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304 Responses to “General Debate 23 November 2009”
Some topics inside the leaked global warming emails:
▪ Michael Mann discusses how to destroy a journal that has published sceptic papers.(1047388489)
▪ Tim Osborn discusses how data are truncated to stop an apparent cooling trend showing up in the results (0939154709). Analysis of impact here. Wow!
▪ Phil Jones describes the death of sceptic, John Daly, as “cheering news”.
▪ Phil Jones encourages colleagues to delete information subject to FoI request.(1212063122)
▪ Phil Jones says he has use Mann’s “Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series”…to hide the decline”. Real Climate says “hiding” was an unfortunate turn of phrase.(0942777075)
▪ Letter to The Times from climate scientists was drafted with the help of Greenpeace.(0872202064)
▪ Mann thinks he will contact BBC’s Richard Black to find out why another BBC journalist was allowed to publish a vaguely sceptical article.(1255352257)
▪ Kevin Trenberth says they can’t account for the lack of recent warming and that it is a travesty that they can’t.(1255352257)
▪ Tom Wigley says that Lindzen and Choi’s paper is crap.(1257532857)
▪ Tom Wigley says that von Storch is partly to blame for sceptic papers getting published at Climate Research. Says he encourages the publication of crap science. Says they should tell publisher that the journal is being used for misinformation. Says that whether this is true or not doesn’t matter. Says they need to get editorial board to resign. Says they need to get rid of von Storch too. (1051190249)
▪ Ben Santer says (presumably jokingly!) he’s “tempted, very tempted, to beat the crap” out of sceptic Pat Michaels. (1255100876)
▪ Mann tells Jones that it would be nice to ‘”contain” the putative Medieval Warm Period’. (1054736277)
“..Reagan was inspirational, but to claim he defeated Communism is a disservice to the millions of Eastern Europeans who struggled against great odds for their freedom.
The 20th anniversary of the 1989 Velvet Revolution that overthrew the Communist regime in Czechoslovakia was one of the most impressive civil insurrections in history.
It was not the military might of NATO, but the power of nonviolent action by ordinary citizens which brought down the system.
The popular uprising against the repressive system that had ruled their country for much of the previous four decades —
– along with comparable movements, which came to the fore that year in Poland, Hungary and East Germany —
– marks a great triumph of the human spirit.
These movements were largely led by democratic socialists who mobilized workers, church people, intellectuals, and others to face down the tanks with their bare hands.
Yet here in the United States, we are told that it was a result of President Reagan’s militarism .. and the supposed inherent superiority of capitalism.
It is this false narrative that has played such a major role in shifting discourse to the right in subsequent decades ..
.. and has been used to discredit those struggling for a more just and egalitarian economic system ..
.. and a more sane and less imperialistic foreign policy.
President Reagan’s verbal support for democracy had little credibility in many of these countries.
For example, while he denounced Poland’s martial law regime ..
.. he was a strong supporter of the more repressive martial law regime then in power in NATO ally Turkey ..
Latest Roy Morgan poll. Labour has gained 4 to 33% and National has lost 4 to 51%. The gap is still big but at this rate the parties ought to be level pegging by Christmas
The DomPost reports in its front pager: “Smith plays down $2 billion ETS windfall for Maori”
This incompetent minister is determined, hell-bent would be more appropriate, to pass this absurd piece of legislation where Parliament sits under urgency from tomorrow.
So much for debating a topic that would cost the country millions of dollars, impose higher taxes on all of us, and decrease international competitiveness, all in the name of an unproven theory.
It shows the current National government is not an iota better than the last socialist lot. Both parties (and their political allies) continue to betray the New Zealand public.
I notice that Stuff.co.nz hasn’t given airspace to the CRU Hack story. But we continue to get stories like ‘Circus Elephant to Retire’
Manolo – completely agree. The ETS is utter nonsense and should be abandoned immediately. Why are they doing this? What’s in it personally for Key and/or Smith?
The Henry versus Deans debate has died down a bit.
Pity about the quality rugby though, too many games, and playing for safety too much. I know there is a World Cup obsession but I’d put more importance on having a spectator sport for the other three years.
If RR wasn’t in office, and in his place was some hippy inbred liberal, then there is a good chance the western world would have been sold out to the wet-dreams of the incapable.
Looks like he helped us dodge a bullet, which would come back and hit us at a later date
“..# mike tan (65) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:02 am
If RR wasn’t in office, and in his place was some hippy inbred liberal, then there is a good chance the western world would have been sold out to the wet-dreams of the incapable..”
you mean..instead of the raging success/in-brilliant-condition..it is now..?
Actually Phil sometimes makes reasonable attempts to get varying discussions going, albeit sometimes indecipherable. It’s a pity his noise is amplified by his followers.
How about we all make a New Year’s Resolution (starting early, i.e. today), to ignore the guy.
I already filter out his posts quite automatically. The real damage is done when all the comments here pander to him. (And I can see the irony that I am doing just that now.)
Why don’t we all make this day one of the rest of our lives and forget about him forever?
I don’t think my advice would help because it seems very sensitive to the precise setup of the machine. I did it for an iMac with Mac OS 10.5.8, and Firefox 3.5.5. – and yet I could not get it to work on my Powerbook!!
Extract: Despite rhetoric to the contrary, domestic discretionary programs have not been growing rapidly. In fact, this is the only part of the budget where costs have been shrinking relative to the economy, which means these programs are not putting upward pressure on revenues.
By contrast, funding for defense and related areas has been growing far faster than any other part of the budget, much faster in fact than Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Moreover, defense remains the fastest growing area of the budget even if one excludes the costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the global war on terror.
Now of course, defence is woefully misnamed these days, but the point is that all the whinging in the US by the far right loonies about big government always misses the main point – that an obscene amount of money is spent on developing new weaponry to kill people rather than prioritise and spend the money on its own citizens.
I got out my HTML course book form a Community Education course I started a few years ago but couldn’t finish due to time constraints. But hey, it’s working! I’m learning HTML by doing! I’ll keep the book on my desk now and get my posts looking professional as well as stunningly insightful and rational!
PS don’t get to excited; baby had a big day yesterday so she is down for an early sleep. It’ll be back to the grindstone again for me soon
Not often I agree with the poster using the pseudonym ‘Luc Hansen’, but it is hard to countenance that level of spend on defense.
There’s clearly a ‘right’ level, which isn’t nil and isn’t gazillions.
As for any re-direction, I certainly wouldn’t spend it on ’social security’ which this simply creates debilitating ‘welfare dependency’. Research on disease eradication, yes. Improved energy technologies, yes. Improved food technology, yes. But welfare, no!
Tom, Ryan, I had some luck on another board using Remove It Permanently (a Firefox extension) but again it is fairly tricky.
Surprisingly I just went and had a look at their Wiki and someone has uploaded a ‘RIP’ for Kiwiblog! (And no it’s not me). See it on the ‘recent activity’ on the column on the right.
I haven’t tried it yet, but looking at the code, it looks like you replace ‘AnIdiot’ with whatever name you want.
Extract: “It, along with the rest of the email archive, makes an utter mockery of the alarmists’ claim that the science of global warming is settled in their favor.”
Now of course, Global Warming is woefully misnamed these days (http://www.climatecooling.org/), but the point is that all the alarmism by the troughing scientists who want to perpetuate the scam always misses the main point – that an obscene amount of money is sought to be stolen from taxpayers in all developed countries to fill the troughs of the politicians, scientists and AlGorean scammers rather than to actually do anything to help the environment.
If Al Gore and his ilk (including the thousands of politicians and their entourage who keep flying to big conferences like Copenhagen) really though AGW was such a threat they would never fly again. Every flight they take is proof that they don’t believe their own lies.
Tom, Ryan, etc, I just tried the kiwiblog RIP, and indeed it does work – put phil’s name in and it removed all his posts from my sight on the page. I don’t know whether I condone such a use – it’s like taking away someone’s free speech, but it’s there if someone wants to use it, i guess.
After Nick Smith’s bribery of Maori iwi and the passing of climate change legislation, you’ll see his boss Neville Key in the steps of Parliament piece of paper in hand exclaiming: “ETS in our time”.
An incredible political and economic blunder on the part of this inept National Party government.
LOL, Luc, as I said, I don’t know whether I condone such a thing, but I suppose if someone was getting right on your nerves or something. It does work though. I do wonder who wrote the RIP – it must have been a regular from here..
Angus [229] Can anyone doubt that these ‘warmists’ are pondscum? this is what happens when you assume that the end justifies the means. Right and wrong go out the window. White is black, or black is white. Whatever suppports their case on the day. In other words, they’re typical Socialists.
RightNow [442] So will any of these ‘warmists’ lose their jobs, or do some jail time for fraud? Or are they just going to get away with it as usual?
I followed you email link to stuff but changed the subject line to:
can you run a story on why the world has moved on from stolen and out of context emails except for the foolish few who wish to doom the world to a catastrophic fate?
Tom, Ryan, etc, I just tried the kiwiblog RIP, and indeed it does work – put phil’s name in and it removed all his posts from my sight on the page. I don’t know whether I condone such a use – it’s like taking away someone’s free speech, but it’s there if someone wants to use it, i guess.
It’s not taking away someone’s free speech. It’s an ignore function.
“Can someone please post on how to automatically filter out wanka-boy philu!”
This unmentionable person has a very distinctive typing style, quite recognisable – so just scim over it.
Note: you have not had to do that for quite a few posts now. QED.
You need to download an extension for Firefox (RIP). Just Google it. Once you have installed RIP, go to this website and download this file http://ripwiki.pbworks.com/f/kiwiblogcomment.rip. Open RIP Options by going to tools in Firefox and import the downloaded file. Edit the file by replacing the words “An Idiot” with Philu. Press ok. Done.
I strongly endorse the RIP solution for anyone running Firefox who really wants to be able to block comments by specific users.
Go here https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/521 and click the green Add to Firefox button and Install it now.
EDIT – the rest is as per Say Goodbye to Hollywood’s post above
Can’t just see a name and skip it eh? Kids these days, no discipline. Still, it would help me because then i wouldn’t have to read the comments of all the people who just write about philu.
RIP works for me too. For some reason Firefox would not re-start when I added the extension and I had to Force Quit. After that it was easy peasy, especially compared to the damned Greasemonkey script.
Fletch – thank you.
I don’t know whether I condone such a use – it’s like taking away someone’s free speech,
What Ryan said. It’s more akin to having a person removed from a debate after they’ve been doing nothing but talking over the top of you, ranting about their own obsessions or chanting in your face and taunting you merely to provoke.
Except that this removal does not require using the coercive power of the state, or even of the meeting organisers, or even gagging the person. One simply waves a wand, so to speak.
DJP – if you use the time when referring to other posts it’s easier to find them, the post count keeps changing for each post in a topic every time you post.
After what we have learned over the weekend (and in The Listener’s defence, since the mag went to press), I would suggest a small addition – should be:
Last Chance to Save Humanity from Agenda-Driven Zealots
Methinks The Listener should stick to fisking Witi Ihimaera, which it has done very successfully
I hardly ever agree with what Philu puts on this site, but to paraphrase Zola, I will defend to the death his right to post it, just as I will defend to the death anyone else’s right not to read it. However using filters to automatically block him out? That grates on me a little bit guys. That’s a little too much like Chinese Google! The more we are informed, the stronger we are. And if you think NOT being able to access information from people whose views you do not share is a good thing, would you like to have a debate on Global Warming today? I certainly would! Those hackers deserve every accolade possible!
“However using filters to automatically block him out?”
Yes. Like I block out the SS-T by not buying it, but not stopping anyone else from doing so.
“The more we are informed, the stronger we are.”
That’s the point. philu couldn’t inform anyone on anything, except perhaps on how to live a lifestyle of drug-atrophied indolence sponsored by the taxpayer.
RIP vs scrolling philu is no different to cutting out the ads with a TiVo (which I don’t have) vs fast forwarding the ads on a VCR (which I also don’t have). The same result, just less work.
Sorry philu, you’re stuffed now. Time to get a new username and change your writing style.
On sea level rise, an interview with Dr. Nils-Axel Mörner (the head of the Paleogeophysics and
Geodynamics department at Stockholm University in Sweden.He is past president (1999-2003)
of the INQUA Commission on Sea Level Changes and Coastal Evolution, and leader of the
Maldives Sea Level Project. Dr. Mörner has been studying the sea level and its effects on coastal
areas for some 35 years.)
In an interview with EIR he says there is no trend of sea level rise. http://www.climatecooling.org/globalcoolingdocuments/NilsAxelMornerinterview.pdf
“Tide gauging is very complicated, because it gives different answers for wherever you are in the world. But
we have to rely on geology when we interpret it. So, for example, those people in the IPCC [Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change], choose Hong Kong, which has six tide gauges, and they choose the record of
one, which gives 2.3 mm per year rise of sea level. Every geologist knows that that is a subsiding area. It’s the
compaction of sediment; it is the only record which you shouldn’t use.
And if that figure is correct, then Holland would not be subsiding, it would be uplifting.
And that is just ridiculous. Not even ignorance could be responsible for a thing like that.”
Also the document includes the infamous tree in the Maldives which showed no evidence of being swept away by rising sea levels: “A group of Australian global-warming advocates came along and pulled the tree down, destroying the evidence
that their “theory” was false.”
On sea level rise – great, a switch from yet another discussion on Phil to something new (not) a regurgitation of an old 2+ year old document on climate change, on something that has already been re-re-rehashed.
Right of Way: while I appreciate that blocking someone’s comments could be seen as not listening to all sides of the story, I know from my experience at KB that phlu doesn’t count in that regard. He has freedom of speech, and I’ve always had freedom to ignore him. I know from past experience that I have zero (or less) interest in anything he ever posts, so I’ve just made by ignore function more efficient. There are also economic considerations in that I won’t have to replace the scroll wheel in my mouse so often.
Well now that I’ve had my morning fun it’s back to proofing this damned history.
But before that starts……….
Getstaffed
As with anything that Luc puts up you need to check it yourself. Key points to note from his – ahem – argument:
1. Focuses on 2001 -2008. Clever. That means:
– the analysis starts from a record low in defense spending in 2000 – 3.6% of GDP, which is the only accurate way of measuring any
type of decadal government spending – arising from a decade of post-Cold War defense cuts. The GDP % of defense spending was
much higher in the past – I think it sat around 10% for most of the 1950’s and 60’s.
– it leaves out the whole TARP and Stimulus insanity engaged in by Bush, Obama and the Democratic Congress and Senate. Take a
look at the 2010FY.
2. It focuses on discretionary spending and then mixes Medicare/Medicaid into the discussion and even puts those in a table under such a heading. That’s so deceptive as to be a lie. In fact these are “mandatory” programs, meaning their growth is not subject to annual budget debates, and they’re the biggest programs and will grow more rapidly due to the way they are structured.
3. The whole thrust of this sort of analysis is the “fantastic spending on new weapons by a militaristic culture” – classic 60′-80’s left-wing arguments. In fact that ginormous defence outlay (and it’s growth) is the result of the creation of the new Department of Homeland Security (and yes that is a bureaucratic clusterfuck) and the usual spending on operations and pay. You can all have a look at the Defense Spending charts here – and that includes specific “new weapons” programs.
The RDT&E budget amounts to about $79 billion, and some new systems will be in the $104 billion procurement section – although even most of that is just buying standard stuff – MRE’s to toilet paper to bullets. Together that’s about 12% of this years SSC/Medicare/caid spending.
4. The key problem is that while “Defense” expenditures can get higher % increases at different periods (say after 3000 people are killed in a terrorist attack on the US), the mandatory programs have a steady growth rate that applies each year and every year. I assume people understand the impact of compound interest.
As a result Medicare/Medicaid has grown from a $1.5 billion a year when they were first introduced in the mid-60’s (say $10 billion/year in 2010 dollars) to where they are now. And since their growth is accelerating it’s those programs, plus Social Security. that will kill the US if something is not done soon.
It won’t be of course, not even by the Republicans, because they are entitlements that increasing chunks of the US population need to survive. They’re locked in, which was the intention of the most fanatical proponents all along. Maybe their growth will even force massive cuts in DOD one day – a win-win for the Luc’s of this world.
On sea level rise – great, a switch from yet another discussion on Phil to something new (not) a regurgitation of an old 2+ year old document on climate change, on something that has already been re-re-rehashed.
Well given that there is a bill before parliament which will substantially reduce New Zealander’s standard of living and transfer New Zealand’s wealth to third world thugocracies and the need for this is justified by claims the sea level is rising I would have thought discussion of this matter somewhat timely.
Indeed the supposed rise in sea levels are so small as to be indeterminate as to whether or not they are actually rising but that has not stopped the shouters from making absurd claims to the contrary in an attempt to panic our decision makers into ceding our sovereignty to international organizations
Titiwhai Harawira on Radio Live within the last hour says Sharples and Turia are more interested in the Baubles of Office than true representation of Maori. She says there has been no ETS consultation and she is one of the tribal shareholders.
How the media’s reports of Hone wanting to stay with the Party line up with his mother’s comments on Radio Live, is bit of a mystery
This is not very consistent. Key decides not to meet one largely irrelevant head of a church but he chooses to meet with another…
Prime Minister John Key will be the first leader to have a meeting with Queen Elizabeth at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (Chogm) this week.
I missed the finer details of a RNZ news report a few minutes ago, but the main point was that we are losing ice off our glaciers at a much faster rate than we are gaining. And this is the point that deniers fail to comprehend – that the effects of warming are not uniform or even consistent, except as a long term trend.
The report mentioned we have lost 50% of the ice from our glaciers over the sine the aerial survey of 50 glaciers commenced – I missed how long that period is.
NIWA said it fits with global warming expectations. As do reports of 1/1000 year flooding in England and record temps in Australia. Mayhem on opposite sides of the globe, and opposite weather events, fit the predictions of the IPCC.
Well Blip it looks like we have and 96% of people are reality based and the other 4% are you and a couple of other raving loonies. Why not form a political party… oh wait, you already have and Gentetix is your leader.
Hey Luc the Fox and Franz Joseph are growing at an unprecidented rate and the Tasman is only reducing because an earthquake diverted a river through it.
Luc – I recall in 1996 the Franz Josef glacier was visible from the church house for the first time in over 50 years. If it is retreating, it is going back to a status quo that was the case for most of last century.
In the Napoleonic Wars, the French government published a paper called the Bulletin. It published whatever the government wanted. Hence the phrase lying like a bulletin. With the revelations over the last few days, I suggest the phrase lying like a warmist should enter the modern lexicon.
Wow, phool, socialist arsehats spin their own failure and collusion with Communism as “seeing down the tanks?” Phenomenal. After all, we all know just how enamoured Western “intellectuals” were with Marxism. The idea scum like you are responsible for its overthrow is pretty much revisionism per excellence, and an excuse to rehabilitate that decrepit ideology, socialism.
In other news, the Conservatives in Britain are geniuses (genii?)
Indeed Murray – which makes one VERY suspicious in NIWA’s release of a story on glacier shrinkage today. Perhaps they’re trying to further distance themselves from Jim Salinger.
So are we really going to bankrupt the country for dodgy science put forward by people now shown to be corrupt? The government has to put the brakes on right now, while they still have the chance.
Looks like a gathering of closed minds getting a head of steam up!
A discussion here
Extract: A closed mind filters out and blocks off new or different ideas, information, and beliefs.
You mean like Global Warming proponents who seem unwilling to engage in any debate on the topic?
I’m sure Ive heard this line coming from many Global Warming fanatics “The time for debate is over” basically says there mind is closed to any debate doesnt it.
“..India has urged the West to give up eating beef .. to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions responsible for global warming.
The environment minister, Jairam Ramesh, said if the world abandoned beef consumption, emissions would be dramatically reduced ..
.. and global warming would slow down.
“The solution to cut emissions is to stop eating beef.
It leads to emission of methane which is 23 times more potent than carbon dioxide,” he said.
“The best thing for us, India, is we are not a beef-eating nation.
The United States, the world’s largest emitter along with China, is also the world’s greatest beef-eating nation ..
.. and consumes 25 per cent more than Europe.
His comments follow a call last month by Lord Stern, the author of a British Government study on climate change, for people to give up eating meay to reduce emissions.
“Meat is a wasteful use of water and creates a lot of greenhouse gases,” said Lord Stern.
“It puts enormous pressure on the world’s resources.
Re the melting Himalayan glaciers, I posted on this here the other day.
The quote I liked was this:
Other researchers and noted experts have raised their voices in support of Raina’s conclusions. According to Himalayan glacier specialist John “Jack” Shroder, the only possible conclusion is that IPCC’s Himalaya assessment got it “horribly wrong.” The University of Nebraska researcher adds, “They were too quick to jump to conclusions on too little data.”
The report itself can be found at (subscribers only):
No Sign Yet of Himalayan Meltdown, Indian Report Finds
Bagla
Science 13 November 2009: 924-925
DOI: 10.1126/science.326.5955.924
From Wikipedia: Science is the academic journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and is considered one of the world’s most prestigious scientific journals.
Which rather throws a light on this comment from IPCC author, Dr R K Pachauri:
When asked if the discussion paper could be taken into consideration in the on-going round of scientific review by IPCC, he said, “IPCC studies only peer-review science. Let someone publish the data in a decent credible publication. I am sure IPCC would then accept it, otherwise we can just throw it into the dustbin.”
The next time I read a copy of Science I’ll be sure to follow this advice. After all, thanks to reading those emails I now have a better understanding of exactly how peer-reviewed science is done nowadays!
It was not Phil’s ideas that got most people’s back up but the whole approach towards – well everything really. I don’t think it’s a good idea to ignore Luc and Pete as we need them here to as modern examples of this:
There were earnest advocates of the humane killing of cattle who looked up at the massive headquarters of the OGPU with tears of gratitude in their eyes, earnest advocates of proportional representation who eagerly assented when the necessity for a Dictatorship of the Proletariat was explained to them, earnest clergymen who walked reverently through anti-God museums and reverently turned over the pages of atheistic literature, earnest pacifists who watched delightedly tanks rattle across Red Square and bombing planes darken the sky, earnest town-planning specialists who stood outside over-crowded, ramshackle tenements and muttered: ‘If only we had something like this in England!’
That’s Malcolm Muggeridge, writing of his fellow travellers as a reporter in the USSR in the 1930’s.
What I especially appreciated was another comment he made on this, to the effect that the credulity of these people, astonished even hardened Soviet officials.
As I have just argued over at the Fairfacts Media Show, Rodney Hide should stand on the steps of parliament and cite the emails as causing sufficient doubt on the whole AGW religion.
New Zealand should then halt its ETS and further consider the issue.
That just might get the story on the front pages and leading the tv news.
You read me wrong Tom. I’ve stirred up the climate here at times, it’s easy to get bites, but it doesn’t mean I avidly believe in everything I post. I resisted posting the glacier item today because I didn’t want GB to switch from an extended comment on one poster to another “discussion” where no one seems to take any notice of views that differ from their own. Climate seemed like fun for a while but it gets tedious.
If you have read what I’ve said you would know that I have concerns about climate but I’m not committed either way, I don’t know enough. And I am dubious about carbon trading and taxing as being effective ways to deal with trying to reduce emissions – which regardless of climate issues is a reasonable aim. So I am not promoting anything regarding climate except for discussion (seems to be futile) and keeping an open mind.
BTW, the glacier thing proves nothing, far to short and small an example. And in any case, if the climate warms it could end up resulting in more snow so increasing glacier size, depending on how high the average freezing level went.
BTW2, the email/data release adds something to the debate but it is far from a “that proves all climate science is totally wrong” situation.
National have been handed on a plate an excuse to withdraw from an unpopular policy that I am sure they are regretting – and they choose not to take it. Not only that, but the fiercest critic of the scheme in parliament signs up to it in the face of ever increasing evidence and opposition.
What is wrong with them?
“There is a colossal scandal erupting in the blogosphere, and in the better media.
Someone, probably an insider offended by what he saw was going on, leaked a
large volume of emails from within the global warming priesthood centred within the
Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, UK.
These show a pattern of manipulation, suppression and selection of data and
evidence all designed to create and maintain the global warming myth.
So now we know – Global Warming is man-made after all – it is created by a small
group of dedicated believers posing as scientists using manufactured data, selected
statistics, dodgy computer models and “mates reviewed” papers.”
Oh dear; how sad; never mind. What say you Phillip Ure? Your silence on this issue today has been deafening …eh..?
Strictly from a policy perspective, I think the inherent problem with an ETS system is that is actually has to be coordinated on a massive international scale. If you can’t get that coordination, then differences in timing and inclusion of industries, will just redistribute production from some parts of the world to others. We have less cows, France has more cows, GHG emissions rise or stay the same.
A carbon tax system avoids this coordination problem, and can be offset by taxes on other inputs (labour, capital etc). That way you could implement it in a way that would be fiscally neutral.
There are also a lot of no-regrets policies that seem to be consistently overlooked. The global energy subsidy is difficult to estimate, but ballpark figures (UNEP) are around $300 bn a year. This is money that governments are paying their citizens to burn fossil fuels and generate GHG gases. I haven’t checked deforestation subsidies recently, but these are also immense (and last time I looked, a similar scale to the energy subsidies).
Back to the old adage, any politician who wants to be a politician is a bad choice for a politician.
We’ve elected a bunch of cowards.
As my wife and I determined last week, the only way not to be a net victim is to get a place at the trough.
Now where can I find a developing country that has stunning climate, lax immigration laws and low taxes.
“..Now where can I find a developing country that has stunning climate, lax immigration laws and low taxes…”
um..!..new zealand..?
NZ hardly has a stunning climate – unless you like huge variations everywhere, and huge variations in some places on the same day. I generally don’t mind the weather, but I wouldn’t call it stunning.
Immigration has it’s flaws but I don’t think it’s that easy.
A carbon tax system avoids this coordination problem, and can be offset by taxes on other inputs (labour, capital etc). That way you could implement it in a way that would be fiscally neutral.
Whoops, I meant tax reductions on other inputs. The point being though, is that you escape the financial liabilities that are ‘risked’ with an ETS.
Plus getting rid of existing GHG distortions (fuel subsidies, farming subsidies, deforestation subsidies) should be much higher on the international ‘menu of choices’.
I think the inherent problem with an ETS system is that is actually has to be coordinated on a massive international scale
Chthoniid – It’s not so much the co-ordination, it’s that politicians are not to be trusted with other’s money. Not a local level – witness rates rises outstripping inflation for generations. Not at a national level – witness successive governments buying their re-election, and National today horse-trading with the racist Maori party just to get the ETS enacted here.
Can you imagine the corruption that will transact at a global level once the power-hungry psychopaths at the UN (and all aspiring national-level psychopaths) get their hands on the income generated from my labour?
I repeat: Key needs to show the ETS cost benefit to NZ in black in white. Yesterday. He’s failed to do that, so I want to know what’s in it for him and/or Smith?
Manolo – Yes it was a joke. It’s how (I imagine) Key sees himself.
It’s hard enough getting an ETS or tax agreement in a small country like NZ, it’s going to be more difficult if not impossible in the US. Getting the whole world to come to agreement is not looking like a good bet, I think the odds of NZ winning the football world cup are much better.
I like RIP too, it’s enhanced by being able to tell when a post has been omitted because the usual alternating grey and white comment backgrounds are out of sequence.
Time for the Mid-Afternoon Idiocy Digest. Here’s a mid-20s Marxist idiot getting big ideas about himself and his fellow do-gooders.
Some social commentators have placed this burgeoning carbon movement in the same bracket as earlier social movements populated by young people. They say the Sixties was the anti-war decade; the Seventies saw marches against racism at home and apartheid abroad; if it’s the Eighties it must be Ban the Bomb and Maggie Out!; the Nineties was roads and anti-globalisation; and the Noughties, this decade, is about climate change. We’ll soon be on to something else, right?
Wrong. We’re not the Noughties. This isn’t the next fad. The naive popular narrative that “every generation has their thing” and that climate is ours – that we’re the “Facebook generation” – simply does not hold. This isn’t about being disaffected and rebellious without a cause. This isn’t about dropping out, rejecting the norm, culture jamming and hacking the system. This isn’t even about altruism. It’s not just about defending the rights and lives of those who are less fortunate than us, and it certainly isn’t about polar bears. This is about us. For the millennial generation the patronising cliches fall apart, because this isn’t about ideals so much as hard science and the terrifying reality that what the scientists have been warning us all about for years – those sea level rises, catastrophic droughts and melting ice caps – will now happen in our lifetimes.
Maybe him and Phool could team up and get run over by an A380.
I see you boys willfully ignore the relevance to the warming crisis evident in the Herald article.
This year’s snowline was, on average, 95 metres above where it needed to be to keep the ice mass constant, Niwa said.
Over the past 33 years, there had been an overall decrease in the glacier mass balance, despite periods where the balance had increased for a few years.
I used the word “crisis” quite deliberately because there is no credible debate about global warming except amongst fringe scientists, knee jerk contrarians and outright loonies.
The email thing is just a passing dustcloud. There is no point in posting the rebuttals because the deniers amongst you have closed their minds anyway.
And before the usual kneejerk chorusyour the one with the closed mind! appears, as I have often said, I hope the science is barking up the wrong tree, but it doesn’t look like it and I am not willing to take the chance and pass on anymore of a disaster to following generations than what we have already created.
I agree getstaffed- we have the minor example in NZ between the previous Government and the Kyoto Forest Owners sustained spat over the carbon credits as an instance of a political ‘grab’. Scale that up to the global level- and – shudder.
“No captain can do much wrong who puts his ship along side that of an enemy”
Nelson
“It takes three years to build a ship and three hundred years to build a tradition”
Cunnigham
What the hell happened to the navy that pulled us out of Crete under the Luftwaffes total air command and sailed into neutral waters to storm the Altmark and take the prisoners off?
Rocking horse shit, faires and royal navy intestianal fortitude. Apparently you can end a tradition in three years as well.
Hurf, he’s the invisible fart in the room and we’re now on the other side of the window. We can see everyone’s noses wrinkling but can only infer why. I love RIP
Where’s Phillip Ure gone? I mean, it’s not as though he has to work or anything. Could it be that he’s feeling betrayed at the revelations that the AGW Zealots lied and cheated all these years?
And I just can’t resist the temptation to post this bit again – I sense we will see this quoted frequently over the coming days and weeks:
“So now we know – Global Warming is man-made after all – it is created by a small
group of dedicated believers posing as scientists using manufactured data, selected
statistics, dodgy computer models and “mates reviewed” papers.”
Pete Goerge: “It’s hard enough getting an ETS or tax agreement in a small country like NZ, it’s going to be more difficult if not impossible in the US. Getting the whole world to come to agreement is not looking like a good bet.”
Yep, like . . .
“India has urged the West to give up eating beef to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions responsible for global warming.
The United States, the world’s largest emitter along with China, is also the world’s greatest beef-eating nation and consumes 25 per cent more than Europe.”
Meanwhile, India is the nation with the largest number of cattle, about 281,700,000 or 28.29% of the world cattle population [estimated to be about 1.3 billion]. The United States: 96,669,000, 34.32% of India’s total, 9.71% of world cattle population.
So India has 2.9 times [very near three times] the number of cattle as does the USA, and do Indian cows live longer because they aren’t killed and eaten?
Why are New Zealand politicians locking us into an ETS when the rest of the world is eons away from agreeing on anything, and leaked emails are indicating GW may be exaggerated anyway to benefit researchers and other interested parties?
Feeding baby and putting her to sleep, guys. You know what they say, a Daddy’s work is never done. Then I foolishly poke my head in here and see all this noise…ah well.
Tom, when you post stuff in support of the deniers, you could also post the rebuttal and save me the work.
In particular, maybe you could have a look for the satellite pics mentioned in the report. They are bound to be around somewhere.
I bet those IPCC bullshitters are filling their pants, what a pack of diseased lying maggots. Is it any wonder these bastards are in such a hurry to have all the punters sign on the dotted line. And Shonkey and his idiot sidekick Smith need a good arse kicking, what the fuck is wrong with these two bobs?. Bloody Shonkey is no better then that nasty piece of work he has replaced, what a disappointment the yellow bellies in the Nats are. They don’t give a stuff about what this will do to the country they are in it for themselves as middlemen who must collect the cash and no doubt will charge a rather large handling fee, socialist bastards!!!!!!!!!!
hurf, big bruv (very Orwellian), murray, ssb, RB (when he or she appears) etc…is this like looking into a mirror?
Closed minds use hostility, prejudice, indifference, and inattention to keep new or different ideas from gaining a foothold. Closed minds stand in the way of learning and change.
LATEST: A deal between National and the Maori Party to push emissions trading scheme legislation through Parliament under urgency this week will see 8000 extra low income households insulated and a windfall for some Maori foresters.
I really don’t like this buying of votes. But I guess this is what we will see all over the world. Favoured participants will benefit, and the emissions will keep on flowing.
I used the word “crisis” quite deliberately because there is no credible debate about global warming except amongst fringe scientists, knee jerk contrarians and outright loonies.
The poster cowering behind the pseudonym ‘Luc Hansen’ is once again deliberately disingenuous. Or downright dishonest.
Madam Speaker, before voting on the “cap-and-trade” legislation, my colleagues should consider the views expressed in the following petition that has been signed by 31,478 American scientists:
“We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.
There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.”
Circulated through the mail by a distinguished group of American physical scientists and supported by a definitive review of the peer-reviewed scientific literature, this may be the strongest and most widely supported statement on this subject that has been made by the scientific community. A state-by-state listing of the signers, which include 9,029 men and women with PhD degrees, a listing of their academic specialties, and a peer-reviewed summary of the science on this subject are available at http://www.petitionproject.org.
How low can Key and his political allies and stooges go? They are about to pass the ETS legislation along racial lines, in other words bribing and favouring Maori, and buying the votes of the Maori Party.
ACT has also being neutered/spayed and seems to go along with this farce. How low can be sink?
Look on the bright side, if the left think the hacked/leaked (doesn’t matter) Hadley CRU emails are a non-event
Does that mean we can get Don Brash back as National Party leader?
“That so many people are sucked in by this scam is tragic.”
A little like Paul’s theology and thought being mistaken as that of Jesus. Apart from whether the original was valid, the emphasis has been a shift that has lasted nearly two thousand years.
Better luck with the GW spin.
See. Here’s fun. Luc “Fisk-me” Hansen is back with no counter arguments about his true beliefs (for which AGW is merely a cover), just the same dewy-eyed view of another lumbering global bureaucratic monster – with even a flavour of scientific inevitability thrown in.
And now referring to the Guardian I see – vs the magazine Science. Right. I thought Luc was into “peer reviewed articles”. In what now appears to be his SOP, he did not read my link, which is not solely to the “Government report”, nor just the one scientist. I covered all this in my link two days ago – including most of the same “rebuttals, including that deeply scientific word – “arrogant”.
This is not quite as poor as the “rebuttal” Luc made the other day – to a story completely different to the one I’d posted about, nor the woeful ignorance of the Crusades and Jihad that FE Smith showed him up on, nor even those three soundbites early last month that I wasted time on finding specific rebuttals, to which Luc’s response was a weak-ass you’re entitled to your opinions…..
It’s typical that Luc so often demands respectful, civil responses – while at the same time not even respecting his opponents enough to read their material. Well, of course Luc does not, given the mindset that we’re all just ignorant, stupid, evil people and therefore not worthy of much effort.
All Luc does is thrust an aging, wizened hand into a grab-bag full of decades-old leftist boilerplate turds, apply a quick spray job of post-modernistic tripe, dump it here, and then walk away from the glittering object.
Here’s a hint – if I do want to debate left-wing thoughts I’ll stick with Ryan Sproull. Unlike you he appears to be thoughtful, serious, respectful even when he’s under attack (I even remember Redbaiter apologising to him once), and somewhat skeptical even of his own ideology.
By contrast I saw Luc referring to The Nation the other day and it reminded me of the famous quote from Ms Manhattan Left-wing Intellectual herself – Susan Sontag:
”Imagine, if you will, someone who read only the Reader’s Digest between 1950 and 1970, and someone in the same period who read only The Nation or The New Statesman. Which reader would have been better informed about the realities of Communism? The answer, I think, should give us pause. Can it be that our enemies were right?’
What should be noted is that it never gave Luc and his comrades a moment’s pause, nor does it to this day.
But that’s the hard-left Stalinists – it’s expected of them. The real problem was always less with them than the “moderate centre-left” (or “Ceriums” as I call them now). You can just imagine trying to regale a room full of such people in the 1970’s or 80’s with some story about the USSR that had been obtained from the Readers Digest. The stunned silence, the rolling eyes, the hilarity, the guffaws, “Who farted?”, more chuckles. Perhaps the less mocking and more earnest would have muttered something about a CIA Propaganda rag” (partially true actually!!)
The thing is that I’d be willing to bet that this bunch still think more highly of The Nation than of the low-brow <Readers Digest, as they do of virtually everything that might appeal to the hoi poloi. No wonder the working classes abandoned them.
Luc, give it up man
The battle for the blogosphere in the Climate Fraud war is over
Look at the comments on any mainstream news site (even left wing ones)
They are generally 90%+ skeptical
Now, the battle will soon move in to the mainstream media
It’ll all be over in a couple of years, Mark my words
How will it feel to be the last man to post comments in support of history’s ever largest scam?
Look at the comments on any mainstream news site (even left wing ones)
They are generally 90%+ skeptical
Now, the battle will soon move in to the mainstream media
It’ll all be over in a couple of years, Mark my words
Fortunately, President Paul was never fooled in the first place!
Sonny said “Ask the Indians.” So I did. Here is their answer.
Extract: Glaciologist from Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi, Rajesh Kumar says, “This increased melt rate/descent is largely due to warming up, thanks to the emission of green house gases. But increased human interference is also not a good sign for the glacier’s health. Earlier, there were nine tributaries to the Gangotri glacier. Now we are left with five.”
But I suppose he is just a scummy lying Indian, right?
What tribe did John No Balls Key father belong to? Fly the flag. Bring on civil war says this WHITE MOTHER FUCKER !!!! Lock and load white boys.
What a sick fucked up country.
If I blow the crap out of a Maori Flag with my Mossberg, will the bent authorities turn a blind eye like they did to that idiot Maori with silly tough stickers all over his face when he let go with a shotgun in a public place?
I have long thought you are a nutter , I have often made allowances for your obvious deranged mental state but your post at 6.11pm just cannot go without comment.
I have read some hateful stuff on the blogs but nowhere have I ever read anybody calling for a race war, not even John Harawira has gone that far.
You are nothing more than a racist cunt D4J, those Kiwiblog commentators who were quick to condemn Harawira should be just as quick to condemn you.
IMHO. your 6.11pm post is deserved of a lifetime ban.
Boy the MSM are a bunch of AGW arse licking mouthpieces. Lead story breathlessly being reported by government payed lackeys was about NZ’s shrinking glaciers, you can see the fear in these pricks eyes. Someone from upstairs must have put the order out to run some propaganda least the peasants have caught wind of the lies being spun by the IPCC. Oh and no mention of the emails from the bullshitters, just old Shonkey and his idiot sidekick selling our country out, socialist bastards!!!!!!.
Tom said Besides, your probably just envious after eating so much Crow
Tom, I can’t defend the rhetorical flourish that was out by just a few centuries, my point was still valid, although I received then a different perspective (from chthoniid, from memory) that was most helpful. But I recognise very few other so called corrections that, do in fact, so often come down to a matter of opinion (and yours was in that category), of world view. So let’s move on. Especially, let’s move on from the personal abuse.
As regards abuse, I’m no saint, but I think I do pretty well compared to some others on here. Less obsessing on personalities of people you don’t even know (and I’m generalising here, not pointing at you) and more discussion of facts is always helpful.
All a race war would do is make everyone abandon New Zealand for good. It will do nothing to make anyone better off, apart from the weapons manufacturers in the US, Russia, France and UK. And there will be no chance of anyone coming back from Australia.
A race war is not want what I want, however I would like to have a face to face with such a coward as yourself.
Come on blouse show some guts and name time and place? See if so lippy in person? Yeah right, haha.
So as the CRU story unfolds, we see the climate ’scientists’ (aka scammers) in serious spin mode trying to explain their dodgy email comments.
But, and it’s a BIG but, the software code doesn’t lie. Code junkies have started sifting thru the code and there are comments and code steps there that prove the hockey-stock chart was being fabricated.
Remember, this is the chart that launched a thousand carbon traders [wet]dreams and is the cornerstone of the alarmist claim that we’re wrecking the planet with every breath (or CO2).
An 18-year-old woman broke down briefly as she told a jury she had not intended to kill retired Opotiki school teacher John Rowe, only to knock him out so she could look around his bedroom for items to steal.
“I never wanted him to die. I thought he would wake up the next morning and have a sore head,” Courtney Churchward said in the High Court at Rotorua today.
Churchward and a 15-year-old girl whose name is suppressed are on trial for murdering 78-year-old Mr Rowe at his Opotiki home on November 25 last year.
To her counsel Paul Mabey QC, Churchward said she had been knocked out several times by her ex-partner, Nga Falani, and had always woken 10 or 15 minutes later, usually with a lump on her head.
She said Falani had attacked her at different times with a golf club, the blunt side of a knife, his fists and beer bottles.
Questioned about how she came to be at Mr Rowe’s home with her co-accused, she said they had gone there to find either cannabis or things to steal so they could buy cannabis.
Both had taken sticks from the lounge into the bedroom where they believed Mr Rower might have valuables. She had hit him so he would “blank out”. She said Mr Rowe appeared strong because she had not knocked him out when she struck him around the face and nose.
She flicked the bedroom light on and off and became scared when she saw blood on his face.
“He was still trying to get up. I just ran away, I saw scared, I panicked.”
In the lounge the pair turned over a television and armchair to make it look as if the house had been trashed. She admitted to Mr Mabey they had taken a wallet with cash in it and a radio from the lounge.
She had attempted to call 111 but Mr Rowe’s phone was not working.
She had also pushed a medic alarm system in the lounge but believed it had not worked because she pushed the cancel button rather than the emergency button.
When she found out the following day Mr Rowe was dead she was surprised.
———————————————————————————————————————————————–
Put your hand up if you think the above is “manslaughter”
I understand your anger D4J…I sometimes wonder where the fuck this country is going …I think back to the 81 springbox tour and people protesting about how fucked up South Africa was…and now we are going down the same track of apartied…I dunno… I just scratch my head. I know that its 50% of the reason my family and I are leaving for asia …turning my back on the country I was born in..and I wont be looking back.
Personally, i think that it is murder and the book needs to be thrown
Unfortunatley, their defense team are well aware of the joke that our legal system is, and are exploiting it by advising their client to talk all this rubbish
Tell you what, if you want to break into someones bedroom, savagely beat their head to a pulp using a weapon , and then say that you “didnt want him to die” expecting sympathy from the public/jury, then you deserve life + extra 10 years for assuming we are all as thick, primitive and stupid as you are.
God bless USA, atleast they (generally) dont buy all this bullshit, and they have no problem calling a spade a spade
You called me a thug big blouse and wanting a race war. Wrong on both counts as I visit Canterbury Prisons every weekend and talk with Maori and white inmates about responsibility in the community. Judges, cops and screws don’t think I am a thug, so we have meeting so I can show you who I am. My name is Peter, what’s your handle yellowback backstabber?
Put your hand up if you think the above is “manslaughter”
murder son…pure and simple…and the 2 little cunts that carried out this attack need to be dragged out behind the haybarn and given one copperhead each to the back of the head.
If they are serving on a murder trial jury then you can guarantee they are either thick, unemployed and/or public servants.
Nobody with real life experience can afford to be away from work for the length of time, this is why we see people like David Bain walk free.
I have been called for jury service many times, I always turn up as I see it to be part of my civic duty, and, to be honest the chance to make sure that at least one or two cases that week are about justice and not our fucked up legal system.
However,there is a limit, I make a deal with myself, if I was unlucky enough to be called to serve and the trial was scheduled to last longer than one week then I would tell whatever lies I needed to tell so I was excused, I simply cannot afford it.
I’m sick and tired of reading about the abuse of funds from pokie machines. Why is it that those responsible for distributing the money are so often exposed for bending the rules, abusing their trust or outright theft?
Actually I agree. But take away the bit about pokies and he’s describing – quite accurately – socialist government tax collection and re-distribution. I’m sure he still supports that!
The fact that you visit prisons is symptomatic of all that is wrong with our justice system, you have a temper that you cannot control yet you “talk with Maori and white inmates about responsibility in the community”
You would be the LAST person who should be talking to these people.
And yes, you did bloody well call for a race war D4J, the fact that you now regret saying so is not my problem, accept what you said and either apologise and retract it, or shut the fuck up.
NZ sending Maori to Copengahen as found in The Herald: Roger Pikia and Chris Karamea Insley to go to Copenhagen as part of New Zealand’s official delegation.
Dr Smith said he made no apology for the decision, saying the two Maori men had relevant experience.
NZ is completely fucked for continuing these race-based policies. Tokenism of the highest order. And we all pay for this madness.
The sad thing is, the jurors will probably consider that our innocent victim was an old man, and therefore he didn’t have too many years to go, and the defendant is a teenager, who still has her whole life ahead of her, and therefore conclude that the law should favor the defendant. They will consider that she was just “looking for weed”, and it was a tragic end to an episode of childish stupidity
Nonsense obviously, the fact that the victim was an old man, and that it was an aggrivated robbery, should be enough for the condemned to be put away forever. The fact that defendant is young doesn’t make any difference, as the age of reason iyounger than that. The fact that the defendant was probably abused by (insert abuser here), makes no difference, as myself, and many other people have experienced abuse, in some cases extensive, but none of us managed to go and kill a poor old man in his own home, its because we are human, and civilised, unlike the defendant, who, by exposing their savage capability, has proven beyond any doubt that they are and will always be a major threat to society
To even search for reasons for compassionate treatment of the defendants is a major disrespect to Mr Rowe, the Rowe family, and many, many New Zealanders who expect the justice system , to be just that, a justice system.
Before you left wing, criminal defending , mass murder promoting, libbies attack me by saying that im describing a “guilty until proven inncoent” system , let me clarify that the defendant(s) are considered guilty only if there is there is credible evidence proving beyond any doubt that they are solely responsible. Admission is enough for me
Dr Smith said he made no apology for the decision, saying the two Maori men had relevant experience.
What is the relevant experience required for attending a Climate Change Talkfest?
My guess it is flying business class and staying in nice hotels on someone else’s dime, talking the talk while achieving nothing of significance.
In other words troughing which appears to be the only growth industry in New zealand.
And after all why not – only a mug would consider spending years of their life building up a dairy herd only to see the fruits of the labour disappear into the bottomless pit of taxes, ACC levies and Carbon offsets
Just an aside to Pete George – I’m well aware that this does not “prove” AGW does not exist – hardly a surprise when it does not appear to be falsifiable.
My point is that this is yet another example of a hyped up piece of interesting but very focused research, where the caveats and uncertainties and constraints of the original material magically vanish when massaged through the politicised arms of the IPCC. A process immensely enhanced if there is only a small group of self-referential people leading the final writeup and amplified by a media operating on the “if it bleeds, it leads” mode.
You might be surprised to know that I am not, and never have been, as dismissive of AGW as you imagine. Given my science background and my long-held interest in astronomy l knew about greenhouse gas effects on planets a good 20 years before the phrase began to trip off the tongues of luddites like the Greens. Because I’ve long followed the sad, winding path of NASA I still remember reading James Hansen’s original testimony on this topic in 1988.
I am not even that surprised at the vitriolic stew of the CRU group. Such feuds are famous in the history of science. Darwin referred to Lord Kelvin as “that odious spectre”. It’s just that our vastly more communicative world has delivered far greater power to such groups and the ripple effects are more immediate -as long as they can keep control of the message. That should be a concern to scientists, except that we now live in a world where “everything is political”, especially the narrative, which appears to have overrun the science.
# getstaffed (4250) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
From Minto:
I’m sick and tired of reading about the abuse of funds from pokie machines. Why is it that those responsible for distributing the money are so often exposed for bending the rules, abusing their trust or outright theft?
Actually I agree. But take away the bit about pokies and he’s describing – quite accurately – socialist government tax collection and re-distribution. I’m sure he still supports that!
*********************************************************************************
Can you name one country in the OECD that doesn’t support THAT ?
Thanks Tom, yeah, it’s easy to fall into the trap of lumping posters together, it’s easy to forget who post valid question marks and who don’t seem to see anything but one side of the argument. There is a lot of science out there, all imperfect to varying degrees, ditto scientists, too much to ignore but too imprecise to take as gospel either way.
There is far too much science for me to make any sort of strong argument on, it’s easy to pick a few bits out to “prove” a point but it rarely does. Single point arguments are pretty futile, they get nowhere and if they did they wouldn’t prove much at all apart from an isolated issue.
I know an Environmental Economist in Europe, I try to get ideas from him but at that level it’s too heavy going for me. I just don’t have the time or inclination to suss it all out properly.
It is premature to say the email release signals the death knell for climate change, just as it is far too soon to know how much if anything of a real problem we face.
I have pretty much come to the conclusion at the moment that I can’t see a snowball’s chance in next century’s Arctic summer of anything being agreed on worldwide to address anything anyway. Too bad if the problem does snowball.
From a historical perspective, indeed the USA is the bastion of economic freedom, however in recent times, it is not, as evidenced by the blanketed communism sweeping the nation
Tom Hunter said… I thought Luc was into “peer reviewed articles”. In what now appears to be his SOP, he did not read my link, which is not solely to the “Government report”, nor just the one scientist.
Tom, you’re wasting your time with Lucy Hansen. She doesn’t & cannot understand reading “scientific peer review articles”. All she does is making piss-take comments and not putting forward a counter-argument to defend his positions. The best you can do is to ignore Lucy or otherwise, you can advise her that she does belong in the idiot-blogs like Capitalism Bad and Hand Mirror.
And while I’m putting my head above the parapet I’ll call this crap too, this looks to be sick as, or maybe just pathetic bravado. Condoning this sort of thing through silence is worrying, but that tends to happen here. Or there could be a reasonable explanation?
# starboard at 7:10 pm
murder son…pure and simple…and the 2 little cunts that carried out this attack need to be dragged out behind the haybarn and given one copperhead each to the back of the head.
Ok d4j. It’s one of the potential pitfalls of typed comments – you may be thinking of something one way, someone takes it another and you don’t see the immediate reaction so you can qualify. It can be easy to polarise without body language.
Pete George? Where’s Pete George? He hasn’t been here all day. It’s refreshing not to hear his “moderate” whining.
Speaking of left-wing killjoys, here’s a bunch of war crimes lawyers looking at videogames and finding that – shock horror! – by and large they allow for the mass breaking of international humanitarian law and that these evil sprites are never taken to account for it. I mean, for fuck’s sake. I hope this shit didn’t get state funding.
Mike, what the hell are you talking about? Are you suggesting that because you may not agree with some things I post I shouldn’t criticise anyone? I think I have copped enough criticism here to have a few credits up my sleeve.
Pete, being a critic is a world away from merely “calling bullshit” on something, it is carefully analyzing the situation, variables and outcomes and expressing a differing point of view, clearly expressing your reasoning
This year you have taken my favourite male actor, Patrick Swayze. You also took my favourite female actor, Farrah Fawcett Major and my favourite entertainer and dancer, Michael Jackson.
I want to be sure you know that Hone Harawera is my favorite politician.
I still don’t know where you’re coming from Mike. I didn’t think starboard’s comments needed deep analysis. If no one spoke against vigilante justice some nutter could think it is ok to try it. If we headed in that direction we would be in a sorry state.
Its pretty clear that bruv was using vigilante justice as an example for his advocation of use of the death penalty, where applicable. Your opposition clearly displays that you are against the death penalty, so perhaps you could give those of us who cannot comprehend how one can defend the right of life of a murderer, clearly ignoring the selfish removal of this right from the innocent victim, so that we could attempt to understand your position.
Do you support the idea of a safe, civilised society heavily insulated from predators who threaten the lives of the innocent?
A civilised society doesn’t take people behind the barn and shoot them.
I’m against the death penalty generally but I wouldn’t rule it out completely.
Being silent about neanderthal bravado can give tacit support to it. Silent support could easily lead to a young man going stupid outside a tavern and clocking someone, stuffing his life and ending another, all done in a few seconds. Could easily happen, couldn’t it?
“If no one spoke against vigilante justice some nutter could think it is ok to try it. If we headed in that direction we would be in a sorry state.”
Not true, if one was going to commit murder via vigilante justice, he or she would do so regardless of whether or not people said it was wrong. Someone who needs someone else to tell them whether murder is right or wrong is doomed regardless of the content of any input from anyone.
Stop moving the posts, im clearly referring to the death penalty as a tool of justice, not citizens commiting murder by taking the law into their own hands.
You say your against it but you wouldn’t rule it out completely, wouldn’t it have to be across the board for all crimes involving murder in order to mantain consistency and equal justice for all ?
You clearly misintepret my position to be one of defending the actions which starboard suggested. I am talking in the context of starboard revealing his advocacy for the death penalty as a tool of justice, albeit inefficiently.
Tom’s post November 23rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm leaves me a little bewildered. I have now got the time to try and decipher his point.
I admit I’m struggling, and am tempted to think he just aims to throw mud at whatever I post – just a little obsession he seems to have developed recently .
First, he compares apples with oranges by mentioning defense spending as a proportion of GDP when the article I linked to focused on defense as a proportion total domestic spending, discretionary and mandatory. I’m sure the same analysis can be done using GDP as the basis, and the outcome would still come up to make the same point, but it’s a completely different analysis.
This chart shows defense spending as a proportion of GDP 1940-2003, if that is what turns you on. Understandably, it show a sharp increase after 9/11. But 9/11 is not the whole story.
Furthermore, the article, in Table 3 (Chart 1 on the pdf version available at a mouse click), makes it clear that for the purposes of analysis it totals all domestic spending and calculates proportions from that base. Both specifically mention “Other mandatory programs.”
I don’t know what Tom’s problem is with that.
The main point of the article is: The defense/security category also has grown four times as rapidly as all domestic programs combined — a category that includes Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the other entitlements, and the domestic discretionary programs.
Fisk away, Tom, but you are just muddying quite clear analysis.
And I am afraid this from Tom is just nonsense: 2. It focuses on discretionary spending and then mixes Medicare/Medicaid into the discussion and even puts those in a table under such a heading. That’s so deceptive as to be a lie. In fact these are “mandatory” programs, meaning their growth is not subject to annual budget debates, and they’re the biggest programs and will grow more rapidly due to the way they are structured.
Tom is just obfuscating again, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume he is looking for any way to attack me (although it’s not my analysis!).
The whole point of the article is that defense spending continued to grow at a much higher rate than other domestic program spending items.
But this is Tom’s real point, the driver of his aggro: The whole thrust of this sort of analysis is the “fantastic spending on new weapons by a militaristic culture” – classic 60′-80’s left-wing arguments.
And of course he draws in 9/11.
His argument fails because it is just risible to think that the most powerful, by far, nation in the world actually needs to keep up that fantastic level of spending to defend its borders. In fact, it does it for the opposite reason, and then deludes itself about the motivation by invoking “defense.”
Meanwhile, the middle class have not have a real pay rise since the start of the Clinton era; millions either can’t afford or can’t get health insurance to ensure their survival from eminently survivable injuries and ailments, and millions languish in (admittedly relative) poverty. The rest they just lock up at three times the rate of their latest existential threat (yeah, right) Iran.
The good news is that Tom’s Wikipedia (let’s ignore that I get dumped on for wiki links) link shows defense spending finally decreasing as a percentage of total domestic spending.
And I am not a peacenik on military spending. I have said here before that I consider we are free loading off our allies (mainly Australia) and friends (mainly USA) and we need to pull our weight more. Maybe not the latest fighter jets, but certainly a greatly expanded army and navy, if only for the threat we may face when AGW really kicks in in those faraway nations. Just ask any refugee: desperation is a great reducer of distance!
There have been angry scenes at the court appearance of a man accused of murdering a Bay of Plenty school principal.
Twenty-one-year old Isaiah Tai allegedly killed Hawea Vercoe outside a Whakatane bar early on Sunday morning.
Vercoe, 36, a school principal of nearby Rotoiti, died after he was apparently punched to the ground outside the Quart House bar on The Strand, about 2.30am.
Possibly prior tacit approval of violence, probably booze, plus bravado, perhaps one punch of stupidity, combined perhaps with a bit of bad luck for both.
I am writing to respectfully request that you step in to delay the passing of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill.
In addition, in order to prevent Labour’s existing emissions trading scheme (ETS) from taking effect from January 1st 2010, I further request that you take up ACT’s offer of support and pass an amendment to the existing legislation to delay the commencement date until at least 2011.
Prime Minister, the reason for making these requests is to prevent you and your party from making what many believe is a serious mistake. As political commentator Matthew Hooton warned, “The government is heading towards its first major train wreck as it negotiates with iwi players in a last-ditch effort to secure Maori party support to ram through its harebrained emissions trading scheme (ETS). Only intervention by the Prime Minister … will prevent it.”[1]
The point is that your party told the public of New Zealand that your ETS had to be rushed through the Parliamentary process ahead of December’s climate change meeting in Copenhagen. It was claimed that having an ETS in place would strengthen our negotiating position regarding a replacement for the Kyoto Protocol. For the record, New Zealand has an ETS on the statute books. It was put there by Labour – and it will stay there until it is repealed.
Prime Minister, you have now advised the country that no successor to the Kyoto Protocol will be signed in Copenhagen next month. That means there is now no urgency over the ETS and no justification at all for rushing it through Parliament. It is clearly time to slow down and take stock. Given the parlous state of the New Zealand economy, prudence, not haste, is called for.
Prime Minister, your government should put your ETS on hold and refrain from any further action on climate change policy until you have carefully assessed the outcome of the Copenhagen meeting. This is especially important given that the rest of the world appears to be moving away from the concept of binding agreements like the Kyoto Protocol, which have been seen to not only fail to effectively reduce emissions, but to have imposed unacceptable cost burdens on economies.
That is why ideas like the concept of ‘national schedules’, being promoted by Australia and the United States – whereby countries are able to nominate achievable domestic mitigation targets that will not cripple their economies – are gaining traction as a more appropriate way forward once the Kyoto Protocol expires in 2012.[2]
In light of these developments, Prime Minister, if you continue with your plan to rush your ETS through ahead of the Copenhagen meeting, you would be breaching your duty of care by saddling New Zealanders with an enormously costly scheme that may be due to be phased out. If there is no commitment to carry on with Kyoto-type binding agreements after 2012, then the whole international emissions trading regime will collapse. There can be no doubt about that.
Just think of the implications the collapse of the ETS would have for the business sector. You, Prime Minister, would have compelled them to put their scarce resources into paying a carbon tax and complying with your grand scheme – a scheme that will undoubtedly cost the country thousands of jobs and cause a massive loss of wealth as manufacturers and investors move offshore. Surely this is a risk your government cannot afford to take.
Then there is the impact on your personal reputation. Do you realise, Prime Minister, that you are the only ‘conservative’ leader who, as the Wall St Journal describes it, is “pushing centrally-planned economies in the name of saving the earth.”[3] Do you really want this to be your legacy?
While activist organisations like Greenpeace can be expected to lobby for central planning and higher taxes, New Zealanders are not fixated by such acts of faith and will bitterly oppose your ETS when they realise the true cost of what they are having to pay. Even though your bill includes a subsidy to shield voters from much of the cost until after the next election, power and fuel prices will still rise, and they will push up the cost of goods and services across the board, putting upward pressure on inflation, and driving up interest rates and the exchange rate. Then how will the public be able to trust your commitment to catch Australia by 2025, when they see that it is your ETS that is dragging the economy down?
Prime Minister, a major justification given for rushing through the ETS is the need to align our scheme with Australia so that “neither country should seek to gain a competitive advantage by taking a softer line on carbon emissions.”[4] However, with public opposition to their scheme mounting, there is no guarantee that Australia’s ETS will be passed into law. That would mean that in spite of any agreements, if New Zealand introduces an ETS and Australia doesn’t, there will be a swift and disastrous (for New Zealand) exodus of Kiwi businesses across the Tasman. Further, given that Australia is proposing national schedules as the sensible way forward for Copenhagen, passing your ETS before you know what Australia is going to do is an extremely reckless course of action.
Then, there is the disturbing spectre of secret race-based deals to buy Maori Party support for the Bill. While the full details are not available, it appears that five iwi will be given thousands of hectares of conservation land to “lease” in perpetuity, for zero rental, with taxpayers being expected to front up to pay for the land to be planted in trees while the iwi will reap the benefits of harvesting the wood and selling the carbon credits![1]
What makes this deal even more obnoxious is the fact that it appears to be based on a claim by Ngai Tahu that the Crown withheld material information on the ETS and its potential impact on their forestry settlements during their Treaty of Waitangi negotiations. However, advice from Crown Law clearly disavows that notion: “there is no evidence of a breach of the Crown’s obligation under the deed of settlement”.[5] In light of this, your move to effectively privatise conservation land by gifting it to iwi – without any consultation with the public that own the DoC estate – will be totally repugnant to the vast majority of New Zealanders.
All in all, Prime Minister, the National Party is virtually standing alone regarding your ill-advised ETS. Your allies are nothing more than companions of convenience: green activists, a few iwi who are going to receive massive windfall gains, the Maori Party who can notch up yet another race-based “win” at the expense of New Zealand taxpayers, and government bureaucrats who will no doubt be pressuring you to go ahead and pass the bill. They, no doubt, are also ensuring that you are insulated from information they don’t want you to see.
For instance, Prime Minister, have you been briefed on the work of Professor Ian Plimer of Adelaide University, author of the best-selling book Heaven and Earth: Climate change – the real science? In his NZCPR article Occam’s Razor, Professor Plimer describes how the earth’s climate is constantly changing, and how the premise that underpins the ETS – that increases in man-made carbon dioxide are causing catastrophic global warming – are wrong. As he explains, “Atmospheric temperature has been decreasing in the 21st Century despite an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide. The [IPCC] climate models show that temperature should have been increasing in the 21st Century. This disconnect shows that carbon dioxide does not drive temperature and that models of very complex chaotic natural systems should be viewed with great caution.”
Professor Plimer continues, “Despite the 21st Century decrease in global temperature, we are perpetually warned of dangerous global warming. The proposition that climate should not change is absurd. This can only be promoted if all history, archaeology, geology, astronomy and solar physics are ignored – yet these are ignored in climate models. In effect, we are suffering climate wars with one group heroically using incomplete computer models to make predictions and another group using natural science.”
He concludes, “If an extraordinary claim is made, then extraordinary evidence must be given in support. This has not been done. Those who argue that human emissions of carbon dioxide change climate must demonstrate that changes observed today are not natural. This has not been done.”
Professor Plimer then turns his attention to emissions trading schemes: “Political decisions regarding emissions trading have had neither scientific nor financial due diligence. The major source of information derives from a political body, the IPCC, and some climate centres, such as the Hadley Centre, even refuse to release taxpayer-funded primary data for re-evaluation.” To read Professor Plimer’s full commentary, please click the sidebar link>>>
Prime Minister, these criticisms about a lack of due diligence are valid for National’s ETS. The emissions trading review select committee expressly ruled out any investigation of the science underpinning the ETS, and without a comprehensive regulatory impact analysis having been produced by your government, proper financial analysis has not been possible. This has been a major concern of Treasury and many of the submitters to the Bill, and has now led to claims that the cost of your ETS could reach $100 billion over time.
In his article, Professor Plimer mentions the IPCC (the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) – which we have been told is your government’s primary source of information on climate change – and the UK based Hadley Centre, which has provided much of the data for IPCC reports.
Well Prime Minister, I am wondering whether you have been briefed on the major scandal (dubbed “Climategate”) that has enveloped the Hadley Centre (University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit) over the last few days, whereby 61 megabites of hacked data and emails has been posted on the internet. This information appears to show unequivocally “that scientists manipulated data to bolster their argument that global warming is genuine and is being caused by human actions.”[6] If the picture of scientists falsifying the data for IPCC reports is found to be correct – and the damning emails certainly appear to be genuine – then the underlying rationale for the ETS, the Kyoto Protocol, and all other global warming based policies, will be seen to be baseless at best, and fraudulent at worst.
So, Prime Minister, on behalf of those New Zealanders who are extremely concerned about the future ramifications of imposing an ETS now, please step in and put the scheme on hold until after Copenhagen, when you will be better informed about the future direction of international climate change agreements and the best way forward for New Zealand.
I appreciate you taking the time to read this letter.
# Falafulu Fisi (337) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Tom Hunter said…
I thought Luc was into “peer reviewed articles”. In what now appears to be his SOP, he did not read my link, which is not solely to the “Government report”, nor just the one scientist.
Tom, you’re wasting your time with Lucy Hansen. She doesn’t & cannot understand reading “scientific peer review articles”. All she does is making piss-take comments and not putting forward a counter-argument to defend his positions. The best you can do is to ignore Lucy or otherwise, you can advise her that she does belong in the idiot-blogs like Capitalism Bad and Hand Mirror.
***************************************
So, obviously, do all the governments of the OECD and most of the world with some sort of domestic law and order.
The consequences are that the justice system uses mental illness as a reason for the defendant to avoid jail, expecting the hospitals to risk the lives of their own staff to ensure that society is safe. If the system considered that one must be mentally ill to kill another, regardless of any external matter, then it would realise that it is an infact an injustice of epic proportion , to send a defendant to hospital under the context of mental illness.
Personally i believe that it is likely that people who suffer legitimate, severe mental illness reach the only peace they have ever experienced when they pass away. Ofcourse it is not up to the state to make the decision, until the day that an innocent persons life has been lost as a result of the persons actions.
The victim was a innocent man who longed to live the end of his life in the company of his loved ones, but instead spent it in a isolated moment of unimaginable fear and pain. That many struggle to remember or even consider this, is a tragedy of equal proportion to the one that took the victims life.
What a wonderful day. Delirium dances alone, Luc pukes quietly and the magpie has finally been silenced. Perhaps it is the majesty of technology that provides for such wonder. The same technology that allows us to see climate scientists as the lying collectivists that they are, that allows us to organise protest marches against decrepit Gween laws, that when even ten years, the left-leaning media shut conservatives out of the mainstream conversation, we fight back with blogs and informed opinion while the audience for newspapers, television and radio continues to plummet like a stone.
We now have a voice against Greenpeace, against the Weatherman Underground, against the duplicitous bastards who control academia, the civil service, the unions and the media in the most sinister Gramscian manner and who seek our very destruction in the name of a guilt-ridden utopia. I feel tjat this is a good moment with which to mark this thousandth post on. To fighting the good fight, gentlemen. And it is this fight that perhaps needs to be elucidated to smooth movers like John Key and David Cameron.
It is hardly surprising that this rebellion is now spreading to other local Conservative associations such as Central Suffolk, where there is similar resentment that well-qualified local candidates are being banned because they don’t conform to the fashionable ‘Notting Hill’ image.
People are desperate for an alternative to Labour. But they want an alternative to its cynicism, dishonesty and contempt for the bedrock values of this country.
Yet in so many ways the Cameroons merely promise more of the same. Where they do acknowledge unfashionable concerns such as mass immigration, the ‘ human rights’ farce or the loss of sovereignty to the EU, they merely come up with half-baked fudges which will change virtually nothing.
They bang on about ending ‘big state’ government or welfare dependency – yet they refuse to countenance any root-and-branch change to the centralised NHS or education system or the welfare state.
What people are looking for, above all, is a politician they can trust because he is consistent and transparent and they feel they know where they are with him.
Instead, Cameron has left himself open to the charge that he is a PR man in search of the better soundbite, tailoring his message to whatever the last focus group has told him.
The mistake he has made is to fail to grasp that the country turned against the Tories in the Nineties not because voters wanted a PC agenda, but because they thought the party was sleazy and incompetent.
In an interview with “Hospodářské noviny,” a Czech economics daily, Klaus made the following observations: Global warming is a false myth and every serious person and scientist says so. It is not fair to refer to the U.N. panel. IPCC is not a scientific institution: it’s a political body, a sort of non-government organization of green flavor. It’s neither a forum of neutral scientists nor a balanced group of scientists. These people are politicized scientists who arrive there with a one-sided opinion and a one-sided assignment.
+India, +China. +Others(which I can’t be bothered looking up)
The supporting politicians (not scientists… politicians who have a terminal self-interest) come from governments that have become increasingly socialist over recent years. No longer satisfied with the level of power & influence wielded domestically, each politicians envisages an altogether larger, more luxurious UN trough to ascend to.
I came back. Sorry. But someone has to tell the truth.
As regards India this http://www.envfor.nic.in/cc/cop8/moefbk.htm will tell the story that getstaffed is getdeluded…it is the website of Government for India: Environment and Forests (envfor).
I’m loving watching the smarter former-communist countries wholeheartedly reject socialism, embrace personal effort & enterprise, and grow their standard of living as a result.
By contrast we’ve become so lazy, so what-can-the-govt-do-for-me that I wonder if we’ll ever pull out of the our relentless drive down the OECD rankings.
I’m expecting our resident hand-wringing liberals start to applaud this decline soon, spinning it as a move towards a fairer society as we all become impoverished together. Go figure.
getstaffed said I’m loving watching the smarter former-communist countries wholeheartedly reject socialism, embrace personal effort & enterprise, and grow their standard of living as a result.
For example? And can we have actual per capita income as well as per capita income growth, please, in US $?
Hey Hurf, you said “The same technology that allows us to see climate scientists as the lying collectivists that they are…”
I remember your mate Roger Kerr writing about the enemies of capitalism, one was collectivism. Trouble is, Mr Kerr, as CEO of the Business Roundtable, is employed by a collective!
Thing is, for myself, I love capitalism! It has made me a lot of money!
A link to ONE department of the Indian government – Environment & Forests, who are really driving the economy.
A link to some PR website set up by the Chinese government (smart move)
An outraged letter to the Guardian from the leader of the all-powerful Czech Green Party.
How about this instead – from July this year in the London Times:
China and India are understood to have blocked any mention of the target in the draft communiqué, insisting that the developed economies should promise to cut their own emissions sharply by 2020 before asking developing nations to commit to a long term target
Oh well. Better luck with smashing capitalism next time. Though I don’t fancy Luc’s chances with the two largest countries in the world barrelling down that route now.
Tom, he’s devious (‘I asked which government denied‘) and dishonest (Pretends to post under his real name while mocking others’ use of a pseudonym). He must be a climate scientist.
If Maoris feel sold out by their Party on ETS, how do New Zealanders feel about Key deciding on his own to raise the Maori flag in government buildings and on his own front lawn?
It has taken a moment for him to sell cheaply a sovereign principle it has taken Maoris a century to achieve and Conservatives to preserve.
I don’t think he knows the magnitude of what he’s done!
Being silent about neanderthal bravado can give tacit support to it.
And while I’m putting my head above the parapet I’ll call this crap too
ah yes..Pete George..the great apologist ..I know you would take the two murderers aside , sit them down have a chat , try and point out the error of their ways..give them another chance…give them a hug…put them back into society quick smart…but you have forgotten one thing mr george…the victim , yes I know its a dirty word victim..your sort make me puke george. I stand by my original statement..one copperhead each.
I’m not apologising for anything. You don’t know me, and have no bloody idea what I would do. I prefer decent justice, not cowboy justice.
Your suggested approach would do nothing for the victim.
There is a good reason our justice system has evolved to where it is now. Retribution and lynch mob mentality create more injustices than they solve. Our current justice system can no doubt be improved, but that is not by going back to the Dark Ages and beyond. Most of us have become civilised.
Chicken Little – the 1000 year flood observation interested me. Is the measurement damage caused, or rainfall recorded?
The former is changed by better river management (landscaping, stop banks etc) and improved housing/roading, while the latter is at the mercy of consistent recording methods.
Or, more likely, it’s an alarmist stab at some comparison to ensure AGW headlines are created.
Yeah I know getstaffed I was going to take the piss out of luc if he/she answered. Its seems luc is a bit of a driveby commentor though. Maybe I’ll catch up with him/her today.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:02 am
Some topics inside the leaked global warming emails:
▪ Michael Mann discusses how to destroy a journal that has published sceptic papers.(1047388489)
▪ Tim Osborn discusses how data are truncated to stop an apparent cooling trend showing up in the results (0939154709). Analysis of impact here. Wow!
▪ Phil Jones describes the death of sceptic, John Daly, as “cheering news”.
▪ Phil Jones encourages colleagues to delete information subject to FoI request.(1212063122)
▪ Phil Jones says he has use Mann’s “Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series”…to hide the decline”. Real Climate says “hiding” was an unfortunate turn of phrase.(0942777075)
▪ Letter to The Times from climate scientists was drafted with the help of Greenpeace.(0872202064)
▪ Mann thinks he will contact BBC’s Richard Black to find out why another BBC journalist was allowed to publish a vaguely sceptical article.(1255352257)
▪ Kevin Trenberth says they can’t account for the lack of recent warming and that it is a travesty that they can’t.(1255352257)
▪ Tom Wigley says that Lindzen and Choi’s paper is crap.(1257532857)
▪ Tom Wigley says that von Storch is partly to blame for sceptic papers getting published at Climate Research. Says he encourages the publication of crap science. Says they should tell publisher that the journal is being used for misinformation. Says that whether this is true or not doesn’t matter. Says they need to get editorial board to resign. Says they need to get rid of von Storch too. (1051190249)
▪ Ben Santer says (presumably jokingly!) he’s “tempted, very tempted, to beat the crap” out of sceptic Pat Michaels. (1255100876)
▪ Mann tells Jones that it would be nice to ‘”contain” the putative Medieval Warm Period’. (1054736277)
HT: http://www.tbr.cc
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:10 am
(apologies for the destruction of one of your rightwing myths..)
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/reagan-didnt-end-the-cold-war-leftist-intellectuals-did/
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 am
Latest Roy Morgan poll. Labour has gained 4 to 33% and National has lost 4 to 51%. The gap is still big but at this rate the parties ought to be level pegging by Christmas
End of the honeymoon?
; )
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:12 am
911 – terrorists or Bush? You be the judge.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:14 am
The DomPost reports in its front pager: “Smith plays down $2 billion ETS windfall for Maori”
This incompetent minister is determined, hell-bent would be more appropriate, to pass this absurd piece of legislation where Parliament sits under urgency from tomorrow.
So much for debating a topic that would cost the country millions of dollars, impose higher taxes on all of us, and decrease international competitiveness, all in the name of an unproven theory.
It shows the current National government is not an iota better than the last socialist lot. Both parties (and their political allies) continue to betray the New Zealand public.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:23 am
I like pie.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:34 am
I notice that Stuff.co.nz hasn’t given airspace to the CRU Hack story. But we continue to get stories like ‘Circus Elephant to Retire’
Manolo – completely agree. The ETS is utter nonsense and should be abandoned immediately. Why are they doing this? What’s in it personally for Key and/or Smith?
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:43 am
The Henry versus Deans debate has died down a bit.
Pity about the quality rugby though, too many games, and playing for safety too much. I know there is a World Cup obsession but I’d put more importance on having a spectator sport for the other three years.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:52 am
Stolen goods, perhaps.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:52 am
A nice sunny Monday morning. And what do you know, that useless POS Philu is up and wrecking Kiwiblog already…..
Philu – dont think you are getting to me, you are not, jsut wished to point out that you mission of fucking this blog is not working…
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:53 am
Im suprised your up so early phool, did you have to catch your dealer before he headed up north for the day?
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:02 am
If RR wasn’t in office, and in his place was some hippy inbred liberal, then there is a good chance the western world would have been sold out to the wet-dreams of the incapable.
Looks like he helped us dodge a bullet, which would come back and hit us at a later date
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:03 am
“..did you have to catch your dealer before he headed up north for the day?..”
nah..!..some sit-ups/some yoga..
and a big bunch of news-stories..
(twenty-one..so far..)
http://whoar.co.nz/
( i quite like the one about ‘big-ears’ grooming ‘noddy’..who was ‘a rent boy’..(!)..)
who knew..?)
and the two pieces from jeremey clarkson are a good read..
one on lesbian dads.. and a review of the new landrover discovery..(‘the murderers’ car’..)
(seeing as you asked..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:05 am
It’s rather sickening watching this deranged mental cot case phool drag this blog down to Wublic Dress and Standard Sewer level.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:09 am
“..# mike tan (65) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:02 am
If RR wasn’t in office, and in his place was some hippy inbred liberal, then there is a good chance the western world would have been sold out to the wet-dreams of the incapable..”
you mean..instead of the raging success/in-brilliant-condition..it is now..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:09 am
…along with those who follow him down??
Actually Phil sometimes makes reasonable attempts to get varying discussions going, albeit sometimes indecipherable. It’s a pity his noise is amplified by his followers.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:13 am
and tan..
you really do seem to be missing the big arse-fucking irony here..eh..?
that the home of capitalism is fucken broke/up to its’ eyes in debt..
($12 trillion..and 40 cents in every dollar to service that debt..)
..to a communist country..
..a communist country..
.that is on track..
to be the next global superpower..?
does that give you pause for thought at all..?
or is your denial as deep as it is wide..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:17 am
“It’s rather sickening watching this deranged mental cot case phool drag this blog down to Wublic Dress and Standard Sewer level.”
Is it beyond you people to just ignore him? Don’t give him the oxygen.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:19 am
How about we all make a New Year’s Resolution (starting early, i.e. today), to ignore the guy.
I already filter out his posts quite automatically. The real damage is done when all the comments here pander to him. (And I can see the irony that I am doing just that now.)
Why don’t we all make this day one of the rest of our lives and forget about him forever?
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:23 am
“..jsut wished to point out that you mission of fucking this blog is not working…..”
do you often have waves of paranoia washing over you..
whafe..?
(are you like redbaiter..?
do you check under your bed every night..?
..for ‘reds’..?
(hang on..!..i have to go..!..the v.l.w.c.h.q is beeping me..!)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:25 am
“..Why don’t we all make this day one of the rest of our lives..”
very existential of you there..colonel..
you could whack that one on a t-shirt..
(totally meaningless..but hey..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:32 am
Can someone please post on how to automatically filter out wanka-boy philu!
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:38 am
Swiftman
Repton has a greasemonkey script to do it. But it requires a bit of fiddling.
Until then you’re stuck with the scroll button.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:38 am
easy peasy
don’t visit Kiwiblog
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:41 am
Tom, have you managed to get that going? Could you tell me how? I used Repton’s script, but had no luck.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:43 am
Sorry. Philwho?
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:49 am
Ryan
I don’t think my advice would help because it seems very sensitive to the precise setup of the machine. I did it for an iMac with Mac OS 10.5.8, and Firefox 3.5.5. – and yet I could not get it to work on my Powerbook!!
In any case, the scroll button works okay.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:51 am
some interesting information on the US government spending here:
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=125
Extract: Despite rhetoric to the contrary, domestic discretionary programs have not been growing rapidly. In fact, this is the only part of the budget where costs have been shrinking relative to the economy, which means these programs are not putting upward pressure on revenues.
By contrast, funding for defense and related areas has been growing far faster than any other part of the budget, much faster in fact than Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Moreover, defense remains the fastest growing area of the budget even if one excludes the costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the global war on terror.
Now of course, defence is woefully misnamed these days, but the point is that all the whinging in the US by the far right loonies about big government always misses the main point – that an obscene amount of money is spent on developing new weaponry to kill people rather than prioritise and spend the money on its own citizens.
It’s all a bit tragic, really.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:59 am
Woohoo!!
I got out my HTML course book form a Community Education course I started a few years ago but couldn’t finish due to time constraints. But hey, it’s working! I’m learning HTML by doing! I’ll keep the book on my desk now and get my posts looking professional as well as stunningly insightful and rational!
PS don’t get to excited; baby had a big day yesterday so she is down for an early sleep. It’ll be back to the grindstone again for me soon
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:01 am
Not often I agree with the poster using the pseudonym ‘Luc Hansen’, but it is hard to countenance that level of spend on defense.
There’s clearly a ‘right’ level, which isn’t nil and isn’t gazillions.
As for any re-direction, I certainly wouldn’t spend it on ’social security’ which this simply creates debilitating ‘welfare dependency’. Research on disease eradication, yes. Improved energy technologies, yes. Improved food technology, yes. But welfare, no!
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:02 am
are you moaners going to do/say anything else..except moan..?
i am waiting for the pearls of wisdom/insight you obviously have prepared..
well?..
(leans forward..chin on hands..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:04 am
Tom, Ryan, I had some luck on another board using Remove It Permanently (a Firefox extension) but again it is fairly tricky.
Surprisingly I just went and had a look at their Wiki and someone has uploaded a ‘RIP’ for Kiwiblog! (And no it’s not me).
See it on the ‘recent activity’ on the column on the right.
I haven’t tried it yet, but looking at the code, it looks like you replace ‘AnIdiot’ with whatever name you want.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:05 am
some interesting information on the climate scammers trying to cover their tracks here:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/11/024995.php
Extract: “It, along with the rest of the email archive, makes an utter mockery of the alarmists’ claim that the science of global warming is settled in their favor.”
Now of course, Global Warming is woefully misnamed these days (http://www.climatecooling.org/), but the point is that all the alarmism by the troughing scientists who want to perpetuate the scam always misses the main point – that an obscene amount of money is sought to be stolen from taxpayers in all developed countries to fill the troughs of the politicians, scientists and AlGorean scammers rather than to actually do anything to help the environment.
If Al Gore and his ilk (including the thousands of politicians and their entourage who keep flying to big conferences like Copenhagen) really though AGW was such a threat they would never fly again. Every flight they take is proof that they don’t believe their own lies.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:06 am
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:10 am
Tom, Ryan, etc, I just tried the kiwiblog RIP, and indeed it does work – put phil’s name in and it removed all his posts from my sight on the page. I don’t know whether I condone such a use – it’s like taking away someone’s free speech, but it’s there if someone wants to use it, i guess.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:11 am
After Nick Smith’s bribery of Maori iwi and the passing of climate change legislation, you’ll see his boss Neville Key in the steps of Parliament piece of paper in hand exclaiming: “ETS in our time”.
An incredible political and economic blunder on the part of this inept National Party government.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:12 am
Fletch:great, just wipe out alternative points of view. Isn’t that a bit incestuous?
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:16 am
LOL, Luc, as I said, I don’t know whether I condone such a thing, but I suppose if someone was getting right on your nerves or something. It does work though. I do wonder who wrote the RIP – it must have been a regular from here..
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:19 am
Why hasn’t Fairfax run the Climategate story? Ask them by clicking here and hitting send. Job done. (or just email newstips@stuff.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:26 am
Fletch, it works.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
The Battle of the Political Hotties is shaping up!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10610977
This will be interesting as Jacinda Ardern is a bright, intelligent woman with huge potential for the Labour Party. Should be a good match up.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:28 am
Ryan, yep, it does indeed.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:29 am
Angus [229] Can anyone doubt that these ‘warmists’ are pondscum? this is what happens when you assume that the end justifies the means. Right and wrong go out the window. White is black, or black is white. Whatever suppports their case on the day. In other words, they’re typical Socialists.
RightNow [442] So will any of these ‘warmists’ lose their jobs, or do some jail time for fraud? Or are they just going to get away with it as usual?
cheers
David Prosser
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:29 am
Another “rogue poll” perhaps Mickey?
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:33 am
Wow, Monday mornings have never felt so good, thanks RIP!
David Prosser, I have an inkling that down the track some of these guys are going to be cast as scapegoats and possibly receive a wet bus ticketing.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:34 am
Yvette 9.17 and the Colonel 9.19…
Right, we ignore this deranged cacophony. Soon it will be just a background drone, then a gradually dying hum.
I hereby lower the lid on Philu – Philip Man-Ure.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:37 am
XChequer, it could be a ‘temporary blip’, which is apparently the new explanation for Labour not winning in 2008:
Mr Twyford, the party’s Auckland Issues spokesman, said he believed Waitakere should be a Labour seat and its loss was a “temporary blip”. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10610977
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:44 am
getstaffed
I followed you email link to stuff but changed the subject line to:
can you run a story on why the world has moved on from stolen and out of context emails except for the foolish few who wish to doom the world to a catastrophic fate?
OK?
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:44 am
It’s not taking away someone’s free speech. It’s an ignore function.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:46 am
“Can someone please post on how to automatically filter out wanka-boy philu!”
This unmentionable person has a very distinctive typing style, quite recognisable – so just scim over it.
Note: you have not had to do that for quite a few posts now. QED.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:49 am
A lucky escape for New Zealand
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10611048
Thank you, Australia, for keeping this scumbag (emoticon for thumbs up)
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:52 am
Cheers Fletch, that RIP extension works a treat. Goodbye Philu, no longer will I have to scroll through your shit. Christmas came early.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:56 am
Re Lucy Hansen’s 9.38 “don’t visit Kiwblog”.
Not only is Lucy a constructed synthetic poster, she’s a saboteur synthetic poster — the instrument of a group of idle lefties.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:57 am
Yvette
You need to download an extension for Firefox (RIP). Just Google it. Once you have installed RIP, go to this website and download this file http://ripwiki.pbworks.com/f/kiwiblogcomment.rip. Open RIP Options by going to tools in Firefox and import the downloaded file. Edit the file by replacing the words “An Idiot” with Philu. Press ok. Done.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:59 am
I strongly endorse the RIP solution for anyone running Firefox who really wants to be able to block comments by specific users.
Go here https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/521 and click the green Add to Firefox button and Install it now.
EDIT – the rest is as per Say Goodbye to Hollywood’s post above
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:59 am
what would happen if i did it too..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:02 am
Fletch. You are a fucken genius ! It works !
Not one iota of philu’s mad gibberish to be found.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
Can’t just see a name and skip it eh? Kids these days, no discipline. Still, it would help me because then i wouldn’t have to read the comments of all the people who just write about philu.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
@Jack5
Well thank you for the compliment.
I have always wanted to be a guerilla
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:07 am
Wooo Hoooo
RIP works for me too. For some reason Firefox would not re-start when I added the extension and I had to Force Quit. After that it was easy peasy, especially compared to the damned Greasemonkey script.
Fletch – thank you.
What Ryan said. It’s more akin to having a person removed from a debate after they’ve been doing nothing but talking over the top of you, ranting about their own obsessions or chanting in your face and taunting you merely to provoke.
Except that this removal does not require using the coercive power of the state, or even of the meeting organisers, or even gagging the person. One simply waves a wand, so to speak.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:09 am
LOL, thanks Angus, Tom. I didn’t write it though.
The code was submitted to the Wiki by someone called ‘dc’.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:12 am
Fletch
You deserve to have the largest Karma EVAH today.
Or there’s no justice in this world.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:16 am
RightNow [445] Yeah, I think that’s the worst that will happen to them until the boss starts asking questions they can’t fudge, or lie about.
cheers
David Prosser
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
DJP – if you use the time when referring to other posts it’s easier to find them, the post count keeps changing for each post in a topic every time you post.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
“what would happen if i did it too..?”
this must be a new thing for you Phool ?…..( asking what are the consequences before you do something)
look at the upside, if they cant see you you’ll get less neg karma
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
Hmm, might have to see if there is something like this for Opera.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
The Listener’s lead story this week:
Last Chance to Save Humanity
After what we have learned over the weekend (and in The Listener’s defence, since the mag went to press), I would suggest a small addition – should be:
Last Chance to Save Humanity from Agenda-Driven Zealots
Methinks The Listener should stick to fisking Witi Ihimaera, which it has done very successfully
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
I hardly ever agree with what Philu puts on this site, but to paraphrase Zola, I will defend to the death his right to post it, just as I will defend to the death anyone else’s right not to read it. However using filters to automatically block him out? That grates on me a little bit guys. That’s a little too much like Chinese Google! The more we are informed, the stronger we are. And if you think NOT being able to access information from people whose views you do not share is a good thing, would you like to have a debate on Global Warming today? I certainly would! Those hackers deserve every accolade possible!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:55 am
Right of Way,
Chinese Google is enforced. This is an option.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
Looks like a gathering of closed minds getting a head of steam up!
A discussion here
Extract: A closed mind filters out and blocks off new or different ideas, information, and beliefs.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:01 pm
“However using filters to automatically block him out?”
Yes. Like I block out the SS-T by not buying it, but not stopping anyone else from doing so.
“The more we are informed, the stronger we are.”
That’s the point. philu couldn’t inform anyone on anything, except perhaps on how to live a lifestyle of drug-atrophied indolence sponsored by the taxpayer.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Is there any point to turning the General debate thread into a discussion of Phil Ure day after day.
If there is it escapes me entirely – I find it rather boring to tell the truth
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
RIP vs scrolling philu is no different to cutting out the ads with a TiVo (which I don’t have) vs fast forwarding the ads on a VCR (which I also don’t have). The same result, just less work.
Sorry philu, you’re stuffed now. Time to get a new username and change your writing style.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
On sea level rise, an interview with Dr. Nils-Axel Mörner (the head of the Paleogeophysics and
Geodynamics department at Stockholm University in Sweden.He is past president (1999-2003)
of the INQUA Commission on Sea Level Changes and Coastal Evolution, and leader of the
Maldives Sea Level Project. Dr. Mörner has been studying the sea level and its effects on coastal
areas for some 35 years.)
In an interview with EIR he says there is no trend of sea level rise. http://www.climatecooling.org/globalcoolingdocuments/NilsAxelMornerinterview.pdf
“Tide gauging is very complicated, because it gives different answers for wherever you are in the world. But
we have to rely on geology when we interpret it. So, for example, those people in the IPCC [Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change], choose Hong Kong, which has six tide gauges, and they choose the record of
one, which gives 2.3 mm per year rise of sea level. Every geologist knows that that is a subsiding area. It’s the
compaction of sediment; it is the only record which you shouldn’t use.
And if that figure is correct, then Holland would not be subsiding, it would be uplifting.
And that is just ridiculous. Not even ignorance could be responsible for a thing like that.”
Also the document includes the infamous tree in the Maldives which showed no evidence of being swept away by rising sea levels: “A group of Australian global-warming advocates came along and pulled the tree down, destroying the evidence
that their “theory” was false.”
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
@ Luc Hansen 10:49
“A lucky escape for New Zealand
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10611048
Thank you, Australia, for keeping this scumbag (emoticon for thumbs up)”
Wonder if they’d take Hone Harawira …
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
On sea level rise – great, a switch from yet another discussion on Phil to something new (not) a regurgitation of an old 2+ year old document on climate change, on something that has already been re-re-rehashed.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Right of Way: while I appreciate that blocking someone’s comments could be seen as not listening to all sides of the story, I know from my experience at KB that phlu doesn’t count in that regard. He has freedom of speech, and I’ve always had freedom to ignore him. I know from past experience that I have zero (or less) interest in anything he ever posts, so I’ve just made by ignore function more efficient. There are also economic considerations in that I won’t have to replace the scroll wheel in my mouse so often.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
It only requires that people start discussions of their own that are sufficiently compelling for others to pick up.
At this point I’m quite happy to consider subjects outside the phool/AGW/religion set. Oh, and also current US politics.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
So does a rational mind, just for different reasons.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Well now that I’ve had my morning fun it’s back to proofing this damned history.
But before that starts……….
Getstaffed
As with anything that Luc puts up you need to check it yourself. Key points to note from his – ahem – argument:
1. Focuses on 2001 -2008. Clever. That means:
– the analysis starts from a record low in defense spending in 2000 – 3.6% of GDP, which is the only accurate way of measuring any
type of decadal government spending – arising from a decade of post-Cold War defense cuts. The GDP % of defense spending was
much higher in the past – I think it sat around 10% for most of the 1950’s and 60’s.
– it leaves out the whole TARP and Stimulus insanity engaged in by Bush, Obama and the Democratic Congress and Senate. Take a
look at the 2010FY.
2. It focuses on discretionary spending and then mixes Medicare/Medicaid into the discussion and even puts those in a table under such a heading. That’s so deceptive as to be a lie. In fact these are “mandatory” programs, meaning their growth is not subject to annual budget debates, and they’re the biggest programs and will grow more rapidly due to the way they are structured.
3. The whole thrust of this sort of analysis is the “fantastic spending on new weapons by a militaristic culture” – classic 60′-80’s left-wing arguments. In fact that ginormous defence outlay (and it’s growth) is the result of the creation of the new Department of Homeland Security (and yes that is a bureaucratic clusterfuck) and the usual spending on operations and pay. You can all have a look at the Defense Spending charts here – and that includes specific “new weapons” programs.
The RDT&E budget amounts to about $79 billion, and some new systems will be in the $104 billion procurement section – although even most of that is just buying standard stuff – MRE’s to toilet paper to bullets. Together that’s about 12% of this years SSC/Medicare/caid spending.
4. The key problem is that while “Defense” expenditures can get higher % increases at different periods (say after 3000 people are killed in a terrorist attack on the US), the mandatory programs have a steady growth rate that applies each year and every year. I assume people understand the impact of compound interest.
As a result Medicare/Medicaid has grown from a $1.5 billion a year when they were first introduced in the mid-60’s (say $10 billion/year in 2010 dollars) to where they are now. And since their growth is accelerating it’s those programs, plus Social Security. that will kill the US if something is not done soon.
It won’t be of course, not even by the Republicans, because they are entitlements that increasing chunks of the US population need to survive. They’re locked in, which was the intention of the most fanatical proponents all along. Maybe their growth will even force massive cuts in DOD one day – a win-win for the Luc’s of this world.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:20 pm
And an Open Mind with no filters just lets in any old shit.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Pete, I must have been away that day, sorry to bore you. At least that’s one less thing to worry about then.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Is there no way that the RIP thingy can run on IE? I only have Firefox on my home PC.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Well given that there is a bill before parliament which will substantially reduce New Zealander’s standard of living and transfer New Zealand’s wealth to third world thugocracies and the need for this is justified by claims the sea level is rising I would have thought discussion of this matter somewhat timely.
Indeed the supposed rise in sea levels are so small as to be indeterminate as to whether or not they are actually rising but that has not stopped the shouters from making absurd claims to the contrary in an attempt to panic our decision makers into ceding our sovereignty to international organizations
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Good. Then you’ll defend my use of RIP as just a different way not to read it – and one much easier on the eyes and fingers.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Titiwhai Harawira on Radio Live within the last hour says Sharples and Turia are more interested in the Baubles of Office than true representation of Maori. She says there has been no ETS consultation and she is one of the tribal shareholders.
How the media’s reports of Hone wanting to stay with the Party line up with his mother’s comments on Radio Live, is bit of a mystery
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
This is not very consistent. Key decides not to meet one largely irrelevant head of a church but he chooses to meet with another…
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
So Act is now going to support National on the ETS – what say the extreme righties now, I wonder? Neville Hide?
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0911/S00315.htm
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Umm…. David, considering where you are… don’t broadcast your ethnicity!
Iran holds ‘largest ever’ war drill one day after threatening Tel Aviv http://tinyurl.com/y9exczm
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
I manage to ignore Phil’s drivel 95% of the time. For the most part, it pains me to try to decipher his use of commas and full stops.
Phils posts are very easy to not read.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Pete George – the queen might be the head of the irrelevant Anglican church, however she also wears a different hat (crown) as the head of state.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:42 pm
I missed the finer details of a RNZ news report a few minutes ago, but the main point was that we are losing ice off our glaciers at a much faster rate than we are gaining. And this is the point that deniers fail to comprehend – that the effects of warming are not uniform or even consistent, except as a long term trend.
The report mentioned we have lost 50% of the ice from our glaciers over the sine the aerial survey of 50 glaciers commenced – I missed how long that period is.
NIWA said it fits with global warming expectations. As do reports of 1/1000 year flooding in England and record temps in Australia. Mayhem on opposite sides of the globe, and opposite weather events, fit the predictions of the IPCC.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:48 pm
“911 – terrorists or Bush? You be the judge”
Well Blip it looks like we have and 96% of people are reality based and the other 4% are you and a couple of other raving loonies. Why not form a political party… oh wait, you already have and Gentetix is your leader.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:48 pm
ACT’s mandate at the last election was to oppose an emissions trading scheme. Why the backflip?
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Hey Luc the Fox and Franz Joseph are growing at an unprecidented rate and the Tasman is only reducing because an earthquake diverted a river through it.
How many other galicers we got?
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm
MMP means everything is up for negotiation afterwards.
Welcome to Realpolitik 101.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Luc – I recall in 1996 the Franz Josef glacier was visible from the church house for the first time in over 50 years. If it is retreating, it is going back to a status quo that was the case for most of last century.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:57 pm
None that I know of. Cold hearted women?
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:00 pm
We sent her to New York as I recall.
Gazz, they’re growing.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
In the Napoleonic Wars, the French government published a paper called the Bulletin. It published whatever the government wanted. Hence the phrase lying like a bulletin. With the revelations over the last few days, I suggest the phrase lying like a warmist should enter the modern lexicon.
cheers
David Prosser
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Then what is Luc on?
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Wow! Thanks for the RIP addon! The 2 biggest trolls, philu and Redbaiter -GONE!
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:10 pm
That:
New Zealand’s glaciers are continuing to shrink, the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (Niwa) says
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10611095
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I’d say he’s ODed on Al Gore gazz.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Sounds just like the controversy over the Himalayan glaciers then: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-proof-of-Himalayan-ice-melting-due-to-climate-change/articleshow/5213045.cms
This could be worth a read though: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/05/02/new-zealand-glacier-findings-upset-climate-theory/
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:21 pm
still waiting for the pearls of wisdom/insights..
(are they locked into a landing pattern..?..
should i keep waiting..?
or is there just none to be found..?)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:29 pm
The “pattern” is that that so called experts keep lying about the data.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Wow, phool, socialist arsehats spin their own failure and collusion with Communism as “seeing down the tanks?” Phenomenal. After all, we all know just how enamoured Western “intellectuals” were with Marxism. The idea scum like you are responsible for its overthrow is pretty much revisionism per excellence, and an excuse to rehabilitate that decrepit ideology, socialism.
In other news, the Conservatives in Britain are geniuses (genii?)
http://order-order.com/2009/11/22/jonah-curses-jedward-tories-immediately-launch-deadwood-digital-poster-campaign/
http://orderorder.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/deadwood.jpg?w=480&h=241
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Indeed Murray – which makes one VERY suspicious in NIWA’s release of a story on glacier shrinkage today. Perhaps they’re trying to further distance themselves from Jim Salinger.
http://www.anelegantchaos.org/cru/emails.php?eid=987&filename=1248785856.txt
Hat-tip to WhaleOil for the Jim Salinger link
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:37 pm
So are we really going to bankrupt the country for dodgy science put forward by people now shown to be corrupt? The government has to put the brakes on right now, while they still have the chance.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Hurf – we’re ignoring phil today.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Hi Luc – Just a wee question, if you could take the time please -
The last time there was a 1000 year flood (presumably around 1000 years ago?), what was the man made AGW situation?
How about the 1000 year flood before that?
And before that?
TIA
CL
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Looks like a gathering of closed minds getting a head of steam up!
A discussion here
Extract: A closed mind filters out and blocks off new or different ideas, information, and beliefs.
You mean like Global Warming proponents who seem unwilling to engage in any debate on the topic?
I’m sure Ive heard this line coming from many Global Warming fanatics “The time for debate is over” basically says there mind is closed to any debate doesnt it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:54 pm
You mean like Global Warming proponents who seem unwilling to engage in any debate on the topic?
Try the internet.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm
gazzmaniac – so am I, now I’ve managed to take out phil, Luc and Pete.
The beautiful sound of silence.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
“Try the internet.”
Where anyone who dares question any aspect of the man man global warming hysteria is labeled a “climate change denier”?
Yeah ok.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:04 pm
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/india-tells-west-to-stop-eating-beef/
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:08 pm
That feature can work both ways, being invisible to Hurfer sounds good to me
I don’t want to block and only see part of what is going on. Seems weird.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Where anyone who dares question any aspect of the man man global warming hysteria is labeled a “climate change denier”?
I’ve seen at least one debate on Kiwiblog, but it could be the exception to the rule I guess.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Re the melting Himalayan glaciers, I posted on this here the other day.
The quote I liked was this:
The report itself can be found at (subscribers only):
From Wikipedia:
Science is the academic journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and is considered one of the world’s most prestigious scientific journals.
Which rather throws a light on this comment from IPCC author, Dr R K Pachauri:
The next time I read a copy of Science I’ll be sure to follow this advice. After all, thanks to reading those emails I now have a better understanding of exactly how peer-reviewed science is done nowadays!
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Apparently there are recent comments here from people, but…I can’t see them. What’s going on?
To compensate, here is an amusing car commercial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn8TBAp96Mk
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Hurf
It was not Phil’s ideas that got most people’s back up but the whole approach towards – well everything really. I don’t think it’s a good idea to ignore Luc and Pete as we need them here to as modern examples of this:
That’s Malcolm Muggeridge, writing of his fellow travellers as a reporter in the USSR in the 1930’s.
What I especially appreciated was another comment he made on this, to the effect that the credulity of these people, astonished even hardened Soviet officials.
…..even hardened Soviet officials
Love it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
As I have just argued over at the Fairfacts Media Show, Rodney Hide should stand on the steps of parliament and cite the emails as causing sufficient doubt on the whole AGW religion.
New Zealand should then halt its ETS and further consider the issue.
That just might get the story on the front pages and leading the tv news.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:32 pm
“..I don’t want to block and only see part of what is going on. Seems weird…”
it will probably appeal to the fundamentalist christians tho’..
and the other one-eyed/blind ideologues..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Wow, what a week for ACT to decide it supports the ETS.
Talk about New Zealand being on a road to nowhere. Nothing quite like locking in the decline.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:39 pm
You read me wrong Tom. I’ve stirred up the climate here at times, it’s easy to get bites, but it doesn’t mean I avidly believe in everything I post. I resisted posting the glacier item today because I didn’t want GB to switch from an extended comment on one poster to another “discussion” where no one seems to take any notice of views that differ from their own. Climate seemed like fun for a while but it gets tedious.
If you have read what I’ve said you would know that I have concerns about climate but I’m not committed either way, I don’t know enough. And I am dubious about carbon trading and taxing as being effective ways to deal with trying to reduce emissions – which regardless of climate issues is a reasonable aim. So I am not promoting anything regarding climate except for discussion (seems to be futile) and keeping an open mind.
BTW, the glacier thing proves nothing, far to short and small an example. And in any case, if the climate warms it could end up resulting in more snow so increasing glacier size, depending on how high the average freezing level went.
BTW2, the email/data release adds something to the debate but it is far from a “that proves all climate science is totally wrong” situation.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:43 pm
i mean..really..
seeing as i just try to present new ideas/evidence/arguments..
and get absolutely no response on the ideas..
just streams of invective/ad hominems..from the latest in a five year long rota of knuckledraggers..
so..having them block me..
will make no difference..
and could cut the obsessive bile..
(don’t these people have a fucken brain..?
they never say anything else…of any interest..
so..
i’m all for the likes of star-bored/johhny/w.h.y…blocking me..
it’s a good idea..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I like RIP.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Key isn’t going to Copenhangen apparently because it’s a photo op.. and Key is more of a get things done bloke.
So I have a suggestion:
Do Copenhagen (which will cost me and my kids a bit), but abandon the ETS (which will cost me and my kids plenty every day for the rest of our lives)
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:49 pm
National have been handed on a plate an excuse to withdraw from an unpopular policy that I am sure they are regretting – and they choose not to take it. Not only that, but the fiercest critic of the scheme in parliament signs up to it in the face of ever increasing evidence and opposition.
What is wrong with them?
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Send Lucy Lawless to Copenhagen.
And never bring her back.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm
yay..!..hurf signed up..!
one of the most dreary/pedantic of them all is gone..!
this is a good monday..!
i could block them i s’pose..
but often..they are so deliciously dumb..
i would miss that.
but please..!
block me..!
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Quote of the Day (from carbonsense.com)
“There is a colossal scandal erupting in the blogosphere, and in the better media.
Someone, probably an insider offended by what he saw was going on, leaked a
large volume of emails from within the global warming priesthood centred within the
Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, UK.
These show a pattern of manipulation, suppression and selection of data and
evidence all designed to create and maintain the global warming myth.
So now we know – Global Warming is man-made after all – it is created by a small
group of dedicated believers posing as scientists using manufactured data, selected
statistics, dodgy computer models and “mates reviewed” papers.”
Oh dear; how sad; never mind. What say you Phillip Ure? Your silence on this issue today has been deafening …eh..?
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:53 pm
This RIP add-on is a thing of beauty. Biggest smile of the day so far (I know, a little sad isn’t it)
R.I.P Philu
Rufus
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Tom
re Muggeridge and earnest clergymen who walked reverently through anti-God museums and reverently turned over the pages of atheistic literature,
Was that before he let us all down and turned fundie godbotherer?
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Philip Ure? Why, I haven’t seen him all day. Probably qwardling to himself in a dark, soundproof room…
“Qwardle Oodle Ardle Woodle…
Qwardle Oodle Ardle Woodle…
…Hello? Anyone there?…Qwardle?”
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Strictly from a policy perspective, I think the inherent problem with an ETS system is that is actually has to be coordinated on a massive international scale. If you can’t get that coordination, then differences in timing and inclusion of industries, will just redistribute production from some parts of the world to others. We have less cows, France has more cows, GHG emissions rise or stay the same.
A carbon tax system avoids this coordination problem, and can be offset by taxes on other inputs (labour, capital etc). That way you could implement it in a way that would be fiscally neutral.
There are also a lot of no-regrets policies that seem to be consistently overlooked. The global energy subsidy is difficult to estimate, but ballpark figures (UNEP) are around $300 bn a year. This is money that governments are paying their citizens to burn fossil fuels and generate GHG gases. I haven’t checked deforestation subsidies recently, but these are also immense (and last time I looked, a similar scale to the energy subsidies).
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Back to the old adage, any politician who wants to be a politician is a bad choice for a politician.
We’ve elected a bunch of cowards.
As my wife and I determined last week, the only way not to be a net victim is to get a place at the trough.
Now where can I find a developing country that has stunning climate, lax immigration laws and low taxes.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Geez, 133 comments today – doesn’t seem like it. Maybe there is something missing, perhaps someone Removed It Permanently.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:04 pm
“..Now where can I find a developing country that has stunning climate, lax immigration laws and low taxes…”
um..!..new zealand..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:06 pm
RightNow – Nigeria awaits you both. Take some guns.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Sweet get kidnapped by pirates and the Royal Navy will park up and watch them do it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-navy-witnessed-somali-pirates-kidnap-british-couple-1820543.html
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:12 pm
NZ hardly has a stunning climate – unless you like huge variations everywhere, and huge variations in some places on the same day. I generally don’t mind the weather, but I wouldn’t call it stunning.
Immigration has it’s flaws but I don’t think it’s that easy.
Low taxes? Um, yeah, right.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:13 pm
“… and Key is more of a get things done bloke.”
Surely that’s a joke.
Since when? Why has he delegated the colossal ETS responsibility to Nick Smith, the Green fifth columnist? Why is Key missing in action altogether?
If Key is a man of actions I’m Napoleon and Albert Einstein rolled into one.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
It’s the progressive way, Murray. You’ve got to sympathise because that’s their only source of income!
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Napolert Bonastein!
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Whoops, I meant tax reductions on other inputs. The point being though, is that you escape the financial liabilities that are ‘risked’ with an ETS.
Plus getting rid of existing GHG distortions (fuel subsidies, farming subsidies, deforestation subsidies) should be much higher on the international ‘menu of choices’.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Chthoniid – It’s not so much the co-ordination, it’s that politicians are not to be trusted with other’s money. Not a local level – witness rates rises outstripping inflation for generations. Not at a national level – witness successive governments buying their re-election, and National today horse-trading with the racist Maori party just to get the ETS enacted here.
Can you imagine the corruption that will transact at a global level once the power-hungry psychopaths at the UN (and all aspiring national-level psychopaths) get their hands on the income generated from my labour?
I repeat: Key needs to show the ETS cost benefit to NZ in black in white. Yesterday. He’s failed to do that, so I want to know what’s in it for him and/or Smith?
Manolo – Yes it was a joke. It’s how (I imagine) Key sees himself.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:22 pm
It’s hard enough getting an ETS or tax agreement in a small country like NZ, it’s going to be more difficult if not impossible in the US. Getting the whole world to come to agreement is not looking like a good bet, I think the odds of NZ winning the football world cup are much better.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
This CRU e-mail scandal is a big hit on the global warming bandwagon but I can’t see it making a huge difference immediately.
Its effect will be long term – knocking the credibility of the Climatic Research Unit and all the authors revealed by the hackers.
The true measure of what this means will be known when these believers try to peddle more massaged facts.
Judging by the latest polls showing the general public is waking up, they might not get the warm welcome they’re used to.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:29 pm
New topic: Here’s an animation showing unemployment by county in the US over the past two years: http://cohort11.americanobserver.net/latoyaegwuekwe/multimediafinal.html
Everything looks fairly normal until July 2008 or so, then boom..
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I like RIP too, it’s enhanced by being able to tell when a post has been omitted because the usual alternating grey and white comment backgrounds are out of sequence.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Time for the Mid-Afternoon Idiocy Digest. Here’s a mid-20s Marxist idiot getting big ideas about himself and his fellow do-gooders.
Maybe him and Phool could team up and get run over by an A380.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:34 pm
I see you boys willfully ignore the relevance to the warming crisis evident in the Herald article.
This year’s snowline was, on average, 95 metres above where it needed to be to keep the ice mass constant, Niwa said.
Over the past 33 years, there had been an overall decrease in the glacier mass balance, despite periods where the balance had increased for a few years.
I used the word “crisis” quite deliberately because there is no credible debate about global warming except amongst fringe scientists, knee jerk contrarians and outright loonies.
The email thing is just a passing dustcloud. There is no point in posting the rebuttals because the deniers amongst you have closed their minds anyway.
And before the usual kneejerk chorusyour the one with the closed mind! appears, as I have often said, I hope the science is barking up the wrong tree, but it doesn’t look like it and I am not willing to take the chance and pass on anymore of a disaster to following generations than what we have already created.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:35 pm
I agree getstaffed- we have the minor example in NZ between the previous Government and the Kyoto Forest Owners sustained spat over the carbon credits as an instance of a political ‘grab’. Scale that up to the global level- and – shudder.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Hurf Durf
“No captain can do much wrong who puts his ship along side that of an enemy”
Nelson
“It takes three years to build a ship and three hundred years to build a tradition”
Cunnigham
What the hell happened to the navy that pulled us out of Crete under the Luftwaffes total air command and sailed into neutral waters to storm the Altmark and take the prisoners off?
Rocking horse shit, faires and royal navy intestianal fortitude. Apparently you can end a tradition in three years as well.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:36 pm
The con has been exposed Luc, time to fold up your tent and fuck off.
This story will continue to grow, once the public realise how badly they have been conned by the hard left there will be an uproar.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Luc, door.ass.way.out
Bye.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Luc? Who’s Luc? I see no Luc here.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Hurf,
You’ve RIPped Luc?
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Hurf, he’s the invisible fart in the room and we’re now on the other side of the window. We can see everyone’s noses wrinkling but can only infer why. I love RIP
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:52 pm
You could say I’ve applied the mute button to Luc’s post-colonial piehole.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:55 pm
No, Hurfer isn’t invisible, he’s in full view, he can only see parts of the conversations.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Where’s Phillip Ure gone? I mean, it’s not as though he has to work or anything. Could it be that he’s feeling betrayed at the revelations that the AGW Zealots lied and cheated all these years?
And I just can’t resist the temptation to post this bit again – I sense we will see this quoted frequently over the coming days and weeks:
“So now we know – Global Warming is man-made after all – it is created by a small
group of dedicated believers posing as scientists using manufactured data, selected
statistics, dodgy computer models and “mates reviewed” papers.”
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Just want back to yesterday’s GD. So much better without phool and bonkers and delirium.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Pete Goerge: “It’s hard enough getting an ETS or tax agreement in a small country like NZ, it’s going to be more difficult if not impossible in the US. Getting the whole world to come to agreement is not looking like a good bet.”
Yep, like . . .
“India has urged the West to give up eating beef to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions responsible for global warming.
The United States, the world’s largest emitter along with China, is also the world’s greatest beef-eating nation and consumes 25 per cent more than Europe.”
Meanwhile, India is the nation with the largest number of cattle, about 281,700,000 or 28.29% of the world cattle population [estimated to be about 1.3 billion]. The United States: 96,669,000, 34.32% of India’s total, 9.71% of world cattle population.
So India has 2.9 times [very near three times] the number of cattle as does the USA, and do Indian cows live longer because they aren’t killed and eaten?
Why are New Zealand politicians locking us into an ETS when the rest of the world is eons away from agreeing on anything, and leaked emails are indicating GW may be exaggerated anyway to benefit researchers and other interested parties?
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:04 pm
I see the maori party has secured special business dispensations in return for voting for the emissions trading scheme.
Not quite sure the details, if true this is a despicable new low in our countries history.
White business should start to fire maori workers in retaliation.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:08 pm
So we’re set to give even more money to Russia?
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Feeding baby and putting her to sleep, guys. You know what they say, a Daddy’s work is never done. Then I foolishly poke my head in here and see all this noise…ah well.
Tom, when you post stuff in support of the deniers, you could also post the rebuttal and save me the work.
In particular, maybe you could have a look for the satellite pics mentioned in the report. They are bound to be around somewhere.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:14 pm
I bet those IPCC bullshitters are filling their pants, what a pack of diseased lying maggots. Is it any wonder these bastards are in such a hurry to have all the punters sign on the dotted line. And Shonkey and his idiot sidekick Smith need a good arse kicking, what the fuck is wrong with these two bobs?. Bloody Shonkey is no better then that nasty piece of work he has replaced, what a disappointment the yellow bellies in the Nats are. They don’t give a stuff about what this will do to the country they are in it for themselves as middlemen who must collect the cash and no doubt will charge a rather large handling fee, socialist bastards!!!!!!!!!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:16 pm
@Hurf 4.08pm
That is now just hot air, these days, Hurf. Things have changed.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Oh, that CRU leak just will not go away. And just two weeks before Copenhagen, the saviour of the left too. Heartbreaking.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:24 pm
hurf, big bruv (very Orwellian), murray, ssb, RB (when he or she appears) etc…is this like looking into a mirror?
Closed minds use hostility, prejudice, indifference, and inattention to keep new or different ideas from gaining a foothold. Closed minds stand in the way of learning and change.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Gangroti glacier Himalayas
Satellite image provided by those lying, scum sucking, non-scientists at NASA where they only do simple shit like putting men on the moon!
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:38 pm
I really don’t like this buying of votes. But I guess this is what we will see all over the world. Favoured participants will benefit, and the emissions will keep on flowing.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:41 pm
The poster cowering behind the pseudonym ‘Luc Hansen’ is once again deliberately disingenuous. Or downright dishonest.
Further reading at 450 PEER-REVIEWED PAPERS SUPPORTING SKEPTICISM OF AGW-CAUSED GLOBAL WARMING.
This whole business is nothing to do with climate. It’s the fruition of a plan published in 1972 that would see a new ‘enemy’ created in the form of Global Warming: “In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill.”
That so many people are sucked in by this scam is tragic.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
How low can Key and his political allies and stooges go? They are about to pass the ETS legislation along racial lines, in other words bribing and favouring Maori, and buying the votes of the Maori Party.
ACT has also being neutered/spayed and seems to go along with this farce. How low can be sink?
Key is unfit for office.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:54 pm
*wanders in*
*sees even more random links to various climate change articles*
*walks out*
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:01 pm
yay !..no more whore bag !! Thank you RIP…up yours phil ure…good bye and eat my ass..
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:02 pm
@getstaffed That so many people are sucked in by this scam is tragic.
I completely agree. But which scam?
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Look on the bright side, if the left think the hacked/leaked (doesn’t matter) Hadley CRU emails are a non-event
Does that mean we can get Don Brash back as National Party leader?
Good editorial here from Nigel Lawson
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6927598.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=2270657
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:07 pm
What about the other 9,000+ glaciers in the Himalayas Luc?
Or are you just being selective?
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:14 pm
“That so many people are sucked in by this scam is tragic.”
A little like Paul’s theology and thought being mistaken as that of Jesus. Apart from whether the original was valid, the emphasis has been a shift that has lasted nearly two thousand years.
Better luck with the GW spin.
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
yay..!..no more being bored by star-bored..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Ask the Indians:
http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/2009/090828india_warming_fraud.html
Wrong again Luc. This would be the same NASA that censured James Hansen for misrepresenting their scientific position.
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Does anyone actually take Tracey Barnett seriously?
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:24 pm
So, Pete George – I take it then that you were opposed to interest free student loans and WFF?
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:24 pm
See. Here’s fun. Luc “Fisk-me” Hansen is back with no counter arguments about his true beliefs (for which AGW is merely a cover), just the same dewy-eyed view of another lumbering global bureaucratic monster – with even a flavour of scientific inevitability thrown in.
And now referring to the Guardian I see – vs the magazine Science. Right. I thought Luc was into “peer reviewed articles”. In what now appears to be his SOP, he did not read my link, which is not solely to the “Government report”, nor just the one scientist. I covered all this in my link two days ago – including most of the same “rebuttals, including that deeply scientific word – “arrogant”.
This is not quite as poor as the “rebuttal” Luc made the other day – to a story completely different to the one I’d posted about, nor the woeful ignorance of the Crusades and Jihad that FE Smith showed him up on, nor even those three soundbites early last month that I wasted time on finding specific rebuttals, to which Luc’s response was a weak-ass you’re entitled to your opinions…..
It’s typical that Luc so often demands respectful, civil responses – while at the same time not even respecting his opponents enough to read their material. Well, of course Luc does not, given the mindset that we’re all just ignorant, stupid, evil people and therefore not worthy of much effort.
All Luc does is thrust an aging, wizened hand into a grab-bag full of decades-old leftist boilerplate turds, apply a quick spray job of post-modernistic tripe, dump it here, and then walk away from the glittering object.
Here’s a hint – if I do want to debate left-wing thoughts I’ll stick with Ryan Sproull. Unlike you he appears to be thoughtful, serious, respectful even when he’s under attack (I even remember Redbaiter apologising to him once), and somewhat skeptical even of his own ideology.
By contrast I saw Luc referring to The Nation the other day and it reminded me of the famous quote from Ms Manhattan Left-wing Intellectual herself – Susan Sontag:
What should be noted is that it never gave Luc and his comrades a moment’s pause, nor does it to this day.
But that’s the hard-left Stalinists – it’s expected of them. The real problem was always less with them than the “moderate centre-left” (or “Ceriums” as I call them now). You can just imagine trying to regale a room full of such people in the 1970’s or 80’s with some story about the USSR that had been obtained from the Readers Digest. The stunned silence, the rolling eyes, the hilarity, the guffaws, “Who farted?”, more chuckles. Perhaps the less mocking and more earnest would have muttered something about a CIA Propaganda rag” (partially true actually!!)
The thing is that I’d be willing to bet that this bunch still think more highly of The Nation than of the low-brow <Readers Digest, as they do of virtually everything that might appeal to the hoi poloi. No wonder the working classes abandoned them.
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Tom, trust me on this, get RIP then follow the instructions on here. It’s the best thing ever invented.
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Sigh – Hurf – look further up the thread!
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Poor Tom, have you wiped the spittle of your chin yet?
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
* The government paying for iwi representatives to travel to Copenhagen for world climate change talks next month.
Oh yeah . . .
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Luc, give it up man
The battle for the blogosphere in the Climate Fraud war is over
Look at the comments on any mainstream news site (even left wing ones)
They are generally 90%+ skeptical
Now, the battle will soon move in to the mainstream media
It’ll all be over in a couple of years, Mark my words
How will it feel to be the last man to post comments in support of history’s ever largest scam?
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Fortunately, President Paul was never fooled in the first place!
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Does that mean no more annoying energy company adverts with the kid whining to his dad about climate change, emmess?
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Sonny said “Ask the Indians.” So I did. Here is their answer.
Extract: Glaciologist from Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi, Rajesh Kumar says, “This increased melt rate/descent is largely due to warming up, thanks to the emission of green house gases. But increased human interference is also not a good sign for the glacier’s health. Earlier, there were nine tributaries to the Gangotri glacier. Now we are left with five.”
But I suppose he is just a scummy lying Indian, right?
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:11 pm
What tribe did John No Balls Key father belong to? Fly the flag. Bring on civil war says this WHITE MOTHER FUCKER !!!! Lock and load white boys.
What a sick fucked up country.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:17 pm
time to install RIP on my home PC too.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
>>Does that mean no more annoying energy company adverts with the kid whining to his dad about climate change, emmess?
I sure as hell hope so
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Sonny again “Wrong again Luc. This would be the same NASA that censured James Hansen for misrepresenting their scientific position.”
Your point? Are you pointing your stick at NASA or Hansen or both?
I don’t you guys here will get any support from either, somehow.
emmess: you’re deluded.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:23 pm
If I blow the crap out of a Maori Flag with my Mossberg, will the bent authorities turn a blind eye like they did to that idiot Maori with silly tough stickers all over his face when he let go with a shotgun in a public place?
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Yeesh – Luc, I doubt anyone is salivating at the sight of the morsels you’re flinging at the screen, especially the toiling masses.
Besides, your probably just envious after eating so much Crow.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Our local tribe elders are the best customers of the local P dealer.
Will the mob and black power patrol the forests?
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
>>emmess: you’re deluded.
A not unexpected response from a man who sees all that he has ever believed in crumbling before his eyes.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:34 pm
D4J
I have long thought you are a nutter , I have often made allowances for your obvious deranged mental state but your post at 6.11pm just cannot go without comment.
I have read some hateful stuff on the blogs but nowhere have I ever read anybody calling for a race war, not even John Harawira has gone that far.
You are nothing more than a racist cunt D4J, those Kiwiblog commentators who were quick to condemn Harawira should be just as quick to condemn you.
IMHO. your 6.11pm post is deserved of a lifetime ban.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Move to Australia. It is the best thing I ever did.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:41 pm
big blouse with a d4j beef – a lifetime ban for a figure of speech?
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Boy the MSM are a bunch of AGW arse licking mouthpieces. Lead story breathlessly being reported by government payed lackeys was about NZ’s shrinking glaciers, you can see the fear in these pricks eyes. Someone from upstairs must have put the order out to run some propaganda least the peasants have caught wind of the lies being spun by the IPCC. Oh and no mention of the emails from the bullshitters, just old Shonkey and his idiot sidekick selling our country out, socialist bastards!!!!!!.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Tom said Besides, your probably just envious after eating so much Crow
Tom, I can’t defend the rhetorical flourish that was out by just
a few centuries, my point was still valid, although I received then a different perspective (from chthoniid, from memory) that was most helpful. But I recognise very few other so called corrections that, do in fact, so often come down to a matter of opinion (and yours was in that category), of world view. So let’s move on. Especially, let’s move on from the personal abuse.
As regards abuse, I’m no saint, but I think I do pretty well compared to some others on here. Less obsessing on personalities of people you don’t even know (and I’m generalising here, not pointing at you) and more discussion of facts is always helpful.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:46 pm
All a race war would do is make everyone abandon New Zealand for good. It will do nothing to make anyone better off, apart from the weapons manufacturers in the US, Russia, France and UK. And there will be no chance of anyone coming back from Australia.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:46 pm
A life time ban for calling for a race war.
You fucking idiot.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:48 pm
A race war is not want what I want, however I would like to have a face to face with such a coward as yourself.
Come on blouse show some guts and name time and place? See if so lippy in person? Yeah right, haha.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:51 pm
What the hell are you on d4j?
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:53 pm
“A race war is not want what I want”
Despite that claim this is what you said at 6.11pm
“Bring on civil war says this WHITE MOTHER FUCKER !!!! Lock and load white boys.”
I ask you D4J, if that is not a call for a race war then what is it?
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:53 pm
big blouse has constantly attacked my credibilty. I want to met her or him? Is that a crime?
I did NOT say I wanted a race war you vindictive coward. Name a time and place blouse. This is going to be sorted for once and all.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:55 pm
It is not what he is on gazz, it is a case of what he should be on.
A good place to start might be a padded cell and valium.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Name a time a place big blouse or shut the fuck up you coward! Come on chicken.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
So as the CRU story unfolds, we see the climate ’scientists’ (aka scammers) in serious spin mode trying to explain their dodgy email comments.
But, and it’s a BIG but, the software code doesn’t lie. Code junkies have started sifting thru the code and there are comments and code steps there that prove the hockey-stock chart was being fabricated.
Remember, this is the chart that launched a thousand carbon traders [wet]dreams and is the cornerstone of the alarmist claim that we’re wrecking the planet with every breath (or CO2).
These guys belong in jail.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
An 18-year-old woman broke down briefly as she told a jury she had not intended to kill retired Opotiki school teacher John Rowe, only to knock him out so she could look around his bedroom for items to steal.
“I never wanted him to die. I thought he would wake up the next morning and have a sore head,” Courtney Churchward said in the High Court at Rotorua today.
Churchward and a 15-year-old girl whose name is suppressed are on trial for murdering 78-year-old Mr Rowe at his Opotiki home on November 25 last year.
To her counsel Paul Mabey QC, Churchward said she had been knocked out several times by her ex-partner, Nga Falani, and had always woken 10 or 15 minutes later, usually with a lump on her head.
She said Falani had attacked her at different times with a golf club, the blunt side of a knife, his fists and beer bottles.
Questioned about how she came to be at Mr Rowe’s home with her co-accused, she said they had gone there to find either cannabis or things to steal so they could buy cannabis.
Both had taken sticks from the lounge into the bedroom where they believed Mr Rower might have valuables. She had hit him so he would “blank out”. She said Mr Rowe appeared strong because she had not knocked him out when she struck him around the face and nose.
She flicked the bedroom light on and off and became scared when she saw blood on his face.
“He was still trying to get up. I just ran away, I saw scared, I panicked.”
In the lounge the pair turned over a television and armchair to make it look as if the house had been trashed. She admitted to Mr Mabey they had taken a wallet with cash in it and a radio from the lounge.
She had attempted to call 111 but Mr Rowe’s phone was not working.
She had also pushed a medic alarm system in the lounge but believed it had not worked because she pushed the cancel button rather than the emergency button.
When she found out the following day Mr Rowe was dead she was surprised.
———————————————————————————————————————————————–
Put your hand up if you think the above is “manslaughter”
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Now, now, D4J, you cannot keep threatening people like that.
Have you always been a violent thug?
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Tme and place coward.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:03 pm
What for D4J?
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I understand your anger D4J…I sometimes wonder where the fuck this country is going …I think back to the 81 springbox tour and people protesting about how fucked up South Africa was…and now we are going down the same track of apartied…I dunno… I just scratch my head. I know that its 50% of the reason my family and I are leaving for asia …turning my back on the country I was born in..and I wont be looking back.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Personally, i think that it is murder and the book needs to be thrown
Unfortunatley, their defense team are well aware of the joke that our legal system is, and are exploiting it by advising their client to talk all this rubbish
Tell you what, if you want to break into someones bedroom, savagely beat their head to a pulp using a weapon , and then say that you “didnt want him to die” expecting sympathy from the public/jury, then you deserve life + extra 10 years for assuming we are all as thick, primitive and stupid as you are.
God bless USA, atleast they (generally) dont buy all this bullshit, and they have no problem calling a spade a spade
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:07 pm
You called me a thug big blouse and wanting a race war. Wrong on both counts as I visit Canterbury Prisons every weekend and talk with Maori and white inmates about responsibility in the community. Judges, cops and screws don’t think I am a thug, so we have meeting so I can show you who I am. My name is Peter, what’s your handle yellowback backstabber?
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Put your hand up if you think the above is “manslaughter”
murder son…pure and simple…and the 2 little cunts that carried out this attack need to be dragged out behind the haybarn and given one copperhead each to the back of the head.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
You are one sick unit big blouse.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Mike
If they are serving on a murder trial jury then you can guarantee they are either thick, unemployed and/or public servants.
Nobody with real life experience can afford to be away from work for the length of time, this is why we see people like David Bain walk free.
I have been called for jury service many times, I always turn up as I see it to be part of my civic duty, and, to be honest the chance to make sure that at least one or two cases that week are about justice and not our fucked up legal system.
However,there is a limit, I make a deal with myself, if I was unlucky enough to be called to serve and the trial was scheduled to last longer than one week then I would tell whatever lies I needed to tell so I was excused, I simply cannot afford it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
From Minto:
Actually I agree. But take away the bit about pokies and he’s describing – quite accurately – socialist government tax collection and re-distribution. I’m sure he still supports that!
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Its a free lunch out here, im pretty sure the AMW vermin dream of one day arriving at the criminal utopia that is our country
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:20 pm
D4J
The fact that you visit prisons is symptomatic of all that is wrong with our justice system, you have a temper that you cannot control yet you “talk with Maori and white inmates about responsibility in the community”
You would be the LAST person who should be talking to these people.
And yes, you did bloody well call for a race war D4J, the fact that you now regret saying so is not my problem, accept what you said and either apologise and retract it, or shut the fuck up.
Either way, you are still an idiot and a racist.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Bruv, in a few sentences you have accuratley described the heart/root/cause of the problem, good stuff
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:22 pm
I am not a racist you twisted blouse. You really have a rather unhealthy fixation with me.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:26 pm
NZ sending Maori to Copengahen as found in The Herald: Roger Pikia and Chris Karamea Insley to go to Copenhagen as part of New Zealand’s official delegation.
Dr Smith said he made no apology for the decision, saying the two Maori men had relevant experience.
NZ is completely fucked for continuing these race-based policies. Tokenism of the highest order. And we all pay for this madness.
Key and Smith have betrayed New Zealand.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:29 pm
“you have a temper that you cannot control yet ”
Another vicious lie from a cowardly internet creep. Lets have a meeting so I CAN PROVE YOU ARE WRONG.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:32 pm
The sad thing is, the jurors will probably consider that our innocent victim was an old man, and therefore he didn’t have too many years to go, and the defendant is a teenager, who still has her whole life ahead of her, and therefore conclude that the law should favor the defendant. They will consider that she was just “looking for weed”, and it was a tragic end to an episode of childish stupidity
Nonsense obviously, the fact that the victim was an old man, and that it was an aggrivated robbery, should be enough for the condemned to be put away forever. The fact that defendant is young doesn’t make any difference, as the age of reason iyounger than that. The fact that the defendant was probably abused by (insert abuser here), makes no difference, as myself, and many other people have experienced abuse, in some cases extensive, but none of us managed to go and kill a poor old man in his own home, its because we are human, and civilised, unlike the defendant, who, by exposing their savage capability, has proven beyond any doubt that they are and will always be a major threat to society
To even search for reasons for compassionate treatment of the defendants is a major disrespect to Mr Rowe, the Rowe family, and many, many New Zealanders who expect the justice system , to be just that, a justice system.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Before you left wing, criminal defending , mass murder promoting, libbies attack me by saying that im describing a “guilty until proven inncoent” system , let me clarify that the defendant(s) are considered guilty only if there is there is credible evidence proving beyond any doubt that they are solely responsible. Admission is enough for me
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Dr Smith said he made no apology for the decision, saying the two Maori men had relevant experience.
What is the relevant experience required for attending a Climate Change Talkfest?
My guess it is flying business class and staying in nice hotels on someone else’s dime, talking the talk while achieving nothing of significance.
In other words troughing which appears to be the only growth industry in New zealand.
And after all why not – only a mug would consider spending years of their life building up a dairy herd only to see the fruits of the labour disappear into the bottomless pit of taxes, ACC levies and Carbon offsets
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:40 pm
The only, only, time manslaughter is applicable is self defense, this “i just wanted to bash him up” nonsense is beyond stupidity
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:46 pm
That’s right, I’m opposed to both.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Just an aside to Pete George – I’m well aware that this does not “prove” AGW does not exist – hardly a surprise when it does not appear to be falsifiable.
My point is that this is yet another example of a hyped up piece of interesting but very focused research, where the caveats and uncertainties and constraints of the original material magically vanish when massaged through the politicised arms of the IPCC. A process immensely enhanced if there is only a small group of self-referential people leading the final writeup and amplified by a media operating on the “if it bleeds, it leads” mode.
You might be surprised to know that I am not, and never have been, as dismissive of AGW as you imagine. Given my science background and my long-held interest in astronomy l knew about greenhouse gas effects on planets a good 20 years before the phrase began to trip off the tongues of luddites like the Greens. Because I’ve long followed the sad, winding path of NASA I still remember reading James Hansen’s original testimony on this topic in 1988.
I am not even that surprised at the vitriolic stew of the CRU group. Such feuds are famous in the history of science. Darwin referred to Lord Kelvin as “that odious spectre”. It’s just that our vastly more communicative world has delivered far greater power to such groups and the ripple effects are more immediate -as long as they can keep control of the message. That should be a concern to scientists, except that we now live in a world where “everything is political”, especially the narrative, which appears to have overrun the science.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:53 pm
# getstaffed (4250) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
From Minto:
I’m sick and tired of reading about the abuse of funds from pokie machines. Why is it that those responsible for distributing the money are so often exposed for bending the rules, abusing their trust or outright theft?
Actually I agree. But take away the bit about pokies and he’s describing – quite accurately – socialist government tax collection and re-distribution. I’m sure he still supports that!
*********************************************************************************
Can you name one country in the OECD that doesn’t support THAT ?
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:59 pm
So being in the OECD = credibility? i thought we realised that wasn’t the case a long time ago
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Thanks Tom, yeah, it’s easy to fall into the trap of lumping posters together, it’s easy to forget who post valid question marks and who don’t seem to see anything but one side of the argument. There is a lot of science out there, all imperfect to varying degrees, ditto scientists, too much to ignore but too imprecise to take as gospel either way.
There is far too much science for me to make any sort of strong argument on, it’s easy to pick a few bits out to “prove” a point but it rarely does. Single point arguments are pretty futile, they get nowhere and if they did they wouldn’t prove much at all apart from an isolated issue.
I know an Environmental Economist in Europe, I try to get ideas from him but at that level it’s too heavy going for me. I just don’t have the time or inclination to suss it all out properly.
It is premature to say the email release signals the death knell for climate change, just as it is far too soon to know how much if anything of a real problem we face.
I have pretty much come to the conclusion at the moment that I can’t see a snowball’s chance in next century’s Arctic summer of anything being agreed on worldwide to address anything anyway. Too bad if the problem does snowball.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Mike, I take that as a No.
You do realise that bastion of economic freedom, the USA, is a member of the OECD?
“You gotta spread the wealth, Joe.” Remember?
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:10 pm
From a historical perspective, indeed the USA is the bastion of economic freedom, however in recent times, it is not, as evidenced by the blanketed communism sweeping the nation
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Yay!
Thanks Fletch! I”m going back to Firefox just to use RIP!!!!!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:31 pm
I think this was a fair call bruv. I can see that as a provocative to violence too.
d4j, flying off in reaction just made it look more so. if you didn’t mean it like that you should have just said so.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:32 pm
@big bruv 7:20 pm
You just got your first ever thumbs up from me bruv for your 7:20 response to the loathsome d4j.
We don’t agree on much apart from cricket bruv, but seems we also agree that d4j is a racist, misogynist arsehole who idealises violence.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:34 pm
look here you i did not mean a race war in my comment. figure of speech, however big blouse uses every chance to back stab. end of story.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Tom Hunter said…
I thought Luc was into “peer reviewed articles”. In what now appears to be his SOP, he did not read my link, which is not solely to the “Government report”, nor just the one scientist.
Tom, you’re wasting your time with Lucy Hansen. She doesn’t & cannot understand reading “scientific peer review articles”. All she does is making piss-take comments and not putting forward a counter-argument to defend his positions. The best you can do is to ignore Lucy or otherwise, you can advise her that she does belong in the idiot-blogs like Capitalism Bad and Hand Mirror.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:34 pm
And while I’m putting my head above the parapet I’ll call this crap too, this looks to be sick as, or maybe just pathetic bravado. Condoning this sort of thing through silence is worrying, but that tends to happen here. Or there could be a reasonable explanation?
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Ok d4j. It’s one of the potential pitfalls of typed comments – you may be thinking of something one way, someone takes it another and you don’t see the immediate reaction so you can qualify. It can be easy to polarise without body language.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Pete, in order to call crap on something, you must not be a “crap pusher” yourself, a conflict of interest of sorts
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:41 pm
petey – body language is impossible when battling with anonymous people on the net.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Pete George? Where’s Pete George? He hasn’t been here all day. It’s refreshing not to hear his “moderate” whining.
Speaking of left-wing killjoys, here’s a bunch of war crimes lawyers looking at videogames and finding that – shock horror! – by and large they allow for the mass breaking of international humanitarian law and that these evil sprites are never taken to account for it. I mean, for fuck’s sake. I hope this shit didn’t get state funding.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Yeah, I was meaning that d4j.
Mike, what the hell are you talking about? Are you suggesting that because you may not agree with some things I post I shouldn’t criticise anyone? I think I have copped enough criticism here to have a few credits up my sleeve.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Pete, being a critic is a world away from merely “calling bullshit” on something, it is carefully analyzing the situation, variables and outcomes and expressing a differing point of view, clearly expressing your reasoning
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Dear Grim Reaper,
This year you have taken my favourite male actor, Patrick Swayze. You also took my favourite female actor, Farrah Fawcett Major and my favourite entertainer and dancer, Michael Jackson.
I want to be sure you know that Hone Harawera is my favorite politician.
Thanks.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Note to Phool,
I did tell you that it won’t be long.
Quardle oodle wardle doodle.
Whoar(been.a.fuckwit.since.born.com)
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I still don’t know where you’re coming from Mike. I didn’t think starboard’s comments needed deep analysis. If no one spoke against vigilante justice some nutter could think it is ok to try it. If we headed in that direction we would be in a sorry state.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Toad
You never gave me a thumbs up for animal welfare issues?
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Oh well at least toad and big blouse agree to hate d4j. I just love that.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Its pretty clear that bruv was using vigilante justice as an example for his advocation of use of the death penalty, where applicable. Your opposition clearly displays that you are against the death penalty, so perhaps you could give those of us who cannot comprehend how one can defend the right of life of a murderer, clearly ignoring the selfish removal of this right from the innocent victim, so that we could attempt to understand your position.
Do you support the idea of a safe, civilised society heavily insulated from predators who threaten the lives of the innocent?
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:12 pm
apologies to bruv for confusing him with starboard
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:15 pm
good to see the debate on g.d. has risen to such a high standard..eh..?
and..didyahear..?..star-bored is leaving the country..!
and never ever coming back..!
joy..!..joy..!..eh..?
that’s one less arsewipe to worry about..
the country gets a little more intelligent..
(maybe he’s gong to go to america..and tell jon voight what a leftwing/commie he is..?..
d’yareckon..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
A civilised society doesn’t take people behind the barn and shoot them.
I’m against the death penalty generally but I wouldn’t rule it out completely.
Being silent about neanderthal bravado can give tacit support to it. Silent support could easily lead to a young man going stupid outside a tavern and clocking someone, stuffing his life and ending another, all done in a few seconds. Could easily happen, couldn’t it?
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:18 pm
“If no one spoke against vigilante justice some nutter could think it is ok to try it. If we headed in that direction we would be in a sorry state.”
Not true, if one was going to commit murder via vigilante justice, he or she would do so regardless of whether or not people said it was wrong. Someone who needs someone else to tell them whether murder is right or wrong is doomed regardless of the content of any input from anyone.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Stop moving the posts, im clearly referring to the death penalty as a tool of justice, not citizens commiting murder by taking the law into their own hands.
You say your against it but you wouldn’t rule it out completely, wouldn’t it have to be across the board for all crimes involving murder in order to mantain consistency and equal justice for all ?
You clearly misintepret my position to be one of defending the actions which starboard suggested. I am talking in the context of starboard revealing his advocacy for the death penalty as a tool of justice, albeit inefficiently.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:29 pm
And before you pull out the mentally ill = compassion card, let me suggest that anyone and everyone who commits murder is mentally ill.
Feel free to point me to any science that proves me wrong
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Tom’s post November 23rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm leaves me a little bewildered. I have now got the time to try and decipher his point.
I admit I’m struggling, and am tempted to think he just aims to throw mud at whatever I post – just a little obsession he seems to have developed recently
.
First, he compares apples with oranges by mentioning defense spending as a proportion of GDP when the article I linked to focused on defense as a proportion total domestic spending, discretionary and mandatory. I’m sure the same analysis can be done using GDP as the basis, and the outcome would still come up to make the same point, but it’s a completely different analysis.
This chart shows defense spending as a proportion of GDP 1940-2003, if that is what turns you on. Understandably, it show a sharp increase after 9/11. But 9/11 is not the whole story.
Furthermore, the article, in Table 3 (Chart 1 on the pdf version available at a mouse click), makes it clear that for the purposes of analysis it totals all domestic spending and calculates proportions from that base. Both specifically mention “Other mandatory programs.”
I don’t know what Tom’s problem is with that.
The main point of the article is: The defense/security category also has grown four times as rapidly as all domestic programs combined — a category that includes Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the other entitlements, and the domestic discretionary programs.
Fisk away, Tom, but you are just muddying quite clear analysis.
And I am afraid this from Tom is just nonsense: 2. It focuses on discretionary spending and then mixes Medicare/Medicaid into the discussion and even puts those in a table under such a heading. That’s so deceptive as to be a lie. In fact these are “mandatory” programs, meaning their growth is not subject to annual budget debates, and they’re the biggest programs and will grow more rapidly due to the way they are structured.
Tom is just obfuscating again, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume he is looking for any way to attack me (although it’s not my analysis!).
The whole point of the article is that defense spending continued to grow at a much higher rate than other domestic program spending items.
But this is Tom’s real point, the driver of his aggro: The whole thrust of this sort of analysis is the “fantastic spending on new weapons by a militaristic culture” – classic 60′-80’s left-wing arguments.
And of course he draws in 9/11.
His argument fails because it is just risible to think that the most powerful, by far, nation in the world actually needs to keep up that fantastic level of spending to defend its borders. In fact, it does it for the opposite reason, and then deludes itself about the motivation by invoking “defense.”
Meanwhile, the middle class have not have a real pay rise since the start of the Clinton era; millions either can’t afford or can’t get health insurance to ensure their survival from eminently survivable injuries and ailments, and millions languish in (admittedly relative) poverty. The rest they just lock up at three times the rate of their latest existential threat (yeah, right) Iran.
The good news is that Tom’s Wikipedia (let’s ignore that I get dumped on for wiki links) link shows defense spending finally decreasing as a percentage of total domestic spending.
And I am not a peacenik on military spending. I have said here before that I consider we are free loading off our allies (mainly Australia) and friends (mainly USA) and we need to pull our weight more. Maybe not the latest fighter jets, but certainly a greatly expanded army and navy, if only for the threat we may face when AGW really kicks in in those faraway nations. Just ask any refugee: desperation is a great reducer of distance!
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Possibly prior tacit approval of violence, probably booze, plus bravado, perhaps one punch of stupidity, combined perhaps with a bit of bad luck for both.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Mike, I agree with you. What do you think are the consequences of this?
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Open Letter to the Prime Minister
Dear Prime Minister,
I am writing to respectfully request that you step in to delay the passing of the Climate Change Response (Moderated Emissions Trading) Amendment Bill.
In addition, in order to prevent Labour’s existing emissions trading scheme (ETS) from taking effect from January 1st 2010, I further request that you take up ACT’s offer of support and pass an amendment to the existing legislation to delay the commencement date until at least 2011.
Prime Minister, the reason for making these requests is to prevent you and your party from making what many believe is a serious mistake. As political commentator Matthew Hooton warned, “The government is heading towards its first major train wreck as it negotiates with iwi players in a last-ditch effort to secure Maori party support to ram through its harebrained emissions trading scheme (ETS). Only intervention by the Prime Minister … will prevent it.”[1]
The point is that your party told the public of New Zealand that your ETS had to be rushed through the Parliamentary process ahead of December’s climate change meeting in Copenhagen. It was claimed that having an ETS in place would strengthen our negotiating position regarding a replacement for the Kyoto Protocol. For the record, New Zealand has an ETS on the statute books. It was put there by Labour – and it will stay there until it is repealed.
Prime Minister, you have now advised the country that no successor to the Kyoto Protocol will be signed in Copenhagen next month. That means there is now no urgency over the ETS and no justification at all for rushing it through Parliament. It is clearly time to slow down and take stock. Given the parlous state of the New Zealand economy, prudence, not haste, is called for.
Prime Minister, your government should put your ETS on hold and refrain from any further action on climate change policy until you have carefully assessed the outcome of the Copenhagen meeting. This is especially important given that the rest of the world appears to be moving away from the concept of binding agreements like the Kyoto Protocol, which have been seen to not only fail to effectively reduce emissions, but to have imposed unacceptable cost burdens on economies.
That is why ideas like the concept of ‘national schedules’, being promoted by Australia and the United States – whereby countries are able to nominate achievable domestic mitigation targets that will not cripple their economies – are gaining traction as a more appropriate way forward once the Kyoto Protocol expires in 2012.[2]
In light of these developments, Prime Minister, if you continue with your plan to rush your ETS through ahead of the Copenhagen meeting, you would be breaching your duty of care by saddling New Zealanders with an enormously costly scheme that may be due to be phased out. If there is no commitment to carry on with Kyoto-type binding agreements after 2012, then the whole international emissions trading regime will collapse. There can be no doubt about that.
Just think of the implications the collapse of the ETS would have for the business sector. You, Prime Minister, would have compelled them to put their scarce resources into paying a carbon tax and complying with your grand scheme – a scheme that will undoubtedly cost the country thousands of jobs and cause a massive loss of wealth as manufacturers and investors move offshore. Surely this is a risk your government cannot afford to take.
Then there is the impact on your personal reputation. Do you realise, Prime Minister, that you are the only ‘conservative’ leader who, as the Wall St Journal describes it, is “pushing centrally-planned economies in the name of saving the earth.”[3] Do you really want this to be your legacy?
While activist organisations like Greenpeace can be expected to lobby for central planning and higher taxes, New Zealanders are not fixated by such acts of faith and will bitterly oppose your ETS when they realise the true cost of what they are having to pay. Even though your bill includes a subsidy to shield voters from much of the cost until after the next election, power and fuel prices will still rise, and they will push up the cost of goods and services across the board, putting upward pressure on inflation, and driving up interest rates and the exchange rate. Then how will the public be able to trust your commitment to catch Australia by 2025, when they see that it is your ETS that is dragging the economy down?
Prime Minister, a major justification given for rushing through the ETS is the need to align our scheme with Australia so that “neither country should seek to gain a competitive advantage by taking a softer line on carbon emissions.”[4] However, with public opposition to their scheme mounting, there is no guarantee that Australia’s ETS will be passed into law. That would mean that in spite of any agreements, if New Zealand introduces an ETS and Australia doesn’t, there will be a swift and disastrous (for New Zealand) exodus of Kiwi businesses across the Tasman. Further, given that Australia is proposing national schedules as the sensible way forward for Copenhagen, passing your ETS before you know what Australia is going to do is an extremely reckless course of action.
Then, there is the disturbing spectre of secret race-based deals to buy Maori Party support for the Bill. While the full details are not available, it appears that five iwi will be given thousands of hectares of conservation land to “lease” in perpetuity, for zero rental, with taxpayers being expected to front up to pay for the land to be planted in trees while the iwi will reap the benefits of harvesting the wood and selling the carbon credits![1]
What makes this deal even more obnoxious is the fact that it appears to be based on a claim by Ngai Tahu that the Crown withheld material information on the ETS and its potential impact on their forestry settlements during their Treaty of Waitangi negotiations. However, advice from Crown Law clearly disavows that notion: “there is no evidence of a breach of the Crown’s obligation under the deed of settlement”.[5] In light of this, your move to effectively privatise conservation land by gifting it to iwi – without any consultation with the public that own the DoC estate – will be totally repugnant to the vast majority of New Zealanders.
All in all, Prime Minister, the National Party is virtually standing alone regarding your ill-advised ETS. Your allies are nothing more than companions of convenience: green activists, a few iwi who are going to receive massive windfall gains, the Maori Party who can notch up yet another race-based “win” at the expense of New Zealand taxpayers, and government bureaucrats who will no doubt be pressuring you to go ahead and pass the bill. They, no doubt, are also ensuring that you are insulated from information they don’t want you to see.
For instance, Prime Minister, have you been briefed on the work of Professor Ian Plimer of Adelaide University, author of the best-selling book Heaven and Earth: Climate change – the real science? In his NZCPR article Occam’s Razor, Professor Plimer describes how the earth’s climate is constantly changing, and how the premise that underpins the ETS – that increases in man-made carbon dioxide are causing catastrophic global warming – are wrong. As he explains, “Atmospheric temperature has been decreasing in the 21st Century despite an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide. The [IPCC] climate models show that temperature should have been increasing in the 21st Century. This disconnect shows that carbon dioxide does not drive temperature and that models of very complex chaotic natural systems should be viewed with great caution.”
Professor Plimer continues, “Despite the 21st Century decrease in global temperature, we are perpetually warned of dangerous global warming. The proposition that climate should not change is absurd. This can only be promoted if all history, archaeology, geology, astronomy and solar physics are ignored – yet these are ignored in climate models. In effect, we are suffering climate wars with one group heroically using incomplete computer models to make predictions and another group using natural science.”
He concludes, “If an extraordinary claim is made, then extraordinary evidence must be given in support. This has not been done. Those who argue that human emissions of carbon dioxide change climate must demonstrate that changes observed today are not natural. This has not been done.”
Professor Plimer then turns his attention to emissions trading schemes: “Political decisions regarding emissions trading have had neither scientific nor financial due diligence. The major source of information derives from a political body, the IPCC, and some climate centres, such as the Hadley Centre, even refuse to release taxpayer-funded primary data for re-evaluation.” To read Professor Plimer’s full commentary, please click the sidebar link>>>
Prime Minister, these criticisms about a lack of due diligence are valid for National’s ETS. The emissions trading review select committee expressly ruled out any investigation of the science underpinning the ETS, and without a comprehensive regulatory impact analysis having been produced by your government, proper financial analysis has not been possible. This has been a major concern of Treasury and many of the submitters to the Bill, and has now led to claims that the cost of your ETS could reach $100 billion over time.
In his article, Professor Plimer mentions the IPCC (the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) – which we have been told is your government’s primary source of information on climate change – and the UK based Hadley Centre, which has provided much of the data for IPCC reports.
Well Prime Minister, I am wondering whether you have been briefed on the major scandal (dubbed “Climategate”) that has enveloped the Hadley Centre (University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit) over the last few days, whereby 61 megabites of hacked data and emails has been posted on the internet. This information appears to show unequivocally “that scientists manipulated data to bolster their argument that global warming is genuine and is being caused by human actions.”[6] If the picture of scientists falsifying the data for IPCC reports is found to be correct – and the damning emails certainly appear to be genuine – then the underlying rationale for the ETS, the Kyoto Protocol, and all other global warming based policies, will be seen to be baseless at best, and fraudulent at worst.
So, Prime Minister, on behalf of those New Zealanders who are extremely concerned about the future ramifications of imposing an ETS now, please step in and put the scheme on hold until after Copenhagen, when you will be better informed about the future direction of international climate change agreements and the best way forward for New Zealand.
I appreciate you taking the time to read this letter.
Yours sincerely,
Dr Muriel Newman
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:38 pm
# Falafulu Fisi (337) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Tom Hunter said…
I thought Luc was into “peer reviewed articles”. In what now appears to be his SOP, he did not read my link, which is not solely to the “Government report”, nor just the one scientist.
Tom, you’re wasting your time with Lucy Hansen. She doesn’t & cannot understand reading “scientific peer review articles”. All she does is making piss-take comments and not putting forward a counter-argument to defend his positions. The best you can do is to ignore Lucy or otherwise, you can advise her that she does belong in the idiot-blogs like Capitalism Bad and Hand Mirror.
***************************************
So, obviously, do all the governments of the OECD and most of the world with some sort of domestic law and order.
sloppy xxx 2u
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Oh, the giddy relief, the joy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No Ooodle Aarrdle Quordle Aaarkk!!!!!!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:45 pm
The consequences are that the justice system uses mental illness as a reason for the defendant to avoid jail, expecting the hospitals to risk the lives of their own staff to ensure that society is safe. If the system considered that one must be mentally ill to kill another, regardless of any external matter, then it would realise that it is an infact an injustice of epic proportion , to send a defendant to hospital under the context of mental illness.
Personally i believe that it is likely that people who suffer legitimate, severe mental illness reach the only peace they have ever experienced when they pass away. Ofcourse it is not up to the state to make the decision, until the day that an innocent persons life has been lost as a result of the persons actions.
The victim was a innocent man who longed to live the end of his life in the company of his loved ones, but instead spent it in a isolated moment of unimaginable fear and pain. That many struggle to remember or even consider this, is a tragedy of equal proportion to the one that took the victims life.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Final comment on GB tonight:
Can anyone name one, just one, national government that denies AGW?
Please, just one?
One?
And we will see the company you keep
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:51 pm
believe me..
i want all you mindless trolls..who can only insult..
and have never ever said anything of the slightest import/interest..
to sign up to block me..
come on..!
i am looking forward to the lessened cacophony..
maybe ideas might even get discussed/debated..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:56 pm
BRB watching our country get bent over.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:32 pm
What a wonderful day. Delirium dances alone, Luc pukes quietly and the magpie has finally been silenced. Perhaps it is the majesty of technology that provides for such wonder. The same technology that allows us to see climate scientists as the lying collectivists that they are, that allows us to organise protest marches against decrepit Gween laws, that when even ten years, the left-leaning media shut conservatives out of the mainstream conversation, we fight back with blogs and informed opinion while the audience for newspapers, television and radio continues to plummet like a stone.
We now have a voice against Greenpeace, against the Weatherman Underground, against the duplicitous bastards who control academia, the civil service, the unions and the media in the most sinister Gramscian manner and who seek our very destruction in the name of a guilt-ridden utopia. I feel tjat this is a good moment with which to mark this thousandth post on. To fighting the good fight, gentlemen. And it is this fight that perhaps needs to be elucidated to smooth movers like John Key and David Cameron.
And now, we have this voice.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:33 pm
The poster hiding behind the pseudonym ‘Luc Hansen’ asks:
Sure – Czech Republic : Czech President Calls Man-Made Global Warming a Myth, Questions Al Gore’s Sanity
+India, +China. +Others(which I can’t be bothered looking up)
The supporting politicians (not scientists… politicians who have a terminal self-interest) come from governments that have become increasingly socialist over recent years. No longer satisfied with the level of power & influence wielded domestically, each politicians envisages an altogether larger, more luxurious UN trough to ascend to.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Getstaffed
Shhhh. Don’t mention Havel either, the man – worse, the intellectual leader – who helped pull down the Soviet Bloc.
Luc’s still very, very angry about that – like George Galloway. Best not to provoke him.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
oops
I came back. Sorry. But someone has to tell the truth.
As regards India this http://www.envfor.nic.in/cc/cop8/moefbk.htm will tell the story that getstaffed is getdeluded…it is the website of Government for India: Environment and Forests (envfor).
China admits to global warming too. http://www.ccchina.gov.cn/WebSite/CCChina/UpFile/File188.pdf
As for the Czechs…http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/25/climate-change-eu-czech-republic
getstaffed: is that the best you can do?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:01 pm
I’m loving watching the smarter former-communist countries wholeheartedly reject socialism, embrace personal effort & enterprise, and grow their standard of living as a result.
By contrast we’ve become so lazy, so what-can-the-govt-do-for-me that I wonder if we’ll ever pull out of the our relentless drive down the OECD rankings.
I’m expecting our resident hand-wringing liberals start to applaud this decline soon, spinning it as a move towards a fairer society as we all become impoverished together. Go figure.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Don’t know what happened to the Guardian link but if you cut and paste it into the address bar it will work.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:09 pm
getstaffed said I’m loving watching the smarter former-communist countries wholeheartedly reject socialism, embrace personal effort & enterprise, and grow their standard of living as a result.
For example? And can we have actual per capita income as well as per capita income growth, please, in US $?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Hey Hurf, you said “The same technology that allows us to see climate scientists as the lying collectivists that they are…”
I remember your mate Roger Kerr writing about the enemies of capitalism, one was collectivism. Trouble is, Mr Kerr, as CEO of the Business Roundtable, is employed by a collective!
Thing is, for myself, I love capitalism! It has made me a lot of money!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Not interested in doing research for you ‘Luc’
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Why not getstaffed? I do heaps for you!
The Czechs, China, India…I have informed you!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Hmmm
A link to ONE department of the Indian government – Environment & Forests, who are really driving the economy.
A link to some PR website set up by the Chinese government (smart move)
An outraged letter to the Guardian from the leader of the all-powerful Czech Green Party.
How about this instead – from July this year in the London Times:
Oh well. Better luck with smashing capitalism next time. Though I don’t fancy Luc’s chances with the two largest countries in the world barrelling down that route now.
Perhaps if the Greens climb more chimney stacks?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:38 pm
Poor Tom, can’t resist the sucker punch.
I asked which government denied AGW, not which governments asked for special treatment. And I have a lot of sympathy for their request, by the way.
Did you not read my post above @11.18pm?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Poor Luc, still stuck in a worldview where words speak louder than actions.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Tom, he’s devious (‘I asked which government denied‘) and dishonest (Pretends to post under his real name while mocking others’ use of a pseudonym). He must be a climate scientist.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Getstaffed – I loved the “I love capitalism” bit.
Probably true – in the same way that Lenin was landed gentry prior to the Revolution.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:58 pm
I’ll butt out now
I can see you guys are busy
having a 69er
November 24th, 2009 at 12:03 am
Rather appropriate timing. Luc’s world turns back into a pumpkin – as usual – and with no missing glass slipper to rest his hopes upon.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:42 am
Luc – you appear to have missed my question above – here let me repeat it -
Hi Luc – Just a wee question, if you could take the time please -
The last time there was a 1000 year flood (presumably around 1000 years ago?), what was the man made AGW situation?
How about the 1000 year flood before that?
And before that?
TIA
CL
A short answer is fine, and please no emoticons ( or whatever they’re called ) ……so last week.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:47 am
Congrats on the grand HD:-
November 24th, 2009 at 5:12 am
If Maoris feel sold out by their Party on ETS, how do New Zealanders feel about Key deciding on his own to raise the Maori flag in government buildings and on his own front lawn?
It has taken a moment for him to sell cheaply a sovereign principle it has taken Maoris a century to achieve and Conservatives to preserve.
I don’t think he knows the magnitude of what he’s done!
November 24th, 2009 at 7:09 am
Being silent about neanderthal bravado can give tacit support to it.
And while I’m putting my head above the parapet I’ll call this crap too
ah yes..Pete George..the great apologist ..I know you would take the two murderers aside , sit them down have a chat , try and point out the error of their ways..give them another chance…give them a hug…put them back into society quick smart…but you have forgotten one thing mr george…the victim , yes I know its a dirty word victim..your sort make me puke george. I stand by my original statement..one copperhead each.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:40 am
I’m not apologising for anything. You don’t know me, and have no bloody idea what I would do. I prefer decent justice, not cowboy justice.
Your suggested approach would do nothing for the victim.
There is a good reason our justice system has evolved to where it is now. Retribution and lynch mob mentality create more injustices than they solve. Our current justice system can no doubt be improved, but that is not by going back to the Dark Ages and beyond. Most of us have become civilised.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Chicken Little – the 1000 year flood observation interested me. Is the measurement damage caused, or rainfall recorded?
The former is changed by better river management (landscaping, stop banks etc) and improved housing/roading, while the latter is at the mercy of consistent recording methods.
Or, more likely, it’s an alarmist stab at some comparison to ensure AGW headlines are created.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Yeah I know getstaffed I was going to take the piss out of luc if he/she answered. Its seems luc is a bit of a driveby commentor though. Maybe I’ll catch up with him/her today.