Dom Post to PPTA
August 24th, 2010 at 11:00 am by David FarrarToday’s Dom Post editorial:
Earth to teachers: the cupboard is bare. The stopwork meetings called for today and tomorrow by the secondary teachers’ union suggest its executive inhabits a parallel universe.
In case the Post Primary Teachers Association has not noticed, the economy is flagging, businesses are cutting costs and most workers are making do with minimal or no pay increases. Some are grateful to just have jobs. Now is not the time to be demanding 4 per cent wage rises, increased KiwiSaver contributions, a laptop for every teacher and smaller class sizes. Nor is it the time to be downing chalk to vote on strike action.
The Dom Post has summed it up nicely.
In support of its claims, the PPTA quotes from an OECD report showing that after 15 years a New Zealand secondary teacher’s salary is 17 per cent lower than the OECD average. Strangely it appears to have escaped the union’s notice that the chippies, cleaners, dentists and doctors who will have to fund any pay increase for teachers through their taxes also earn significantly less than their counterparts in countries like Australia, the United States, France and Japan. That is the consequence of living in a country which does not perform as well economically as its peers.
Exactly. What would be interesting is to compare how teachers are paid in NZ compared to the average wage, and what the OECD average is compared to the OECD average wage.
There is a yawning chasm between the best and worst teachers. The Los Angeles Times has just published the results of a major study analysing the performance of individual students in the US’s second largest school district over several years. It shows that the quality of teaching has more to do with student performance than class sizes, socio-economic background or even the thing parents worry most about – the schools they attend. A good teacher can make a huge difference to a pupil’s performance in a single year. A poor teacher, down the hall in the same school, can have an equally big impact in the same period – but in an adverse way.
Hmmn, I think the editorial writer reads my blog 
As I have said before, I’d pay the best teachers around $100,000 but the worse teachers under $40,000.
If teacher unions were genuinely focused on improving student performance they would work with the Government to devise a pay system that recognises the abilities of individual teachers.
That will never ever happen – sadly.
Tags: Dominion Post, PPTA
August 24th, 2010 at 11:09 am
So why pay a DP, yes a DP, with NO teaching responsibilities, at a South Auckland primary more than $105,000 pa?
Vote:That teacher has some 35 years experience but spends 99% of (its) time pushing Min of Ed paper.
Question:
When did educators last have to graft for a dollar like real New Zealanders?
When did they last invest a $ of their own capital into their business?
Answer: Never.
Crazy.
Only in NZ.
August 24th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Mrs kk meets with 100′s teachers every year. Given the authority, there are plenty she’d offer double salary too and plenty of others she’d immediately invite to pursue another occupation. We must fix this pay for perfomance issue. It’s critical for NZ’s future, and the NZEI’s continued Victorian-era union politics are holding us back.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Good post flipper..a very , very conscientious friend of mine trained as a teacher years ago.early on she was teaching in AK and at that time said her admin responsibilities took up about as much time as the teaching component of her job.. This was probably awhile after Tomorrows schools were introduced..I would say during labour’s 9 yr reign the min grew out of control.
Vote:It would be good to hear from some teachers..the last I heard of my friend she was the principal of a school in India and loving it.
A former principal wrote into Breakfast during a Burqa discussion and said two foreign parents turned up at the girls school he was running and said they wanted to enrol their girls but the the girls would be wearing burqas. He discussed it with his board , got back to them and said you are welcome to enrol your girls but they would have to wear the unifom like everyonelse. Two or three days later , the Ministry was on top of him like a ton of bricks…He was told he had to add Burqa to the list of acceptable dress…Sometime later a group of girls decided they would like to be able to wear trousers…Did they get a look in? No, they got told to shove it.
I would say the Min. still needs to shed some staff.
August 24th, 2010 at 11:48 am
17%? Seriously, 17%? I’d suggest there are some occupations where if the difference was only 17% they’d think it was Christmas every day. For me, I know the difference between NZ and AUS (I know I know, AUS is not the OECD) is somewhere around 100%, which is why I choose to live in AUS, as much as I hate it.
These union commies really do need to take a deep breath and start working with the government. They are really the only union left with any real teeth. Bout time Tolley sent them to the dentist, I think.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 11:52 am
On the whole I have a great deal of respect for teachers and have many teacher friends. I haven’t received or even expected a pay rise for the last 3 years. It’s hard, frustrating, demoralising and can be a disincentive to work. However, I continue to lump it and hang in there as I’m grateful just to have kept my job.
Now is the time for teachers to show some grace, hang in there and lump it too. (Something those cabinet staff that got comfortable pay rises should have done also.)
But DPF, please tell me how you would define “the best teachers” and “the worse teachers”? Political affiliations aside, Kelvin Davis raises a number of questions that would need answering: http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2010/08/19/performance-pay-for-teachers/
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 11:55 am
DPF,too right they read your blog!
I don’t know how many times I’ve heard journo types on the radio saying ” I’ve checked the blogs and…….”or facebook for that matter.
So we know they do and we also know they probably sit at their computers all day long and dont do any old fashioned leg work.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 11:58 am
The laptop comment is interesting and shows a huge lack of understanding in the modern classroom.
It is becoming Ministry policy to have all class roles done electrically so therefore all teachers will need a laptop.
91% of secondary schools already pay for the lease of their teachers laptops, which is about $250 a year. So the cost to the Ministry is very limited.
The LA Times article also has issues, especially related to Value Added Measures. This video explains it better than I can.
Vote:
August 24th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Joanna
Vote:I think you’re correct the MOE needs to shed some more staff but will the PC types be those who go?
Ban the burqua in a democracy I say.
August 24th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Better still I would give kids a voucher and they can pick the best teachers for themselves. The worst teachers would have no students and no pay. That is how the real word works.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
@tvb So that “best” teacher in theory could have any number of children in their class? So should they let everyone in and have a lecture style class? That teacher might not be the best in that situation. Or do we cap numbers for that class and say to the rest “Sorry no room try some where else”.
Or, now this is radical, why don’t we try and improve the skill of teachers so they are all the ‘best’ teacher? Or why don’t we pay them a worthwhile salary so teaching attracts top graduates and this would also stop our best and brightest teachers leaving our shores?
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
If merit remuneration were to be introduced, there’d be plenty of cash to pay the good performers a nice increase, and of course the poor performers would be edged towards the door by a zero increase.
None of my family or friends has had more than a 1% increase this year – some of them work for employers who are giving no increases.
It really is time the teachers stopped seeing themselves as special. God knows, our literacy rates suggest that a good many of them are not.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
Great Post DPF — totally agree. In my experience teachers are often people who went to school, then went to teachers College and then went straight back to school. They have had very little experience in the private sector. They have been socialised at teachers College to be left-leaning both economically and socially.
So they tend to say things like “it’s not fair for a person who does the same job to be paid differently”. They don’t want the free market in other words. Therefore principals have to pay the same for a teacher no matter what the competence of the individual, no matter what area of the country it is, basically teachers want a strong trade union that will standardise pay rates.
One suggestion I have is that teachers would be wise to take a break from school and go out into the private sector to gain different experience. Hopefully they might see that the market in action is a good thing.
Also I agree with the person who would trim down the numbers of staff at the Ministry of education. In my experience Wellington bureaucrats do more harm than good. I would like more power to the individual schools and communities to run those schools to best fit the local community needs.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
One suggestion I have is that teachers would be wise to take a break from school and go out into the private sector to gain different experience. Hopefully they might see that the market in action is a good thing.
Not quite clear – is this to help them become better teachers or is this a way to persuade them that performance pay is a good thing?
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
@Scott Principals don’t pay teachers. Teacher wages don’t come out of schools funds.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Forget the idea of placing teachers in the private sector, you would be employing losers no one would want them.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Joana, it is HIGHLY unlikely it was the full face/ full body burqa that the muslim school girls wanted to wear, but a simple hijab – the headscalf without a face veil. Which should be allowed in a healthy tolerant democracy IMHO. I’d say what you heard on breakfast was xenophobia with a healthy dose of plain ignorance.
But back OT: Yes totally agree with performance pay for teachers.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Forget the idea of placing teachers in the private sector, you would be employing losers no one would want them.
You bet! All the people I met working in the private sector were Heroes of Labour, gods who walk amongst us, supermen carving out a brave new world in the white-hot crucible of standing behind a counter and suchlike, whereas all the teachers I’ve met could do little more than get a class of 30 kids to pay attention and learn stuff – how pathetic is that?
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
tvb – a good many excellent teachers stay in the teaching profession beacuse they (wrongly) believe that most NZers hold a view like yours. Others know this isn’t the case and leave, which leads to a drop in the average capability of NZ teachers. Time for people like you to stop denigrating the profession, and for us all expect more and reward top performers. Calling them all losers isn’t fair, nor is it the way to start an kind of reform.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
tvb -
If your view of me reflects the general view of the New Zealand population, then it is about time I pissed off back overseas where I was paid more, paid less tax, had even more holidays, and the students were respectful and hardworking. I chose to come back here because I like New Zealand and wanted to make a difference.
Perhaps I’ll even open my own private academy overseas as well (my dream, that and somehow getting into the Minstry and changing this fucking ridiculous curriculum that values woolly personal values over skills and knowledge), seeing as here I’ll only be employing losers that no-one wants.
In other words, fuck you pal.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
In principal I agree that good teachers should be paid what they are worth, but who decides this? A principal? BOT’s? Local government? Another Local Board? Wellington? Who pays for this? Or is it through or a combination of these national standard things? If the latter, why the hell would a teacher want to work in a decile 1 school when they would have to work harder for, using DP’s example, the extra $60,000 they are worth? Going to a higher decile school would mean that a good teacher wouldn’t have to work hard to prove that they are worth $100,000 (or whatever figure would be decided). So we would have the best teachers going for the best schools, and the rubbish teachers only getting decile 1 schools, where they wouldn’t want to work to bring the performance of their students up, because they are rubbish teachers themselves.
I have had a bad experience in the past with performance pay. A large number of people, myself included, were employed in exactly the same position. There were 10 supervisors managing this large number and each supervisor was allocated an equal number of staff. It was at the supervisors discretion as to who received a performance based bonus at the end of the financial year. Of this large number of employees (100+), I ranked consistently in the top 10 most efficient and my annual work review was absolutely glowing. However MY supervisor decided that you really had to really excel in order to obtain this bonus. Really have to prove that you were worth this bonus, which was worth an excess of $5000. I had absolutely no problem with this. The feedback was positive and it was generally indicated that should I continue as I was, I would be inline for many performance based bonuses in future financial years.
The problem was that another worker under a different supervisor obtained this bonus, despite being within the 50-60% range, pulled aside at least twice for inaccuracies in their work and was found sleeping at their desk on at least one occasion. The person was a sociable and friendly person (as am I), but while my supervisor was able to disregard this in relation to performance, the other supervisor did not and the other staff member was awarded a bonus, the reasons were not disclosed. This decision created a large amount of curiosity amongst the staff but attempts to question this were quashed on the basis that it was paid at the supervisors discretion. No overt action was taken against the supervisor for this decision either. Therefore, there was no real reason for me to improve my productivity thus why I believe that performance based pay doesn’t work.
Pay people what they are worth, I completely agree. But it must be fair.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
It is truly sad when a recession has hit as hard as this one and the government is borrowing 240 milliion a week and the teachers still want their raises. I am self employed but my wife hasn’t had a raise in years. We’re all feeling this recession. The Dominion Post said it like it is. Teachers are out of touch and obviously haven’t felt the recession. How comfortable they are. Let them strike, it’ll only make them look worse when 177000 unemployed can watch them on tv complaining about their 40 to 80 thousand a year jobs.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
Thankfully others have addressed the rubbish coming from tvb – the least said about him the better.
Vote:The borrowing 240 million a week line that Bill English likes to quote continuously, usually when trying to push an unpopular move on the public, I understand is either incorrect or misleading. Apparently most of that amount is what was being paid even in the boom times with debt servicing and in fact very little additional amount is being borrowed.
August 24th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
@bc – my understanding is that NZ Ltd is spending $250m/week more than it’s ‘earning’. The figure does refer to debt servicing, but a shortfall between expenses and incom, new ergo borrowing. Someone with a better handle on the crown accounts should be able to confirm.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 10:16 pm
Where’s my proof reader when it’s needed
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
Yes krazy, I’d like some clarification on that figure as well. Bill English uses it like a crutch and he needs to be challenged on it in my opinion.
Vote:I really think it comes down to – how do we value education in this country? It is just government expenditure or is it an investment in the future of New Zealand? A 4% pay rise is not unrealistic to keep New Zealand trained teachers teaching in New Zealand. There is a shortage of teachers, especially in subjects like Maths, Sciences, Technology. You can spin it anyway you like but teachers here are poorly paid in comparison with other OECD countries (we are pretty much at the bottom).
Irrational teacher bashing doesn’t help either! Some people here think that anyone can teach. I would bet that the loudmouths here who think that it’s a cruisy job wouldn’t last a week. Do you think you know more than than your doctor or lawyer at their profession? Interesting then that some people here think they are education experts!
August 24th, 2010 at 11:27 pm
Teachers are losers. They all have mild personality disorders which means they cannot relate to adults properly.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
@bc – This isn’t a relative comparison with how teachers are paid elsewhere. Obama earns a fair bit more than does Key, but that’s not a reason to multiply our PM’s salary by 20, 50 or whatever. We need to pay teachers in a way that reflects their skill at imparting knowledge and preparing the next generation to be brighter, and more equipped for a world that few of us can imagine.
So the idea that teachers – as a group – are worth an extra 4% is simply nonsense. Some are worthy of >100% increases, and others should be invited to try another occupation. Dumbing everything down to a cross-the-board pay demand is evidence that teachers don’t get it, or rather that they trust the NZEI to advise them… and the NZEI dosen’t get it. If teachers ‘got it’ did they’d be demanding pay for performance and proposing ways to set this up.. for the benefit of the profession and for the well-being of the next generation of NZers.
You’re right about the challenge of being a good teacher. Mrs kk slaved away at a little school for two decades before being ‘noticed’ by the hierarchy.. and her career have now taken off where she’s helping 100′s of other teachers improve the pedagogical knowledge, getting heaps of professional kudos and, yes, being paid more. It took too long though, not for just her but for the 1000′s of other excellent teachers who remain unrecognized and not rewarded as they should be.
The other side of this coin is that there are plenty of absolutely useless teachers who have a guaranteed job for life and are lining up for a 4% pay rise alongside the stars. That’s not right.
@tvb – You need to grow up.
Vote:August 24th, 2010 at 11:41 pm
Some good points there, krazy. But I disagee about your statement that it isn’t a relative comparison with how teachers are paid elsewhere. Take a look inside a staffroom of a low to mid decile state school and notice how many New Zealand teachers are teaching New Zealand children. Like nurses, our taxpayer dollars are training teachers only for them to skip overseas for better pay (and I supect better respect for the value of education). Now that’s crazy! (krazy?)
Vote:[Ignore tvb - no one is taking him seriously]
August 24th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
And that a problem isn’t it? Everyone wants a cool, stimulating work environment where new ideas are being tried, boundaries pushed, challenges are both surfaced and resolved.. and, in the case of education, kids are obviously engaged and learning heaps.
But look in the classroom of ANY NZ school.. and it’s basically unchanged in 150 years. Same formula, same rules, same structure. Hell, these classrooms even smell the same as when I was a nipper. Yet in this 150 years we’ve seen daily trans-world travel, space travel , global TV, internet etc. So is education lagging behind? Absolutely!
Simply paying all teachers more isn’t a recipe for fulfilling employment for our teachers, nor is it a recipe for improved educational outcomes for our next generation. If you have the time, download http://podcasts.nytimes.com/podcasts/2010/05/12/Freak_105_Final.mp3 and hear about one of the many initiatives that are challenging the traditional classroom model. Skip the ‘radio’ bit at the top of the segment.
Vote:August 25th, 2010 at 12:27 am
“our taxpayer dollars are training teachers only for them to skip overseas for better pay”
Actually, New Zealand’s learning institutions are churning out professionals of all shapes and sizes, only for them to skip overseas for better pay. Were it just about money, there would be no productive people left in New Zealand, because pretty much anyone with half a brain can get paid better somewhere else.
KK, I’m not sure I agree with you that NZ schools haven’t changed in 150 years. Up until quite recently (well, in the distant past when I was at school), the focus was on educational outcomes (primarily literacy and numeracy early on, followed by maths, sciences, etc.) whereas from what I hear and read, much of the focus now is on indoctrinating the little darlings into leftism, as preached by the NZEI. I may be wrong about that, of course, as it’s been a decade or two since I left skool
Vote:August 25th, 2010 at 10:25 am
bc-Irrational teacher bashing doesn’t help either! Some people here think that anyone can teach. I would bet that the loudmouths here who think that it’s a cruisy job wouldn’t last a week. Do you think you know more than than your doctor or lawyer at their profession? Interesting then that some people here think they are education experts!
BC, the type of people that have gone into teaching are the ones who go to school, get a degree, then go on to get a teaching credential, then teach. Most do not have practical experience. It is a protected profession, protected because results do not have to be shown. The ncea is a joke. If a doctor kept killing his patience, don’t think he would be around long, if a lawyer kept loosing cases, he’d go into teaching. I have had some good teachers that have had an everlasting effect on me. They were far and few between and they weren’t in it for the money, they loved to teach… the old adage “money brings in quality”might be true in private industry, but definately not true when it comes to bureaucracy!!!!
Vote:August 26th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
Its a funny old society where we entrust the education of our children to people we constantly rubbish and do not want to pay much but we are happy to pay lawyers 2 or 3 , 4 or 10 times as much because their contribution society is so much greater than teachers.
The OECD tables might suggest we are doing OK in education. I sit on a board of Trutees of a primary school. The teachers that I come in contact with are professional, committed and do a bloody good job.
We should be respecting and supporting these people rather than constantly trying to undermine them and give them grief.
Vote:August 26th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
This excercise was done in poor taste. Don’t blame Anne Tolly for being upset.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10668955
Vote: