Bomber on the Electoral Finance Bill

September 19th, 2007 at 8:07 am by David Farrar

Not often I find myself quoting Bomber Bradbury, but he has taken a respite from his 2,457th Bush is Evil post :-) to comment on the Electoral Finance Bill:

Now I’m all in favour of curbing the excesses of money influence in democracy, a plutocracy is a real fear and is a direct outcome from unrestricted electoral financing rules, however Labour seem to have lost the plot on this. In the real areas they should work on, like anonymous donations, Labour have folded and seem hell bent on putting together a bunch of election rules that will give such a biased and vested advantage to the incumbent that anyone concerned with basic standards of democracy should be deeply worried about.

If National was trying to pull this crap people would be rioting in the streets, Labour have to be told they can’t run with this type of legislation especially if the rumours that they will force it through urgency are true.

As Bomber says, there would be riots from the left if National introduced such a bill.  What will be amusing is if Labour passes the EFB, but still loses the 2008 election.  I suspect they’ll be the first ones up asking for it to be repealed once they are not the Government.

I mean just imagine – National could introduce bulk funding in 2011, and the PPTA couldn’t spend more than $60,000 fighting against it.  Even better also get rid of zoning the same year, and the PPTA having already spent $60,000 fighting bulk funding, will then not be able to spend even a single cent fighting zoning abolishment.

I have absolutely no desire to work in a future Government (I enjoy self employment far too much), but you know if the Electoral Finance Bill is passed, and National does gain office in 2008, I might seek a position just for 2011 as being in charge of introducing laws which will piss off Labour, yet leave them and their allies unable to campaign against them.  Think of the fun one could have in such a role.  One could do laws to:

  • Rename Labour Day, National Day
  • Privatise the entire prison service
  • Bulk fund all schools
  • Buy an aircraft carrier
  • Remove union monopoly on collective contracts
  • Make donations to the Business Round Table tax deductible

And Labour and its allies will be banned from effectively being able to campaign against any of them!!

And for the record I am only serious about three of the six above.  And no I won’t say which thre!

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111 Responses to “Bomber on the Electoral Finance Bill”

  1. Peter (1,712 comments) says:

    Only one aircraft carrier? We should paint it in red, too.

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  2. vto (1,131 comments) says:

    bwilliant. play the system back against itself. always exposes the ridiculosity of the idiots in wellington.

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  3. frederico (72 comments) says:

    Eliminate funding for the arts

    Repeal the RMA

    Privatise ACC

    Restore the ECA………………and not a peep from the unions

    And of course we would need an extensive government program to EXPLAIN these changes.

    I’m starting to like this

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  4. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    david, my guess:-
    – Privatise the entire prison service
    – Bulk fund all schools
    – Remove union monopoly on collective contracts

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  5. Tane (1,096 comments) says:

    * Rename Labour Day, National Day
    * Privatise the entire prison service
    * Bulk fund all schools
    * Buy an aircraft carrier
    * Remove union monopoly on collective contracts
    * Make donations to the Business Round Table tax deductible

    Except for the aircraft carrier and the BRT deductions, I thought those were all National Party policy anyway? And you fullas are more likely to try to abolish Labour Day like you did last time, rather than just renaming it.

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  6. Monty (978 comments) says:

    David – suddenly I am a massive supporter of this disgraceful legislation. I think we can continue to be confident that National will win the election, and then “all the failed policies” of the Labour Government can be turned around and the gagging could work so well. On top of that the National Government will have unlimited funding to promote such wonderful policies.

    Is the the unintended consequences of desperate legislation?

    What still amazes me is the number of people who still know very little about this vile legislation. I was at a function last night where John Key was the speaker and he was very impressive with a good grasp of a wide range of subjects and vision for the future.

    He also (thankfully) spoke about this Bill in response to a question and hopefully enlightened the audience of 200 people about the evils of this socialist government.

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  7. frederico (72 comments) says:

    But its all OK guys, because the EB won’t be able to distribute a few pamphlets in Auckland!!!

    Phew

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  8. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Good grief!,

    AT last the penny has dropped!

    Seems like you have all come over to the ‘dark side’!

    VOTE EFB VOTE EFB!!

    SINGLE PARTY STATE NOW

    TOTALITARIANISM IS THE NEW BLACK!!

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  9. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    I apologise for the cut and paste from another thread, but this is buggin me
    Re John Key – Great, he got to 200 people last night in answer to a question – you mean he didn’t bring it up himself?!

    National have done a PATHETIC job of doing so, so far. John Key’s approach has played into Clark’s hands and ensured that it remain what she said it was – ‘A beltway issue’. I would further say that Clark’s taunts that Key is a ‘lightweight’ are proving true.

    She is running rings around him on this issue.

    It’s all very well to come on kiwiblog and let off steam, seriously I ask people out there:

    What have you personally done?
    Do you have any suggestions about what should or could be done?
    Is there a pdf of a stock letter that we could address to our MPs for example?
    Can we make our feelings known to the other Parties and their voters?
    Are we really going to sit on our asses and watch this Bill pass without public input?

    If we do, then we are all guilty should it pass.

    Helen Clark has put a unlimited amount of tax-money on this gamble. Her rationale?

    “The people will not get excited about this, and I can sneak it through the back door while the electorate is asleep. All I have to do, is accuse National of rorting the voters. The Exclusive Brethren won the last election for me and if I play it right, they will win the next one, as well.”

    Surely it is the oppositions job to organise an – well – ‘opposition’?

    John Key –
    Get some f**kin billboards out there and take out a tv ad! Before it is too late.

    John Key – Get your MPs to write to their constituents and explain this BIll before it is too late.

    What is it to be JOHN-KEY or DON-KEY the choice is yours. If you want a f**kin donation, to pay for this – I’ll put in $20.00 right now!

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  10. Sofia (857 comments) says:

    This item highlights the ONLY redeeming aspect of Labour’s Electoral Finance Bill – that when they loose the 2008 Election, they will by passing this bill have made it very much more difficult for themselves to regain power.

    What does the RSA think of this bill, considering the freedoms their members thought they were fighting for?

    And what of Winston’s voter base – after having their vote betrayed by his supporting this Government, their police force IQ lowered to met his demands for recruitment, a SuperGold card that is useless, and now his probable support of this fascist legislation?

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  11. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Great points Sofia, but it appears the National policy is to allow people to ‘gradually realise’ all of the above.

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  12. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Rename Labour Day, National Day
    Privatise the entire prison service
    Bulk fund all schools
    Buy an aircraft carrier
    Remove union monopoly on collective contracts
    Make donations to the Business Round Table tax deductible

    “And for the record I am only serious about three of the six above. And no I won’t say which three”

    I see the Nats are still carrying on with their “keep our real policies secret plan”

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  13. GerryandthePM (328 comments) says:

    Spoilsport. Labour using their own money to bleat has got to be worth seeing.

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  14. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    I see the Labour Party are still carrying on with their “keep our real policies secret plan”

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  15. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    I’d assume that Mr Farrar is serious about

    Privatise the entire prison service (I wonder who made that donation?)

    Remove union monopoly on collective contracts (EMA)

    Bulk fund all schools

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  16. Billy (121 comments) says:

    Sonic, are we adding Bomber Bradbury to the long list of people who are being unnecessarily hysterical about the EFA?

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  17. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    I’m all for the Aircraft carrier!
    Instead of private jets for Chardonnay Socialists we can have a bloody great phallic symbol. Cool
    Tow the line Fiji or we’ll stomp you! We have big boys toys now and the NZ males have rediscovered we have balls, despite H1’s best efforts to cut them off.

    Hey…………. we will need airplanes for this too. Less arty farty stuff and more F18’s.
    We could invade Australia.. wait… we already have.

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  18. David Farrar (1,895 comments) says:

    Sonic – we would know if Helen had kept her word.

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  19. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    shhh sonic!

    If you leak National policy, Helen will steal it and claim it as her own!

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  20. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Come on David, why so shy. If you believe in privatising prisons why not just come out and say so?

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  21. frederico (72 comments) says:

    Im just waiting for one of the minor parties to crack here. My money is on Dunne.

    As the widespread disgust for this bill permeates up Onslow Rd, how tempting will it be for the walking Quaff, to seize the moment, gain some much needed publicity for his sorry little party, throw around a few “common sense” platitudes and distant himself from this car crash of a government by voting against it.

    Those of us in his electorate should remind him who he represents!!

    pdunne@ministers.govt.nz

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  22. Jim (398 comments) says:

    “But its all OK guys, because the EB won’t be able to distribute a few pamphlets in Auckland!!!”

    Actually, they will.

    Consider, if you will, the effect that Sue Bradford’s bill has on parents who choose to beat their kids to death. That law does not turn babies into super-strength immortals.

    Should the EB decide to distribute pamphlets, or if the unions fall foul of the new rules, the interesting thing will be if the police decide whether prosecution is “in the public interest”…

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  23. Mark (496 comments) says:

    Invade canada.

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  24. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    invade sonic

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  25. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    uh uh, no takers, then?

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  26. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    frederico, that is a great idea: gif we each give a link/address to our local MPs we can contact them and tell them our opinions:
    Lynne Pillay of Waitakere (Labour) And on the Select committee I think?

    waitakere.eo@xtra.co.nz

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  27. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    I want an aircraft carrier too. David, if I vote National this time round and they win the election, will you agitate until the suds are flying in parliament for an aircraft carrier?

    [Countries don't mess with countries with aircraft carriers. And sure we have no planes but we could lease the carrier out to other countries for their planes to use and make money on it]

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  28. Grant McKenna (1,160 comments) says:

    So I guess I’ll have to support the bill then. Roll on 2011…

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  29. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    I’m all for an aircraft carrier. A nuclear one. When we aren’t using it (which will be always) we can connect it up to the national grid to provide power. Should be able to power almost all of NZ.

    In fact, since we don’t have any planes to fly off of it, maybe we should just get the power plant from it, and get the rest of it when we have a use for it. :-)

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  30. frederico (72 comments) says:

    Here is a link to a list with all 121 MPs contact details. Most of them have an email link.

    Find your MP, send your thoughts on the bill.

    Its not much but its easy to do and is something….

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/

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  31. GPT1 (2,122 comments) says:

    Rename Labour Day, National Day – no
    Privatise the entire prison service – yes
    Bulk fund all schools – yes
    Buy an aircraft carrier – cool but no (sigh)
    Remove union monopoly on collective contracts – yes
    Make donations to the Business Round Table tax deductible – heh, but no

    For reasons of ideology the Labour government got rid of private prison providers – you know, the ones with the least escapes, greatest efficiencies and no cost overruns to the taxpayer. Great policy that.

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  32. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    LeeC

    “Surely it is the oppositions job to organise an – well – ‘opposition’?”

    Well, perhaps that is not such a good idea.

    The bill is going to be unpopular and difficult to enforce. It imposes restrictions on free speech and advocacy on New Zealanders who presume they have an inalienable right to speak freely. When this EFA is enforced in 2008 there will be Grey Power grannies, Greenpeace activists, Maori land rights protesters breaking the law, facing prosecution. They will have been criminalised by the Labour Party, Green Party and NZFirst. All National needs to do is avoid association with the Act and they will win popularityfrom the antipathy it generates towards Labour, the Greens and NZFirst.

    And of course as DPF points out it is not as if the Act could not be useful to a National government in 2011…

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  33. milo (525 comments) says:

    Proof that Labour seeks to outlaw disagreement, but allow agreement, comes directly from Hansard (Question Time yesterday). In response to criticism that Caritas could not advertise during election year, and that the Catholic Church was opposed to the bill, the followed was said.

    ” Hon Dr Michael Cullen: Will the Minister ensure that the bill is amended so that the Catholic Church’s campaign can proceed, given the facts that thanks to Working for Families this Government has cut child poverty by two-thirds and the National Party opposed the Working for Families package?

    ” Hon STEVE MAHAREY: I will ensure that that takes place, because of course this is the kind of good news that the National Party does not like but that ought to be told right across New Zealand. ”

    So the Labour party plans to legislate to allow free speech only by it’s friends. It’s enemies (the EB) will be muzzled.

    Can we have another banana republic day sometime soon?

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  34. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    I have a $50 bet on that the EFB will be amended after the SC process on the basis that the SC has concluded wide spread disagreement on the existing provisions.

    The new Bill will have 2 clauses

    1. No donations whatever to political parties.

    2. Political parties election funding to be provided from a Vote Democracy with the allocation of funds determined by the Leader of the Labour Party.

    This was always the end game and we suckers didnt figure the EFB was merely a smoke screen.

    Watch this space

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  35. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Sofia.

    This is a copy of an e-mail I have sent to the president of the NZ RSA.

    Dear Sir.

    I write this letter with no knowledge of your personal political views. But I feel this matter must be brought to your attention.

    As an ex-serviceman, one who still retains familial links with the armed forces in NZ, I write to you in an effort to bring pressure to bear on this government.

    Many of your members fought for freedom of others in conflicts throughout the world. Many of your members, living and passed, have been wounded, and have watched oppo’s and mates die in defence of rights we enjoy, and wished others to have.

    Your country needed you, and you responded. Now your country needs you to speak on behalf of those who made the supreme sacrifice.

    We currently have before parliament a bill to cover Election Finance and conduct by third parties during election campaigns. This has been introduced by the current Government, led by Helen Clark.

    This bill WILL infringe on our rights to free speech. It has been described by the New Zealand Human Rights commission as “Chilling”, and it has stated “It is difficult to conceive of a greater limitation on freedom of speech than this”

    Nicky Hagar has said that this bill is something that the nazi’s might have tried.

    This Government is trying to take away rights that many of your members have fought for, and many of their friends have died for.

    Please take the time to study the ramifications of this bill. I hope that you too find it “Chilling”. I’m sure that you will make the appropriate response in the name of those who fought, bled and died for the rights we hope to continue to enjoy.

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  36. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Superb ‘slightly’ This is the kind of thing that is required, instead of all the pussy-footing around. Expose it for what it is.

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  37. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    DPF:

    Don’t ever have a joke at your own expense – the wingnuts get confused and angry.

    OTOH, it is fun (in a bear-baiting kind of way) watching the usual suspects get into a paranoid lather.

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  38. Reg (539 comments) says:

    Great effort slightlyrighty keep it up, Clark relies on NZer’s characteristic apathy towards politics, to ram through her agenda.
    However I’m beginning to look on the bright side.There is certainly some hilarious things occuring!
    Firstly a leftie wakes up and it dawns on him that a dying socialist government is about to pass a law that could help entrench the next National administration.
    Secondly a Union calls a strike because Its members got a pay rise.
    No wonder they call them the “Loony Left”.

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  39. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    EFB VOTE NOW EFB 4 EVA!

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  40. Whaleoil (767 comments) says:

    I reckon we should ditch the Frigates and buy 6 nuclear subs, when they are tied up alongside they can provide additional power. Perfect kind of thing to pass in the third year of government

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  41. Frank. (607 comments) says:

    Where are the submissions of the Auditor-General and the then Solicitor-General, Terence Arnold with Crown Law to back them both?

    The A-G’s inquiry established “that significant breaches of the appropriations administered by the Service occurred in the period 16 June to 16 September 2005″.

    I don’t see any submissions from John Key or any other MP for that matter? They couldn’t care less any of them. Nothing must disturb their sacrosanct “We are the untouchables’, smug attitude.

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  42. Frank. (607 comments) says:

    slightlyrighty: Well said. Again action to back up your words.

    I have to wonder where Grey Power are in all this lot. In their quarterly mag. they gave Winston the thumbs up, in a full page layout extolling him and his Gold Card. in my view after 1 January if the EF(M)B is passed it would be deemed electioneering. I call it licking the Master’s boots for services rendered.

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  43. Inventory2 (10,342 comments) says:

    Frank said “I don’t see any submissions from John Key or any other MP for that matter? They couldn’t care less any of them. ”

    I think the daily questioning of Mark Burton gives a pretty good idea of where National stands with regard to the EFB. Bill English has run rings around Burton on the detail, to the point where Labour now substitutes Cullen or Maharey to answer the questions. National has to be pragmatic – unless NZFirst or the Greens have a change of heart, Labour has the numbers to get this nasty piece of work passed in to law. Bottom line – in the long-term, National has more to gain by Labour’s bloody-mindedness to shut down the EB’s and ram the EFB through. OTOH, Labour risks complete meltdown next year when the great unwashed find out just how draconian this legislation is.

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  44. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    Wait. Isn’t the flight deck of an aircraft carrier big enough to fit a rugby field on? We might be able to solve the nation’s power problem as Paul said. And we’d have a nice floating stadium to park just outside of the Ports of Auckland for the RWC 2011!

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  45. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    Whaleoil: I reckon we should ditch the Frigates and buy 6 nuclear subs, when they are tied up alongside they can provide additional power. Perfect kind of thing to pass in the third year of government

    And they might be the one thing that helps us win the next America’s cup too.

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  46. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “Privatise the entire prison service”

    hehe -yeah haven’t they done this in the US? Wakenhut and other security companies make donations to the political parties, and then lobby for tougher sentencing laws – luvly jubly.

    “Rename Labour Day, National Day
    Privatise the entire prison service
    Bulk fund all schools
    Buy an aircraft carrier
    Remove union monopoly on collective contracts
    Make donations to the Business Round Table tax deductible ”

    You’re starting to get off message DPF – didn’t Mr McCully tell you? Helun KKKKKKKlarkKKKKKKKK is an evil Stalinist, and John Key is the working man’s multi-millionaire – that’s your mantra – how hard is it to keep on mindlessly repeating it. You can expect a rather strongly worded email from party HQ quite soon David.

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  47. Inventory2 (10,342 comments) says:

    Surprise, surprise! No Mark Burton AGAIN to answer questions on the detail of the EFB. His absences from the House are now far too frequent to be coincidental. Burton’s name must now be pretty close to the top of Helen’s “NOT” list (as opposed to the “HOT” list) for the upcoming cabinet (or should that be deckchair?) reshuffle.

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  48. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    Roger, at what age do lefties get their sense of humour removed?

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  49. Right of way is Way of Right (1,122 comments) says:

    If we do get the Aircraft Carrier, I’ve put a bid in for some second hand Skyhawks you can borrow!

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  50. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    let’s face it lots of lefties come here to fill the humour-void that pervades their left-wing environments. It’s hard to have a laugh when the opening line to any joke has to be something like:

    “Did you hear about the guy who has expressed a viewpoint not necessarilly in keeping with Party policy?”

    I’d like to invent a new kind of joke ‘the Labour-Party Minister’ joke

    First go:

    Question: How does a Labour Minister change a lightbulb?

    Answer: He just holds it up and waits for the whole world to revolve around him…

    Question: How many abour Labour Ministers does it take to fix a plug?

    Answer: Three. One to pour the champagne, one to table a ‘plug-tax draft Bill’ and one to call an electrician.

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  51. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Lee C

    I like this game!

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  52. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    ‘Hello… testing, testing… is this thing switched on…?”

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  53. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    What do you call Labour minister’s car?

    A dope carrier.

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  54. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Mark Burton’s favourite leisure pursuit?

    Hide and seek.

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  55. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Dont give up the day job for a full-time career on the comedy circuit just yet Lee.

    Right-wing comedy, as ever an oxymoron

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  56. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    No, that’s ‘left wing sense of humour ever an oxymoron’ pistachio boy. Interesting you called yourself sonic. Is that because you are surrounded by pricks?

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  57. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    In the weods of LL Cool J :
    ‘You don’t wanna do this, WHy don’t you just forget it?’

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  58. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    I’m starting to think you come her more for the personal abuse than for the political debate, sonic, just nip it in the bud, I say…

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  59. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Keep the laughs coming Lee!

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  60. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    By the way, sonic, I managed to track down a copy of tHelen’s last election poster on Trade me for you (as requested).

    Still can’t work out why you wanted it laminated, though.

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  61. Castafiore (262 comments) says:

    Sonic,

    Don’t give up your Govt job, the parody that gushes from your small left brain is certainly giving the taxpayer good value.

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  62. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    If an infinite number or monkeys and an infinite number of typewriters eventually will produce Shakespear, can we assume that if Lee keeps trying he will eventually make a funny?

    Sadly, no.

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  63. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Brilliant comeback I prostrate myself at the feet of yor comedic genius. Wow, that told me!

    I typed in at 2.58. It must have taken you almost half an hour of composing and proofing to come up with that gem, sonic. Truly, you are one funny guy.

    Consider yursel able to retire with your cohones intact, after that brilliant riposte.

    God I’m nearly crying with laughter! But for all the wrong reasons.

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  64. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Oddly enough lee I did not spend 1/2 an hour thinking of that.

    But thanks for the very kind compliment, I’ll be sure to take it in the spirit that it was offered in.

    x

    S

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  65. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    ps ‘Shakespeare’ has an ‘e’ on the end.

    and it ‘an infinite number ‘of’ monkeys’

    But still,

    priceless.

    That’s going to keep me awake tonight.

    Ahh inadvertent humour, surely the best there is.

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  66. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Were you an awkward child?

    you were, weren’t you?

    Did you want to hang with the guys, but always get marginalised?

    You did didn’t you?

    Did you have ambitions to be an actor once, but politics appealed more?

    I thought so.

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  67. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    ‘Monkey on typewriters’ What a first! Did you go around the office for advice onthis one? If you did they’re taking the piss out of you.

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  68. David Baigent (172 comments) says:

    sonic that’s an own goal for sure……

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  69. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Actually.

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  70. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Shall I release him back into the wild or do you dare me to pull his wings off?

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  71. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Lee points out a spelling mistak, well that proves just what a funny guy he really is

    That little bit of projection then shows what a funny guy he is.

    But not in a ha ha way methinks.

    xxx

    S

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  72. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Shall I release him back into the wild”

    He’d enjoy that, he can talk to the rabbits…

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  73. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Have you noticed the more I abuse him, the more kisses I get sent?

    I think we have uncovered the motivation for his Helen fetish.

    He probably doesn’t realise that that little ‘x’, when used in a voting booth actually constitutes a vote.

    You naughty, naughty boy.

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  74. baxter (893 comments) says:

    If National win the next election they could improve the Electoral Finance Bill by extending the Helengrad Gag from one year to three years.

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  75. vto (1,131 comments) says:

    your perserverance sonic is impressive i’ll give you that

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  76. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “That’s going to keep me awake tonight. Ahh inadvertent humour, surely the best there is.”

    Really? That’s funny – all your dirty talk on those other threads did the same to me :-) (p.s. can we meet again in that public toilet?)

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  77. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Impressive, maybe. Foolhardy, certainly. It’s about 4:10 now. He will have thought of anther comeback in the next ten mins. Hold on to your hats, everyone. It will be a classic.

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  78. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Nome, who gave you permission to remove your butt-plug?

    Remeber the ruls, you only speak when spoken to.

    Now hit the deck and give me 800,000.

    Oh I begin to weary of this sport.

    You guys win. Left wingers truly are the funnier creed.

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  79. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Which monkey on what typewriter came up with the EFB I wonder?

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  80. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    You should be more careful with your words Lee. Sure you’ve got a filthy mouth and I like that, but I think you’re forgeting who’s the top and who’se the bottom where we’re concerned – cheeky little bitch. Don’t think that your not expendable – redbaiter (aka cockbaiter) is always available you know.

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  81. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Phillip John/Roger Nome:

    “You should be more careful with your words Lee”

    And YOU should be more careful with your words. You completely lost the plot yesterday on the electoral finance bill thread – and scurried off with a tail dangling between your legs. Unless you can bring yourself to address the simple questions asked of you on that thread, your D- grade still stands.

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  82. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    POC – to be honest I actually think you a bit of a bore. Sorry if I find hanging out with friends more interesting than playing word games with you over the internet.

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  83. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Phillip John/Roger Nome:

    I really couldn’t give a fig what you think of me. I was actually more interested in having a robust debate about a serious issue – in private electoral financing. But, no, the sum and total of your contribution was personal insults. The very fact you see this as “word games” reflects more on you than me. It’s obvious that you have a very high opinion of yourself. If only you could bring the same high standards to your contributions.

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  84. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    POC your handel says it all. You’re just not worth the time mate – never have been – probably never will be.

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  85. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    “Never have been – probably never will be” – keep up the personal insults. That seems to be your speciality. Leave the rest of us to debate the real issues.

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  86. Frank. (607 comments) says:

    Inventory 2: No Mark Burton in the House again today and I couldn’t see any marked point scoring by National even though the HRC submission was referred to.

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  87. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “Leave the rest of us to debate the real issues.”

    Sure – get on with it then – dabate away …..

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  88. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Oh my gosh, have I just been threatedned with ‘cyber-assassination?’

    “You should be more careful with your words Lee. Sure you’ve got a filthy mouth and I like that, but I think you’re forgeting who’s the top and who’se the bottom where we’re concerned – cheeky little bitch. Don’t think that your not expendable – redbaiter (aka cockbaiter) is always available you know.”

    Thanks for the advice nome. I think the top and bottom thing from your point of view perhaps refers to the political/parliamentary system but I couldn’t be sure. If it does, it is a little sad that you have to hide under Auntie Helen’s skirts whenever you can’t stand on your own two feet.

    For my part, however, the butt-plug reference was designed to infer that you talk out your arse and your comments above merely served to prove it.

    Anyway, have a nice night, I really gotta go.

    “He shoots, He scores, The crowd goes wild!!”

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  89. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Wow – that was a pretty long winded piece of irrelivence Lee – If you’re going to talk crap you could at least make it short enough that we’re not bored off our tits by the end of it.

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  90. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Craig Ranapia
    I am asuming you are Maori.
    If so, you have no problems with National playing the race card?
    For example, the kiwi/ iwi billboard about the beaches, suggesting that Maori were not kiwis.

    By his actions, or lack of them Henare had no
    problem with the suggestion, he did not say a
    word against the billboards in public that I
    read.

    So, where do you stand, you have no problem
    with the race card being used against Maori
    if it gains the Nats a few more votes?

    [DPF: Actually the billboards did not suggest that - you just interpret it that way. Others intrepret it as meaning that Iwi is also part of Kiwi]

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  91. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    [DPF: Actually the billboards did not suggest that - you just interpret it that way. Others intrepret it as meaning that Iwi is also part of Kiwi]

    Other Maori interpret it as meaning iwi is also
    part of kiwi.
    That is a rather strong long bow you are trying
    to pull, David.What other Maori?
    The nats were not playing the race card, what
    was the point of the billboards then?

    [DPF: That the Govt in relation to the foreshore was focused on a sub-set of Kiwis, not on all Kiwis]

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  92. Inventory2 (10,342 comments) says:

    Frank said “Inventory 2: No Mark Burton in the House again today and I couldn’t see any marked point scoring by National even though the HRC submission was referred to.”

    The mere fact that Burton is “missing in action” so frequently (including the last three sitting days) would indicate that English & National have scored some pretty good hits on him. Like Damian O’Connor, Burton would appear to be a Minister in name (and salary & perks) only, waiting for the “Sword of Helencles” to fall.

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  93. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    [DPF: That the Govt in relation to the foreshore was focused on a sub-set of Kiwis, not on all Kiwis]

    And we Maori should have seen it that way,hmm.
    So it boils down to equality, you would agree then that Maori should get the same amount of
    compensation per household as is being paid
    to the Taranaki farmers who are on Maori
    land?

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  94. milo (525 comments) says:

    DPF, that is a completely unsupportable assertion in the face of the Orewa speech.

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  95. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    grumpy – I agree with you, I thought the billboards played the Race card.

    However, NZ is still a fair place in this respect – that people still are able to discuss their differences without too much rancour, and the billboards attempted also to tap into that aspect of the ‘(k)iwi’ psyche.

    In terms of the ‘race card’ and IWI-KIWI?, I do not think it was designed to divide pakeha and Maori – I think it was more a criticism of the ‘right-on’ attitude of Labour towards Maori. Having said that, it also proposed a neat little sop/inflammation to the uneducated too.

    Personally, I think Labour’s attitudes towards Maori has been a sugar-coated neo-colonialistic one, and the mainstream of NZ far from being stuck in some redneck nostalgia actually has a more common-sense attitude to the cross-racial issues that they encounter. Furthermore, when it comes to fanning racial issues, Labour are always happy to play the ‘redneck under the bed’ card when they are up against it, haven’t you noticed?

    So you have a National attitude which feels that it is fair game to play the ‘race-card’ not because it i seeking to divide, but because it believes it can draw together?

    Perhaps a charitable interpretation. However, bear in mind the Maori Party was not formed because of the National Party, it was formed because of the Labour Party. Also remember the ‘haters and wreckers’ remarks of Clark and the humiliating treatment of Turia.

    Imagine the outcry there would have been had Brash used that term, or treated Turia like that.

    Accuse the latest lot of National of racism if you would,but they have not actually acted in a racist fashion, (I would argue) like Labour have, who were prepared (with now repetitive willingness) to ignore/repeal/change the law over the foreshore and seabed rather than honour the Waitangi. Treaty.

    So -IWI-KIWI?- in light of this looks very different again, doesn’t it?

    Interestingly, Labour have proved themselves not to be race-based in one respect at least – they are totally prepared to screw everyone in NZ regardless of their race.

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  96. milo (525 comments) says:

    Excellent post Lee C. I would disagree to this extent: Labour talks well and does nothing. National talks in a challenging or apparentely racist fashion – but has a history of actuall delivering for Maori.

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  97. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    This is my point – I wouldn’t trust Labour if I were Maori. Because they are inherently two-faced. Always saying one thing, then screwing the other. At least National speak it like they see it.

    Also Orewa – ? So what? The strength of any debate is in the fact that it can be expressed and defended, or it falls because it is found wanting.
    Don’t get me wrong, I do not enjoy living in the freedom to express race-hate, or approve of it, but, I prefer to live in a society where people may speak their minds. If I disagree, I prefer to live in a society which gives me the freedom to disagree.

    It is too easy to fall back on the old lazy stereotypes.

    Brash=National=honky=racist, they don’t do it to Winston, but they do do it to Willy. Both sides of the spectrum do it. Helen does it all the time, she loves to tar people with the ‘R’ word, of course, no one would ever accuse her of it, even when she is caught with her hand in the cookie-jar. ‘The last cab off the rack’ indeed!

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  98. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Lee C
    Good god, of course labour believe in the
    They are simple people who need our guidance,
    so in that respect they are the same.

    And the foreshore issue should have gone to the courts.

    But notice David’s replies, he does not say that the billboards were out of order, or just
    plain wrong does he.

    Which is why I have trouble voting for the
    National party.
    And why I asked Craig the questions.

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  99. milo (525 comments) says:

    Well, Grumpyoldhori, I’m going to vote National, because I think Labour’s only beliefs are that the means jusify the ends, and that rich people have stolen their money from poor people. They don’t seem to have a single other policy.

    But I signed the petition aginst the Foreshore and Seabed act. Like you, I believe it should have been sorted out by the courts. And do you know who else believed that, and put out a press release? The Buiness Round Table. Go figure…

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  100. 1984 (89 comments) says:

    I’ve been reading this blog, without commenting, for a while. Maybe somebody could correct my understanding of the legalities of the Exclusive Brethren campaign.

    As I understood it, the EB consulted the Electoral Office about their ability to conduct 3rd party activity and stayed within the advice they received from that office. I.e there is no serious suggestion that they breached the law in any way that would actually be taken seriously in a court of law??

    Labour on the other hand were specifically advised by the Electoral Office that the pledge card should be included in electoral spending?? It wasn’t, so they definitively and deliberately (corruptly??) ‘overspent’??

    In fact, they also ignored advice from the Auditor General that the Leader’s Fund was not to be used for such expenditure.

    So in legalistic jargon, Labour ‘bought’ the election with ‘stolen’ money, while the EB spent their own money entirely legally. Did I miss an important edition of the DomPost??

    And as for that wanker who likes to comment on spelling and grammar in other posts while almost universally making dumb mistakes in his own, please give it a break.

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  101. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Milo Says.
    Delivering for Maori .
    My Dad got home wounded in 45 after service
    with the 28 Bat.
    After he recovered which took a while, a Nat
    government was in power.
    He applied to go in the ballot for a farm in the
    Waikato and was told it is not for the likes of you.
    Tell me, what was he fighting for, equality?

    Oh, should Maori get the same amount per
    household as is being paid to Taranaki farmers who are on Maori land?

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  102. milo (525 comments) says:

    Grumpyoldhori: The treatment of your father was a disgrace. He deserves our thanks, praise and honour. The Maori battaltion were some of the finest attack troops in the war, took huge casualities, and inflicted fear on their oponents. Kudos to them. And to your dad.

    And also, many iwi stood up for WWII when they didn’t have to, and could have boycotted the war as they did WWI. (Interestingly, history shows they were probably right!).

    So, as for solving Maori problems. My belief is this: Maori have suffered injustice. This injustice carries over generations. It is not always as great at they claim, because some of the “injustice” comes from choosing to wage war and losing. But nonetheless, it is there, and it is componounded by colonisation, and colonial diseases. It will only be gone when Maori succeeed and fail at the same rate as Pakeha. And that still seems a long way off.

    Mind you, I have grave doubts about the current structure of Maori leadership. But that is another debate.

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  103. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    I gotta be honest, i am questioning my own vote for National because of the inept way they are handling the EFB.

    grumpy, times move and so do people. There was a time I would never even consider a vote for a conservative government – I am from a Labour background and am waaay left of some of these trendy smart-arse labourites you hear from on here.

    But, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and that is where the Labour Party are now. Yeah I’d vote for the Maori Party even though some of their supporters might not give me the time of day because of the oppressions of my forefathers. I’d vote National just to keep Labour out, because they sin’t what I’d call a labour Party, they are a bunch of snotty-nosed academics and spoilt brats who never did a proper days’ work in their lives.

    Knowing what you know, would you say the same, if you thought it would promote the lesser of the evils?

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  104. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Re the Taranaki farmers and households – you’d have to explain that to me.

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  105. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    I share your sentiments about WW1.
    One bloke who should have been honoured but
    got nothing was Colonel Malone of the Wellington Regiment, that was an utter disgrace.

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  106. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    milo Says.
    Colonial disease, funny that, when some talk of a holocaust in NZ, they forget that the influenza
    epidemic was not fussy about who it took.

    Same as that bloody polio, I lost two friends to
    that, one Maori, one Pakeha, so I wish some
    would read facts before tossing the word
    holocaust around.

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  107. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Lee C
    If i had my way I would drag Mike Moore back
    to form a centre party, we just won’t give him a
    chance to say no.

    There is a good chance I will vote for the Nats
    for the same reasons as you.

    But, jeez , why the hell cant politicians sort out
    the important matters, like super, Australia may
    not have the best, but it is better than we have.

    Healthcare, which system around the world
    gives the best bang for the buck, go that way.

    Bloody labels, left wing, right wing, I want a
    government that has policies to make NZ a
    better place for all.

    I find it amusing that the Nordic countries who
    have liberal social welfare are a damn sight
    richer than we are.

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  108. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Grumpy, I hear ya. The present political mentality in NZ is actually still stuck in the 1980s. You only have to read some of the mindless partisan crap that some post on kiwiblog to see that.

    Politicians actually creating legislation that serves the peole.

    Wash your mouth out with soap.

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  109. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    much respect to your dad (and the others) for what did he (they)did..gtumpyoldhori..

    the way our maori soldiers were (mis)treated/ignored by ungrateful governments..after both world wars..

    is a shameful (racist) blot on our history…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  110. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    ps grumpy, speaking as a pom, I find nordic countries tend to be inherently amusing, regardless of what they are doing.

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  111. Ross Miller (1,704 comments) says:

    For Lee C .. I repeat again. The ONLY opposition to the EFB is being orchestrated by National. The problem is simply that Labour has stitched up a majority by buying off manir parties with the promise that they can use monies from their Leaders Fund to finance their election campaigns.

    What more do you want … marches? riots? blood on the streets? and just what would that achieve because at the end of the day Labour has the numbers and will push this through. No, the time will be election day. That’s how it works in a ‘democracy’ (touches wood).

    Grumpyoldhori … stop playing the race card. The soldiers I have been privileged to command on operations went as New Zealanders and were treated equally. If your father missed out on a farm ballot tough … many Pakeha soldiers did too … thats what happens when you participate in a lottery.

    But if your point is that respective Governments could have done more to help the Veteran community then no argument. The ‘con’ currently being perpetrated by Winston First and his so called Veterans Goldcard is a case in point.

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