General Debate 11 December 2015

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Kimbo

@ stephieboy

…Kimbo’s arguments in respect of Islam are not weak…

Thanks, stephieboy. And if people are going to talk about me and defend my arguments, I may as well repeat what I've posted before:

Kimbo (3,966 comments) says:
December 10th, 2015 at 12:15 pm

Lucia Maria: If this conversation is not had between Muslims in Western countries and the general population, and if these sorts of murder/suicide events that involve Muslims seeking their perverse idea of martyrdom continue to occur, then no more conversations will possible and harsh measures against Muslims will be called for by the population. It won’t matter anymore that by doing so all sorts of constitutional safeguards are broken.

I think it’s important to warn people, as you are doing, what could happen if this gets out of hand. But I also think that an exploration of Islamic beliefs and where they might be taken is important too, for those that want to take their religion to the next level.

——————————–

Kimbo: Tony Abbott has addressed that very issue very well, recently, IMHO.

But I’m not convinced jihadist terrorism is the “threat to our very existence” that some, especially round here are saying such that those constitutional safeguards need to be compromised. Terrorism is undoubtedly serious, and tragic for those who have lost their lives and a nation’s first responsibility is to guard its people from enemies without and within its borders. I don’t want to see an act of terror occur in New Zealand, but with our involvement in a show-down with ISIS almost inevitable, plus something else in maybe 10, 20, 30 years, then I would not be surprised if something does one day happen here. But it is important to keep it in perspective. Israel, a free and democratic western nation has lived with this for years…and we are not surrounded by a dozen hostile nations that want to push us into the sea, nor, like Israel, are over 20% of our population Muslims…yet they do not put special restrictions on her Muslim citizens.

So weighing the security risk against the freedom issues, and with the likelihood of ever-more sophisticated surveillance and security resources…I’m reasonably confident we do not need to radically change our laws in respect of Muslims. But I am a believer in continual vigilance, and that no security system is foolproof. Because nothing in life ever is…

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/12/general_debate_10_december_2015.html#comments
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December 12, 2015 3:10pm
stephieboy

tranquil, I had look and an astonishing attempt at statistical analysis minutiae that would not take take account of context . I simply don’;t believe they’ve done an unbiased analysis of equivalent biblical texts as here,

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm

And do you seriously believe that all Muslims arriving here live their daily lives by a literal application of Koranic texts ?

Shawn Herles , kindly focus on the facts and issues raised in my links about Swedish rape stats and refute them please ??,
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December 12, 2015 3:14pm
Kimbo

and: –

Kimbo (3,966 comments) says:
December 10th, 2015 at 12:28 pm

@ Lucia Maria

Muslims may be rightly guaranteed certain rights under our constitution, and that must not change IMHO. But in terms of social acceptance, well, that is earned – and in the case of many New Zealand Muslims who interact readily and well with their neighbours (and vice versa) that is the case.

But “earning” social acceptance is a reality for every social/ethnic/religious group within a liberal western democracy. The reality of human perception and interaction is such that some have a lot more work to do to gain wide and automatic social acceptance. No amount of PC cheerleaders, nor legislation should ever change that basic fact of human existence.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/12/general_debate_10_december_2015.html#comments
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December 12, 2015 3:15pm
Shawn Herles

Andrei,

Remember Paris just a few weeks ago? Or the July 7 London bombings? Or the Beslan school siege in your own Russian Federation? Or how about the 14 people decapitated by Boko Haram just a few hours ago, adding to it’s toll of 20,000 murdered?

Wake up. 27,000 Islamic terrorist attacks since 911 alone.

Try and explain away that staggering figure.
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December 12, 2015 3:16pm
Griff

I think we have come to the conclusion that your delusion is untreatable and debating with you is pointless leewit Shawn001 lego
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December 12, 2015 3:19pm
Shawn Herles

“Shawn Herles , kindly focus on the facts and issues raised in my links about Swedish rape stats and refute them please ??,”

Sure, as soon as you can explain why we should not be worried about the 27, 000 terrorist attacks since 911, or why we should not be worried about the fact that ISIS is using refugees and immigrants to murder people in the West.

Explain away….
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December 12, 2015 3:19pm
Kimbo

and…

Kimbo (3,966 comments) says:
December 10th, 2015 at 1:23 pm

…But as someone has pointed out on KB before, whereas the Reformation (and also in parts the Counter-Reformation) were a “get-back-to-basics-in-the sacred-text” movement that helped spawn the modern non-sectarian western world…in contrast when Islam goes that way it seems to go anti-modernist. Or at least some do. In my opinion Muhammed was a bit of a spiritual schizophrenic and unlike Christianity – which admittedly does have paradoxes to resolve in the Scriptures – which Griff will tell you about with little prompting ?

….there seems little way of reconciling his seemingly random “peaceful” and “violent” utterances. So most Muslims just “ignore/rationalise/spiritualise” the violent bits (as admittedly modern Christians do with the conquest of Canaan, although unlike jihad, that was presented as a one-off not-to-be-repeated military campaign).

Sorry, but that is my long-winded way of saying Muhammed was talking irreconcilable crap, so it is a bit of a liquorice all-sorts what will happen if and when Muslims go back to the basics of Koran. Which is why it seems to me the majority imbibe and then fit into their family/community/national customs (as most people do, irrespective of religion), and happily identify with the corporate label of “Muslim” (which does not allow defection/treason by conversion to another religion), psychologically share in aggrieved injustice suffered by other Muslims at the hands of Zionism/so-called Western/Crusader imperialism, do the 5 basics that confirm their faith (prayer, haj, etc)…and then just exercise common sense like the rest of us, which naturally causes them to recoil at the thought of terrorism

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/12/general_debate_10_december_2015.html#comments
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December 12, 2015 3:20pm
Shawn Herles

Griff,

“I think we have come to the conclusion”

No, only you and a few delusional liberals Griff. Most people on KB are making the same argument I am.

Being a Liberal is not an excuse for ignoring reality Griff.
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December 12, 2015 3:23pm
stephieboy

Shawn Herles , atacks by the world’s 1,6 billion Muslims or by certain Nationalist ( Chechyan ) and various other kinds of Terrorist organisations ?

27,000 deaths vs c 200, 000 deaths etc in the Bush invasion Of iraq ?
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December 12, 2015 3:23pm
Reid

Trump gets it right yet again:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/262400-trump-media-is-scum

Republican presidential front-runner Donald Trump called the media “scum” at a rally on Monday night and singled out a reporter who was on the scene, calling her “third rate” and accusing her of lying about him.

“The mainstream media want to surrender the Constitution,” Trump declared at a rally in South Carolina.

“These people back here are the worst,” Trump said, pointing to a group of reporters on hand. “They are so dishonest … 70 to 75 percent are absolutely dishonest. Absolute scum. Remember that. Scum. Scum. Totally dishonest people.”…

Some polls are now showing %>50 approval. If you don’t understand why you understand nothing about politics. Plenty of people on here are evidently in that position. No surprise to me.
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December 12, 2015 3:26pm
Shawn Herles

Kimbo

“But in terms of social acceptance, well, that is earned”

And how many people, either killed by terrorists or women and children raped by Muslim rape gangs, are you willing to sacrifice in the meantime? Just a ballpark figure will do…

It helps to know how many innocents you feel should be sacrificed to the idols of liberal democracy.

As I said, pathetically weak.
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December 12, 2015 3:27pm
Andrei

Shawn Herles I am not denying Islamic Terrorism nor apologizing for it

It is a major issue we face

By the same token how many have died under American/NATO bombs in the same period?

There are 10,000 or so dead in the Donbas, killed in their own homeland and that isn’t Islamic Terrorism

Why did the USA bomb the Orthodox Christian Serbs to annex the ancient Christian lands of Kosovo where 100s of Churches have since been razed to the ground – many of them 100s of years old?
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December 12, 2015 3:33pm
Kimbo

…and

Kimbo (3,969 comments) says:
December 9th, 2015 at 2:22 pm

Odakyu-sen: …Why don’t we just ban the immigration of Muslims until we can learn exactly why they are killing our citizens and what we have to do to encourage them to stop.

……………..

Kimbo: And that’s an inverting of the burden of responsibility that I’ve called David Garrett out over…which he continues to essentially ignore. We have hard won (in New Zealand’s case uncodified) constitutional safeguards that must operate at a time like this. Muslims deserve those benefits not because we agree with them…but because many of us don’t.

If not, then they are not safeguards at all…including when someone proposes a supposedly pressing practical problem that their pragmatic “quick fix” will address, whether in the short or medium term. That’s the reason for the, “Well, golly gosh! I must be on to something!” effect you have stumbled upon. And I’d suggest if David Garrett had paid attention if and when they were covering that in his law lectures, he would have mentioned it a long time ago…

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/12/national_front_gets_most_votes_in_regional_elections.html#comments
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December 12, 2015 3:44pm
Manolo

The absurdity of it:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-climatechange-summit-space-idUSKBN0TT33A20151210

Scientists from the United States, Japan, and China are racing to perfect satellite technology that could one day measure greenhouse gas emissions from space, potentially transforming the winner into the world’s first climate cop.

Monitoring a single country’s net emissions from above could not only become an important tool to establish whether it had met its promises to slow global warming, a point of contention at climate talks in Paris, but also help emitters to pinpoint the sources of greenhouse gases more quickly and cheaply.
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December 12, 2015 4:06pm
Manolo

Elation among progressives and (il)liberals:
http://polling.reuters.com/#poll/TR130/filters/PARTY_ID_:2/dates/20151206-20151211/type/day
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December 12, 2015 4:08pm
Manolo

Admonishing (and berating) a coward US administration:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/11/uk-defence-secretary-michael-fallon-calls-war-on-isis-slow

Britain’s defence secretary has expressed frustration at the “agonisingly slow” progress of the war against Islamic State and declined to offer a timetable for its defeat.
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December 12, 2015 4:16pm
Shawn Herles

Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

“It is simply false to declare that jihadists represent the “tiny few extremists” who sully the reputation of an otherwise peace-loving and tolerant Muslim faith. In reality, the truth is far more troubling — that jihadists represent the natural and inevitable outgrowth of a faith that is given over to hate on a massive scale, with hundreds of millions of believers holding views that Americans would rightly find revolting. Not all Muslims are hateful, of course, but so many are that it’s not remotely surprising that the world is wracked by wave after wave of jihadist violence. To understand the Muslim edifice of hate, imagine it as a pyramid — with broadly-shared bigotry at the bottom, followed by stair steps of escalating radicalism — culminating in jihadist armies that in some instances represent a greater share of their respective populations than does the active-duty military in the United States. The base of the pyramid, the most broadly held hatred in the Islamic world, is anti-Semitism, with staggering numbers of Muslims expressing anti-Jewish views. In 2014, the Anti-Defamation League released the results of polling 53,100 people in 102 countries for evidence of anti-Semitic attitudes and beliefs. The numbers from the majority-Muslim world are difficult to believe for those steeped in politically correct rhetoric about Islam. A full 74 percent of North African and Middle Eastern residents registered anti-Semitic beliefs, including 92 percent of Iraqis, a whopping 69 percent of relatively secular Turks, and 74 percent of Saudis.

The next level of the pyramid is Muslim commitment to deadly Islamic supremacy. In multiple Muslim nations, overwhelming majorities of Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy or blasphemy. Collectively, this means that hundreds of millions of men and women support capital punishment for the exercise of the basic human rights of freedom of expression and free exercise of religion.

Moving beyond Islamic supremacy to the next step of the pyramid, enormous numbers of Muslims are terrorist sympathizers. It is still stunning to see how popular Osama bin Laden was early last decade, and even as his popularity plunged (as he grew weaker and more isolated), his public approval remained disturbingly high.

But what about ISIS — the world’s most savage and deadly terror organization? The latest polling data show that while a majority of Muslims reject ISIS, extrapolating from the populations of polled countries alone shows that roughly 50 million people express sympathy for a terrorist army that burns prisoners alive, throws gay men from buildings, and beheads political opponents. In Pakistan a horrifying 72 percent couldn’t bring themselves to express an unfavorable view of ISIS

It is from this fertile soil that jihadists grow. And here the numbers decisively belie the “few extremists” rhetoric. In Iran alone, the Revolutionary Guard represents a proportionate share of the population similar to the combined strength of the active-duty Army and Marines here in the United States. Between Boko Haram, the Al-Nusra front, ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Yemeni militias, Libyan militias, and many others, the number of active jihadists numbers in the hundreds of thousands; some estimates indicate that 100,000 are fighting in Syria alone.

Simply put, America’s leaders actively deceive the American people about the sheer scale of Muslim hatred and commitment to jihad. Rather than tell us the truth, the Obama administration and the media aristocracy constantly lecture Americans about discrimination, apparently believing that only their scolding keeps the great redneck masses at bay. Telling us the truth won’t send Americans on an anti-Muslim killing spree. Instead, it will make us no more radical than Egypt’s president, who briefly made headlines earlier this year after calling for a “revolution” in Islam and decrying faith traditions that he admitted had been “sacralized over the centuries.” Telling the truth can demonstrate the scale of the problem and at least begin the process of convincing the American people that there is no quick fix, that the defense of the nation will require courage and resolve over the long term. Islam has a problem.”

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428146/more-than-few-islamic-extremists
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December 12, 2015 4:56pm
sam green

@Shawn Herles 3:23

“Being a Liberal is not an excuse for ignoring reality Griff.”

The reality you live by seems to be drawn from far far right propaganda blogs and articles and is centred around hatred and deliberate misdirection. Oh how you are being played. Or maybe that hatred is deep seated. Therapy could help.
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December 12, 2015 4:59pm
Andrei

Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

The headline of Shawn Herles’ 4:56 pm effort

Followed by a hate filled anti Muslim diatribe
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December 12, 2015 5:22pm
Reid

Therapy could help.

But probably wouldn’t.

Followed by a hate filled anti Muslim diatribe

Yes. It occurred as I was reading it that if one was confused about Jews as Captain Bananas is about Muslims you could substitute Jew for Muslim and goy for whenever it refers to some group Muslims apparently hate and you could pretty much go word for word right through the whole thing and it’d make perfect sense, when we survey the world we live in.

But then neocons are Nazis, so what do we expect.
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December 12, 2015 5:23pm
Odakyu-sen

Kimbo,

“We have hard won (in New Zealand’s case uncodified) constitutional safeguards that must operate at a time like this. Muslims deserve those benefits not because we agree with them…but because many of us don’t.”

You may find that a lot of these constitutional safeguards were written on the assumption that the other party would “play fair” and share the same cultural values as yourself.

Well, what happens if they don’t? You must never forget that all laws are guidelines (until better laws can replace them) and must be interpreted according to the situation. Otherwise you become less human and more robotic: only able to see in terms of black or white, and blindly complying with laws with no regard for their intended purpose.

The State’s first duty is to protect its citizens. It must do all that is necessary to ensue this.

Welcome to realpolitik, Kimbo. (It’s a dirty game, but it must be played.)
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December 12, 2015 5:26pm
sam green

Maybe this guy has a point?

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-12-09/british-soldier-who-lost-leg-in-iraq-issues-powerful-message-to-those-who-think-he-should-hate-muslims/
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December 12, 2015 5:36pm
Reid

The US aristocracy’s control over all the mainstream ‘news’ is ironclad – and this includes the political magazines, such as National Review, and The Nation; as well as ‘intellectual’ magazines, such as Harpers and The Atlantic. American ‘news’ media stifle democracy in America; they’re not part of democracy, in America. They’re like poison that’s presented as being ‘medicine’ instead. Suckers don’t just swallow it; they come back for more…

No surprises there. Not on who the suckers are nor on the mags they lap up like a dog returning to its own vomit.

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/12/10/how-the-public-get-suckered.html
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December 12, 2015 5:40pm
nasska

There is only one way to refute the conclusions of the article cited by Shawn @ 4.56pm since it is an explanatory piece for the results of the ADL Global 100 survey. You must show that the survey is loaded or bogus:

….”This study, known as the ADL GLOBAL 100, consists of surveys of the general public in each of the following 101 countries plus the Palestinian Territories in the West Bank & Gaza.”…..

…..”The data is a result of 53,100 total interviews among citizens aged 18 and over, across 101 countries and the West Bank & Gaza. Expected margin of sampling error for the weighted global average is +0.97%, for the countries/territories surveyed with n=500 interviews it is +4.4% and for countries sampled with n=1,000 interviews it is +3.2%. The margin of error is higher for sub-groups within each geography.

Interviews were conducted via landline telephones, mobile phones and face-to-face discussions in 96 languages (including many dialects and pidgin/creole versions). “……

For a full disclosure: http://global100.adl.org/about#aboutAntiIndex

You may well believe that cuddling Muslims is the way forward but you owe it to yourselves, your families & your society to at least ensure that everyone is made aware of the facts.. The Western people do not deserve to be deceived in the fashion of PC in Rotherdam or Hilary Clinton’s refusal to acknowledge the danger Islamic immigration poses to the USA.
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December 12, 2015 5:59pm
Reid

For those who hallucinate the West hasn’t been interfering in Russia, here’s a Madsen report that lays bare the Soros-CIA connections and their operations in Russia since during the days of Gorbachev.

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/12/09/soros-and-his-cia-friends-targeted-ussr-russia-1987.html
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December 12, 2015 6:05pm
stephieboy

Reid and Andrei ( and Manolo )

Some good tidings of great cheer,

Iraqi Kurds refute Russia’s claims on Turkey-Daesh oil trade, say tankers belong to KRG,

“The recent allegations put forth by Russia on Turkey – Daesh oil trade, which also involved Syrian and Iraqi Kurds, were denied by Iraq’s Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) officials.

Sherko Jawdat, the chairman of the KRG Parliament’s Energy Committee, said on Thursday that the oil tankers shown in the aerial photos and footage presented by Russia as evidence of the alleged trade are in fact carrying oil from the KRG to Ceyhan terminal in southern Turkey.

Russia’s Defense Ministry earlier alleged that oil tankers loaded in Daesh-held territories are passing from territories controlled by the KRG and PYD to reach Turkey. As the arch-enemies of Daesh terror organization who suffered the most casualties in battles, both the KRG and PYD are receiving military training, ammunition and arms from both the U.S. led coalition and Russia. The claims came right after a Russian SU-24 bomber breaching Turkey’s airspace was shot down by Turkish jets on November 24.

Speaking to Turkey’s state-run Anadolu Agency, Jawdat said the tankers belong to the KRG and Russia’s claims are far from being true.
“Our Natural Resources Ministry has earlier announced that hundreds of tankers are carrying oil from KRG to Turkey. Oil is being shipped to Turkey with tankers and it is not a secret” Jawdat said.

Furthermore, the KRG spokesman Safin Dzayi said his government is saddened by the Russian accusations, and added that the oil flowing from the KRG to Turkey does not belong to Daesh, who the Iraqi Kurds are actively fighting. “Russia’s explanations are based on wrong sources. We strongly reject Russian accusations,” he said…”

http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/2015/12/03/iraqi-kurds-refute-russias-claims-on-turkey-daesh-oil-trade-say-tankers-belong-to-krg

Oh dear, the lying Russian media and their surrogates ( Global Research , Zero Hedge , PCRs etc ) caught out yet again.
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December 12, 2015 6:16pm
Shawn Herles

Kimbo claims,

“And that’s an inverting of the burden of responsibility that I’ve called David Garrett out over…which he continues to essentially ignore. We have hard won (in New Zealand’s case uncodified) constitutional safeguards that must operate at a time like this. Muslims deserve those benefits not because we agree with them…but because many of us don’t.

If not, then they are not safeguards at all”

There are two major problems with this.

First, and perhaps most importantly, DG was talking about stopping Muslim immigration, not stripping Muslims who are already citizens of their rights. So either Kimbo did not understand what DG was saying, which seems unlikely, or he is deliberately misrepresenting what DG said.

Secondly, there is NO constitutional right to immigrate to NZ, or any other country that I am aware of, with the one possible exception being Israel’s right to return policy. So stopping Muslim immigration does not remove any New Zealand citizens legal safeguards, Muslims included.

So Kimbo seems to be deliberately misrepresenting DG’s argument, and inventing non existent rights out of thin air.

I repeat; Stopping any further Muslim immigration does not violate anyone’s rights, and does not remove any legal safeguards from Muslims who are already citizens of NZ. There is no legal or constitutional right to immigrate to NZ.
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December 12, 2015 6:17pm
mikenmild

You don’t think any legislation prohibiting the immigration of Muslims would be a breach of the Bill of Rights and Human Rights Act?
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December 12, 2015 6:21pm
Kimbo

@ Odakyu-sen

Kimbo,

“We have hard won (in New Zealand’s case uncodified) constitutional safeguards that must operate at a time like this. Muslims deserve those benefits not because we agree with them…but because many of us don’t.”

You may find that a lot of these constitutional safeguards were written on the assumption that the other party would “play fair” and share the same cultural values as yourself.

Really?? Care to name some? In many cases the “constitutional safeguards” exist to protect/limit the power of the state against those who do notabide by the acceptable (to quote you) “cultural values”

For example, our cultural values are that people do not steal, kill, and lie under oath. Yet our justice system still grants certain rights to those who may eventually be found guilty of those crimes (writ of habeas corpus, right to a lawyer, right not to self-incriminate/speak to the police, the right not to testify, the right of appeal, etc. We don’t compromise “the rules” even though the “criminal underclass” have historically done a lot more “harm” (and will continue to do so for likely…forever!) than any Muslim living in our midst. Look at the billions we spend on our justice and penal systems! Yet we don’t throw out our constitutional safeguards and allow torture/police brutality, detention without trial or legal representation, no right of appeal, etc, in the interests of expedient…realpolitik. This is no different, no matter what a few hysterics are saying about the supposedly overwhelming threat of jihadism.

Well, what happens if they don’t?

We use robust surveillance and law-enforcement within the existing tried-and-true constitutional guidelines and protections.

You must never forget that all laws are guidelines (until better laws can replace them) and must be interpreted according to the situation. Otherwise you become less human and more robotic: only able to see in terms of black or white, and blindly complying with laws with no regard for their intended purpose.

Not sure what you mean by “interpreted according to the situation”. As I understand our law, it is applied

1. according to the letter of the law
2. and the intent of the framers of the original legislation
3. and in accordance with legal precedence determined in the courts
4. and in accordance with the facts of the case.
5. (and I think this is especially relevant for the matter we are discussing) with no special privilege or penalty to anyone on the basis of their race, ethnicity…or religion.

That’ll do me.

The State’s first duty is to protect its citizens. It must do all that is necessary to ensue this.

Indeed, especially against those whose threat is especially subtle, and, in the event of a purported “crisis” (which may well be nothing of the sort, instead it is simply what nations must face and negotiate in a complex world)…would take away our liberty while claiming to defend it.

Welcome to realpolitik, Kimbo. (It’s a dirty game, but it must be played.)

All of life contains elements of realpolitik. But the unique feature of modern democracy is that it is the one abiding historic example of a constitutional system whereby nations are resourced to haul themselves beyond the expediency and capricious tyranny of realpolitik. No modern constitutional democratic nation has ever fought a war against another…and it has been a system that has been transplanted into the fabric of former totalitarian and militaristic enemies, e.g, Germany, Italy, Japan. As Ronald Reagan said, it is the “best hope of man on Earth”, and if it is to be defended…then it cannot be compromised. Because if you do, you tear at the very fabric of all our freedoms.

Always a pleasure interacting with you, Odakyu-sen
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December 12, 2015 6:24pm
Shawn Herles

In response to Sam.

I don’t hate anyone, Muslims included. I just have no illusions that Islamic culture and Western culture are compatible.

I love my brother in law, but we don’t get along, so I would not live with him. That does not mean I hate him.

Being concerned that not enough is being done to fight Islamic terrorism is not hate. Concluding that Islam and the West are radically different cultures with different values, and that therefore we should probably be skeptical of large scale Islamic immigration, is also not hate.

You will have to do better than that Sam. If all you have is liberal-left name calling, then you have nothing at all. That kind of dishonest and shallow sloganeering may go down well at the Standard, but it won’t fly here.

This is why I challenged you to name who I supposedly hate, and point out an example from anything I have said, and you could not. Instead you claimed that you “chose not to.” YEAH RIGHT.
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December 12, 2015 6:24pm
nasska

…..”the Bill of Rights and Human Rights Act?”….

Worthless drivel written & passed into law to ensure the prosperity of Chen Palmer. Both could safely be discarded tomorrow.
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December 12, 2015 6:26pm
stephieboy

Shawn Herles, I think you could be wrong in term of international law and there various treaties on human rights we are signatory to .Stopping and discriminating against Muslim immigration does in terms of our international obligations I would say . Would you say the same in respect of Jews, Yazidis , Hispanics etc ???

Any how the 600 Syrian refugees are coming here whether you like it or not so be prepared to ensure you have selected the right size tin foil hat . If you don’t like it then get down to the ballot box next elections.

BTW relieved that Trump is contemplating a nuclear option for the Middle East ?
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December 12, 2015 6:28pm
mikenmild

You don’t think they just codify how reasonable people should behave, nasska?
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December 12, 2015 6:28pm
Shawn Herles

“You don’t think any legislation prohibiting the immigration of Muslims would be a breach of the Bill of Rights and Human Rights Act?”

No mm, as far as the Bill of Rights is concerned. The Bill of Rights are rights accorded to New Zealand citizens or permanent residents. They do not apply to someone in Syria who may be thinking about immigrating here.

As to the HRA, I could care less as I consider it a violation of constitutional rights to begin with. But even with the HRA, it applies only to NZ citizens and permanent residents, not to citizens of Syria.

So, the short answer is no.
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December 12, 2015 6:29pm
mikenmild

I think you should do some research before you make such stupid statements.
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December 12, 2015 6:32pm
Shawn Herles

“You don’t think they just codify how reasonable people should behave, nasska?”

Rubbish. The HRA codifies how Liberals want other people to behave. There is much in the HRA which is not reasonable at all, just political correctness.
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December 12, 2015 6:32pm
nasska

What I do think Mike is that they are of zero value to anyone actually born in NZ. The BOR & the HRA merely add another level of crap that protects people who the country could do well without.

I accept that it is a personal opinion & may not find universal favour but there we have it.
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December 12, 2015 6:35pm
Shawn Herles

Ahh, milkey’s usual response when he is losing an argument. “Your stupid.”

That’s the intellectual level of the Liberal-Left for you.
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December 12, 2015 6:36pm
mikenmild

I think you will find that New Zealand’s immigration laws need to be consistent with the Bill of Rights.
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December 12, 2015 6:40pm
Shawn Herles

At the end of the day, the responsibility of the State is to it’s own citizens, not to foreigners. NZ can and already does discriminate against potential immigrants for a number of perfectly legal reasons. A policy against further Islamic immigration does not remove any existing legal rights from Muslims who are already citizens.

At worst all it does is violate a Liberal-Left dip shit ideological principle that we must never, ever discriminate.

Dinner’s up! 🙂
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December 12, 2015 6:43pm
Andrei

Reid and Andrei ( and Manolo )…..

The first casualty of war is truth Stephiiebot

But even if your tale is true it doesn’t alter the fact that oil stolen from Iraq and Syria is being transported to Turkey and processed in Government owned oil refineries so while a dumb bunny such as yourself might be misled the essential truth remains the same
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December 12, 2015 6:45pm
Kimbo

@ Odakyu-sen

Further to my post above, we have every right to bar from the privilege of migration to our fair land, those who

1. pose an individual security threat
2. Have insufficient skills, local language ability, an existing medical condition or means of support
3. have a criminal record or a record of moral and/or financial failure

…but, as with our own population, we do not apply an individual test of race, gender, ethnicity or religion. We have in the past…against Chinese, and it is a grievous stain on our history….when we did not act in accordance with what our constitution implied…because we decided a certain race or religion would not fit in and would do us harm. Other nations – usually theocratic dictatorships who will do what they want – are not robust enough to handle pluralism and the neutrality of the state in matters of race and religion. We are. Muslims, along with Hindus, South Africans, Russians, Japanese, Peruvians and Tongans et al are free to get in line, and gain admittance if

1. they fulfil the criteria applied evenly to everyone, and
2. they fit within any overall immigration quotas we choose to set

If not, then the jihadists have won.
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December 12, 2015 6:45pm
nasska

From: http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/publications-archived/2002/the-non-discrimination-standards-for-government-and-the-public-sector-guidelines-on-how-to-apply-the-standards-and-who-is-covered-march-2002/the-new-zealand-bill-of-rights-act-overview

The Bill of Rights Act deals with aspects of the human rights of New Zealanders:

The right not to be deprived of life
The right not to be subjected to torture or cruel treatment
Electoral rights
Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
Freedom of expression
Freedom of peaceful assembly
Freedom of movement
Freedom from discrimination
Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure
The right not to be arbitrarily arrested or detained
The rights of people who are arrested or detained
Minimum standards of criminal procedure
The right to justice.

#####

Note that it refers to ‘New Zealanders”…..not economic refugees who want to bludge off us while making over our country into one of the shitholes that no longer suits their aspirations.

Also the legislation is not as far as I’m aware ‘entrenched’….it can be dumped or altered by a simple parliamentary majority.

IOW it is worthless feelgood claptrap dragged out by bleeding hearts as a reason to pursue their suicidal policies.
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December 12, 2015 6:49pm
Odakyu-sen

In the end it’s a balancing act between principles and laws on one hand, and expediency on the other. If you have ever lived in Japan you will know that decisions are often made on a “case-by-case” basis, based on the “common sense” of the party making the call. (Lawyers are rare in Japan, and the legal system moves at a glacial pace.)

Pragmatics vs. principles. What to do?

It’s good to chuck ideas around on Kiwiblog and hear different opinions on a wide range of topics. It would be a horrible world if we were all the same.

Fight the good fight, Kimbo.
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December 12, 2015 6:50pm
stephieboy

Andrei, I do hope Russia Today , Sputnik etc can find room for this in their news bulletins,

Revealed: Assad Buys Oil From ISIS

Putin claims Turkey is smuggling the terror group’s oil, but the awkward truth is his ally Assad buys more—from ISIS’s own public-private partnership.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/10/isis-is-the-con-ed-of-syria.html

I doubt it somehow !

“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”

― Anonymous
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December 12, 2015 6:52pm
mikenmild

I guess you are right, nasska. Our parliament could change the law to override our customary approach to freedom of conscience. My question then would be: when will they come for one of nasska’s rights that he is not so keen to lose?
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December 12, 2015 6:54pm
Andrei

Why would Assad buy his own oil from his mortal enemies to help fund their fight against him Stephiebot?

You are stupider than I thought
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December 12, 2015 6:58pm
mikenmild

Kareem has Trump sussed:
http://time.com/4143003/kareem-abdul-jabbar-donald-trump-isis/
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December 12, 2015 6:59pm
nasska

….”when will they come for one of nasska’s rights that he is not so keen to lose?”….

Any time they bloody well choose Mike. We simply live in the hope that it will never happen.

But if I have to live with a little doubt & worry I’m absolutely certain that I’ll not stand aside while a worthless bit of Palmer’s pap is used to flood the country with religious maniacs with a propensity for jihad & violence.
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December 12, 2015 7:00pm
Shawn Herles

Naaska is right, the Bill of Rights only applies to New Zealand citizens and permanent residents. It does not apply to people who may want to immigrate here, but are not yet citizens.

Now, if a ban on Muslim immigration actually specified Islam, that may violate the BOR and HRA, though I would like to see a legal opinion about that.

But a country of origin policy that simply barred immigration from Islamic countries would certainly not. That of course would not prevent all possible Muslim immigration, but it would be a start.

That said I am with naaska. When the violence and terrorism come to NZ, and they will, then it may well be time to change the BOR.

The HRA on the other hand should be dumped regardless. It’s only real purpose was to give homosexuals special rights.
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December 12, 2015 7:15pm
Andrei

But a country of origin policy that simply barred immigration from Islamic countries would certainly not

What about all the Malaysian students Shawn Herles?

And Indonesians – the biggest Muslim nation on the planet
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December 12, 2015 7:21pm
mikenmild

What ‘special rights’ should homosexuals lose, Shawn?
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December 12, 2015 7:25pm
Awww C-mon

Sorry if it’s been discussed already, plenty of chat today!!

But why do we have to suffer fools like this dickwad, fucking useless list MPs

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11560211
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December 12, 2015 7:38pm
Longknives

Ha Ha Hughes is going to ‘Keep Flying’ Red Peak.
It failed fucking miserably- Just like the Gweens election campaign.

I hope some Journo asks him how the Red Peak thing is going in a few years time…
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December 12, 2015 7:44pm
RF

The right and the left are separate in their beliefs and in my view can be the good guys or the bad guys.

After reading posts in the standard it is clear that the left will not be satisfied until this country is brought to its knees. In their eyes John Key is the devil.

I used to hear my late father talking about good and evil and how NZ troops fought to suppress the evil Nazis. I believe nothing has changed and evil in the guise of the left is still amongst us.

Be afraid if the left ever get back into power.
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December 12, 2015 8:21pm
Longknives

“I used to hear my late father talking about good and evil and how NZ troops fought to suppress the evil Nazis. I believe nothing has changed..”

I agree. The evil these days is that Bloodthirsty Evil Cult of ‘Islam’.
And now the NZ Islamic Leaders are crying ‘Poor Little Us’ and blaming the Crusades!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/74933515/kiwi-muslims-suffering-stigma-for-extremists-actions

Un-Fucking-Believable..
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December 12, 2015 8:30pm
mikenmild

Did some evil things happen the last time the ‘left’ was in power, RF? And what has changed since?
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December 12, 2015 8:30pm
Odakyu-sen

What happened to General Debate for December 12th?

Did Kiwiblog run out of General Debates and Pak n’Save was all sold out or something…!

It’s getting a little hot and smelly inside yesterday’s GD and I think it has passed its Use-By date.
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December 12, 2015 8:40pm
mikenmild

If DPF’s minion put up General Debate every day without fail, we might start to take it for granted.
I suppose we don’t really need a fresh thread every day. In theory, one GD thread could last indefinitely.
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December 12, 2015 8:48pm
Odakyu-sen

mikenmild,

How large do you think one GD thread could become?

(Shudder…!)

Anyway, I like to bite off the crust of a freshly baked GD every morning. One of life’s little pleasures…
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December 12, 2015 8:57pm
starboard

“Did some evil things happen the last time the ‘left’ was in power, RF? And what has changed since?”

Proof that the simpleton MM lives in a bubble on planet butthole
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December 12, 2015 9:09pm
Viking2

Australia’s federal and state leaders have issued a stark warning of growing budget pressures across all levels of government amid calls for the federal government to reset voter expectations about the health of Australia’s public finances.

Some of Australia’s top economists are predicting that the federal government’s mid-year budget update on Tuesday will show the collapse in iron ore prices and record-low wages growth will wipe billions from Commonwealth revenue. Three different analyses in the past fortnight show the federal budget deficit will be between $33 billion and $39 billion worse than expected over the next four years.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/leaders-sound-alarm-on-budget-as-economists-predict-billions-wiped-from-revenue-20151211-gllt8q.html#ixzz3u5nCbDXD
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

=================================
Problems more for NZ as well.
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December 12, 2015 9:22pm
mikenmild

Still with the anal obsession, starboard?
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December 12, 2015 9:23pm
starboard

No
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December 12, 2015 9:27pm
SGA

mikenmild at 8:48 pm

In theory, one GD thread could last indefinitely.

And instead of writing comments, we could just reference the nearly identical message above 🙂
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December 12, 2015 9:36pm
RF

Jesus H Christ. Wee precious Daniel Carter now has the former AB comic Williams as his minder over in France. Carter got knocked over on his arse during team training and obviously did not like it.

FFS toughen up Dan.

Might run a book on how long it will take for him to be injured.
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December 12, 2015 9:44pm
RF

Jon Gadsby has died tonight. RIP Jon… You made me laugh during sad times.
7 1
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December 12, 2015 10:15pm
starboard

Oh shit, he was one of my favorites, esp in McPhail and Gadsby. Grog must have got him.

RIP funny man.
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December 12, 2015 10:19pm
RF

starboard. 10.19am. It was cancer. I spoke to him recently at a funeral and he appeared OK.
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December 12, 2015 10:23pm
Kimbo

@ RF

Jon Gadsby has died tonight. RIP Jon… You made me laugh during sad times.

Jeez, Wayne!
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December 12, 2015 10:23pm
starboard

Oh shit again..didn’t realise he had the big C..poor bugga.
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December 12, 2015 10:26pm
Manolo

A flawed and leaky system allows barbarians to enter the country:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/us/san-bernardino-attacks-us-visa-process-tashfeen-maliks-remarks-on-social-media-about-jihad-were-missed.html

Tashfeen Malik, who with her husband carried out the massacre in San Bernardino, Calif., passed three background checks by American immigration officials as she moved to the United States from Pakistan. But none uncovered what Ms. Malik had made little effort to hide — that she talked openly on social media about her views on violent jihad.

She said she supported it. And she said she wanted to be a part of it.
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December 13, 2015 7:22am
Manolo

Delaying and procrastinating to help Clinton:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2015/12/state-department-finds-1300-new-records-on-anwar-al-awlaki-216697

The State Department has belatedly discovered about 1,300 emails relating to deceased Islamic cleric Anwar Al-Awlaki in official accounts belonging to top aides to former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, more than four years after a conservative group requested all such records, a new court filing reports.
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December 13, 2015 7:44am

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