Superstitious bullshit

October 12th, 2010 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

Amelia Wade at the Herald reports:

A clash of cultures over a rule forbidding pregnant or menstruating to attend a exhibit has been criticised by feminists.

An invitation for regional museums to go on a behind-the-scenes tour of some of Te Papa’s collections included the condition that “wahine who are either hapu [pregnant] or mate wahine [menstruating]” were unable to attend.

Jane Keig, Te Papa spokeswoman, said the policy was in place because of beliefs surrounding the Taonga collection included in the tour.

She said the rule was one of the terms Te Papa agreed to when they took the collection.

“If a woman is pregnant or menstruating, they are tapu. Some of these taonga have been used in battle and to kill people.

“Pregnant women are sacred and the policy is in place to protect women from these objects.”

What? Are Te Papa concerned that one of these ancient weapons is going to levitate itself over to any pregnant women, and bludgeon her to death unassisted?

And how does Te Papa intend to check if women are menstruating? Will there be compulsory checks? I mean you can’t rely on trust – the ghosts may get offended.

Deborah Russel, prominent feminist blogger on The Hand Mirror blog, does not think the policy should be enforced in modern society.

“I don’t understand why a secular institution, funded by public money in a secular state, is imposing religious and cultural values on people.

“It’s fair enough for people to engage in their own cultural practices where those practices don’t harm others, but the state shouldn’t be imposing those practices on other people.”

Absolutely. If they are the terms under which a collection will only be granted, then they should be refused.

Would one accept a collection with a condition that no blacks are d

lowed to view the collection?

Would Te Papa kowtow to the Roman Catholic Church if it insisted that a collection of church art work only be viewable by men?

However, Margaret Mutu, head of Maori Studies at Auckland University, said the policy was common in Maori culture.

Women cannot go into the garden, on to the beach or in the kitchen when they are menstruating.

“It’s a very serious violation of tapu for women to do those things while menstruating. Women cannot have anything to do with the preparation of food while they are menstruating.”

I would be very interested in any research that measures how prevalent this “policy” is amongst Maori women. It may have been common in the past, but how many modern Maori families ban women from going into the garden or the beach while they are menstruating?

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185 Responses to “Superstitious bullshit”

  1. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Te Papa is pandering to Maori myth and superstition. Will the primitives prevail?

    What a crock!

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  2. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Oh this is brilliant, only in NZ would anybody take notice of this primitive bullshit.

    Can you imagine the hand wringing that preceded this decision, no doubt some con man masquerading as a “cultural expert” was called in at great expense to offer “advice”.

    I cannot wait for Te Papa to have an exhibition of Afrikaans art and for Te Papa to enforce the “no blacks or coloureds” rule.

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  3. JC (942 comments) says:

    Ah, now I understand why some Maori kids go hungry.. solo mum isn’t allowed to cook for them for a week.

    JC

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  4. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    This decision should never have been made. Period.

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  5. John Gibson (295 comments) says:

    Yes superstitious but no more superstitious than opening Parliament with a prayer. Lets eliminate all superstition from government and public organisations. While we are at it lets get rid of all public holidays with a religious basis.

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  6. adze (2,062 comments) says:

    I find clashes between feminist and cultural mores to be the most fascinating. Another example was the Corrections Dept. employee who refused to sit at the back, at an employer-hosted meeting that was following tikanga.

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  7. Shazzadude (526 comments) says:

    Judaism has similar regulations regarding menstruating women.

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  8. Captain Neurotic (206 comments) says:

    JC – I just choked on my coffee!

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  9. labrator (1,893 comments) says:

    Surprisingly, I agree with John Gibson. I’m surprised how Maori religion is immediately “superstitious bullshit” but the Jews right to Israel is divine. Here’s the link to the article where it clearly states

    Women who plan to attend the tour on November 5 are expected to be honest about whether they are pregnant or menstruating as a sign of respect to Maori beliefs.

    So there is no ban, it’s purely a sign of respect for a religion. Respect for religion seems to be a common theme on this site unless you disagree with the religion.

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  10. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,875 comments) says:

    You’ll find the only families Maori families who still observe these quaint customs are those who fatten their slaves for the table.

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  11. ben (2,418 comments) says:

    From Ms Russel

    “I don’t understand why a secular institution, funded by public money in a secular state, is imposing religious and cultural values on people.

    “It’s fair enough for people to engage in their own cultural practices where those practices don’t harm others, but the state shouldn’t be imposing those practices on other people.”

    That is easily the most sensible thing I’ve heard a feminist say in a long time. Except I’m sure that little argument from Ms Russel goes out the window the very second someone in her camp – women – are allegedly discriminated against by employers or colleagues or bosses or whatever. You can’t get far as an activist if you’re actually willing to respect the right of people to disagree with you.

    Is a bit of consistency too much to ask for?

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  12. Rodders (1,790 comments) says:

    Is Joris de Bres going to criticise Te Papa? I doubt it.

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  13. Mark (1,471 comments) says:

    Te Papa is demanding cultural sensitivity for Maori and cultural insensitivity for the rest of society. They need to think this through more carefully

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  14. ben (2,418 comments) says:

    but how many modern Maori families ban women from going into the garden or the beach while they are menstruating?

    Don’t forget the kitchen.

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  15. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    The conditions should never have been accepted. Furthermore, if people want a culture to survive, the culture and its promoters have to be responsive and adapt to the times. Bullshit like this should be relegated to historical practice and if people don’t want all of the culture to be consigned to the dustbin along with such bullshit, they have to disentangle it from such bullshit.

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  16. voice of reason (491 comments) says:

    Wait for the headlines – “Indian woman turned away from Te Papa – I’m just Fat, Not Pregnant”

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  17. bhudson (4,736 comments) says:

    Hang on. What’s all this up in arms stuff about?

    As I recall from previous days, if something was offensive the answer was “watch the other channel” or “don’t watch TV”. Surely the answer here is “don’t take the tour” (thereby also costing Te Papa a bit of cash as well as showing your displeasure.)

    Surely all the good folk here would support being consistent…

    [For the record, I think this policy is an insensitive response to trying to be sensitive to (one) culture. Remove the policy or remove the artifacts - either will solve the problem. And that is consistent as I also said "get rid of Henry" (albeit for different reasons.)]

    [DPF: As Te Papa is state funded I think they have am obligation not to bar people on the grounds of pregnancy. Hmmn I wonder if one could complain to Human Rights Commission about their policy]

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  18. nickb (3,686 comments) says:

    I wonder what would win out here if a complaint was made to the Human Rights Commission for discrimination based on sex.

    PC HRC staff v PC Te Papa staff.

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  19. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,875 comments) says:

    Would they test Parekura at the door?

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  20. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    You white mofos just shut up and do what your told, you’re all racists anyway.

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  21. Tauhei Notts (1,678 comments) says:

    JC at 10.08 a.m.
    My mate who ran a burger shop was astounded that one particular ethnic group made up a significant amount of his clientele. That wahine hapu and wahine mate carry on would explain why they could not cook for their families.

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  22. decanker (222 comments) says:

    Groan, why don’t they say at the entrance:

    “If a woman is pregnant or menstruating, they are tapu. Some of these taonga have been used in battle and to kill people. According to tikanga maori, pregnant women are sacred and would be kept away from these objects.”

    Leave it at that. It respects the culture, educates people about maori tradition and people can make up their own mind as to how they wish to proceed.

    [DPF: An excellent suggestion]

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  23. cla (18 comments) says:

    FFS – they simply asked that women invited to go on a tour respect a custom. If they would like to respect a custom, an alternative time would be arranged for them to go on the tour. If they don’t believe in the custom, that is not a problem and they can still attend.

    Its not a big deal. If you go to the general exhibit, the rule would not be in place. However, if there were people going on this tour and they DID believe in the tapu and weren’t informed about it, surely that would be equally horrific?

    Also, sweet as to see that we’re all about respecting ethnic diversity, except when it comes to our indigenous peoples. Kia ora, New Zealand, kia ora.

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  24. labrator (1,893 comments) says:

    @decanker That’s pretty much what the article says. There is no ban as I quoted above. The NZ Herald are searching for headlines to sell their papers and they found one.

    @Tauhei Notts if wahine mate were at my take away shop I’d be more worried that they’d want to eat my brains rather than what’s on the menu. I wonder if NZ on air will give me money to make a Maori Zombie movie? It’s definitely a missing genre in our indigenous film making.

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  25. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    It seems a bit paradoxical that while a culture can maintain these savage ideas they can at the same time claim ownership of airwaves.

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  26. rouppe (962 comments) says:

    Interestingly Te Papa wasn’t too concerned about culture and spiritual beliefs when they displayed the Virgin in a Condom. Some of those objections were from Maori but still, it was “freedom of expression” so the display went ahead.

    This is a ludicrous double standard.

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  27. KevinH (1,194 comments) says:

    Our world is populated by myths and practices which have originated from Church and State that have become over time our value systems.
    The role of the Catholic Church stands out because of it’s ruling forbidding birth control even when Aids is wrecking havoc in our communities.
    Also it wasn’t long ago that woman were completely marginalised in western society by being denied the vote.
    Equally as repugnant apartheid was a government policy in South Africa until relatively recently.
    Then of course there is the status of women within Islam.
    Amelia Wade’s report in the Herald is incorrect in saying that menstruating woman are unable to attend the behind the scenes look at the collection, the truth being that they are advised of the Maori custom but not prevented by attending the exhibition.

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  28. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    “they simply asked that women invited to go on a tour respect a custom.”

    In doing so, they asserted the primacy of a primitive stone-age custom over equal treatment. Respect should only be given to that worthy of it. Decanker’s solution would be an acceptable compromise, although I would also like to see some kind of note attached stating this is an outdated custom at odds with social norms and what is seen as right.

    “If they would like to respect a custom, an alternative time would be arranged for them to go on the tour. If they don’t believe in the custom, that is not a problem and they can still attend.”

    That is not what the article says. It says they can do the general tour not the behind the scenes tour.

    “However, if there were people going on this tour and they DID believe in the tapu and weren’t informed about it, surely that would be equally horrific?”

    Why? It has no impact upon them. And again, their belief should be given exactly the respect it deserves, which is to say, very little to none.

    “Also, sweet as to see that we’re all about respecting ethnic diversity, except when it comes to our indigenous peoples.”

    Respect should only be given where it is deserved. I am consistent in this. This is a belief which does not deserve respect. It is irrelevant where the belief comes from.

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  29. northern (44 comments) says:

    Another old Maori cultural tradition that we pander to, and which annoys the hell out of me, is their “cultural” refusal to allow organ donation. Around 50% of all organ recipients are Maori, yet they refuse to allow any organ donations themselves. Hence a great shortage and the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of patients each year. That is not a valid cultural custom; it is simply selfish and hypocritical.

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  30. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    It seems a bit paradoxical that while a culture can maintain these savage ideas they can at the same time claim ownership of airwaves.

    Funny. Although I suspect their isn’t much overlap between the ones wanting the radio spectrum and the ones worried about the menstruating women.

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  31. Tom Gould (141 comments) says:

    “Women cannot have anything to do with the preparation of food while they are menstruating.” At last, the real reason for the attraction of KFC is revealed. I hope the health services are paying attention.

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  32. cla (18 comments) says:

    That is what the article says!

    “Te Papa insists the request is not an outright ban.

    “If there are pregnant women who want to go on the tour we don’t stop them. But we do prefer they respect the belief.” Keig said.”

    They are not enforcing a ban, not at all. If you don’t believe in the custom, don’t abide by it. Its fairly simple.

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  33. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    Admittedly, a woman could lie about whether she was pregnant or menstruating.

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  34. BeaB (2,104 comments) says:

    I’d love to think this was dreamed up by Maori women as a way to get a week off from cooking, gardening and gathering shellfish for the tribe but I suspect it is yet another (oh what a long and depressing line-up) example of the way ‘primitive’ societies controlled women. I remember a kaumatua (reeking of cigarette smoke and BO) solemnly and patronisingly explaining to me that I couldn’t attend a ceremony about a carving because Maori men put women on a pedestal. I bit my tongue about the abuse stats for Maori women and girls and instead gently pointed out that being on a pedestal would give me vertigo. I didn’t attend but neither did I give the speech they wanted from me afterwards praising their culture and artistry (after the men had spoken) or attend the afternoon tea that I was providing for them. I was head of the organisation and decided sometimes I just had to accept there was no possibility of agreement or compromise.

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  35. cla (18 comments) says:

    Read the Stuff article: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4221890/Pregnant-women-warned-off-Te-Papa-tour

    Its much clearer.

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  36. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    @cla: Am I reading the wrong article? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/religion-and-beliefs/news/article.cfm?c_id=301&objectid=10679873 I used ctrl+f for “Te Papa insists” and “If there are” and did not find the quotes.

    I see, the quotes are from stuff.

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  37. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    “If there are pregnant women who want to go on the tour we don’t stop them. But we do prefer they respect the belief.” Keig said.”

    What’s next? Maybe suggesting you enter the exhibition hall with the left foot pointing east while wearing yellow shoes.

    It’s lunacy, sheer lunacy, to bow to these ridiculous myths and Stone-age beliefs.

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  38. TCrwdb (246 comments) says:

    Yes superstitious but no more superstitious than opening Parliament with a prayer

    Moral Equivalentism 101

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  39. Pete George (23,426 comments) says:

    “Women cannot have anything to do with the preparation of food while they are menstruating.” At last, the real reason for the attraction of KFC is revealed. I hope the health services are paying attention.

    You’re talking about as customers. If this old custom was strictly observed it would rule out a wide range of job opportunities for Maori.

    Scenario – a superstitious male Maori goes to KFC, would they avoid any queue served by anyone looking like they are a Maori female? Or any female? Or would they ask any female “team members” if they were clean or not?

    That scenario could be repeated at any cafe, supermarket etc etc. It’s safe to assume the old superstition is ignored.

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  40. labrator (1,893 comments) says:

    They are not enforcing a ban, not at all. If you don’t believe in the custom, don’t abide by it. Its fairly simple.

    @cla I think you’re preaching to the un-convertible. They’re not really interested in the real situation, if it’s something Maori they can get upset about then that’s all they needed to know. Red rag to a bull (pun intended).

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  41. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    # rouppe (137) Says:
    October 12th, 2010 at 10:46 am

    Interestingly Te Papa wasn’t too concerned about culture and spiritual beliefs when they displayed the Virgin in a Condom. Some of those objections were from Maori but still, it was “freedom of expression” so the display went ahead.

    This is a ludicrous double standard.

    quite.

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  42. slightlyrighty (2,506 comments) says:

    Where is Paul Henry when you need him…………[/tounge in cheek mode]

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  43. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    another nonsensical stone age belief that suppresses women (just like Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever the else hell you want to name) that has no place in modern society.

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  44. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    @labrator: In my case, it’s if it’s pandering to superstition.

    And no, I don’t think Parliament should have a prayer to open, but that’s more suited to GD.

    But yes, cla, the stuff article clarifies a bit.

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  45. bustedblonde (138 comments) says:

    its a complete crock http://roarprawn.blogspot.com/2010/10/cultural-twaddle-makes-us-see-red.html

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  46. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Ahoy Polly Wog, given your explanation of broader Pasifika on Kiwiblog yesterday, can you explain what the attitude is towards menstruating women in broader Pasifika? (Details below of Polly’s Pasifika.)

    Hunter S. Thompson in his book about the Hell’s Angels motor-cycle gang states these thugs also had strange views (indeed practices) about menstruating women.

    Primitivism lingers everywhere.

    Here’s what Polly said yesterday:

    We have now become Pasifikans to encompass all our indigenous peoples from SE Asia to PNG to the east coast of the US. So just limiting us to polynesians and exclusive of Maori is more of that divide and conquer shit we’re not really gonna wear anymore.

    Polly, be careful if you plan to visit Indonesia or Malaysia. They won’t like you stirring up their myriad of minority, indigenous groups. And I assume that since you are including Canadian, American, Mexican, Central and Latin American Pacific Coast Indians, you will also include the indigeneous northern Japanese people, the Aino? You realise they are sort of white, often with red hair?

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  47. labrator (1,893 comments) says:

    @jivekitty it’s just respect for others. I always take my hat off if I go into a church. I’ll also whisper rather than talk normally. I’ll turn my cellphone off. I don’t approach or address the pulpit nor enter a confessional. Not because I fear going to hell but because it’s the right thing to do by the church and its patrons. Similarly, I take my shoes off when I go to a marae. I turn my cellphone off. I make sure I don’t have any food on me including things like chewing gum. I also sit in the appropriate area or as directed. Not because of any fear of tapu but because it’s the right thing to do by the marae and the tangata whenua.

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  48. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    I’m glad this has got it’s own thread.

    As I said on GD, this is what happens when Christianity declines – superstition takes hold. Expect this sort of thing to get more and more common over time, rather than less.

    I’d expect God to protect me from these spirits, so there’s no need for Maori to worry on my behalf.

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  49. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    “I’d expect God to protect me from these spirits, so there’s no need for Maori to worry on my behalf.”

    Who to protect you? What if there is no God?
    Lucia, you’re showing the other side of the mythical coin. :-)

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  50. emmess (1,419 comments) says:

    They can go if they slap their faces

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  51. excusesofpuppets (134 comments) says:

    So what? It’s their art, they can admit whoever they like. Just don’t go.

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  52. labrator (1,893 comments) says:

    …this is what happens when Christianity declines – superstition takes hold

    When was it that Maori moved away from Christianity?

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  53. Right of way is Way of Right (1,129 comments) says:

    So, according to Tampax, you can ride a bike, play tennis and swim, but a visit to certain collections at Te Papa is not possible?

    And as for the effect this little revelation has had on some people, seriously, it’s like a red rag to a bull!

    (I’ll get my hat and coat on the way out, shall I?)

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  54. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Quote:
    =====
    However, Margaret Mutu, head of Maori Studies at Auckland University, said the policy was common in Maori culture.

    I say, shut down both the Maori Studies Department Pacific Studies Department at Auckland University and integrate those staffs into either History or Anthropology. These useless departments don’t belong at University level. The engineering & science faculties are screaming out for R&D fundings yet the University of Auckland is spending huge amount of money in running these useless departments which has no relevant to modern knowledge and technology advancements.

    Let Mutu do her teachings at various local Marae around the country, because teaching Maori is not something academic.

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  55. John Gibson (295 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria -“this is what happens when Christianity declines – superstition takes hold.” really ? You have proof of this ?

    Given that Christianity is superstition how can that be true.

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  56. John Gibson (295 comments) says:

    Falufulu Fisis – “The engineering & science faculties are screaming out for R&D fundings yet the University of Auckland is spending huge amount of money in running these useless departments which has no relevant to modern knowledge and technology advancements.”

    Those are sound suggestions but ignore the reality of tertiary education politics.

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  57. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Why are so many on here prepared to be bullied by Maori?

    A lot of you seem to be suggesting that females should show Maori respect by not going to see the exhibition.

    Why not take the opposite approach, why not do what Maori racists and radicals do, why not deliberately go along to see the exhibition if you are pregnant or you have a pregnant partner.

    It is time that we stopped bowing down to prehistoric superstition.

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  58. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    Manolo,

    Who to protect you? What if there is no God?
    Lucia, you’re showing the other side of the mythical coin.

    Yeah, I’m aware of that. Except, our side is not mythical. Just because two groups assert the truth of their claims, it doesn’t mean both are right, or both are wrong.

    Just imagine if Christianity hadn’t taken hold in South America. They still might be ripping out hearts to make the sun rise.

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  59. Pete George (23,426 comments) says:

    Just imagine if Christianity hadn’t taken hold in South America.

    Just imagine if modern Christianity hadn’t taken hold in Europe, they still might be burning and drowning witches, and dunking the accused’s hands in boiling water to let God judge guilt or innocence with the pus test.

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  60. burt (8,189 comments) says:

    So Te Papa will be closed on Sunday now. A few people think that is the lords day and it is a sin to work that day – so sorry for any inconvienance this causes – it’s got to be done.

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  61. John Gibson (295 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria – “Except, our side is not mythical. ” Hilarious. So Maori gods are superstition but your god is real ? ROTFL Might be time for a cup from the Celestial Teapot.

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  62. John Gibson (295 comments) says:

    burt – isn’t Saturday a holy day in some traditions ? And shouldn’t these women be wearing bhurkas while bleeding all over the place ?

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  63. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    Award for Most Ironic Comment of the Day:

    ”this is what happens when Christianity declines – superstition takes hold.”

    Hilarious. Umm……hello?????????!!!!!

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  64. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Please be careful, people. Please be very careful, and very respectful towards Lucia Mari, her side is about to become a lot more powerful.

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  65. kowtow (8,154 comments) says:

    Roger Sandall and Keith Windschuttle ,see below have lots on similar.

    http://www.sydneyline.com/Home.htm

    Agree, they had no sensitivity to the Roman heresy with Virgin in Condom. Bastards.

    Public building ,public rules.

    Scrap the treaty.

    This is another episode of institutional racism in NZ.

    To those who say women were oppressed in the west,no vote etc, bollox. Stacks of people didn’t have the vote,it wasn’t a gender issue .It was power and property issues. That mandate continues to chnge to this day,look at the arses who want to give 16 yr olds the vote ,does that mean they have been oppressed by not having the vote (rhetorical,don’t reply).

    Usual suspects,defend the savage and attack the west.

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  66. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    And this is what happens when superstition takes over a government.. If the Swedes are not immune to this bullfuckingshit, what hope have we of rolling back the black tides of ignorance and deceit?

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  67. John Gibson (295 comments) says:

    MNIJ – you mean the Pope is about to get nuclear weapons ? Or is he about to blame earthquakes on women wearing low cut tops ?

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  68. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    MNIAJ – very interesting. Clearly dinner jacket thinks secularism is a worse evil than Catholicism.

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  69. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Just imagine if Christianity hadn’t taken hold in South America. They still might be ripping out hearts to make the sun rise.

    Quote of the motherf*cking YEAR right there.
    LOL – you must have to be a very fervent follower of the Church of Hypocrisy to say that with a straight face.

    Christianity(TM) – exterminating whole races, enslaving the survivors, and looting their wealth so that they can’t do nasty things to themselves!

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  70. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    RightNow (1,532) Says:

    October 12th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
    MNIAJ – very interesting. Clearly dinner jacket thinks secularism is a worse evil than Catholicism.

    Its a common thread with all religious lairs liars. Ratzy thinks secularism is a worse evil than islam and nazism.

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  71. burt (8,189 comments) says:

    John Gibson

    burt – isn’t Saturday a holy day in some traditions ?

    Yes it is, but these traditions haven’t had much traction in NZ and to acknowledge them would be to upset the “special sunday” people and we can’t risk that. It’s all part of being PC – you choose what you stand up for based on not upsetting anyone.

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  72. burt (8,189 comments) says:

    While scoffing at the idea that pregnant woman should not see weapons how about we also agree to have the Maori heads DNA tested to ensure they are actually Maori and not some prior people who were tall and had red hair….. That way we can observe the traditions with some honesty.

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  73. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    Ratzy thinks secularism is a worse evil than islam and nazism.

    Can’t help yourself, can you Jack? Lying must be second nature.

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  74. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    RRM,

    You should look up the Black Legend. The one that demonises anything the Spanish ever did. Including the conversion of South America.

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  75. redeye (638 comments) says:

    big bruv (6,966) Says:
    October 12th, 2010 at 10:08 am

    Oh this is brilliant, only in NZ would anybody take notice of this primitive bullshit.

    You ought to get out more Bruv. Have you ever heard of Hindmarsh Island and Secret Women’s Business?

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  76. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    @labrator: Property rights, yeah. If government funding is going to it, it shouldn’t be pandering to superstitious nonsense, particularly where it’s discriminatory. But the Stuff article did make it clearer. Still would prefer either not exhibiting or a piece explicitly noting that Te Papa do not agree with the policy as it is primitive, discriminatory, superstitious and not in keeping with societal norms of equal (non-discriminatory) treatment on the basis of sex characteristics.

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  77. kowtow (8,154 comments) says:

    Yeah, let’s get rid of all this christian rubbish and start anew.

    Let’s start with the calendar,after all it marks the birth of Jesus Christ and is offensive to everyone these days . Let’s have a new year zero. The anti Christ in Rome approved it after all. A fresh new start without the religious bullshit,like some here are calling for.

    Any one who doesn’t agree can be sent to the guillotine or gulag………

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  78. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria (410) Says:

    October 12th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
    Ratzy thinks secularism is a worse evil than islam and nazism.

    Can’t help yourself, can you Jack? Lying must be second nature.

    I deal in Truth, lucyna; you prefer to swallow the lies of the church.

    My comment above is based on my understanding of ratzy’s words when in the UK recenty, here is one report fromn that trip.

    On September 16, Pope Benedict began a State Visit to the United Kingdom and immediately showed himself to be devoid of both historical knowledge and common decency. After one advisor, Cardinal Walter Kasper, was removed from the trip after referring to the UK as a “third world nation” that is in the grips of “a new and aggressive atheism,” Benedict managed to insult Britons, atheists, and rational thinkers the world over.

    Standing next to the Queen, the Pope delivered a highly-politicized speech that was long on intolerance and hatred and short on accuracy. The Pope used this speech to warn Britain about “aggressive forms of secularism” and “atheist extremism” in society. He recounted Britain’s stand against the Nazis, then stated “As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the Twentieth Century.”

    In a few short sentences, Benedict threw down a gauntlet by linking the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany with atheism.

    http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-columbus/pope-decries-secularism-links-atheists-to-nazis

    And there’s plenty more where that came from.

    Lucyna, I implore you to cast off the blindfold of faith and investigate this wondrous world in all its horror and glory. Throw off the shackles of superstitious bullshit and embrace reason and logic and fact.

    —–

    I am quite amused at being called a liar by someone who routinely lies to her own children and withdrew them from formal education to try to hide her lies from the light of free interchange of knowledge.

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  79. BlairM (2,315 comments) says:

    I really could care less what happens at Te Papa – it is an awful museum full of plastic replicas. It doesn’t even have the actual Treaty of Waitangi there, which is odd for a supposed “national museum”.

    The commies and their commie funded museum can do as they please, but I won’t be going and will advise anyone visiting Wellington not to waste their time there either.

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  80. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    You are correct about too many plastic things for children to hit BlairM. But your general bitterness is hard to fathom. The original treaty of Waitangi is not there because it already has a home, in the national archives.

    And I’ve seen some great touring exhibitions there. Pity the building itself is such a 90s mess.

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  81. eszett (2,392 comments) says:

    I’d expect God to protect me from these spirits, so there’s no need for Maori to worry on my behalf.

    Superstitious bullshit.

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  82. Roflcopter (452 comments) says:

    It aint about religion at all.

    It’s bad enough that arty-farty women are so far up themselves they’re almost inside out.

    Heaven forbid having to deal with the trumpy wine-riddled tarts at an exhibition if they’re either on the rag or up the duff as well.

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  83. bhudson (4,736 comments) says:

    Yeah. The New Zealand national museum displays a corrugated iron covered Holden and plastic figurines of the All Blacks that could have been purchased at a local service station (some years ago now.)

    Says a great deal about what these people think we should think of as koiwoi kulcha.

    By chance I was at the Wanganui museum a couple of years ago and I have to say that was a better display of our national history (albeit, of course, with a bit of a regional slant)

    Bring back the stuffed moa!

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  84. burt (8,189 comments) says:

    bhudson

    The stuffed Mao is not PC. It debunks the myth that Maori people were great conservationists. Can’t have that – sorry no Moa.

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  85. transmogrifier (522 comments) says:

    BlairM – it’s “couldn’t care less” – COULDN’T

    I can’t stand that meaningless Americanism “I could care less”.

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  86. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    These taonga are owned by families, hapu and iwi that still believe that these things have consequences. They are concerned for the women, if you have a problem, don’t go and view what is not yours anyway.

    These taonga have considerable spiritual meaning, it is not superstition but simply a different society. The exhibit have the right to ask for these terms, the museum did not have to accept so don’t go blaming people who have deep respect their history and their identity.

    It was only 150 years ago when Maori people lived in this way every day. In that 150 years they have been expected to dump all their culture and spiritual values to amalgamate into a society that is not theirs which is why we see Maori disproportionately committing more crime, being in lower socio economic groups etc

    Maybe you should all open your minds up a bit

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  87. burt (8,189 comments) says:

    Jack McDonald

    Maybe you should all open your minds up a bit

    all – yes that would help a lot.

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  88. BeaB (2,104 comments) says:

    I should think women are at more danger from some living Maori men than from inanimate stone age weapons.

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  89. EverlastingFire (291 comments) says:

    Te Papa is stated owned and help funded by the people, it’s bullshit they even try to implement any type of policy like this that would attempt to exclude any NZer.

    It’s funny how people are so touchy about “sexist” attitudes in NZ, but when it comes to Maori superstition everything is a-ok! You’re an ignorant redneck racist bigot who knows nothing about history to oppose any Maori initiative!

    Shut the fuckin’ place down.

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  90. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    “These taonga are owned by families, hapu and iwi that still believe that these things have consequences. They are concerned for the women, if you have a problem, don’t go and view what is not yours anyway.”

    Yes, I’m sure concern for women is the motive for maintaining such superstitions.

    “it is not superstition”

    It’s not superstition now?

    Superstition is “a credulous belief or notion, not based on reason, knowledge, or experience.”

    “It was only 150 years ago when Maori people lived in this way every day. In that 150 years they have been expected to dump all their culture and spiritual values to amalgamate into a society that is not theirs which is why we see Maori disproportionately committing more crime, being in lower socio economic groups etc

    Maybe you should all open your minds up a bit”

    Maybe you should stay on topic.

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  91. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    I might try to get the Missus along to see it while she’s on the rag. The fight when someone tries to bar her will be good.

    PS: Two Maori men ripped off my old man’s car last year.
    Consequently I find it culturally insensitive to see Maori men driving cars, and I demand that they cease and desist from this immediately out of respect for my cultural values of not liking being ripped off.

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  92. kowtow (8,154 comments) says:

    Hey burt.
    a stuffed Mao would upset the Chinese community…..at least the commie ones. Falung gong might enjoy it though.

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  93. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    Jack McDonald,

    There is this concept called “freedom of religion”. It means that people have the right to believe that there are evil spirits hiding in objects, waiting for a pregnant or menstruating woman to come by so they can leap out and attack her. It also means that other people can believe that they are perfectly safe, that spirits either don’t exist, or if they do, they will have no effect on them.

    To enforce this sort of culture on those that do not believe it, is enforcing your beliefs on others, and thus not allowing mutual freedom of religion. Many take exception.

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  94. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    The pixies told me that you can’t build your motoway her because its impinging on the doorway to tir nan og but if you give me $140,000 I can get a dispensation from the Amadan-na-Briona.

    How is that going to fly?

    just out of interest theres a buckey load more people of Celtic desecent in this country than Maori so how about some of the culteral sensitivity and multi-culteralism for them.

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  95. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria (412) Says:

    October 12th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
    Jack McDonald,

    To enforce this sort of culture on those that do not believe it, is enforcing your beliefs on others, and thus not allowing mutual freedom of religion. Many take exception.

    And this differs from, say, raising your children as good little catholics, without allowing them the opportunity to decide for themselves, how exactly?

    Do you permit your children freedom of religion and its corollary, freedom from religion? if not, why not? Are you not simply enforcing your beliefs on them whilst they are still gullible and trusting?

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  96. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (784 comments) says:

    There is a stuffed moa at Zealandia….. and you can play with its head and neck movements….. knock yourself out

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  97. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria they are not forcing it on anyone. You don’t have to attend.

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  98. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    Jack,

    I am responsible for my children, and as such, I would be totally remiss if I didn’t teach them what I know to be true.

    Just like atheists teaching their children what they believe, and those that believe in the above Maori tapu beliefs can teach their own children about spirits hiding in objects.

    We Catholics have restrictions on converting children that not our own. They cannot be Baptised without the parent’s permission. This is because we believe God gives children to parents, who have primary responsibility for them, therefore if the parent objects to what we know is true, there is nothing we can do until the child grows up and choose their own path.

    Maybe you should do the same, huh?

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  99. dad4justice (8,051 comments) says:

    “A rule forbidding pregnant or menstruating women”

    Will this also apply to visitors at Eden Park now that they have changed it into a Maori pa?

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  100. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    And it is based on experience and knowledge, many incidents have occurred in relation to tapu objects that have led to death or visitations

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  101. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    Jack McDonald,

    Yeah, I don’t have to attend. But this whole freedom of religion concept has gone over your head, hasn’t it?

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  102. Thomas the Unbeliever (141 comments) says:

    I hope that all food and hospitality employers (McDodnals, Foodstuffs, Progressive et al) are enforcing this in respect of both their customers and their staff.

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  103. James Stephenson (2,137 comments) says:

    just out of interest theres a buckey load more people of Celtic desecent in this country than Maori so how about some of the culteral sensitivity and multi-culteralism for them.

    You’re a couple of thousand years late at asking for cultural sensitivity for the celtic religions.

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  104. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    no it hasn’t Lucia Maria but It’s about being respectful to other cultures. if catholics had rules around the viewing of their artifacts even if it was in a national museum I would follow it.

    Its about mutual respect and understanding

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  105. wreck1080 (3,864 comments) says:

    maoris should be more concerned about why they beat their children to death and put them in clothes dryers.

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  106. dad4justice (8,051 comments) says:

    “Its about mutual respect and understanding”

    Bang, bang, maori Kahui lacked a soul.

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  107. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    “And it is based on experience and knowledge, many incidents have occurred in relation to tapu objects that have led to death or visitations”

    What a person attributes something to doesn’t mean it was caused by that. Try and replicate the results using scientific procedures. Furthermore, try not only to get results but to ascertain causality using scientific procedures. It is based upon superstitious belief.

    As it stands, Te Papa has given implicit approval to such a belief – which is based upon superstition and discriminatory on grounds of sex. This is not appropriate for an organisation which receives government funding.

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  108. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    Jack McDonald,

    no it hasn’t Lucia Maria but It’s about being respectful to other cultures. if catholics had rules around the viewing of their artifacts even if it was in a national museum I would follow it.

    Its about mutual respect and understanding

    Being respectful to other cultures should be limited to actions. Menstruation is something that happens, that I can’t control, that is part of being a woman. It’s not an action. It’s not like being asked to cover up bare arms, for instance. So to say that in order to be respectful, I should not enter into certain spaces because I happen to be experiencing a natural, regular bodily function that is easily contained using modern sanitary products because someone thinks that I may be attacked by an evil spirit if I happen to be in the vicinity of an ancient weapon, or go into the garden or frolic on the beach goes way, way, way beyond the request for being respectful.

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  109. eszett (2,392 comments) says:

    # Jack McDonald (154) Says:
    October 12th, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    And it is based on experience and knowledge, many incidents have occurred in relation to tapu objects that have led to death or visitations

    Yeah, right. Any proof of that? Or is that just stories and myths?

    Anyway, don’t you think it is then up to the women to decide whether they should take that “risk”?

    And the point is, it is a museum. There are lots of exhibits that would violate somebody’s superstition somewhere around the world.
    It’s an institution about knowledge and we know that it’s nothing but superstition and that there is no danger whatsoever. So catering to that out of “respect” is not really helpful.

    Decanker’s suggestion is spot on. ( http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/10/superstitious_bullshit.html#comment-751404 )
    That’s all the was needed.

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  110. slightlyrighty (2,506 comments) says:

    Are Maori women in the military excused from duty if they are menstrual? After all, they shouldn’t be touching the weapons.

    Are Maori women allowed one week off every 28 days if they work in a commercial kitchen or a garden center?

    Of course not. Why the kowtowing to a belief that we should have moved on from?

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  111. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    jack and Lucia maria

    Religions are not deserving of respect.

    Cultures are not deserving of respect.

    People may well be worthy of respect.

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  112. labrator (1,893 comments) says:

    @lucia maria You can go to the exhibit if it’s your period. You’re not being stopped. The word ban is a NZ Herald beat up that so many of you have fallen for. Go, tell the exhibitors it’s your period, and if they force-ably remove you, then I’ll stick up for your right to be there. However, since the notice was advisory, much like the “no cellphone” signs you see out the front of churches, your self-righteousness and “freedom of religion” argument is pointless.

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  113. EverlastingFire (291 comments) says:

    “many incidents have occurred in relation to tapu objects that have led to death or visitations”

    Sounds scary bru.

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  114. BeaB (2,104 comments) says:

    Superstitious tosh however we try to dress it up. Interesting it’s always women who are banned or forbidden in these primitive societies.
    Thank goodness society has moved on. Modern educated Maori must have a good laugh at Pakeha piously intoning these mad old ideas.

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  115. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    “Bang, bang, maori Kahui lacked a soul.”

    And what does that have to do anything? Domestic violence is a serious problem in the Maori community, which needs to be remedied, but is partly a result of the brutal colonization that we were put through.

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  116. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Jack, sorry, domestic violence is a problem in maoridom becasue too many maori cling to a vioolent culture. They need to give up their superstitions, their tongue poking and threatening war dances and become civilised.

    …but is partly a result of the brutal colonization that we were put through, unlike, say the Angles when the Saxons invaded, or maybe the French when they were over run by Germanic hordes.

    Maybe there is so much domestic violence in Scotland because of the English invasion, nothing to do with the whisky,

    Time for maori to grow up and get over the past.

    We won. You lost. Now, let’s share the peace together.

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  117. dad4justice (8,051 comments) says:

    “the brutal colonization that we were put through.”

    Get real boy, they teach you that in class today? Visit any prison boy then get back to me!
    Who got thrown in the pot boy!

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  118. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Jack McDonald

    “but is partly a result of the brutal colonization that we were put through.”

    Are you serious or is that comment a wind up?

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  119. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    I am deadly serious.

    dad4justice: Society has always fucked over Maori, and all the proletariat. If you don’t realise that then you are the one that needs to wake up, boy!

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  120. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    I’ve realised this debate has nothing to do with me. I was never going to see the exhibition anyway, with or without a pregnant or menstruating woman accompanying me.

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  121. dad4justice (8,051 comments) says:

    Tragically the youth of today are taught the poor me maori victimization card. My local tribe elders have drivers open the doors of their taxpayer-funded Limo’s. Grow up you stupid boy McDonald.

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  122. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    Yeah they do because they have bought in2 the captalist system for their own selfish purposes. I don’t just speak from education but also from experience.

    You say your for justice? Clearly you are not.
    It’s ironic that the ‘adult’ in this debate fails in his arguments and starts insulting the teenager.

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  123. dad4justice (8,051 comments) says:

    “You say your for justice”

    Ask the screws at Pap or Camp Rolly how many Maori men I help you wet behind the ears boy. Grow up, you indoctrinated fool. A real smart arse without worldly experience. I got better things to do than argue with a boy on a bloody computer. Get a life.

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  124. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Jack McDonald

    Sadly I suspected you might be “deadly serious” about colonisation being the cause of Maori domestic violence.

    Can you back up that statement with facts or are you just another in the long line of bleeding heart liberals who endlessly look for somebody else to blame?

    While it might be convenient to blame colonisation for the problem there is nothing that I can see to support that assertion, indeed, there is more evidence to suggest that had Maori embraced the ways of the colonisers a little more enthusiastically then Maori would be in a far better position today.

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  125. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    Notice I wrote partly the reason. And I stand by that, colonization has led to disproportionate Maori poverty, and poverty often leads to these kinds of acts.

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  126. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Jack

    I cannot see where you have provided a reason or some proof that colonisation is the cause of domestic violence.

    I note that in your last post you said that poverty is one of the reasons, well I have to tell you that is clearly not the case.

    When one looks at the socio economic ladder there are a group of people who sit well below Maori, these are Pacific Island people, they (the PI’s) do not kill their kids in the same numbers as Maori, they are not involved in anywhere near the same level of domestic violence and their crime rate is far less than Maori.

    Clearly you are “standing by” something that is totally incorrect.

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  127. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    Would have thought Maori would want to maximise the number of people viewing this exhibition and – potentially – taking an interest in the wider Maori culture. Not turn away people who are interested based on bullshit stone-aged mumbo jumbo superstitions that not even the old people take seriously any more.

    But hey, if Maori want to facilitate the perpetuation of “the Maoris this, the Maoris that” exclusion ignorance and division through small petty things like this, they appear to have the freedom to do so, and more fool them for taking it.

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  128. Scott (1,763 comments) says:

    Agree with you Luciana at 11:34 AM. With the decline of Christian belief in New Zealand we in some ways have become more atheist but in other ways there is a lot more room for other religious worldviews such as Maori spirituality.

    So I see two trends here — increase in atheism, increase in other religions and “superstition” as you put it. Indeed the typical teenager and young adult with his or her tattoos and body piercings seems to me more pagan than anything else, certainly in their outward appearance anyway.

    Many people in New Zealand today don’t seem to believe in anything very much. As someone else put it, “people who believe in nothing will fall for anything”.

    And finally I think there is a third trend emerging, the growth of some strong Christian churches here in New Zealand and in the West.

    Those churches are really reaching young people who are tired of the secular/liberal worldview and its offspring of abortion and divorce and general moral decline that is destroying our culture and our nation. So Christianity may well make a comeback.

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  129. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    Jack McDonald, rich Maori have over $25 billion. Maori culture involves a class hierarchy. The poor Maori aren’t the rich Maori’s problem are they? Frankly they would have been poor Maori with or without colonisation. There just wouldn’t have been so many of them.

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  130. RRM (9,770 comments) says:

    And yeah, never mind that a Maori 5yo who starts at a free state school in 2010 has all the same (free) educational opportunities as a 5yo of any colour. If he drops out it’s all because of colonisation.

    And don’t start on how Chinese & Korean kids excel in our school system in spite of all sorts of very real language barriers etc. You can’t compare something as trivial as speaking a different language at home, to the day-to-day struggle of knowing (as a 5yo) that ancestors you never met and don’t know the names of were – oh the humanity – COLONISED a hundred and fifty years ago!

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  131. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Jack

    I have just had a look at your blog, do you have any idea at all what it is like to be poor?

    I had thought I was talking with somebody who is Maori, imagine my surprise to find out that you are nothing more than a “white mofo” kid, what makes it worse is that you are a kid who has been brainwashed by the luddite Green party.

    Clearly you have lost the ability to think for yourself, the “colonisation” bullshit theory of yours can only come from spending far too much time hanging around with losers and parasite like Delahunty and the rest of the moonbat Greens?

    Might I suggest that you get out into the real world, rip yourself away from your parents cosy little middle class bliss and find out what life is all about, as it stands at the moment you have no bloody idea.

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  132. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    When are Maori going to start taking a little personal responsibility? – and I say that as someone who is part Maori. I get sick and tired of this “woe is me” attitudinal crap which so many Maori with a chip on their shoulder continue to fall back on.

    When I was going through the education system I could have applied for all sorts of grants, etc simply because I was Maori – but I refused. I refused because I didn’t need a crutch to achieve at college and university. And I put myself through uni as well.

    Until Maori start addressing the disproportionate number of Maori in prison, the high number of violent Maori crime, and the high rate of Maori family abuse, then these trends will continue to increase. If you teach a Maori kid that the “white man” owes him a living; that New Zealand is owned by Maori and the “white man” is little more than an unwelcome guest, and other such racist crap, then you can expect the little shits to perpetuate the hate and the ever increasing non-conformist attitudes towards the “white man’s” system.

    If Maori don’t sort out their shit, and stop making claim against the rest of New Zealand, then there will be a civil war in this country – and I won’t be fighting on the Maori side.

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  133. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    That a piece of greenstone is imbued with a life force as it is fashioned into a weapon, or takes on some spiritual being of its own, when used to slay a victim, then rests over several decades ready to damage either a person nearing it, or a baby in the case of a pregnant viewer, is what we are being asked to believe here ?

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  134. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Scott (707) Says:
    October 12th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    mustn’t forget the 50,000 who don’t go to an institutional church but meet in informal fellowships and 2-3’s.

    yvette
    but isn’t that the continual message of the media (mostly leftwing liberal), I could point you to any number of Tv and Movies in the last 5 yrs and presently on the screen.

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  135. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    Big Bruv

    How dare you say I’m not Maori! Wtf do you know about my whakapapa! I may look like a “white mofo kid” 2 u but I descend from Taranaki and Te Whakatohea. Don’t assume what you don’t know.

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  136. hellsbells (1 comment) says:

    Well, First of all I think it’s important to acknowledge that women are not being BANNED, they are being advised against attending, a mere suggestion. Perhaps not unlike a Christian may advise you not attend a satanic ritual.
    It’s a suggestion, based on a belief system, not an enforced law.

    At a tangihanga, most Maori women would not enter an urupa, or cemetary whilst pregnant or menstruating either, because in Maoridom a common belief is held, that everything has mauri, or a lifeforce that can affect, and be affected.

    Some of the items on display may be considered “cursed objects” and if you believe in the seriousness of that, it is only out of courtesy that you would advise someone to be cautious around them.

    You can acknowledge the beauty of a Church building without being a Christian, just like you can be a New Zealander and respect a tikanga Maori environment whilst wanting to look at Maori objects.

    For the same reason I would not burn a Koran in a Mosque, I would not be deliberately culturally offensive whilst actually actively trying to observe, take part in, or learn more about someone else’s culture – generally the reason you would go to a Maori Exhibition at Te Papa.

    I believe that to live in New Zealand it’s important to be able to be comfortable operating in a tikanga Maori environment, or at the very least, respectfully let Maori have their kaupapa, without it affecting yours.

    Personally as a european/pakeha woman, I am not offended in the slightest, and would respect their wishes.

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  137. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Don’t assume what you don’t know

    Why shouldn’t he? You certainly have.

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  138. Viking2 (11,346 comments) says:

    Well you didn’t learn jackshit on the way down.

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  139. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    That a piece of greenstone is imbued with a life force as …

    And how is that any different from the equally stupid belief that a wave of a hand and the ringing of a bell turns a cracker in to human flesh?

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  140. Seán (397 comments) says:

    DPF said: “Would Te Papa kowtow to the Roman Catholic Church if it insisted that a collection of church art work only be viewable by men?”

    Is this referring to a real example or is it made up? A silly dig from it’s biggest fan? Either way we know the answer is no.. David would have been better here to note how Te Papa takes so much care with Maori spirituality yet its disdain of Christianity is clearly a display of hypocrisy.

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  141. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    MyNameIsJack, you have no argument from me there.

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  142. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Master Jack McDonald

    “How dare you say I’m not Maori! Wtf do you know about my whakapapa! I may look like a “white mofo kid” 2 u but I descend from Taranaki and Te Whakatohea. Don’t assume what you don’t know.”

    Jack, I have no interest at all where your mum and dad take you skiing, how the hell would I know about that?…..and yes, you do look like a “white mofo” do you feel ashamed about that?

    Nevertheless that does not excuse your stupid comments about colonisation being the cause of Maori domestic violence, you said that I should not assume what I do not know, and guess what….you are right, might I suggest that you take your own advice re colonisation and Maori.

    Now, how about you provide me with some proof that colonisation is the cause for Maori domestic violence?

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  143. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Sean, direct quote from your link:

    Christian Heritage Party leader Graham Capill says the museum took great care to observe Maori spiritual mores but ran roughshod over Christian values. “It’s increasingly clear that any faith or belief is acceptable in New Zealand, except for the Christian faith,” Capill says. “Te Papa needs to be not only culturally sensitive, but also spiritually sensitive.”

    Nice to know you take your moral and spiritual guidance form a paedohile. Are you catholic priest, by any chance?

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  144. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    Jack McDonald,

    High Maori abuse stats have nothing to do with colonialism, or poverty or capitalism and everything to do with relationships.

    In DPF’s previous post on women, I put forward the shocking suggestion that NZ’s climbing cohabitation rate is responsible for increasing violence against women (and children). And today in looking for Maori marriage rates, I found the following:

    According to government records, back in 1926 when the statistics on marriage were first collected, the marriage rate for Maori was 69 percent and for non-Maori, 62 percent. Over the next 50 years marriage rates increased until by 1971, the marriage rate for Maori was 73 percent and for non-Maori, 77 percent.

    But the introduction of the Domestic Purposes Benefit in the mid seventies changed all that, especially for Maori. By 1981 the marriage rate for Maori had slipped to 62 percent, by 1991 it had fallen to 50 percent, and by 2001 to 46 percent. In comparison, by 2001 the non-Maori marriage rate had gradually declined to 70 percent.

    It is this collapse of marriage and dramatic rise in the DPB that is at the heart of the Maori child abuse crisis. Maori women are now heavily over-represented on the DPB, making up 41 percent of all women on that benefit. But the trend for teenage parents is even more worrying. Maori teenagers make up 55 percent of all teenage parents on the DPB, and unless this trend is turned around, the Maori child abuse crisis is set to worsen.

    Now in case you haven’t clicked, cohabitation means living together without making a public commitment. That’s not colonialisation doing that, chances are the women are jumping at the free money in the form of the DPB and not waiting for the “I do.”

    As for your past stuffing you up, I should be the poster child for that. My Dad (as a child) was taken to Siberia in a cattle train and lived in a work camp for two years before being transfered to the middle of Kazahstan without enough food and left to starve to death (the deal detail found a few of the older kids still alive and nursed them back to health), while as my mother grew up in Nazi occupied Poland, followed by Soviet occupied Poland. Yet at no point were my parents ever violent to each other, or to their children.

    There are worse things than colonialisation or poverty.

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  145. Jack McDonald (199 comments) says:

    No I do not feel ashamed. I am equally proud of my Irish and Scottish ancestry

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  146. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Lucia

    Don’t confuse poor old Master Jack with facts, he is not interested in the truth.

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  147. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Oh FUCK, here comes Lucyna with more of her marriage stats.

    Lucyna, what was the marriage rate for maori in, say 1700? 1600?

    You are simply trying to twist stats to support your bogus argument that marriage changes everything. marriage doesn’t matter, people DO!

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  148. kowtow (8,154 comments) says:

    Campbell Live covering the issue. Not even allowed to film the stuff for goodness sake! So it gets worse.

    Tell you what ,there looks to be a lot of jobs at Our Place that could be cut and save the old long suffering tax payer a shit load of money, now that would respect my culture.

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  149. dad4justice (8,051 comments) says:

    They say advance stages of the Jack rot the brain.

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  150. Seán (397 comments) says:

    Yes I noticed he was quoted in there and I aware of his conviction. Your conclusion though, is childish.

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  151. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Come on Master Jack McDonald…..give me some facts, I am keen to hear how you have come to the conclusion that colonisation is the cause of Maori domestic violence.

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  152. Lucia Maria (2,275 comments) says:

    My previous comment should have said “death detail” not “deal detail”, ie those sent into bury the dead once they’d starved.

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  153. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    “If Maori don’t sort out their shit,…”

    They never will. It’s easier for their elites to continue riding the gravy train and having a wonderful life, while many of their their ilk remain at the bottom of the heap collecting the dole and populating our prisons.

    Only education will get Maoridom out of its rut, but I see no desite within itself to change. Kind words, mea culpas, blame denial, buck-passing, and platitudes will not change a delicate situation.

    Nobody can deny it: Maori leadership failed their own people for many, many years. Still is.

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  154. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    Manolo

    “Nobody can deny it: Maori leadership failed their own people for many, many years. Still is.”

    You are of course right, however there is one group who have failed Maori more then their own “leadership” and that is the Labour party.
    For generations Labour have used and abused the Maori vote, once a year Labour leaders and MP’s have trotted off to Waitangi and pretended that they give a shit about Maori poverty, crime and domestic violence, and then every three years they promised that if Maori voted for Labour things will change.

    Of course nothing did change (apart from a few baubles handed out to Maori leaders) yet time and time again Maori were stupid enough to vote Labour.

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  155. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    OK sean, here’s another conclusion for you.

    Rational people do not belive in gods, irrational people do.

    Rational people understand you are using a false analogy.

    In the case of the maori taonga, it is the creators of the work or their heirs who are imposing conditions. The imposition of those conditions has nothing to do with xianity.

    In the case of the virgin in the condom, the artist placed no such conditions on the viewing of his work. Again, that lack of conditions has nothing to do with xtianity.

    Tha fact that some xians were upset about a depiction of a non existent woman (or one, who if she DID exist no one knows what she looked like) makes them as pig shit ignorant as muslims getting pissed off about depctions of Muhhammed.

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  156. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    “I am equally proud of my Irish and Scottish ancestry” really? Whiskey probably caused more Maori deaths than poverty related conditions. You must be one conflicted individual.

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  157. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    No true scotsman drinks whiskey!

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  158. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    I’m not sure he counts as a true scotsman?

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  159. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    “No true scotsman drinks whiskey!”

    Never been there aye MNIJ?

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  160. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    och aye the noo, another sassenach.

    No true scotsman drinks whiskey, that’s for the Irish, the Americans and all the other palateless tosspots.

    A true scotsman drinks whisky!

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  161. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    MNIJ

    Yep..you got me, suckered in by the Yankee spelling.

    Fir a wee min-it thair eh didna keen whit yous was on aboot, it wus nippin ma heid.

    Eh wus thinkin that yous wus an edjit wit wus speekin oot yar arse.

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  162. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Victoria University Maori Studies Lecturer Te Ripowai Higgins said Te Papa needed to find a middle ground.
    “The way Te Papa has exhibited needs to be looked at, not to totally abandon one for the other, but have some more robust discussion around it,” she said.

    Te Papa spokeswoman Jane Keig said the rule was imposed to respect Maori beliefs surrounding the Taonga Maori collection.
    “There are items within that collection that have been used in sacred rituals. That rule is in place with consideration for both the safety of the taonga and the women … Maori regard pregnant, or menstruating, women as sacred and the policy was aimed at protecting them from the objects.”
    – stuff.co.nz

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  163. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Eh wus thinkin that yous wus an edjit wit wus speekin oot yar arse.

    Nah, I leave that to dad4paedophilia and redsterbaiter.

    [DPF: That is 30 demerits for the paedophilia line]

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  164. lofty (1,305 comments) says:

    Checked out the boys blog site….WTF is a Liberal Communitarianist???????

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  165. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    The Wizard of Christchurch should have stood for Mayor of Christchurch. The council might have been at home with his magic.

    That’s a thought after hearing Islay McLeod on Gentleman Jim Mora’s programme on National Radio this afternoon. McLeod was the top poller in the recent elections for the city’s Hagley-Ferrymead Community Board.

    McLeod was talking to Jim and the other panelist about the warning off of pregnant and menstruating women visiting the Te Papa taonga collection. In part, McLeod said:

    Well, I’m sorry, but we, the pakeha, imposed one helluva lot of cultural practices where it sic has harmed Maori and where it hasn’t harmed Maori. And I don’t think we are in a position to tell them what to do do. I understand that these taonga were handed over on this condition, and that is a moral contract if you like, and so it should be observed.

    I think also that if I was either menstruating or pregnant, given all the beliefs and things we have around and all the adoptions, we, the pakeha have taken from Maori, like tapu lifting services and haka and so forth, I certainly wouldn’t be even wanting to take the risk of going anywhere near any of those taonga, let alone considering causing any offence.

    “We all have our own little superstitions and things and customs and beliefs and cultural,” McLeod said to Jim. She described the warning to pregnant and menstruating women a mark of respect as well as a “protection”.

    Michelle Hippolite, Te Papa acting ceo, confirmed that when taonga went on public exhibition there would be no need for warning pregnant and menstruating women not to visit it.

    “Not all of the taonga that are in the taonga collection store have been on public display,” Hippolyte said. “We do know that there are some taonga in the collection store that were from the period of war. They were around in … tangi times. Where they have an element of sacredness associated with them we have embarked to provide information to those women – and men – but more so women who coming to visit the taonga Maori store to contemplate, I suppose, the space within which they will encounter. So one of the reasons why women who are hapu and have their periods during this time are asked to think about their state is parlty because they will be entering an area where we can’t be sure we know exactly what the journey of those taonga Maori have been.”

    These encounters that all people can have can sometimes evoke a spiritual relationship – “very hard to quantify what that means for some people”.

    “But I’ve certainly observed men and women who have entered into the taonga Maori space – albeit they are usually Maori men and women – who have become very emotional when they go into that area. If our visitors are not alert to the encounters they may have, it can and may have an impact on their state of mind. It may be very positive or it could be negative.”

    Hippolite said women carrying a child may have such an encounter, and it could affect the child as well as the woman.

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  166. nickb (3,686 comments) says:

    Bruv:

    I am a Youth MP for 2010 (Sue Kedgley)

    say no more.

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  167. nickb (3,686 comments) says:

    Anyone who emulates an MP who would take away my rights to a greasy BK quad stacker burger is someone I would find it hard to be civilised with.

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  168. TimG_Oz (925 comments) says:

    Judaism has similar regulations regarding menstruating women.

    Actually, no, it doesn’t.

    Under Orthodox Judaism, a husband and wife are not permitted to touch each other whilst the woman is menstruating. There is no prohibtion on women being part of society (i.e. working, preparing food, tending to children).

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  169. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Pregnant and menstruating women pay their taxes don’t they? Anyone who says they can’t go and see this thing they paid for can fuck right off. Seriously, do any actual maori people still believe this steaming old horseshit in the 21st century or is it just put about by politically correct wankers looking for new ways to get offended on someone else’s behalf?

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  170. dad4justice (8,051 comments) says:

    “dad4paedophilia”

    One day Paul Egerton Piesse you are going to get what you deserve you gutless mad snake!

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  171. jackp (668 comments) says:

    This is nothing compared to what is coming! The new foreshore and seabed act coming in december will make your fingers numb on kiwiblog.

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  172. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Kris K said:

    Until Maori start addressing the disproportionate number of Maori in prison, the high number of violent Maori crime, and the high rate of Maori family abuse,

    A couple of points worth mentioning for Kris’ benefit.

    Maori are locked up in our jails by our colonial based law ie white man’s law. Maori alone cannot avoid jail while Pakeha culture is to lock them up in a totally discriminatory fashion. And the majority of prisoners are locked up for non-violent offending.

    But this extract from a recent Pita Sharples speech will perhaps rectify some widespread misapprehensions:

    I want to say that Maori people in Aotearoa have very serious issues related to the criminal justice system, leading to very high incarceration rates for Maori.

    The over-representation of Māori begins at the apprehension stage and gradually increases through prosecution, conviction and sentencing to custody.
    Māori are apprehended for at least three times the number of offences as Europeans[1] and receive fewer warnings, cautions or diversions than Europeans;[2]
    In 2007, it was reported that Māori were eleven times more likely to be remanded in custody than Europeans awaiting Court appearance or sentence;[3]
    13 per cent of all convictions against Māori result in a custodial sentence (compared to 8 per cent for Europeans and Pacific peoples);[4]
    Over half of Māori inmates are in prison for sentences of less than one year;[5]
    All of this reflects a high use of imprisonment for Māori for low level offending.
    If I have a message of truth to power, it would be that Maori will never allow the current situation to be considered normal. The fact that it seems to be accepted or tolerated is a national disgrace.

    (emphasis added)

    Furthermore, the fact that almost all indigenous, colonised people display generally the same dismal statistics in their coloniser’s legal system indicates that the kind of demonisation Kris heaps upon his fellow Maori is simply ignorant and misplaced. It’s not Maori; it’s the after effects of colonisation and the resulting dispossession, oppression and discrimination.

    Domestic violence, usually unknown in indigenous populations in pre-European days, is a common denominator.

    The situation with the exhibit is purely one of respect for another culture, which does not even breach our laws, and this beat-up is simply unnecessary but entirely predictable.

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  173. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Lucy Hansen posted at 10.13am (Oct 13):

    Domestic violence, usually unknown in indigenous populations in pre-European days, is a common denominator.

    There was no domestic violence in pre-European days? What about domestic slaves, the victims of tribal warfare? Sometimes they were fattened and eaten. Obviously there would also have been rape of female slaves.

    Given there were no homes as such in pre-European days, but people lived in hapu villages,the violence was the equivalent of modern domestic violence.

    Indigenous populations do have problems adjusting to the onset of new more advanced cultures, but it doesn’t help to portray them as natural paradises as portrayed by Rousseau. Pre-Western Maori life was neither that, nor entirely the brutish warrior culture portrayed by Hobbes. However, the physical evidence is there was a lot of the latter, and centuries of such tribal warfare may, by natural selection and survival,have led to hereditary violent personalities. Perhaps this is a factor in high rates of Maori offending and imprisonment.

    Next thing, Lucy, you will be arguing there was no cannibalism in pre-European Maori society.

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  174. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Jack5, you are equivocating – perhaps because it’s convenient to your prejudices?

    By your account, Nato bombers tearing apart Iraqi and Afghan kids is domestic violence?

    Nothing I wrote indicates that I believe pre-European culture was some kind of paradise. Far from it, in fact.

    And in the end, your argument descends into pure racism, well disproven by modern research.

    It’s OK, you have found a supportive home at Kiwiblog.

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  175. PaulL (6,019 comments) says:

    Luc, if you dislike Kiwiblog so much, why do you keep returning? Abused blogger syndrome? Is there such a thing?

    I’d be interested in the proof that you have from modern research? Are you suggesting that humans are immune to the impacts of selective breeding where other species aren’t? So, for example, you’d argue that African Americans aren’t, on average, stronger/faster than Africans who weren’t subject to the slave trade, and the selective breeding that created (i.e. anyone weak pretty much died on the ships or once on the plantations). Do you have research that proves that as well?

    Before you ask, I don’t have research that says it is so, just that it’s a theory I’ve heard before, and one that seems plausible. It doesn’t matter much to me either way, so I’ve never investigated it. But you seem to care deeply and have some research to share.

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  176. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Re Lucy Hansen at 2.40pm:

    Lucy dodges the question as usual. Instead of explaining why he believes domestic violence is a Western problem he raves on about Nato bombers in Iraq (that’s a surprise, I didn’t know Nato was there) and Afghanistan, and throws out his ad hominem rubbish of “racism” and “prejudices”.

    What is this raving leftist arguing? That Nato colonised NZ?

    And what can this mean?

    And in the end, your argument descends into pure racism, well disproven by modern
    research.

    What is disproven? What research? Into what? That pre-European Maori were cannibals, kept slaves, and at times ate them?

    If there is racism in these threads, it frequently comes from Lucy and his blind support for bropartheid; from his attributing all the problems that Maori have had in adjusting to the modern world, to European settlers and the culture they brought here; from his laying the blame for all Maori ills onto non-Maori (that is citizens who don’t identify as Maori).

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  177. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    PaulL

    I love Kiwiblog. Where on earth do you get the idea from that I don’t? Much more fun than those other sites.

    Jack5, you wrap your deeply held racist views in a thin veneer of Sociology 101.

    I never stated absolutes like you accuse me as doing. I simply advanced truth. There is nothing inherent in Maori that leads inevitably to their current situation of disadvantage in New Zealand. On the contrary, they reflect all the ills common amongst colonised peoples. If you can’t accept that, it reflects poorly on you.

    Even today, the current ruckus about beach access is designed to keep Maori in a disadvantaged position.

    You should read the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, thoroughly, and get back to me then.

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  178. jackp (668 comments) says:

    Luc, what I don’t like about your argument is when you are loosing you have to attack the person and call them racist. Peter Sharple did that today.. can’t talk about the facts or “absolutes”, just “advanced truths” Blaming Europeans for your problems is bullshit. I suppose those two brothers who put that child in the dryer for entertainment is european’s fault because they created the dryer… makes a lot of sense. People like you who take no responsibility with your lives should just go away, maybe across the tasman. New Zealand would be a better place.

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  179. jackp (668 comments) says:

    Or, you can look at the positive side… the Maori elite who are worth over 15 billion, they must blame europeans for their success and give all that money back to us, the taxpayer.

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  180. big bruv (13,678 comments) says:

    “You should read the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, thoroughly, and get back to me then”

    What, read it for a laugh?.

    I also had a laugh at this comment of yours…

    “There is nothing inherent in Maori that leads inevitably to their current situation of disadvantage in New Zealand”

    You could not be more wrong, two or three generations of brainwashing and liberal hand wringers poisoning their mind has created a huge victim mentality problem, often Maori are told or bloody well encouraged to be unsuccessful because it suits other peoples political agenda.

    I can only echo the comments of jackp at 7.46, you and so many of your ilk have a set play book that you drag out every time when you are faced with an opponent who does not swallow that colonisation being the mother of all ills bullshit argument.

    When that fails you revert to the tried and true “redneck” and “racist” name calling.

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  181. Dazzaman (1,134 comments) says:

    Heh, this is so funny. Plenty of hand-wringing from the rednecks. You lot are just going to have to handle it. We’re on the rise and more of “this stuff” is going to become common place….LOL!!

    Te Papa agreed to the conditions of the exhibit. Case closed!

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  182. Jack5 (5,007 comments) says:

    Lucy Hansen is the weakest poster on Kiwiblog, not excepting crazy Philu. Lucy may also be the most racist.

    Lucy never answers argument with argument, but repeatedly bleats at all his opponents that they are racist.
    For example he ignores challenges of his ludicrous statement:

    Domestic violence, usually unknown in indigenous populations in pre-European day

    What about slavery and cannibalism, Lucy? Was it not domestic violence to give someone a fatal tap on the had with a mere. Agreed that Maori lived in a hapu’s pa, rather than households. But the pa was their home, and there was a lot of violence there – bloodshed, hapu and tribal warfare, abuse, murder and eating of slaves. Mayhem to make Auckland’s brown suburbs look oases of peace.

    Lucy doesn’t defend himself from accusations he is racist because of his support for apartheid style separation in NZ, in politics, justice and all fields of Government. He supports race-based prisons, too. This is apartheid reborn as bropartheid.

    Lucy’s depth is reflected in the shallowness and racism of his supporters, like Dazzaman at 9.02 who labels all who disagree with Lucy “rednecks”.

    “We’re on the rise,” Dazzaman says.

    Not if you count only full-blooded Maori. The mixed race emerging will almost certainly choose Western culture, Western pop culture, Western sports, the Western-created internet, and the current world language, English, over an overly narrow purely Maori culture.

    You are headed the way of the moa, Dazzaman.

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  183. Ngati Tahi (1 comment) says:

    Crikey – I thought the issue was a bit of mumbo jumbo cultural relativism at Te Papa. Amazing how our little Maori anachronisms are used to take full on swipes at us as a people. Yep, the Te Papa thing is cultural twaddle. I would have added to that last sentence ‘you don’t need a degree to work that out’, but after the statements of Mutu et al, you definitly shouldn’t have a degree to work that out.

    The beliefs of some confused Maori re menstruating or pregnant woment are no different to Pakeha beliefs in 9/11 conspiracies, cellphone towers causing cancer, liver cleansing diets, pyramid therapy, homeopathy, psychic detectives (sensing murder is the best comedy on TV – bring it back), end-of-days scenarios (revelations and armageddon, 2012, global warming/cooling, millenium bug), bio-mag woolrest, alien abductions, demon possession, MMR jab causes autism (thanks for that doozy Oprah and Jenny), Erin Brokevich and so on.

    How is it that our relatively rare Maori anachronisms seem to get 10x more media play for ‘backwardness and superstition’, then the wonky beliefs above that are de rigeuer amongst Pakeha? The list of your outlandish stoneage beliefs makes us Maori look positively scientific in comparison. You Pakeha really do need to bring yourselves as a people into the 21st Century.

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  184. Rufus (648 comments) says:

    Best quote of the day – “Rational people do not belive in gods, irrational people do”.

    Brilliant. I bow to your superior use or reason. No one, and I mean no one can argue with such a statement.

    Te Papa – waste of space. Trying to be relevant. Overseas visitors always want to go visit, I cringe each time I have to guide them through.

    Luc Hansen – if Maori don’t do so well with white man’s laws, why did they sign up to them when they signed a Treaty with the Crown?

    The arguement re: lower incarceration rates, domestic violence rates for Pacific Islanders vs. Maori stands

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  185. kaitiakingapapahu (1 comment) says:

    I am maori and respect Tikanga and Kawa. I know that there is more out there than just living on this whenua (land) and I dare not to break some Tapu just as my ancestors chose to abide by these customs. Especially those that hold ancestors and the deseased mauri or incantations that open up the spiritual realms like karanga. The tapu are put there to protect people, places and things. To break tapu would be foolish.

    It is also a way of upholding customs and protocol. Maori people are very spiritual. Tapu has protected people, places and things for years. Ignorance on the other hand the opposite. In the city I live in ignorant people have built sewerage plants built on top on burial grounds. Maori villages confiscated, disregarded and replaced with British arcitecture. Tapu being ignored has been the result is mass devastation and Ruamoko (Pakatuanukus unborn child – God of Volcanoes and Earthquakes) is restless. All those buildings have fallen to the ground, people have died. The ground still continues to shake on a daily basis.

    I am hapu and to protect myself and my unborn child I will not go to Tangi (funeral), I will not do karanga (open up the gateway to the other realms) I will not be around objects that have been used in warfare and have the blood of the dead and their mauri still on the artifects, and advise others not to. Respect the tapu that have been put in place in our times. I strongly advise people to respect Maori customs and values. Women are Tapu (Sacred). Women should feel great about that! They should be treated with the upmost respect because they are the bearers of life. Tihei Mauri Ora

    To install Respect in people is a good thing and elimates ignorance. Ignorance and not understanding things because you are fearful of them and so you dismiss them as superstitious bullshit is the F.E.A.R False Evidence Appearing Real. It is the cause of so much hatred and the wars in the world. Tapu is not something to be scared of, but teaches us respect. Respect for people, Respect for a Race, Respect for our Kaumatua, Respect for the Land and Respect for Women and unborn children.

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