Transmission Gully is go

December 15th, 2009 at 12:31 pm by David Farrar

Finally after 60 years of dithering, we have a final decision to proceed with . Steven Joyce says:

Once complete, the upgraded route from Wellington Airport to Levin is expected to deliver travel time savings of between 23 and 33 minutes during peak times and between 17 and 23 minutes during the day.

Following the 2008 election the Minister said he was not prepared to support funding for the proposal until he had seen a thorough assessment of Transmission Gully alongside the alternative Coastal Route.

Mr Joyce says Transmission Gully has been debated for decades but this is the first time a decision has come with the plan and the funding track to see it through.

If only this decision could have been made a couple of decades ago, when it would have been much cheaper. But better late than never and most Wellingtonians will be very pleased that and the NZTA has made this decision.

Joyce also announced that his is part of a four lane expressway planned from Wellington Airport to Levin. Yay.  Thi will include duplication of the Mt Vic and Terrace tunnels.

Finally, the route through Kapiti has also been announced, and it is basically along the existing Western Link designation – but four lanes instead of two. The current SH1 will become a local road.

There is finally a long-term co-ordinated plan for greater Wellington region. Again, this will be very popular with everyone but Sue Kedgley.

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107 Responses to “Transmission Gully is go”

  1. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Great that the politicians continue to have their priorities right.

    The rail link north from Whangarei needs to be extended to the country’s only truly viable deepwater port at Marsden Point, and tunnels widened to allow containers through.

    Roads in Southland need upgrading to get product in this export region to port.

    Getting civil servants between work and beach homes and lifestyle blocks is far more important of course. Must be that. Unlike Auckland, not enough swinging voters affected to count.

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  2. wreck1080 (3,865 comments) says:

    You are right DPF it would have been cheaper a couple of decades ago in real terms.

    It is disgusting the cost of building roads today. Despite technological and productivity improvements , NZ roads just cost more and more to build.

    I reckon we should get a few german engineers, and import skilled chinese labour to do this.

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  3. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    But why will it take ten years to build? They built the bloody chunnel faster than that FFS!

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  4. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    66 years. The Marines offered to build it for us for free when they were based at Paekakariki. But the labour government want to keep as a post war job. Wonder what happened to that plan… maybe they saw a shiny train set they wanted or something.

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  5. bchapman (649 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  6. campit (467 comments) says:

    “The Government’s decision to invest nearly $11 billion in new State Highway Infrastructure over the next ten years will ensure funding is available for the gully project.”

    Does anyone else not think it ironic that we have this announcement as John Key heads to Copenhagen to talk about carbon reduction targets?

    Clearly transport is not expected to contribute to any reduction in emissions in the next 10 years. The ETS will come too late to have any effect on Government transport funding decisions, so what is the point?

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  7. RRM (9,773 comments) says:

    Johnboy – you can build things amazingly quickly if money is no object.

    Wreck – perhaps we can get you to advise the contractors on the sort of tender prices they SHOULD be submitting?

    Campit – cars standing stationary in heavy congestion are EXTREMELY inefficient. Infinitely inefficient, in fact :-)

    Aotea Quay to Ngauranga hard shoulder running is a bit of a cop-out. Relies on an assumption that no-one will break down and stop on the hard shoulder blocking it.

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  8. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    “But why will it take ten years to build? They built the bloody chunnel faster than that FFS! ”

    HTF can I get a negative karma for that question?—-Whoar are you lurking around here—go rob a pharmacy or something!

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  9. bearhunter (859 comments) says:

    “Getting civil servants between work and beach homes and lifestyle blocks is far more important of course. Must be that. Unlike Auckland, not enough swinging voters affected to count.”

    To be fair from memory I think the first of the Govt’s infrastructure projects announced was upgrading the Kopu bridge, so Auckland MPs could get to their Pauanui baches quicker.

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  10. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    “Johnboy – you can build things amazingly quickly if money is no object.”

    So why didn’t the Helen and Mickey show build it in six months?

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  11. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Murray posted at 12.58:

    …the Marines offered to build it for us for free when they were based at Paekakariki…

    I think that’s an old urban myth Murray, an NZ cargo cult-ism. After the last world war, every NZ town had something “the Yanks wanted to build for us”. From super airports at Auckland to a port in the tiny estuary in Invercargill, and railway lines and new ports in between.

    The marine division was near Wellington to finish its training only because the British asked for it as a sop to the NZ Government which wanted troops back from North Africa and the Middle East to fight the Japanese. Then it was off to the war theatre, and I think Wellington distinguished itself with a wharfie strike about the time they were embarking and loading gear.

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  12. campit (467 comments) says:

    the upgraded route from Wellington Airport to Levin is expected to deliver travel time savings of between 23 and 33 minutes during peak times and between 17 and 23 minutes during the day.

    Just also like to point out that these travel time savings are entirely theoretical and are never sustained over time as more cars fill up the new capacity. Emprical studies in the UK show that the average time people spend commuting each day has been pretty much unchanged since the 1970’s – about an hour a day, or half an hour each way – in spite of billions of pounds being invested in motorways and transport infrastructure.

    Travel times have more to do with peoples tolerance – if capacity changes then travel patterns change to match their tolerance.

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  13. Lucia Maria (2,277 comments) says:

    Wow and double wow.

    I’ll come back when I’ve picked myself off the ground.

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  14. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    “Make no mistake, at about a billion dollars this is a very expensive project, so the project is likely to need both the government funding and tolling.”

    Joyce then went onto say:

    “Spending $1 billion on infrastructure which will last indefinitely is an inspired call by this dynamic and visionary government. Almost as visionary as borrowing $1 billion a month to keep Labour’s unproductive vote-buying spurge rolling along. Oh shit. Sorry John, I wasn’t supposed to say that, was I?”

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  15. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    Fantastic news, Wellington has needed this for some time.

    Kinda wish I still owned property in Kapiti now…lol

    Of course, the added bonus about this announcement is that it will drive the Greens crazy, that always puts a smile on my face.

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  16. RRM (9,773 comments) says:

    Johnboy “HTF can I get a negative karma for that question?”

    Because it was a ridiculous question.
    Like asking, a fifteen-storey apartment building and the Space Shuttle are about the same size, so why is one so much more expensive to build than the other? Apples with apples.

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  17. emmess (1,420 comments) says:

    >>Just also like to point out that these travel time savings are entirely theoretical and are never sustained over time as more cars fill up the new capacity. Emprical studies in the UK show that the average time people spend commuting each day has been pretty much unchanged since the 1970’s – about an hour a day, or half an hour each way – in spite of billions of pounds being invested in motorways and transport infrastructure.

    >>Travel times have more to do with peoples tolerance – if capacity changes then travel patterns change to match their tolerance.

    Utter crap
    If you put a moderately high standard four lane expressway without any sharp curves through a relatively low density semi-suburban/semi-rural area of course people can cruise through at around about the speed limit

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  18. sheath (63 comments) says:

    Re campit.

    As greater London and most urban areas of England have grown a huge amount since the 1970’s. Great success to keep the average time the same when the average distance is increasing!

    Re Jack5

    Marine Corp was in Kapiti for several reasons. One of the main reasons was for amphib landing training (that nice flat beach) and another is that same flat beach was perfect place should the Japanese invade NZ it could cut off the capital with ease (so was defensive as well).

    The last ‘safe’ place 1000’s of marines before they died was Kapiti area and it was not just to keep the brits happy. They asked if road wanted to be built due the hassles they had of moving men and supplies from Wellington to the coast. After end of hostilities they had lots of men and equipment in area waiting to demobbing and would be good use of their time and help out an ally.

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  19. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    Jack I have a number of interviews with participants to back it up. What you got?

    Want to try the nationalisation of the Marines heavy equipment by the Laboutr government?

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  20. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    RRM said

    “Because it was a ridiculous question.
    Like asking, a fifteen-storey apartment building and the Space Shuttle are about the same size, so why is one so much more expensive to build than the other? Apples with apples. ”

    Not a ridiculous question at all your comparison however is ridiculous. I was asking how in Europe they can build a technological marvel like the chunnel in less time (six years) than we can build a simple four lane road (ten years projected).
    Surely our engineers are not that useless?

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  21. campit (467 comments) says:

    As greater London and most urban areas of England have grown a huge amount since the 1970’s. Great success to keep the average time the same when the average distance is increasing!

    Well, precisely. People choose to travel further distances instead of spending less time commuting, up to their individual tolerance level.

    Its an important point because with benefit cost ratios for highway project a dollar value is assigned to these theoretical travel time savings, that don’t eventuate. Instead people travel for the same amount of time on average, travelling further distances.

    There are benefits in increasing the capacity of any transport corridor, but they can’t be measured in travel time savings in the long term.

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  22. campit (467 comments) says:

    Utter crap
    If you put a moderately high standard four lane expressway without any sharp curves through a relatively low density semi-suburban/semi-rural area of course people can cruise through at around about the speed limit

    So what is your point? My point is that travel time savings aren’t sustained in the long term, so are a poor basis for justifying a transport infrastructure project.

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  23. sheath (63 comments) says:

    Re Campit (1:45)

    “Well, precisely. People choose to travel further distances instead of spending less time commuting, up to their individual tolerance level. ”

    Or perhaps the more obvious answer is they can not afford to buy as close to the city as previous generation so they have to go further out to get (more) affordable housing?

    Based on your logic if the roads were not built or improved then the people would have to spend much longer to get to work (or school) etc or rent closer or pay higher cost for a house to be closer? And you say roads are not providing any benefit?

    Just off hand cheaper housing at a ‘reasonable commute time’ seems a massive improvement to the country as a whole and not just the lucky sods that buy a place. Heck I recall the days that Reading was deemed a massive distance and now people comute to London all the time… and people think Reading is not even that far away now (and you get to share it with the worst sex offenders in the country and bunch of IT companies :-)

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  24. Fisiani (1,024 comments) says:

    NATIONAL = Progress Investment Jobs and the Future
    GREENS = Stagnation, Taxes, unemployment and the “Glorious Golden Ages of the Past”
    LABOUR = The survival of the Labour Party, Bribes to voters, No vision

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  25. campit (467 comments) says:

    And you say roads are not providing any benefit?

    No, there are benefits in increasing the capacity of any transport corridor. Increased property values, as you point out. Also agglomeration benefits through being able to reach more leisure and work opportunities within your personal travel time tolerance, but the best index of this is probably property values.

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  26. Camryn (553 comments) says:

    Build it. Build it all. Jack 5’s rail link too… for cargo to/from Marsden Point and Auckland and future passenger rail too.

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  27. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Re Murray at 1.33…

    Have a look at Churchill’s history of World War 2 to see the background to the US marine division going to NZ to finish training,

    What would have motivated the Marine Division to build Transmission Gully? You could argue that this is the opposite you would do in a country under threat. When invasion threatens, as did to NZ (a little remotely) in World War 2, countries stack explosives in bridges, tunnels etc ready to blow them, rather than improve transport.

    It’s an urban myth Murray. I bet your interviewees all heard it from “someone in authority”.

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  28. Natty Girl (8 comments) says:

    Porirua City had a visit from their Chinese sister city officials a few years ago – they offered to build it for a paltry few million and some slave labour.

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  29. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Amid all the Wellington cheering for this regional state patronage, what happened to the big plans for public-private partnerships and toll roads?

    Does anyone wonder about the state boosting private road transport facilities in Wellington, perhaps the only mini-region in the country even remotely suited by topography for rail transport of people. At the same time the state is boosting state funding for rail facilities in Auckland, where road transport is ideal for the spread-out, irregularly shaped city with diversely spread centres of employment.

    Why don’t we just give road tax to local bodies and let these, plus regional borrowing serviced by road tolls, finance local roading and suburban rail? Let the consumers and markets decide what’s needed.

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  30. sheath (63 comments) says:

    Jack5

    At the END of the war they offered to build it, not during. No one said during the war.

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  31. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Whoops! I just noticed that well down the Joyce announcement he says the road will likely need tolls as well as taxpayer handouts.

    That will give Labour, Possum Dunne, NZ Frisk, the Melon Greens, and all the other lefties something to promise at elections to come: we will abolish the tolls. National’s not exempt of course. Was it National that abolished the tolls on the AUckland Harbour Bridge. It was Muldoon who abolished them on the Lyttelton Road Tunnel.

    Very generous with taxpayers’ assets, our politicians.

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  32. emmess (1,420 comments) says:

    >>So what is your point? My point is that travel time savings aren’t sustained in the long term, so are a poor basis for justifying a transport infrastructure project.

    As Keynes said ‘In the long run we are all dead’
    It would take the best part of a century for that road to fill up, and who knows what the world will be like then

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  33. RRM (9,773 comments) says:

    Johnboy – something about relative value of traffic on Channel tunnel vs SH1 Wellington then perhaps? Again, you need to compare apples and apples.

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  34. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Re sheath at 2.43

    …At the END of the war they offered to build it, not during. No one said during the war…

    Why would the US marines build Transmission Gully at the end of the war, when they were up to their elbows in blood and guts at Iwo Jima and Okinawa?

    If you mean after the war, the question is still why? What would be in it for the US marines or the USA generally from building Transmission Gully in remote NZ?

    It’s an urban myth.

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  35. RRM (9,773 comments) says:

    “It would take the best part of a century for that road to fill up, and who knows what the world will be like then”

    Wat???

    How long did Auckland motorway of 2-3 lanes last before reaching capacity?

    Clue: Less than a century.

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  36. sheath (63 comments) says:

    Jack5 you are a moron. If you read my earlier comments I gave that answer all ready. Perhaps in future engage brain and read the thread before ranting your ill informed garage eh?

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  37. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    “There is finally a long-term co-ordinated plan for greater Wellington region. Again, this will be very popular with everyone but Sue Kedgley.”

    Sorry Mr. Farrar but no, not everyone but Sue Kedgley will be pleased. The majority of the people of Kapiti, who will be the ones affected by these proposals, do not want an expressway through their homes! Regardless of the personal and community impacts that this will have, which are very large, it fails to take into account climate change and peak oil which unfortunatly we have to be very mindful of in this age. Public transport IS the awnser for Wellington.

    No, this goes deeper than the public’s need for transport. This shows the hold that the trucking industry has over the Governement. That is the only reason they have gone with the expressway and indeed Transmission Gully, which isint designed for the new huge trucks anyway.

    The communitys discontent with the expressway is shown very clearly in the Kapiti Coast Disctrict Council submission which said that we do not need new motorways in our district. We already had a Western Link Road designation as a two lane road. This alongside public transport upgrades would have solved the issues with congestion.

    These plans are about cutting 12 minutes off the drive to Auckland and the Government’s relationship with the trucking industry. This destroys local communities and businesses. Shame on Steven Joyce and Nathan Guy. I can be assured Guy wont be the MP for Otaki after next election. Shows how isolated he is from his own community.

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  38. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    RRM What the hell has the “relative value of traffic” got to do with the comparable rates that engineers can build a simple four lane roadway versus a complex three bore undersea tunnel?—– Apples??—Dickhead?

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  39. backster (2,141 comments) says:

    CAMPIT said “My point is that travel time savings aren’t sustained in the long term, so are a poor basis for justifying a transport infrastructure project.”

    The changes made to the route over the past decade or so have resulted in sustained time saving especially the overpass of McKay’s Crossing. I welcome the news and think the right decision has been made.

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  40. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Murray 12:58 pm,

    66 years. The Marines offered to build it for us for free when they were based at Paekakariki. But the labour government want to keep as a post war job. Wonder what happened to that plan… maybe they saw a shiny train set they wanted or something.

    I am aware of this fact also, Murray.
    My father told me this was common knowledge at the time – that the Yanks would build it free of charge, but the stupid then Labour government turned it down. Talk about a monumental missed opportunity.

    Transmission Gully will be a great thing for greater Wellington, and not just because it will shave off a half hour on the trip north. Currently Wellington is very prone should the ‘big one’ hit the capital. S.H.2 follows the faultline from pretty much the city to Upper Hutt, and S.H.1 from Pukerua Bay to Paekakariki is also prone to being blocked either due to a major slip or flooding (as we’ve had) at Paekakariki. With the addition of Transmission Gully Wellington will have a vital third route which avoids the inherent weaknesses of the current S.H. 1&2 routes. It will also provide an alternative for heavy transport in and out of the city.

    Bring it on I say. This should have indeed been built 66 years ago.

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  41. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    sheath posted earlier:

    …After end of hostilities they had lots of men and equipment in area waiting to demobbing and would be good use of their time and help out an ally.

    They had nearly all left Wellington well before the end of World War 2, Sheath. This from NZ History Online:

    …In late October 1943 marines began embarking on transport ships in Wellington harbour… at dawn on 1 November, as white sheets waved a last farewell from Seatoun beach, the armada sailed. The empty camps around Wellington were soon broken up and the huts sold. Silverstream hospital was handed back to the locals in April 1944.

    link
    http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/us-forces-in-new-zealand/the-end-or-a-beginning

    You’re defending an urban myth sheath.

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  42. Nigel Kearney (970 comments) says:

    >Does anyone else not think it ironic that we have this announcement as John Key
    >heads to Copenhagen to talk about carbon reduction targets?

    Despite today’s ‘final’ decision I still expect to own a fully electric car before I ever get to drive on the bloody thing. On the other hand, taking the kids up the coast to the beach and back again on public transport is the stuff of nightmares.

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  43. RRM (9,773 comments) says:

    Johnboy –

    Ten million pounds/day worth of traffic can afford to pay considerably higher tolls, enabling far larger finance costs for the construction to be borne, compared to (say) sealing 11.5km of a single lane rural road that sees one milk tanker a day.

    And don’t call me a dickhead. Dickhead.

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  44. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    I’m confused, again. If Shonkey and idiot boy are so hell bent on saving the world from those nasty earth warming emissions why the hell are they encouraging more. Hay I don’t care if Wellington gets a super auto bran, good on them but if our politicians are so concerned about the state of the planet why the fuck didn’t they push for electric rail or something equally silly.This will only put new cars on the roads and encourage more to relocate further from their work places, how does this help our carbon footprint. Yeah i know don’t answer, AGW is but a crock of shit I just wish our so called leaders had the balls to say so.

    Anyhow, you lucky bastards in Wellington I wish they would do something with the goat track they call a state highway around this joint.

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  45. Chris C (224 comments) says:

    $1bn worth of new roads to replace roads that aren’t even full. Just windy.

    Awesome.

    Wow, well, I certainly hope that in ten year’s time, when they’re built – presumably, on past performance, well over budget and well under spec for the changes that have taken place in the meantime – there’s a $1bn return on the investment. In some form. Yeah. Swapped a Labour government for a National – swapped a Hornby train set for a fucking Scalectrix.

    Sustainable transport is about finding ways to move people, goods and information in ways that reduce its impact on the environment, the economy, and society.

    But good luck getting funding for any projects you might want to run, because at the same time they announced these essential $1bn roads, they cancelled the $1m Sustainable Management Fund.

    It’s most likely a tactical decision, because it reduces the amount of money available for funding for protection and promotion of the environments that these road projects are going to destroy.

    And, DPF – Jenny Rowan is “very disappointed” with the decision. So not just Sue Kedgley.

    I think you’ve underestimated Wellingtonians on this one, to be honest.

    By the way, since when did anyone need to get to fucking Levin in a hurry?

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  46. emmess (1,420 comments) says:

    >>How long did Auckland motorway of 2-3 lanes last before reaching capacity?

    Auckland is much bigger and the roads that are packed at rush hour (not necessarily at capacity) are fully suburban

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  47. Lucia Maria (2,277 comments) says:

    tautokai.baxter,

    The majority of the people of Kapiti, who will be the ones affected by these proposals, do not want an expressway through their homes!

    LOL!

    I live on the Kapiti Coast not far from where the road’s going to be built.

    It’s fantastic news.

    I can’t wait.

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  48. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,832 comments) says:

    side show bob says:

    This will only put new cars on the roads

    New Zealand isn’t a first world country. What you mean to say is “This will only put more of Japan’s second hand cast offs on New Zealand roads”.

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  49. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    “I live on the Kapiti Coast not far from where the road’s going to be built.

    It’s fantastic news.

    I can’t wait.”

    You are clearly misinformed. This will not benefit you, well maybe for you personally, but for the majority of people in your situation it will not. Firstly there are very few points you can get on and off the high speed expressway so local business will be damaged quite severly and it will not help you get around the district. Secondly it destroys native bush and eco-systems around where you live. Thirdly it will not help the disadvantaged in the community who need public transport. And where is the incentive to reduce your carbon emissions? There is none. Just buy a new gas guzzler and jump on the expressway regardless of our planet and the future generations! Yehah!

    These plans are disgusting. Simple as that.

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  50. Lucia Maria (2,277 comments) says:

    tautokai,

    Firstly there are very few points you can get on and off the high speed expressway so local business will be damaged quite severly …

    Somehow, I doubt that.

    … and it will not help you get around the district.

    I’ll continue to use the local roads, just like I do now.

    Secondly it destroys native bush and eco-systems around where you live.

    I destroy eco-systems everytime I mow the lawn and weeds my gardens. But the cool thing about plants is that they grow back. In fact, there are places such as “garden centres” where you can buy lots of plants and put them where there are none. And they grow. Creating new eco-systems. Nature’s like that. With a little bit of help from humans.

    Thirdly it will not help the disadvantaged in the community who need public transport.

    I’m not sure how this point is relevant.

    And where is the incentive to reduce your carbon emissions?

    I don’t want to reduce my carbon emissions. The whole climate change being caused by carbon emissions is a fraud perpetuated by people who basically want to tax the air that we breathe, and in the process, destroy life.

    We are carbon units, my friend.

    Carbon supports life.

    The more carbon emissions there are, the more plants will grow.

    To be anti-carbon is to be anti-life.

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  51. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    Sorry RRM. NOW I understand your convoluted logic. It still of course bears no resemblance to a logical answer to my very simple question regarding rate of building something however I can see where I went wrong in my presentation.

    I did not compare apples with Apples or in your case dickheads with a Dickhead.
    Thank you for pointing this out Dickhead.
    In future I shall use the correct term in responding to you Dickhead.

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  52. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    Well dont doubt that because I have seen the plans. You are obviously someone who doesnt care about how things effect others, just yourself. I bet if the huge concrete pillars spoiled your view you might. And if your a climate change denier then your plain stupid. The internet doesnt always say the truth. Nor the ACT Party manifesto.

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  53. bchapman (649 comments) says:

    Lucia-
    I assume you won’t mind paying the $10-15 toll that will be required to fund this road. Mind you in 2021 oil will likely be $300 a barrel so the toll will be the least of your costs.

    You may find even your clapped out train service a more viable possibility by then.

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  54. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    tautokai.baxter

    Are you really a Wellingtonian?

    If so then I doubt your motives, the whole bloody region knows that the coast road is a death trap, the whole bloody region knows that we (I include myself as a Wellingtonian even though I no longer live there) need an express way to move people in and out of the city.

    You worry about the climate change con and the rest of us will be happy that fewer people will lose their lives on that treacherous piece of road.

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  55. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    bchapman continues the Green scaremongering when it comes to private transport.

    Does he really think that when (and if) the world runs out of oil we will not find an alternative source of energy?

    The watermelons know that we (the public) are a lot harder to control when we have our own transport, in their version of the perfect world we would all be forced onto public transport.

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  56. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    BB— tautology baxter is a sad little lefty tosser who misses Helen and if he does live in Glorious Wellington he probably cheers for bloody Canterbury. As such he should be totally ignored just like Dickhead RRM.

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  57. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    Yes I live in Paekakariki on the Kapiti Coast. Granted, it is dangerous, this will not help. This allows high speeds and dangerous driving. I call for a sustainable solution which includes increasing the rail network to Otaki, a 2 lane Western Link Road (which we already have) and safety improvements to SH1. I care about people and the planet. Not 10 minutes off my driving time.

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  58. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    “tautology baxter is a sad little lefty tosser who misses Helen”
    Firstly spell my name right, its an ancestral name. Secondly you presume to much I prefer Helen Clark to John Key but I dont miss her at all. Meteria Turei for PM.

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  59. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    Transmission Gully is the best news for Wellington since we last won the shield. Anyone who lives here and says otherwise is a serious candidate for a lobotomy! :)

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  60. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    “Tautology (rhetoric), repetition of meaning, using dissimilar words to say the same thing twice, especially where the additional words fail to provide additional clarity and meaning.”

    I christened you tautology/tautokai over the Wanganui/Whanganui nonsense we discussed some time ago on this site. The subtlety was obviously lost on you.

    Johnboy

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  61. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    You should’nt make jokes about such awful things. The treatment of mental health patients was disgusting. Transmission Gully is mildly nessecary, the Kapiti Expressway is not!

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  62. Brian Marshall (201 comments) says:

    “Murray (4093) Says:
    December 15th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
    66 years. The Marines offered to build it for us for free when they were based at Paekakariki. But the labour government want to keep as a post war job. Wonder what happened to that plan… maybe they saw a shiny train set they wanted or something. ”

    Spot on Murray. I catch the train into Wellington during the working week. The one I caught yesterday was brought into service in 1949. Way past it’s retirement date, but the other trains are falling apart awaiting the replacements.

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  63. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    I know what your messed up logic for it was. I was expressing annoyance.

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  64. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    “I know what your messed up logic for it was.—-Whaaaaat?

    Satiate your annoyance by waving your new flag tautology.

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  65. burt (8,190 comments) says:

    Murray @ 12:58

    The Marines offered to build it for us for free when they were based at Paekakariki. But the labour government want to keep as a post war job.

    Yes, indeed. You don’t need to look very far around the Pacific to see the number of, and the standard of, roads the Americans built around that time. Airports were another favorite. Tonga & Raro are good examples of both.

    When I heard of the announcement today my first question was ‘Is there a snap election?’ I have never known Transmission Gully to be on the political radar outside of the pre-election fight for the hearts and minds.

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  66. Lucia Maria (2,277 comments) says:

    I care about people and the planet. Not 10 minutes off my driving time.

    If you were in an ambulance, that 10 minutes could make the difference between life and death.

    If it was a multi-lane road, then the impatient could easily pass the slow without terrorising them for the 10 or more minutes it takes to get from Pukerua Bay to the McClean’s Crossing.

    I lived in Sydney for many years, and a 4 lane highway is really just a local road over there. I lived next to one for years. Just up the road from there, at the intersection was a 6-lane local road. Really, this road ought to be future proofed and designed to be a 12-lane highway from the get-go. So going all ga-ga over a 4 lane “expressway” is a little overly dramatic.

    Roads are good things, tautokai. Nothing to be afraid of.

    The Romans built them, and it allowed them to push the boundaries of what was the civilised world for many centuries before Rome imploded. Without roads, civilisation cannot function.

    Bchapman,

    If the road too expensive to use, no one will use it, and therefore it won’t be paid off. So, it won’t be $10-$15 a trip. Get real.

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  67. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    Its not my flag. I dont want all that the flag represents. I am from the iwi of Taranaki and Whakatohea. I dont even nessicarily subscribe to being ‘Maori’.

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  68. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    Your spelling tells me otherwise tautology.

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  69. burt (8,190 comments) says:

    Jack5

    My understanding is that part of the master plan was a bigger airport at Kapiti that monster bombers could land on and a major road to Wellington as a supply line between American planes and American war ships tied up in Wellington harbour.

    This was of course back in the days when we we didn’t say we lived in a benign strategic environment.

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  70. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    “Without roads, civilisation cannot function.”

    What utter rubbish! Anyway thats not what im arguing. We do not need big new roads. The planet can no longer sustain the pressure we are putting on it, partly due to our use of carbon feuls on roads such as this. We should not be encouraging it anymore. People like you are so afraid of change.

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  71. godruelf (55 comments) says:

    The other great thing about transmission gully and the expressway is that they are virtually new roads so we don’t have to put up with neverending roadworks and delays on the existing route

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  72. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    People like you are so afraid of change.

    Fuck off you ignorant bigoted knob.

    [DPF: And that is 30 more demerits]

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  73. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    You seem to be the bigoted one. And is abuse your only form of argument?

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  74. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    Meteria Turei for PM.

    !…

    FFS.

    Her and Russel are going to see the greens miss 5% in 2011.

    We don’t need kids running the country.

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  75. burt (8,190 comments) says:

    tautokai.baxter

    The future may not be fossil fuels, but transport in the future will most likely involve wheels. No roads would be interesting though – we could adapt and use electric (solar assisted) all terrain vehicles and just find our own way from point to point.

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  76. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    And is abuse your only form of argument?

    Nope.

    You said:

    We do not need big new roads

    This is incorrect, therefore you are a backwards ignorant cunt.

    [DPF: And that is 50 demerits]

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  77. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    What does everyone have against public transport? Is the populas actually that lazy? And Sonny Blount the Greens are going to rise and rise and rise.

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  78. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    “This is incorrect, therefore you are a backwards ignorant cunt.”

    DPF is this acceptable on Kiwiblog?

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  79. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    tautokai.baxter

    “people like you are so afraid of change”

    Hmm, now where have I heard that before?, for some reason the phrase “change you can believe in” is stuck in my memory.

    We need big new roads and we need them as soon as possible, one day I hope to be able to drive from Wellington to Auckland on a four to six lane motorway, at the moment the journey (658 km’s) takes between 9-10 hours, in any civilised country with a proper motorway system that journey would take between 7-8 hours and be a damn sight safer.

    Give me more roads and less hand outs to welfare bludgers please, in fact, take every single long term dole bludger (and Philip Ure) and offer them jobs working on the road gangs, two problems cured at once, no more long term low life and lots of new roads.

    Maybe I should run for PM???

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  80. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    As great conservationists tautology perhaps maori could lead the way and stop using Estimas and Bongo Vans and go back to the old ways of running over the hills in their bare feet with a flax shopping bag to the honkies Countdown or Pak n Save.

    That would mean that Steven Joyce could put the construction date of Transmission Gully back a few years hence make us look better at Copenhagen?

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  81. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    “What does everyone have against public transport?”

    You mean, apart from it being;

    Smelly
    Dirty
    Unreliable
    Unsafe
    A haven for transmitting germs and disease
    Inconvenient
    Noisy
    A giant pain in the arse.

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  82. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    “Meteria Turei for PM”

    No chance, the next female PM of NZ will be Judith Collins and man will I enjoy that.

    If you think the Pinko’s are screaming now just wait until she is running the show.

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  83. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    You missed out “Full of Murri muggers and rapists” BB. [Shit another 50 demerits]

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  84. tautokai.baxter (199 comments) says:

    “Smelly
    Dirty
    Unreliable
    Unsafe
    A haven for transmitting germs and disease
    Inconvenient
    Noisy
    A giant pain in the arse.”

    Maybe then we could put more money into it so its not.
    Plus I would rather endure this then sea level rises. Maybe you wouldnt. Shows a clear difference in our moral mindset if thats the case.

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  85. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    So you fancy Judith then BB—– so do I!

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  86. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    Plus I would rather endure this then sea level rises. Maybe you wouldnt. Shows a clear difference in our moral mindset if thats the case.

    No, it more shows the level of brainwashing that one has experienced.

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  87. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    The older mans bit of hot tottie I say!!

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  88. Pete George (23,427 comments) says:

    The problem is tautokai, BB is more or less right. Public transport is looked on by many as something to avoid. It works well in other countries, mostly because higher population densities made it more necessary and reasonable infrastructure was in place when owning your own vehicle was a luxury so most people got into the habit of traveling public.

    Here most people don’t like to use public transport and don’t want to. To get it convenient enough and desirable enough is a lost cause, financially and psychologically.

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  89. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    “Maybe then we could put more money into it so its not.
    Plus I would rather endure this then sea level rises. Maybe you wouldnt. Shows a clear difference in our moral mindset if thats the case.”

    More money would not make it safer, less likely to he an incubator for germs, more reliable, more convenient, or less of a pain in the arse.

    The sea is not going to rise because of our actions, the sooner you stop pushing this lie the better, and please, stop the pathetic attempt to ‘guilt’ anybody who does not agree with you into accepting the con that is climate change.

    Provide the proof and I will agree with you, tell me how wealth transfer is going to change things and I will agree with you, until then please stop telling such blatant lies.

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  90. burt (8,190 comments) says:

    big bruv

    The AGW high priests must be pissed, they almost got there – the holy grail – world political domination.

    Still who knows, the theory might be right – not likely or the people who developed it would have welcomed extensive and robust peer review. The next year or so will be their chance to open the models up to extensive review or watch their theory fall into the junk science dust bin like thousands before it motivated by politics.

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  91. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    The narrower the road the cheaper it is to build …. taking this to a sensible degree means that instead of a huge fourlane highway the sensible option would have been to build a two lane highway up transmission gully for traffic going north and upgrading the coastal route for southward traffic … or vice versa. I saw this often when driving on major routes in the United States. Obviously when you get to the city you may need to have them close together but not out of city.

    Over the years I attributed my good health to my job which required a minimal mixing with others who might have infections and riding my scooter to work instead of associating with all and sundry on public transport … usually crowded at normal going and coming to and from worktimes. It was also a lot lot cheaper than other modes of transport.

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  92. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    I’ve worked it out if you say: “backwards ignorant c**t”. You are knackerd (Bye Sonny)

    BUT If you say “backwards ignorant c**t.”
    Cunningly, reversely substituting the (non-existant u for the* and the non-existant n for the other*).
    Somewhat resembling a Scandinavian name. You are OK in the eyes of David. Which of course is all that matters here.
    Hooray for Newspeak!!

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  93. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    jcuknz

    “The narrower the road the cheaper it is to build”

    I accept that, but for once in our life’s I would love to see a government that actually thought about the future for once, if you design it to suit the needs of today they we will be having this bloody argument again in 25 years.

    Build the fucking thing as big as we possibly can, it should be a minimum of six lanes, our grandkids will thank us for it.

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  94. Johnboy (15,903 comments) says:

    Christ BB never a truer word. The dumb bastards built the River Road from Lower to Upper Hutt down to price and its been a bloody useless abortion ever since (but a constant source of revenue for the little turds with the radar/laser guns who sit at the end of the few passing lanes earning the fat bastard (Broads) wages. Shit bags!!!!

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  95. thehawkreturns (162 comments) says:

    I nearly choked watching TVNZ7 tonight when the news reporter standing next to some road tunnel in Wellington was telling me how “busy it was. A 20 -30kmh car every 10 seconds is NOT busy anywhere else even Bluff. Jeez.. when are they going to close Wellington for good?

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  96. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    re Burt at 8.04pm:

    …My understanding is that part of the master plan was a bigger airport at Kapiti that monster bombers could land on and a major road to Wellington as a supply line between American planes and American war ships tied up in Wellington harbour…

    Burt, the urban myth about what the Murricans were going to do for Wellington during the war is harder to eradicate than gorse.

    Why would the Americans want a Wellington airport for “monster bombers” during or after World War 2? A key strategy of the Pacific campaign of the Americans in World War 2 was to capture bases or potential bases for B-29s ever closer to Japan, so the bombing campaign could be intensified. That’s what the blood-soaked island invasions were about.

    It’s hard to see a place for NZ air bases in the World War 2 strategic bombing or in the following Cold War strategic-bomber containment.

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  97. big bruv (13,698 comments) says:

    Jack5

    Like you I could not see the strategic value an airport at Kapiti would have for the yanks other than making it easier for them to ferry in supplies for the base they had on the Kapiti coast.

    Perhaps they wanted to build the road for no other reason that it might stop their young men driving into Wellington and shagging the arse of all the local chicks…..or make the trip into town to do same a lot faster….lol

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  98. V (715 comments) says:

    The one key issue that is never addressed by the greens with public transport is that it isn’t direct point-point, and this is the issue of frustration for most. In a world where time is money people simply can’t be bothered waiting for some granny to get on the bus, or wait while some wally talks to the bus driver, asking him stupid questions when he should be driving.

    Perhaps in the future systems such as this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit] may be the answer but that will require a reasonable infrastructure investment. Once Hydrogen/Electric options become more available we may find that roads with private vehicles are the best option to transport large numbers of people, especially if the major roads are controlled by an automated highway system (such as the PATH project) to ensure maximum throughput.
    One can dream I suppose.

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  99. raytaylor (1 comment) says:

    THIS ROAD IS GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT

    Too many people above say it is bad because it encourages more people to drive to work.
    That is simply wrong. Finding a carpark in wellington is hard – thats what deters people from driving to work. Not the congestion on the road since the train takes around the same time or what time saved isnt really worth the effort of using the train.

    What makes the transmission gully road good, is that it gets more people travelling further, in a higher gear, in a shorter time. Rather than travel a congested 5 kilometres of the total journey to work in second gear going 20km an hour, it is more efficent to go the same distance in 5th gear at 90km an hour.

    IDLE CARS POLLUTE – BETTER TO HAVE THEM MOVING!

    My other point i would like to make is in the 20 to 30 years when everyone is driving a hybrid or electric car, this will be when the lower congestion can be truly realised.

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  100. benji300 (1 comment) says:

    This proposal is a disaster it will do nothing to solve congestion other than creating a much worse traffic problem than we are currently facing. Lets be honest the Motorway will take more than 10 years to build and during this time congestion will start to increase at a rapid rate, something needs to be done now not in 10 years time. How is anyone surposed to benefit from this proposal when there is a possibility in 10 years time, oil prices will be through the roof and us the people will still have to foot the bill for this white elephant.

    Not to mention the devastating that Transmission Gulley will have on the surrounding environment. The lost to Natrual bush land, increased noise in the isolated communties that the road will effect and increased air pollution. The project will only shave off about 15-20 min of travel time, I don’t see this as a benefit at all, and given the price tag as well, what is the point. The motorway will only make growth through the region worse, creating a population that is heaviliy dependant on their private cars.

    The government hasn’t even considered doing any dramatic improvements to public transport like a high speed railway line for that price with a much higher benefit ratio as well. What is the point in increasing urban sprawl further away from Wellington, even the mayor of the Kapiti Coast is agaisnt this. We have a chance to stop this from happening and now is the time?

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  101. libertyscott (359 comments) says:

    Given I was involved in much detail in the last review of this project let’s just say what an appalling waste of money this will be.

    It has a benefit/cost ratio of around 0.5/1 so the project destroys wealth. David’s comments that he supported projects with a positive BCR being funded is now hollow, as even National has abandoned economic efficiency as a basis for deciding road priorities.

    Transmission Gully is a third more expensive than the alternative, unless you gold plate the alternative to placate extreme environmentalist views about the coast (which is reclaimed anyway) or Mana (which hasn’t got congestion anymore).

    It would not have been “cheaper” two decades ago, the business case then would have been even worse with far far less traffic. For roughly 5% of the cost, congestion has been mostly relieved and the bad accident rate has been largely forgone, saving millions of interest costs in not building it decades ago.

    A phenomenal waste of money. $1.2 billion to prop up the property values of a few thousand people in Paremata/Mana, Plimmerton, Pukerua Bay and Paekakariki, and promote Kapiti as a commuter suburb for Wellington.

    All that was needed was a bypass at Pukerua Bay, underpass at Paekakariki, and eventual four laning along the coast. None of which is a priority.

    What this proves is how appallingly wasteful politically driven road funding can be. Labour was willing to pour money down the drain to protect Mt Albert, National now does so to protect another area. The Greens will oppose it for the wrong reasons, but we are back to Think Big. For shame!

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  102. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    A great idea I think, however the only problem I have with it is when the big quake hits you bastards in Wellington will have another option to get out!!

    :-)

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  103. Elijah Lineberry (306 comments) says:

    What a disgrace; spending $2 billion of other people’s hard earned money on roading for a small provincial town full of civil servants.

    If ever there was a case of abuse of power this is it.

    Any roading money should be spent in Auckland – (or ‘Civilisation’ as I call it) – a place which earns money for NZ, a place where people actually live, a place which contributes rather than ‘takes’.

    http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com

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  104. RRM (9,773 comments) says:

    ^^^ Spot the shining example of how much better Aucklanders are than other people.

    SH1 both North and South out of Dork Land has had massive upgrades in the last 5 years. I work in Wellington, why should my taxes contribute to those?

    If you want to scream you have a problem with roading projects far from your home, feel free to send me a cheque covering the portion of your new roads that I paid for.

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  105. Angus (536 comments) says:

    What is this ? Saturday night at the wailing wall?

    There are 10746723 other things the Government could burn $1bil on.

    Just build the bloody thing.

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  106. bchapman (649 comments) says:

    If they want to be able to pay for Transmission Gully, they will need to have more than a $3 toll. By 2020, its extremely unlikely that this amount will even cover the cost of setting up and maintaining a tolling system.

    If they are counting on the NZLTF to fund the PPP partner they may be disappointed.A fuel tax set up for $70/barrel oil is unlikely to keep collecting as much when we are looking at higher fuel costs.

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  107. campit (467 comments) says:

    It has a benefit/cost ratio of around 0.5/1 so the project destroys wealth. David’s comments that he supported projects with a positive BCR being funded is now hollow, as even National has abandoned economic efficiency as a basis for deciding road priorities.

    Hear, hear! A better return on investment could be achieved if you stack $2bn into two piles, and thrust a blowtorch on the pile on the left.

    And just what is the contingency plan if petrol goes north of $2.30 again? We carry on with $11bn of road building because we will just get rid of the 2m registered fossil fuel powered vehicles and replace them with electric trucks and cars – which will be cheap, affordable and available in large quantities at your local electric vehicle dealer. Yeah right!

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