluttered.

Prove that the Tooth Fairy doesn’t exist.
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July 19, 2015 5:35pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Yesterday I would have classified myself as a bigoted atheist, but after enduring the endless postings here on kb today, i have converted.
I am now an indifferent agnostic.
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July 19, 2015 5:36pm
nasska

But can you prove it Maggy? 🙂
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July 19, 2015 5:40pm
Pete George

I have no idea what this makes me – I think that gods are real for some people (whatever they make of them) but I have no reason to believe in them for myself.
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July 19, 2015 5:42pm
Reid

We should understand that the 9-11 cover-up is an ongoing crime that has to be maintained by the criminal cabal that is behind it. The real culprits need to maintain the official deception of what happened on 9-11. They can’t allow the truth about 9-11 to come out, for if it does they’re toast, so they have no alternative but to maintain the cover-up. As they say, no rest for the wicked.

For the real perpetrators, controlling the executive branch of the government is essential to maintain the 9-11 cover-up. The criminal cabal achieves this by making sure that one of their agents occupies the office of the president of the United States. The president decides who serves at the highest levels of the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, so by controlling the president the criminal cabal can prevent its crimes, like 9-11, from being investigated and prosecuted.

The real criminals, therefore, desperately need to control the White House in order to maintain the 9-11 deception because they are culpable for the false-flag terror atrocity and the two wars of aggression that followed in its wake. Only by controlling the U.S. president can the criminal gang behind 9-11 and these illegal wars avoid prosecution, which is essential for the survival of their criminal regime.

Jeb Bush’s Zionist Paymasters: Bloomberg and Rothschild
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July 19, 2015 5:44pm
Dennis Horne

nasska. Well, the tooth fairy certainly lived here for a while, but, there is a slight difference.

The tooth fairy is a rather trivial concept and gods are not trivial.

All I can say is I see no evidence on Earth of a personal god, I see no evidence in the universe of anything I would call a god, but I don’t know that the universe doesn’t just exist in the mind of a god.

We have moved past science to philosophy of course, and that is one of the difficulties. String theory in physics has too.

Give my best to Johnboy if you speak with him. He’s welcome to come back and niggle me off any time…
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July 19, 2015 5:46pm
mikenmild

Well, you are pretty far gone if you really believe that nonsense, Reid.
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July 19, 2015 5:50pm
nasska

….”The tooth fairy is a rather trivial concept and gods are not trivial.”….

To me both are trivial….very trivial. Ergo we are both expressing opinion over fact.

If something cannot be proven to exist then by default it doesn’t.
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July 19, 2015 5:52pm
Maggy Wassilieff

But can you prove it Maggy?

Well as I am now a recent convert to indifference, I have strayed from the straight & narrow and been tempted by your question .

So I checked Google and discovered that folks have tried to do this very thing….

http://agnosticismproof.com/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/feb/10/religion-christianity

but its all crap.
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July 19, 2015 6:00pm
Dennis Horne

nasska. For once you’re out of your depth. Try reading something about string theory by the lovely Lisa Randall or the undisputed genius Edward Witten to see where science is and why it isn’t science.
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July 19, 2015 6:01pm
Dennis Horne

I believe in Maggy. 😉 😉 😉

Anyway, I’m off to roast some potatoes. My wife is doing something useful…
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July 19, 2015 6:02pm
Reid

Sillyboy is very interested in MH17. No doubt he’ll lap this up. It proves what he’s always said – Buk missile, false flag, Ukraine did it, Western media lied.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/07/17/mh17-one-year-on-what-really-happened-and-why/

Well done sillyboy. Got something right, for a change. 1/2564 ain’t bad.
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July 19, 2015 6:19pm
Pete George

One News/Colmar Brunton poll for July 2015 – polling period Saturday 11th (Twyford Saturday) to Wednesday 15 July.

– National 47% (down 1)
– Labour 32% (up 1)
– Greens 13% (up 3)
– NZ First 7% (up 1)
– Mana 0.5% (unchanged)
– Maori Party 0.4% (down 1)
– ACT Party 0.4% (unchanged)
– Conservative Party 0% (down 2)

The last One News Colmar Brunton poll was 23-27 May 2015.

Apart from Greens back up a bit and Conservatives dropping to 0% there’s negligible change.

Preferred Prime Minister: “Now thinking about all current MPs of any party, which one would you personally prefer to be Prime Minister?” IF NONE: “Is there anyone who is not a current MP who you would prefer to be Prime Minister?”

– John Key 40% (down 4)
– Andrew Little 8% (down 1)
– Winston Peters 7% (down 2)
– Helen Clark 2% (up 1.4, really but she’s just been back for a visit)
– Metiria Turei 1% (up 0.4)
– David Shearer 1% (up 0.3)
– Phil Goff 0.6% (up 0.1)
– Grant Robertson 0.4% (down 0.5)
– Stewart Nash 0.4%
– Russel Norman 0.2% (down 0.8)
– Judith Collins 0.2% (up 0.2)
– Phil Twyford 39.5% (just joking)
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July 19, 2015 6:41pm
Pete George

Does anyone remember how quickly National went up in the polls after Brash’s Orewa speech?

Found it. Slightly different timing but very quickly.

From 28% in the polls a month before the speech, the National Party jumped to 45% two weeks after it: ten points ahead of Labour.
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July 19, 2015 6:56pm
Shunda barunda

I think there is a bit of a tendency to set up Dawkins as some kind of generic atheist, as though his opinions must necessarily be shared by other atheists. Once again, for those a little slow, atheism is the ABSENCE of belief in the supernatural – that’s it, there are no creeds, no dogma, no texts to follow.

And then you jump right into quoting Sam Harris, one of the high priests of new atheism.

Hilarious.

The guy is a proven bigoted nut case.
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July 19, 2015 6:59pm
UglyTruth

Well, you are pretty far gone if you really believe that nonsense, Reid.

If you think that it’s nonsense, then you should be able to explain why NIST lied about the explosions at WTC7, right?
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July 19, 2015 7:07pm
mikenmild

No Ugly, all your crazy theories about 9/11 have been refuted a thousand times.
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July 19, 2015 7:15pm
UglyTruth

Using “A” as a prefix owes it’s practise to the ancient Greek language where it means “not” or “without”. Examples are; abyss – without bottom; achromatic – without color; anhydrous – without water; atheist – without God.

The original meaning was about matters of fact, while the contemporary meaning is about matters of belief.

In the original sense of the word an atheist could acknowledge that he was alienated from deity without denying that deity existed.

In the modern sense of the word that couldn’t happen, since he would deny that deity existed and therefore idea that he was alienated would be meaningless to him.
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July 19, 2015 7:16pm
UglyTruth

No Ugly, all your crazy theories about 9/11 have been refuted a thousand times.

Still lying for the coverup, eh MM? You can’t refute that fact that witnesses heard explosions or the fact that NIST denied that they did.
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July 19, 2015 7:19pm
UglyTruth

I have no idea what this makes me – I think that gods are real for some people (whatever they make of them) but I have no reason to believe in them for myself.

It makes you internally conflicted, since deity being real for others is a valid reason for you to believe in their existence.
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July 19, 2015 7:23pm
Pete George

I’m not internally conflicted at all.

I don’t see any reason to believe in gods for myself but I accept that many people see things differently and strongly believe in a god or gods. It doesn’t mean I should believe in their gods.
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July 19, 2015 7:27pm
stephieboy

Reid, I didn’t know that you were such a prospect for N Z’s got talent re M17!
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July 19, 2015 7:29pm
nasska

….”In the modern sense of the word that couldn’t happen, since he would deny that deity existed and therefore idea that he was alienated would be meaningless to him.”…..

Then what is the current use word that best describes someone who rejects totally the existence of all mythical beings?
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July 19, 2015 7:38pm
Odakyu-sen

Maggy @ 5:36 p.m.

“I am now an indifferent agnostic.”

Well done Maggy, you have taken your first step into a wider world. (Line shamelessly stolen from Star Wars)
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July 19, 2015 7:44pm
Viking2

Hello, Welcome to the Psychiatric Hotline.
If you are obsessive-compulsive, please press 1 repeatedly.
If you are co-dependent, please ask someone to press 2.
If you have multiple personalities, please press 3, 4, 5 and 6.
If you are paranoid-delusional, we know who you are and what you want.
Just stay on the line so we can trace the call.
If you are schizophrenic, listen carefully and a little voice
will tell you which number to press.
If you are manic-depressive, it doesn’t matter which number you press.
No one will answer.
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July 19, 2015 7:48pm
Psycho Milt

Does anyone remember how quickly National went up in the polls after Brash’s Orewa speech?

Found it. Slightly different timing but very quickly.

From 28% in the polls a month before the speech, the National Party jumped to 45% two weeks after it: ten points ahead of Labour.

So, your point is that Labour should try some left-equivalent of Brash’s Maori-bashing? Thank Christ no-one would be dumb enough to take your advice.
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July 19, 2015 8:03pm
nasska

Recently I was taken to task about the use of the term, “towel heads”……

A politically incorrect term.

Please note, we all need to be more sensitive in our choice of words.

I have been informed that the Islamic terrorists who hate our guts and want to kill us do not like to be called “Towel Heads” since the item they wear on their heads is not a towel but actually a small, folded sheet.

Therefore, from this point forward, please refer to them as

“Little Sheet Heads.”

Thank You for your support and compliance on this delicate matter.
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July 19, 2015 8:04pm
Pete George

No Psycho, you’re making things up again. I would never have advised doing that, but someone seems to have advised Labour to do it.

Yes it was dumb advice to follow, you got that bit right.
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July 19, 2015 8:14pm
stephieboy

Shawn, Heles and Manolo etc ,

Donald gets moonbat surreal ,

Trump Says He Heroically Avoided Capture in Vietnam by Staying in U.S.

AMES, IOWA (The Borowitz Report)— “ Presidential candidate Donald Trump revealed a little-known episode of personal heroism from his youth on Saturday, telling an Iowa audience that he narrowly avoided capture in Vietnam by remaining in the United States for the duration of the war.
“The Cong were after me,” Trump said, visibly stirred by the memory. “And then, just in the nick of time, I got my deferment.”

The former reality-show star said he had never shared his record as a war hero before because “I don’t like to boast.”
He said that he only disclosed the episode now because “the way this nation treats our deferment veterans is a disgrace.”
Trump complained that he received no official commendation or medal for his heroism, calling the lack of recognition “shameful.”
“Those brave Americans who, like me, avoided being captured by not serving at all—we are the true heroes,” he said.
Trump’s tale of valor appeared to move many members of his audience, some of whom waited in line after his speech to thank him for his lack of service…..”

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/trump-says-he-heroically-avoided-capture-in-vietnam-by-staying-in-u-s?intcid=mod-latest
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July 19, 2015 8:36pm
Ryan Sproull

Stephie, you did see the word “humor” in that URL, right?
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July 19, 2015 8:42pm
UglyTruth

I don’t see any reason to believe in gods for myself but I accept that many people see things differently and strongly believe in a god or gods.

OK, now you are talking about perceptions rather than about the underlying reality.

It doesn’t mean I should believe in their gods.

And now you’re conflicted again. By saying “their gods”, you are implicitly acknowledging that they exist.

Escaping the conflict involves either taking the position that many people have got it completely wrong ,or taking the position that there is a reason to believe, or admitting that you don’t know the answer to one of the great philosophical questions.
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July 19, 2015 8:51pm
stephieboy

Ryan Sproull, yes I do see the humour / parody which given that is based on fact makes even more surreal,,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-belittles-mccains-war-service-sparking-stern-republican-backlash/2015/07/18/e9f814c6-2d7e-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html
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July 19, 2015 8:58pm
Reid

No Psycho, you’re making things up again. I would never have advised doing that, but someone seems to have advised Labour to do it.

Yes it was dumb advice to follow, you got that bit right.

Naturally it occurs to neither dummy that neither was wascist and simply struck a chord because for once in their miserable lives a politician had actually touched on what was really happening in the lives of their constituents.

Of course we expect this misinterpretation from Pete, after all, it’s what he does. But PM, thought you were more astute than that. Guess not.
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July 19, 2015 9:03pm
Pete George

for once in their miserable lives a politician had actually touched on what was really happening in the lives of their constituents.

Except that as well as knowingly (I don’t believe Labour could be that ignorant they didn’t realise a very likely outcome of targeting one of many nationalities who invest in New Zealand property) stirring up a race debate) Twyford may be quite wrong.

Did you notice DPFs post Labour may be very embarrassed when we get the actual data Reid?

And there’s more evidence here – Who’s buying Auckland property? – that indicates the opposite to Twyford’s factless assertions.

Maybe you have some facts to make Twyford’s case for him but I haven’t seen anyone yet help him out with any substance.
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July 19, 2015 9:26pm
Manolo

European multiculturalism (and investment): http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/isis-set-up-stronghold-heart-6094785
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July 20, 2015 7:00am
Manolo

The useless Varoufakis: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/13/greece-is-just-a-bad-poker-player-commentary.html
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July 20, 2015 7:49am

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