Police should consider assault charges
June 18th, 2010 at 1:17 pm by David FarrarStuff reports:
Green MP Russel Norman had a Tibetan flag torn from his hands by a member of Chinese Vice-President Xi Jinping’s entourage when he arrived at Parliament today.
Dr Norman said he believed it was one of the vice president’s security guards.
Arriving in a convoy of around six vehicles with a police escort, the guards initially tried to shield the flag with their bodies and umbrellas before it was torn from Dr Norman’s hand with a member of the vice president’s entourage standing on it as the VIP was rushed through the front entrance of Parliament.
“I think it’s pretty outrageous that Chinese security can come to our country and push around an elected Member of Parliament simply because you’re standing up for democracy and freedom in our own country on our own parliamentary grounds,” Dr Norman said afterwards.
“I mean, the Chinese security guards, they elbowed me out of the way, they put an umbrella over the top of me and they took the flag out of my hands and trampled on it.”
With some blood on his hand following the scuffle, Dr Norman said he had never experienced such treatment on Parliament’s grounds, he said.
“We were roughed up, they grabbed us and pushed us around.”
The Chinese security guards obviously exceeded their brief, and there should be consequences for that. Unless Dr Norman was a physical threat to the Vice-President, they had no right to manhandle him. Keeping an embarrassing sign out of sight is not a legitimate reason.
We had much the same in Dunedin in 2008 when Pete Hodgson manhandled a protester who was holding a sign up behind Helen Clark, which the cameras could see. Hodgson was investigated for assault in that incident, and the Chinese security should also be investigated for assault.
Personally I think Dr Norman looks like a prize idiot when he acts as a lone protester rather than a party leader – but he has the right to do so.
Related posts:
- More on China incident
- The difference between Donald and Norman
- Sense from Goff
- The PM at assault scene story
June 18th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
aw..poor wussell…no doubt he would have been waving the flag round in a frenzy…stupid ginga..
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
“I mean, the Chinese security guards, they elbowed me out of the way, they put an umbrella over the top of me and they took the flag out of my hands and trampled on it.”
Funny thing is, the Greens strive to implement exactly this kind of autocratic powerful and controlling political edifice here in New Zealand.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Yes I agree.
Vote:It has parallels with the incident that resulted in charges bought against Gerry Brownlee and his subsequent payment of damages to a protester.
June 18th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
“I think it’s pretty outrageous that Chinese security can come to our country and push around an elected Member of Parliament”
and I think its pretty outrageous an Australian environmentalist can come to our country and push around the lifestyles of kiwis through the Parliament
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
If the Chinese guard did trample on the flag, I don’t think that’s very respectful to the Tibetans who China says are Chinese.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
You had me with Personally I think Dr Norman looks like a prize idiot.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
DPF – I agree. I found it difficult to write a blog post supporting Russel Norman, but it IS his right to protest and it IS his right to exercise freedom of speech. That such freedoms are alien to the Chinese is one of the major issues here.
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/06/norman-gets-dealt-to.html
I’m just listening to Barry Soper on Newstalk ZB, and it sounds as though a cat has been let loose amongst the pigeons down in Parliament!
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
1. You’re not an “elected Member of Parliament” you’re a List MP. That’s like calling Miss New Zealand an “elected female” because half a dozen people put her at the top of a list.
2. More pertinently, it’s “pretty outrageous” that Chinese security can come to our country and push around anyone. You know, those ordinary citizens you were “elected” to “represent”. You were protesting in your capacity as a citizen, you were hassled – probably unjustifiably – in your capacity as a citizen, yet in complaining about it you demonstrate all the self-importance and hubris of every other trougher infesting the halls of our Parliament.
You represent us, you don’t rule us due to your being of a superior class, you bumptious little weed.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
It does seem extreme behavior from the Chinese security guards though Russell Norman must have known of the likely response to his protest action. I rather like that we are a country that has politicians protesting in this way.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
It probably had nothing to do with Tibet. The ugly ginger twat just has a face that makes you want to punch it. I think the guards just took offence to his gingerness.
[DPF: 20 demerits]
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
You think democracy is outrageous?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Fucks sake. The man is supposed to be an MP, not a two bit activist.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
What Rex said
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
But David, he ALWAYS looks like a prize idiot, a surprized idiot, actually.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
“The Chinese security guards obviously exceeded their brief, and there should be consequences for that. Unless Dr Norman was a physical threat to the Vice-President, they had no right to manhandle him. ”
Actually, this is quite right. Now, where are those cops who are so zealous about enforcing restrictive and impossible to comply with road laws on otherwise law abiding NZ citizens.
Here’s a big chance for them to prove they’re not just sops to socialist bureaucrats, and are ready actually do something about enforcing an important law.
The victim is an arse for sure but the law is the law, and when NZ was so heroic in kicking the US’s nuclear ships out of NZ ports, lets see if we’re brave enough to enforce our laws when a gang of visiting commie thugs, who shouldn’t even be in the country because they’re all part of the Tiannemin square massacre, throw their weight around.
Nothing will be done. There’s too much sympathy for these criminals in NZ political circles, and the Police force is too politicised.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Did they leave their guns in Peking?
Shame.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
I didn’t see it DPF, but I guess from the perspective of this guy’s security detail, if your brief is to protect your guy and someone is getting close to your boss just as he’s arriving, you might not have a good opportunity to say “excuse me, are you a physical threat to the Vice-President?” I’m sure they’ll respond that they acted to remove an unknown threat from the vicinity of their boss.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Diplomatic immunity – there won’t be any charges.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
I’m trying to work up the energy to care……..nah, not going to happen.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
I don’t think the police can lay charges as I’m sure the Chinese security guards would have diplomatic immunity.
[DPF: They probably do, but the Police can still investigate and force them to use their immunity. They can also be told they will not be allowed back in NZ]
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
SO where were the NZ security guards and police during this scuffle ?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
You’re right, redbaiter. And lawrence, although I don’t see why diplomatic immunity should extend to thugs.
It is time NZ stood up to ALL foreign leaders and said “You’re welcome here, we have a good police force and diplomatic protection squad, visas will not be issued for your own security guards”.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
@ Rex and krazykiwi – whether we like it or not, Norman IS an elected member of Parliament. He was #2 on the Greens’ list at the 2008 election, and enough New Zealanders gave their party vote to the Greens (poor, misguided souls as they may have been!) for Norman to be lawfully elected. That contrasts of course with his status PRIOR TO the 2008 election, where the Greens rorted the system to allow Norman to campaign on the taxpayer.
I personally dislike Russel Norman, and I despise the political philosophy he represents and the ideals he articulates. Like the quote attributed to Voltaire however, I respect his right to hold and articulate those opinions. I’m sure that there has been an element of provocation here, but it seems that the Chinese, visitors to this country and subject to our laws, have crossed the line.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
A pity they did not deal with Russ in a more forceful manner.
And by the way Russ, who paid for the Tibetan Flag you were waving?
This is nothing more than a publicity stunt from a party that will use any cause to try and attract votes.
Do not ever think they actually care about Tibet.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
big bruv
Keep an eye on the next release of MPs’ CC spending…
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
A pity they did not deal with Russ in a more forceful manner.
Yes, if only the security forces of foreign communist dictatorships could execute our politicians at will . . .
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Hell has obviously frozen over, what Redbaiter said.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Chinese security like Israeli security don’t give a shit for other countries civil rights… if Rissol trampled on the Chinese National flag he would be shot…
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Lone or Loon ?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
NoCash –“I don’t think the police can lay charges as I’m sure the Chinese security guards would have diplomatic immunity.”
Inventory2 – “… but it seems that the Chinese, visitors to this country and subject to our laws, have crossed the line.”
I’d have thought Chinese security guards may protect the Vice-President’s physical being only. Do Chinese security guards have diplomatic immunity?
Radio Live news says Norman was the LONE protester.
Vote:Norman says “We were roughed up, they grabbed us and pushed us around.” [stuff.co.nz]
‘We’, ‘us’?
June 18th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
I assume he was the lone protester because as an MP he was able to get close enough to do so?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
If Rissol and the Greens won’t to help stop globle warming.. they first need to get China on side.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
looking at the herald photos it doesn’t look like Norman is acting all that peacefully. Interestingly enough one of the captions says
Vote:“Green Party co-leader Russell Norman is restrained by Chinese and NZ police officers”
June 18th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Norman was there… the greens never lie.. Weeeeeeee.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Maybe he was trying to get his flag back?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
interesting because it says “and NZ police officers”
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
HOHOHO – I suggest to overcome the doplomatic immunity thing, Rusty the Oz flits off to China and takes a Private Prosecution out against the guard (YAWN!!!!!)
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
“‘We’, ‘us’?”
Haven’t you noticed? Commies always compulsively use the collective noun.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Isn’t this a case of the Pot calling the kettle black?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Much as I normally disagree with Russell Norman and his politics, even not agreeing with his Tibet stand, I certainly do not agree with the Chinese, or any other countries, security detail in handling protesters this way. Short of an actual physical threat to the Chinese politician, I would say the Chinese security forces have no right to treat someone (citizen or not) demonstrating in this way.
I want to see the government react to this very strongly.
I can just imagine the reaction of most people of a US security detail had tried to deal a protester in the same way.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
One thing we are all losing sight of here.
This incident is precisely what Russel Norman and his Green party would have loved to have happen, but would never have dared hope would occur. All their wildest dreams have come true.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Norman is the co-leader of the third largest group in parliament. The behavior he displayed is not the sort of behavior security personnel would expect from a person in such a role, and to be fair(ish), the chinese security personnel would have not had the slightest idea who this person was and why he was there.
Their response was a preconditioned one and will have ructions in diplomatic circles in both parties..
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
i don’t like either CCP or Tibetan separatist
Russel acting like an idiot, inspired by Bethone much? “Green Party co-leader Russel Norman is restrained by Chinese and NZ police officers. Photo / Mark Mitchell”
And why still pulling a Tibetan flag? Tibet has nothing to do with Russel, it’s not recognized as a country and the flag has no meaning to average Chinese to Tibetans.
Why not pulling a Chinese flag and ask for democracy for EVERY Chinese?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Do the guards have diplomatic immunity? Diplomatic immunity is effectively a promise by the executive arm of government not to arrest or prosecute a representive of a foreign government. It of course taken for granted that ambassadors and other senior diplomatic staff have diplomatic immunity. Heads of state would also have immunity. Junior embassy staff eg passport issuers would not usually have diplomatic immunity, but I would not be surprised if the US Marines guarding the US Embassy in Wellington do.
A state is not obliged to allow anyone waving a diplomatic passport into its country, but if it does so the immunity would apply and the whole basis of diplomatic immunity is the immune person cannot be ambushed in the host’s country by for example claiming the immunity is unlawful. For example a NZ diplomat posted to China needs to obtain a Chinese visa in the usual manner.
It is reasonable that the Chinese Vice-president’s entered on the basis they had diplomatic immunity. If they did not, the visit may never have occurred. Similar to the USA’s requirement that Secret Service agents shall be allowed to have firearms when accompanying the President on foreign visits. NZ has much greater incentives for the visit to occur, than the incentives of some world leaders to visit, so the latter can often visit on their terms, not NZ’s terms. This of course puts the host government between a rock and a hard place.
On this basis it is doubtful if the guard can be prosecuted. The guard can probably be declared persona non grata and sent packing but that wou;d be about all.
If the Left wants to point fingers at John Key over this, let not forget that Labour people effectively put Nick Kelly in the slammer during Helen Clark’s Leader’s Ralley some years ago. He was never charged for trespass.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Yes I remember the incident with Hogson in Dunedin, I also remember many people now outraged by this incident attacking the women in Dunedin and considered actions such as ripping up posters and using force to prevent a sign being lifted to be trival.
Funny how free speech was so unimportant then.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Will this day… now be called… bash a ginga day.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
Why does Norman want to meddle in China’s internal affairs? He’s like George Bush, but with an Aussie accent.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
IMHO Norman should be bought before the Speaker and on a charge of behaviour bringing the Parliament into disrepute and the Chinese guards should be arrested by the Police and charged with common assault and bought before the District Court and then deported.
And the Chinese government should be told thats how we do it in NZ and it happened in NZ so tough shit. The Chinese would back off big time if JK styood up to them Like all bully boys they rely on their enemies cowtowing to them.
When you take a stand they step back. Afterall what else are thry going to do. Nuke us Nah. Rip up the FTA Nah. We have a chance to here to make a moral stand and show them and the rest of the world we might be small but we ant gutless.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
“We have a chance to here to make a moral stand and show them and the rest of the world we might be small but we ant gutless”
We already had ETS coming in two weeks, what else do we need.
In international politics, moral stand alone is never gonna affect anything.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
“IMHO Norman should be bought before the Speaker and on a charge of behaviour bringing the Parliament into disrepute”
Tempting, but you start doing that you might as well round up the whole Green party. Then they’d insist on the same for the ACT party and it would get out of hand very quickly
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Under National we are small and gutless… ( the realities of trade) under Labour we were small and stupid… ( under the realities of Labour MPs).
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
The more I think about this the more it annoys me. There is little doubt in my mind that the only reason Norman was able to get so close to cause the Chinese Vice-President’s people to think he might constitute a risk to their boss is the fact that he is an MP. He acted like a disrespectful gibbon, and I’m sure that action has caused this country considerable embarrassment. He’s got every right to protest, but using his position as an MP to get into this guy’s face was very poor form indeed. I’m quite sure I’ll find myself in a minority though, especially when it comes to the media coverage. Norman will be allowed to milk it shamelessly.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
he might constitute a risk to their boss
Oh, so he’s allergic to Tibetan flags? That makes more sense.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Well, I’m going to disagree with many, as much as I find Norman a hypocritical buffoon, he is well within his rights and the Chinese security detail need to be arrested immediately. That was an obvious piece of common assault, and no security detail should have the right to do what they did, or we’re all the poorer.
I doubt myself that the security detail has diplomatic immunity, but a deal can be struck evicting the offender(s) with immediate effect. If you don’t stand up to bullies, you will simply get trampled upon again and again.
Of course at the same time it is rather schadenfreudish to see one fascist pushed around by another.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
“He acted like a disrespectful gibbon,”
Yes he did.
But the point is that he’s *our* disrespectful gibbon, and the chinese should leave him alone!
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
And another thing, I know we like to think we’re all cool and low key in this country, but when are our diplomatic protection and other police going to get their shit together? The PM gets put in a headlock by a lunatic at Waitangi, then another lunatic jumps on his VIP car in Christchurch last week, just moments after he got out of the car, and today another lunatic gets in the face of the Chinese Vice-President. We are not protecting our or visiting VIPs very well at all!
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
lyndon, I made the point earlier that while you and I know that Russel Norman’s intentions were peaceful, how, in a split second, are the Chinese Vice-President’s security staff supposed to know he’s not intending anything more malicious? I think they probably behaved entirely appropriately, given the circumstances.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Norman should get over it. You be provocative, you get a response. What did he expect?
The Chinese coming to our country and being a bit bolshy, but spending $xx million to set up an education institute, still leaves NZ better off.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
So they thought he was holding a flag with malice aforethought?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
We could always do what they did in that comedy film years ago The Mouse that Roared. We could declare war on the Chinese and then surrender and watch the aid money pouring in.
Ole PhilU would be in clover. As much rice as he could eat 24/7
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
I was OK with the Chinese pushing him back a bit – someone clearly demonstrating and very close is a security risk – how were they to know he wouldn’t throw paint on him or something.
But they weren’t entitled to try to cover up his flag, nor to take it off him. That’s where they crossed the line. They can protect him from physical risks, but not from people lawfully protesting.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
“LOOK, LOOK! I’M BEING REPRESSED!”
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
It’s more about the proximity than the flag lyndon, and how you’d react if you were a security officer protecting the life of an important person, but I’m sure that after half an hour’s discussion we’d still see this issue differently.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Mattew Flanagann: “Yes I remember the incident with Hogson in Dunedin, I also remember many people now outraged by this incident attacking the women in Dunedin and considered actions such as ripping up posters and using force to prevent a sign being lifted to be trival.”
Hardly suprising you remember that Matt….it was after all your wife Madeline and her seemingly constantly wayward breasts that were involved…
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2006/08/the_press_settles.html
“Funny how free speech was so unimportant then.”
Funny how contextual details of a personal nature are so unimportant to you now….
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
It’s hard to “see” things at all without having seen them.
There were other people around by the look of pics, was Norman in a public area? Was he doing anything unlawfully? Was he doing anything out of the ordinary for that sort of situation (flag and banner waving is not uncommon)?
Regardless, it’s turned out to be a bad move by the Chinese, drawing attention to something they presumably wanted suppressed, and possibly acted unlawfully at the same time.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Auberon
Agree with you that the security guards wouldn’t have known who Norman is. And with that in mind, it isn’t inconceivable for the guards to consider that behind the flag there could be a weapon.
Had it been Obama visiting, I wouldn’t be surprised if Norman pulls something stupid and gets treated similarly by the Secret Service agents.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
I see the Herald have now changed to caption to read;
“Green Party co-leader Russel Norman is restrained by Chinese and New Zealand police officers as he attempts to display the Tibetan flag during the arrival of Vice-President Xi JinPing. Photo / Mark Mitchell”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/image.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10652789&gallery_id=112030#6962847
it appears the chinese security were not acting alone, and that NZ police were restraining him whilst he was trying to display the flag, not just retrieve it
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Ed Snack is dead right. For probably the first time, I support Russel Norman.
The Bullies of Beijing stand to buy vast amounts of our produce for their mushrooming middle class, so it’s a bit of a tricky one. But in the end, bullying is bullying and we have to stand up to it.
And why are we showing their top generals around our military bases? Since when were we allies of a communist dictatorship?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Ed Snack>I doubt myself that the security detail has diplomatic immunity, but a deal can be struck evicting the offender(s) with immediate effect.
Evicting the security detail achieves two things:
1. Makes NZ responsible for security. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCj57Fk67qc) is how Obama travels. NZ just can’t do this… we don’t have enough police, ours can’t even stop a green bogan jumping on Key’s car, and no one wants to risk having a foreign head of state killed or assaulted in NZ. No one more important than the King of Tonga will ever visit NZ.
2. It creates an international incident. Do we really want Norman to have essentially decided NZ’s foreign policy single handed?
But of course the Chinese security guys have diplomatic immunity. And a signed agreement between our foreign affairs people and theirs that determines their rights in NZ.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Hmm. I’m interested in these “constantly wayward breasts”. They have a life of their own? Mads doesn’t wear a bra? It’s just a novel concept that I’d like to learn about.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
NoCash,
“And with that in mind, it isn’t inconceivable for the guards to consider that behind the flag there could be a weapon.”
So they responded with that classic security tactic – placing an umbrella over the potential threat. ‘Cause everyone knows magic security umbrella’s can stop bullets.
FFS – what next … “the flag could have been the mouth of a wormhole to another dimension … they just couldn’t take the risk”.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
Farrar says:
The Chinese security guards obviously exceeded their brief, and there should be consequences for that. Unless Dr Norman was a physical threat to the Vice-President, they had no right to manhandle him.
Keeping an embarrassing sign out of sight is not a legitimate reason.
My God, the next Emperor of the World comes here,
right into the heart of our Country,
and takes over our Police.
Suckling pink tie trader John Key will do nothing
Are we so pathetic and small that we do not own our own Country.
or foreshore,
where is there any New Zealand strength ,
I commend Norman Russell Farrar for the leadership vigill,
as Rod Donald did years ago,
Farrar has my respect for this article
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
Why do we pander to this dictatorship, yet jump up and down in howls of outrage about Commodore Frank Bainimarama in Fiji. When will he be invited over to look around military bases, let his bodyguards beat up Russel Norman, and be generally pandered to?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Trade Comrade. Trade.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
John Ansell
I am sorry mate, but I cannot feel any sympathy for Red Russ.
It is the epitome of Green party Hypocrisy for Norman to be protesting in support of human rights in a foreign land when we all know that the NZ Green party would strip so many Kiwis of their human rights in a heartbeat (gone by lunch time) if we were ever dumb enough to give them the power.
The Greens idea of democracy differs greatly from mine and 93.28% of my fellow Kiwis, remember, they are still one of the parties that strongly supports EFA, they are dead against any freedom of speech when that speech does not agree with their communist views.
Need I remind you that the Greens are also happy to persecute any organisation (the Brethren as an example) that dares speak out against them, sure, they might pass legislation with a smile on their face but the real reason is to stifle or silence anybody with a dissenting view.
In short, Comrade Norman got what he deserved.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Good one bb, the law should only apply to people you agree with.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
So, bb … by your reasoning, the fact David Garrett wants to lock up large numbers of Kiwis for a long period of time means we should have no qualms about an Israeli commando unit whipping him off to an undisclosed location for a lengthy period of detention without trial?
Oh – I LIKE this style of argument!
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Might be enough to turn Red Russell Blue, that would not be a bad outcome.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
THis clown is a member of our parliment, not elected but a MP.
There are ways for him to register dis-satisfaction without behaving like a drunk 16 year old, this infantile protesting shit is attention seeking behaviour of the worst kind,, you put yourself in this position be prepared for the consequences.
Funny thing is: Lefty wankers like this: generally hate the police, disregard the statutes of our country if it doesn’t suit them and then run off to the police first sign of someone not prepared to take their shit.
Good on the Chinese, these greems are jusrt an emabarassment.
I would have been happy to have seen the umbrella firmly kicked up his arse, squeal to the cops now Russell you nob.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
I’m sure that after half an hour’s discussion we’d still see this issue differently.
I just wanted to compilement the reasonableness of that comment.
…
So I feel a bit of a twit saying it looks more and more like he was just standing there with a flag.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
Pete and AG
Nowhere did I say that I agreed with the actions of the Chinese security officers, all I said is that I have no sympathy for Red Russ.
But don’t let anything like the facts get in the way of your argument.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
@Pauleastbay 5:20 pm
Um, didn’t I see a lot of you guys here (not necessarily you, Pauleastbay), led by DPF himself, taking to the streets to protest against the Electoral Finance Bill.
Good for the goose, good for the gander. That’s what free speech is all about.
Some of you here who purport to be libertarians are revealing yourselves as actually supporting authoritarian thuggery.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
Toad>Some of you here who purport to be libertarians are revealing yourselves as actually supporting authoritarian thuggery.
Keith Locke supported the Khmer Rouge, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and authoritarian thugs Hamas over democratic Israel a few weeks ago.
Is there any consistency or principle in Green policy making, or do you just make it up as you go along?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
- “I think it’s pretty outrageous that Chinese security can come to our country and push around an elected Member of Parliament”
That’s right, Russell. It’s not like you’re a commoner or anything. You’re a member of this country’s political elite for goodness sake!
Twat.
If I’d been in the crown I’d have shouted “look out, he’s got a gun!”
His whole ugly agenda is predicated on statist thuggery and denial of property rights and of freedom of speech. He has 99% in common with the authoritarian Chinese regime (the other 1% being he’s not Chinese) and yet there he is getting his photo opportunity.
China in Tibet absolutely represents his leftist ideology in action. That’s why he wasn’t complaining about the equivalent oppression of the 1.3 billion Chinese people themselves; only their Tibetan neighbours.
Vote:Apparently state violence is only a problem when it crosses an invisible and entirely arbitrary line on the map. Which means in the confused mind of this hypocritical self-publicist it’s actually some racial/nationalist issue that’s the problem, rather than the oppression per se. If it was domestic Tibetan communist tyranny you wouldn’t hear a peep out of him.
June 18th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
@Patrick Starr 3:57 pm
Look at the TVNZ video of the event. Your claim is complete bullshit, Patrick.
BTW, good on those like John Ansell who are true to their principles here, rather than abandon them when they see an opportunity to slag off the Greens.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Lastmanstanding – I can imagine NZ Govt chartering some old tub to carry soldiers dressed in medieval uniforms and with bows and arrows (all supplied by Weta) to the Yangtse River.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
“communist dictatorship”?? update dictionary time?
It’s anything but communist.
It is far from western democacy but I wouldn’t call it dictatorship neither.
“Dictator is government by A dictator, or a country which is ruled by A dictator or by a very strict and harsh government”.
The balance of different powers within CCP is quite complicated. It’s more like groups of vested interests balancing out in a process nobody has attempted before (but still a pyramid shaped social eco model and the bottom suffers the most).
“Very strict and harsh” is up to debate. For pro-democracy activists and separatists, quite likely. But average Wong with their own apartments and some with private vehicles wouldn’t necessarily agree.
I guess for some westerners it’s like reading Koran.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
Toad
“Good for the goose, good for the gander. That’s what free speech is all about.”
You and your fellow Greens have no bloody right to use the term ‘free speech’.
Let me fix it for you, “Good for the goose, good for the gander. That’s what state approved speech is all about.”
That is more in line with Green party ideals.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
I’m torn, can I bring myself to defend Wussell…..
Nah, just cant do it – while he has the right to protest, he only went there to cause a scene, and get media attention. Both are as bad as each other IMO….
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
bb: “Nowhere did I say that I agreed with the actions of the Chinese security officers”
bb: “In short, Comrade Norman got what he deserved.”
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
He’s voice is not loud enough and he’s chanting the wrong slogan.
Free the Chinese, not just Tibet!
And he should chant it in mandarin.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
” gimmee my flag back…gimmee my flag back “…what a wowser nancy boy..,
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
Toad
Protesting against the Electoral Finace Bill was attention seeking behaviour of the worst kind as well.
Protest marching full stop is a waste of time. So very “student”. Bit like getting wound up on blog threads, – a bit of humour, a bit of learning but changes bugger all
Where is Norman over Zimbabwe, Sudan,? obviously not trendy enough, where’s Locke. ? he would have been there for sure if there was a Chinese Jew who had US citizenship involved. Like I said the greens are an embarassment to themselves and to our country
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
This is a public relations disaster for New Zealand; particularly with the world cup just around the corner.
The co-leader of a parliamentary political party is going to be beamed around the world wearing a suit and tie manufactured in 1976 and a haircut designed in 1967.
Its official: we are a nation of Hobbits wearing shit kit. We fit the aussies up by letting them lay claim to Russell Crowe and the bastards fit us up with Russell Norman; perennial champion of retro crappo couture.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
Toad
” Your claim is complete bullshit, Patrick.”
You owe Patrick an apology, I have just watched TV One news, it clearly shows a NZ security officer (or member of the DP squad) restraining Norman.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
What a bunch of self righteous toss pots .
Without China NZ would be bankrupt.
With the Greens assistance we traveled a fair way down that track until we sent them and their Marxist sheila friend to New York.
Get off your too fat horses and eat some humble pie and bow down to the next leader of our third largest trading partner, our savior from the latest financial crisis and our partner of the future.
Who cares about a stupid fuckwit that has nothing better to do than wave a flag in an attempt too incite violence.
A stupid Australian fuckwit at that. One who has had all his lifes privileges paid for by the same said China and those of us whop still pay taxes in this country.
A useless list MP who adds nothing to our country and nothing to our wealth as individuals. Another trougher like so many others. Another useless prick that is now going to waste more of our money wasting police time. If he can’t tell when we should treat our visitors with respect then he needs a good lesson in manners.
Send him to the dole que along with Carter et al.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 6:44 pm
Its official: we are a nation of Hobbits wearing shit kit. We fit the aussies up by letting them lay claim to Russell Crowe and the bastards fit us up with Russell Norman; perennial champion of retro crappo couture.
HOHo. So true.
Australiasia one Slovenka nil
Yeh that’s us.
P.S> I see in the news yesterday that we are about to repatriate Phar Laps skeleton back to them as well.
Vote:Do you think we could send Russel in its skin.(Norman that is.) Colours about right from memory.
June 18th, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Since 1984 John, after we gave the US the fingers.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Yes V2, we should.
And we should advertise the fact on the fuselages of the international Air NZ fleet.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 6:55 pm
Toad,
Isn’t it hypocritical of you to post here when you know full well that dissent and criticism is suppressed on Frog blog?
I mean, it’s pretty rich isn’t it.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
@Viking2 6:38 pm
Nice parody! (At least I hope it was parody!!!)
@reid 6:46 pm
Since when were we allies of a communist dictatorship?
Um, since Goff and Clark signed the FTA agreement with China, which Key and his government now also strongly support. A plague upon both their houses.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Bolger helped it along as well re: turning down the F-16s and refusing to re-instate ANZUS II.
Or was it Shipley re: F-16s and Bolger re: ANZUS? Can’t recall.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
- “Goff and Clark signed the FTA agreement with China, which Key and his government now also strongly support. A plague upon both their houses.”
Yeah. Freedom sucks, doesn’t it.
We need people like you dictating who we can deal with.
Fuck off.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
@wat dabney 7:05 pm
Are you such a dork that you don’t see where the sort of “freedom” you advocate leads? In China it frequently leads to dissidents being assaulted, jailed, or even summarily executed- all in the name of the economic freedom of the rich and the powerful over the social freedom of the poor and the dispossessed.
I saw a lot of you over at frogblog a while ago wat, and your analysis is totally inconsistent and absolute crap.
As an purported advocate of “freedom”, how can you advocate the denial of freedom of speech?
That is what anyone who is challenging Russel Norman’s stand against the Chinese imperialist and dictatorial regime is doing.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Toad WRONG.
We are saying that a useless spineless nobody from Aussie who would impose draconian measures upon our population should respect a visitor to our house.
If he can’t respect a visitor to our house then he should piss off back where he came.
And that’s the nub of the issue. That’s the bit that DPF got wrong.
None, well most of us, consider that Norman shouldn’t be able to air his views but that he should do so at the appropriate place and time, neither of which was today.
Basic common courtesy to a VIP guest. Worse he is paid by the very Govt. that allows him that choice. Time Parliamentary welfare was reigned in along with their expenses.
Interesting that it was left to Goff to explain to the gentleman about the rights of Kiwi’s to their views. Full marks. At least some of our leaders have it right, unlike Gerry wannabe this morning. Broken down carpenter and wanna be pollie telling the Chairman of two of our biggest companies to shut the fuck up.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Well, so is yours toad – nah nah nah.
I mean, if we did things your way, our NZ-China FTA would vanish in a puff of smoke and things would become quite a bit more difficult for many years to come. And all of this time, China has not adjusted it’s behavior in Tibet IN ANY WAY. I don’t mean that lightly toad. I mean literally that your approach if adopted would condemn NZ to a bad turning I mean a potentially disastrous turning, for absolutely precisely zero outcome.
China appears to hold NZ in a special place given what’s been happening for several decades. Possibly it dates back to Rewi Alley I don’t know. But it’s perceptible. We’d blow that away totally and permanently – it would never come back. Is that a good thing, or a bad thing?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
“He acted like a disrespectful gibbon,”
Why does an unelected autocrat deserve respect? Next you’ll be asking us to respect Phil Goff.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Many good reason to do so Sam, including the FTA with China.
Separate the man and his quiet achievements from the past politics and the current faction struggles and you will find an interesting person who has worked very hard oversea’s on our behalf.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 8:09 pm
James
My wife’s breasts were not involved, a point that has already been pointed out to you when you made the same false claim in another blog recently. A simple perusal of her complaint, Hogson’s statement, the police reports, media releases, and the diplomatic protection squads statement would all show this and, as I said, you have been informed of this already.
But your comment illustrates quite nicely my point, as has been pointed out to you in the past, the only person to refer to my wife’s breasts was Critic, it was done to ridicule her for complaining about the incident in question. A few years latter the editor that published this ridicule became a press secretary for the Greens.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 8:12 pm
Toad,
- “Are you such a dork that you don’t see where the sort of “freedom” you advocate leads? In China it frequently leads to dissidents being assaulted, jailed, or even summarily executed-”
Let’s me see if I understand you.
You are blaming freedom for dissidents being executed.
Normal people would blame the state which oppresses people and murders them.
But not you. You blame “freedom.”
And what you are advocating is the denial of my freedom to trade the fruits of my labour peacefully and cooperatively with whoever I want.
If I were to breach your proposed restrictions on my freedom you would have the police on me.
If I resisted them, they would use anything up to and including lethal force against me.
So enough of your sanctimony about such freedoms leading to assault by the state. That’s precisely the punishment you are yourself proposing for any New Zealanders who dare to exercise their right to dispose of their own property as they see fit.
“I saw a lot of you over at frogblog a while ago wat, and your analysis is totally inconsistent and absolute crap.”
Well we won’t know now, will we. Because postings were suddenly suppressed.
No announcement, mind you. No acknowledgment of the censorship.
Nobody would know that the Green Party is engaged in silencing debate and criticism.
Postings just didn’t show up.
They were as respectful as everyone else on the board, but they contradicted the statist line and advocated individual liberty.
And they questioned your various environmental panics which you propogate so carefully, and linked to the science and statistics which exposed you.
And then, like I said, they just stopped showing up…
Funny that.
“As an purported advocate of “freedom”, how can you advocate the denial of freedom of speech?”
Er, I don’t. That’s just a lie on your part.
You won’t find a single posting from me advocating any such thing.
What you may well find are posting deploring your own criminalising of free speech with the electoral finance act censorship.
But I’m sure you have a “good excuse” for your own criminalising of free speech. Just like the Chinese government has good excuses.
But that brings us back to your blog again. You claim to support free speech, but your own blog secretly censors criticism.
Are we supposed to believe that if you people got into a position of serious power you would be any different to the Chinese government, when you have shown that your first instinct is to suppress critisism?
“That is what anyone who is challenging Russel Norman’s stand against the Chinese imperialist and dictatorial regime is doing.”
Er, no. We’re simply pointing out what a hypocrite he is, since his own agenda is not noticeably different to that of the Chinese state in that it supposes the supremacy of the state over the individual. You yourself have just argued for the state’s right to control my economic activity, like it was of no consequence whatsoever.
How easily you assume the right to force others to comply with your wishes.
And you are conveniently ignoring the 800lb gorilla, which is that Russell was not opposing the murderous Chinese state and its oppression of human rights, he was only opposing it in a very specific geographical area marked as “Tibet” on the map.
So Russell comes out of this exposed as nothing but a nationalist, which, ethically speaking, is no different from a racist.
On the right we treat everyone as an individual, no matter what race they are or where on the globe they were born. There is no “them” and no “us.” There are no countries, no nations. Only people.
Russell, by making his photo opportunity about people in Tibet rather than about all people, shows the rank ugliness of his nationalist/statist ideology.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 8:27 pm
James wrote:
Trust you to bring up my breasts. I held up a speed kills sign, behind Helen Clark, in a public place. Pete Hodgson grabbed my arm and pulled it down to keep my sign out of the camera shot. Pete Hodgson claimed he was protecting the Prime Minister from the imminent threat the piece of newsprint I was brandishing apparently posed. The diplomatic protection squad, who are trained in threat assessment, agreed with my assessment – Hodgson simply wanted my sign out of camera shot. A student newspaper, ironically edited by a member of the Green Party, brought up my breasts in an attempt to minimise the affront to my freedom of speech. Now it seems that James can be relied on to bring them up every time this issue comes up. Creep.
PaulL wrote:
Matt and only Matt knows the answer to your questions.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
To paraphrase Russel Norman:
“What right does a whinging ginger communist moron have to come to our country, and restrict our freedom of speech by way of the EFA?”
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
The thing I’d like the Greens to comment upon is whether Norman provoked the incident.
The TV footage shows him literally draping the flag right over the heads and eyes of the various security details.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
I had a look at the video:
http://tinyurl.com/34u3wyb
Had a good laugh. Norman is pathetic.
But take a close look at the video. At about 17 seconds. Norman is seen barging the chinese guy out of the way – it seems like Norman should be the one up for assault.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Viking2 7:29 pm
a useless spineless nobody from Aussie
Bigoted against nationality!
should respect a visitor to our house.
Only if they deserve respect, which by reacting violently to a peaceful protest, they don’t!
he should piss off back where he came.
On that basis, so should you, unless you can whakapapa to tangata whenua.
And that’s the nub of the issue. That’s the bit that DPF got wrong.
No, much as I often disagree with DPF, that is the bit he has got completely right here.
None, well most of us, consider that Norman shouldn’t be able to air his views but that he should do so at the appropriate place and time, neither of which was today.
You anti-democratic prick!
You are no better than the bigots who tried 20 years ago to say people shouldn’t be allowed to talk about peace at an ANZAC service. Now mot RSAs welcome that. Society has moved on, suppression of free speech is unacceptable in New Zealand society these days (apart, I guess, for a few neanderthalic characters who inhabit the comments thread here).
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
@ Zhumao 9:05 pm
FFS, Russel Norman was standing on his own, holding a flag, saying a few things supporting Tibetan independence, and not engagisn physically with anyone.
Who is the aggressor here? Clearly it is the Chinese security guard who chose to physically hassle him! Glad it was Russel there, and not me. I would have been very tempted to deck the security guy (but hope I could have restrained myself, as Russel did).
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:34 pm
So did I and yes he is.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
Toad
“On that basis, so should you, unless you can whakapapa to tangata whenua.”
Now you are getting really desperate, anybody born here is an indigenous Kiwi, I do not give a flying fuck what you or the rest of the Greens say, an indigenous Kiwi can be brown, yellow, white, red or black and no amount of bullshit from a bunch of communist liberals suffering from the very worst case of guilty white syndrome is ever going to change that.
I do find it interesting that you have not attempted to refute the accusations made by me and many others that the Greens are hypocritical when it comes to demanding freedom in a foreign land when you people are the very ones who would take away so many of our freedoms in a heartbeat.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:41 pm
“Who is the aggressor here?”
It was clearly Comrade Norman who was the aggressor Toad, he was acting in an aggressive manner.
By the way, have you apologised to Patrick yet?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
You mean the serious ones charged with protecting the life of China’s Vice-President, whom Norman was trying to get in front of, all the time? You mean that one? The super-duper-kung-fu-hard-step-in-front-of-a-bullet-anytime-hoo-rar-mf, who’s job it is to step meekly aside when the principal is arriving right then? Of course they should have just allowed Wussell a cwear shot, shouldn’t they. After all, who woulda thunk, were you a high-level security guard from China, that on a low-level entrance you’d get this idiot?
If I was the MSM, I’d be praising the artful and gentle way our great friends dealt with this unfortunate anomaly within our political anatomy and we promise not to ever let him out again.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
The US president has his security detail out in force too when he goes overseas. And if Norman had tried the same sort of stunt on Obama he could well have ended up getting shot.
Who is the aggressor here? Clearly it is the Chinese security guard who chose to physically hassle him!
You are being disingenuous toad.
Look at the video again:
http://tinyurl.com/34u3wyb
Clearly, unless one is wilfully blind, Norman is physically pushing the chinese guy out of the way.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
“I would have been very tempted to deck the security guy (but hope I could have restrained myself, as Russel did)”
baww haw haw little grasshopper – the chinese security guard would have killed you with a spinning dragon claw, (whilst you would have tried to defend with just a ganja drag )
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
yeah, thanks BB
hey you ageing hippie toady ….where’s my apology?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Russell Norman is a stupid, ignorant, rude, selfish prick. Why piss off the VP of a country that may one day be our biggest trading partner. It seems he feels his idealogy is more important than the living standards of all New Zealanders. Such a person is not fit to be an MP, list or elected.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
Chinese communist scuffles with Australian communist. Ho hum.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
@Patrick Starr 9:55 pm
WTF am I meant to apologise for. I’m not Chris Carter FFS! If I have made a mis-statement in fact, or have posted something offensive (which I try very hard not to, unlike many other commenters here), I will apologise. But tell me what comment you would like me to apologise for – I must have missed the request, although i saw bruv’s earlier response.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
Toad
You could start by apologising for this racist piece of rubbish
“On that basis, so should you, unless you can whakapapa to tangata whenua.”
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:36 pm
@Muzza M (102) 10:05 pm
I don’t want to live in or support an authoritarian dictatorship, Muzza M. If you do, there is an obvious place for you to emigrate to. Strangely, I suspect they already have in China enough of all the skills you could bring, so you may not be a welcome migrant.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
“WTF am I meant to apologise for”
coz Russell started it!
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Zhumao >Look at the video again: http://tinyurl.com/34u3wyb Clearly, unless one is wilfully blind, Norman is physically pushing the chinese guy out of the way.
You’re right. Norman definitely assaulted the Chinese man first. I wonder if he will press charges?
But I couldn’t help laughing while I watched the clip. Norman comes across as a ginger Frank Spencer, waving his flag and repeating “freedom for Tibet” in his meek little voice while no one else joins in. This is the sort of politics that 17 year old emo girls pursue, not adults who are asking us to vote them in to government.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
@big bruv 10:33 pm
Out of context, bruv. It was in response to a comment from Viking2 that Russel Norman “should piss off back where he came.”
I responded “On that basis, so should you, unless you can whakapapa to tangata whenua.”
I don’t support that basis. Those of us who are citizens or residents but not tangata whenua have a right to live here, and that right is conferred by the Treaty of Waitangi. Much as you and Viking2 may not like it, that includes Russel.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:52 pm
” gimmee back my flag …gimmee back my flag “… ( at that point the chinese should have known Red Russ was no threat)
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
@davidp 10:43 pm
Hey, they will be 18 by the next election. The Greens want their votes.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
Perhaps all the experts on China here could explain how a country of 1.1 billion can run a parliamentary democracy. I’d really like to hear it. I guess the Parliament would be about 35,000 based on our 120 MPs for 4.5 million. On that basis, China could hold its parliament in the birdcage I suppose. Be a bit difficult raising a point of order I reckon.
But go ahead; please explain how a parliamentary democracy would work in a country of that size.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
@Gooner – I’d say a competent 120 could look after 1.1billion… as opposed to the mostly useless 120 troughers who fail to look after anything more than themselves here in NZ.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
“please explain how a parliamentary democracy would work in a country of that size.”
Why?
Who cares?
They are who they are.
And it’s working, right now.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:06 pm
@Gooner 10:55 pm
The United States does it (sort of) with a little over a quarter of China’s population. India does it (sort of) with a similar population to China. Although neither are ideal in democratic principle.
So why can’t China at least move some way in the direction of democracy?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
“So why can’t China at least move some way in the direction of democracy?”
Because its govt doesn’t want it to.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
I’ve stayed in mainland china 4 times in the past 4 years and it seems to be working fine. wtf is everyones problem with the place? I feel safer walking down their streets at night than I do here
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
OK, so where was Norman when the Wellington power network was sold into Chinese hands under Labour. Perhaps I missed it that time? But hey, what are they buying this time? ACC perhaps?
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
David having just now seen the video footage on the news I now object to Russell Norman’s situation being compared to mine. When I held up my speed kills sign behind the cluster of people around Helen Clark I was careful to not touch anyone and to keep distance between myself and those around me. Contrast that with Russell Norman pushing his way into the cluster, dropping the flag on the heads of the Chinese who, not surprisingly from what I saw, tore it away from him – I’d tear it off him too if he dropped it on my head when I was trying to do my job. What he did did not match up with my definition of a peaceful protest.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Patrick, absolutely spot on. I have been many times over the last few years and it is a far safer place than here. They also get things done. Want a motorway? In the words of Gordon Ramsay – DONE.
Toad, about 99.5% of Chinese love their country and have no problem with how it operates. The western media are incredibly biased against it, pointing to the .5% rather than the 99.5%.
That video of Norman is hilarious “give me my flag back, give me my flag back”. He sounds like a 6yr old who has spilt his ice cream on the pavement. Pathetic.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
Chinese communist scuffles with Australian communist. Ho hum.
The Maoists and the Khrushchev faction never did get on with one another.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:25 pm
Looks like Lockwood Smith and the Clerk of the House should draw up a protocol sheet for visiting foreign politicians and their “entourages” reminding them of how to behave in the grounds of Parliament. Including the following:
1) Any legitimate security concerns should be addressed to, and dealt with, by the Diplomatic Protection Squad and Parliamentary Security.
2) The Speaker of The House is responsible for enforcing the rules surrounding protest action on the grounds. Those functions have not been, and never will be outsourced, so your help is neither necessary nor welcome.
3) In New Zealand, we expect our politicians, diplomats and civil servants to respect the laws and customs of other sovereign nations even if we think they’re weird or straight out fucking crazy. It would be nice to have that courtesy repaid.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
The United States does it (sort of) with a little over a quarter of China’s population. India does it (sort of) with a similar population to China. Although neither are ideal in democratic principle.
So why can’t China at least move some way in the direction of democracy?
Because the United States has a large educated middle class. That is why.
And it is much harder to rule a country with four or five times the population with 1/6 the arable land per capita that the US has.
In every single country which has ‘democracy’ without this prerequisite, there is chaos, riots, and violence at election time – look at what happened in Kenya a couple of years back – people running round chopping people up.
Look at South Africa. 16 years after the fall of apartheid have the conditions of the black majority really improved simply because they have democracy? Of course not. In fact life expectancy for blacks declined almost immediately after the transfer of power, from 61 in 1994 to 51 now. South Africa is a basketcase in terms of crime, poverty, drug abuse, and AIDS.
And did Russia suddenly become a paradise after the fall of communism? Of course not. They similarly experienced a dramatic decline in life expectancy.
If we consider India. India is surely the country which is most directly comparable to China. China achieved independence in 1949 (she had a semi-colonial status before then), and India in 1947. Both are large populous Asian nations with a large rural population.
Yet China even under Mao had achieved massive gains in life expectancy, literacy, and industrialisation even as early as 1976. In fact in 1976 China’s life expectancy at the time (64.9 years) was already double what it was in 1949, and already higher than what India’s is today (63.7 years). China’s life expectancy now is obviously a lot higher that it was in 1976 – now 73.1 which is approaching the level of middle income European countries, even though her GDP per capita is still quite low.
Female literacy in India is about 50%, in China it is 47%. Even 40 years ago during the Cultural Revolution, the poorest villager received a rudimentary education, and basic health care. That is why one can meet illiterate Chinese women in their 40s quite frequently from South East Asia, but rarely from China.
It is all very well, and perhaps justifiable, to criticise lack of freedoms, real or perceived in China. But then Chinese for the moment, value stability over all else. After all China went through almost a century and a half of disastrous foreign invasions, civil war, rule by warlords – basically what Somalia is today many times over, right up until 1949, Chinese are prepared to forgo some freedoms (in fact they forgo very few freedoms) for stability.
And the ruling communists are right not to risk the progress of recent decades for the chaos of democracy. Chaos will bring huge suffering to China. For now the main thing is to reduce poverty and that is what the Chinese government has been doing – at a rate unprecedented in all of human history.
I ask those pro-democracy people here. If you had no choice apart from India and South Africa on the one hand, and China on the other hand, where would you rather your children be born? Where would they have the best chance for improving prospects? Where would they have the best chance of surviving infancy?
Vote:The answer is obvious.
June 18th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
Correction to previous post:
Vote:“female literacy in India is about 50%, in China it is 87%.”
June 18th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
see?
This is why I think it’s an excellent all-round idea to be great friends as often as possible.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
The western media are incredibly biased against it, pointing to the .5% rather than the 99.5%.
That is so true. In a country as vast as China, one can always find stories that are sad, terrible, tragic, atrocious. And it is right to report on these. But only reporting on these means the overall picture is completely misrepresented. Reporting should be more balanced.
In fact if you read the Chinese papers, the Chinese government websites, like China Daily, their reporting on the West is generally fair and mostly positive. There is also a lot of honest reporting on the problems which China faces.
Even a cursory glance at front page of the China Daily would show that China could hardly be classed as totalitarian:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/
Chinese communist scuffles with Australian communist. Ho hum.
It would be rather a superficial analysis to say that the leftists such as the Greens would have anything in common with the communists in China (or the former Soviet Union). For one,the Soviet Union and China have always been big, like real big, on industrial development. They are true materialists. And staunch patriots (in spite of their averred internationlism).
The Greens are mystics, and anti-science, anti-progress. That is why they love the Dalai Lama so much.
They have little in common with Chinese communists. In any case Mao said he liked dealing with ‘rightists’ like Nixon, a lot more than liberals.
The Chinese communist party now would have much more in common with the political right of many Western countries than with the John Mintos, Norman Russells, or Sue Bradfords (in spite of her previous professed Maoism) of the West.
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 11:59 pm
Gooner, I guess you could ask the Indians.
Now I’m not sure how serious some of you more rabid commenters are, but surely the test of a democracy is what we do when our worst enemy wishes to express himself as he sees fit within the bounds of the law.
Russel Norman is not my worst enemy, but there can’t be many people with whom I’ve got less in common politically.
But if the law says Russel has the right to stand there holding a flag, be it Tibetan or Taiwanese or the banner of the Falun Gong, then in the name of the democracy we claim to hold dear he should be allowed to stand there.
If he did something to aggravate the situation (I haven’t seen the video), then fine.
But the minute we even consider making an exception because he’s a Green or a ginga or a commie or a hypocrite or a showboat or an Australian, then surely we’ve sunk to the level of the authoritarian dictator.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:14 am
Yes he had the right to stand there John but did he have the right to obstruct a serious security operation?
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:29 am
The fact that he’s an MP or a member of any political party is irrelevant. Everyone has the right to freedom of speech.
I have no problem with foreign people coming to our country. I don’t expect them to eat our kinds of food, or speak our language, or even do the same social things as Kiwis do. I do however expect them to accept and abide by the most basic values we have – like democracy – and respect those while they’re here.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:44 am
I suggest before anyone opens their mouths again, take a look at the video (it is only about 90 seconds)
http://tinyurl.com/34u3wyb
At about 17 seconds. Norman is seen barging the chinese guy out of the way – it seems like Norman should be the one up for assault. It is obvious Norman was out to cause a ruckus right from the start.
The chinese security ripped the flag out obviously because it could have been used as a distraction or cover for other things.
How the hell were they to know who Russel was, or his likelihood to do something stupid.
The Americans would have acted no differently from the Chinese – in fact they would most likely at the very least would have slammed him into the ground – hard.
Nothing to do with freedom of speech. Everything to do with physically protecting a visiting dignatary.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:47 am
zhumao, quite right. norman was into the mix to get tv coverage. he is campaigning for 2011 already.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:55 am
Why not pulling a Chinese flag and ask for democracy for EVERY Chinese?
Give that man a medal – this is what I have been saying all along. The Tibet debate is a red herring, and beloved of the Left because they are dopey hippies and love all that silly buddhist chanting, despite the fact that the Dalai Lama is a feudalist whose regime was, Cultural Revolution aside, actually more repressive than that of their new Chinese overlords.
I couldn’t give a toss about Tibet when 1.3Billion people live under a fascist regime where freedom of speech is curtailed and no other political parties are allowed to contest for power.
BTW, there is already a legitimate democratic government of China, they just happen to be in Taipei. If you want to protest against the CCP, fly the KMT flag, not that feudal rag from the Himilayas.
As for Russell Norman, deliberately engaging in argy-bargy before crying foul is a typical tactic of the Left, and he should be called out on it. He is just as authoritarian as the people he protests against anyway.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 1:00 am
Zhumao, your comments are interesting and I agree with most.
This does not stop me laughing my tits off at the sight of communist bastards protesting against communist rule in an area that has been part of China for most of recorded history and in so doing support an elitist would be ruler of the type Marx presented his communist manifesto to depose.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 2:07 am
I couldn’t give a toss about Tibet when 1.3Billion people live under a fascist regime where freedom of speech is curtailed and no other political parties are allowed to contest for power.
In fact your so called ‘fascist’ regime is ruled now in a way very similar to how Taiwan was under the Nationalists right up until 1994 when the first elections were held on that island.
The Taiwanese (and South Koreans) brought in democracy only after economic progress, and only after the establishment of a highly literate, civilised middle class. Good on them for doing so. But now is not the right time for China. Perhaps in twenty or thirty years.
It is rather more challenging to rule 1.3 billion people than an island of a mere 23 million.
It is interesting to note that Taiwan (the ‘Republic of China’) not only claims all of Tibet as part of China, but also all of Mongolia as well! The map of what should be China is larger under the ‘Republic of China’ version than under the ‘Peoples Republic of China’ version.
Anyone reading the Western news media would think that China suddenly invaded Tibet in 1950. No it did not. China reasserted central authority, in the same way it did over numerous other areas of China at the time. The pre-communist Nationalist government also held that Tibet was part of China, and not only this the United States firmly recognised this claim in 1943, about 7 years before communist troops first entered Tibet.
China’s right to Tibet is pretty well established – thus there is not one country in the world which recognises Tibetan independence – this obviously includes all Western nations including New Zealand.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 2:21 am
all that silly buddhist chanting, despite the fact that the Dalai Lama is a feudalist whose regime was, Cultural Revolution aside, actually more repressive than that of their new Chinese overlords.
Agree with much of what you say here. However note that during the Cultural Revolution, it was not so much about repression from above, but rather the people were encouraged by Mao himself to ‘bomb the headquarters’ of the Chinese communist party itslef, and also to attack old culture, superstitions etc. There were many many Tibetan Maoists , mostly former serfs, and the damage to Tibetan temples, religious relics etc during this time was primarily carried out by Tibetan Red Guards ie Tibetan Maoists, who had reason to hate the old feudal culture, in the same way that millions of Han Chinese also hated Han feudal culture.
Of course this went way too far and there was a lot of craziness during this period. All revolutions seem to have these. The French Revolution went through a similar phase with smashing of churches, killing of priests, even winding the calendar back to year zero, in the name of Robespierres ‘Republic of Virtue.’
What happened to the Tibetans and Tibetan culture during the cultural revolution was indeed tragic, but it is simply wrong to say that it was Chinese (or Han Chinese) oppressing Tibetans. Because traditional Han culture was attacked as much as traditional Tibetan culture.
However in an overall sense the Tibetans are far better off under China than they ever were under the feudal theocracy. Both Tibetan population and life expectancy have doubled under this ‘genocidal’ communist government.
The Chinese have only ever had good intentions towards this region and minorities.
Think about it. China was basically cut off from the rest the world for over a decade (between the time of the Sino-Soviet split and Nixon’s China visit). Tibet is strategically incredibly vital to China’s security. If China was so evil and genocidal in intent, she could have during this time quite easily killed off all of the 1.5 million Tibetans (as the Americans or Argentines did to their indigenous people), or simply deported them to different parts of China (as Stalin often did to his fractious minorities). And the British at around the same time had no compunctions in depopulating Diego Garcia to allow for the establishment of a US military base.
But the Chinese never did any of this type of thing to the Tibetans. All that happened to the Tibetans was exactly the same as what happened to Chinese of all ethnicities including Han – a sustained attack, fanatical at times, on feudal culture, beliefs, and superstitions.
The Dalai Lama, far from being some meek peacenik, was in fact financed by the CIA for over a decade to carry out subversive activities against China. Interestingly he now describes himself as a Marxist! He calls himself a ‘marxist monk’
He thus says: “I belong to the Marxist camp,” he said, “because unlike capitalism, Marxism is more ethical. Marxism, as an ideology, takes care of the welfare of its employees and believes in distribution of wealth among the people of the state.”
http://tinyurl.com/yb7g2rh
Yet the record of feudal rule in Tibet was anything but ‘marxist.’ The Dalai Lama carefully cultivates an image that Westerners, liberals especially will find appealing. For instance, he now wears sackcloth. But look at this photo of him meeting with Mao in the 1950s. He is accoutred like some medieval prince:
http://tinyurl.com/2bwcpu4
The real reason why the likes of the Greens embrace the Dalai Lama are the same reasons why so many people loved the movie Avatar (aside from the special effects). Just like the Greens the Dalai is anti-progress, anti-science, anti-industrialisation – in short an anti-human pagan.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 4:43 am
Close examination of the video seems to show a somewhat different picture of events to that widely reported upon and certainly Mr Norman’s version of events (made without pictures).
He was making a protest and wanted as much attention as he could get. He got that. However, his version of events does’nt stack up with the video record. I would suggest that the small scratch he suffered was self inflicted whilst waving his arms around.
However, there is a much more important issue that seems to have escaped any real observation or comment. That is the mangement of security for a very significant world leader. It beggars belief that there were not security procedures in place to keep the crowd away from the VIP as he made the short walk from his car to trhe entrance to the Beehive. Mr Norman and any other person should have been held away from the route he had to take.
The management of the security was amateurish and I believe that is what needs much closer scrutiny. I suspect the Chinese protocol and security staff are well aware from previous experience of the lax measures that are implemented here.
Unfortunately we will need to wake up to personal security measures needed for the 21st Century before we learn the hard way. This I suspect is the major concern we have to worry about as to how we might be seen for the RWC.
Norman could have held his protest but not within physical contact distance of the VIP. That is the issue that needs to be closely and unemotionally scrutinised.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 8:59 am
The real outrage is that a non-elected member of the NZ parliament chose to behave as he did at the moment of an official welcome to our parliament of a foreign guest. That the foreign guest was also an important one, and that trade with his country had been very significant for New Zealand in sheltering us from very much worse effects of the international downturn, was additionally significant. The occasion was not one where any sort of diversion or protest should have been made.
While the matter of the treatment of Tibet is of concern, in the circumstances of the Chinese deputy leader’s visit to our parliament, that matter was utterly and completely irrelevant. Russell Norman and the Greens should cop all the blame for the stunt and its consequences. It was an utterly inappropriate act at an utterly inappropriate moment. Norman should be dismissed from parliament forthwith. This country can do without “representatives” who don’t have the the knowledge or the restraint to act as they properly should do so. Especially when they’re paid from the public purse.
I do hope the opportunity will present itself wherein I’ll be able to convey my sentiments to Russell Norman exactly as he attempted to convey his.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:36 am
Have to say again that this is not about rights but responsibilities. Something that never seems to figure in the minds of the left and their friends.
This is about treating with “{respect and dignity”, a person who when invited by our leaders, leads a delegation to our country and to our parliament. To our “HOUSE”
A person who will be the leader of the most populated nation of this world, a person who is extremely influential in the trading that our nation depends on and a person who can determine very easily the future prosperity of our country.
That a person who is anointed (not elected as he claims), by our voting system to carry out that responsibility of creating wealth and higher living standards for all NZer’s, would even consider behaving in the way he did does a disservice to all NZer’s, no matter what their opinion is on Tibet. ( an opinion in this case I happen to support.)
And that is really the nub of the issue. That Norman is so incredibly foolish to behave this way.
None of us would invite a business partner to our house for a visit and then allow our siblings or children to picket that visitor. Its simply not conceivable regardless of their own views, so why should we tolerate it at “OUR HOUSE” or anywhere else in NZ when we are working with invited guests that are so important to us.
And why should we tolerate it from someone whose supposed purpose in his paid role is to improve the wealth and prospects of all NZer’s.
Like Carter he needs to ask himself why he is in Parliament if its not to achieve those objectives.
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