The words of Gordon Copeland

November 28th, 2008 at 3:25 pm by David Farrar

Not many people know that has written an autobiography. Even fewer have actually read the autobiography. One hearty soul has been kind enough to read it, and also send to a few people selected extracts. Kiwiblog is proud to share these with the world, for your enjoyment:

First we have Chapter 12 on fighting Satan in Bangkok:

Jetlag does funny thing and I was wide awake in prayer at about 4am one morning in London when the Lord told me that Satan would attack me in Bangkok on the way home.

I had forgotten all about that a couple of days later when I was lying back in 40 degree Celsius heat alongside the swimming pool at the Oriental Hotel in Bangkok enjoying the sunshine. A beautiful girl stripped off topless alongside me and covered herself in suntan lotion before diving in for a swim. She was very much in my thoughts about 20 minutes later when I went back to my hotel room for a much needed nap.

Somewhere between the bedroom and the bathroom, I was physically attacked by an invisible spiritual being. I felt I was being strangled but strangely felt very little fear. The Lord’s warning to me in London suddenly flashed into my mind. I realised that I had been attacked by an unseen spiritual being from the realm of Satan. I am no stranger to demons and have many times, in ministering to people, found it necessary to rebuke spiritual beings in the name of Jesus Christ. The problem was that on this occasion I was incapable of speaking since my voice box appeared to be completely choked off. Inwardly, however, my spirit cried out desperately to God, “Help me!” From within the deep resources of my being a wave of the Holy Spirit rose up through my body and seemed to explode up through my throat and my mouth in a song, from my boyhood days of praise to God. I felt the spiritual being which had me in its grip loose me and leave. I was overcome with joy and went on singing my praise to God for several minutes. I didn’t even know that I still knew that particular hymn of praise!

Then in Chapter 3 we learn the secret to good forecasting for BP:

“In the 21 months I did the job my forecast of the month-by-month balance was never more than 3% away from the actual result. I was conscious week by week during 1974-75 of the Holy Spirit guiding my forecasts through one of the most turbulent periods in the history of the international oil industry.

Also how to gain clients in Chapter 13:

My office was was a desk in the corner of the lounge and, since I was unable to advertise, the best way to secure clients again seemed to be fervent prayer.

The love of goats:

The animal though, which provided us with the most joy was an un-neutered billygoat whom the children named “Gwillious”… Gwillious was, I think, just about the smelliest specimen of a goat ever to walk the planet Earth; was as strong as a bull and would butt anything that moved! In spite of that we were all immensely fond of him… Even now, it is difficult for us to take a drive in the country without Anne getting me to stop and admire the many goats which keep New Zealand’s roadway verges trim.

And finally resisting the attractiveness of females in Chapter 3:

“We all went off to a student party in Brooklyn run by some other ex-Kensington House boys and, against the trend, found ourselves short of girls. I gave those who were present a quick glance or two and decided that this particular evening should be devoted to beer and song. However, two or three beers and a couple of songs later it did seem to me that the attractiveness of the girls present had increased somewhat so I picked out the prettiest in the room and asked her for a dance. That proved to be a failry hilarious affair. Anne Davey (for that was her name) turned out to be a truly excellent dancer at both Rock and Roll and Twist, whereas my own efforts could only be described as pathetic.

“In typical student party style, Anne and I ended up, fairly late that evening, sittting in one of the bedrooms with half a dozen other couples, setting right the world’s problems. At one point in the conversation, Anne motioned towards a crucifix on the wall and asked me point blank whether I was Catholic. I gave a slightly too hurried and emphatic “No”, and she then calmly said to me, “Well, in that case, I bet you never thought you would be sitting here holding hands with a Catholic girl!” Her words hit me between the eyes and I almost dropped here hand there and then and invented an excuse to leave the room, but her sheer female attractiveness begged me to stay put.

Who knows what could have happened if he stayed put!

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72 Responses to “The words of Gordon Copeland”

  1. coge (176 comments) says:

    Well, he has a point. The best student parties always had lots of Catholic girls.

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  2. Manolo (13,304 comments) says:

    “I was wide awake in prayer at about 4am one morning in London when the Lord told me that Satan would attack me in Bangkok on the way home.”

    The Lord? Satan? This guy is a deluded fool and ought to be ignored.

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  3. bharmer (686 comments) says:

    And of course, he did marry Anne, they are still together and have a fine family. I have known Gordon a long time, and he and Anne were good neighbours. I just couldn’t come to grips with his politics though.

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  4. Johnboy (14,857 comments) says:

    I realise the above is only a short extract from his book but it can’t help but leave the impression that Gordon prefers goats to women.

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  5. dave (985 comments) says:

    Who knows what could have happened if he stayed put!
    He did stay put. Anne is Copelands wife.

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  6. bearhunter (859 comments) says:

    “Even fewer have actually read the autobiography”

    And one would imagine that their number vastly outweighs those who have actually BOUGHT the book. Although it looks like a comedy classic, in which a former MP outs himself as both a sectarian and a goat-fancier. Doesn’t happen often, I must admit.

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  7. Johnboy (14,857 comments) says:

    Come to think of it he must prefer goats as he was a member of United Future once.

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  8. jacob van hartog (309 comments) says:

    When there are lovely young ladies about there seems to be much ‘talking about Uganda’

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  9. berend (1,630 comments) says:

    Is this for real?

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  10. insider (999 comments) says:

    “She was very much in my thoughts about 20 minutes later when I went back to my hotel room for a much needed nap.”

    I’ll bet…though being Thailand, it could have been a girly boy

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  11. enough rope (107 comments) says:

    One night in Bangkok turns a soft-in-the-head man into a gibbering drongo.

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  12. Deborah (156 comments) says:

    Surely you have plagiarised this from the Dimpost, DPF. It bears all the hallmarks of Danyl’s excellent satire.

    [DPF: Nope, every word is from the book]

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  13. Hagues (711 comments) says:

    “However, two or three beers and a couple of songs later it did seem to me that the attractiveness of the girls present had increased somewhat”

    Yip it happens

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  14. Rex Widerstrom (5,253 comments) says:

    A beautiful girl stripped off topless alongside me and covered herself in suntan lotion before diving in for a swim. She was very much in my thoughts about 20 minutes later when I went back to my hotel room for a much needed nap.

    Somewhere between the bedroom and the bathroom, I was physically attacked by an invisible spiritual being.

    Known to the rest of us “a raging erection”.

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  15. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    This thread is confirmation of the epiphany I received to day about the relationship with God.

    Sometimes we feel so far from God yet He is still planning for us.

    We don’t know what we are doing with ourselves and we don’t know what God is doing with us, but He always is.

    In all cases, its not what man says, but what God says.

    there are many on this blog who wouldn’t understand a thing I’m saying and more the pity for them.

    But describing the Billy goat,(representing a place I spent many years in) I now know who the wild ox in my life has been I’ve never been able to control, but I now know God is preparing to tame it. Nu 23:22.

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  16. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Sounds almost as crazy as a socialist.

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  17. OllieGI (36 comments) says:

    I am saddened by the fact that so many people take swings at a man simply because he has faith in our God.

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  18. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I am saddened by the fact that so many people take swings at a man simply because he has faith in our God.”

    Faith in God is not the issue. Many people have faith in God without believing in supernatural occurrences such as Mr. Copeleand has related above. I support Christians and Christianity all the time on here and elsewhere in the blogosphere, but there is nothing I can say to defend stories of physical attacks from unseen demons.

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  19. dave (985 comments) says:

    I am saddened by the fact that so many people take swings at a man simply because he has faith in our God.

    More like discrimination on the basis of religious belief, actually. Is that what you want to encourage here, DPF?

    [DPF: There is a huge difference between faith in God and feeling the need to chronicle how Satan attacked you in Bangkok after you saw an attractive girl]

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  20. ropata (117 comments) says:

    His political judgement was lousy, but I admire Copeland’s humility and honesty here. It should also be pointed out that the book is an autobiography, not structured to be a compelling defense of the Christian faith, and DPF appears to have selectively chosen parts of the book to laugh at. A sincere reader could find brilliant apologetics and more scholarly autobigraphies.

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  21. Grant Michael McKenna (1,156 comments) says:

    I’m glad that Gordon stuck to his principles. Masturbation is unnatural. In the Book of Genesis we read that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam, a stack of Hustler magazines and a box of tissues! :-)

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  22. lyndon (330 comments) says:

    She was very much in my thoughts about 20 minutes later when I went back to my hotel room for a much needed nap.

    There is precedent.

    Unfortunately at these resorts there are never thick briers and nettle bushes around when you need them.

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  23. Rod (236 comments) says:

    I seem to remember another of these political Christians had some difficulties coping with his natural urges, and spent some time as a guest of the Queen for his sins. May still be there for all I know. Perhaps in his case he just couldn’t remember the words of the hymn in time.

    MMP certainly pulls them out of the woodwork …

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  24. ropata (117 comments) says:

    Humans are flawed creatures, some things we presently consider PC and acceptable are actually weird and gross in other cultures. I guess we mock what we don’t understand.

    I saw more faces, images of a later time, a crowd of humans in a banquet hall. They wore costly fabrics and perfumes and their pockets were filled with slender machines of plastic and silicon. They had cunning eyes, and faces adorned with subtle cosmetics. Spells of deception and power were woven into their every glance and spoken word. Amidst an array of glass and metal implements they sat at tables of white linen and dined on the cooked tissues of their fellow mammals.

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  25. Johnboy (14,857 comments) says:

    “I saw more faces, images of a later time, a crowd of humans in a banquet hall. They wore costly fabrics and perfumes and their pockets were filled with slender machines of plastic and silicon. They had cunning eyes, and faces adorned with subtle cosmetics. Spells of deception and power were woven into their every glance and spoken word. Amidst an array of glass and metal implements they sat at tables of white linen and dined on the cooked tissues of their fellow mammals.”

    So you were at the last farewell dinner for the outgoing government then ropata?

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  26. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    >Who knows what could have happened if he stayed put!

    Who knows what could have happened if the goat hadn’t been quite so smelly!

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  27. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    You are having us on arent you?

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  28. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Ropata,

    Where did you get that text from.

    Its almost like a lost verse to ‘Hotel California’

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  29. Johnboy (14,857 comments) says:

    “I’m glad that Gordon stuck to his principles. Masturbation is unnatural. In the Book of Genesis we read that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam, a stack of Hustler magazines and a box of tissues!”

    Quite right twas Onan who the Lord created to go with the stick books and the kleenex.

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  30. Rex Widerstrom (5,253 comments) says:

    From within the deep resources of my being a wave of the Holy Spirit rose up through my body and seemed to explode … I felt the spiritual being which had me in its grip loose me and leave…

    Did someone mention a box of Kleenex?

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  31. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    Catholic girls are great, nothing like them when when a bit of guilt is needed for
    confession.

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  32. toad (3,668 comments) says:

    coge said: Well, he has a point. The best student parties always had lots of Catholic girls.

    Yep, but they were all a bit too keen a bit too early about procreating imo, and I didn’t want to be the guy who got one up the duff.

    I knew they likely did not use contraception, would not have abortions, and knew that I’d end up paying the Liable Parent Contribution (as it was then – now Child Support) if the unthinkable, but likely, outcome occurred. I recall one Catholic girl who baulked at the suggestion of using a condom – not God’s way apparently – (but we did manage to get each other off by non-coital means, which was still fun).

    Um, yes Rex, I recall we did need the Kleenex afterwards! She didn’t like the taste, apparently.

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  33. beautox (430 comments) says:

    What a load of bullcrap. The Oriental is a super high end hotel (voted the best hotel in the world on more than on occasion) and nobody would be allowed to get away with being topless at the pool there. It’s just inconceivable. Even in a low end hotel it would not be allowed, let alone the Oriental.

    This reeks of a westerner’s imagination of what Bangkok is like, rather than the reality (and I know, having lived there for several years with my Thai wife).

    I also don’t understand the phrase “somewhere between the bedroom and the bathroom”. Given that the bedroom and bathroom would be adjoining rooms, why not say “as I was passing through the bathroom door”. Maybe his erection was in the bathroom but he was in the bedroom? (and his brains in the toilet??)

    Clearly he is a deluded fool. (But I think we knew that already).

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  34. Psycho Milt (2,246 comments) says:

    I have some sympathy with Gordon, having encountered no end of topless women on German beaches. I can assure readers of this thread that close proximity to one definiitely does involve a visit from Satan and the strong temptation to nip off for a joyful spiritual experience.

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  35. enough rope (107 comments) says:

    I recall one Catholic girl who baulked at the suggestion of using a condom – not God’s way apparently – (but we did manage to get each other off by non-coital means, which was still fun).
    And she never so much as kissed you because, well, you’re still a toad.

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  36. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    It’s always easy for the faithless to make fun of the faithful.

    The fact is that Satan is always among us and always against us. Most of us never detect him with the skill that Gordon has, but make no mistake, he is there.

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  37. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    Beautox>The Oriental is a super high end hotel (voted the best hotel in the world on more than on occasion) and nobody would be allowed to get away with being topless at the pool there

    Maybe he mistook a bloke with man boobs for a woman?

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  38. enough rope (107 comments) says:

    The fact is that Satan is always among us and always against us. Most of us never detect him with the skill that Gordon has, but make no mistake, he is there.

    According to some sources he appears to his victims in the form of a goat. Got right under Gordon’s radar, didn’t he.

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  39. Johnboy (14,857 comments) says:

    “The fact is that Satan is always among us and always against us. Most of us never detect him with the skill that Gordon has, but make no mistake, he is there.”

    No SHE was there pushme disguised as a Prime Minister and her little goblin Micky. We cast them both out on the 8th—–remember now do you?

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  40. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    If Satan had claimed Gordon in Bangkok he would have joined Labour.

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  41. NZD.JPY (130 comments) says:

    This seems to be a recurring theme among those who like to think of themselves as more spiritually attuned. I’ve seen women convulsing up the front of a church in religious ecstasy, actually looking like they are climaxing. They seem to equate their own chemical urges with the spirtual which is probably why they put such a premium on their “purity” and regard themselves as more moral if they haven’t had sex despite the fact that outside this cosy environment they are quite unexceptional when the hard calls need to be made. And that’s another thing, they like to claim preferential treatment from god for things that they should take responsibility for themselves. God giving you forecasting numbers? Blaming satan for turning you into a superstitious twat when really your heart is racing because you are horny – which you bloody well should be if a topless woman covers herself in sunscreen next to you? With that kind of mentality you can perpetrate any kind of evil and justify yourself.

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  42. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    Ropata said
    “it should also be pointed out that the book is an autobiography, not structured to be a compelling defense of the Christian faith, and DPF appears to have selectively chosen parts of the book to laugh at.”

    What do you expect? DPF like many who post here is an immoral person. Of course he is going to denigrate Gordon or someone like him given an opportunity like this, it’s what they do.
    One could be gracious and suggest that DPF has had one too many at Backbenchers, but we all know that’s balls.
    So if you’re a person of faith you’re warned (if you’ve been blind up to now). Don’t moan if it happens to you in the future. Besides which, the post says more about DPF than anything it might about Gordon.
    Who is a sincere man who clearly loves his wife and is prepared to be honest about his life to help and encourage them in their own struggles.
    DPF knowingly trashes that selectively with malice.

    Welcome to the world people.

    things are not what they seem
    this is a world at war
    the prize is your heart
    you have a part to play

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  43. Lou (43 comments) says:

    I’ve always thought it interesting the number of people I’ve met throughout my life who have no trouble believing in God but consequently think the idea of satan is silly.
    Oxymoronic, perhaps?

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  44. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    um, what Turpin said.

    DPF: Christians are pretty soft targets really. However posting something openly (and equally) mocking of Muslims would demonstrate real commitment to atheist ideals.

    [DPF: I published the Danish Mohammed cartoons before the NZ media did. And when Ashraf Choudary said nutty things about stoning gays I highlighted that]

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  45. enough rope (107 comments) says:

    Christians are pretty soft targets really.
    Only the barkingly soft-headed ones, such as Gordon the gullible.

    . . . the idea of satan is silly.
    The satan that played sillybuggers with Copeland sounds like a prize goose. One could be forgiven for thinking that they’re made for each other.

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  46. clintheine (1,563 comments) says:

    Beautox -with an average room at around $USD450 a night if you wanted to go topless at the Oriental Mandarin you could get away with it. But I do understand the misconceptions about Bangkok from people who have never been there before. A beautiful city of many extremes.

    How I read what Gordon said was this:

    A beautiful girl stripped off topless alongside me and covered herself in suntan lotion before diving in for a swim. She was very much in my thoughts about 20 minutes later when I went back to my hotel room for a xxxxxxx.

    I …. strangled it…. it felt very little fear. I was incapable of speaking since my xxxxxxx appeared to be completely choked off. Inwardly, however, my xxxxxx cried out desperately…, “xxxxx me!” From within the deep resources of my being a wave of xxxxxx rose up through my body and seemed to explode up through my throat and my xxxx in a song, . I felt the xxxxx being which had me in its grip loose me and leave. I was overcome with joy…….for several minutes.

    Yep, Gordon is pure filth! :)

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  47. JimBWarrior (47 comments) says:

    Now that the excitement of the erections is over does Kiwiblog sink into tearing the souls apart of those who dare to bare them?

    Come on David you can do better than that.

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  48. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    An outdated bronze age superstition deserves to have the piss taken out of it.

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  49. Christopher (425 comments) says:

    An outdated bronze age superstition deserves to have the piss taken out of it.

    Hear fucking hear.

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  50. dad4justice (7,718 comments) says:

    Do you need a hearing aid Christopher? Oh by the way, hows Greywolf and sonic? Talk about demons on blogosphere eh matey!

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  51. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    DPF: Christians are pretty soft targets really. However posting something openly (and equally) mocking of Muslims would demonstrate real commitment to atheist ideals.

    Ditto about Islam.

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  52. dad4justice (7,718 comments) says:

    Don’t mention Islam expat, as you’ll get a bomb blast for breakfast!!

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  53. Inventory2 (10,087 comments) says:

    It’s easy to mock, but unless you have had an experience with the supernatural, it’s impossible to be objective.

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  54. Neil (555 comments) says:

    Quite disappointed in the reaction to a very vacuous lead post.
    I believe this book is about personal thoughts, people have that freedom to believe what they want providing they don’t force it down other peoples throats.
    I believe that the mud throwers against Copland are the “anti-religious climb on the band wagon mob” hitting someone when they are down, especially after the election. So much of it directed sexually.
    Would they attack an athiest in such a manner ? Helen Clark’s views on some subjects were daft ? Would they attack her in such a manner ? I feel our Christian community get hammered for little, at times I think there is a dislike of people who really live their christianity. I call it “trendyism”
    Perhaps Copland was right in avoiding a one night stand in Bangkok when he could have got “more” than he bargained for.
    I had one contact with Gordon Copland, over the Overseas Investment Bill. He was the only in about 12 committee members who had a discussion with me about the whole thing by email. Good on him, even though then he did not agree with my arguments.
    Gordon was a bit annoying with his zealotry at times and lacked perhaps a sense of humour, however one cannot dismiss his sincerity and character of belief. By the way I voted National not Kiwi Party.
    Give him a bit of credit ! Now looking for all the negatives in reaction to this !!!!!!!!!

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  55. Psycho Milt (2,246 comments) says:

    DPF like many who post here is an immoral person.

    And like many Christians, Turpin seems not to have figured out that becoming a Christian didn’t suddenly make him a “moral” person – just one more sinner whose immorality’s been forgiven.

    Perhaps Copland was right in avoiding a one night stand in Bangkok…

    It may be disappointing to learn this, but unfortunately the fact that a woman gets her top off next to you at a pool or beach and proceeds to put on sunscreen does not mean she’s offering you something.

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  56. Christopher (425 comments) says:

    Do you need a hearing aid Christopher?

    That was amazingly clever. Well done.

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  57. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    In order to hassle Muslims they have to be in the news for doing something other than being horribly destructive – kinda speaks for itself doesn’t it?

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  58. The Vagus Kid (11 comments) says:

    I’m amazed that I have some thing in commom with Copland the world and of course girls often looks better through the bottom of a beer glass.

    Any who hears the voice of god does and acts on it is seriously dodgey. Still this a country where one is free to beleive what you will. The thing that vexes me about Copland and other fundamentalists is that they want to impose their beliefs and way of life on me and do not wish to live and let live. The terrorists in Mumbai most likely heard the voice of god.

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  59. enough rope (107 comments) says:

    The terrorists in Mumbai most likely heard the voice of god.

    Quite likely, but equating that with Copeland’s dimwitted busybody agenda is a bit of a stretch.

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  60. The Vagus Kid (11 comments) says:

    Agreed Copeland is a dimwitted busybody. If he wasn’t who knows what actions he would take on behalf of god. The Mumbai terrorists are just more ardent and better organised.

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  61. Zapper (925 comments) says:

    # pushmepullu (615) Vote: Add rating 5 Subtract rating 6 Says:
    November 28th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    It’s always easy for the faithless to make fun of the faithful.

    The fact is that Satan is always among us and always against us. Most of us never detect him with the skill that Gordon has, but make no mistake, he is there.

    Classic. Next time you see him please point him out to us. I’d also like some footage of the tooth fairy. Many thanks.

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  62. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    People like Copeland don’t do it for the acclaim, their reward is in the next life.’

    I have no doubt that he is used to the vacuous smears of left wing atheists who think his grappling with evil is some sort of hilarious joke and will respond only with prayers that you be forgiven… I wouldn’t bet on it though.

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  63. Manolo (13,304 comments) says:

    “The fact is that Satan is always among us and always against us.”

    Where is the fabled Satan? Prove it scientifically and I will believe you.
    I have nothing against your desire to believe in myth, superstition, and old stories, but don’t ask me to join the party of the gullible.

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  64. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Turpin,

    “Things are not what they seem
    this is a world at war
    the prize is your heart
    you have a part to play”

    Heh, well said. Youv’e been reading John Eldredge.

    NZD.JPY,

    “This seems to be a recurring theme among those who like to think of themselves as more spiritually attuned.”

    Almost anyone can be spiritually attuned, it just takes training.

    “They seem to equate their own chemical urges with the spirtual”

    How do you know thats what it was? Or that our “chemistry” is not hardwired to be spiritual? I have seen things and had experiences that cannot be put down to mere chemicals alone.

    “and regard themselves as more moral if they haven’t had sex”

    This is a common liberal misconception. In fact good sex and good spirituality go together. This issue with sex is not sex itself, which is a gift and blessing from God. The issue is covenant faithfulness in marriage, and that sex was created for marriage alone.

    As to DPF, this is his blog and we are his guests. But posting this in the way he did was a cheap shot without a doubt. As I have said before, scratch a right wing liberal and a left wing liberal and what do you find? A liberal.

    And liberalism is the disease that is eating away at the heart of the West.

    Manolo,

    “Where is the fabled Satan?”

    Within nature/creation.

    “Prove it scientifically and I will believe you.”

    Heh. Think about that statement for a moment.

    “I have nothing against your desire to believe in myth, superstition, and old stories,”

    Lots of unprovable non-scientific assumptions there. Your faith is that the Bible is myth and superstition and old stories, which is fine. But its just as much faith and belief as any Christian.

    “but don’t ask me to join the party of the gullible.”

    I would argue that you already have.

    Here is the myth of liberal-secular society:

    How did the universe begin? By accident.

    How will the universe end? By accident.

    The problem with this myth is that for most people the accidental life is not worth living, which is why secularism is dying.

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  65. Michael E (274 comments) says:

    Perhaps the story of Thomas is appropriate here – he would not believe that Jesus was alive until he saw him, and touched the wounds in his hands and side. Jesus did allow him to do so, but berated Thomas for not having faith without proof.

    It disturbs me when I hear other Christians (yep, I’m one too) insisting on having supernatural experiences that they attribute to God as being proof of their faith.

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  66. labrator (1,742 comments) says:

    This thread reminds me of the whole Isaac Hayes v South Park thing.

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  67. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Michael,

    I certainly would not say that spiritual experiences, or signs and wonders, are proof of faith but confirmation of faith already attained. I think the entire notion of “proof” is largely a convenient and hypocritical straw man used by secularists and atheists.

    At the same time I have had experiences and seen real miracles that for me are undeniable.

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  68. Lou (43 comments) says:

    I haven’t been able to get this thread out of my mind all day — the mindless ridiculing of Gordon Copeland is just that, mindless. But while I agree with Lee that DPF took a cheap shot (and I profoundly doubt DPF would have the balls to do likewise to a muslim), still…this only makes DPF part and parcel of the growing norm. And that’s scary.

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  69. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    Michael E
    Are you?
    I am glad as you disturb God with your attitude.

    Things are not what they seem.
    I saw my first shade (familiar spirit to you Christians) before my 10th birthday.
    We watched an Ouija board pointer move without our touching them in that time (that scared me).
    My first time astral traveling was just after my 12th birthday out of a BAC 111 on it’s way to Barcelona on a family Holiday.

    Throughout my teens and twenties I had different supernatural experiences some with what we called elementals at different periods. I was what I now call a dabbler though not actively a witch, and I found that the spirit realm is a real place.

    I syncretised my spirituality in that I thought I was a Christian (probably as that’s what my parents identified as and being baptised as a baby), I accepted reincarnation, karma, UFO’s and a lot of the gaia (greeny) stuff as it fit with a loving God, had helped friends get abortions, done whatever I wanted in my life.

    I came to faith one Wednesday morning in 1993 as a result of a retired primary school principal, (who was a Methodist minister in the Western Cape) Cynthia Richards, who worked with Michael Cassidy of Natal.
    I’d been involved with a little Anglican church for 4 years and went on a leadership course in the townships, on that Wednesday am she was talking about demonology 101 and the spirit realm and our relationship with a supernatural God in a (physical) disbelieving world.

    I was blown away for I knew the truth of some of what she was explaining first hand as it had been my actual physical experience, on being confronted with this I realised that I had been dabbling with God/faith and handn’t thought through the ramifications of my choices.
    I realised that I had a choice, to carry on as I was or make a break with my lifestyle and be His wholly.

    How can I say this to you a person who affirms he is a Christian but says
    “It disturbs me when I hear other Christians (yep, I’m one too) insisting on having supernatural experiences that they attribute to God as being proof of their faith.”

    You see I was prayed for at Lunchtime and after giving the rest of my life to God was delivered and baptised in the Spirit with speaking in tongues.
    An experience that I had heard about before but dismissed as a historical fantasy or a psycho experience of weak kneed people.
    I went back to the classroom knowing that before lunch I hadn’t been a Christian but now I was, I had also been a racist, chauvinist, liar, thief, murderer and now I was aware like I had never been before.

    You can’t have the full relationship you can with God without the Holy Spirit, the bible is written for people to read in conjunction with a real time relationship with the Holy Spirit.
    If you aren’t spiritually aware how can you know or even experience this?

    My experience doesn’t say I am a Christian, my accepting who He is and bowing the knee in my heart towards Him does.
    But my journey is significant in that without the spirit realm and that morning in 1993 I might not have came to Christ.
    My life experience is not yours but you claim to serve/accept a supernatural God who speaks and acts supernaturally through both the OT and NT and in the lives of millions of people today.

    I ask you.
    What is it that keeps you from all that you can be and have in the Gen 2:24/25 relationship with Him?
    If you would like to have coffee sometime I would be willing to do that even if that means coming to you somewhere in NZ.

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  70. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Lou,

    It is only what Christ told us to expect. And it says more about them than us.

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  71. NZD.JPY (130 comments) says:

    Lee – Oh dear. Here come all those christians who went forward at an alter call and now feel like they are part of a larger world that us close minded rationalists couldn’t possibly comprehend. I was bought up in a christian home by parents who were very grateful for gods continuing interventions as if it were proof that he still loved them as if living a selfless life and then dying at the hands of an evil society wasn’t enough. They could have had a much better life if they simply had a better work ethic. They are smart people. I do believe in god and can’t see the point of any other kind than a loving one however I think it is extreme vanity to believe you have a hotline to gods will. Jesus taught principles that would equip you to endure this shitty life with humility. That’s the reason I believe in him. He didn’t offer an escape from your responsibilities and endured a death that you bloody mystics couldn’t because it wasn’t filled with butterflies and affirmation. You come out of the woodwork with this persecuted glow lifting your eyes to heaven and believe that our lack of faith in your assurance is proof that you are following jesus. Instead I think you are mocked because like I said before – despite that fact that you claim to know gods will you are still no better at making the right decision than anyone else.

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  72. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    NZDJPY
    “Jesus taught principles that would equip you to endure this shitty life with humility. That’s the reason I believe in him”.

    Is that the only reason you believe in Him?
    Jesus came to show what God is like as well as being the gift of God’s immeasurable Love.
    Isn’t that the reason for the season :-)

    Actually I do know God’s will.
    Listen up carefully NZDJPY.

    He loves you, you are special to Him, it is not His will that you should perish.
    But His forgiveness will not get in the way of His perfect Justice.

    That is the issue most people have with Jesus.
    Yes, He came meek and mild but His purpose was to undo what was done and restore to us God’s immeasurable Love forever.
    However He is the Creator not us.

    It is truly surrendering the allegiance of our hearts (hidden part of us) to Him as God that makes the difference.
    It is a rational decision that has supernatural implications.
    Emotion isn’t the benchmark here.
    That should change the way we interact with Him and the world.

    But a new Heart only gets us in the game.
    Next step is Him living in us and through us minute by minute as we share our lives with Him.
    There’s the challenge – read Jesus talking about the vine and fruit in John.

    It wasn’t about just a principle.
    You are worth a whole lot more than a principle to Him:-)

    Things are not What they seem.
    This is a world at war
    The prize is your heart.
    Shalom

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