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September 12, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 12 September 2024

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General Debate

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peterwn

So Du Val minority shareholders are upset that the Statutory Managers are not paying any attention to their plight. This would be because shareholders are the last in the queue when any company is liquidated. If they are shareholders of a particular Du Val company (as is likely) at the worst they can kiss goodbye to getting any of their money back or at best the particular company being treated as unsecured creditor and getting a bit back (assuming their company is an unsecured creditor of other parts of the group). Possibly these minority shareholders could argue that they were subject to undue influence to convert their debt instruments to shares and therefore the Statutory Manager should treat these ‘shareholders’ as creditors. However they would need to convince the Minister of this position or get together and seek a court ruling on the matter.
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September 12, 2024 8:01am
- RoboRob
  
  Shareholders = owners. As you say the owners of a company are the last in line to get any residuals.
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:08am
- john1234
  
  Mom & Pop investors should never have gone near DV, and the one particular reason they were able to was DV offering investment products to “Wholesale Investors” to get around the rules for retail investment products. Highly questionable by DV and naive by Mom & Pop. The retail investment rules are there to protect naive investors and DV bypassed them by calling their products “Wholesale”. It would appear the FMA are not buying it hence their (and the police’s) involvement. Interested to see which certified investment advisors/accountants/lawyers signed off on the DV investors’ Eligible Investor status.
  I see rattling keys in the DV owners’ future. Well I hope so. This reminds me of the Watson/Hotchkin Hanover disaster; Related party loans propping up sick projects while the owners raked dividends out of the corpse.
  
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  September 12, 2024 10:22am
  - peterwn
    
    You cannot declare yourself to be a ‘wholesale’ investor – you need a certification from accountant, lawyer, financial adviser or other authorised person. Seems Du Val took the mom and pop investors round to a lawyer to certify that they were ‘wholesale’ investors so some lawyer may also end up making pots in the Wairarapa.
    
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    September 12, 2024 10:59am
    - john1234
      
      Hence my comment above: “Interested to see which certified investment advisors/accountants/lawyers signed off on the DV investors’ Eligible Investor status”
      
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      September 12, 2024 7:04pm
Frank the tank

Who produces the more complicated and nonsensical word salads – Jacinda Ardern or Kamala Harris?
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September 12, 2024 8:10am
- Tauhei Notts
  
  A racing commentator would say;
  “this is so close the judge will call for the camera. There only noses (ears?) in it”
  I will give the Kackling one the “nod.
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:01am
  - john1234
    
    The racehorse analogy is particularly apt!
    I see the winner as Kamala by a nose. Her word salad is repetitive, nonsensical babble. Jacinda’s is calculated bumper sticker slogans.
    
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    September 12, 2024 10:24am
- sherp
  
  Harris word salad is certainly more hypocritical as she spews hatred while denouncing division…
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:01am
  - Conservatarian
    
    You get to say whatever you want when you have the two ABC “moderators” clearly on your side to make the debate a 3 on 1 and the on-call “fact checkers” who don’t in fact check your lies:
    
    The “very fine people” hoax (yet again)
    The “brave policemen died because of the violence on Jan 6” hoax (yet again)
    The infamous Ralph Northam radio interview discussing Virginia’s contemplation of infanticide if a baby survives the murder attempt, which abortion fanatics love but [yet again] pretend doesn’t exist.
    Trump endorses the Project 2025 agenda
    …
    
    Yet again Regime Media proves that its agenda is to promote the interests of the regime at all costs. They hate the common man.
    
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    September 12, 2024 10:43am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Best word soup waffle is from Kamal Ardern.
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:21am
- tknorriss
  
  I get it that you likely prefer Trump. I don’t particularly like either of the candidates. So, I guess I am an objective observer.
  
  I think a cold hard analysis would show that Harris clearly won that debate.
  
  Trump let himself get triggered by Harris and let himself go off on all sorts of convoluted, crazy rants. For instance, the claim that illegal immigrants were eating family pets. And, he said something about Harris “putting out”, whatever he meant by that. But probably not the wisest sort of comment given his recent history in the courts.
  
  If he had stayed calm, and focussed on the economy he probably would have won.
  
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  September 12, 2024 10:52am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    How the hell do you think she won? She couldn’t answer questions on her past, she couldn’t answer questions on her VP failure, she simply repeated bullshit from what she spouts every time you hear her. Telling people housing is shocking, inflation is shocking when she was the VP is utterly pathetic.
    
    Also New York Times poll showed Trump win easily
    
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    September 12, 2024 10:58am
    - tknorriss
      
      I didn’t say I agreed with her. I think a lot of her policies are nutty tbh.
      
      The only reason I think she won was because she managed to trigger Trump. And also, she seemed to speak with more compassion than Trump, and stayed calm.
      
      I see her as doing a Jacinda in this election. If she wins she will likely end up being loathed. But, on that debate performance she clearly was the winner.
      
      In these sorts of debates, the facts are largely irrelevant. It is who handles themselves the best more than anything else IMO.
      
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      September 12, 2024 11:18am
      - Don Beckett
        
        “For instance, the claim that illegal immigrants were eating family pets.”
        You are wrong in saying that was a crazy rant – it is true. There have been news items pointing that out. The “moderator/fact checkers were lying – just as Kamal did with many of her claims.
        
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        September 12, 2024 11:58am
      - tknorriss
        
        Trump should have had this covered off though. If he was going to make this claim in the debate, he should have been able to support the claim with evidence, and thus get ahead of the game.
        
        Again, I am just judging on the basis of the debate. Trump was rambling and going off track a lot. From a purely debating perspective, Harris clearly won that particular debate.
        
        As I said, nothing to do with the policies. As I said above, I think Harris has some crazy policies herself.
        
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        September 12, 2024 1:28pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        I agree that Trump arguably lost the debate – but Kamal didn’t beat him – the ABC moderators beat him.
        
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        September 12, 2024 2:08pm
      - Hard Cheese
        
        @Don Beckett
        
        “For instance, the claim that illegal immigrants were eating family pets.”
        You are wrong in saying that was a crazy rant – it is true. There have been news items pointing that out. The “moderator/fact checkers were lying – just as Kamal did with many of her claims
        
        Produce ONE verifiable report of it from a reputable news source. And by that I don’t mean “I saw some person on Facebook who said it” or “a story on patriotpulse.com says it’s true”.
        
        Trump is a 100% certifiable, bolted-on imbecile. The fact that you defend his lunacy is hilarious.
        
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        September 12, 2024 3:28pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Hard cheese, your TDS is showing rantingly bigly.
        
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        September 12, 2024 4:45pm
      - Ghost
        
        So that is a no you cannot provide any evidence, of which there is none, the claim originally came from a Facebook post.
        
        It’s getting rather boring and pathetic that if someone doesn’t agree with trump, people automatically claims tds, grow up
        
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        September 12, 2024 4:52pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Cheese I’d say even if you happened across an immigrant toasting a duck on a stick in the park right in front of you, you’d claim it was a right wing false flag set up. Time to head back to reddit?
        
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        September 12, 2024 6:42pm
  - Conservatarian
    
    You still don’t understand Trump after all these years. Trump’s comments on the pets being eaten sound fantastical, but they had been reported before the debate, just by alternative media and not by Regime Media. The fact checker from ABC claimed there were “no credible reports” of the pet-eating. All this means is that a regime media operative from the nearest big city (Cincinnati or Columbus) has not been sent to Springfield, Ohio, to confirm this story, or the city government has not yet confirmed the story. Because it is evidence of the failures of the regime.
    
    Further, Trump’s comments will get ordinary voters to go and search for themselves the Springfield story (20k migrants, mostly Haitian illegals, added to a town of 60k in just four years). Those voters will land on alternative media sources and they find out the story is bad, even if they cannot find references to pets being eaten. The purpose is to get people to search for the story.
    
    Springfield residents went to city hall to complain about the Haitian problems. See this video from Chris Martenson (18 min):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCjjQfksFak
    
    About 2 minutes in, a real person on struggle street who lives in Springfield (the black man in the red hoodie and red Cincinnati Reds baseball cap) describes his experiences to city hall of all the driving accidents he’s witnessed and how the Haitian migrants have been in the parks capturing ducks to eat. That’s not far off “pets being eaten”.
    
    Then at 6 mins in, another real person (a white man in a black t-shirt and black baseball hat) posts a video describing how his car insurance premiums skyrocket, and the insurance company attributes the rises to all the recent claims in the area.
    
    Then at 9 mins there’s the clip of Harris explaining how the problems started: she simply let the Haitians in, and then extended their stay. She refused to block or deport them.
    
    It’s a simple premise: do you believe real people’s experiences of illegal immigration, or do you believe the regime’s covering up of the problem because it sounds “kind” to libs?
    
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    September 12, 2024 11:33am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I watched the guy telling folk that the Haitians were eating ducks. He sounded credible.
      
      Trump’s problem is that he just yells “They are eating pets”. He would have been better off recounting the testimony of the folks in Springfield Ohio as an example of the damages caused by these immigrants.
      
      Honestly, if someone told me that folk in Christchurch were chasing after Canadian geese and ducks in the Avon River and eating them, I would not bat an eyelid. 🙂 So Haitians killing animals in Ohio, yeah sounds totally plausible to me.
      
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      September 12, 2024 1:07pm
      - Conservatarian
        
        Yes, you are right here Benedict. Trump struggles at times (maybe often) to deliver the precise language required to get the message across to those he needs to hear it. His blunt, simple words and concepts are enjoyed by ordinary people who don’t like the slick language of the politician or lawyer. However, his same style gives the educated, pro-establishment types conditioned to that slick language the yips because he offends their sense of aesthetics.
        
        His line at the end to Harris – something like “So why haven’t you done it?” when referring to her promising all these things from a future presidency when she has been in a position of authority to do all these things for 4 years – should have been in his opening response and should have been hammered home all night.
        
        Harris did get under his skin a bit. She has somehow eliminated her awful laugh from her game, which is a plus for her. She was better than I thought she would be. But she had plenty of help from the moderators.
        
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        September 12, 2024 1:31pm
    - Hard Cheese
      
      how the Haitian migrants have been in the parks capturing ducks to eat. That’s not far off “pets being eaten”.
      
      Conservatarian at the top of the podium in mental gymnastics. Duck people eat regularly as food. “Family pets” like dogs and cats, not so much.
      
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      September 12, 2024 4:48pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Cheese this will be like the Covington kids. Deny deny deny, until hey presto, it turns out the media were utterly full of it and yes a ton of immigrants dumped on a small town (Springfield I believe) had some of them resorting to catching park ducks and other animals to eat. From what I saw in twitter a few days ago there is quite substantial video evidence of this being cold hard fact. If you look at the utterly foolish border policies of Kamala and the current clown gang, then none of this is surprising.
        
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        September 12, 2024 6:49pm
      - Hard Cheese
        
        @NZer In Exile
        
        From what I saw in twitter a few days ago there is quite substantial video evidence of this being cold hard fact.
        
        LOL!! “From what I saw in twitter…”
        
        Do you not understand the distinction between ducks in a park and family pets? A family pet is a dog or a cat. Come back to me when you have verifiable evidence from a reputable source of immigrants eating family pets. And no, “what you saw in twitter” does not constitute a reputable source.
        
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        September 12, 2024 11:19pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    Interesting how people decide who “won” the Presidential debate.
    
    TKN, So what is the cold hard analysis you refer to?
    
    Number of facts, number of lies, number of obfuscations?
    
    Who lost the plot the most
    
    Who smiled the most
    
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    September 12, 2024 1:27pm
  - nzgoose
    
    The unfortunate thing is Trump will spout these accusations (which are probably true as some immigrants may normally eat cats/dogs and they probably have little money so will be finding food sources where they can) but not have accepted sources to back up the accusation. I believe He also has a tendancy to exaggerate, If he could just tone some of the wild exaggerations he would have a better chance.
    
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    September 12, 2024 2:30pm
  - Hard Cheese
    
    @Don Beckett
    
    Come on Don, where’s your ONE verifiable report of family pets being eaten?
    
    It might serve your argument better than hurling the lazy “TDS” response at anyone pointing out your hero is a prime quality fruitcake.
    
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    September 12, 2024 5:58pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Let’s get the ground rules agreed to first so nobody wriggles out of this. What is your criteria for a report on this being “verifiable” Cheese?
      
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      September 12, 2024 6:53pm
      - Hard Cheese
        
        One story from a reputable news sourced backed by eyewitness evidence, photographs or video of an immigrant eating someone’s family pet – and you obviously know what a family pet is. It’s a dog, cat, rabbit or such. It’s not a wild duck in a park.
        
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        September 12, 2024 11:24pm
    - Don Beckett
      
      Just saw your comment. Here is a copy of a comment down thread from kevn – but I doubt you’ll give it any credit.
      
      kevn
      Conserv… Inconveniently, other nefarious uses.
      Who wooda thort.
      From an insider.
      https://x.com/WallStreetApes/status/1833981036289753558
      
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      September 12, 2024 8:05pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        BTW, Trump is not my hero – in fact I agree with many people here that ho is not necessarily an ideal person. However, no-one can deny that during his presidency, the USA boomed and he was the prime driver.
        Trump may not be good for peoples’ blood pressure – but IMO he is good for the USA.
        
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        September 12, 2024 8:08pm
  - sherp
    
    http://stantoncountysheriff.com/2023/02/28/two-honduran-nationals-cited-for-killing-and-possessing-an-american-bald-eagle/
    
    On Tuesday afternoon at about 4:00 p.m. the Stanton County Sheriff’s office responded to a report of a suspicious vehicle just northwest of the main Wood Duck Recreation Area that is located about three miles southwest of Stanton. The vehicle was located in a field and while having contact with the two males it was determined that they had a dead North American Bald Eagle in their possession. Further investigation revealed that the two had shot and killed the protected national bird in that area and stated they planned on cooking and eating the bird.
    
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    September 12, 2024 9:48pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Harris appears to be replicating Ardern bullshit salad. Harris is even flashing the choppers like the horse.
  
  How anyone can say she won the debate is beyond me, she was simply reading rehearsed bullshit, and she was telling lies on every issue
  
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  September 12, 2024 10:55am
  - AitchW
    
    G I’ve heard reports that Harris won by a country mile, that Trump hit it out of the park and everything in between. I heard HDPA excoriated on her show yesterday for being a lefty and a far right activist for her opinion on the debate.
    I didn’t listen to the debate because the pair of them are both ghastly, and I pity the American voter because the country is buggered regardless of which is elected.
    What I’m trying to say is that American politics are so polarised and tribal that it’s almost impossible to get an objective report on the debate.
    
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    September 12, 2024 11:34am
    - Conservatarian
      
      Aitch, you should probably find a replay of the debate on YouTube and make up your own mind. If you don’t have 90 mins I suggest you turn up the speed to 1.5x and you can watch it in 60 minutes. I’ve only heard the audio.
      
      You should also be aware of the medium in which the debate was held. The debate was televised by ABC, a free-to-air private corporation, whose presidential election coverage runs exclusively pro-Harris and anti-Trump pieces. You should also be aware that the head of ABC News was the person who introduced Harris to her future husband Doug Emhoff. They are all friends.
      
      You may note instances where Trump has Harris on the run, and then suddenly the moderators call time on the topic. In the reverse, no such time limits are apparent. Or where the moderators frame a topic to say here’s why Trump is awful, or only merely bad, and now Harris can you please comment on whether Trump is awful or merely bad.
      
      It’s like an All Blacks v Springboks game in Johannesburg in 1970, refereed by a home town referee and touch judges, except that the officiating crew also makes tackles on the All Blacks when they make a break.
      
      Other than that, the debate was conducted in a completely impartial manner.
      
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      September 12, 2024 12:54pm
    - Graeme Hall
      
      Who cares about who said what? Look at specific policies instead of personalities then compare.
      
      Who actually has demonstrated by their policies that they have improved the state of their country & its people? Policies affect lives, comments do not.
      
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      September 12, 2024 2:15pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Kamala Harris has Policies?
        Wonder what they are?
        Oh, vote her in to find out the Policies.
        
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        September 12, 2024 4:00pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    The stupidly rigged “debate” means little. The memes are what people pay attention to these days!
    
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    September 12, 2024 6:55pm
JJ56

I see Palmer is banging on about the ToW Principles Bill being a “political stunt” and lacking the kind of consideration and debate needed for such a constitutional change.

Just like the ToW Principles clause in his SoE Act that created this problem in the first place.
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September 12, 2024 8:12am
- igm
  
  Palmer should be in stocks as he indirectly, is responsible for most ills in NZ, especially the problems with society.
  Even his Local Government Amendments have proven catastrophic.
  May he just shrivel up and go away, he is a disease looking for a place to happen.
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:54am
  - KH
    
    Palmer has great delivery. It masks his utter stupidity well.
    When he starts pronouncing, the correct thing is the opposite.
    
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    September 12, 2024 10:09am
- PurplePen
  
  “ToW Principles Bill being a “political stunt” and lacking the kind of consideration and debate needed for such a constitutional change”.
  
  Well isn’t there debate occurring as we write? And the bill has only just been introduced so no there wouldn’t be much debate nor consideration yet. And if it’s a political stunt, it’s a heck of a lot of effort and potential downside for just a stunt.
  
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  September 12, 2024 10:16am
artemisia

Herald today. Health targets and gaming the system to look like meeting them. Minister Reti has received advice from officials and has said he is aware of previous gaming.

In May, Ministry of Health officials briefed Reti on managing the “potential for gaming and unintended consequences of health targets”. It cited previous research on ED wait time targets that found gaming – deliberately making performance appear better than it was – had occurred and sometimes facilitated by senior management given the “perception of high stakes”.

‘Gaming’ sounds rather innocuous. Except that it actually means falsely manipulating records so the bosses CYA and don’t get smacked when they should be getting the ‘please explain’.
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September 12, 2024 8:13am
- rouppe
  
  The minister should simply say that any evidence of gaming will result in a disciplinary action with a view to termination.
  
  People should view the statistics as an opportunity, not a stick to beat them with. If they are under the target, i would expect some focus from the MoH to help unlock some efficiency to improve performance, not some sort of “punishment”.
  
  Gaming is what you’d expect from a 5th former.
  
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  September 12, 2024 8:19am
  - KH
    
    There are ED departments that built another side room to stick people in. Carefully described as not the ED department.
    Voila. No longer in ED. Target times for stay met.
    Magic
    
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    September 12, 2024 10:12am
  - PurplePen
    
    Only termination of admin or non-medical managers tho as we need an the med staff we can’t get.
    
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    September 12, 2024 10:17am
    - peterwn
      
      Medical people trying such stunts should be sent to a 12 months locum somewhere in the wop-wops. Doc Hollywood style.
      
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      September 12, 2024 11:04am
    - AitchW
      
      Purple pen on the surface your suggestion makes sense. And that approach should be extended to every government department.
      The problem with that, given that the hostile and sabotagey ( I know it’s not a word) public service is so riddled with incompetent and devious staff, particularly in the middle and upper management that if all the schemers and no hopers were sacked there’d be very few left.
      
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      September 12, 2024 11:21am
  - Paulus
    
    A Minister has no responsibility for employment of any staff, like in Local Government, the CEO is the only employer – well done Helen Clark !
    
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    September 12, 2024 10:56am
    - rouppe
      
      Sure, but ultimately the minister must be able to apply pressure to someone.
      
      My view of the targets are that they should be viewed as a signal, not a pass/fail test.
      
      The first people who should be acting on those signals are the hospital ceo. If they find they can’t make any performance improvements to get closer to the target – which is possible – then a clear report detailing what they’ve looked at, or tried, or adjusted, where the need is should be prepared for the minister.
      
      The minister should then inject an observer into the hospital, with the authority to examine any part of it, to see if the report is accurate.
      
      Ceo is telling lies, they’re fired. Ceo is in genuine need, they are helped.
      
      We shouldn’t need the observer to check. But my confidence in the proprietry of the health system leadership is very very low
      
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      September 12, 2024 12:22pm
      - Ian Boag
        
        My view of the targets are that they should be viewed as a signal, not a pass/fail test.
        
        If I read it right, these targets have a six-year time frame. Wot?
        
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        September 12, 2024 8:22pm
- cmm
  
  It isn’t really just false manipulation of records. Rather, it was modification of practices to be able to claim something has been done or some condition exists.
  
  The problem is when practices are modified to meet the numbers but that is done in a way which:
  * does not actually improve the true treatment times.
  * results in activities which are not actually beneficial for the patient.
  ie. practices get modified to make the numbers look good (or bad), depending on what their goals are.
  
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  September 12, 2024 8:25am
- judith8409121
  
  would gaming health targets be something like, you know, saying people who died of a gun shot died of covid (and many other deaths recorded as covid as well) – if he’s looking into gaming health that would be a biggy?
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:22am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  The officials are very carefully looking after their jobs. Very carefully.
  They don’t want the DCM.
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:24am
Swifty

I’m sure Mike would agree with me that this confirms the CTU as a mere astroturf outfit, a propaganda mouthpiece for the Labour Party but masquerading as a union solely representing worker interests.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/527744/extremely-conservative-estimate-suggests-4m-cost-to-progress-treaty-principles-bill
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September 12, 2024 8:15am
- sherp
  
  Wow a bill cost money to draft… in other news the sky is blue
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:03am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I agree with David Seymour.
  “If there was no Treaty Principles Bill, those people would still be working at the government and getting paid the same amount of money. So actually the cost is zero, or alternatively you could say the cost is another bill they otherwise would have been working on.”
  Propaganda from the left.
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:08am
  - MCōs
    
    Why not have them fill potholes then, because they’re obviously not needed elsewhere
    Of course there could be a backlog of bills in which case this lame duck legislation should be shunted to the back of the queue
    
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    September 12, 2024 9:26am
    - Yabster
      
      if they filled potholes at least they would be useful- a rare good idea MCos..
      
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      September 12, 2024 9:34am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      This Bill is also a vote harvester. There is a long term game going on here.
      All power to Seymour circumventing Luxon’s nonsense.
      
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      September 12, 2024 9:57am
      - greybeard
        
        That is how I see it as well, S.O.
        The public reaction to the first reading will be very interesting. We already know of the views of the left, through the Maori Party and the unions.
        
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        September 12, 2024 10:33am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Yes it is absurd. The parliamentary counsel code their time to whatever bills they are writing. They are always fully occupied so if this Bill did not exist they would just code some other bill. 🙄
    
    I would have guessed that the Treaty Principles Bill is a very inexpensive Bill.
    
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    September 12, 2024 9:35am
Yvette

Waitangi Tribunal –

• 6. Government’: ‘kawanatanga‘. There could be no possibility of the Māori signatories having any understanding of government in the sense of ‘sovereignty’: ie, any understanding on the basis of experience or cultural precedent.
https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/treaty-of-waitangi/translation-of-te-reo-maori-text/

• The term used in the te reo Māori text, ‘kawanatanga‘, was a transliteration of the word ‘governance’, which was then in current use. Māori understanding of this word came from familiar use in the New Testament of the Bible (when referring to the likes of Pontius Pilate), and from their knowledge of the role of the Governor of New South Wales, whom they referred to as ‘Kawana’.
https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/treaty-of-waitangi/meaning-of-the-treaty/.
________

• Early Waitangi Tribunal reports confirmed there was no cession of sovereignty, and derived the relevant “principles” from te Tiriti. The Crown could live with that, albeit unhappily for the then prime minister, Robert Muldoon, because the tribunal’s powers were limited to recommendations on historical claims.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/527566/rewriting-history-how-the-treaty-principles-evolved-and-why-they-don-t-stand-up-to-scrutiny

• Treaty Signatories Did Not Cede Sovereignty in February 1840 – Tribunal. The rangatira who signed te Tiriti o Waitangi in February 1840 did not cede sovereignty to the British Crown, the Waitangi Tribunal has concluded.
https://waitangitribunal.govt.nz/news/report-on-stage-1-of-the-te-paparahi-o-te-raki-inquiry-released-2/

While contradicting itself over what Maori in 1840 understood of sovereignty, the Tribunal is emphatic that rangatira who signed the Treaty of Waitangi did not cede that sovereignty.

Why then did Kiingi Tūheitia call for the Treaty of Waitangi to be written into legislation so politicians “can’t change nothing” [1], without questioning the Government’s right to even make legislation – if, as the Tribunal claims, Maori did not cede sovereignty?

Does Christopher Luxon not understand the need now raised, by media reports and comment, that the Government he heads needs to determine for all New Zealanders that it actually legally has the right to government?

Media seem to have pulled back on an item, earlier this morning, giving a silly $4 million costing of ACTs proposed bill, but I would think even if that had any credibility in face of the $1+ billion Labour bride in 3 Waters, it would be worth the clarification the proposed committee stage could bring.

____________
[1] http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/maori-king-calls-for-hope-over-protest-while-dismissing-govt-treaty-bill/M2EXZG3JLNHTPFKEEUFK7Z5QXY/
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September 12, 2024 8:19am
- pdm
  
  `Does Christopher Luxon not understand the need now raised, by media reports and comment, that the Government he heads needs to determine for all New Zealanders that it actually legally has the right to government?’
  
  Luxon just wants to be – all things to all people.
  
  Even above that he wants to be friends with Maori Activists because next election they might vote for him.
  
  That Christopher Luxon is never going to happen so it is time you stood tall and did the right thing for all New Zealanders.
  
  You too Winston Peters.
  
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  September 12, 2024 8:55am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    By his non-actions, Luxon is an activist.
    
    10 5
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    September 12, 2024 9:28am
- sherp
  
  Yet the same people who signed the treaty voted for a government representatives…. but were ignorant savages who couldn’t possibly understand what that means
  
  10 2
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  September 12, 2024 9:05am
- PurplePen
  
  “There could be no possibility of the Māori signatories having any understanding of government in the sense of ‘sovereignty’”.
  
  That’s a bit insulting suggesting Maori didn’t have the ability to comprehend new concepts and strucures and add them to their greatly lauded matauranga maori. In any case, Maori travelled to England and back and met with all sorts by that time and were also acutely aware of the threat from the French and Germans. This shows they must have acquired quite a bit of how the then modern world operated.
  
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  September 12, 2024 10:24am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Correct Purple.
    The excuse from activists today that the signatories had the wool pulled over their eyes is insulting to them.
    I would say that the agreement of the crown to pay money for land was a big incentive to sign.
    Signatories on both sides did so according to human nature. It wasn’t a rescue package for maori, it was an agreement meant to benefit both parties individually and collectively.
    Today’s activists,unfortunately, think every day is 6/2/1840
    
    8 1
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    September 12, 2024 10:58am
  - Paulus
    
    But repeating myself the following as pertinent
    1855 estimted as somewhat correct
    Maori 59,501
    Non Maori 37,192
    
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    September 12, 2024 2:01pm
I remember when

User pays:
Napier to Palmerston North 182.6 kms.
Manawatu Gorge Highway 11.5 kms.
Why a Road User charge makes much more sense.
3 9
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September 12, 2024 8:21am
- Benedict Yu
  
  You lost me. 😅
  
  13 0
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  September 12, 2024 9:36am
- pdm
  
  Two alternative routes to the new gorge road so tolling makes sense.
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:45am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  You save as much as the tolls from fuel on the hood road, the north road out of Auckland was $2.40 each way when we went on that road 10 years ago. It’s 20 minutes shorter distance each way, a considerable saving
  
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  September 12, 2024 12:28pm
Swifty

What a wonderful experience for these young New Zealand women – I hope they have a great and successful trip away:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby/black-ferns/black-ferns-have-group-hug-with-king-charles-during-buckingham-palace/CAUUMWTADVAJ3KUTPD76L5BO4U/
6 1
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September 12, 2024 8:21am
- pdm
  
  swifty
  
  Obviously all quite happy to recognise King Charles as Sovereign of our country – New Zealand.
  
  20 1
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  September 12, 2024 8:57am
  - imalwaysright
    
    I think Charles would be happy enough to call it aotearoa, he’s a wokeist
    His mum wouldnt have allowed that behaviour, and she also wouldn’t have met with the “princess” who is now the ” kweenie”
    
    5 2
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    September 12, 2024 11:42am
Paulus

Are we supposed to believe that most of the other Government Departments will continue to provide correct information.
This to suit the fact that the Ardern Governmeent gave everything they wanted, and more, and they are not going to relinquish any of it, from the tops of the Departments to those who would not say otherwise for fear of losing their jobs.
We are seeing a form of Anarchy continuing – if you listen to little Chippy he support this.
New Zealand has changed not for the better, sadly.
12 3
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September 12, 2024 8:31am
- Benedict Yu
  
  What is your comment addressing?
  
  7 0
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  September 12, 2024 9:38am
  - Paulus
    
    Benedict Yu
    Artemesia 8.15am today re Health Department and Reti.
    All my comments here, for many years, are subject to automatic review before publishing here, so may take some time to connect to reply.
    
    8 2
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    September 12, 2024 11:04am
Nigel Kearney

A headline that should not exist:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/527716/parliament-votes-to-extend-gift-card-expiry-dates

You know you have a left wing government when they think it is their business to micro-manage things like this.
23 3
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September 12, 2024 8:37am
- Cassandra
  
  I see Jerry Mataparae is to help Bougainville become an independent country. It has a population of 300,000 at most. Apart from being a dopey idea (imagine the plunder as the would -be politicians get started – Ministers for Everything off to the UN, koha flowing) it shows that you can delegate. Our Councils should be running everything locally, not Wellington. We might thereby get decent council members!
  
  6 4
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  September 12, 2024 8:48am
  - cmm
    
    I assume that independence will come with a bunch of smallprint.
    Likely they won’t be independent of the NZ and Australian taxpayers.
    
    8 1
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    September 12, 2024 9:53am
    - kevn
      
      cmm… I expect another Chinese naval base in the offing. Money will change hands of course for the privilege.
      
      9 1
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      September 12, 2024 10:01am
      - Matt Long
        
        Bougainville has amongst the largest copper reserves in the world, a strategic asset for China.
        
        14 1
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        September 12, 2024 10:30am
- MCōs
  
  As the Green Party MP Lawrence Xu-Nan insinuated gift cards are an oddity. Why not give money? The recipient may not want to buy something at Briscoes.
  
  9 4
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  September 12, 2024 8:58am
  - rouppe
    
    Yes, Lawrence is much more likely to want to buy something from the local tinny house
    
    11 4
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    September 12, 2024 9:12am
  - graham
    
    Which is why we have Prezzy Cards which can be used anywhere.
    
    5 0
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    September 12, 2024 9:14am
    - cas
      
      Except there is a $5 fee for each Prezzy card which I found out after I had bought quite a few for relatives for Christmas. So its back to Briscoes or Bunnings vouchers.
      
      2 0
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      September 12, 2024 1:48pm
  - pdm
    
    Aaahh a Green saying use money.
    
    Of course he means other peoples money – doesn’t he.
    
    10 0
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    September 12, 2024 9:47am
  - NoFax
    
    I didn’t realise the gift cards were compulsory. If a person doesn’t think a gift card is a good idea, then don’t buy one. Is it really this complicated? And as it is a gift, then it is just that, a gift – the recipient is not entitled to it.
    Further, let’s apply the same logic as other things. I would prefer the government give me cash then spend on some woke nonsense. On second thoughts, maybe this Lawrence Xu-Nan is a genius!
    
    1 0
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    September 12, 2024 2:31pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Short dated gift cards are just a con. The retailer knows that all will not be used.
  Give cash. Hopefully it will not expire.
  
  13 5
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  September 12, 2024 9:37am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Is this government working through the country’s problems at random?
    There must me more important issues that need fixing.
    Suggest they outlaw iwi extorting money from individuals and businesses in the guise of “consultation” .
    
    8 2
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    September 12, 2024 10:04am
    - Ghost
      
      It is a members bill, not a government bill.
      
      6 2
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      September 12, 2024 10:14am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Nice anorak.
        
        1 3
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        September 12, 2024 12:01pm
      - Ghost
        
        So do you not understand that members bills are drawn in a ballot and governments dont control that. Melissa’s bill was drawn in November 2022, its taken just under 2 years, 2 governments to go through its stages and pass.
        
        5 2
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        September 12, 2024 12:24pm
  - sirknz
    
    Wait for the Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) to get pushed on to us, then the money will expire, and they will be able to restrict what you can and can’t buy.
    
    2 1
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    September 12, 2024 4:06pm
goNZ1

the Great Replacement in NZ continues!
from Stats NZ/ASB bank –

” NZ saw a net permanent and long-term migration inflow of 3,030 persons in July, with annual net inflows slowing to 67,199 persons, an early 2023 low. Net PLT departures of NZ citizens hit a record high 55,764 persons, with the number of non-NZ net inflows easing to 122,966 persons. Inbound tourism numbers have plateaued at around 3.2 million persons per annum. We expect annual net PLT inflows to slow to about 30,000 persons by year end. There is the risk that net inflows fall faster than this, with the likelihood that net PLT outflows become more of the norm for 2025…. ”
10 1
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September 12, 2024 8:57am
- cmm
  
  Replacing quality with quantity.
  What can possibly go wrong?
  
  24 1
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  September 12, 2024 9:12am
  - Yabster
    
    yep- no wonder infrastructure, housing, schools, health are stretched- Germany has finally woken up- (of course thats far right thinking to actually monitor/restrict immigration)- both Labour and National are as bad when it comes immigration policy.
    
    15 0
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    September 12, 2024 9:46am
    - NothingLeft
      
      far ~~right~~ center.
      
      7 1
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      September 12, 2024 10:31am
    - Don Beckett
      
      I now have three of my grand-daughters living in Oz – 1 in Melbourne who moved there last month permanently, and 2 in Queensland 1 permanently 18 month ago, and another 3 months ago & considering permanent stay.
      My 2nd. son, a highly qualified & sought after builder, is going on holiday this Christmas to Noosa heads, and intends buying land somewhere in the region, and planning a permanent shift in the next 2 years. If spouse & I are fit enough, we may well join him.
      At the moment, all I can see is the country devolving into a latter day Zimbabwe – with our elites in the government, academia, the legal profession & unions all too afraid of radical Maori to stop the Waitangi gravy train, and an increase in aggressive actions by Maori activists which could lead urban warfare – its almost happening now, with the police still not hardened up enough.
      Very sad to see my beloved country, the land of my birth, becoming a two tier race based society.
      
      29 6
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      September 12, 2024 10:45am
      - Ian Boag
        
        Bearing in mind that your pension is being funded by the generation who have not left …. it would seem a bit odd that you could live in Oz getting an NZ pension being funded by other people’s kids …
        
        2 3
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        September 12, 2024 8:29pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Wrong Boag.
        I spent a number of years working in Australia, and The Australian govt provide a fair percentage of my pension. NZ & Oz have a pension sharing scheme , and my kids pay enough in tax to cover my pension a 100 times over.
        So don’t guilt trip me with your sob story crap.
        
        3 2
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        September 12, 2024 9:48pm
- greybeard
  
  These numbers are fairly meaningless unless there is some analysis by age: infants, primary kids, secondary kids, working-age adults, retiring-age adults etc. Give us some idea of the contribution to society expected when they arrive here.
  
  6 0
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  September 12, 2024 10:29am
  - MCōs
    
    My wife’s neice & husband who are Thai nationality and NZ citizens moved to Melbourne earlier this year because pay for chefs is way better than here, for then
    Economically their leaving makes no difference to either country except they free up work for someone else, I suppose
    Apparently there are a lot of Thais over there with NZ passports who have done the same.
    When one hears about the ‘best & brightest’ leaving the country, everyone ain’t that bright.
    
    1 1
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    September 12, 2024 6:02pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Which is exactly why we can expect Australia to restrict our current easy access there. Australia does not want to outsource its immigration policy to NZ.
      
      4 0
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      September 12, 2024 7:19pm
kowtow

Front page yesterday’s Herald about the ‘racist polls’ on the Maori wards .

LGNZ spokesit ;

“Polls are a poor substitute for holistic decision making”.

LGNZ does not believe in democracy .
33 1
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September 12, 2024 9:13am
- Eastlander
  
  The territorial authorities gathered under LGNZ are rebels, plain and simple. They’re openly contesting the authority of the central government at this point.
  
  Their idea of democracy can fairly be summed up as job security and unlimited power for government staff like themselves. In their recent call to devolve more power to themselves they touted their ability to make better decisions FOR their communities. Happily they’re too dumb and charmless to have a support base beyond their own employees, Maori organisations and the mongrel mob.
  
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  September 12, 2024 9:47am
- Yabster
  
  LGNZ, Sam Broughton and all those councils who are a member of it are a disgrace- glad Chch has given them the finger.
  
  24 0
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  September 12, 2024 9:49am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  LGNZ took the government’s money to subvert their members interests over 3 waters.
  
  They have yet to demonstrate that they represent the interests of anyone except themselves.
  
  Who is surprised that they think democracy is a waste of time?
  
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  September 12, 2024 10:55am
- AitchW
  
  Kowtow “polls are a poor substitute for holistic decision making” sounds incredibly Orwellian! A sound bite worthy of the odious Ardern.
  
  7 0
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  September 12, 2024 11:26am
MCōs

Our glorious Head of State gets a protocol shattering hug from the Black Ferns & didn’t seem to mind
They would have been deported if they’d mobbed QEII thus
https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/ce3196w653zo
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September 12, 2024 9:40am
- Ghost
  
  He doesn’t look very good. I wonder how his treatment is going
  
  4 3
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  September 12, 2024 9:50am
  - MCōs
    
    We don’t even know which type of cancer he has and what his prognosis is. If he’s heading off to Oz shortly he must be in pretty good shape, but that can be deceptive.
    
    5 3
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    September 12, 2024 10:09am
    - Paulus
      
      Though is was Man’s main one, Prostate Cancer – not a good one to have.
      
      2 1
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      September 12, 2024 11:09am
      - Ghost
        
        All they would release was it wasn’t prostate, but it was discovered when treating him for enlarged prostate
        
        7 0
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        September 12, 2024 11:16am
      - Flossie
        
        About the only definite comment made re his cancer – “Not prostate”. Not saying what it IS though.
        
        5 0
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        September 12, 2024 11:26am
- Paulus
  
  Imagine if they tried to hug Queen Victoria, after her agreeing to the Treaty of Waitangi, at their request.
  Off with their heads !
  
  6 2
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  September 12, 2024 11:08am
Bobba Fret

Darleen Tana back in court today I believe.
12 0
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September 12, 2024 10:02am
- John Loveridge
  
  It’d make a great episode of Judge Judy.
  
  7 0
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  September 12, 2024 10:55am
- AitchW
  
  Dear old Darleen. Yet another window into the Green party dysfunction, hypocrisy, and incompetence.
  
  11 0
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  September 12, 2024 11:38am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Heard on the radio that she demanded a Karakia before the start of proceedings. Apparantly the judge agreed to it. 😳
  
  12 0
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  September 12, 2024 12:50pm
- Bobba Fret
  
  Not much of an update from Stuff on Darleen
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350412873/gutted-and-betrayed-tana-fights-green-party-over-planned-expulsion-parliament
  
  1 1
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  September 12, 2024 1:50pm
- SimonRAnderson
  
  Yes. That SimonTV dumbarse was there to cover it.
  
  2 2
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  September 12, 2024 7:14pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Elon Musk knows efficiency. He also understands money. Look out Democrats, Musk is coming for your binky.
This is going to be fun. Drain that swamp.

https://patriotpowerednetwork.com/trump-taps-elon-musk-to-overhaul-and-audit-federal-government/?
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September 12, 2024 10:08am
- MCōs
  
  He might understand money, but money can’t buy him class
  https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1833728804579111268?s=61&t=yFkzCNMWRCaVt1p5eRxUog
  
  4 5
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  September 12, 2024 2:51pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Hunter Biden.
Joe has said he will not pardon Hunter. A family like the Bidens stay together in scandals, so they stay out of jail.
I say Joe is waiting for Kamala to win. If not he will pardon his son, or do some conniving to keep Hunter out of jail.

https://patriotpowerednetwork.com/hunter-biden-pleads-guilty-mid-trial-setup-sparking-speculation-of-presidential-pardon/?
14 6
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September 12, 2024 10:14am
- imalwaysright
  
  We may see Kamala run for election while being the first woman president.
  Joe’s days are numbered and the ratings bump for kamala will be too good to resist.
  
  6 5
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  September 12, 2024 10:28am
  - Phronesis
    
    Not sure it will happen before the election. If Kamala wins then they will keep Joe around until the inauguration. If Kamala loses then I think we will see Joe pushed out, Kamala will be the first female president, she will then pardon Hunter. Kamala is young enough that she will be wanting to maximise her future power and earnings. VP is nothing next to having been president.
    
    6 5
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    September 12, 2024 11:01am
    - Paulus
      
      But as Women she is Indian Jamaican, and not considered a Black American, by many of that ilk, women.
      
      3 3
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      September 12, 2024 11:11am
    - MCōs
      
      That’s pretty wild speculation
      That she’ll lose, I mean!
      
      4 10
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      September 12, 2024 11:42am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Equally possible scenario Phronesis. My theory is based on the confluence of opportunity. The Dems clearly have no respect for the presidency, or the president, apart from it being a box to tick.
      Joe is as disposable as Kamala will soon be, so why not dispose of him now if it helps tick the president kamala box?
      Killing Trump is the other option.
      
      4 5
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      September 12, 2024 11:57am
      - cmm
        
        I don’t know how US voting works, but wouldn’t Trump’s VP just stand in his place?
        
        Joe is immensely disposable. He’s a “lame duck” as he is not standing for reelection. “The people in charge” have no further use for him.
        
        4 3
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        September 12, 2024 3:22pm
    - cmm
      
      I think we’re going to see an October surprise.
      
      Joe will die peacefully in his sleep (with or without assistance) around mid October.
      Kamala will step into those Presidential shoes just before the election – hoping for a boost.
      
      7 5
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      September 12, 2024 12:49pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Well spotted
        
        2 2
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        September 12, 2024 4:10pm
  - Notsofast
    
    Would this mean she couldn’t run in 2028?
    
    1 2
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    September 12, 2024 11:21am
    - NothingLeft
      
      No
      
      “No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.”
      
      3 0
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      September 12, 2024 3:42pm
    - Jethrod
      
      No, LBJ took over from JFK, then won 1 election, but withdrew before the next election, citing ill-health. Was dead if I recall within a year or two.
      
      2 0
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      September 12, 2024 5:04pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Pictures coming out today of Biden wearing a Trump hat in Pennsylvania, and another of him surrounded by kids wearing Trump gear.
    
    Bet Kamala’s not best pleased
    https://x.com/i/status/1833979628245189021
    
    https://static.toiimg.com/thumb/msid-113270412,imgsize-914566,width-400,resizemode-4/113270412.jpg
    
    https://media.patriots.win/post/ESNz55YB0udg.jpeg
    
    3 2
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    September 12, 2024 3:27pm
- cmm
  
  “Joe has said he will not pardon Hunter.”
  
  Joe has said many things. Why believe him this time?
  
  Of course he will pardon Hunter. Why would he not?
  
  Consider:
  * He’s not running for office, so he doesn’t care who he pisses off.
  * The Democrats shanked him so he probably doesn’t care much about any damage he does to the Democrat brand.
  
  The only question is whether he keels over before Hunter gets sentenced.
  
  11 5
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  September 12, 2024 12:47pm
  - septic skeptic
    
    He will probably get confused and pardon Trump or Putin by mistake.
    
    0 0
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    September 12, 2024 8:50pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Ohio cats take to the streets to protest immigration.
Something must change. MAGA!

https://babylonbee.com/news/ohio-cats-take-to-the-streets-to-protest-haitian-immigration?
11 8
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September 12, 2024 10:19am
- Vinicius
  
  Did any cats owned by those dreaded “Cat Ladies” show up?
  
  6 1
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  September 12, 2024 11:37am
- NothingLeft
  
  It’s a great story isn’t it. Comedy/Meme gold and strikes at the heart of the breakdown of societal norms, trust and law and order created by vast scale 3rd world immigration policies of border Tsar Harris.
  https://x.com/i/status/1833989625313914967
  
  3 2
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  September 12, 2024 3:32pm
Jack5

China is targeting dairy imports from the European Union, the country’s biggest foreign dairy supplier after New Zealand, as China’s own dairy industry copes with a glut in production.

Bloomberg reports China’s own dairy-farming sector is facing its most severe challenge since 2008. It attributes this assessment to Gao Fei, chief executive officer of China Mengniu Dairy Co., in July. That was the year milk contaminated with melamine led to the deaths of several babies, sickened hundreds of thousands.

Chinese milk prices have been falling for more than two years, and one estimate is that 80 per cent of Chinese dairy farmers are making losses, Bloomberg says.

China’s dairy imports fell 14 per cent in the first seven months of 2024, while China dairy exports rose 27 per cent in that period. Bloomberg says this is according to Government data.

The news agency says companies set up to sell European Union dairy products in China are”turning to hawking Chinese produce to countries such as Pakistan and Nigeria.”

China’s milk production has risen 40 per cent in the last decade.
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September 12, 2024 11:36am
AitchW

Media reporting breathlessly today that medical students have been acting inappropriately with corpses and human remains. Big fat hairy deal, anyone who has ever known a doctor or med student socially will tell you that it’s been happening forever.
Click bait madness.
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September 12, 2024 12:29pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Really?
  
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  September 12, 2024 12:46pm
  - cmm
    
    Did you know any medical students at university?
    
    Don’t put them on a pedestal because of their high status in society.
    
    In my experience hanging out with medics at university (Cape Town – early 1980s – my then girlfriend was a medical student) they are the biggest drug abusers of any student demographic and some of their behaviour is atrocious. Sure, there’s a lot of stress etc, which explains some of it (if not excusing it).
    
    NZ medical students I have spoken to say that changing Cape Town to Otago and 1980 to 2020 doesn’t change much.
    
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    September 12, 2024 12:55pm
    - David Garrett
      
      cmm: I knew a y0ung doctor well, back in the late 70’s- 80’s. I recall he had a large box of purloined syringes, sterile saline bottles etc. etc. so as to more easily and safely inject what I assume was heroin – heroin was big back then.
      
      7 3
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      September 12, 2024 1:04pm
      - cmm
        
        I don’t think my friends hit heroin but they might have.
        
        One one occasion one of the students had the job of sewing up ladies’ after doing episiotomies (where they cut the vagina so the mother does not tear during birth, then stitch it up again). The mothers were provided with happy gas for pain relief.
        
        The student put the happy gas mask on himself instead of the mother and was sewing the mums up while hitting the gas.
        
        Ironically, the last I heard of this guy he was one of the members of medical practitioners’ disciplinary committee in an island not too far away.
        
        Another drove her car off the end of the wharf into Cape Town harbour while out buying drugs. Nearly drowned her stupid self.
        
        None of this interfered with their graduation or future careers.
        
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        September 12, 2024 3:17pm
- Inandout
  
  AW. I can also add funeral directors/staff who have been most inappropriate when dealing with corpses. I think a little imagination will suffice.
  
  3 1
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  September 12, 2024 1:25pm
- MCōs
  
  Dr Philip Polkinghorne had/has a meth habit plus a issue with prostitutes
  One wonders just how widespread this is among those thought of as respectable society
  
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  September 12, 2024 4:53pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350412435/man-seriously-hurt-after-car-rolls-foxton-beach
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.
This did not happen at the 30kph speed limit.
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September 12, 2024 1:22pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Commodores used to be the number one car owned by bogan tools. Hotted up VW Golfs seem to be their modern replacement.
  
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  September 12, 2024 7:12pm
Chuck Bird

I have had a look at a couple of betting sites and they have not moved since the debate. They very slightly favour trump.
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September 12, 2024 1:46pm
All_on_Red

‘A CNN poll taken immediately after the debate between former President Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris found that the percentage of voters who trust Trump more than Harris on the economy jumped from +16 percent to +20 percent.’
https://conservativebrief.com/cnn-poll-after-85643/
The Economy is the top issue

Results on who ‘won’ are all over the place
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2024/09/11/voter-reactions-to-the-abc-news-debate-were-not-goodfor-kamala-n2644595

Reuter’s live Focus Group
‘Reuters interviewed 10 people who were still unsure how they were going to vote in the Nov. 5 election before they watched the debate. Six said afterward they would now either vote for Trump or were leaning toward backing him. Three said they would now back Harris and one was still unsure how he would vote.
Harris and Trump are in a tight race and the election will likely be decided by just tens of thousands of votes in a handful of battleground states, many of whom are swing voters like the undecided voters who spoke to Reuters.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/some-undecided-voters-not-convinced-by-harris-after-debate-with-trump-2024-09-11/

Early days though. Lets see how the Polls react but the trend does seem to be with Trump.
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September 12, 2024 2:07pm
- Biscuit
  
  They interviewed TEN people?
  
  Wow, Reuter’s really loosened their purse strings with THAT poll!
  
  I’m no pollist but the margin of error on such a small sampling there must be massive.
  
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  September 12, 2024 2:37pm
  - All_on_Red
    
    Most focus groups are around 10 people.
    The key part is they were all undecided Voters.
    Clearly only a moron would take it too literally but like Polls its an indicator.
    
    4 5
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    September 12, 2024 3:04pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      TV ‘focus groups’ like these (and many commercial ones as well) are junk, gamed by people or even organisers with an agenda who say they are undecided, but who are really just hiding their allegiances for the pay-check or for 5 minutes of fame. Some people use focus group participation as significant source of supplementary income.
      
      The numbers are so small that statistically it is at best anecdote
      
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      September 12, 2024 3:38pm
      - Biscuit
        
        My thinking, too, NothingLeft.
        
        I did a survey here just before – even more nonsensical in that there were only three participants.
        
        This came out as 1-1 tie between Trump and Harris with one fencesitter (and I’m tipping it was the (uneaten and still alive) cat)…
        
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        September 12, 2024 5:10pm
cmm

In Ireland a Euro350k bike rack is threatening to bring down the government.

In Aotearoa it wouldn’t even make the news.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0MvDu-Ers9g
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September 12, 2024 2:28pm
Fisiani2

The US election is close and will be won by someone who gets at least 270 electoral college votes. Two days ago Trump was the favourite with the bookmakers but after the debate the smart money has made Harris the favourite. If she remains there her chances of winning are above average. Words here are cheap but if you are sure that Trump will win then you can double your wager
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September 12, 2024 3:04pm
Its only I

I guess Trump using Laura Loomer as his debate prep person didn’t go so well.

Watching the triggered MAGA cultists go off on trying to blame the moderators is f”ing gold.
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September 12, 2024 3:25pm
- MCōs
  
  Another coach was multi purpose Tulsi Gabbard
  https://x.com/nameshiv/status/1833700814189191200?s=61&t=yFkzCNMWRCaVt1p5eRxUog
  
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  September 12, 2024 4:33pm
- Conservatarian
  
  One of the best things about the debate was that climate change got a half hearted 1 minute at the end.
  
  It’s apparently an existential problem, unless the economy is in tatters, illegal immigrants are flooding Anytown, USA, and the Democrats are in a close election.
  
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  September 12, 2024 4:37pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    If the dems somehow get back in, watch. Kamala’s clearly dodgy fracking promise will be gone by lunchtime.
    
    2 2
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    September 12, 2024 7:27pm
- Conservatarian
  
  My friend lives in the downtown part of Boston, a wildly blue coastal city. She is highly educated, financially secure, 42, single, a childless cat lady i.e. a wildly blue demographic. Her must-haves for voting for president are security over freedom, post-birth abortion, and being financially supported by the government i.e. wildly blue.
  
  However, she told me she can no longer vote for Harris, because she now understands that illegal Haitians are a threat to her cat and particularly any kittens her cat may bear in the future.
  
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  September 12, 2024 4:50pm
  - kevn
    
    Conserv… Inconveniently, other nefarious uses.
    Who wooda thort.
    From an insider.
    https://x.com/WallStreetApes/status/1833981036289753558
    
    3 3
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    September 12, 2024 5:18pm
    - Conservatarian
      
      Superb. Isn’t diversity enriching?
      
      2 3
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      September 12, 2024 5:31pm
      - kowtow
        
        ‘Animal sacrifices are surging in Queens, with chickens, pigs and rats being tortured, mutilated or killed in “twisted” religious rituals in parkland surrounding Jamaica Bay, The Post has learned’
        
        https://nypost.com/2024/09/07/us-news/animal-sacrifices-on-the-rise-in-queens-its-open-season/
        
        And at the minute the msm are falling over themselves larfing at the Don , but there are genuine , huge issues with the Haitians in Springfield Ohio , including claims of animals being stolen.
        
        In a sense Springfield is a reflection of the failed Democrat immigration policy and Republican voters do know it.
        
        6 2
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        September 12, 2024 6:00pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Oh dear. It just gets better. Once again the lying idiot loony left media are going to have egg on their faces.
      
      4 2
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      September 12, 2024 7:31pm
  - Mike
    
    Well, that’s one loonie’s vote. And Trump has already locked in voters who believe in windmill cancer, clean coal, Mexico will pay for a wall, tariffs fund childcare, he’s not a sex pest, etc, etc.
    
    2 8
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    September 12, 2024 5:59pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Windmills for powering modern civilisation is a hiding to nowhere (as Germany is now demonstrating), for many many rock solid scientific reasons.
      
      Clean Coal refers to super critical coal fired power stations. They are nearly as clean as burning natural gas.
      
      Mexico paying for the wall was a dud. You got one right.
      
      Tariffs against a behemoth that wants to destroy your nation so it can expand it’s totalitarian power globally will be part of a package to boost the fortunes of the USA. So yes the downstream effects are more money for nice social programmes that lefties expect.
      
      The dems and other assorted far left idiots have thrown so much skulduggery at Trump that false sexual misconduct accusations are very likely part of that mix. Are you aware of any hard evidence supporting your claims on this? Or just people coming out of the woodwork at convenient times with stories that make no sense?
      
      2 2
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      September 12, 2024 7:42pm
MCōs

The Blackcaps test against Afghanistan is #2549 in the history of the game and likely to be only the sixth called off without a ball bowled.
NZ has been involved in three of them thus far, two at Dunedin.
The first abandoned game was in an Ashes series at Melbourne in 1970 and was replaced by what turned out to be ODI #1
The most recent was at Dunedin in 1998 against India
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September 12, 2024 4:12pm
- kowtow
  
  Good. There’s no way any decent NZer should have sporting contacts with that country .
  
  Why aren’t the usual suspects marching !
  
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  September 12, 2024 6:02pm
- greybeard
  
  World cricket assigned two of the worst teams a crap slot in a crap country at a crap time of the year.
  
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  September 12, 2024 6:57pm
  - Mike
    
    Out of 12 test-playing countries, NZ is ranked 5th. Afghanistan is 12th, but 9th of 20 in ODIs.
    
    2 2
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    September 12, 2024 7:07pm
Ghost

Shawn Ryan interviews JD Vance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrgmwtpAsWc
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September 12, 2024 8:35pm

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