Free Speech Coalition saddened by passage of Electoral Finance Bill
The FSC put out this press release this afternoon:
The Free Speech Coalition, set up to campaign against the Electoral Finance Bill, is sad that MPs from Labour, NZ First, and the Greens have ignored the massive public sentiment against the bill.
The Act discourages individuals and groups from participating in the electoral process and spending their own money, while at the same time allows MPs and parliamentary parties to far more easily use taxpayer funds on their election campaigns and not even have it count towards their spending limits. It is the ultimate act in hypocrisy.
The MPs have
• Ignored the Law Society’s advice that the Bill should be scrapped
• Ignored the Human Rights Commission opposition to the regulated period, and their request to allow the public to submit on the amended Bill
• Ignored the NZ Institute of Charted Accountant’s advice that the Bill is unworkable
• Ignored the Electoral Commission’s advice on spending limits
• Failed to provide legislative certainty around the exemptions for MPs
• Protected anonymous donations with massive loopholes which may result in less, not more, disclosure
• Continually misrepresented key clauses of the Bill“New Zealand has no written constitution. At the end of the day 61 MPs in Parliament can pass any law they like, no matter how repugnant. Previously constitutional conventions have protected Acts like the Electoral Act, but the passage of the Electoral Finance Bill sees the demise of that convention.” said spokesperson David Farrar.
“We hoped the parties supporting this Bill would listen to the near universal opposition from the media, from the legal profession, and from the public and do the right thing. Sadly they have chosen not to.
“We do not believe there should be no consequences for those parties which passed the Electoral Finance Act into law. The NZ Herald correctly labeled it as an “Attack on Democracy” and we believe it is time for Democracy to attack back.
“The Free Speech Coalition will commence an advertising campaign tomorrow against parties and MPs which voted for the Electoral Finance Act. This campaign will continue into 2008. A media advisory with details of the campaign will be released tomorrow.
ENDS
December 18th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Goffs just given a eulogy to Helen in the house. Sounds of knives being sharpened I think.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Yes, he talked a bit about the leadership. He basically said: Helens had a great run but we all know its my turn next!
December 18th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
He must be more stupid than he looks as he will be on the opposition benches for at least as long as Moses wandered in the wilderness.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
I was surprised Goff mentioned how fond he is of the new electoral laws.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
Ahhhh Biblical parable time is it Johnboy? How about Winnie as King Canute, railing against the inrushing tide of electoral oblivion while wondering why he’s getting that wet, warm feeling in his toga when the sea’s only up to his ankles?
Or Dunne as a latter-day Lot’s wife, so transfixed with Helen that his career turns not so much to salt but to s**t?
Cartoonists could have a field day…
December 18th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Alright Labour, let the litigation begin.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
I endured the debate on TV today and almost wept. You and I go to work to pay for the awful stupidity and banality that passes for debate. I have paid tax for 50 years, so why do I feel so bad about what is being done to us now? Ah shit!
December 18th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Good old Peter Dunne. Six months of open opportunity to act on principle, and stand up for the oppositon to the Bill. Then in the final hour, crosses over, when he knows his gesture is about as useful as pissing on a bonfire, in the hope taht his actions will show us what a ‘principled’ politician he is.
What an arsehole.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
PS today was the day that the split in the Labour Party went public. Mark my words.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Labour is fooling themselves if they think attention over the EFA will end next year. This isn’t the end, but the begining of a battle which will end with a change of govt. Role on 2008.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
If Tim Shadbolt wants to use my high profile shop window its available now – 9 cents a week.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
What a bugger! Still, as someone said on one of the other posts, the countdown is on til the election.
This will be my last post of the year, as Mrs Inventory and I head off to Africa on Thursday, and there is still three week’s work to be done in 24hrs!! My Christmas message is here……
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2007/12/merry-christmas-to-all-and-to-all.html
See you all in election year – if it’s not illegal!
December 18th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Have a good one Inventory – I have enjoyed your company – felicitations.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
Thats right Lee,
Are all these ……….ahem, “bright”, new candidates for going to back the EFB, when on the hustings and facing a hostile electorate?
When questioned, what will someone like Fairbrother say in Napier. Remember he doesn’t have a list place parachute so he needs to court popularity.
How ever, given the well established duplicity of this shambolic so called government. I wouldn’t be surprised if some false sop of a compromise is offered if the polls persist as they are. Some sort of a review, bipartisan of course………oh but only after they have financed their campaign with our money!
December 18th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
It warms my cockles to see so many optimistic N Zers out in blog land.
Labour constituents have incredibly short memories and lack the intelligence to hear anything beyond “rich pricks” and “hollow men”. In short they are dumb…
I look forward to be proven wrong – if not the last one to leave in December 2008 please turn the lights out.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Yes Boomtown, which is why national need to lead forst with a policy based on getting a Royal Commission set up and a proper consultative process rolling otherwise, Labour will keep the initiative.
Given their record so far, I have no conficence that they will come up with anything particularly inventive or smacking of leadership on this issue.
I’d love to be proved wrong, though…
December 18th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Rex Widerstrom Says:
“Ahhhh Biblical parable time is it Johnboy?”
Wonderful Rex if only Cecil B De Mille was still around. Ron Mark as Yul Bryner and Hodgson as Pharoahs chief minister denying the plague about to descend on both their houses while Woolerton as the big nosed Egytian kept chanting “Seven votes in favour” as the red sea closed over his head.
“All in the best possible taste” of course as Kenny Everett would have said
December 18th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Heard David on newstalk it seems the fun may have only begun. There is something in the wind. What ever it is I hope Liarbore and their arse licking traitors rue this day for the rest of their political lives. These bastards deserve no mercy.
Have fun in Africa I2, prehaps you can find a nice position for Dear Leader over there as she obviously admires some of their politics.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
I must say though, the National, Maori, Act contribution today certainly had the air of government in waiting.
Compared with Dunne, Peters, Green and the Labour mob, just looked like they have desperately lost the plot!
December 18th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Stephen Franks has a good post and a copy of an ad he will be running in Capital Times on his website re the EFb
See http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz
Well worth a look
December 18th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
My parents spent 6 years living under an unpopular imposed regime based around a Socialist Workers Party.
Under that regime certain people had to register with the state authorities, the ruling party changed the rules to suit themselves, taking over my fathers family business, and evicting my mothers family from their house.
Yes, I am talking about the Nazi occupation of The Netherlands during WWII.
About the only difference between them and what the Labour Party are inching their way towards, is that Third Parties do not yet have to wear a yellow star on their clothing.
Down with Labour and their collaborators. This issue needs to be kept well up in the public consciousness.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Funnily enough I see tricky Micky has just found the key to his money bin and we may get TWO yes TWO tax cuts next year as he has suddenly deemed them not to cause inflation anymore. Call me a cynical prick if you like but is this the spoonful of sugar to help the EFB medicine go down?
December 18th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Try here for the good news.
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/071218/3/3cai.html
December 18th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Note the difference between Chavez and Clark. Chavez, Mr 21st century socialism, himself was prepared to put significant constitutional change to a referndum. Clark is prepared to alienate huge segments of society and ignore the best advice to rush something through that she sees as increasing her chances of the 4th term. I am going to hold National to their pledge to rid us of this law before the end of 2008.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
If I was John Key, I would be spending Christmas preparing for 2008. Laba got a well deserved hiding in 2007 but MALLARD’S quick apology and the Electoral Forgery Bill passing I believe Laba will hit 2008 spouting Tax Cuts and money for everyone and hope that the electorate has short memories.
National need to be straegizing so that after the Christmas break they are out of the blocks continuing to hammer Laba all through 2008.
I believe that John KEY needs to be heading this so that people can see him more as the next Prime Minister rather than being a figurehead with able lieutenants doing all the donkey work.
I reckon this Government are going to act in 2008 like a wounded bull, lashing out at everyone in their path.
I believe that Laba are going to be vulnerable and increasingly brittle.
As they come under mounting pressure from all quarters, something is going to give………..early election anyone?
Having given my 2 cents worth I’ll crawl back under the rock I crawled out from and await Polling Day 2008 if Laba hasn’t planned to taken that away as well.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Just thought of a theme song for a future ‘registered third party’ lobbying to repeal the EFA:
“We’re not gonna take it” by Twisted Sister. An oldie, but in this case very much a goodie.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Helens theme for a fourth term “Slip sliding away”.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
or “yesterday”.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Tina’s been predicting tax cuts to still the NZ masses for a while….Aust. is too close for Mickey’s comfort, the comparisons too toxic…..
When Labour get really desperate look for a semi Aust style Supperannuation Scheme to replace the NZ Pension.
A smart Key would beat them to it with a wholesale copy.
Expect goodies galore in the election run up
December 18th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Is it the xmas do at Helens place? No trolls might have to have an early night.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Further, Hulun knows the mendicant vote is locked in…so most of the sweetners will be middle class welfare.
Socialists hate tax cuts…..their preference is to dispense largess to target groups.
Watch.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
I have a couple of questions:
Does the EFB prevent viral advertising? eg amusing political cartoons (such as home-made Tui ads) that are spread by email. Or political satire posted to YouTube.
Are we allowed to watch “FaceLift” on TV during election year?
December 18th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Jimmie don;t crawl under any rocks soon, I liked what you had to offer. It would be good to seemore people proposing national Strategy, as they seem a little light on it at present… ?
December 18th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
tina – see my comment here.
perhaps it’s already started?
December 18th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
“Battle Stations”. The warning shots have been fired so let the battle commence to rid the Treasury Benches of these mobsters.
2008: The year New Zealanders wrested back their Democratic Rights.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:21 am
Free Speech Coalition saddened by passage of Electoral Finance Bill
Ironic what rich people get sad about aye?
December 19th, 2007 at 7:42 am
Rebel Heart not just the rich… read this:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0712/S00417.htm
I thought it was pure gold. (Thanks Barnsley Bill)
December 19th, 2007 at 7:48 am
DPF can we have a list of all those who voted for this Bill, with email addresses/constituencies? or is that illegal?
December 19th, 2007 at 8:12 am
Certainly I would urge Kiwis overseas to put together campaigns that pledge to spend as much as they get and to use the internet to campaign. If the site and the owners are not in NZ lets watch Helen try to enforce her stupid legislation. Second, for the next year people need to remind the public how fascists like Winston and loony lefties like the Green have betrayed the voters. Wintson First must be obliterated completely.
As I understand it the crime is in the spending not in the donating so Kiwis are free to donate to anyone they wish. So if the spending party is located outside NZ they basically can spend all they want. And there is plenty of advertising they can do in New Zealand via the internet. In addition the law can’t force individual papers or websites to not carry an ad for going over the limit since the individuals have no way of auditing what others spend. The entire enforcement has to be directed against the spending party and if they are outside NZ Helen can’t do much. If this is what people must do to express themselves I say make the most of it.
December 19th, 2007 at 8:28 am
In the meantime here’s a link that Helen and Co might find useful:
http://www.industrysearch.co.nz/Products/3M_Transparent_Duct_Tape-7602
December 19th, 2007 at 8:29 am
This from the NZ Herald today:
So Shadblot and co are going to be under surveillance. More of a case in NZ now democracy is under surveillance.
December 19th, 2007 at 8:39 am
I hear on the radio this morning that MPs will be attending a workshop so that they can actually understand the law they just put through.
Madness…
December 19th, 2007 at 8:43 am
checkthefacts – hmmm, the overseas angle is interesting. does the new law make it illegal to import and then distribute political advertising material with a value of more than $120,000? i would assume the limit only applies to the NZ distribution costs, not the offshore design & manufacturing costs?
December 19th, 2007 at 8:44 am
fletch – it should be a short workshop. you see, it’s just common sense.
December 19th, 2007 at 8:44 am
Oops, forgot to post the url of the article I quoted from:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10483198
December 19th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Paypal trx to ebay ‘auctions’, anyone?
December 19th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Fletch said “I hear on the radio this morning that MPs will be attending a workshop so that they can actually understand the law they just put through.”
If so then that is just bizarre. How on earth can they pass a law if they don’t understand it?
This is something the MSM could pick up and place squarely in front of the public. At least the public recognises bullshit in a flash.
December 19th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Fletch said “I hear on the radio this morning that MPs will be attending a workshop so that they can actually understand the law they just put through.”
If so then that is just bizarre. How on earth can they pass a law if they don’t understand it?
This is something the MSM could pick up and place squarely in front of the public. the public recognises bullshit in a flash.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:04 am
I am experienced in tax law drafting and don’t know yet what they have passed – how can they/
Ah well, they have done it before: some legislation has had to be hastily amended because it didn’t do as expected. Watch for another Finance Bill in the new year where such corrective measure are included.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:08 am
I do seem to recall predicting a long torrid three years for this sorry crew. But I’m just desperately sad for all of New Zealand that they have chosen the crushing-of-dissent route. There’s no good ending to this story.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:11 am
“The Electoral Commission has hired a firm to begin surveillance of political advertising from January 1.”
Oh how unusual… the fascists are whipping the Gestapo into action. I wonder how close events here and how will follow Germany 1930’s?
December 19th, 2007 at 10:08 am
The ramifications of this bill are starting already.
Think about the implications of this simple phrase.
“The Electoral Commission has hired a firm to begin surveillance of political advertising from January 1.”
It chills my blood that we are now resident in a country where a state organisation is tasked with monitoring what we say about the government.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:19 am
Interesting and coincidental that the BBC are asking for opinion on the value of freedom of speech – http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/freetospeak/
pity Helen Clarks NZ is not mentioned with Cuba, Zimbabwe et al.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Slightly
Can we have the name & address of this firm now, just in case it will be illegal to know after 1/1/2008, possible that some may consider such a firm unsuitable to do business with!
December 19th, 2007 at 10:22 am
It chills my blood that we are now resident in a country where a state organisation is tasked with monitoring what we say about the government.
Quoted For Truth.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:26 am
All my life, I have secretly harboured a desire to be a clandestine rebel, railing agaist watchdog organisms of the state.
It appears my time has come!
I will not be silenced, and I reckon a few cans of Spray Paint will keep me well under the $12,000 limit. None of the taggers around Auckland seem to get arrested, and at least mine will be
a. Legible; and
b. In English!
I note that the Herald will be reproducing, monthly, to inform and enlighten, pictures of all the MP’s who voted for this law!
December 19th, 2007 at 10:33 am
I am intrigued by an item in the Herald’s article this morning, where our esteemed leader is quoted as stating that under the Electoral Finance Act, Mayor Shadbolts’s campaign would not be illegal nor subject to any restrictions, provided it was issues based (Herald – not critical either directly or indirectly of the government). In and of itself that is in fact a constraint, an example of doublespeak at it’s very best.
Now I seem to remember that this is an area which has been described as grey at best, the issue of issues advertising and campaigns. However, I am at a loss to imagine a campaign on an issue which by it’s very nature would not take a position. Consequently, by taking a position it opposes/supports a position on which one or other of the parties has a policy is it not thus supporting/opposing a policy of a party and thus subject to the law.
If Police/Electoral Commission discretion is exercised and no action taken unless you are a supporter/ opponenet with the wrong beliefs, we then have unelected officials deciding on what speech is legal!
In this regard I was apalled to hear a law professor from Otago reported on Morning Report as saying Electoral Commission would be very careful in this area and unlikely to prosecute Shadbolt. Either there is a law or there is not. What was worse I gained an impression, maybe incorrectly, that he saw not a lot wrong with the law. Selective enforcement = Facist state.
Registration = Intimidation = Police State = Dictatorship.
Re the comments above on advertising surveillance, that statement chills me to the bone, as given the variety of media and the broad nature of the law, the implications are that everything we say or do is now being monitored by organs of the STATE. Not only has Animal Farm been realised in this law, but 1984 has arrived with a vengeance. Has no one noticed how Orwellian in tone pronuouncements by Winston, Annette King , Cullen and Clark have been getting recently!
Finally on a different note, I see that the Subordinate Post has very little to say on the matter, yet again.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Freethinker.
Talk to the Electoral Commission, although I think they’ll be busy trying to interpret this POS legislation to give you an answer.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:47 am
I am looking forward to hearing details of the billboard campaign that is pending from the Free Speech Coalition. Another donation is imminent.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:25 am
I try to avoid the centre of Auckland, so if someone can put up jpgs of the billboards, I’ll stick them up in my business’ window.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:33 am
best wishes IV2 take care in Africa and you and Mrs IBV2 return,
DPF Can I ask that you put together a checklist in the New Year to help those of us who want to bombard the EC and Police with complaints over every Socialist party advert propoganda piece.
As I have already posted this is a legitimate way to tie up both the EC the Police and the Socialists having to deal with each complaint.
To the usual suspects I say Alls fair in love and war and IMHO the Socialists have just declared war on me.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:41 am
John Stuart Mill (1806–1873). On Liberty. 1869.
Chapter II: Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion
THE TIME, it is to be hoped, is gone by, when any defence would be necessary of the “liberty of the press” as one of the securities against corrupt or tyrannical government. No argument, we may suppose, can now be needed, against permitting a legislature or an executive, not identified in interest with the people, to prescribe opinions to them, and determine what doctrines or what arguments they shall be allowed to hear.
I guess Mr Mills was incorrect.
Read the whole essay here.
http://www.bartleby.com/130/2.html
December 19th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Of interest is the immunity of the blogosphere to Labour’s EFB.
The only way blogs can be censored is to block access to their overseas sites in much the same way as the Chinese govt does for broadly similar reasons.
Wonder if Google will be compliant in blocking searches for Kiwiblog in Aust that contains daily affront to the EFB?…..it helps the comrades in China so anything’s possible.
The net will gain more power and credibility as politics is shut down elsewhere.
Labour’s analogue thinkers will eventually understand the law of unintended consequences.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
I see a myriad of entrepreneurial possibilities in the old sight-gags line – T-shirts which contain part slogans (“Don’t” “Vote” “Labour”), adverts with lots of blacked-out words and the tag “Censored by Labour’s E F’ing Act”, graffiti kits (who ever stopped That?), and so on. Human inventiveness is a marvellous thing.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Looks farrar and his band of merry fools have had to take down their first billboard in Auckland.
Confused ?
Well what would you expect from people who wouldnt understand more than 5 words unless its printed on the side of a champagne bottle
December 19th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Every effort to voice the truth about this scandalous legislation must lay the blame on Helen Clarks corrupt and self interest driven desire for power. I hope that Paul Holmes dispenses with the bullshit tomorrow when he speaks with Clark on ZB and sticks it right to her.His first question should be, “What sort of a gutless Front Bench did not show up yesterday to hear the final speeches
My other fear is that this whole EFB debate is a red herring to precede some really outlandish “Climate Change Con“ next year, followed by an early election.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Taking down billboards is only the first step Ghost. Who will stand for you when they come to silence your voice after all the other voices have been silenced!
December 19th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Dave’s next billboard…..
“Beat the EFB….. for uncensored politics go Kiwiblog.com.au.”
December 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
I would like to call to the bloggers attention, this statement from Chapter II: Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion, written by John Stuart Mill in 1869.
“I desire to call attention to the fact, that a man who has been deemed fit to fill a high office in the government of this country, under a liberal Ministry, maintains the doctrine that all who do not believe in the divinity of Christ are beyond the pale of toleration. Who, after this imbecile display, can indulge the illusion that religious persecution has passed away, never to return?”
December 19th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
I assume Farrars Free speech Coalition gets his billboards approved by the Advertising Standards Board ( the industry body) since telling big lies is NOT allowed.
Commercial speech is not free speech as this bunch of dazed and confused busybodies will find out.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Every
F-ckers Yeah Right
Brainwashed
December 19th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Should be;
Every
F-ckers——–Yeah Right!!
Brainwashed
December 19th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Oh absolutely GWW, no inaccuracies on billboards at all. Helen has to lose the airbrush too!
December 19th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
GWW, of course commercial speech is free speech. You see, that’s the thing – you morons seem to think that if you have to pay to speak then it is outside the realm of ‘free speech’ but that is total and utter bullshit. Free speech means the freedom to say whatever you want, when you want, as often as you want and as loud as you want. Sometimes that costs to do. Free speech is nought to do with whether one pays to speak. You leftists twist the truth of free speech to suit your own agenda.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
It is the beginning of the end. How can this corrupt government endorse the fact that the Electoral Commission will be hiring an organisation to conduct surveillance. Yes, surveillance on you and me and the general population of New Zealand.
This is the politics of a third world country.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
test
December 19th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
wtf happened to my comment on this thread..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
December 19th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10483289
This law is so great that it needs this to sort it out in the new year!
December 19th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Standing back from the EF Bill debacle we need to see this as a tipping point for the effect of public opinion on the passage of law. I don’t think UF’s change at the last minute is a flipflop, this party lobbied hard at the Select Committee stage for major changes to the Bill, entered into a very open debate on its views about the Bill and for the last 2 weeks its caucus have been actively considering what really the state of public opinion was about democratic freedom. UF takes a very strong stance on democracy in line with its principles, and as on many other occasions has exercised its vote aginst the Government when, despite all its efforts, both publicly and behind the scenes, the proposed Bill does not accord with what it stands for. This to me is what democracy is really all about and those detractors of Peter Dunne in your column need to look behind the public actions and understand not only the man but the core principles of this party.
December 19th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
rouppe
Before you open your yap about any kiwis sunshine , a few bloody facts about Holland and Labour.
A lot of jews were dragged out of their houses
by the Dutch to be sent to the death camps.
There was proud Dutch battalions of SS
bastards serving with their hun brothers.
There was no Kiwi Labour types who dragged Jews out of their houses to send
them to death camps when they served
with the 2NZEF.
Nor did we have battalions of Labour types
joining the SS bastards.
So read some bloody history.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Hori
I am relating the experiene of my family at the hands of the Nazi’s. The Nazi party was a socialist party (National Socialist German Workers Party). I think I’m pretty up to speed with that aspect of history that relates to my family’s experiences.
The NZ Labour party has placed restrictions on free speech, have instituted a government section to engage in covert surveillance of the political views of the population, and required the population to register with the state if they want to publicly express a political view in any significant way. By significant I mean more than waving a few placards. It is my opinion that there are some strong parallels that can be drawn.
There is nothing that I have said that is inaccurate. Your comments are not relevant to the statements I have made. You would have to look far to find any race that had not engaged in some sort of atrocities at some point in their history – yours included Hori.
You seem to have forgotten that bit of history where upon liberation of The Netherlands those Dutch that did collaborate were swiftly held to account by the anti-Nazi Dutch majority.
There is a groundswell of people in this country that are also preparing to do some accounting of their own.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
rouppe
Trying to compare Labour with the Nazis is rather poor form.
And is an insult to all kiwis who fought in a
European war.
The Dutch, easy to take part in celebrations
when you had been liberated by others,
including kiwis.
Doing a comparison between the Dutch and the Danes and Finns, the Dutch came up
well short in helping the Jewish people.
I do not remember Horis sending people to
death camps.
Accounting of your own, good luck dear boy.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
grumpyoldhori
I think you are missing a valuable point here. rouppe is comparing the treatment of a ‘group’ of people by a ruling govt with a ‘group’ of people by a ruling govt. If rouppe (and his family of survivors) see a similarity then we as readers need to STFU with our preconceptions and sensitivities and listen.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
First they came…
First they came for the EB, the Catholics were given an exemption to campaign for child poverty, what about the Scientologists there must be some of them fuckers in NZ, haul em out and restrict their ability to publish their views, it’s in our best interest. While we are at it lets have a crack at the Islamics as well… OH, problem… can’t do that so lets just stop all third parties spending more than the same amount of money that qualifies for WFF… If your poor, you can’t afford to campaign against a party spending millions, if your rich you’re not allowed to spend it campaigning…. perfect – level playing field as described by Labour.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Hori,
You also fail to mention those Dutch that got out before the Occupation and joined Allied battalions. You also fail to mention the Underground that ferried escaped Allied prisoners out of Holland – including Kiwis. You also fail to mention that The Netherlands declared themselves neutral – wanting no part of Hitler – but were invaded anyway and over-run. As were many other much larger countries in that region at that stage of the war.
I know its what you want because it then diverts attention but I’m not going to rise enter into a insult competition with you by mentioning what Hori did do. You are one of those types that like to put words in others mouths. I never said that Maori sent people to death camps, I said most races – including Maori – committed atrocities at some stage in their history.
If you want to refute the parallels that I originally drew, fine go for it. But if all you’re going to do is some mud-slinging hoping some sticks, forget about it.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
I found something very useful on the standard! Zen Tiger has an excellent post here: Mangled Carta
December 19th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
rouppe
You are trying to draw parallels between
a scrap between two political partys and
supporters on both sides and genocide in
Europe.
Now I may have been harsh, but, I have three
members of my family buried overseas because of that war, and even trying to draw
parallels makes no sense.
Are you suggesting that NZ could drop into
the situation that was the Balkans in the
nineties?
If so it will not happen, there would be a lot
of politicians locked up from all sides before
we got to that stage.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
burt
By a group of people you mean the EB?
If so should every male in NZ have the same rights and responsibilities, with no exceptions?
Could you explain why my kid brother was
called up for military training, but the EB got
a pass?
So total equality with no exceptions?
December 20th, 2007 at 12:03 am
grumpyoldhori
Are you suggesting ‘one rule for all’. Can I now call you a racist?
December 20th, 2007 at 7:13 am
Hori
It is never pleasant to lose family in war. My uncle still has a bullet in him from his service in the Spanish Civil War. He was subject to compulsory military service at the time and had no choice.
The way that the 2NZEF ended up in the war is by the then Prime Minister Michael Joseph Savage declaring war on Germany, and by volunteers joining up.
I am drawing parallels between a government in the 30’s and 40’s that was totalitarian, unable to tolerate dissent, and downright evil, and a government of 2000-2007 that is so far two of those things. I am publishing these thoughts precisely because I fear where the trend is heading.
It is nonsense that because I have such distaste for this government that I apply those thoughts to Labour and its supporters throughout history. Just as it is nonsense to brand Germans now by the standard of Germans then.
I have absolutely no idea what you’re trying to say with the Balkans thing.
December 20th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Hori I retract what I said about the Expeditionary Force being volunteers. At the outbreak of the war there was no conscription so enlisted men were volunteers, but conscrption was introduced 9 months later.