Are we there yet?
My daughter and I were out and about this morning. We had to stop to watch a huge tree being chopped down by a pair of arborists. The arborist abseiling around the top of the tree was… a woman.
After watching for a few minutes we continued on to walk by a fire engine being driven by… a woman.
We then walked by a construction site. The digger driver was… a woman.
My question is simple. Are we there yet? Has feminism done a major part of what it intended to do – ensure women can have access to once male dominated areas? Or has the agenda of feminism (good and bad) evolved into something else?
I still wonder if some who call themselves feminists are stuck on the idea of equality of destination over equality of opportunity.
I know that the likes of The Hand-mirror and The Standard will roar on about how women earn less than men in the same position however how much of that is because of each individual woman’s negotiation skills and own expectations of income vs big bad paternalistic society imposing lesser salaries on women. And, yes, I know there are some pricks for employers (male and female alike)!
As a child I remember getting my first “Girls can do anything” sticker. Before I got that sticker I hadn’t even considered women or girls couldn’t do anything. My parents instilled in me that I could do and be anything I put my mind to. Where there is a will there is a way. They (and my step parents) still believe that to this day.
I accept that real discrimination takes place – but how much of the gender discrimination espoused by so many on the Left is the “eye of the beholder” or an individual woman’s own expectations or lack of self esteem and awareness?
Frankly, women get a harder time from other women than they do from men. That is another post altogether!
November 10th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Nice post Jadis. I agree with your sentiment and I wonder if the pendulum hasn’t overshot the mark and swung a little to far (as is always the case with “correctional” actions). A poster mentioned here the other day in I think the “Falling boys” thread that perhaps a “boys can do anything” initiative be started. New Zealand is failing men in education badly.
One of my real bug bears is the current standards in TV advertising. It’s not immediately obvious but if you read the subtext of a lot of ads, a man is often made out to be an idiot who needs a woman to come and correct his failings or he is desperate for acknowledgement in some way. Whilst there are plenty of examples of this if you keep an eye out for it, the one that springs to mind is of the mindless gorm, standing waiting in front of the dishwasher, waiting for his partner to notice him closing the dishwasher so that he can be acknowledged for doing something as if all his satisfaction is achieved by a pathetic task. Meanwhile she is portrayed as being sporting, active, driven and accomplished. These stereotypes are doing damage to the male role model and when combined with the lack of male teachers in schools, where do our young men find their inspiration with so many broken families?
So next time you’re watching TV, keep an eye out for which gender is made to look good or bad in the advertising you see.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Good post. I have two daughters (9 and 11) and a son (5). Each has ambitions in the context of their age. None of my children have ever considered their sex to be an impairment or a bonus as to what they may want to do in life. Of course their aspirations may change in time, but what is important is that they have ambition without the limitations that society and/or the femi-nazis place upon them.
My two daughters and son are all keen to have a family – no surprise there as they come from a happy stable family envoronment but again they do not see a career choice as having an impact on their family aspirations.
In New Zealand we live in a society where we all have freedom to make choices about our lives. It is as equal as any society could reasonably wish to acheive. We have and continue to strive for a society in that there is equal opportunity to acheive – but this does not necessarily mean equal outcome.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
The fact that you thought a female fireman was worthy of note suggests that you aren’t there yet..
November 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I agree generally with what is being said here, and Labrator, whenever I see the dishwasher puke advert I either switch channels or switch off. There are a lot of bad adverts on, common themes are selfishness, laughing at other’s misfortunes (or being the cause of other’s misfortunes), that you “deserve” to waste your money on some overpriced vanity crap etc etc.
But I don’t fully agree with some things claimed here – equal opportunity and you can do anything if you put your mind to it. Equality is an unattainable ideal – doesn’t mean we should strive for it but life isn’t designed to be equal. Gender restricted sports are an obvious example. We are limited by our physical attributes, I was never going to be a good basket baller physically and could never reach the top in netball genderly.
And I accept there are many things I couldn’t achieve no matter how much I wanted to put my mind to it. I will never be an astronaut, nor will I ever be POTUS. Determination is more likely to got you results, but there are no guarantees and there are some impossibilities.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I agree with Repton.
But what is are we there yet to you actually?
I’m sure it’s different for all of us in some way.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Actually… the Are we there yet? is my point. It is a little like being perfect, completely unattainable. I guess the problem arises when we decide what enough is. That is the problem with attempting to have equality of outcome/destination. Ultimately, we don’t all want the same thing, and that is actually ok. As a female it is ok for me to be a housewife as much as a Dr or a policy analyst. I get more comment passed about me being a housewife than I did as a policy analyst.
Pete – Even I don’t fully believe in “equal opportunity and you can do anything” BUT you’re a damn sight more likely to achieve what you want to achieve with a healthy attitude.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
So if you are neither here nor there, where are you?
Seriously tho’ where “there” is, is a matter of individual perception. There will always be those to whom “there” is complete domination and ability to survive and continue without men with all the horrendous (to me) implications of that.
The fact that there is a bit of a resurgence of people who are happy to openly declare that they can find a comforatable place where men and women share most things but have tasks that one or other is better at than the other is healthy IMVHO. Interestingly those tasks roughly fall into traditional role patterns.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
how much of that is because of each individual woman’s negotiation skills and own expectations of income vs big bad paternalistic society imposing lesser salaries on women.
The point is the reasons for women earning less don’t make it ok.
If women are earning less because they don’t have good negotiation skills, then we need to teach women negotiating skills, starting when they are very young. The different social expectations on boys v girls as children probably play a huge role. Find the reasons, and fix them.
[DPF: So arrange a video conference once a year with all five year old girls and Cactus Kate. That will fix the problem]
November 10th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Jadis: thought provoking post. Thank you.
Repton: I don’t think that Jadis necessarily saw a female fireman as noteworthy. She was listing off the occupations previously thought of as male only, and pointing out that there are females in them now. And asking whether we need to get to exactly 50:50 before we say we’re done, or whether it is enough to say that women who want to be firemen can be, and if not very many women want to be firemen, then that is OK.
Rocky: my experience is that women generally earn the same as men where they do the same job. In my organisation, and in the other organisations I’ve worked in, I’ve never seen a situation where a man and a woman sit side by side doing the same job, and the man gets paid more for being a man. I’ve seen situations where one or the other has more seniority or time at level, but for whatever reason they’re doing the same job at the moment. But never same job same skills with different pay.
I can also say that I have seen examples where women have been given opportunities, pay rises or promotions purely because they are a woman. Usually (but not always) they then have to live up to the expectations of that new job, but the point is that they get opportunities that men are denied. As such, in the areas in which I work, I think the pendulum has swung too far.
I also see the huge gender disparity in tertiary education these days. That concerns me – if that disparity were the other way round then the feminists would be screaming blue murder. We don’t have a significant men’s lobby, but I suspect we’re going to start getting one. And that the lobby will focus on issues like prostate screening (the female dominated health department sees that as less valuable than breast cancer screening), education, and probably also the ability for boys to be boys – I’m not sure that we (men or women) really want all our next generation to grow up as namby pambies who can’t put up a shelf, won’t squash the spiders, and catch a cold when it rains on them.
November 10th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
PaulL
Over many years of have employed 100’s of staff and cannot recall at any time looking at the gender of the applicant. Always was the best applicant for the role.
I even employed mothers to be and allowed my office (I excused myself of course) to be used for feeding the baby rather than miss out on the best applicant for the job.
Salary matched job and ability to do the job and nothing else.
Prehaps that is the profit driven right winger in me.
November 10th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Be careful what you wish for for it may give you an unintended result. Use to flat with several woman that believed girls can do anything and the top was where they wanted to be. I never disagreed, to scared. Anyhow some thirty years on yes they made it, whatever that means but it came with a price. Most put ambition before a stable relationship and are now somewhat like lost sheep. One has even admitted that to me that giving her life to the job has robbed her of something that now is probably beyond her reach, a family. I suspect my other friend is now questioning her life to.
November 10th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
“DPF: So arrange a video conference once a year with all five year old girls and Cactus Kate. That will fix the problem”
If I am paid out of the Te reo Marama smoking budget then I am IN!!!
At 5 their negotiation skills are usually fine – scream and cry until you get what you want.
At 45 and in the Boardroom surrounded by men that doesn’t work so well.
So clearly some education is required for the gender.
November 10th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
I went to an all girl high school in the late eighties/early nineties.
On the wall in one of the classrooms was a poster with the same phrase as your sticker
‘girls can do anything’
I remember thinking ‘Gee – that poster must be SO OLD!’
November 10th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
“One of my real bug bears is the current standards in TV advertising. It’s not immediately obvious but if you read the subtext of a lot of ads, a man is often made out to be an idiot who needs a woman to come and correct his failings or he is desperate for acknowledgement in some way. Whilst there are plenty of examples of this if you keep an eye out for it, the one that springs to mind is of the mindless gorm, standing waiting in front of the dishwasher, waiting for his partner to notice him closing the dishwasher so that he can be acknowledged for doing something as if all his satisfaction is achieved by a pathetic task.”
this would be the same series of ads that portrays the woman as a selfish, stupid, gold-digging shopoholic?
November 10th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
I remember the “girls can do anything” posters in the 1990’s at primary and high school. I also remember a maths teacher coating her walls with both pro-female and anti-male propaganda. We were made to feel like we were second class citizens, although thankfully we were never backward in coming forward to point out the rather outrageous inequalities, and we never took it to heart.
I still remember the assembly for 7th formers at the start of the year to point out all the university scholarships that were available to apply for. The teacher got up at the start and actually said these words and laughed “Now there is something for everyone here, unless you are a white male – you have to earn your scholarships”.
It didn’t harm any of us as most of the boys in my year are now successful lawyers, doctors, IT professionals, teachers and even NRL players. But if the trend continued then I can only imagine how bad it is for boys at school now.
November 10th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Good post. For most of my generation (early 30s) ability it is way more important than gender.
November 10th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
I don’t know, I don’t watch a lot of television and to be honest I don’t even know what they’re advertising.
However, that’s besides the point. I only meant to offer a hypothesis that advertisement in NZ portrays men in a negative light more often than it does women and to give an example of it. Perhaps you’ll notice the trend now that I’ve mentioned it, perhaps I’m imagining it.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:12 am
lab, you most certainly are not imagining it.
What about the one where the 2 girls refer to the big man as a beached whale or something similar? Reverse the genders on that one and see how it goes. I forget what it was advertising. Not that I would buy it anyway.
Or those stupid westpac ads with couples talking? One of them implies her husband is too dumb to do internet banking, one of them says she can use internet banking to trace her husbands movements and one of them tells us how lucky her husband is to have her!
November 11th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Damn I wish the bloody feminists would stop this crap about women being able to foot it with men when it comes to physical work/sports.
A little bird tells me that woman in the infantry is not a roaring success, trying to kid people that 55KG women can hump 60KG was never going to work.
As for the women who want mixed gender contact sports, be careful of what you wish for, you may get it.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:12 am
And I have my doubts about female firefighters, why are they hiring women who are a damn sight weaker than I am, and I am a grizzled old bugger but I bet I could hump 70 KG of hose a damn sight quicker than any female firefighter.
Is PC raising it’s ugly head when it comes to hiring ?
November 11th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Jadis: “Frankly, women get a harder time from other women than they do from men. That is another post altogether!”
Hear hear. My missus says a big reason she decided to learn a trade was that she was sick of working in offices or retail “with stupid dizzy little bitches”
November 11th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Are we there yet?
No
Until all straight NZ males are turned into lesbians the feminists will never rest.