A new website

January 2nd, 2008 at 12:32 pm by David Farrar

People are stubborn creatures. If you tell us you can’t do something, then someone will go and do it, even though they never would have done it before it became prohibited.

The irony of the Electoral Finance Act is it may lead to many more people going out of their way to campaign against a party or parties, then would have been the case when there were no significant restrictions on doing so.

So with that I note some people have set up a website called Don’t Vote Labour. It is clearly an illegal election advertisement under the Electoral Finance Act as it advocates against a party, and does not have a name and address of its promoter on the site.

They even have this badge people can put on their own sites:

www.dontvotelabour.org.nz

Of course if Labour, United Future, NZ First and the Greens had not voted down the amendment which would have expanded the exemption for non-commercial blogs to all non-commercial Internet speech, then the site wouldn’t be illegal.

Incidentally I’ve had nothing to do with the site (as in first I knew about it was an e-mail), but one of the creators has asked me to do a short summary of the EFA for the site, which I have provided to them.

No tag for this post.

290 Responses to “A new website”

  1. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    I saw this from a link yesterday and thought there was an authorisation on the “about us”page. But maybe I’m mixing it up with a different new site I saw yesterday?

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  2. David Farrar (1,897 comments) says:

    I think they are planning to have an authorisation statement as they asked me what it needs to be. But as the site is public without it, they are in breach.

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  3. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Graeme

    I’m sure there was an authorisation there yesterday. It seems to be gone today.

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  4. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Ineresting I got a txt from:

    021 061 63 69

    They said “Hi James check out this site. http://www.dontvotelabour.org.nz if you like it please pass it on to friends and family. (Irs time 4 a change.)

    I’m guessing thats Cameron Slater.

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  5. andymoore (74 comments) says:

    People. Yes, there was authorisation there yesterday. Dad was not too happy when he saw our family’s address there. So I need someone else’s home address for the site. Who’s game… ;)

    Wow, I’m getting this huge rush. Am I the first person to break the EFA?

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  6. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Very, very funny!

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  7. andymoore (74 comments) says:

    Simeon I believe, James.

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  8. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    DPF – there’s a reasonable argument that (assuming there was an authorisation statement when the site went up) that this statement:

    For example the anti John Key video done by The Standard would break the law if done in 2008, as it does not include a name and address of its promoter/producer.

    and this statement:

    But as the site is public without it, they are in breach.

    cannot both be true.

    If the don’t vote labour website counts as being stored electronically (i.e. published) not only when it was put up, but subsequently as well, then the Standard’s piece on YouTube is also being published as we speak (and now needs an authorisation statement).

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  9. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Andy did you txt me?

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  10. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Andy – I don’t believe so. I think Tim Shadbolt probably broke it before you.

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  11. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (346 comments) says:

    So is this morning’s Dominion Post Editorial, commenting on Helen Clark and indicating [as I read it] that she is loosing it a bit – is that illegal? There is no name of authorisation

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  12. andymoore (74 comments) says:

    James I didn’t txt you, but I forwarded your 027 number through to Simeon.

    Guys, they designed this piece of law so that the courts could have a field day – who knows what exactly is ok and what is not. Let’s say that I’m just storing the site online. I mean… ;) I can’t help it if people access it and promote it can I?

    It’s a dirty great big can of worms.

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  13. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Andy ; if you need an address – email me off line and I am more than happy to put my address to anything that helps with the destruction of this feminazi regime of corrupt scum !! We are at the mercy of a totally irrational government and political idiocy of the highest order . Snap election as Labour are history. Just ask anybody on the street .

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  14. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Is Simeon your brother or something Andy?

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  15. john (478 comments) says:

    i posted my address, who gives a shit, child killers walk around on parole freely people tag the witches home freely , and you lot worry about the pussy left and their plebe hangers on.(does the brick thrower post on this site ,who knows) ps legel aid exists and labour cannot have to many union members hauled into the courts ,in an election year,HA. John

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  16. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Forget the messenger – read the message.

    Don’t vote Labour

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  17. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    burt – dipshit, remember what Labour have done fo you and this country.

    DON’T VOTE NATIONAL

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  18. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “remember what Labour have done fo you and this country.”

    Do you mean appalling child abuse statistics James ?

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  19. andymoore (74 comments) says:

    James, we do remember what Labour has done for us and the country, that’s why we’re saying.

    DON’T VOTE LABOUR

    John – I’m not scared – but you must agree that I shouldn’t drag my family into this. You’re saying that you’re willing to be a “stakeholder” at some level, and have your address on the about page of the website?

    D4J – thanks for the offer – but you’re a hunted man I believe, otherwise I would snap up your offer.

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  20. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Andy – it is a dangerous place when you are right and the government is wrong .

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  21. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    URGENT: Dear fellow NZder, New Zealand is currently experiencing a wave of strong anti-ideas, pro money dirty capitalists who are adament that elections should be bought. Please show your support by forwarding this message to all your contacts and remember to NOT vote National!

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  22. andymoore (74 comments) says:

    Who are you talking to James? I think this may just be the wrong forum for advertising a National-slander campaign.

    We are not anti-ideas. We are pro-money.

    Do you think DVL should be illegal? (as it currently is for a short while) What’s your honest opinion on that?

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  23. AGJ (562 comments) says:

    I remember what Labour have done and I will be voting for National this coming election.

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  24. pdm (844 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    A couple of days ago I and a few other people gave you some good advice which I suggest you should revisit. You are heading down that obnoxious road again!!!

    You say `remember what Labour has done for you”

    As a 61 year old white, heterosexual, middle class male who has been married for almost 38 years – I can safely say – NOT A BLOODY THING EXCEPT RAISE MY BLOOD PRESSURE!!!

    Don’t vote Labour, or Green or NZ First.

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  25. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I’m sorry because I hold a different opinion to you that makes me obnoxious?

    So would you like to be called obnoxious because you hold a different opinion to me? No

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  26. andymoore (74 comments) says:

    Or United Future.

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  27. andymoore (74 comments) says:

    Care to answer my question James?

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  28. Policy Parrot (174 comments) says:

    I sincerely hope these people do pursue their goals and reap the consequences of their contempt for the law.

    Maybe then they might sympathise and even join a campaign against forced sex in prisons.

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  29. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    James Sleep you are obnoxious, not because of your political views but because of the way you attack everyone. You know what I mean, just the same way that most of you lefties talk, with anger and venom.

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  30. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “remember what Labour have done fo you and this country.”

    Do you mean the appalling statistic, a sad indictment to which one million kiwi’s are on prescribed happy pills – James ?

    March election, landslide for the right . I think so.

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  31. pdm (844 comments) says:

    James you are obnoxious because:
    1. You play the man not the ball.
    2. A lot of your comments are juvenile – to be expected I suppose given your age and the current education system.
    3. You are not able to articulate your views in a reasonable manner.

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  32. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “Maybe then they might sympathise and even join a campaign against forced sex in prisons.”

    Nice one Peter !!

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  33. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    ” their contempt for the law.”

    For example , Helen , Phillip, Trevor etc…etc…

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  34. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    I’m sorry because I hold a different opinion to you that makes me obnoxious?

    No James, what makes you obnoxious is comments like this.

    burt – dipshit, remember what Labour have done fo you and this country.

    DON’T VOTE NATIONAL

    James, like you I’m entitled to my own opinion without being called a dipshit simply because I disagree with you.

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  35. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    Policy Parrot, you’ve got to admire the “cajones” of these people, anonymous sites and bricks through windows, a few hours in Auckland central should be a breeze.

    [DPF: If you have a problem with anonymous sites expressing political views I know of two sites you might want to condemn]

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  36. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Policy Parrot

    I sincerely hope these people do pursue their goals and reap the consequences of their contempt for the law.

    It’s all under control, all they will do is pass retrospective validation and then carry on – OH that’s right only self serving corrupt politicians can give themselves a get out of jail free card at the tax payers expense.

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  37. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “A few hours in Auckland central ”

    This from the pro -liberation left ? Or the pro – communist left ? My money is on the later .

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  38. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Silly me I meant latter. Just for those twisted pc socialist language purist’s .

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  39. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    Peter, you’re on a benefit and you can afford to gamble?.

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  40. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Once again – I don’t vote National… Ahh shit I might have just broken the law! Ummm errr – I did not vote for National in the last election – Oh bugger I’m still on shaky ground. Yes look what Labour have done for me.

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  41. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “Peter, you’re on a benefit and you can afford to gamble?.”

    Cha, if that’s a threat then I say this ; the gamble dear is worth it, as my children and grand children deserve better from a lost the plot government .

    You socialist leaning communists hide behind the cowardly cloak of anonymity . What twisted, perverted filth you Labour sods are . Are you the duty Minister or just another tax payer funded propaganda creep for a disgusting political party that have brought shame on EVERY kiwi household .

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  42. francis (712 comments) says:

    Since the standard is so clearly a partisan site, isn’t http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?page_id=2 this a breech?

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  43. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    Peter, the prospect of you being arseholed off your benefit by a National led government is almost enough make me vote blue.
    BTW, WTF would you know about paying tax.

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  44. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Look cha, shut your mouth as I have a 15 year old to bring up !!!!!

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  45. francis (712 comments) says:

    lol, sorry, breach (breech is an unintentional pun)

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  46. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    Well get your snout out of the trough get a job ya lazy prick.

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  47. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    “Dear fellow NZder, New Zealand is currently experiencing a wave of strong anti-ideas, pro money dirty capitalists who are adament that elections should be bought.”

    What a twit.

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  48. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    One question cha, would you say those things about me face to face ?

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  49. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    francis – no.

    The Standard is a ‘blog. Assuming they’re not paid to write it, or people don’t pay to read it, then it’s completely exempt.

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  50. john (478 comments) says:

    PDM you are 61yo,im 59 yo and this pathetic leftist ex university (the original base for new labour party ) does raise our collective blood pressures . Hell mr sleep posting from the depths of helens ministerial dept wouldnt remember real workers from the left, i met big Norm and have a book sign by Mr J A Lee that came to me, but the CRAP ie the duck and the rest of the loose cannons ruling us are not the working labour of old but elderly ex uni students living their university fantises, look at clark ,pathetic,never worked,no life experiance,PLEBES DO ALL THE WITCHES THINKING.

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  51. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    No problem Peter.
    You do know what QP means don’t you.

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  52. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Cha, email me dad4justice@gmail.com and I will come and see you, as there is nothing like backing up your venom . It’s your call and please do it .

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  53. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    I followed Francis’s link through to the standard, somewhere that I try to stay away from. However, no wonder they come over here to read and comment, it is the worst case of anger I have read. I did however find their picture of DPF on the march rather amusing, the one of the dusty road.
    Their “attack” links on the left, that is sort of alphabetical even has DPF at the top of the list. Are the scum that run the site all employed by labour? As they certainly take up enough time saying DPF is employed by National. So come forth David, are you? It is my understanding that you are not……
    AND….. their calander doesn’t even line up and they have the fucking date wrong.
    Morons?? You choose.

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  54. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Michaels – go over to kiwikiwiblog or whatever its called and see what they call me . No doubt – all on the liarbore pay roll . I cannot believe this cowardly country run by vindictive and vengeful snakes so desperate for total power control – they have forgotten that most people are far more principled than them. Labour are disgusting in every sense of the word

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  55. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Sorry D4J, can’t today, my trip to the standard was enough for this week. I will put it in my diary and make a visit next week.
    But yes, they are certainly everything you say, no question. (I will put you down for a tick to morons then). ;)

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  56. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Michaels ; one does get the feeling that the 2008 election will supersede all know levels of depravity, as Labour use every dirty trick know to man to win the privileged power control of the country .

    Morons is the understatement of the year . How about the simple word FILTH?
    Sounds better I think . It is rather sad that things have come too this in a once proud country, which is now suffering from blatant political deception and corruption . I used to love this country ,now I can say that I am NOT proud to be a kiwi.

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  57. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    all known levels of depravity, as Labour use every dirty trick known to man

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  58. francis (712 comments) says:

    Graeme – without a statement setting out identities etc, how would the EC know it was an expression of purely personal views on a non-commercial publication?

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  59. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    Well why don’t you FO Peter, I’m sure Australia would welcome you with open arms. Oh, thats right, you wouldn’t qualify for a benefit so I suppose you’ll have to stay home. Oh, another thing Peter, you’d have to lie on your immigration card so best you stay.

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  60. john (478 comments) says:

    Fight the fight ,D4J, be strong ps there could be a run on organic pure New Zealand made bricks , a trend could have started at helens office.Protesters ,protesting the looney left, its like selling coals to new castle.
    they are up shit creek ,what a laugh(DONT VOTE LAIRBOUR)

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  61. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    cha, I am still waiting you to email off line, thank you, so we can talk this out face to face . Come on coward , I am still waiting ? Come on gutless wonder .

    Backstabber’s Incorporated .

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  62. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    francis

    Since the standard is so clearly a partisan site, isn’t http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?page_id=2 this a breech?

    That page is now blank, perhaps the good folk at the standard are starting to actually understand that the EFA makes a difference to their own free speech – finally.

    Excellent – they have had to remove the contents of their “about” page because it breaks the law – unlike a few days ago !

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  63. John Dalley (394 comments) says:

    Dick4J. 1.38pm
    There you go again. When does any government to blame for child abuse.
    May be we should also blame the govt for the dickwad you turned out to be.
    No govt is to blame for child abuse, drunk drivers, pedophiles, etc, etc.
    Your a great example of people not taking resonsiblity for their own actions. It’s idiots like you that would be using the excuse, “the government made me do it” please Mr Judge. it’s wasn’t my fault, no it had to be the government, it can’t have been me sir, i’m not to blame for anything i do or say. (Tui’s moment) “Yeah Right”
    At the best of time you ond others that blame a government for their lot in life are just making excuses for their own indiscipline.
    This country, this world needs more people to take responsiblity for their own cock ups.
    At the best of time your’e a poor excuse for a male, but when you don’t take responsibility and blame “the government” you need to Man up.

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  64. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    John Dalley

    No govt is to blame for child abuse, drunk drivers, pedophiles, etc, etc.

    If this is true then no govt can take credit for reductions in child abuse, drunk drivers, pedophiles etc etc….

    So therefore the flavour of an all care no responsibility govt is immaterial, the people make the difference not the govt…

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  65. john (478 comments) says:

    Mr Farrar i was banned for the similar post like john dalley(ie 100), the usual crap posted as a comment ,whats good for the goose is good for the gander. ps i will get the demerites but mr dalley should have his wrist smacked.Mr D4J has been discribed as a mangy old dog but some rotten old stumps like some abusive posters as above need pissing on. John.
    A doggy owner and lover
    PS abusing a poster as not being a man , is a cheap typical shot, and demerites should be given , its not cricket.

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  66. francis (712 comments) says:

    sorry, burt, should have mentioned that the “about” page has always been blank

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  67. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    John Dalley is 100% correct.

    All D4J goes on about is the awful child abuse statistic.

    How is the govt supppose to control somebody when they go and hurt their children.

    D4J you really need to find something else to get the govt on – for you (With a checkered past) to be going on about the level of child abuse in NZ and how that is the govt’s fault is pathetic.

    Why don’t do get them on something else – maybe the fact that if you don’t go and search for a job they are going to kick you off the dole.

    Another thing to blame the govt for.

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  68. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Why don’t you go and get them on something else – Sorry correction.

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  69. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    James I am not on the dole .
    John Dalley – you will keep for a rainy day .

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  70. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Hypothetically D4J

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  71. john (478 comments) says:

    ps immigrants are now killing their kids(its being a REAL growth industry in the last 8years,hasnt mr sleep,.The damn truth hurts dosnt it, the loopy left , dont care , ,
    more power to D4J against the child abuse deniars . ps so many kids killed so many killers waiting trial BEING PAID BENIFITS on bail, mr sleep

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  72. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Well thats a little rich.

    As we have not seen any immigration policies released by National I look at the policies from the last electio.

    Well nothing much really, besides, how can the leader of his party have strict immigration policy when his own Wife was an import herself.

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  73. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    James are you liarbour party equivalent in New Zealand ? If only darling xxx

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6417.html

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  74. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “when his own Wife was an import herself.”

    This comment is both sordid and racist !!

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  75. john (478 comments) says:

    (TIME TO SAY GOODBYE,) a nice music track THINK piss off labour, . your time is up.
    is the leader in norway doing cross country again , hell of a carbon footprint, all morals and shit , you pay for what i do (im the leader????)

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  76. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    Sleep you reprehensible little runt, you’ve just shown why Labour is on the way down the gurgler with that snide and pathetic comment regarding immigrants as “imports”

    Presumably you have an equally snide view of immigrants like Michael Cullen, Tim Barnett and Mark Burton (all born in England) plus that useless fool Choudhary, who forgive me if I’m not mistaken, doesn’t appear to be from the Waikato.

    You might also like to criticise your Canadian imported party apparatchik Jordan Carter, who is a Canadian.

    Applying little Jimmy’s logic, with all these immigrants running amok in the Labour Party, is it any wonder they are polling so poorly?

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  77. john (478 comments) says:

    Mr sleep have you heard of the saying (pissing in the wind) does it taste salty. you gay old poster you .LOL

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  78. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Sir Zutroy A ; I applaud your comment . I am humbled in your presence Sir .

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  79. john (478 comments) says:

    OPPS sorry mr sleep ,in the oldern days before ms davis rule, you gay old poster meant you happy old poster, Fuck not now

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  80. john (478 comments) says:

    MR Zutroy A, having got off my pork barrel, YOUR POST WAS DAMN GOOD,very good use of words.THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE,

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  81. John Dalley (394 comments) says:

    Burt. I would agree with you, though it is governments responsibility to at least try to educate, help, prosecute, etc, but people do need to take personal resposibility to control their own lives and eductate and stimulate the growth of the children and bring them up to be responsible for their actions, be it drunk driving, speed, drugs, etc.

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  82. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I do not tag the party line on immigration issues.

    I believe that immigration needs toughening up.

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  83. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    Good news Sleep, in a perverse kind of way you are going to get what you want – National is going to throw those aforesaid immigrants out of their jobs this year.

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  84. Chris Diack (741 comments) says:

    Mr Sleep doesn’t know his party history very well – Labour is the party of immigrants

    Harry Holland – Australia
    Michael Joseph Savage – Australia
    Peter Frazer – Scotland
    Walter Nash – England

    It wasn’t until 1963 that Labour elected it’s first New Zealand born leader in Arnold Nordmeyer.

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  85. john (478 comments) says:

    iI checked out kiwibloggblogg ,
    its shitshit, (MUST TRY HARDER)

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  86. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    andymoore – there seemed to be a bit of confusion in the General Debate yesterday. I wholeheartedly support your site – my doubts about the SST I’ve expanded upon in that thread if you care to read it there, so as not to thread jack here (though heaven knows it hasn’t stopped half the people above).

    Anyway, if an offshore address is of any use to you, I’m happy for you to use mine, and my name as authorising anything (provided of course I get to see it first). Let’s see them launch an offshore prosecution… or ask a court in Australia to arrest someone and pack them off for daring to exercise their freedom of speech.

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  87. beautox (422 comments) says:

    So James how old were you when there was a non Labour government? So therefore how the fuck can you possibly know what the fuck you are talking about?

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  88. Chris Diack (741 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom makes the obvious point.

    I cannot understand why such websites don’t simply use a domain name registered overseas with the site itself hosted overseas- thus it isn’t published within New Zealand jurisdiction and not easily amenable to New Zealand law.

    The whole idea that the New Zealand State should try to regulate the internet in this manner is an example of preposterous over-reach.

    DPF is right the law will drive some into political activism that otherwise would have stayed out – it will also distort political behaviour.

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  89. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Liarbour whores always wear blinkers, oblivious to common sense, decency and principles .

    I wonder if PP is using his laptop at the Norwegian ski resort ? Oh the life of Riley eh !! Good on the dumb sheep mentality kiwi taxpayer !!

    She’ll be right mate .

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  90. john (478 comments) says:

    HAD A THOUGHT (scary) help please .i have a fence,facing a bus route,(above the road) aiming straight at traffic.
    if i painted on a billboard ie 6×4 DONT VOTE LABOUR, and with a biro signed it with my name and address, this being 10 feet on my section, facing traffic (WHAT WOULD HAPPEN) would mr plod turn up , i have told the leader of the house my intensions,and she said (go with it) thoughts please ie my rights

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  91. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    John, you would need a consent from your council.

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  92. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    What about Don’t Vote Labour car stickers as I am good for placing 250,000 on cars ? Hehehehe

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  93. john (478 comments) says:

    thanks mate , does that cover any sign , Mr Z Abadolov. (trying passive resistance)

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  94. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Excuse me – I should not refer to immigrants as imports. My apologies.

    I have not yet expressed how strong I believe the imigration system needs to be.

    I never said we should not allow imigration. I believe it needs to be tightened and actually under Labour we have fixed the loop holes.

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  95. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    John – Depends on your council. They usually permit any sign up to a specified size, usually the traditional 2400x1200mm coreflute type sign in an 8 or 12 week period prior to the election. I think they also make allowances for “temporary” signs, to advertise school fairs and scout hall meetings, the sale of your house etc. Otherwise, you’d need a consent.

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  96. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    Sleep or Coma?

    At 6:15pm the little pup said

    “I do not tag the party line on immigration issues.

    I believe that immigration needs toughening up.

    Then one hour later at 7:16pm the confused youngling said:

    “I never said we should not allow imigration. I believe it needs to be tightened and actually under Labour we have fixed the loop holes.

    So then, Sleep washes his hands of Labour on immigration saying Labour hasn’t done a good enough job on toughening up immigration, but then he says they have fixed the loopholes?

    Put it more simply, does Jimmy Coma believe in consistency? Yes, no, maybe or definitely all of the above?

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  97. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “Excuse me – I should not refer to immigrants as imports. My apologies.”

    Fuck off Sleep, as that comment is both malicious and criminal . If you are not banned then to hell with the rules !!

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  98. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    I get banned when I talk about the PM ‘s sham marriage !!

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  99. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    And not just malicious D4J, but seeking to point score by flinging his dung at Je Lan Brash.

    Here’s a question for Jimmy Coma, should those born overseas be allowed to serve as Members of Parliament here in NZ? What about eligibility to vote?

    It would be a perfect example of how immigrants could be sent a message on “toughness”, Sleepy style.

    We await your answer, boy genius.

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  100. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    Labour has fixed the loop holes in immigration? Zaoui and his whole fucken family now sucking on the tit of the taxpayers. And many more like him. The other month I did a prescription for a refugee who had aids, the cost to the NZ taxpayer $5000 for a months supply. Jesus wept.
    Herceptin anyone?

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  101. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    Sorry should be “has aids”.

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  102. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Labour has fixed the loop holes yes. The loopholes in the current system. That does not mean it cannot be tighter. It can be loop hole free in the existing form.

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  103. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    So what would little Jimmy Coma tighten up on?

    The right to vote?

    The right to work?

    The right to choose where to live?

    Prevent AIDS carriers from moving to NZ?

    Maybe we don’t need any foreign gays coming here, what do you think Comaboy?

    Specifics please. Otherwise you just a bigoted xenophobic twit.

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  104. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “the cost to the NZ taxpayer $5000 for a months supply.”

    gee thanks Labour !!!

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  105. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Zutroy – I believe that imigrants coming into New Zealand need to be skilled workers. (With certain exeptions to individual cases)

    But I’m not saying we shut the doors completely on refugees.

    But ensure that we are benefiting from imigration. Not loosing to the extent that New Zealand born citizens are being disadvantaged.

    At the moment I believe that we have far to many refugees coming into the country this in turn will inevitably will weigh our country down. We need to look at where refugees can fit best in our communities and intergrate them into that area.

    So basically we need to put more time into the intergration of refugees into our society.

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  106. john (478 comments) says:

    james get a girl or boy , its not healthy posting all the time, can anyone set young james up with anyone/someone/ anything , its not healthy ,both hands must be getting tired,(posting) get out a bit more james (just worried about you mate ) you are young, the worlds your oyster, chase it for a few monthes.russias nice at the moment

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  107. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    johh (D4J) – And you never stop posting?

    You and D4J are the 2 (1) people/person that posts the most.

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  108. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    What this country needs is more immigrants who are skilled, want to work and build businesses and fewer people, many born here, who complacently believe the world and the NZ taxpayer owe them and their families a living.

    This country is going backwards economically because of the short sighted xenophobic attitudes which so many seem to possess. people will not visit or wish to migrate here when they understand how truly backward so many born in NZ citizens are.

    Population growth is essential as part of any effort to move this country forward. Pandering to Winston and others of his ilk as regards immigration, including the unworldly wise Mr Sleep, is sinking to the lowest common denominator.

    We will not get back all the New Zealanders leaving for Australia and elsewhere, therefore we need to make up and indeed surpass the current position by attracting others here, not just European and North American greenies.

    We need brains, innovation and investment from all corners of the globe.

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  109. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    Here is a quote from an essay written by Dr Anthony Daniels (Theodore Dalyrymple), “Immigrants enrich – have enriched – our culture, but they should do so by addition rather than by subtraction or division”.

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  110. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    D4J, I emailed the whale suggesting they print up 100,000 car window stickers with something along the lines of the billboards, never heard back from him, but I agree. If someone would back it I’m sure they could sell them at a little over cost.
    Fuck off James Sleep, why? Cause I got slapped for your blood, so fuck off.

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  111. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    Ah, fascinating. So now we have a Labour Party operative saying we need to crack down on unskilled workers coming into NZ. Presumably Jimmy Coma believes that this crackdown applies to existing unskilled workers as well as future ones.

    It will be fascinating to see how this message goes down with the voters of Mangere, Mt Roskill and Maungakiekie in South Auckland.

    Yes Mr Somali immigrant, a Labour Party official says you’re not wanted. Best you stay home this election day Mrs Samoan factory worker. Mr Chinese Painter can also stuff off – Young Labour doesn’t want you here.

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  112. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “But I’m not saying we shut the doors completely on refugees.”

    Duty Minister obnoxious Sleeper cell , does that include HIV position Africans ?

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  113. john (478 comments) says:

    sorry james my wife scolded me ,sorry again, you are on your own , i tried to help as a human would but the boss told me not to help you,, im not aloud to matchmake ,

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  114. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    HIV positive Zimbabwean immigrants that the government has lost track of James ?

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  115. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    Regarding refugees NZ takes a small quota compared with some countries. It should not be assumed that refugees are negative.

    The number of refugees atken each year is less than 2000 per annum from memory hardly threatening to the economy nor disadvantageous to the native born.

    Incidently, I see Mr Sleep your racist attitudes coming to the fore in your comment about immigrants and refugees threatening the employment prospects of native born New Zealanders. What a load of tosh!!! However, in my view there are too many native born New Zealanders who would rather take a welfare benefit than work for a living.

    Having worked in many countries Mr Sleep including some where preference is given to ‘natives’ I suggest that you actually get some life experience and knowledge before you post on issues such as this, which you are clearly not equipped to discuss rationally and without resorting to racist and xenophobic blather.

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  116. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    It’s also interesting that Jimmy Coma is suggesting that Labour is causing New Zealand born citizens to be disadvantaged and inevitably weigh us down.

    After all, Labour’s been in power for over 8 years. It’s their fault, according to Master Coma.

    I’d also be keen to know what Jimmy thinks about skilled immigrants being successful and wanting to buy land, say a nice farm in Central Otago. Should they be prevented from buying up land?

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  117. john (478 comments) says:

    D4J is he and i am me(john) , cheers james

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  118. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Enjoy your skiing holiday bitch, as it will be your last care of the kiwi tax payer .

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  119. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    8.11 John :-)

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  120. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I think they can be worked into a refugee program. All I have said is I believe that we need to look into the future at tightening the system to ensure more skilled workers are coming into the country.

    A refugee system I think could be totally different and can work off a certain number that the state believes they can handle.

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  121. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I am not a Labour Party official.

    The views expressed on this page regarding imigration issues are not that of the New Zealand Labour Party but in fact the personal views of James Sleep.

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  122. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “look into the future”

    From a cell I hope !!

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  123. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    By the way, I would suggest that many of the unskilled, may well not be refugees, but are in fact the result of the various arrangements New Zealand has with many of the Pacific Islands, coupled with the fact that despite all the money spent on it the NZ education system is not in many cases producing educated people. Indeed, I think NZ was the first country I worked in where factory owners needed to employ education advisors to bring up the basic literacy level of their employees.

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  124. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    I am not a Labour Party official.

    The views expressed on this page regarding imigration issues are not that of the New Zealand Labour Party but in fact the personal views of James Sleep.

    hahahahahaha!

    So touching to see this naivety from a Labour Party operative. Too late I’m afraid.

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  125. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I do not represent the Labour Party.

    Can I say the same thing about Cameron Slater – look at some of the crap he puts up on his blog. Does he represent the National Party.

    What about DPF – FFS – hes a National Party staffer!

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  126. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    Yet again as so many times before, James sleep raises an issue and when taken to task seeks to obfuscate and take refuge in irrelevant posts and rehashing matters previously endlessly ‘litigated’ on other threads.

    Such an irritating little, nationalistic, xenophobe

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  127. calendar girl (1,236 comments) says:

    Zutroy, Adam Smith, d4j, john, Michaels, Murray M et al:

    Why do you feed him?

    This thread was about a new “Don’t Vote Labour” website. He has now diverted the thread to a debate about immigration and refugees, no doubt an impressive success in the eyes of the Labour Party.

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  128. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    calender girl – we are having a discussion. If you don’t like it PO.

    People – If you allow me to express my own personal opinion and not bring up trivial bullshit re – my membership of the Labour party, we will be fine.

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  129. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    Calendar Girl – we’ve just found out a new reason for people to not vote Labour – they hate foreigners

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  130. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Zutroy – Labour do not hate foreigners – I do not hate foreigner. Pleasse – get your facts right.

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  131. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    Coma, if you want to ram down everyone’s throats your Labour affiliations (on a centre-right preferred blog, no less) why are you whinging about us raising the matter for you?

    I hear around the traps you are a smart kid, so why the thicko charade here on Kiwiblog?

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  132. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    “you hear around the traps?”

    what traps?

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  133. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    James Sleep Watch your manners.
    secondly, if you kept to the subject and didn’t make personal attacks with every comment you make….. then people wouldn’t have such a problem with your opinion.
    Now James… sleep.

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  134. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    Maybe its not a charade after all.

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  135. dave (988 comments) says:

    Exactly!

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  136. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Good point calender girl . I think I have made my point on this thread .

    Can anybody that is not on the liarbour payroll including the jellyfish MSM say they are proud of this disgraceful government ?

    James Sleep helps by interrupting with inane comments .

    DON”T VOTE LABOUR . Do you want to be a tainted voter who endorses corruption within a once proud Nation. History will be harsh on this despicable Klark regime .

    They cannot be allowed to go full term .

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  137. john (478 comments) says:

    Sorry mr sleep for posting ,so much , i would go into depth with my veiws but im only a 2 finger typest/ poster, and D4J must be allowed to have his say, but in between you ,me and D4J, there are many interesting posts from many educated well meaning posters ,but sadly for you Mr Sleep (yawn) the right are on the raise. John

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  138. Whaleoil (767 comments) says:

    James you dip shit, you have already had to apologise to me several times, do want to forever have to apologise to me?

    I am not paid by, and nor do I work any political party. In fact right now several aspects of National leave me cold, not the least being their reluctance to give even one cent to the Free Speech Coalition.

    I have told you offline to do your research before opening you great big trap, I told you that the other night on the Sub-Standard but they have deleted the comments, for what reason, one can only imagine.

    Meanwhile you continue to defame me, now on another blog, what ever happened to the truce we called?…..then you to ask me to out one of my commenters, something I refused to do, since that request you then started to defame me once again on a blog.

    If it is a war you want Jimmy Coma then it is a war you shall have. The problem is I don’t think you can handle it. I believe in controlled escalation with no end until the opposing person is either so badly wasted or they give up to lick their wounds.

    If you were upset at the last effort on photoshop you ain’t seen nothing yet. And Jimmy Coma the real sad thing is that despite my restraint over the past two months you have continued to jab and poke, unfortunately you are about to get a haymaker.

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  139. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Good on ya whale

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  140. john (478 comments) says:

    Mr sleep you have raised the race card havent you,NAUGHTY BOY, thats the barren witches ace when shes pushed into a corner, shit JAMES SLEEP(could be racist) REMEMBER LABOUR HEAD OFFICE (JAMES SLEEP) poster /kiwiblogg,let you down. James its all right you are still a misguided KIWI but we all will still respond to your posts .

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  141. john (478 comments) says:

    Be gentle Whaleoil, he is at the crossroads, DARN WHO CARES (go for the throat)

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  142. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Do another pic and see what happens.

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  143. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Oh John stop it…..
    Wack the fuck out of him with that giant East Auckland Whale Tail.

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  144. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    If it can reach Masterton.

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  145. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Have you not seen his tail?
    The backlash is huge!!

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  146. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    :P

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  147. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    What ever makes you happy Cameron Slater.

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  148. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I told Zach to say hi to you when he catches up for coffee tmrw. ;)

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  149. Phillip R (12 comments) says:

    James… I love your comments.

    You truly are an embarrassment to the left.

    Your smarmy little Git.

    What happened to your last blog ? A little hot in the kitchen ?

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  150. john (478 comments) says:

    MASTERTON ,WHERE MEN ARE MEN AND SHEEP ARE NERVOUS

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  151. Phillip R (12 comments) says:

    I Hope Whale oil gives you a real serve.

    Also, Whale, Saw a bumper sticker with you url on it. Nice one mate.

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  152. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Philip – My comments do not represent the left. They represent myself.

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  153. Mr Nobody NZ (391 comments) says:

    So when you call immigrants and Je Lan Lee Brash in particular as an import it was all you?

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  154. Mr Nobody NZ (391 comments) says:

    Sorry should have read:

    So when you called immigrants and Je Lan Lee Brash in particular an import it was all you?

    I know how particular you are about these things James and would hate to be told to “HTFU” or “PO” or any other phase you might like initialise.

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  155. john (478 comments) says:

    MR Abadolov, your words(i hear around the traps that you are a smart kid etc) mr sleep???? shock horror, big scare, is this guy being groomed for leadership, in the lairbour party, gag ,i feel sick. In what circles is mr sleep being groomed into, a replacement for the witch , the treasury,what, (a reason so no more will depart to aussie) must read posts more closely

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  156. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Oh boy you have dug yourself a fine pit here haven’t you.

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  157. Phillip R (12 comments) says:

    Back on topic. Nice work to the guys who have put together the website.

    Im glad to see so many here people actually understand the EFB.

    I am still worried about the amount of people that simply don’t know/care about what this bill means for NZ. I guess that’s what Labour wants. Idiots as citizens.

    Never mind. If labour gets another round, we’ll loose more of our top workers & business people to Aus.

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  158. Grant (444 comments) says:

    I’m with calendar girl on this one.
    Just ignore the little twerp. Remember the old expression, “children should be seen and not heard” and apply it to little Jimmy and all will be well.
    It might be different if he had some interesting opinions or amused us all with his sparkling wit and saucy bandinage, but he appears less able than the average 16 year old to do either of these, and I’ve now reached the point where I don’t even read any thread where his name appears in bold type more than once.
    Back on track, It’ll be interesting to see what reaction, if any, websites like this produce from the government. My view is that this reaction from the blogosphere wont have been predicted and consequently there’ll be no procedure in place for responding to it. However, when they do try and take some sort of action, it will be the usual ham fisted, over the top type of response we’ve become used to in this country, and nothing of any consequence will result.
    G

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  159. infused (654 comments) says:

    James Sleep, you’re such a yawn. Scared now are you?

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  160. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Grant

    People do react in funny ways, we muse at one instance blatantly flouting the law, if that one instance is chopped down it will often be replaced by 10 more, and so on.

    Labour can only loose drawing attention to this, it highlights all the facts they were trying to quietly sweep under the rug with the large population of people who have little idea what has actually happened with the EFA.

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  161. democracymum (648 comments) says:

    The website already has an ip address – surely that can be published udner authorisation

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  162. Grant (444 comments) says:

    Burt. Agree.
    G

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  163. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Oh no I’m not scared. Cam will have something coming his way. Lets say I have made plans. :P

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  164. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    A troll is a troll is a troll. Whether it is cuddly and cute or nasty and wizened, its sole purpose is to clog up the debate with irrellevancies. God you lot are so easily suckered into discussing bullshi*t, just because you underestimate the credibility of the troll involved. talk about playing with your balls while Rome burns….

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  165. redbus (106 comments) says:

    Oh please, Lee. Any one of us wretches who bother to opine a comment on a blog are trolls by somebody elses standard. You’re totally going off the ball with what, by my standard, you have nicely called an ‘irrelevant clog’.

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  166. Buggerlugs (1,592 comments) says:

    James Sleep Says:
    January 2nd, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    I am not a Labour Party official.

    Why then Sleep, you poorly educated ill-tempered twit, at 7.16pm had you typed I believe it needs to be tightened and actually under Labour we have fixed the loop holes.?

    Is that the royal we? For Christ’s sake at least try to keep up with your lies.

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  167. freethinker (691 comments) says:

    Just visited TBR and it occurred to me that comparing biblical quotes with the minority labour led govt could be a novel way of drawing attention to the ugly comparisons, wonder if her ugliness would want to pick a religous based fight using the EFB!!

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  168. JamesBLUNT (5 comments) says:

    OMFG dad4justice and john both posted at the same time, so despite the fact that they post one after the other they must be two separate fucking people.

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  169. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    My name is JamesBlunt and I am a silly little runt.

    Well done, you have finally worked out Miss Doh brain lunkhead turnip swatter that John and I are in fact, two separate identities. Hooray, as I’ve only tried to point this fact out since November 2006. Anyway isn’t it marvelous that the penny has finally dropped into that confused and complicated world of the distorted and deranged leftie mindset. Most people link thoughts by neuron transmitters, however the leftie twits struggle with anything that is truthful because they have been trained in the art of bullshit and crapaloa.

    JamesBluntSleeper cell the preposterous plebeian with a turnip brain is being hailed as the epitome of the new androgynous man, where as in reality, he is a tragedy waiting to happen and does himself no favours by spreading his camphylobacter infected frothing’s all over the Internet.

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  170. john (478 comments) says:

    But then are we two, seperate people, there will always the doubt,in the mind of a leftest poster. Hi D4J ,John here, did you listern to Mike Moore on Newstalk zb. He said its our right to taunt the useless fuckers in power and the halfwits who support them , so a new year , and a exciting new sport,from John not D4J

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  171. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Better than that John . Mike Moore is quoted in todays CH CH Press in an article titled “EX -PM slams Election Finance Act ” or to put it his wise words ;
    ” It was rushed,badly drafted ,can’t be understood….it’s a bloggers breakfast .”

    Well done Mike . Look New Zealand Helen Klark must be removed from office now . Not November, but now , today this month ? She is as mad as a snake and has made our Nation the laughing stock of the world .

    Is everybody that scared of her ? Give me two minutes with the sly creature , John Key show some mettle you …….

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  172. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Just to take this one step further – my “bloggers breakfast” leaves a distinct taste of political bad taste corruption in my mouth . You may see me as far too harsh on Helen,but think about this for a second . Her delinquent government passes corrupt legislation over the Christmas season and she does her usual bolt gallivanting on the slopes on the other side of the world ? Why worry eh Helen and Heather, move on, nothing to see here . You cannot defend this Helen as Mike Moore is man whom I respect dearly . In fact if he stood as part of the new Labour, I’d probably vote for him as National have shown the voter that they’re just a wet bus ticket !!

    As I have already said, she relies on the ‘she’ll be right ‘ attitude of kiwi’s as she has built a platform that has her made her God in a country of citizens who are to frightened to dispute her awesome power. All except bloggers eh? For how long remains the million dollar question eh ?

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  173. Chicken Little (741 comments) says:

    What I would like to know is –

    As blogs such as KBB or The Standard are anon blogs, how do we know they are not being paid to publish?

    Should we just take their word for it?

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  174. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    WTF – I just got prank called. Somebody with an accent claiming to be D4J.

    They said “Hi Jamie, this is D4J your mate”

    I was sleeping (Like you do) so couldn’t think straight. I finally clicked and was about to say Heh, and you think your funny, before the pussy car hang up.

    Dam

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  175. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    before the pussy CAT hang up. – Correction.

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  176. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “As blogs such as KBB or The Standard are anon blogs, how do we know they are not being paid to publish?”

    I will bet a million bucks that they are being paid to spread venom Chicken Little .Tax payers money well spent says Heather !

    Look Mr chicken heart Sleep ; I would never ring you – even if you offered me legal possession all the houses that Helen Clark owns !! Is she a millionaire ?

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  177. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    D4J – Did I say you did, no.

    I said somebody claiming to be ‘your mate, D4J’.

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  178. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Shut up James and go to the beach or something . Look mate just stop and think for a minute . I have no wish to harm you in anyway. Go and enjoy yourself as a normal teenager does and leave the politics’s to the grown ups.
    Kind regards mate – do yourself a big favour mate .

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  179. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James

    You seem a little upset about this Don’t vote Labour thing. Is the idea that people are allowed to have free speech so upsetting that you need to fight against it with all of your energy?

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  180. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Nope, it is good to see people voicing their opinions.

    I might not agree with them, but it’s refreshing to see that people can take the apathetic hat off and voice their views.

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  181. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I think it’s quite amusing actually.

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  182. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James

    burt – dipshit, remember what Labour have done fo you and this country.

    DON’T VOTE NATIONAL

    Big turn around James – or just saying what you think is the right thing to say again?

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  183. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I never said I don’t cotinue to hold those beliefs. You floated a comment that asked for an explanation.

    “You seem a little upset about this Don’t vote Labour thing. Is the idea that people are allowed to have free speech so upsetting that you need to fight against it with all of your energy?”

    So your saying I shouldn’t be allowed free speech?

    Or your somewhat upset that yes I am fine with free speech but I do continue to post my own views.

    Isn’t that what free speech is about?!?

    I ask you the question – Are you anti-free speech.

    Maybe pro free speech for right wingers and anti it for the left.

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  184. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Make your mind up.

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  185. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    That is one of the most silly things I have seen you post. Almost every single person commenting on this thread is anti the EFA – you seem to think that because it was drafted by Labour it’s automatically pure and full of good intent. Wake up James – Labour may be the party your mummy and daddy support – you are free to make your own conclusions.

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  186. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    burt – My parents do not support Labour

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  187. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Thought you had posted about you proud family union heritage before, perhaps I was wrong assuming that made them Labour supports. I guess the way that Labour taxes low paid workers and pays benefits to rich people it’s to be expected that union supporters are turning off Labour.

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  188. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Who said my parents were union supporters?

    You are assuming.

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  189. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Can test tube parents join the Union ?

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  190. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    James Sleep…. if your parents are so wise, what happened to you?
    adopted?
    refugee perhaps??
    as D4J says, test tube?
    or perhaps a test tube experiment that went oh so horribly wrong?

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  191. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    I think you might acted against the intent of the EFA (which apparently you support – possibly for no other reason than it was passed by Labour) when you said “DON’T VOTE NATIONAL”.

    How good is that law you support when you potentially break it by publishing your views here in this blog. You have used your name but you have not provided a residential address. You had better do that before some major Labour supporter full of integrity reports you… Guess it’s not going to happen – integrity and support for Labour can not coexist.

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  192. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Burt if you read the law – Blogs are exempt (Non commercial ones)

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  193. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Laboratory experiments have been known to go horribly wrong in the past .

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  194. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James

    This blog has advertising on it – did you miss that this possibly makes it commercial? See you in court standing up for your right to free speech!

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  195. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    According to David this blog is alright.

    I asked him about it.

    Can you confirm this, David. That me saying vote National on this blog is not breaking the law?

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  196. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Just the fact that you need to ask the blog owner (who is not a Lawyer) shows how completely stupid the EFA is. Can you at least admit that the moment you need to clarify if you are allowed to voice your own opinions that your free speech has already been restricted?

    Why should DPF pay for an opinion to ensure that you are not breaking a law when you want to simply state your opinion “Don’t vote for [x]” ?

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  197. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    James – I’ll confirm it.

    Want to say it? :-)

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  198. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Graeme

    Do you have a contact email that you can publish so that people like myself can check with you each and every forum that I might want to state my views in/on.

    I’m not a Lawyer so it’s hard for me to know if I’m breaking the law when I say “Don’t vote Labour”. Is it breaking the law if I say it to some mates at the pub ? Is it breaking the law if I post it on Colin Espiner’s blog over on “stuff” ?

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  199. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Can you at least admit that the moment you need to clarify if you are allowed to voice your own opinions that your free speech has already been restricted?

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  200. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Burt – you don’t have to be a lawyer for it to not be hard to know what the EFA means – I’ve had lawyers ask me.

    Mates at a pub – fine. Colin Espiner’s ‘blog – fine.

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  201. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Graeme

    How about a large sign on my back while riding my bicycle to work each day?

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  202. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Graeme,

    burt has a valid point, as you have been described on this blog before as the legal genius of the Labour regime . Can we have a email address please ? I often post on stuff – will I be breaking the law ?

    I have at least a dozen lawyers who would like some clarification on various matters concerning this EFA ?

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  203. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Burt – no

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  204. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    burt – the bike sign will need a name and residential address.

    d4j – I don’t think I’ve ever been described as that.

    Posting on Stuff will be absolutely fine.

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  205. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    You seem to be contradicting yourself again.

    According to David this blog is alright.

    I asked him about it.

    Can you confirm this, David….

    Then when I say… Can you at least admit that the moment you need to clarify if you are allowed to voice your own opinions that your free speech has already been restricted?

    You say NO. Just to clarify – you checked with DPF to see what you were and were not allowed to say on his blog (which opinions it is legal to express), you then went on to seek further clarification and then you say that there is no restriction. Labour good – National bad – you are very immature for a 16 year old.

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  206. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Graeme

    The sign will not have a name and address… I’ll take the hit ! If I can’t strap a message to myself (which costs nothing in real terms – cardboard and a marker pen) then I’ll happily go to prison for breaking such a stupid law.

    Thanks for your help on this matter.

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  207. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    burt – prison isn’t a possibility for that offence – it only carries a fine.

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  208. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Graeme

    If I refuse to pay the fine long enough….

    Cheers for the free advice. I can almost fool myself that speech is still free while I can get free advice on what I am allowed to say and what I’m not allowed to say :-)

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  209. IdiotSavant (88 comments) says:

    DPF: <i>I think they are planning to have an authorisation statement as they asked me what it needs to be. But as the site is public without it, they are in breach.</i>

    And that’s the only way it is in breach (and it would have been in breach of the old law too).

    As an amateur website, there’s no way it will reach the $12,000 threshold required for registration. Contrary to all your FUD and outraged squealing, the EFA doesn’t actually restrict ordinary citizens from speaking their minds any more than the old law did.

    [DPF: It would not have been in breach of the old law. A personal website saying "Don't vote Labour" was not included under the definition of an electoral advertisement under the Electoral Act. I have provided numerous references to this

    As someone who blogs anonymously, I would have thought you would be against a law which forces people posting their views for or against a party on the Internet, from revealing their name and address unless they do it on a blog or media website.]

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  210. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    DPF:

    Saw this over at blogblog. Your thoughts?

    <blockquote> nothereanymore Says:

    January 2, 2008 at 5:18 pm
    I see Davey is surprised there is a new anti-Labour website

    “So with that I note some people have set up a website called Don’t Vote Labour. It is clearly an illegal election advertisement under the Electoral Finance Act as it advocates against a party, and does not have a name and address of its promoter on the site.

    Incidentally I’ve had nothing to do with the site (as in first I knew about it was an e-mail), but one of the creators has asked me to do a short summary of the EFA for the site, which I have provided to them.”

    I don’t suppose he knows this person:

    domain_name: dontvotelabour.org.nz
    domain_dateregistered: 2007-12-31T16:29:14+13:00
    registrant_contact_name: Cameron Slater
    registrant_contact_address1: 29 Glenfern Road
    registrant_contact_address2: Howick
    registrant_contact_city: Auckland
    registrant_contact_postalcode: 1705
    registrant_contact_country: nz
    registrant_contact_phone: +64 9 5357055
    registrant_contact_email: camslater@gmail.com</blockquote>

    http://kiwiblogblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/01/contriving-martyrdom/#comments

    As far as I know Andy Moore is responsible for the site. He has presumably worked with Cameron on it. The first I knew about it was when Andy e-mailed me about it a couple of days ago, as I said.

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  211. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Graeme

    I think I have a valid defense.

    There were others doing it and the law is confusing!

    It worked for Labour with the 2005 spending debacle !

    Either that or I’ll say I’m pretty thick and it’s a que card for me when I’m talking to my mates :-)

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  212. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Burt:

    Technically you would be in breach of the law, but for you to be prosecuted two very unlikely things would need to happen.

    1) Someone would have to get your name and lay a complaint against you with the electoral commission

    2) The electoral commission would have to decide that it is a “significant” enough breach of the law for a prosecution to be “in the public interest”.

    So go ahead with your little stunt, it’s all good bro. BTW can you get someone to take a picture of you on your bike with a big amateurish sign and send it to me. You know, good for a laugh and all.

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  213. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    And that’s the only way it is in breach (and it would have been in breach of the old law too).

    It would not have been. The provisions of the Electoral Act relating to names and addresses only applied to advertisements (not “any form of words or graphics”), and only applied when those advertisements were published in a newspaper, periodical, poster, or handbill, or were broadcast on radio or television.

    Contrary to all your FUD and outraged squealing, the EFA doesn’t actually restrict ordinary citizens from speaking their minds any more than the old law did.

    The major argument of the regulation in general (i.e. ignoring the specifics which changed) was over the chilling effect – perfectly demonstrated with statements like this “Dad was not too happy when he saw our family’s address there. So I need someone else’s home address for the site. Who’s game…” The suggestion that there will be no-one who is reluctant or scared to do what Andy has done because of the new law seems unlikely at best.

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  214. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Graeme Edgeler

    You’re being disingenuous – the breeches have to be “significant” in order to warrant prosecution. This means that only people spending significant resources will be effected – and I don’t see any problem with them being up-front with the public about their campaign.

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  215. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “You’re being disingenuous ”

    Truly hilarious comment from a gnome of little credibility !!

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  216. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    D4J how’s it all going bro? As I undestand it the holliday season can be a time of significant strees for families, and rates of domestic violence can get out of hand.

    Anyway, how did the hollidays go for you dad?

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  217. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Keep to the topic you insipid coward !!

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  218. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Not a good one I take it then D4J? Is that why you spent the whole holliday period on the internet? Sad dad, just sad.

    Anyway, happy new year dad. I sincerely hope that 08 goes better for you than 07 did.

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  219. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    No roger I have had a wonderful time and I can assure you I will be more than rewarded for my effort on the internet . Good things come to those who have patience . Did I tell you that C press will have 9000 don’t vote Labour stickers ready soon . My design and NO name on them . I will do a wee carpet bomb mission, just like I did with the Father Friendly Zone stickers . I hope to put them on every CH CH letterbox just to remind voters . You can put some up around Dunedin if you like . How was the stay at the Mason clinic gnomer pile?

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  220. IdiotSavant (88 comments) says:

    Graeme: the old law talked about “advertisements” – and the site very clearly is one. It may in fact have fallen through the cracks in the old law, but I hardly think its any great imposition for the law to keep pace with technology. Discourse and advertising have shifted to the web, and the law should follow.

    As for the “chilling effect”, this has always been present, and I humbly suggest it would be a lot less if people like DPF had not worked so hard to spread FUD and whip up hysteria over the law.

    [DPF: You're talking nonsense. How can you continue to blog anonymously while advocating that people who use a different technology (non blog software) should not be allowed to be anonymous. Setting up a website is not the same as traditional advertising. Traditional advertising works on a push model - you get it forced on you when listening to radio or TV, or reading a newspaper or clearing your letterbox. A static website only gets viewed by those who make a conscious choice to seek it out. That is not like a traditional advertisement.

    You are the one who have misrepresented the law, so accusing me of FUD means you should look in a mirror.]

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  221. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    How come we CAN’T comment on your blog IdiotS ???

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  222. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Can the person that prank called me this morning call me back?

    Thanks

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  223. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    Graeme Edgeler

    How about if I had a sign on my back while riding my bicycle that said:

    “I don’t vote Labour” – Due to my poor artistic skills the “I” might not be obvious till you are very close to the message…

    Is it illegal now with the draconian EFA to have a sign that states how I vote?

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  224. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Sorry to hear you are so lonely that you want a call even if it’s from a prank caller. Perhaps if you pass out your number and a few more people might call you.

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  225. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    “You’re being disingenuous – the breeches have to be “significant” in order to warrant prosecution”

    This is where common sense applies ;)

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  226. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    IdiotSavant

    D4J makes a valid point. Not allowing comments on your blog makes it an advertisement. It’s a static message with no feedback mechanism as apposed to a blog where a reader is welcome to take any of the often many and contradictory positions stated on a particular thread. Many positions are only possible if comments are allowed.

    So you continue to advertise anonymously while saying it’s always been against the law, ergo you have been knowingly breaking the law all along.

    And you expect people to think you are credible?

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  227. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    HAHA – No no I was interested in talking to them. Whether it be about politics in general or their obsession with me.

    I actually like socializing with people and talking politics in general over the phone. It’s great.

    I’m interested why people do prank call me though – a little weird.

    They said they were D4J, but I am not sure if D4J has an accent.

    I wouldn’t mind chatting to D4J over the phone if he was to be sensible. :)

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  228. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    The whole “common sense” thing is a laugh isn’t it. For MP’s to even suggest that the law of common sense will override the laws as they have written and passed it treats the public sick some thick bunch of morons.

    Common sense & mob hysteria are only separated by the degree of rational behaviour involved. Rational behaviour… like passing partisan electoral finance laws against the swing of public opinion.

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  229. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Sorry I buggered that sentence above up. It should have been.

    For MP’s to even suggest that the law of common sense will override the laws as they have written and passed treats the public like some thick bunch of morons.

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  230. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Well I actually agree with you to some extent.

    I do believe that ‘Common sense’ is so general and really was the wrong term to use.

    “like passing partisan electoral finance laws against the swing of public opinion.”

    I have talked to many people from all walks of life about the EFB. Most people I have spoken to agree that a level playing field is essential in regard to the financing of election campaigns.

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  231. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “I wouldn’t mind chatting to D4J over the phone if he was to be sensible.”

    Sorry Jimmy, but I will have a more intelligent conversation with a concrete lamppost thank you dimwit twitter ~!!

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  232. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Like yourself, I have talked to many people from all walks of life about the EFB. Most people I have spoken to agree that a level playing field is essential in regard to the financing of election campaigns.

    I’ll also add this last bit. Most people I have spoken to either have no idea what the EFB is about or they are dead against it because it fails substantially to create a level playing field.

    See: http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/?q=node/5552

    There is no need for you and I to argue of WhaleOils opinion because Tremain’s cartoon captures it brilliantly.

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  233. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    The problem is burt, people of the likes of David Farrar, Cameron Slater, Mike Moore, Andy Moore, and John Boscowen have put a sick spin on this law.

    I believe that Roger Nome hit the nail on the head by saying:

    “the breeches have to be “significant” in order to warrant prosecution. This means that only people spending significant resources will be effected – and I don’t see any problem with them being up-front with the public about their campaign.”

    Breaches to the electoral act have to be significant.

    So I don’t swallow all this rubbish about how a normal New Zealander telling somebody not to vote Labour or handing out a couple of pamphlets will be prosecuted.

    Its absolute garbage, David knows that, Cameron knows that, Andy knows that, John knows that, Mike knows that.

    They have a different issue that they don’t talk about.

    Its the fact that they won’t be able to spend as much as they like when they like (JB= Millions) on buying a positive election result!

    They don’t talk about the big dollar donors like JB who are the ones that effect election results with their money and aim to do exactly that.

    They just talk about the average Kiwi.

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  234. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    D4J – Be civil bro.

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  235. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    They don’t talk about the big dollar donors like JB who are the ones that AFFECT election results with their money and aim to do exactly that.

    Sorry – correction

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  236. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    The problem is that people of the likes of David Farrar, Cameron Slater, Mike Moore, Andy Moore, and John Boscowen were forced to react this way due to such a low level of public consultation during the drafting and passing of such important laws.

    Horse before cart stuff James. A man falling off a cliff could well say that he’s fine till he hits the bottom, but really he’s fucked from the moment he starts falling.

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  237. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “I believe that Roger Nome hit the nail on the head”

    That should have read I believe roger gnomer has a nail in his head .

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  238. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    You cannot honestly say that the likes of JB can effect the election results with money after Labour said their $800K overspend made no difference to the election outcome? Or are you saying that one man has more ability to market an idea than the entire Labour party?

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  239. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    So burt it gives them the right to put a spin on things?

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  240. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    “I believe that Roger Nome hit the nail on the head”

    “the breeches have to be “significant” in order to warrant prosecution.

    So is one person with a “Don’t vote Labour” bumper sticker significant? Is 2, is 200,000 – how about a million?

    Great laws that require the application of common sense…. Can see them working well – NOT!

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  241. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Yes he does because he has the money to do so and the more money he has the more he can propagate that idea.

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  242. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    Define the spin. How are they spinning it? Lets go through each of your talking points and see how what you see as spin is what others see as real.

    Or are we wasting our time debating it because only Labour are allowed to put a spin on it?

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  243. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Hey I will come on here at 6.30pm and work through my talking points, ok.

    I really want to debate this but something has just come up.

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  244. Oscars Grouchy Mum (83 comments) says:

    “So I don’t swallow all this rubbish about how a normal New Zealander telling somebody not to vote Labour or handing out a couple of pamphlets will be prosecuted.”

    The EB could argue that they handed out a few pamphlets, and look where that got them – and us. I think this answers the later point made by Burt – 2 pamphlets are fine, a million will have the government changing laws for you.

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  245. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Well OGM – It depends how much it costs to hand out 1million pamphlets.

    I believe in the cap system which is exactly what the EFA delivers.

    Because the more your produce the more influence you have on somebody making their mind up about who they will vote for.

    Studies have shown that the more a name gets propagated the more support that person will get.

    So the more money you have – the more pamphlets you can produce – the more support you will receive.

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  246. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James Sleep

    So producing about a million plastic credit card sized advertising devices using stolen money had no effect on the outcome of the election ?

    Apparently the more you produce the influence you have…..

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  247. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    They were not plastic – btw.

    Yes it does, but along with the Exclisive Brethren campaign which was worth something like 1.2 Mil.

    And along with the amount that National over spent. Not to mention the tax they evaded.

    Its about principle.

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  248. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    I must give you credit James – you certainty hang in or is it a tag team with somebody ? Family perhaps or partner ? Just a thought no offence as I have had my face scratched before by a demented thing years back .

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  249. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Thank you d4j

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  250. Nick C (336 comments) says:

    “Its about principle.”

    Yes, the principal that Labour must get elected at all costs, that the end of socialism justifies means such as writing electoral law to favour one party over another and shuting down free speech. Also stealing taxpayer money and then subsequently making it legal is ok as well.

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  251. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James

    The pledge cards were plastic. Or did Labour go the whole hog rorting the tax payers and produce Teflon pledge cards.

    And along with the amount National overspent….. so f-ing-what if National did it too… That’s not a valid excuse for Labour overspending to gain additional votes in the election. Studies have shown that the more a name gets propagated the more support that person will get.

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  252. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I never said it was an excuse I’m stating you should clean up your own backyard before you focus on the neighbours!

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  253. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    James

    National should have been prosecuted, as Labour should have been. Better to clean up all backs yards than none.

    OK, so we’ve established that there was more than one party doing it *. Now, what should have been done?

    a) prosecute all that were caught – restoring confidence in parliament.
    b) let them all off and let them change the laws so they can do it * again – legally.

    * Remember what they did, according to the studies you mention, is distort the electoral outcome.

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  254. Nick C (336 comments) says:

    “I never said it was an excuse I’m stating you should clean up your own backyard before you focus on the neighbours!”

    Same to you buddy, yet you have never critisized H1 or H2 for their actions. Or is it “do as I say, not as I do” month?

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  255. Oscars Grouchy Mum (83 comments) says:

    Someone correct me, but I thought the EB went to the EC to check that they were within the law before distributing their pamphlets.

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  256. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Well actually, didn’t Labour go to the EC to check that their spending was legal?

    [DPF: On the contrary the Chief Electoral Officer told them three times the pledge card was an election expense, and they ignored him, plus they lied to him]

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  257. Nick C (336 comments) says:

    “Well actually, didn’t Labour go to the EC to check that their spending was legal?”

    If the spending was legal then how come they needed to pass retrospective legislation?

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  258. john (478 comments) says:

    Ahh the pledge card with that bleached white air brushed image some pathetic dreamer with photoshop produced that is supposed to be the leader?? (IN HER DREAMS) like everything this govt does, using smoke and mirrors, and buckets of stolen horse shit. John

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  259. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    DPF – were you the National party campaign manager at the last election?

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  260. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    What involvement did you have with the National party at the last election?

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  261. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    James, could you stop your littany of lies and irrelevancies and come up with some hard facts to backup your assertions?

    Your behaviour in this blog leaves a lot to be desired and you’ve done very little towards a sensible debate. Which raises the question: are you paid to troll this blog and annoy the hell of others, who are prepared to discuss the issues rather than simply interject and mumble inane slogans?

    With apologies to my fellow bloggers: James, pull yourself together, otherwise get the hell out of here.

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  262. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    James, you really are a clueless child. A momentary search of this site would tell you that DPF was looking after the Wellington Central campaign for Mark Blumsky.

    And pray tell why are you changing the subject when you have been caught out on
    Labour’s pledge card so easily above? Don’t you have something to say for yourself?

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  263. boomtownprat (281 comments) says:

    Here is an idea…………….lets ignore and not respond to anything young master sleep has to say?

    Maybe then, like that occasional annoying puppy that follows you home form the shops…..he will just simply fuck off!

    Seriously….JUST SAY NO!

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  264. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    I agree lets make this a Sleep Free Zone, just avoid the critter like you would a bed bug .

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  265. kehua (225 comments) says:

    James Sleep: 31 hours of one hand on your keyboard and the other on your dick, you really should stop making love to yourself. And little fella watch out or the Whale, I think he might be a bit pissed off.

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  266. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Excuse me I have been debating this with burt.

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  267. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    you are all off topic. For godness sakes. Hypocrits!

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  268. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    boomtownprat

    Can you hear squeaking, sort of like whimpering – I’m beaten, I’m beaten…

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  269. boomtownprat (281 comments) says:

    burt,

    it’s more like a ……..woof, wimper, woof (fade…………)

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  270. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Fart oh go to sleep

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  271. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    boomtownprat

    It said it was debating with me but had made 5 comments since my last post without a single reference to what we were debating….

    The boy is a tard.

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  272. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    Don’t worry guys. I’ll get my own back.

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  273. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    James usually debates with mannequins .

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  274. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    D4J – remember, do not call me tmrw at 6am ok. Good dog

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  275. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    boomtownprat and burt – can you hear a faint whisper from a naughty thing?

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  276. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I know what I’ll send you for your xmas pressie nxt year D4J – Paper overalls!

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  277. boomtownprat (281 comments) says:

    Excellent, normal service resumed

    Back to the website.

    Great idea. Join the group on facebook. (Must join the NZ network first)

    If it’s legal or not is not the issue. The issue is this issue will continue well beyond the beltway (arrogant Clarkist paraphrasing acknowledeged).

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  278. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Facebook, myspace, bebo join em all and spread the word . I have linked thousands of fathers groups around the globe, so all the kiwi voters overseas know about the corrupt regime in NZ .

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  279. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    D4J – Memories ay, memories. Paper overalls to bring back memories.

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  280. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    Back to the issue at hand – why would the state even bother to try and regulate content on the internet? If website content gets too shrill it becomes counter-productive and ends up helping those the site were advocating against.

    I just think of James Sleep’s blogging attempts, and wonder at how freespeech made Sleep become unhelpful to Labour as his poorly thought out frothing posts made him (and his party) look stupid.

    And in the end, freedom of speech is its own punishment as it is its own reward. The Brethrens tried to tip out Labour and the Greens. But in the end, the media coverage turned the Brethren pamphlets into an own goal and probably helped Labour (while causing suspicion and revulsion towards the EBs).

    One wonders how things might have turned out had the EBs been upfront about their intentions and called a press conference to launch their pamphlet, saying they have had a gutsful of Labour and want to tell people to vote against them. I suspect most of the subsequent drama wouldn’t have occurred.

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  281. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I do not represent the Labour Party

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  282. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Good point Zutroy the EB came unstuck because they were secretive about their good intentions. I say, too hell to the wind and be upfront and in the face of this corrupt liarbour regime of demented socialist parasitic twisters !!

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  283. Zutroy Abadolov (80 comments) says:

    But again, if the Exclusive Brethren are the problem, then why make changes to what is legal election activity on the internet? The Brethren aren’t even allowed to use the internet according to their own teachings, so there’s only one logical reason why Labour sought to do this – their bill was about shifting the rules in their favour as incumbents.

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  284. boomtownprat (281 comments) says:

    Zutroy,

    bingo

    “so there’s only one logical reason why Labour sought to do this – their bill was about shifting the rules in their favour as incumbents.”

    I personally find it disturbing that even the most rabid labourites don’t register this.

    When something so shallow and self serving hasd been pushed through the NZ legislative process, you are morally obliged to ask why. The answer I believe is the biggest irony of all. It’s not the EB………..it’s the Labour Party bank balance!

    They are broke and need your money now and for your money to go to no one else but them.

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  285. burt (8,272 comments) says:

    I kind of expect the EB to have the last laugh in this one. Investigate magazine has been very quiet for a long time, waiting their time for the election lead up I expect. It’s just a hunch I have, no foundation other than nobody likes being denigrated from such a high level by such a crooked and exposed bunch of poodles.

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  286. boomtownprat (281 comments) says:

    Thats right.

    I imagine the saying…..”hell hath no fury fury like a rich breth scorned”

    may have some relevance soon. I imagine the constant stream of small value donations to the Nats and ACT will really trouble the respctive treasurers soon!

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  287. Grant (444 comments) says:

    Anyone know where one could find membership stats for the various parties? The labour party website doesn’t appear to have any such info, but it would be interesting to know what the actual membership numbers are right now compared to, say, five years ago.
    G

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  288. go NZ (59 comments) says:

    All very interesting,boomtown and co.What upsets aunty Hell-in is that she cant control the EB ,who are a tiny minority but because of sheer outrage at her grotty social policies and anti-Americanism did their best to alert fellow NZers to where we are headed if HCs agenda isnt disrupted.
    Have a look at the pamplets they did in 2004/5 and see the ISSUES ARE STILL VALID and debate them instead of the EB for a change.
    The fact is, the EB pamplets have resulted in a fatal over-reaction by the paranoid comrades in the beehive in dreaming up the EFB.
    “never was so fewer people,printing so many pamplets owed so much by so many”
    Have a think about that O Sleep and co

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  289. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    The truth hurts these cowardly, secretive, spineless, socialist – pc poodles that make up this deplorable liarbour gummint .

    Huckleberry Hound dog wouldn’t even piss on their fish and chips !!

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