General Debate 28 June 2016

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Captain Mainwaring

Finlayson’s justification for the plea-bargain in the tragic Moko case seems to be based on the possibility that either one or both the perpetrators wouldn’t have been found guilty of anything if they’d gone for a murder conviction.

Is he saying that the system is stacked in favour of the taxpayer-funded car-boot lawyers who choose to defend these monsters?

Is he saying that the Crown Prosecutor hasn’t got enough teeth?

Is he saying that the Police cases are usually so full of holes that there is a good chance that they won’t hold together?

Or is he saying all three?

Whatever he’s saying, there seems to be an urgent need to fix the system in order to get the law on the side of the good guys.
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June 28, 2016 8:01am
flipper

The elephant in the room is obvious to the (deliberately blind) MSM.
The elephant is obvious:
• To the policing/judicial/corrections industrial complex;
• To the idiot marchers who parade down streets when they should be working;
• To every do-gooding hand wringer and bureaucrat;
• To every Parliamentarian, barring the few fools whose choose not to see.
The elephant in the room is not Asian, or PI, or Caucasian.
The elephant in the room is privileged.
The elephant in the room is a species protected by the wimpish PC Caucasian brigade;

Why???

Because the elephant in the room is Maori.
And….
The elephant in the room is protected by the Maori “brownstrocracy”.
And ….
The Brownstocracy will not deal with the elephant because they have to deal with more important issues like
• Idiotic powhiris
• Idiotic karakias
• Idiotic Te Reo – a babble comparable to, but not as useful as, Inuit or the esoteric Asian roots of Hungarian.
Oh, did I forget something?
Yes. That’s right. The more important issues are land, fishing and money. Lots and lots of money.

But it is racist to say that, is it not?

Well on that basis I am racist and proud of it.
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June 28, 2016 8:08am
nickb

Bahahahaha

https://www.rt.com/business-projects/348345-richest-people-losses-brexit/
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June 28, 2016 8:10am
Huevon

So the US Supreme Court has once again sided with proponents of the horrific and barbaric practice of abortion. Even the reasonable requirements – reasonable only in the context of an insane regime that permits the murder of unborn children in the first place – that abortionists be qualified doctors and provide hospital grade facilities for their godless slaughter must be stuck down. Will the good people of Texas defy this immoral decision? I certainly hope so.
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June 28, 2016 8:12am
Keeping Stock

@ Captain Mainwaring – what Finlayson was saying was that the Crown may have struggled to prove murderous intent, a vital component in getting a conviction for murder:

Attorney-General Christopher Finlayson said that accepting the manslaughter pleas and admitted facts meant prosecutors could push for a sentence that reflected what had happened to Moko.

“Without the guilty pleas, the full details … may not have otherwise come to light.

“Based on the evidence available for trial, there was a substantial risk that one or both of the defendants would not be convicted of the legal charge of murder or manslaughter.”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11664324

If there was a risk that one or both defendant may have walked free if a murder charge proceeded to trial, then undoubtably the Crown did the right thing be accepting a guilty plea to manslaughter.

I also suggest that people read Justice Katz’s sentencing notes, which are already online – https://t.co/9zNRY8cBP6 – both defendants have significant mental health issues, and this may have been used by the defence to get the jury to agree to a lesser charge, or even an acquittal.

I commend Katz J for doing her best to come up with a sentence that both complied with the Sentencing Act and reflected the gravity of the crime. I am a mere bush lawyer, but I believe she struck a pretty good balance, and I would be surprised if counsel for either defendant appealed the length of the sentence.

Let’s look on the bright side; at least the killers of Moko will do some serious jail time where they will be watching their backs every minute of every hour of every day. Contrast that with the killer(s) of the Kahui twins who, ten years on is/are still walking free, and possibly fathering more future victims.
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June 28, 2016 8:13am
Up North

Captain Mainwaring

Regarding the Moko case can I pass comment having had experience in the Justice system over many years.

I have the utmost respect and support for this whole sad story but please consider the following thoughts based on my experience. Where pleas are accepted to a lesser charge such as manslaughter when we all know that it was murder there are always factors that the public may not be aware of. Sometimes there is not the evidence available to secure a conviction for murder. You need to prove that an individual committed the physical act or omission with the necessary intent. Sometimes we can draw that conclusion but cant prove it. Expecially when we have two people with the opportunity who are blaming each other and no other witnesses. Think of the Kahui twins. No one was convicted of anything serious despite the greatest efforts of the Police and even though we all know what happened
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June 28, 2016 8:16am
EAD

Watching out of the corner of my eye, Iceland vs. England and find myself surpisingly rooting for the Icelanders.

Something refreshing about 11 Viking Warriors representing the Icelandic nation facing down a team of 3 Englishman + a bunch of paid up mercenaries from bongobongo and God knows where.

The collective passion of the no name Icelandic team fighting for their country are thoroughly outclassing the multimillionaire Premier League stars at the moment. 2-1 to Iceland at the moment.
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June 28, 2016 8:19am
Kimbo

@ Captain Mainwaring

Is he saying that the system is stacked in favour of the taxpayer-funded car-boot lawyers who choose to defend these monsters?

Is he saying that the Crown Prosecutor hasn’t got enough teeth?

Is he saying that the Police cases are usually so full of holes that there is a good chance that they won’t hold together?

Or is he saying all three?…

None of the above – the Crown likely couldn’t prove…intent to kill. However, while “murder” and “manslaughter” may be just more than words, nonetheless the judge took into account the severity of the actions in his sentencing.

Oh, yes, and unless the accused gets a good lawyer arguing their case to the best of their ability, then justice isn’t served – including for Moko. Not necessarily a popular point of view at a time like this, but nonetheless there it is.
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June 28, 2016 8:22am
Lucia Maria

Brexit: Global sharemarkets continue to tumble
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June 28, 2016 8:22am
Tarquin North

After watching the usual suspects doing the usual hand wringing about Moko on T.V last night I have to ask, why do we keep paying trash to breed? I will probably cop a heap of down ticks for this, but at least I’m asking. That’s more than the so called leaders at these marches will ever do.
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June 28, 2016 8:33am
Nostalgia-NZ

Some of the things Finlayson said were already obvious from the time the mother referenced mental health issues of the couple. The Judgement is now on line, the highest manslaughter sentence ever in the case of the death of a child. There would have possibly been arguments about diminished responsibility because of depression and in the other case because of schizophrenia. Take a look at the photo of Shailer where she gives the impression of a low functioning mentality. The case notes show that Haerewa by the time of speaking with probation was denying the crime and blaming Shailer. if it’s accepted that the police summary of facts is correct it should be remembered that may not have been admitted as evidence because it could have been part of agreed submissions to the SG on a plea bargain. Terrible to read that a 3 year old boy could become isolated by violence in society with no one to turn to, or no one other than the offenders having access to him and to some kind of sanity in the madness that was going on. The Court observed that the couple were good parents to their own 4 children and noted the extra pressure of 2 youngsters in the household. None of that is an excuse but at least it’s part of the fabric as to where things broke down for that little boy. It may also be a reference to how schizophrenia and depression can fail to be managed in a couple that set a single mind set against a child: they acted insanely, couldn’t stop, were frightened of the consequences and only near the end one of them, perhaps the more culpable, called in the authorities.
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June 28, 2016 8:33am
Keeping Stock

@ Lucia Maria – it sounds as though the English footballers are about to do a Brexit of their own, which will result in further misery and blood-letting across England.
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June 28, 2016 8:34am
Nostalgia-NZ

Meanwhile Cameron is taking leadership of the Brexit result in order to bring calm. He’s pointing out that article 50 has not been actioned and wont be until preparations and negotiations are settled. If it were NZ I think we would have seen a quicker reaction from JK and probably anticipatory preparation from cabinet.
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June 28, 2016 8:37am
stephieboy

EAD, the inclusion of Marcus Rashford and Daniel Sturridge in the England squad too disturbing for you ?
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June 28, 2016 8:40am
Keeping Stock

Well said Nostalgia – one thing that emerged yesterday seems to be escaping all those people who have gone into bat for Moko’s mother:

Ron Mansfield, defence lawyer for Shailer, argued his client was under mental stress after herself being a victim of domestic violence and said there was “no issues” with the care of the other children in their home.

Mansfield also claimed Shailer’s mental state was known by Moko’s mother.

“This was known by Moko’s mother as she had previously supplied her with cannabis,” he said.

“In summary, she does have a mental illness, perhaps post traumatic stress disorder.”

“Her actions are entirely attributable to her mental illness, not because she is evil.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/81477608/moko-rangitoheriris-killers-david-haerewa-and-tania-shailer-sentenced-to-17-years-prison

That comment is not intended as victim-blaming, and I cannot imagine what Ms Dally-Paki has gone through since Moko’s death. Nor though can I imagine a level of dysfunction where it is seen as quite normal to supply drugs to someone who is looking after your children.
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June 28, 2016 8:44am
stephieboy

flipper ,

“To the idiot marchers who parade down streets when they should be working;”

Pathetic !

When have you usefully got off your butt and keyboards and engaged in any worthwhile protest action ?

Forgetting that your elephant in the room ” Maori “both helped organised and participated in the March .
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June 28, 2016 8:49am
Lucia Maria

EAD,

Something refreshing about 11 Viking Warriors representing the Icelandic nation facing down a team of 3 Englishman + a bunch of paid up mercenaries from bongobongo and God knows where.

All, except one, of the English players was born in England. The one that wasn’t was born in a Commonwealth country – Jamaica.
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June 28, 2016 8:50am
holysheet

Not often I agree with our little pony, but on TV this morning she asked why it wasn’t put before the jury and let them decide if it was murder. If I was on that jury and had all the facts put in front of me, then these feral scum would have been found guilty.
But no, the justice system is gun shy over the Kahiui debacle, and cannot take the risk.
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June 28, 2016 8:53am
stephieboy

Lucia Maria , not good enough. Must all be all of pure Anglo Saxon Celtic stock !
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June 28, 2016 8:54am
Hugh Pavletich

Mervyn King says Brexit does not mean job cuts … UK Express

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683869/Mervyn-King-Brexit-Project-Fear-Remain-camp-EU-referendum

FORMER Bank of England governor has said Britain’s finance ministry was put in a difficult position after making exaggerated claims about the economic risks of leaving the EU. … read more via hyperlink above …
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June 28, 2016 8:55am
Odakyu-sen

The markets will bounce back.

Any moment now.

…

…

… !
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June 28, 2016 8:57am
Yoza

Oh dear, England 1 – Iceland 2
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June 28, 2016 8:57am
niggly

@Holysheet – just goes to prove there is nothing in-between the ears of that little pony if she is still arguing the point (the next day) that the Moko case should have gone to a full trial. Finlayson gave a good explanation why, as outlined by others here on KB!

The Little Pony sums up the current Labour Party very well – platitudes and anti-this and that rhetoric – but nothing of substance!
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June 28, 2016 9:00am
cmm

@stephieboy : “any worthwhile protest action”

There is no such thing.

Protesting, particularly the social justice warrior kind, is never worthwhile. It just makes the protesters feel good about themselves, but it achieves nothing.

If you think the Springbok tour protests changed South African politics then you’re severely deluded. It did make Minto and his mates feel smug about themselves though.

The Windies cricketers who travelled to South Africa and played cricket there achieved far more in breaking down apartheid than Minto and his rabble did.

Likewise, the protests against child abuse in NZ will achieve nothing because they don’t focus on the real problem: calling a spade a spade. It isn’t John Key bashing these kids. It is shit parents and shit communities that are enabled by hand-outs.
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June 28, 2016 9:01am
straya

I pity any football loving, Remainer members of the U.K. Labour Party right now. They must be on the verge of slitting their wrists.
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June 28, 2016 9:02am
RalphT

Straya, yes the wailing and gnashing of teeth following the defeat by Iceland will make the reaction to the Brexit vote look rather ho-hum. Brexit was important; this is critical.
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June 28, 2016 9:06am
jcuk

What Priority? 16 million being raised for some Art Centre in Whangarei, 11 million already raised thanks to generous Kiwis, while homeless sleep in the streets.
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June 28, 2016 9:06am
alex Masterley

Yoza,
Brexit II,
An English friend with whom I play indoor soccer was last night was very down on the possiblity of Iceland beating England. I should have taken his prescience as guide and put some money on that outcome.
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June 28, 2016 9:06am
Odakyu-sen

flipper,

“The elephant in the room is a species protected by the wimpish PC Caucasian brigade.”

I strongly suspect that the East Asians of Auckland (growing in political power)…

– Are not wimpish
– Are not PC
– Are not Caucasian
– Are not a brigade (but are a legion).

I would be concerned for the future if my livelihood depended on Caucasian guilt.
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June 28, 2016 9:07am
Griff

Nor though can I imagine a level of dysfunction where it is seen as quite normal to supply drugs to someone who is looking after your children.

Going after the alcohol industry KS?
Many kids are broken by dealers peddling alcohol before they are even born.
Fetal alcohol syndrome is responsible for many of the feral lives we see reported .
But that’s Ok ..EH. because it is your poison of choice never mind the collateral effects on society.
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June 28, 2016 9:08am
Fairfacts Media

I have just been reading Rachel Smalley’s piece on Brexit.
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/kpmg-early-edition/opinion/rachel-smalley-brexit-has-been-a-failure-of-democracy/
What a tirade of leftist lies.
As someone who has closely followed the Brexit debate, I can assure you that no-one ever used the phrase ‘Britain For the British’ – at least not among the mainstream groups.
Nigel Farage did not, neither did the UKIP-aligned leave. EU campaign group, or even the party itself.
Vote Leave did not say it, especially its main men Boris Johnson and Michael Gove.
I doubt the Labour party supporting Leavers Gisela Stuart and Kate Hoey used it either.
We have seen a tide or Remanian lies and hyperbole,
We have seen the Remanians launch a tirade of abuse and hate against the Leavers.
Calling them racist is just part of it.
But the plebs, those ignorant peasants, have had enough.
And it is partly thanks to the sneering and bleating of such leftists, many people decided to Vote Leave,
It is the Smalleys who helped create Brexit, through their propagandising and lies,
This amateurish hack should be ashamed of herself.
Unless, she can say where she got her comment from.
The BNP or Britain First might have said it, but certainly UKIP, who are not Far Right as she claims, will not have made such a comment.
And most certainly Vote Leave won’t have said it either.
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June 28, 2016 9:08am
Elaycee

Keeping Stock: …what Finlayson was saying was that the Crown may have struggled to prove murderous intent, a vital component in getting a conviction for murder…

Finlayson also said on TV last night that a murder charge may have failed because (in the event the accused did not take the stand) the prosecution would have to rely on the testimony of two children to gain a conviction for murder.

Not a nice thought….
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June 28, 2016 9:09am
stephieboy

cmm, Nelson Mandela in the Robben Island Prison at the time described the news of the 1981 protest as a a beacon of hope as if the sun had come out,

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/1981-springbok-tour/impact-of-the-tour

The rest is history ,

http://www.history.com/topics/apartheid
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June 28, 2016 9:10am
Hajji

Another day.

Another opportunity for the university educated children of the hippy generation to corrupt and betray the western world.
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June 28, 2016 9:10am
RF

flipper. 8.08am.

You have nailed it by proving there is an elephant in the room. Only one comment at this time and that was a negative one. I doubt if anything is going to change and your concerns will be still be discussed 100 years from now.
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June 28, 2016 9:11am
Keeping Stock

Quite so Elaycee (and holysheet above). The Crown can only do its best with the set of facts it has, and I suggest it would have been highly unlikely that either Shailer or Haerawa would have gone on the stand (as is their legal right) given that they are both highly unlikeable individuals who would have left a negative impression on jurors.
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June 28, 2016 9:13am
waikatogirl

Willie Jackson was adamant yesterday that child abuse and killing of children is not a maori issue.

He then said the answer to the terrible care and abuse of children is government funding for agencies, such as his, that works with disfunctional maori families.

Until Maori leaders acknowledge that abuse and killing tiny childen IS A MAORI ISSUE, nothing will improve.
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June 28, 2016 9:15am
Inandout

Merkel the Mad has indeed lost the plot. To force all the differing cultures in Europe into one mould would be insane.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-German-French-European-superstate-Brexit
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June 28, 2016 9:15am
MT_Tinman

A quote from the Stuff.co.nz article http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/81519401/city-held-to-ransom-by-boy-racers-small-community-fed-up

“Isn’t it such a sad thing that we are being held to ransom by young people using our public roadways for private use?”

How awful!

Young people driving on public roads, accelerating up steep hills.

What awful people these drivers must be. Don’t they know people have built/bought houses close to those roads?

Don’t they understand that those people expect road users to bow to their wishes and it’s not on for these legitimate but ignorant road users not to respect their right not to have noise-deadening materials in those houses?
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June 28, 2016 9:16am
eszett

England is taking the Brexit very seriously.
Well done, Iceland!
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June 28, 2016 9:16am
jcuk

We know the Left are muppets but Twyford on a rail link to Ak airport. ‘Heavy’ is ‘only’ a billion more than ‘light’ urrgh!
Light can run through streets saving the disruption to property that ‘Heavy’ is certain to cause, short of a ‘skyway’ as Vancouver picked.
[Skyway on stilts across the city]
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June 28, 2016 9:19am
Kimbo

@ flipper

• Idiotic Te Reo – a babble comparable to, but not as useful as, Inuit or the esoteric Asian roots of Hungarian.

Hmm. While I don’t agree with you about the value of the Maori language, it was interesting that on the radio advertisements Garth McVicar put out for the “March for Moko”, his pronunciation of the little fellas name was not very good Te Reo. Sounded like ‘Moko’ as in ‘smoko’, not ‘Mawkaw’…but then what sort of priority is it where that is a grievous social sin-as it undoubtedly is in some circles-and proof of “institutional racism”?!

McVicar may not be able to pronounce the kids name right, but at least he cared a hell of a lot more than his caregivers. And the next Maori kid who is going to be done in by feral breeders and/or ‘carers’, likely sooner rather than later. Yes, the majority of Maori parents are good people, but statistically there are far too many cases like this, and if I hear another karakia and nauseating assurances about how much we love “our tamariki” I’m going to be sick.

Sorry, but marches for dead kids in the absence of real action are yet another example of self-serving sentimentality that is increasingly characterising our culture.
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June 28, 2016 9:21am
BeaB

BMW will save Britain!
The UK is the biggest single market for German cars and most English marques are owned by the Germans. No wonder Merkel is playing nice.
Political decisions are just about always driven by economic imperatives and the UK, as the fifth biggest economy in the world, is important to the EU.
Our media are all too obsessed with personal and ephemeral dramas to point out the obvious – in five years time everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. It may not even take that long.
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June 28, 2016 9:27am
BeaB

Heather du Plessis-Allan on Story last night said the Moko tragedy is ’embarrassing’ for NZ.
Vacuous thinking from an empty head.
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June 28, 2016 9:29am
Kimbo

@ eszett

England is taking the Brexit very seriously.
Well done, Iceland!

He he he. Reminds me of the great tabloid headline when England lost to Sweden in a World Ciup qualifier back in the 1980s:

Swedes 2
Turnips 0

What is it about the Poms – talk themselves up over run-of-the-mill achievements and then they come crashing down. They no sooner beat a mediocre Wallabies team than they are ready to beat the All Blacks.
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June 28, 2016 9:29am
Odakyu-sen

waikatogirl,

“Until Maori leaders acknowledge that abuse and killing tiny childen IS A MAORI ISSUE, nothing will improve.”

We know that people known as a “Maori” are probably only part-Maori (in this day and age) even though they may self-identify as “Maori.”

I would be interested to know the percentage of Maori blood in the the group that most frequently kills their children. Is most of the child killing being done by 50%-Maori? 25%-Maori? 1/8th-Maori? Or is there no one group that stands out?

Is it a “Maori” thing or is it an “underclass” thing?

I suspect that the “Maori” label is a kind of “get-out-of-responsibility” ticket that actually makes the situation worse (the more you do for people, the less they will do for themselves).
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June 28, 2016 9:31am
Inandout

Kimbo 9.21: Even Leighton is getting messages from the Te Reo Police about the way he says ‘Moko’. We must understand this is far more important than Maori kids getting slain.
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June 28, 2016 9:31am
flipper

Kimbo …..
Ok. I would swap the small issue of Te Reo for recognition of the problem, and real action (Lord only knows what that should be) to deal with the real issue.

Waikato…..
Thank you for that. I rest my case!
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June 28, 2016 9:32am
mikenmild

Great – flipper calls for action although he admits that it doesn’t know what it should be.
Do something, anything!
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June 28, 2016 9:36am
Lucia Maria

John Oliver – Brexit Aftermath 4:45 minutes

He’s not happy.
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June 28, 2016 9:36am
micbenner

Re the Moko commentary:

It is my understanding that the only reason they have any facts on the killings was because the “caregivers” told them after the manslaughter deal was accepted. People are making statements about how it should’ve been murder given X and Y – the only reason we know X and Y was because of the deal.

Just my understanding of it, I am happy to be corrected.
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June 28, 2016 9:41am
Kimbo

@ flipper

Ok. I would swap the small issue of Te Reo for recognition of the problem, and real action (Lord only knows what that should be) to deal with the real issue.

If you incentivise a behaviour you will likely increase its prevalence. Sir Apirana Ngata warned back in the 1930s, about the same time Ratana and MJ Savage were having their legendary (pass the sickbag, quick!) ‘huia feathers in a potato/tiki/broken gold watch/Ratana pin’ meeting that poorly-directed state welfare would devastate Maori…and Maori MPs were saying the same thing when Parliament liberalised liquor laws back in the late-1990s. But know-it-all well-meaning one-size-fits-all bureaucratic whitey knows better.

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/page/ratana-and-labour-seal-alliance
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June 28, 2016 9:41am
cmm

@stephieboy:

“Nelson Mandela in the Robben Island Prison at the time described the news of the 1981 protest as a a beacon of hope as if the sun had come out,”

Well of course he did. He wanted to give his leftie mates a pat on the head. It might have made Minto feel good but it had no influence on breaking down apartheid.

I actually lived in South Africa at the time and I can assure you that a few people protesting in NZ had zero effect. We already knew other people didn’t like apartheid, but we had bigger things to worry about than that.

We had bombs going off (ever woken up to a bomb going off at 5am?). We had conscription which buggered up our lives ( 2 years off to the army followed by 2 months every year). We had huge crime to worry about. So a few rabble chanting in far away NZ really didn’t register on the scale.

Whereas the Windies rebel tours in 1982/3/4 had a much more important effect. Here were a bunch of black people prepared to come play sport. Right there. In South Africa. White kids were getting their autographs and putting up pictured of them on their bedroom walls. When a white kid has a black hero that really started a lot of white people thinking that maybe splitting people up according to black vs white was not such a bright idea. Life can actually be better if you include blacks into society. That made white people far more accepting of other races than anything else that happened in the previous 10 years.

You don’t change people’s minds by yelling abuse at them. You change people’s minds by showing them an option for a brighter future.

Just like you going on about Muslims. You won’t convince anyone to agree with mass Muslim migration by yelling “islamaphobe/racist”. Instead show people how their lives will be enriched by having hundreds of thousands of Muslims around. If you can.
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June 28, 2016 9:43am
big bruv

After having see the killers and the birth parents of Moko I am firmly of the opinion that the poor little bugger had no chance in life at all. I just hope that his birth parents do not have any access to any more children.
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June 28, 2016 9:44am
Inandout

Lucia Maria: You do realise John Oliver is a comedian?
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June 28, 2016 9:44am
Ross12

The arrogance of the MSM continues over Brexit. Just looked at the NBR site and two headlines read :

1. Markets deliver tough punishment for “bungled” Brexit vote

2. Brexit aftermath: disdain, the elites and a warning to Conservative parties everywhere

The articles may have been written better but with headlines like that who bother to read further?
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June 28, 2016 9:44am
Kimbo

@ cmm

Whereas the Windies rebel tours in 1982/3/4 had a much more important effect. Here were a bunch of black people prepared to come play sport. Right there. In South Africa. White kids were getting their autographs and putting up pictured of them on their bedroom walls. When a white kid has a black hero that really started a lot of white people thinking that maybe splitting people up according to black vs white was not such a bright idea. Life can actually be better if you include blacks into society. That made white people far more accepting of other races than anything else that happened in the previous 10 years.

And don’t forget the efforts of 19 year-old All Black Bryan Williams in 1970 (and again in 1976) – one of the the first “non-whites” to be allowed on a whites-only South African sports field…and he was bloody brilliant at staging his own low-key yet highly effective “one-man protest against apartheid” (to quote Graham Mourie who chose a different way of undermining apartheid):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFeJCeWxQyM

Non-white South Africans still seek Beegee out over 40 years later, such was the effect he had – something that Nelson Mandela, gracious man that he was – also acknowledged as another way in which apartheid was overcome.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/world/all-black-inspires-young-boy-living-under-apartheid-2009072719#axzz4Coq4k6bw
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June 28, 2016 9:53am
Lucia Maria

Inandout,

You do realise John Oliver is a comedian?

Yes, and kiwibloggers like comedy. Especially in the evening.

Anyway, he makes some good points in a comedic way. Points are being made elsewhere in denser opinion pieces. He just distills them down to their essence. He’s very clever like that.

I don’t know what you are complaining about – you posted your own comedy video made by the Britain First group after Jo Cox’s murder. You never did come back and post the names of the witnesses that withdrew what they said, btw. Or have I got you confused with someone else?
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June 28, 2016 10:00am
tom hunter

Lucia Maria (4,075 comments) says:
June 28th, 2016 at 9:36 am
John Oliver – Brexit Aftermath 4:45 minutes

He’s not happy.

That’s no longer comedy – that’s a tantrum. So much so that it reminded me exactly of this…. the infamous Trigglypuff

Can anyone say… parody?
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June 28, 2016 10:02am
Yvette

The whanau is now looking ahead to the coroner’s inquest, which they believe will reveal that there are more people to blame.

Is it odd to hold a inquest after a trial, or a trial before an inquest?
Can one elicit more evidence than the other?
And why would one possibly present greater truth of what happened than the other?
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June 28, 2016 10:02am
minus

“Is it a “Maori” thing or is it an “underclass” thing?”
______

Or, how often does it happen when the “carer” is not directly a child’s natural mother or father, but rather a “solo” mother’s boyfriend or other burdened adult to whom the child is just a fucking nuisance.
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June 28, 2016 10:04am
Lucia Maria

Tom,

I found it funny in a British way. Just watching his facial expressions is funny, no matter what he says!

Ok, I might have a warped sense of humour …
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June 28, 2016 10:06am
Albert_Ross

You won’t convince anyone to agree with mass Muslim migration by yelling “islamaphobe/racist”. Instead show people how their lives will be enriched by having hundreds of thousands of Muslims around. If you can.

Who is actually trying to convince anyone to agree to mass Muslim migration to New Zealand – as opposed to favouring treating would-be Muslim immigrants the same as any other would-be immigrant? That is, they can come if they meet the criteria (and those are quite stringent), and not if they don’t; and once they are here, the laws will apply to them the same as they do to everybody else.

For the avoidance of doubt, these aren’t the same thing. The former is a strawman bogeyman. The latter is what is required by a society which claims to uphold the values of freedom of conscience, liberty and the rule of law.
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June 28, 2016 10:11am
Nigel Kearney

Is it a “Maori” thing or is it an “underclass” thing?

Poor parenting is a Maori thing. Obviously not exclusively and not for genetic reasons, but because people learn how to be a parent from their own experience growing up. They also learn how to make a marriage work from observing their own parents. So you would expect race to be correlated with academic underachievement, crime and relationship failure. To stop that you need to find ways to either help parents, or replace what they cannot provide.

But the biggest factor under the government’s control is welfare. Without government intervention, people who are poorly equipped to be parents would have fewer children, and those well suited to be parents would have more children. Welfare has turned that on its head. As long as children function as an income stream, the problem of child abuse will not go away.
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June 28, 2016 10:11am
tom hunter

@Lucia
I’ve found most of his stuff both funny and informative as he’s taken Jon Stewart’s politicised comedy “news” and turned it into real journalism, packaged in a way the average OneNews viewer would not recognise – and a hell of a lot better explained in depth.

For example, Oliver did a great piece on the economic insanity of US cities paying for stadiums for professional sports teams – but he was fair in showing what pressure the politicians are placed under by the fans themselves, not just the usual story of the Big Bad Corporate.

But here, he’s just having a tanty, losing the plot, having a meltdown in exactly the way most other journalists did. As McCardle said the other day, people like him have more in common with eachother than ordinary people. And there was nothing wry, dry or understated about that performance. Like almost every other Leftie elitist he does not like being told “NO” to his pronouncements of why “YES” is so great and just so obviously the rational, non-insane, choice.

I’d also note the irony of a guy who left Britain to further his career, unloading about Britain leaving the EU.
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June 28, 2016 10:15am
James Stephenson

@ Lucia Maria – it sounds as though the English footballers are about to do a Brexit of their own, which will result in further misery and blood-letting across England.

On the other hand, the UK Government is looking for someone to lead a disfunctional bunch of millionaires out of Europe…where might they find such a person?
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June 28, 2016 10:16am
Inandout

Lucia Maria 10.00am: John Oliver screams too much for me, a bit like the new Top Gear presenter. Anyway, anything relating to the MSM reporting on Jo Cox must be taken with a pinch of salt. And finally Merkel’s announcement of a EU no borders, one law superstate being formed just goes to show Brexit was perhaps the wisest choice.
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June 28, 2016 10:16am
WineOh

jcuk- I recall travelling to Vancouver a few years ago, and took a train straight from the airport directly into the heart of the city – arriving less than a block away from my hotel. Something like $10 per person – and it was clean and fast. Very impressive I thought at the time. The paralysis around the creation of meaningful transport solutions in Auckland is laughable. The current shift towards a ‘light rail’ solution is more than 10 years away too. FFS.
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June 28, 2016 10:21am
Manolo

Nutter Corbyn clings to life:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3661724/Labour-exodus-continues-three-shadow-ministers-quit-protest-Corbyn-s-leadership-bringing-total-14-deputy-leader-set-tell-resign.html
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June 28, 2016 10:21am
Rachael Membery

Was the plea deal at the behest of the prosecution or the defence? I cant say that I think that the prosecution should do the defences job for them, if it was the prosecution, if that was the case.

Anyway, I marched, it didn’t make me feel good but I did think that in the absence of a trial that at least some light was shed on the matter and that that poor little boy and what he went through was publically acknowledged.

The Sensible Sentencing Trust at least focusses on the issues, who would be doing it otherwise?

Better than doing nothing. Thanks to the organisers without whom it would not have been possible.
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June 28, 2016 10:22am
stephieboy

cmm , when have I yelled” Islamaphoci / racist “and who is advocating mass Muslim migration ?

It might be a moot point whether to tour or not to as the Windies may illustrate , but the facts remain the 1981 protest did have some impact .One thing is for sure the apartheid regime you lived under did not survive and sporting isolation was a factor in that . Wynnard Classen the Springbok Captain did say the protests did have an effect on the team and himself that caused him to rethink his government policies ,

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/features/5327887/Recalling-that-tour

Kimbo, it’s worthwhile recalling that Bryan Williams was included in the team and that was in response to the NZ Rugby Union’s “No Maori No Tour “policy and Ppotest
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June 28, 2016 10:23am
tom hunter

Kimbo (6,390 comments) says:
June 28th, 2016 at 9:53 am
…
And don’t forget the efforts of 19 year-old All Black Bryan Williams

Whenever anybody starts talking about what Nelson Mandela has said about the protests against the 1981 Springbok tour of NZ, I always point out two things about what he says.

First, like any good politician, he speaks to the audience and tells them what they love to hear.

Second, reading his mammoth autobiography, Long Walk To Freedom, you find not one mention of the Springboks, All Blacks , or rugby, let alone the 1981 protests.
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June 28, 2016 10:30am
Salacious Crumb

Stephieboy,

Where are Minto and Richards now? Surely they would be appalled by the South African governments racially based selection policies forced upon the South African Rugby Union?
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June 28, 2016 10:37am
Manolo

Will our own stephieboy come to the rescue and lend a few dollars?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662524/Crying-Australian-jihadi-Mohammad-Ali-Baryalei-makes-desperate-call-Syria-begs-come-home.html

An Australian Islamic State militant involved in a plot to behead a person in Sydney sobbed on the phone to a fellow recruiter as he described the moment he watched his commander die in battle.

A private phone call between IS fighter Mohammad Ali Baryalei, from Western Sydney, and Hamdi Al Qudsi were played during the alleged recruiter’s trial in Parramatta District Court on Monday.

Baryalei, who defected to Syria in 2013, said he was desperate to return to Australia and explained to Al Qudsi that he was ‘over’ watching his comrades die in battle, the Daily Telegraph reported.
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June 28, 2016 10:38am
Hajji

How Maori are modern “Maori”?

G # Year % Maori

1 1800 1/2 50.000%
2 1820 1/4 25.000%
3 1840 1/8 12.500%
4 1860 1/16 6.250%
5 1880 1/32 3.125%
6 1900 1/64 1.563%
7 1920 1/128 0.781%
8 1940 1/256 0.391%
9 1960 1/512 0.195%
10 1980 1/1024 0.098%
11 2000 1/2048 0.049%
12 2020 1/4096 0.024%
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June 28, 2016 10:40am
Kimbo

@ Salacious Crumb

Where (is) Minto…now?

Still the same in the self-righteous bunker he always was. Others, with the benefit of hindsight moderated their views and added wisdom to their perspective to mature their former passion, including the afore-mentioned Nelson Mandela, and the likes of Ross Meurant and many of the politicians and sports people. But not Minto. Not one jot. What do they say about people who never forget…and never learn?
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June 28, 2016 10:41am
MT_Tinman

tom hunter (7,371 comments) says:
June 28th, 2016 at 10:30 am

Second, reading his mammoth autobiography, Long Walk To Freedom, you find not one mention of the Springboks, All Blacks , or rugby, let alone the 1981 protests.

Probably because the 1981 protests were not about apartheid but about how various people thought change could be brought about.

The good guys thought, as you do, that demonstrating how black and white could work together (the All Blacks post 1960), the bad guys attempting to force those who didn’t agree with them to change their mind via violence and vandalism.
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June 28, 2016 10:45am
Kimbo

@ tom hunter

Whenever anybody starts talking about what Nelson Mandela has said about the protests against the 1981 Springbok tour of NZ, I always point out two things about what he says.

First, like any good politician, he speaks to the audience and tells them what they love to hear.

Second, reading his mammoth autobiography, Long Walk To Freedom, you find not one mention of the Springboks, All Blacks , or rugby, let alone the 1981 protests.

Indeed. Ultimately the 1981 Springbok tour protests (and the decision to go ahead for that matter, too), were everything to do with apartheid, and nothing to do with apartheid, everything to do with South Africa and nothing to do with South Africa, everything to do about rugby and nothing to do with rugby, everything to do with rugby.

Instead, it was about New Zealand.

Oh, yes, and even though it is highly unfashionable, the South African who did the most to undermine apartheid on the rugby field during the years 1961 to 1992 was…Dr Danie Craven. Hell, he was even working hard (but unsuccessfully) during the 1956 Springbok tour here to do what he could to try and get Maori eligible for the 1960 All Black return visit. Instead, even that was subsequently misrepresented – in much the same way his scrummaging advice to our 1949 touring team (when he was Springbok coach!) was used against him

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10638894
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June 28, 2016 10:47am
Happychappy

Now wasn’t it Winston Peters, James Shaw and Andrew Little that said that the inquiry that John Key was putting into place on NZ’s Foreign Trusts tax avoidance led by John Shewan would be a white wash and cover up and the person to lead the inquiry was not fit to be in charge.Now we have the result of the inquiry and the MSM headlines from it,ForeignTrusts Rules “must change for the sake of NZ’s reputation ” official inquiry finds.Now we have the opposition saying we told you so,but nothing about the man they smeared and defamed in their bid to score hits on the Government and John Key.They don’t like to mention that John Shewan also said there was nothing illegal in what Foreign Trusts were doing and it was more about NZ’s name coming into question over tax aviodance
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June 28, 2016 10:49am
Keeping Stock

To his credit, Minto actually turned his back on the new South Africann regime:

Anti-apartheid campaigner John Minto has refused the South African Government’s highest honour for foreigners because he is “deeply dismayed” about conditions in that country.

Minto has been nominated for the Companion of O. R. Tambo Award by a South African government official, but wants the bid withdrawn.

“(South Africa) was the democratic country with so much hope and I think for so many people it’s been the deepest of disappointment, and certainly it has been for me,” Minto said.

“I’m just deeply dismayed at what’s happened.”

The union organiser and Press columnist was the national organiser of the Halt All Racist Tours movement (Hart) during the controversial 1981 Springbok tour of New Zealand.

He later became national chairman of the anti-apartheid group.

The Tambo award is the highest honour given to non-South Africans in recognition of friendship, co-operation and support.

Previous recipients include Mahatma Gandhi, Kofi Annan, Salvador Allende and Martin Luther King Jun.

In an open letter to South African President Thabo Mbeki, Minto lambasts the African National Congress government, which he said had “sidelined” social and economic rights.

“When we protested and marched into police batons and barbed wire here in the struggle against apartheid, we were not fighting for a small black elite to become millionaires,” Minto writes in The Press today.

“We were fighting for a better South Africa for all its citizens. The faces at the top have changed from white to black but the substance of change is an illusion.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/240292/Minto-refuses-South-Africas-highest-honour

Around the same time however, he became an activist on behalf of the terrorists who run Palestine and Hamas, so any praise for his u-turn on South Africa must be tempered by that.
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June 28, 2016 10:51am
mikenmild

The US Supreme Court finally expose the sham of laws which restrict access to abortion under the guise of providing for women’s health.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/81520460/us-supreme-court-firmly-backs-abortion-rights-tosses-texas-law
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June 28, 2016 10:52am
Jack5

The revolt against British Opposition leader Corbyn shows how brilliant the Specsavers slogan and advertising campaign has been.

Chris Bryant, who resigned as shadow Leader of the House earlier, said Mr Corbyn ‘needs to go to Specsavers’ if he could not see it was time to go, reports the Daily Mail.
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June 28, 2016 10:56am
tom hunter

MT_Tinman (4,372 comments) says:
June 28th, 2016 at 10:45 am
tom hunter (7,371 comments) says:
…
Probably because the 1981 protests were not about apartheid but about how various people thought change could be brought about.

Yep. As Kimbo says, it was about NZ. A reaction against a stultified, conservative society built by the survivors of WWII, who wanted perfect safety from repeats of The Slump and world war. And Muldoon was the perfect symbol of all that, which just added to the anger and hatred because of his nearly two decade dominance of NZ politics.

By the late 80’s I was chuckling at the thought that all the people screaming for change in 1981, never realised that breaking the bonds on control meant almost all the bonds, economic as well as social. I think a lot of them thought they could ditch all the social and cultural conservatism (with all the controls that implied) but not the economic conservatism.

Societies don’t work like that. Society, culture and economics are joined at the hip.
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June 28, 2016 10:57am
tom hunter

Keeping Stock (12,185 comments) says:
June 28th, 2016 at 10:51 am
To his credit, Minto actually turned his back on the new South Africann regime:

Ah – no.

Minto has been pissed off for years because the new South African government did not turn into the little communist paradise he yearns for everywhere.

As I recall, even Mandella was a bit mystified by Minto’s reactions against corporations in South Africa, saying something to the effect of, where else will the jobs come from?

Minto was always a disingenuous Far Left cunt, using a genuine mass movement of outrage to his own ends. He richly deserves the fate of carpet-biting, dustbin rage that history has consigned him to.
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June 28, 2016 11:02am
Kimbo

@ tom hunter

By the late 80’s I was chuckling at the thought that all the people screaming for change in 1981, never realised that breaking the bonds on control meant almost all the bonds, economic as well as social. I think a lot of them thought they could ditch all the social and cultural conservatism (with all the controls that implied) but not the economic conservatism.

But, but, but our anti-nuclear policy ~~showed the world~~ gave a bunch of Utopian dreamers a self-righteous thrill…just as we should show the world with climate change! //
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June 28, 2016 11:03am
chiz

In Sweden, the Church of Sweden receives money from the taxpayer, and guess what:

[…]the astonishing new revelations about church politicians and high-ranking priests spending tax-payers’ money on expensive trips abroad will not bring any new inductees to the Church of Sweden any time soon.

Football in England, expensive dinners at celebrity restaurants, well-known holiday destinations and chic musicals. These are only a handful of examples on how the Church of Sweden spends its membership fees.

[…]
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June 28, 2016 11:04am
Kimbo

@ chiz

In Sweden, the Church of Sweden receives money from the taxpayer,

Is usually a standard arrangement in predominantly Lutheran countries, including Germany I believe. But then if you are going to have a Reformation and listen to Martin Luther instead of John Calvin on the nature of the separation between state and church…
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June 28, 2016 11:09am
Jack5

The Ashburton murderer, Russell John Tulley, who, but for chance, might have slaughtered even more of the local Work and Income Staff, is to appeal his sentence.

Does the State finance the appeal of such an absolute scumbag whose guilt is obvious to all? He deserves to be jerked to Jesus, but will live on taxpayer funded food and board for the rest of his miserable life.

Appeals, retrials,commissions, university education in prison, driving courses for those leaving …. from feeding taxpayer money to the law industry to pampering murderers, New Zealand justice is a big welfare system. Yes it’s socialistic, and those lawyers who profess to be free-marketers, have their hands in it.

With all this largesse, and propensity for retrials, how can the country’s most notorious justice fuck-up, the trial and imprisonment of Peter Ellis fail to be addressed? That trial mirrored similar hysteria trials overseas. As the accusations of children spun out of control, they entailed fairy tales of underground tunnels, and suggestions lodges, police, even judges were involved. Besides Ellis, a number of honest, hard-working, decent creche workers had their lives destroyed by this madness, which Justice Minister after Justice Minister has refused to address fairly.
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June 28, 2016 11:22am
MT_Tinman

tom hunter (7,374 comments) says:
June 28th, 2016 at 10:57 am

A reaction against a stultified, conservative society built by the survivors of WWII, who wanted perfect safety from repeats of The Slump and world war. And Muldoon was the perfect symbol of all that, which just added to the anger and hatred because of his nearly two decade dominance of NZ politics.

No, you vastly overestimate the average punter.

Muldoon was right, the average punter wouldn’t know a deficit (or vitually any other financial effect) if he fell over it. Neither would he recognise any social trend or his part in it.

1981 was simply the we-know-best crew throwing a tantrum because the public (wisely)weren’t paying attention to them.
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June 28, 2016 11:25am
rangitoto

jcuk:

What Priority? 16 million being raised for some Art Centre in Whangarei, 11 million already raised thanks to generous Kiwis, while homeless sleep in the streets.

Yeah. Think of all the dope and glue the homeless could have bought for that.
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June 28, 2016 11:33am
cmm

@Kimbo :

“Instead, it was about New Zealand. ”

Absolutely correct.

The Springbok tours were far more a defining moment for NZ than for South Africa & apartheid.
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June 28, 2016 11:33am
Odakyu-sen

Is it a “Maori” thing or is it an “underclass” thing?

I suspect that members of the underclass (like the aristocracy) do not work for their money, but have it given to them.
Similarly, in the way that a feudal lord would have whipped any serf who dared look him in the eye, so will some members of the underclass offer abuse or threats of physical violence if similar eye contact is made.

What pride they seem to have…
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June 28, 2016 11:34am
Jack5

MT-TInman at 11.25…

The average punter mightn’t know a deficit if he or she stumbled over it.

But the politicians and banksters have an even bigger con in the balance of payments figures. We have been in the red on this for nearly half a century, and they con. us that we can cover this for ever by borrowing, and flogging off assets to foreigners.

Then there is the con. the politicians and banksters con. the MSM with – GDP growth. “Up again” and better than the plodders overseas (except for miracle China) is the message. Yet the real measure – growth measured by GDP per capita – shows the NZ economic ship is pretty much dead in the water.
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June 28, 2016 11:35am
Don the Kiwi

This will be an eye-opener for those who think Hillary is right for POTUS – looking at you DPF and others.

Trump has it dead right when he calls her Crooked Hillary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kypl1MYuKDY

(about 20 mins long)
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June 28, 2016 11:35am
Stars And Stripes

mikenmild (22,839 comments) says:

June 28th, 2016 at 9:36 am

“Great – flipper calls for action although he admits that it doesn’t know what it should be.
Do something, anything!”

The solution starts and ends with the ridiculous social welfare system we have MM which has turned large sections of the population into feckless wasters.
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June 28, 2016 11:37am
Kimbo

@ MT_Tinman

A reaction against a stultified, conservative society built by the survivors of WWII, who wanted perfect safety from repeats of The Slump and world war. And Muldoon was the perfect symbol of all that, which just added to the anger and hatred because of his nearly two decade dominance of NZ politics.

No, you vastly overestimate the average punter.

Muldoon was right, the average punter wouldn’t know a deficit (or vitually any other financial effect) if he fell over it. Neither would he recognise any social trend or his part in it.

1981 was simply the we-know-best crew throwing a tantrum because the public (wisely)weren’t paying attention to them.

Hmm. No, that over-simplifies things. For his supporters (who were the ‘silent majority’) Muldoon was manna from heaven – an essentially decent Kiwi, courageous, contemptuous of pressure groups, hypocrisy and what is now called “virtue signalling” that compromised real concrete practical deeds to do good. Also, contrary to many of his critics, he never had a racist bone in his body.

But he was a polarising politician, a bit like Judith Collins is now. And in a time of social, political and economic change (some of it long-overdue), he became an easy target for liberal dis-satisfaction. But, again, to give credit where it was due, he was always consistent on the sporting contacts with South Africa issue. And probably knew the sporting boycott was a self-satisfied wank by left-wingers that would have no real effect on the South African regime, but would penalise sports people whose conscience allowed them to compete. Meanwhile, businesses still got to ply their trade in South Africa (it wasn’t until the late 1980s that was targeted)
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June 28, 2016 11:38am
Fletch

John Oliver’s piece is kind of amusing, but it’s sarcasm-heavy and fact-lite. He may joke about “independence day” but Brexit actually has a lot in common with America gaining its independence from British power. He should check out The Boston Tea Party in 1773 (which led to the War of Independence) and the reasons for it – namely, laws and taxes being imposed on America by a power overseas and not by their own elected representatives. Sound familiar?
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June 28, 2016 11:41am
Manolo

Will we live to see this or will hell freeze over first?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-superstate-France-Germany-draw-plans-morph-EU-countries-one-control-members-armies-economies.html

Plans for ‘a closer European Union’ have been branded an attempt to create a ‘European superstate’.

Germany’s foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and his French counterpart Jean-Marc Ayrault today presented a proposal for closer EU integration based on three key areas – internal and external security, the migrant crisis, and economic cooperation.

But the plans have been described as an ‘ultimatum’ in Poland, with claims it would mean countries transfer their armies, economic systems and border controls to the EU.
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June 28, 2016 12:05pm
Shawn Herles

” looking at you DPF and others”

I’m pretty sure DPF is voting for the nudist party, oops, I mean the Libertarian party. 🙂
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June 28, 2016 12:07pm
cha

Sound familiar?

The UK elected 73 EU MEP’s so no, nothing at all like Boston in 1773.

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps.html
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June 28, 2016 12:10pm

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