General Debate 21 August 2016

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mikenmild

It is not that ‘revisionist’ history is somehow immune from further argument. If Maxwell’s work presents a different perspective from Belich’s, that’s well and good. It is unlikely that Maxwell, in his turn, has produced some unarguably new truths about the conflicts.
Belich, for example, has been criticised for many for some of his arguments about novel aspects of Maori warfare. That is how history works.
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August 21, 2016 11:03am
Kimbo

@ Kiwi Dave

…or Mike Butler.

But if I’m wrong that he too has not submitted his research and findings to the hygiene of formal academic peer review, then I eagerly await your correction, with an apology to come from me in a speedy manner.

Mike Butler

NZCPR Research Associate: Mike Butler is a property investor and manager. He is author of “The First Colonist — The life and times of Samuel Deighton 1821-1900”, a former contract writer for the New World Encyclopedia, and he was the chief sub-editor of the Hawke’s Bay Herald-Tribune between 1986 and 1999.

http://www.nzcpr.com/about-us/
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August 21, 2016 11:05am
Keeping Stock

Is it a full moon today? I ask, because the GD got off to a particularly bad start this morning, and doesn’t seem to have improved at all 😉
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August 21, 2016 11:08am
starboard

Looks like mm is having one of those look down his nose /ask questions day. Arrogant little twat.

“Looks like any official commemorations of the New Zealand Wars will upset a few New Zealanders. Why is that?”

“Can you give me examples of such hogwash, Griff?”

“nasska – got any examples of these rewrites?”

“Maybe you have some other examples”
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August 21, 2016 11:10am
Jack5

Re Northland Wahine at 10.42 on revisionist historians in NZ.

Academics did, mostly pakeha academics. They researched, found documents, collated and came to the conclusion things may have not been what they seemed. It also supported some of what was already “history”.

Yes, NW, new versions of history are rewritten everywhere, and they are particularly common now because of the publishing surge in what might be the old age of print publishing (for example 300,000 to 350,000 new titles a year in USA, about 200,000 new titles each in China and Britain, and about 2,800 in New Zealand).

One of the contentious things about the latest round of NZ history revisions has been the use of Maori oral history. This may have been strong because Maori culture long used this to pass down history and useful knowledge. However, if you ever try one of the party tricks of making up two or three sentences and getting the little story passed from person to person through ten or so people, you will be sceptical of oral memories.

On the other hand, many of the latest historians claim to be able to verify their work in some points with access to written documents.

As you say, Northland Wahine, much or even most of the latest NZ histories are from non-Maori academics. That is part of the problem. Many of the rest of us see as suspect any work from the largely Leftist, politically correct mob, some of them political activists, who seem to dominate what used to be called the “arts” sections of our universities. One of those leading revisionists, Anne Salmond, has a background in anthropology rather than history. Anthropologists are notorious for being lightweights who consider all cultures equal. If some tribe in PNG, remote from the world for millennia, ate brains and half died as a result from kuru, the tribe’s culture was still the equal of modern cultures in this anthropological view.

As evidence of why many anthropologists should be regarded with scepticism, consider perhaps the famous anthropologist book, Margaret Mead’s Coming of Age in Samoa. It has been shown that Mead was hoaxed about the sexual customs of Samoa.

As for the tradition of victors writing the histories of wars … If Maori consider the colonists the victors in the land wars, and the very existence of the Waitangi Tribunal suggests they do, then in NZ history is being rewritten on behalf of those who lost the land wars.
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August 21, 2016 11:13am
nasska

….”How does it “cement bitching” if you or the majority of Kiwis ignore it?”….

Because although we tend to think of NZ as being a nation it is actually two totally separate species living parallel existences. Group A are relatively satisfied with having a job, raising a family, sport & living the few years allotted to them in peace. Group B know deep down in their widdle hearts that society is “not fair” & waste their lives tilting at windmills.

When politicians, teachers, historians, the MSM & Maori grievance merchants fill Group B to capacity, even although they are numerically a small minority, they take over & their crap prevails.

That has already happened…..you want to push it even further.
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August 21, 2016 11:14am
Viking2

mikenmild (24,028 comments) says:
August 21st, 2016 at 8:59 am

Looks like any official commemorations of the New Zealand Wars will upset a few New Zealanders. Why is that?
========================================================================================
What advantage will celebrating these days be to the population?

What”war” will it celebrate. There was more than one skirmish involving a lot of tribes and many were tribe to tribe. Many were “moderated” by the various English units that came here.
Had they not come or not “mediated” what would we be celebrating?

Lastly of what economic benefit would another day off be to the productivity and wealth of most NZer’s.
Given that individuals wealth matters to most and also matters to the country as a whole, how will this day improve that wealth for the 4.0 million non Maori in NZ and how will the days celebration make the approximately 705000 Maori better off?

Now try answering in long form not in your usual one liners.
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August 21, 2016 11:14am
waikatogirl

Stars&S
“But as it will be a national holiday, it will be all of us who will determine how it will be celebrated”.
*

Make Maori Wars celebration on 6 February.

The rest of us kiwis can opt for another day to enjoy our country
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August 21, 2016 11:16am
stephieboy

Kimbo , i noticed you posted some rather misleading information yesterday blaming the Democrats going back to JFK for the Vietnam war .I take it the Republicans were always opposed to intervention in Indo-China and Vietnam going back to 1954 etc and vigorously voiced their opposition to the war ?

Also did not Nixon, in fact, escalate the conflict by both withdrawing troops and increasing the bombing ? I forgot to mention that the Vietnamese family living at Hoi An described the war as the “American War ” . The devastation surrounding the outskirts of the town was just one example that sums up and accurately describes the conflict from their perspective .

Kriss X ,

“S&M always run away and ignore all the tricky questions.”

What tricky questions ?
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August 21, 2016 11:18am
Jack5

If there is to be Land Wars commemoration, let’s not forget to commemorate the colonial side.

I’m thinking particularly of one of the most colourful characters in New Zealand’s history, our Prussian colonial militia leader von Tempsky: soldier, artist, adventurer.

Te Papa has a big collection of mere and other Maori weapons but I bet there is no version of the von Tempsky Rangers Bowie knife, replicas of which are now being collected by international knife enthusiasts and militaria enthusiasts.
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August 21, 2016 11:20am
waikatogirl

KS
Is it a full moon today? I ask, because the GD got off to a particularly bad start this morning, and doesn’t seem to have improved at all ?
*

Happy for you to take the lead KS. What interesting tid bit have you got for us today? 🙂
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August 21, 2016 11:24am
Kimbo

@ nasska

….”How does it “cement bitching” if you or the majority of Kiwis ignore it?”….

Because although we tend to think of NZ as being a nation it is actually two totally separate species living parallel existences. Group A are relatively satisfied with having a job, raising a family, sport & living the few years allotted to them in peace. Group B know deep down in their widdle hearts that society is “not fair” & waste their lives tilting at windmills.

Isn’t that what “pluralism” and “freedom of thought” is meant to encourage, or at least allow?! Pagan/uber-atheist nasska holds religion in contempt and he is free to do so, including on Christmas Day, while other Kiwis go to church…

Most Kiwis think Anzac Day deserves recognition, if not their attendance at a Dawn Service, while some pacifists (where are you today, Griff?) and anti-war activists hold it in contempt as a glorification of killing.

Most are happy to celebrate the Sovereign’s official birthday while republicans want to abolish links to QEII and her clan.

Some are happy to see legislation that controls work conditions, whereas others see Labour Day as the celebration of an imposition on freedom.

So tell me again what the problem is with a diversity of opinion over Waitangi Day and a New Zealand Wars Day?!

Honestly, nasska, you may be fiercely anti-religion, but your “stop it/ban it for the sake of the children” attitude is right out of the dour Presbyterian playbook!
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August 21, 2016 11:26am
stephieboy

Jack 5, i see Ann Salmond’s credentials are in doubt because she is by training an Anthropologist . I really don’t see how that is relevant but does historian Claudia Orange fit the bill or is she another lightweight ?

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/43561/claudia-orange
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August 21, 2016 11:26am
Kriss X

stephieboy (13,210 comments) says:
August 21st, 2016 at 11:18 am

Kriss X ,

“S&M always run away and ignore all the tricky questions.”

What tricky questions ?

==============================================

Kriss X (544 comments) says:
August 21st, 2016 at 9:54 am
stephieboy,

1. Will Maori apologise for their brutal treatment of the new immigrants as part of the commemorations ?

2. Do you think this Maori aggression to immigrants is responsible for the current resistance to mass Islamic immigration ?
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August 21, 2016 11:27am
Jack5

Good morning, Stephie X (11.26 post)..

What’s the scuttlebutt from the Mount Wellington mosques about the local boys who are with ISIL, Stephie?
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August 21, 2016 11:31am
stephieboy

Kriss X ,

Expand on your first one ?. Hard to know what point you’re making ?

Second point . The answer is No !
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August 21, 2016 11:31am
Kimbo

@ Jack5

If there is to be Land Wars commemoration, let’s not forget to commemorate the colonial side.

I’m thinking particularly of one of the most colourful characters in New Zealand’s history, our Prussian colonial militia leader von Tempsky: soldier, artist, adventurer.

Te Papa has a big collection of mere and other Maori weapons but I bet there is no version of the von Tempsky Rangers Bowie knife, replicas of which are now being collected by international knife enthusiasts and militaria enthusiasts.

Exactly! We have local anniversary holidays, but nothing that focuses as a whole on those remarkable Victorian-era settlers who laid the foundation for our nation! The new Zealand Wars are part of their fascinating history.
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August 21, 2016 11:33am
Northland Wahine

Jack5 @ 11.13

“… much or even most of the latest NZ histories are from non-Maori academics. That is part of the problem. Many of the rest of us see as suspect any work from the largely Leftist, politically correct mob, some of them political activists, who seem to dominate what used to be called the “arts” sections of our universities. ”

Isn’t the “art sections”of our modern day culture, one of the reasons we considered ourselves civilised? We can not celebrate, art and literature with one hand and negate it with the other. And if the leftist politically correct mob is behind the rewriting or correcting of our history, depending on your point of view, could they not argue that it is in the right wings favour to negate their findings?

“As for the tradition of victors writing the histories of wars … If Maori consider the colonists the victors in the land wars, and the very existence of the Waitangi Tribunal suggests they do, then in NZ history is being rewritten on behalf of those who lost the land wars.”

I don’t think Academics see the treaty as a recognition of victory. They see it as an agreement between Britian and the Maori tribes and what was expected to happen from there. That didn’t happen and there lies the contention.

(Would enjoy continuing this howeverpopping out to purchase a pair of Messi soccer boots for my football crazed son!)
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August 21, 2016 11:35am
waikatosinger

The land wars holiday will quickly become another day of grievance protest and divisiveness. If we are to have another holiday I would have much preferred it to be Matariki. New Zealand lacks a midwinter celebration. If is very human to want to light fires in the cold and dark of midwinter and celebrate that the return to light and warmth has begun. In the northern hemisphere they do this at Christmas and/or New Year. But we don’t have anything. This kind of celebration beings people together in warmth and fellowship whereas commemorating a civil war drives them apart. Civil wars are the worst kind of war and unless they result in some great victory against tyranny (as our did not) are seldom cause for celebration. The US doesn’t have a holiday to celebrate its civil war, because if they did it would quickly become a focal point for annual dissension about display of the confederate flag.
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August 21, 2016 11:37am
nasska

Kimbo

….”Isn’t that what “pluralism” and “freedom of thought” is meant to encourage?”….

Yes & it doesn’t need government interference to encourage it further.

But I will concede that the original excuses for a three day weekend haven’t lasted as long as the holidays. On the other hand my cynical nature tells me that Maori grievance days will last longer than the universe itself. Indeed as problems are sorted out new gripes will be seeded & nurtured to replace them.

What we cultivate we will reap.
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August 21, 2016 11:43am
Scott Hamilton

The comments on this thread show why we need a day to remember the facts of the NZ Wars and to debate the various interpretations of them.

A couple of comments:

1. It’s not possible to claim that the Waikato peoples ‘sold their land fairly’ after the war. It was confiscated without payment.

2. Kingite forces hadn’t had two generations of continuous experience of warfare between 1810 and the invasion of the Waikato in 1863. The Musket Wars had petered out by the mid-1830s, and Waikato weren’t involved in the northern war of the 1840s.

3. Neither James Belich nor any else denies the importance of James Cowan’s study of the wars. Those who try to counterpose Cowan with Belich seem to imagine Cowan took the side of the Crown in his book. He didn’t. Like virtually every historian who has considered the matter, from John Gorst in the 1860s to Keith Sinclair in the ’50s to Belich in the ’90s, he considered the Waikato War a transparent land grab. He wasn’t much more enthusiastic about the other theatres of the NZ Wars.

4. James Belich has not attempted to downplay the role of pro-Crown Maori in the wars. On the contrary, he has highlighted this role. His TV series on the wars was so remarkable partly because of the way it went into the histories of the pro-Crown iwi.

5. It is very true to say that most of the wars, especially after the 840s, were complex affairs with involving many parties. Some Maori fought against the Crown while others sided with it for tactical reasons. The British government was increasingly estranged from the colonial government, and openly criticised some of the colonial wars. Some Pakeha supported Maori forces fighting the Crown – for example, a Fenian organisation based in the Coromandel organisation backed Te Kooti during his guerrilla war. Hence it makes little sense to talk about most of the wars as ‘Britain versus the Maori’ or even ‘brown against white’.

5. Like Anzac Day commemorations, ceremonies to remember the NZ Wars are going to have different emphases in different places. A ceremony in Rotorua, heartland of the mostly pro-Crown Te Arawa, will likely be different from a ceremony in Whangarei, heartland of Nga Puhi, who fought a relatively simple two-sided war with the British army in the 1840s and stayed out of later conflicts. There are already many individuals and groups remembering the wars in various ways. I’m a member of the Queens Redoubt Trust, which has reconstructed the old fort in Pokeno and built an interpretation centre. The QRT is committed to remembering the wars in their complexity, and includes members of Pakeha and Maori communities as well as a couple of professional scholars. Anyone can join the trust and contribute to discussions about how the wars should be remembered. http://www.queensredoubt.co.nz/
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August 21, 2016 11:44am
waikatosinger

Watching the slow collapse of Turkey’s democracy and its awful slide into tyranny and dictatorship, it occurs to me that this would probably not have happened if Turkey had chosen to go with a parliamentary rather than a presidential system. Presidential democracies can slide into dictatorship far more easily – it is just a matter of the president asserting more and more power – declaring himself “president for life” and so on. The parliamentary system is far more stable and superior. We should be more vigorous in future in promoting the benefits of our system of government, and try to persuade emerging democracies to go down the parliamentary rather than the presidential route.
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August 21, 2016 11:46am
Kriss X

I just popped over to the Standard and read a bit of Open Mike to see what S&M were thinking.

Full on unfettered communism. They are not even pretending anymore. If we let the Greens and Labour into power we are doomed.
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August 21, 2016 11:48am
Jack5

Scott Hamilton, at 11.44, as usual makes some good points.

But, Scott, why do we need a national day, which doubtless will soon become yet another holiday, to mark the Land Wars.

Everything you are doing or want done could be done without having an official national day.

Land Wars Day is a sop to the 2 per cent Maori Party.

If we still had Social Credit MPs, MMP might be giving us a Douglas Day for social credit’s mad founder.
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August 21, 2016 11:50am
Kimbo

@ nasska

Good post.

On a much more serious matter – It was some 40 years ago (1978 to be exact) that a Ned Kelly-lookalike named Greg Cornelsen scored a remarkable 4 tries in a test match at Eden Park, and in doing so helped launch Australian rugby as a world class competitor. Before then, other than when they had an occasional genius like Cyril Towers or Ken Catchpole, they were the perennial easy-beats of international rugby. And then came Mark Ella, David Campese, Nick Farr-Jones, John Eales, George Gregan…

As much as it is fun to give the Aussies a pasting, I’m struggling to recall such an insipid performance from a Wallabies team – and it is their fifth loss in a row. I hope, for the sake of world rugby, this is not an indication they are reverting back to the “bad old days” when playing and beating the Aussies was just another game…
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August 21, 2016 11:51am
Jack5

Kriss X….

You’re right about the Greens. Their Utopian madness is making them socialist roaders.
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August 21, 2016 11:52am
Northland Wahine

I love this moderation…not!
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August 21, 2016 11:53am
Kriss X

Their Utopian madness is making them socialist roaders.

=================================

No it is worse than that. Go have a read !
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August 21, 2016 11:55am
nasska

….”and built an interpretation centre.”…..

It will be so biased to the cause of the noble savage that it will have been built at 45 degrees to the perpendicular.
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August 21, 2016 11:55am
stephieboy

Scott Hamilton , thank you for your typically erudite and thoughtful post that is in stark contrast with some of the ill-informed and uneducated historical guesswork that often features here about the NZ wars . At times a complex affair as you remind us and not simply a black and white them versus us .

Jack 5 , for a change I tend to agree with you The NZ wars commemoration could be included in Waiting day or even perhaps Anzac day .
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August 21, 2016 11:55am
starboard

It knows you’re related to Margaret Mutu NW…
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August 21, 2016 11:55am
Stars And Stripes

Singer- Turkey is just following the same pattern as most other Islamic countries round the world with the mixing of religion and state yielding nasty results.
Most Islamic countries have only ever known strong thuggish dictators as leaders and have no concept of democracy or parliamentary systems so business as usual with what’s happening in Turkey.
More Muslim refugees soon probably.
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August 21, 2016 11:56am
Scott Hamilton

I think a national day’s a great idea, Jack, because the NZ Wars were so important. They are far more important than Gallipoli or the Queen’s birthday. But I think that we shouldn’t keep the NZ Wars out of Anzac Day, either, because the first Anzacs served in the Waikato and Taranaki campaigns. Hundreds of Aussies signed up as soldier-settlers, and some died on the battlefields. The Anzac story began here in the 1860s.

It looks like VT’s knife is in Te Puke Ariki: http://pukeariki.com/Learning-Research/Taranaki-Research-Centre/Taranaki-Stories/Taranaki-Story/id/410/title/the-von-tempsky-bowie-knife
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August 21, 2016 11:56am
Kriss X

Northland Wahine (1,193 comments) says:
August 21st, 2016 at 11:53 am
I love this moderation…not!

===============================

Steady on, we don’t want you to start eating people again. 🙂
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August 21, 2016 11:56am
Scott Hamilton

‘[The Queens Redoubt Trust interpretation centre] will be so biased to the cause of the noble savage that it will have been built at 45 degrees to the perpendicular’

What bias do you think the centre at Pokeno exhibits? I assume you haven’t actually visited it, or met any of the members of the Queen’s Redoubt Trust?
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August 21, 2016 11:58am
Northland Wahine

You’re safe Kriss X. Rabid meat is off the menu ?
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August 21, 2016 11:59am
Manolo

Tracking the candidates: http://www.latimes.com/politics/
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August 21, 2016 12:00pm
starboard

Do we really need 2 waitangi days with all shite, acid, and bile that accompanies ?
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August 21, 2016 12:01pm
Kriss X

You’re safe Kriss X. Rabid meat is off the menu

================================

Slim pickings around KB then.

stephieboy wants to know is it Halal ?
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August 21, 2016 12:02pm
Manolo

All in the name of AGW:
http://www.theamericanmirror.com/rich-hillary-flies-20-miles-private-jet-marthas-vineyard-nantucket/
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August 21, 2016 12:02pm
waikatosinger

stephieboy wants to know is it Halal ?

Long pork? I think not.
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August 21, 2016 12:03pm
tom hunter

I read Belich’s book twenty years ago, not long after it was published, because I love history. And I certainly appreciated his even-handed take on matters (aside from the silliness of talking up Maori as the leading edge of using trenches and trench warfare – he really should have talked to some military historians there).

The problem though, is that while Belich and others have made it clear how complex the war was and not just a matter of Good Maori vs. Bad White Settler – that’s not what I’ve grown up with. From at least high school through university, that was pretty much all I heard and read, whether it came from rabble rousers in University “discussion” groups, varsity papers, or the MSM.

And now I think it’s too late. I’d like to think that all these celebrations will be complex and non Black vs White – but our world is not wired that way, at least in terms of the media, where fire-breathing activitists are still the go-to choice of journalists. It’s outrageous and inflammatory and exciting and it gets people reading and watching and clicking. At least that’s the theory: I’d like to think that increasing numbers of people just switch off the MSM, who contribute nothing intelligent to these conversations.

But that’s a bigger force that is destroying the MSM, rather than anything to do with this issue specifically. For me at least, it’s decades too late: I won’t be tuning in because I think I’ll just hear the same White Guilt crap I’ve heard all my life. Yes, it’s history and it’s the history of my country – but it’s shrug-of-the-shoulders now for me. Just no longer interested.
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August 21, 2016 12:04pm
Manolo

stephieboy’s mates spread Islamic love: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37146531

An explosion near a wedding in the southern Turkish city of Gaziantep has killed at least 22 people and injured 94 more, the region’s governor says.

The Turkish government has called it a “terror attack” and suggested it was carried out by a suicide bomber.
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August 21, 2016 12:05pm
Kriss X

Manolo, Hillary is evil not stupid. She does not believe a small increase in plant food will bring the end of the world. Even Griff does not believe it, hence him setting up his Griffiavale compound in the warmest part of the country.

Trump has already won. His goal was to make the American people see the corrupt establishment for what it is. The cat is out of the bag now and there will be changes as a result. He will make America great again by making America think again.
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August 21, 2016 12:06pm
Keeping Stock

Nick Willis; bronze medal in the 1500m. You beauty 😀

He was anything but the fastest runner in the field, but he’s a racer, and as cunning as a fox. It was a slow race, which should have suited the sprinters, but Willis finished strongly in the last 50m to take a well-deserved medal.
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August 21, 2016 12:09pm
Griff

Scott I dont doubt that you have far more knowledge then me about early New Zealand history
My example was pointing out some of the difference between the narrative on official NZ sites and the realty.
I do not think it is acceptable for http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/war-in-waikato
To have such easily discredited and wrong information on it like “a few hundred kūpapa Māori warriors”
This is a symptom of the narrative being feed NZ from history sources captured by those who see colonization as evil and beyond redemption .
NZ history should report what is known truthfully and without bias I do not think what I linked to was in any way truthful or without bias .The tension between maori and settler at the time was a lot more complex than a pure power play between land holding maori and land grasping settlers. Questions of sovereignty and governance, the need for roads connecting thought the Waikato, threats of raids and sheltering lawless elements from else where was also part of the dynamic at play.
Our youth are being taught a very basic understanding that seems to only dwell on white settler bad maori in all aspect of early NZ .
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August 21, 2016 12:11pm
Kimbo

Great stuff, Nick Willis!

Redemption for his failure to fire a shot in London in 2012, and always marvelous to win a medal in what is a special Olympic event for New Zealand, the men’s 1500 metres athletics (Lovelock, Snell, Davies, Dixon, Walker and Willis once before)
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August 21, 2016 12:11pm
Jigsaw

MM- I didn’t say that historians had no agenda-you seem very good at misinterrupting and putting words in people’s mouths I have noticed. What I meant was that that someone like Cowan had the attitudes and agenda of a Victorian-he was of his age -how could he be anything else? Belich is of his age where through the TOW tribunal altering history is worth money -FACT. There are plenty of historians who have been told via the tribunal to alter their history and many of the decisions that have come out are frankly biased-provably! I offer as evidence the Tribunal decision on the events in Poverty Bay – read it!! Historians have to hold down jobs in universities -hardly impartial institutions you will no doubt have noticed.
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August 21, 2016 12:12pm
Scott Hamilton

‘I’d like to think that all these celebrations will be complex and non Black vs White – but our world is not wired that way’

The commemorations will, I’m sure, be different in different places. NZ is a very diverse place and the ways people remember the past are unavoidably different. But when I walked the Great South Road last year talking with people who lived near old battlesites about the wars, I did not find a simplification of the wars amongst Maori. Most of the Maori I met and talked with had ancestors who fought on both sides at battles like Orakau. They remembered those ancestors happily, without in any way defending the invasion of the Waikato. I don’t think there’s any contradiction between recognising the negative nature of a war and remembering the people who fought on both sides of that conflict. Many NZers who remember their ancestors who fought in WW1 also acknowledge the idiocy of that conflict. To do so isn’t to insult the dead. And the same is true, in my experience, with the Waikato War. One can recognise the shabby reasons for the conflict and the tragedies whilst still respectfully remembering the rank and file soldiers.

I found much less historical awareness amongst some Pakeha who lived near old battlesites. That was sad: they were missing out on the drama and meaning written on the landscapes all around them.
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August 21, 2016 12:13pm
mikenmild

+1 KS. Wonderful sprint finish. A silver in Beijing and now bronze puts him up among our very, very best, I believe.
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August 21, 2016 12:14pm
Keeping Stock

@ mikenmild – clearly someone disagrees.
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August 21, 2016 12:17pm
Scott Hamilton

‘Cowan had the attitudes and agenda of a Victorian-he was of his age’

Well, not really: he wrote his great book about the war more than a decade after the end of the Victorian era. And whilst Cowan was of course influenced by his time some of his techniques were ahead of his time, and are only being appreciated now. His extensive use of interviews, for example, was not at all fashionable in the first half of the twentieth century, when most historians preferred texts (Cowan used texts, too, of course, but he was keener on what he called ‘living documents’). But in recent decades interviewing has become much more fashionable, and Cowan has been appreciated anew.

That’s why it’s a bit daft to try to counterpose Cowan with contemporary historians like Anne Salmond and Judith Binney: he has very similar methods. James Belich, on the other hand, has a text-based approach that would not have been unconventional back in the ’20s. He likes to look for old documents that other people have overlooked.
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August 21, 2016 12:20pm
mikenmild

Jigsaw
I wonder if you have any evidence for anything in that rant. Do you think there is a team of academics censoring any history they don’t agree with.
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August 21, 2016 12:20pm
Scott Hamilton

‘I offer as evidence the Tribunal decision on the events in Poverty Bay – read it!’

Have you got a link? I know the TOW reports are online but I haven’t read that one.
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August 21, 2016 12:22pm
mikenmild

KS
If I was worried about downticks, I probably wouldn’t comment here.
Is this New Zealand’s best track and field performance overall? Four medals?
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August 21, 2016 12:22pm
Kriss X

Check out the “womans” line up in the 800m. Those cheeky darkies fielding men ! There is drug enhancement and there is taking the piss.
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August 21, 2016 12:24pm
Scott Hamilton

Griff, are you sure that the claim that the Crown forces which invaded the Waikato were assisted by only “a few hundred kūpapa Māori warriors” are ‘easily discredited and wrong’? I’m not aware that a large number of kupapa fought for the Crown during the invasion of the Waikato. There were some small iwi and sub-iwi, like Ngati Tipa, that belonged to Tainui and yet sided with the Crown, but their contributions to the invasion were minimal. And Te Arawa supported the Crown but their contribution was relatively small and mostly indirect – they stopped warriors crossing their territory to join the Kingite army.

The Crown didn’t really need kupapa in 1863, because it had a huge British force and colonial volunteers. Later, when the Brits got sick of sending troops to NZ, kupapa became very important, and they played a huge role in the war against Te Kooti.

So I don’t think the quote you offer makes a false claim.
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August 21, 2016 12:28pm
mikenmild

tom
Your trope of ‘Good Maori vs. Bad White Settler’ is not borne out by anything I have read. Maybe Tony Simpson’s Te Riri Pakeha came the closest.
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August 21, 2016 12:31pm
Kimbo

Is this New Zealand’s best track and field performance overall? Four medals?

I don’t usually engage with you but as it is a special occasion I will make an exception – almost. It equals Tokyo, 1964, four medals – Peter Snell, 2 gold (800 and 1500m double), John Davies (bronze in the 1500m), and…Marise Chamberlain (bronze in the women’s 800metres). But as we won no gold this time, Tokyo rated better…just

But not the overall team performance. Eighteen medals? Incredible!
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August 21, 2016 12:31pm
Keeping Stock

@ mikenmild – we won four medals in Tokyo in 1964. Peter Snell won the 800/1500 double, John Davies got a bronze in the men’s 1500m and Marise Chamberlain won bronze in the women’s 800m. That remains the benchmark.

This has been a very successful track and field programme though. It’s probably Willis’ last Olympics, but I suspect Valerie Adams has unfinished business, and Tom Walsh and Eliza McCarthy will be in their prime by then. It’s fantastic to see a rennaissance in a sport in which we have such a proud heritage.
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August 21, 2016 12:31pm
Kiwi Dave

Kimbo

You’re not usually snide. Instead of denigrating their credentials, read Butler and Maxwell; they both provide sources for their disagreements with others.

If the commemoration leads to a thoughtful and informed examination of our history, which then makes its way into the media as, for example, Scott Hamilton’s 11.44 comment, great; but will this happen?
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August 21, 2016 12:32pm
stigie

The RM poll is due out anytime, the last one had National on about 53%. I can imagine this poll will have the Nats down a bit and Liarbore up. Wait for the huge wankfest at the Stranded that there will be a Lab/Greens Government in 2017.

Of course when the Nats do go up, it is called a rogue poll by the echo chamber which is the Stranded !~
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August 21, 2016 12:33pm
Manolo

Are Longknives and Bruv still pissed after the rugby? How cheerful they must be!
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August 21, 2016 12:34pm
mikenmild

You don’t ‘engage’ with me Kimbo? I’m devastated.
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August 21, 2016 12:35pm
Kriss X

NZ is doing well at individual pursuits, which has always been our strong point. Track and field are real Olympic sports, unlike rugby which is just a game.

It is sad to see how corporate commercial rugby has seen our sporting heritage of individual pursuits pushed aside. These people have to not only beat the competition, but a lack of recognition, as commercial rugby takes all the air time and money.

They are also a pleasant change from the arrogant rapist thugs that play rugby.
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August 21, 2016 12:38pm
Kimbo

@ Dave the Kiwi

Kimbo

You’re not usually snide. Instead of denigrating their credentials, read Butler and Maxwell; they both provide sources for their disagreements with others….

Don’t be silly. I simply asked the question, “have they submitted their work for academic peer review”? Is a simple, “yes” or “no” answer. Doesn’t mean their work should be automatically discounted as having little or any merit. Indeed, much good work is done by non-formal academics. But it is a test of veracity and standards nonetheless, including methodology – and how conflicting sources are dealt with, reconciled and why some are chosen ahead of others.

I note Maxwell has a background in journalism. Fair enough, he obviously has some/much research and reporting skills, although if we are talking about bias, maybe a bit too much of a predilection for the controversial headline 😉

But as I mentioned, for all its faults, peer review is a form of hygiene.
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August 21, 2016 12:41pm
Scott Hamilton

‘The tension between maori and settler at the time was a lot more complex than a pure power play between land holding maori and land grasping settlers. Questions of sovereignty and governance’

I agree that questions of sovereignty were important to the war. But is this denied in any history used in school, or in any public museum? I think of the section of Auckland’s museum devoted to the NZ Wars, with its looped recording of the famous ‘there cannot be two suns in the sky’ speech.

‘sheltering lawless elements from else where was also part of the dynamic at play’

I’m not aware that the Waikato Kingdom was sheltering outlaws in the years before the 1863 invasion. After the war the rump of the kingdom in what’s today called the King Country became a haven for various refugees from colonial rule, including some accused criminals, who were sometimes the targets of bounty hunters. That’s a fascinating part of our history, and one I’ve been trying to research
http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2015/10/new-zealands-road-of-refugees.html
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August 21, 2016 12:41pm
Keeping Stock

Hey Kriss X – big bruv has hacked your account 😀
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August 21, 2016 12:42pm
Kriss X

Hey Kriss X – big bruv has hacked your account

==============================

Thanks but there are many of us that stand for decency and personal accomplishment. All things the polar opposite to NZ rugby culture.

I am talking about reality not marketing here.

You get an uptick for humour though 🙂
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August 21, 2016 12:44pm
sam green

Has church been cancelled?
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August 21, 2016 12:48pm
Kimbo

@ Dave the Kiwi

Correction: Butler!

Just to tease that out a bit more, while the skills of a journalist and an historian overlap in many places, the journalists’ need to “sell” the story, and sometimes even adopt a formal editorial stance when they write it up is a bit different from academics. Sure, the latter have a prism through which they view and critique – which is part of what they present to others to put under the microscope, especially in regards to methodology. This, if I’m reading the research and findings of a Marxist historian I can know what presuppositions I’m likely to encounter.

Not so with much journalism as those assumptions are not/seldom formally scrutinised – more tacitly understood. And that has an effect on what sources are chosen, and what are passed over or deemed of lesser weight.
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August 21, 2016 12:50pm
Kriss X

Has church been cancelled?

======================

Flu.

Thanks for your concern heathen.
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August 21, 2016 12:53pm
Stars And Stripes

“Many NZers who remember their ancestors who fought in WW1 also acknowledge the idiocy of that conflict.”

It’s always fine to make these judgements afterwards once you know the outcome but at the time there was nothing idiotic about it at all.
Countries were invaded by an aggressor and people had to fight against the aggressor to maintain sovereignty.
NZ had it’s allies and we did our bit with great distinction.
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August 21, 2016 12:53pm
cas

Peter Snell’s best times from the 1960s would have got him 6th in the 800m and 1st in the 1500m at this year’s Olympics!!!!
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August 21, 2016 12:58pm
stephieboy

Manolo (22,348 comments) says:
August 21st, 2016 at 12:05 pm

Another joyful day for you to celebrate more dead Muslims !
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August 21, 2016 1:00pm
sam green

Heathen? Moi?
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August 21, 2016 1:01pm
Fletch

So, are they actually going to give us a day off work for this Maori Wars thing, or will it just be a day named on the calendar? Govts seem very reticent to give more public holidays these days because of the old excuse that millions of dollars will be lost, etc…
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August 21, 2016 1:08pm
Jigsaw

MM- waste of time trying to debate with you when you insist on using terms like ‘rant’ for other people’s contributions to a debate when of course yours in never that is it? You also obviously don’t think that historians have no economic sense at all…..
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August 21, 2016 1:15pm
DJP6-25

Paulus @8:24 am. Yes, they’ve lost my vote too springing this PC garbage on us as a fait accompli.
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August 21, 2016 1:20pm
mikenmild

You also obviously don’t think that historians have no economic sense at all…..

I’m not sure what that double negative actually means, but fee free to advance any facts to support your argument.
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August 21, 2016 1:30pm
Kiwi Dave

Kimbo

My apologies for the unwarranted snide crack.

To answer your question, so far as I’m aware, neither’s publications have been peer reviewed. It’s my vague impression that Butler submitted a thesis on a topic of early NZ history, but I’m familiar only with his on-line columns which are usually more factual than interpretative and are responses to doubtful historical claims made in the media or to the Waitangi Tribunal.
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August 21, 2016 1:31pm
Griff

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cow01NewZ-c28.html
CHIEFS OF WAIKATO,—

Europeans living quietly on their own lands in Waikato have been driven away; their property has been plundered; their wives and children have been taken from them. By the instigation of some of you, officers and soldiers were murdered at Taranaki. Others of you have since expressed approval of these murders. Crimes have been committed in other parts of the Island, and the criminals have been rescued or sheltered under the colour of your authority.

You are now assembling in armed bands; you are constantly threatening to come down the river to ravage the Settlement of Auckland and to murder peaceable settlers. Some of you offered a safe passage through your territories to armed parties contemplating such outrages. The well-disposed among you are either unable or unwilling to prevent these evil acts. I am therefore compelled, for the protection of all, to establish posts at several points on the Waikato River, and to take necessary measures for the future security of persons inhabiting that district. The lives and property of all well-disposed people living on the river will be protected, and armed and evil-disposed people will be stopped from passing down the river to rob and murder Europeans.

I now call on all well-disposed natives to aid the Lieutenant-General to establish and maintain these posts, and to preserve peace and order.

Those who remain peaceably at their own villages in Waikato, or move into such districts as may be pointed out by the Government, will be protected in their persons, property, and land.

Those who wage war against Her Majesty, or remain in arms, threatening the lives of Her peaceable subjects, must take the consequences of thier acts, and they must understand that they will forfeit the right to the possession of their lands guaranteed to them by the Treaty of Waitangi, page 252 which lands will be occupied by a population capable of protecting for the future the quiet and unoffending from the violence with which they are now so constantly threatened.

Auckland, 11th July, 1863.

G. Grey, Governor.
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August 21, 2016 2:04pm
wikiriwhis business

Disabled Liberation Aotearoa NZ DLANZ comments….”A good read, as Grant Roberston highlights the inadequate methods of Social Research as foundations of Public Policy making decisions that are themselves flawed, and prone to being misused by this and consecutive governments.

Even back in 2001 when Whakanui Oranga / The NZ Disability Strategy was launched, it stated then, that over two thirds of our working age were not working. Not because they weren’t looking, but not as many opportunites were available DLANZ has said before Disability writers have commented about the sanitization of 19th and 20th century attempts on disabled and the poor in a Society’s drive for ideal types in their ‘Perfect World Order’ (B. Gleeson 1996) and including the history of eugenics and colonization here in Aotearoa NZ (H.Stace 1997) The dependency model of disability taking disabled out of of employment data is still the continuation of seeing our existence being further labeled as unproductive, and as such unworthy of recognition.

Definitions of ‘actively seeking wok’ were not are not helped when governments continue to run with these models driven by economic and profits, rather than folk and Whenua of Aortearoa. I think it was noted Maori Academic Leonie Pihama who mentioned the data of comapative research between ‘have and have nots’ is based on models from the USA Color bars, and not Indigenous

This John Key led Coalition has thumbed its nose to its Sovereign obligations to Te Tiriti o Waitangi 1840, and a similar for Disabled People
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August 21, 2016 2:08pm
Scott

Great that stephieboy has seen 3 Muslim women drinking coffee peaceably in a Mount Roskill cafe.

That certainly does it for me. Don’t worry about anything else-newsflash – Muslims drink coffee in cafe peacefully!

This is the key fact that should inform all of our foreign policy. Pull out of the Middle East. Invite more Muslims to New Zealand. We need thousands of them because stephieboy knows that we can confidently expect these thousands of Muslims to sit in cafes drinking coffee and no violence will occur.

It’s amazing! There is absolutely no chance of jihad or terrorist attacks or any violence by Muslims in NZ! How could we have been so wrong.

Thank you stephieboy for putting us right.
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August 21, 2016 2:21pm
Viking2

Those pesky expensive and yet failing Student Loans.

Suppose you left tertiary study with the median student loan balance, inflation adjusted upwards from the most recent stats available: $16,700. And suppose that you followed the typical earnings path for someone with a Bachelors degree, as published in the most recent StudyLink data. Finally, suppose that you paid only the minimum 12% on every dollar earned above the threshold. If the interest rate were 2%, it would take an extra three months to pay off your loan. If the interest rate were 4%, it would take an extra 6 months. At 6%, it would take an extra 10 months. At 8%, 14 extra months. None of these are especially terrifying figures.

More;http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/83183/nz-initiatives-khyaati-acharya-eric-crampton-argue-better-tertiary-preparation

Things need changing.
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August 21, 2016 2:22pm
Kimbo

@ Griff

Auckland, 11th July, 1863.

G. Grey, Governor.

First time I’ve seen you favourably quote a sabre-rattling politician, Griff, especially when it was most likely a pretext rather than a reason for Crown hostilities. Just a hippie when it suits, eh? 😉
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August 21, 2016 2:23pm
Kimbo

Just as well General Cameron didn’t build the Great South Road to invade…Cambodia 😉
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August 21, 2016 2:34pm
wikiriwhis business

Protestors attack J Keys home

and his yes men attacked the people (including the protesters) in their homes. He did this with legislation to take away rights, to take away the right to a home, by taking away the means to feed the family, he attacked them in their homes and to away their right and ability to live a good life and turned them into slaves and allowed foreigners to come to their homes and take away those homes along with their jobs.

Wonder if he called them paid protestors as he always does.
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August 21, 2016 2:35pm
Griff

I dont Know were you get hippy from.
Steel caps, skinny jeans and a shaven head .
That is a hippy ?
Not in any world I have ever been in .
I might be “alt” Living my life how is see it should be .
But I dont do crystals, group hugs and woo spirituality .
Ever.

sabre-rattling politician?
The saber rattling or tongue poking and spear brandishing along with some nice harmless settler slaughtering was coming from another source.
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August 21, 2016 2:37pm
Kriss X

I dont Know were you get hippy from.
Steel caps, skinny jeans and a shaven head

================================

Self loathing bogan.

Explains a lot.
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August 21, 2016 2:40pm
Kimbo

@ Griff

I dont Know were you get hippy from.
Steel caps, skinny jeans and a shaven head .
That is a hippy ?
Not in any world I have ever been in .
I might be “alt” Living my life how is see it should be .
But I dont do crystals, group hugs and woo spirituality .
Ever.

Fair enough. I was assuming your anti-militarism, recreational drug use, and advocacy, and opting out of the usual norms of social discourse (the “tone fallacy”) added up to “hippy”, but I stand corrected. But yes, the eschewing of spirituality should have given it away…
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August 21, 2016 2:43pm
Griff

Troll
Psychological characteristics
The 2013 study found that trolls often have a high expectation of what it means to be successful, which is higher than they are able to attain, and this results in them resenting others
Poor poor pitiful little parrot.
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August 21, 2016 2:50pm
Kriss X

Griff, how about you back that up with a graph from your climate change conspiracy site that your name links to ? 🙂
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August 21, 2016 2:53pm
stephieboy

Scott , it was actually a Mt Albert cafe which reminds us that these Muslim mothers do the things ordinary NZ mothers do and are not busy plotting suicide bombings etc according to your deluded and paranoid mind .

A Trump mind if I’m correct ?
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August 21, 2016 3:04pm
Griff

My dear broken little parrot.
I dont bother with trying to debate with people who are mentally unwell.
Coming here trying to troll only gets you more and more wound up until it consumes your life as we can see by the obsessive nature of the many comments you have made towards me .
Best you either go see a professional to sort out your issues or find some outlet were you can validate your pitiful life .
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August 21, 2016 3:05pm
Jigsaw

MM- You obviously don’t think that historians have any economic senses -THEY WANT TO KEEP THEIR JOBS!
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August 21, 2016 3:11pm
Stars And Stripes

“Maori King wants Maori share in NZ sovereignty by 2025”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=

“King Tuheitia used a landmark speech commemorating his 10th anniversary on the throne today to propose a formal role for Maori in the country’s leadership”

Here we go again, bit by bit inch by inch.
Actually seems very reminiscent of how Muslims take a country over.
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August 21, 2016 3:13pm
Reid

Leaked documents released a few days ago provide juicy insider details of how a fabulously rich businessman has been using his money to influence elections in Europe, underwrite an extremist group, target U.S. citizens who disagreed with him, dictate foreign policy, and try to sway a Supreme Court ruling, among other things. Pretty compelling stuff, right?

Not if it involves leftist billionaire George Soros. In this case, the mainstream press couldn’t care less.

On Saturday, a group called DC Leaks posted more than 2,500 documents going back to 2008 that it pilfered from Soros’ Open Society Foundations’ servers. Since then, the mainstream media have shown zero interest in this gold mine of information…

http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/the-bizarre-media-blackout-of-hacked-george-soros-documents/
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August 21, 2016 3:14pm
tom hunter

At least 13 people are dead, more than 85,000 people have applied for federal disaster aid, 30,000 people needed to be rescued and 40,000 displaced. State officials report it is easily the biggest housing crunch since Sandy.

In Livingston Parish, officials report as many as 75 percent of the 52,000 homes there had been damaged by floodwaters. In Ascension Parish, water had seeped into one of every three homes.

Sounds like it’s really bad in Louisiana, but the political reactions sound worse: USA Today: A compassionate Obama was absent

There’s even been accusations of unconscious, endemic racism, of all things: CBS News: What If They Were White?

And so of course Jesse Jackson has to get in on the action… Jesse Jackson lashes out at Obama over flood response

“Today, as the President comes to Louisiana, for his ceremonial trip to look at the victims of the devastation, he would do well to have a plan more significant than a ceremonial tour,” Jackson said Friday. “His whole response is unacceptable.”

If you think that’s harsh, look at this: Kanye West Rips Obama at Telethon, saying that America is set up…

“to help the poor, the black people, the less well-off as slow as possible.”

Although this piece from Slate was a little more thoughtful and generous to the President as he tries to deal with the flooding, An Imperfect Storm: How race shaped Obama’s response.

It’s very sad that our MSM has descended to such depths. I’d bet that if George W. Bush was president right now and playing golf with celebrities in one of the richest zip codes in the country while this was going on, the headlines everywhere would still portray him as decent, intelligent man trying to deal with a disaster as best he could.
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August 21, 2016 3:14pm
Jigsaw

Kimbo- Just brings more division at the present moment. You may or may not be aware that there is a book that details where most of the north island battlefields are but actually finding them is almost impossible in many cases because anything put up at the sites of a battle offends one side of the other and ends up being destroyed. At Rangiriri last time I was there a detail written by Maori about Von Tempski was entirely one sided and a total waste of time. Until we can view our history in a detached way -probably after claims finish (if that ever happens!) – then we are best to leave the whole thing alone. The comment by Maggie Barry with regard to the Land Wars casalties compared with WW1 was just monstrous!
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August 21, 2016 3:19pm

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