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April 25, 2008 10:38am by David Farrar

New Speed Campaign

A copy of the new anti-speeding advertisement from the Ministry of Transport

Hat Tip: Stephen Franks

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Rex Widerstrom

the deity formerly known as nigel6888 says:

thanks once again phillipjohn for illustrating the sad, dark,lonely little world that you inhabit.

Sad, yes. Dark, undoubtedly. But lonely? Hardly.

There are many who share the perspective roger has elucidated here. Sadly, society seems to a sort of perpetual motion pendulum on moral issues. Instead of swinging from one extreme to the other, slowly losing energy and arriving at a sensible, moderate mid point it swings from one extreme to the other and then further back in the opposite direction.

So we’ve gone from a totally unacceptable culture where women were expected to be comfortable with objectification and unwanted harrasment in the workplace to one where, if I politely enquire whether the pretty new receptionist would like to have a drink I’m not simply making a fumbling (and usually unsuccessful *sigh*) attempt to ask a woman out, but am exploiting the patriarchal power imbalance (or some such nonsense) and potentially leaving myself open to a lawsuit.

But the argument that extremism is the only antidote to extremism is one that’s increasingly heard from both sides of politics these days, and is one of the reasons why sensible people with moderate, workable solutions to our country’s problems can’t be bothered with public life – they just get frothed at from all sides.
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April 25, 2008 6:46pm
roger nome

““[a]round 20% of NZ female adults have been subjected to rape”.”

Needless to say I’ll take the word of a professional who works in the area over yours POC
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April 25, 2008 6:46pm
PaulL

Roger, how about we summarise then.
1. You took us off track to rape
2. You claimed that the video of the women with the nice breasts was contributing to a culture of rape
3. I (we) called you out on that, pointing our reasons why that wasn’t so
4. You claimed that 20% of NZ women have been raped, but provided no source
5. I called you on that, and said that many of those studies use dubious definitions of rape, and asked for a source
5. Instead of providing a source, you provided a link to educate us on what rape was
6. Helmet read it, and said the definition was dubious
7. You said it wasn’t, misquoted it and misquoted the NZ law in support of your argument
8. You mislead and obfuscated instead of saying “yeah, you’re right, that could be better worded”
9. We abused each other a bit in between some interesting points

Not much achievement for a day really, was it. Luckily I’ve done most of my work in between snatches on Kiwiblog, so I can go home soon and have a beer. And not have a laugh about kiwiblog – my partner found this cartoon too relevant: http://xkcd.com/386/
(PS: don’t forget the mouseover, and yes I know it was on kiwiblog a while ago so you all already saw it. But it is very relevant)
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April 25, 2008 6:50pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Roger Nome/Phillip John:

PaulL made a valid point:

On the stat that 20% of women in NZ have been raped – source please. I have seen studies and misquotes of this statistic before – there are reputable studies and ones that are less reputable. I have had people quote this statistic to me and when I went and checked the source material it was actually percentage of women who had unwanted sexual contact in their life – including touching or sexual comments. Shit, I’ve had unwanted sexual contact from both men and women, so I’d be surprised if that number were so low. Doesn’t make it right, but it is very different from 20% being raped. Given your penchant for misquoting, I’d like to see the study before I provide comment.

Your only response to a request, from PaulL and me, is to say:

Needless to say I’ll take the word of a professional who works in the area over yours POC

This is a double-standard. You said this the other day:

“His proof is in the public domain and verifiable”

Quotes from unnamed sources? Doesn’t sound too verifiable to me.

I don’t necessarily expect you to identify your friend. But you could identify a reputable research study that reinforces your point.

In a nutshell: you have no proof.
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April 25, 2008 6:54pm
helmet

Sigh, there goes the ‘I know you are but what am I’ insult again, twice in one night.

Rex, that’s a good post. Pity how the pinko extremists aspire to government, being the megalomaniac unemployable types that they are, while the right wing extremists tend to stay the hell away.

Paul I get that cartoon thrown at me all the bloody time. It’s true though!
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April 25, 2008 6:55pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Helmet:

POC I get that cartoon thrown at me all the bloody time. It’s true though!

Spooky – how did you know I hacked into PaulL’s WordPress account to provide the cartoon link? 🙂
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April 25, 2008 6:59pm
helmet

I hacked back in and changed it. Sorry man.
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April 25, 2008 7:03pm
JSF2008

Love checking out the nipples and surrounds , the bigger the sexier, more bonks for your money
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April 25, 2008 7:13pm
roger nome

Paul:

“3. I (we) called you out on that, pointing our reasons why that wasn’t so”

Um, where? I haven’t seen one little piece of evidence toward that point.

“5. I called you on that, and said that many of those studies use dubious definitions of rape, and asked for a source”

Looks to me as though they look at serious sexual assault as rape. Useful I’d say – i.e. according the law, if it doesn’t involve a penis it isn’t rape, but is only sexual violation. So perhaps we’re getting into semantics here. i.e. isn’t being defiled by a broken bottle as traumatic as sexual assault involving a penis? And isn’t that what actually matters here?

It’s also worth while noting that the vast majority of rape and sexual assault incidences aren’t reported to police – so any police derived statistics aren’t going to be very useful. The only official statistic I could find that were of remote worth were in the 1991 victimisation survey which found that:

“Nine percent of the females in New Zealand interviewed for this project stated that they had been a victim of a sexual incident in the past five years” –

and that:

“It should be noted that there is a strong likelihood of under-reporting of sexual incidents and offences. It is probable that at least some women will not tell an interviewer that they were a victim of such a crime for a number of reasons. These include that it may be embarrassing for them; they may feel it is too intimate to disclose; or, if the assault was by someone living with them, disclosure may be awkward or even dangerous for them.”

Certainly, when you look at his information it wouldn’t be surprising to learn that 20% of NZ women had been “raped” (according to rape crisis’ definition) or “raped” and or “sexually violated” according to the law.

http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/1995/victimisation/chapter_2.html#2.12

“7. You said it wasn’t, misquoted it and misquoted the NZ law in support of your argument”

nah – I said it was unclear, but provided what I thought was the most reasonable interpretation.

“9. We abused each other a bit in between some interesting points”

Usually the way at kiwiblog

“Not much achievement for a day really, was it. ”

Usually the way at kiwiblog

gotta go drink some wine. Latter.
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April 25, 2008 7:26pm
PaulL

Shit, Roger replied and it is in the RSS reader, but not on the page. Very spooky. Maybe DPF has worked out a handicap system for the lefties. Anyway, responding before it turns up.

(3). 4:53 and 5:38

(5). The victimisation survey doesn’t rely on police reporting. It found 9% for rape and sexual assault combined. I believe that sexual assualt has a significantly higher incidence than rape. Even if the victimisation survey (usually considered authoritative) had it wrong by 50%, it is very unlikely that your claim that 20% of NZ women have been raped would be right. I could agree that sexual violation that involves forcible penetration is pretty much the same as rape. Forced masturbation (assuming that means women forced to masturbate a man) is much less so. Unwanted touching (even violent and forceful touching) less so as well. I believe those latter two would be a substantial proportion, without going and finding the info I suspect that the victimisation study is finding around 2-3% rape, even using your “middle way” definition. (By middle way I mean pretty much anything that involves forcible penetration of mouth, vagina or anus, but not other things that are sexual assault).

(7) That social interaction problem again. You never actually said it was unclear, you just argued yourself around to a different definition. It would be much clearer if you said “you are right, that was unclear, but I think it means xyz.” You never do that, it is one of your failings.
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April 25, 2008 7:42pm
PaulL

Now that is funny. Not there no matter how often I refresh, but post my comment and it turns up. I like the way that DPF has made Roger’s ability to post contingent on me pressing the submit button 🙂
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April 25, 2008 7:42pm
helmet

Paul, when you say you pressed a button, do you mean that sexually? I don’t fancy you, it would be most unwelcome, and I’m starting to think that perhaps I’ve been raped.

We’re gonna have to change your name to Clint if you keep this up mate.
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April 25, 2008 7:54pm
capills_enema

Man, those bitches have got great tits.
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April 25, 2008 7:55pm
F E Smith

I have come to this a bit late but I have a couple or three things to say about it. Firstly, though, a disclosure: I am a criminal defence lawyer. Actually, I don’t see how that is relevant but I will get it in anyway before someone accuses me of having a vested interest. For some reason the defence bar seems to be considered to be just as much responsible for crimes as the people who commit them, but I will press on regardless.

Anyway, a few points, if I may:

1. All of the organisations that do work on sexual or domestic violence claim that there is ‘likely’ to be a huge amount of under-reporting of the type of offending they are looking at. For some reason, they never have any empirical or anecdotal evidence of the under-reporting, they just claim it happens. Sort of an unprovable claim, therefore, because if they aren’t being reported then we can’t say they exist for sure. We are simply guessing.

2. Most statistics coming out of rape crisis and women’s refuges are not from random surveys of the general population. Some are completely made up: remember the claim in the 1980’s that 25% of children in NZ were being abused? That was grossly untrue.

3. The definition that Rape Crisis uses in its data gathering is extremely broad. Just the same as the Justice Department surveys on domestic violence. That way we seem to have far more of a problem than we actually do. And don’t think I am minimising domestic violence. I am all too aware of what happens in our country and have seem some shocking situations.

4. Sexual violation and rape are punished the same way. There is no difference between them for sentencing purposes. These days you can expect at least 8 – 10 years or more for either.

5. Unwanted touching is an indecent assault. Much more broad (was it a touching and would a reasonable person find it indecent?) but also means a far higher risk of being convicted. The most minor incident I have seen of this was a colleague’s client who was convicted of kissing a teenage girl (who he knew) on the cheek when saying goodbye. And don’t read anything more sinister into it than that- that was the allegation! So it is very broad in potential applications. The Rape Crisis definition is certainly broad enough to cover Indecent Assaults as being part of Rape. Which they are not. Unpleasant, but not rape.

6. Rape is an offence that is easy to allege but hard to defend. I am certain that I have seen innocent men go to prison on these charges, notwithstanding the jury process. That is because all it takes is the word of the complainant and nothing more.

7. There are a lot of false complaints. False complaints can be power trips, or revenge, or attention seeking, or manipulative, among many other things. Sadly, no-one has looked into why they are made so frequently. Even worse, because the authorities don’t want to discourage the huge mass of raped women that are apparently out there (which of course number in the hundreds of thousands of rape victims) they usually simply warn the person and leave it there. Charges are rare. There are also a huge number of regretted sexual encounters. Under the Rape Crisis definitions, those regretted encounters can also be considered rape.

8. The law is clear on what rape is, and to call anything less by that name is to minimise what those who are actually raped have gone through. The Justice Department report that came up with the 9% figure included all forms of unwanted sexual contact.

9. There isn’t a culture of rape in this country. Nor does the video that started this thread further a culture of rape. To say that is simply stupid. And I mean that seriously.
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April 25, 2008 8:31pm
helmet

edit- deleted
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April 25, 2008 8:42pm
F E Smith

likewise
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April 25, 2008 8:43pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

F E Smith:

An excellent contribution to the discussion – thank you.

I doubt you’ll ever convince Phillip John/Roger Nome about your points. He’s self-declared a vested interest: his girlfriend lectures in gender studies. But I believe most moderate-thinking folk, like you, would watch the video and conclude that it’s a harmless exercise in humour. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for your other point that “the defence bar seems to be considered to be just as much responsible for crimes as the people who commit them“: I think the negative public perception may arise from the pleadings in mitigation. Not to tar all defence lawyers with the same brush, but I can think of a recent example reported in the local press where a defence lawyer was busily assuring the judge that his client was deeply remorseful. The truth was otherwise: his “client” was reportedly smirking and grinning throughout the court proceeding. Naturally, it’s the defence lawyer’s duty to put the best case forward for the client, but when that “best case” stretches beyond the point of credibility and into fantasy land, I think that’s when defence lawyers generate the negative public sentiment. Again, not to tar all of them with the same brush.
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April 25, 2008 8:47pm
Strutta

roger nome…you haven’t yet answered my questions.
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April 25, 2008 8:50pm
F E Smith

Thanks, Peak Oil.

I take your point about taking pleas in mitigation too far. It is very important to keep an eye on your client while making the plea because of just that situation. Undoes anything the client may have told one earlier! Unfortunately there are some lawyers who are only too happy to believe everything their client tells them, although in my experience they usually aren’t specialist defence lawyers, simply general practitioners who occasionally appear in court. But it certainly doesn’t help.
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April 25, 2008 9:14pm
Alces

It’s great to see that the forelock tugging Danes still retain some vestiges of market capitalism.

Contracts offered and accepted are as encouraging as a Asian street stall
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April 25, 2008 9:33pm
Alces

“an”
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April 25, 2008 9:47pm
the deity formerly known as nigel6888

Is this thread still going?

well well, so feminist ideologues tell porkies to support their prejudices.

who knew?
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April 25, 2008 11:46pm
MikeE

122 Comments and noone likes tits? What is this world coming to.

Surely any feminist should be defending a womans right to do what she wants with her own body… especially when it contributes to vehicular safety in this manner

😛
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April 25, 2008 11:58pm
roger nome

Stephen Franks:

I h8 miself and I am gay1
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April 26, 2008 3:24am
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Phillip John/Roger Nome:

April 25th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
gotta go drink some wine. Latter.

Then:

April 26th, 2008 at 3:24 am
I h8 miself and I am gay1

WTF? Is this Phillip John’s idea of chardonnay socialism?
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April 26, 2008 3:40am
Lee C

It think the idea of twin air-bags as a safety measure has already been piloted elsewhere.
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April 26, 2008 6:59am
the deity formerly known as nigel6888

yup POC I think you might be right. So not only is phillipjohn a dour humourless socialist git (but I repeat myself) he also can’t hold his liquor.

Interesting how he keeps on the unforced error. So PJs highest forms of insult are to call someone intellectually disabled or to accuse them of being gay. When he thinks about women he couples hatred (despises) with what he desires.

Some psychologist is going to have his/her next porsche paid for by PJ quite soon I reckon.

Wonder how his feminist gender studies “girlfriend” appreciates his misogyny, latent homophobia and self loathing – although I guess these are a set of core competencies for a male in the progressive left?
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April 26, 2008 8:03am
toms

Bahahahahahaha! I see this latest piece of David Farrar’s thematic misogyny has made the Herald this morning. A very bad piece of judgment by both Mr. Franks and his erstwhile manager.
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April 26, 2008 9:00am
the deity formerly known as nigel6888

yes Tom an alleged “national party supporter”, feels the need to call the Herald about a wellington central candidate. Why the Herald one wonders? Who is Mr Prouse? surely not another labour party activist running a false flag campaign?
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April 26, 2008 9:15am
ZenTiger

Roger Nome / Phillip John, you are so outed: Political Boobs
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April 26, 2008 12:16pm
radar

This thread has largely run out of steam, but if I may add my two cents: It says something about Stephen Franks that he would have such a video on his website. Hasn’t he always been seen as being a little odd? This really isn’t about having a sense of humour, it’s about the difference between good and poor taste, maturity and immaturity. I mean, would Don Brash do such a thing? Would John Key? Would Rodney Hide? And Mr Franks wanted to be the leader of the ACT Party. Thank goodness he lost that contest. The Nats are welcome to this odd ball.
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April 26, 2008 12:38pm
Brian Smaller

Lets face it. RogerNome obviously shares Mark Prebble’s views on breasts.
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April 26, 2008 12:41pm
labrator

Don’t go to the south of France in summer time roger. All the women on the beach promote rape whilst lying in the sun, going for swims, buying ice creams and having a good time. It’s a horrible place.
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April 26, 2008 3:59pm
Craig Ranapia

Roger Nome:

I find this a damn sight less “creepy” than ALAC’s latest shock jock ads showing in pre-watershed prime time. Including the charming one with ends with a drunk woman being lead into an alley by a man who turns to leer at the camera… and just as this image fades to black, she starts screaming.

Implied rape – A-OK?
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April 27, 2008 1:23am
Mike Readman

I got sent a link to this months ago by Nicky Wagner. Looks like National MPs and candidates are promoting it in a big way.
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April 27, 2008 1:23pm
Pascal

ZenTiger, I just read your post over on NZ Conservative and that was some damn fine investigative work. I guess now we can see how hollow little old Philip John really is.
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May 2, 2008 7:03am

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