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January 30, 2011 2:00pm by David Farrar

A challenge for creationists?

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dad4justice

“I’m a real Peter too ”

Haha sorry mate you hardly represent a rock. Maybe a jellyfish or timid rabbit on acid. Or you could Peter Davis the creator of incidents without consequences.
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January 30, 2011 7:38pm
Ross Nixon

It’s utterly futile because you can’t reason with someone who has no interest in reason, or present facts to someone who thinks facts are irrelevent, and who believes that the gold standard of intellectual certainty is that something must be true if they emotionally want it to be true

I rarely debate evolutionists who think like that.
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January 30, 2011 7:43pm
Put it away

Our whole universe was in a hot dense state,
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started. Wait…
The Earth began to cool,
The autotrophs began to drool,
Neanderthals developed tools,
We built a wall (we built the pyramids),
Math, science, history, unravelling the mysteries,
That all started with the big bang!

“Since the dawn of man” is really not that long,
As every galaxy was formed in less time than it takes to sing this song.
A fraction of a second and the elements were made.
The bipeds stood up straight,
The dinosaurs all met their fate,
They tried to leap but they were late
And they all died (they froze their asses off)
The oceans and pangea
See ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya
Set in motion by the same big bang!

It all started with the big BANG!

It’s expanding ever outward but one day
It will cause the stars to go the other way,
Collapsing ever inward, we won’t be here, it wont be hurt
Our best and brightest figure that it’ll make an even bigger bang!

Australopithecus would really have been sick of us
Debating out of here they’re catching deer (we’re catching viruses)
Religion or astronomy, Encarta, Deuteronomy
It all started with the big bang!

Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology
It all started with the big bang!
It all started with the big BANG!
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January 30, 2011 7:45pm
Put it away

“I rarely debate evolutionists who think like that.”

I think you mean you rarely meet evolutionists who think like that.
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January 30, 2011 7:46pm
Shunda barunda

There is not much point in debating this because there is so much that we don’t know and each ‘side’ can appeal to these gaps in our understanding.

But there are aspects that can be debated as there are irrational morons on both sides of the argument that like Pete said, can be exposed for the sake of bystanders seeking answers.

I no longer go to church because of the morons that happily submit their minds to the dude up the front without the slightest desire to generate an original thought themselves.
But in my journey out of organised religion I have never found Jesus to be at fault in any of this, rather the people that claim to follow him and the crazy ideas they preach in his name.
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January 30, 2011 8:12pm
malcolm

Ross, other than the Bible, what is your most damning evidence against evolution?
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January 30, 2011 8:30pm
iMP

As a thinking, well-read, well-educated modern person who has raised 3 kids, travelled extensively, published, been married twice and worked in a variety of very diverse industries, I agree with CS Lewis, Mother Theresa, JRR Tolkien, Bob Dylan, Dave Dobbyn and several other billion people over two millennia, that God is real and Jesus Christ was something well beyond human.

This is a timeless reality for millions of human beings. “Science” (so-called) was created (that word again) about 300 years ago (Aristotle aside); faith is twenty times that old. Faith/Science are not incompatible or at enmity with each other. It’s just that humanity instinctively realised faith much earlier, and the intellectual pursuit of science was coupled together – staggeringly – millennia later.

Wouldn’t the wise wo/man embrace both?
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January 30, 2011 8:34pm
Zapper

“And now I’d like to imagine why D4J seems to back Christianity but usually acts the opposite of Christian.”

Yes, I did raise my eyebrows when he referred to someone else as hate filled in this thread.

Having read some of his posts I can understand why he may be angry with the disgusting Family Law system in NZ, but he doesn’t come across as righteous too often.
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January 30, 2011 8:42pm
Zapper

“Wouldn’t the wise wo/man embrace both?”

Depends on the evidence I guess. Nothing wrong with faith, everyone needs something.
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January 30, 2011 8:44pm
dad4justice

Zapper, often a righteous soldier breaks the rules set down by a faithless society who detest moral judgement. Nice to see you understand the evil entrenched in the Family Court.
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January 30, 2011 8:47pm
Ross Nixon

Ross, other than the Bible, what is your most damning evidence against evolution?

The lack of a plausible mechanism to add information to the genome. That is, information for increased functionality / novel useful features. If you are of a scientific bent, you may like to follow this analysis of recent ‘scientific’ anouncements, covering various related fields. (I follow it via Google Reader).
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January 30, 2011 8:48pm
Pete George

Science” (so-called) was created (that word again) about 300 years ago (Aristotle aside)

Why put Aristotle aside? You’re referring to modern science starting in modern times. Prior to that it was called natural philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science
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January 30, 2011 8:56pm
Zapper

Fair enough D4J, but I don’t need faith in anything to have morals. There is evil everywhere, Christians and non-Christians alike. I don’t think morals are enhanced by religion, nor are they eroded by a lack of it.
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January 30, 2011 9:01pm
Put it away

IMP “This is a timeless reality for millions of human beings. “Science” (so-called) was created (that word again) about 300 years ago (Aristotle aside); faith is twenty times that old. ”

Your point being? The length of time an erroneus primitive belief has been held before something better is discovered is no endorsement of the primitive beliefa. No matter how long religious people believed that mental illness is caused by demon possession and best cured by exorcism, it simply isn’t. The fact that it has been treated by science based medicine for a shorter length of time than it’s been treated by scaring away the bad spirits has no bearing on their relative values. One is true, one isn’t. Religion was a placeholder that people used in place of real answers. Now it’s clear that science is finding real answers, religion is obsolete and can do nothing but get in the way.
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January 30, 2011 9:14pm
dad4justice

pete gore – what part of human evolution did we develop a conscience? Please link me to a CON science report on the matter.Then we will start on faith and morals Zapper.
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January 30, 2011 9:15pm
nasska

Well, Goodnight all.

Feel free to work out Abortion, Racism & peace in the Middle East when you’re done with Creationism vs Science.
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January 30, 2011 9:21pm
dad4justice

“Creationism vs Science.”

But only one can explain why all of us have a conscience. So easy just accept the fact and get on with your Godless lives.
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January 30, 2011 9:24pm
Zapper

Appreciate that D4J. When will we start on all the different versions or religion, all the Gods, and who is right?

A lot of people apparently don’t have a conscience. A fair proportion of priests for example.
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January 30, 2011 9:25pm
dad4justice

“A fair proportion of priests for example.”

Hell has plenty of room for vile sickos Zapper.
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January 30, 2011 9:26pm
MT_Tinman

iMP (61) Says:
January 30th, 2011 at 8:34 pm
As a thinking, well-read, well-educated modern person who has raised 3 kids, travelled extensively, published, been married twice and worked in a variety of very diverse industries

As a non-thinking, illiterate, poorly educated, out-of-touch old fart who has fathered (yes, I’m sure) two children and supervised their growth, also married twice (like you, not for me learning from my mistakes) and also having worked in very diverse industries (read no bloody good at anything – always getting fired – also like yourself) I agree with your premis that God must exist.

In fact I go further and find the need for several (mine gave you the names of several days of your week).

None of mine were quite as murderous and downright nasty as yours but hey, they tried and, unlike yours, gave us the only religious rite worth partaking of – chocolate eggs at Easter.
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January 30, 2011 9:30pm
Zapper

According to the bible, rape and pillage is okay D4J. Where do those people go?
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January 30, 2011 9:32pm
LabourDoesntWork

Nope, he’d be an observant Jew. …

He was! Not only that but he also fulfilled the Law. That’s why many Jews follow Him. That might be news to some…(!) And they apparently do so without compromising their Jewishness.

To ignore such a thing is to ignore all logic. …

That may seem compelling but such “logic” is merely a tautology. IOW, “Survival of the fittest” (or, “the fittest survive”) settles nothing because it’s true no matter what.

Faith/Science are not incompatible or at enmity with each other. …

It’s people like Richard Dawkins who put them squarely at odds with one another (so, irritatingly, do scientifically ignorant theists). The advocates of scientism claim that science is the only path to knowledge. This is a statement of faith which puts scientism at odds with other faiths, which is the battle Dawkins, et al, have chosen.

I have respect for Richard Feynman who didn’t seem to have a metaphysical agenda and advocated science as something you just “do” and observe what it throws up, rather than imposing on it what it can tell you. (I recommend an excellent BBC interview with him on Youtube.) Dawkins/Sagan/et al take science beyond its means and turn it into a kind of faith, then expend much energy attacking *other* faiths.

Unfortunately for the advocates of scientism, their faith is unscientific and thus self-contradictory. Biblical faith is NOT so – assuming God reveals himself to his people.
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January 30, 2011 9:35pm
Zapper

Which he has never done
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January 30, 2011 9:36pm
dad4justice

Now you’re being silly Zapper. Jesus didn’t preach “rape and pillage” now did he. The Old Testament is just that. The light is found in the New Testament, but you knew that, as your conscience tells you I am right.
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January 30, 2011 9:37pm
LabourDoesntWork

>>Unfortunately for the advocates of scientism, their faith is unscientific and thus self-contradictory.
By “unscientific” I mean their belief is ungrounded in science since they don’t have the absolute scientific knowledge to justify their claim. It is truly a statement of “faith”: in the power of science to derive all “truth” accessible to humans.
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January 30, 2011 9:42pm
iMP

Try some of this …re my point that many important scientific truths were revealed in the Bible thousands of years before they were discovered by ‘modern scientists.’

Just a few Scientific Truths Revealed in the Bible…. [is 9 enough? I can add more].

1. Earth is a sphere suspended in space. Isaiah 40:22, Job 26:7
2. The water cycle keeps the land watered. Job 36:27, 28, Ecclesiastes 1:7, Amos 5.8
3. The universe is running down. Isaiah 51:6, Psalm 102:26
4. Ocean Currents flow thru the sea. Psalm 8:8
5. Blood sustains life. Leviticus 17:11
6. The stars are incredibly distant from the earth and cannot be numbered. Job 22:12, Genesis 15:5, Jeremiah 33:22
7. The winds form a circulating system. Ecclesiastes 1:6
8. Earth rotates on its axis. Job 38:12, 14
9. Man’s body is composed of the same materials as the earth. Genesis 2:7, 3:19, Psalm 103:14*
(Since God made man from the dust it makes perfect sense.)
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January 30, 2011 9:55pm
iMP

My point about the relative age of faith-acceptance vs science-acceptance, is that “modern science as all truth” is only a recent social invention. Therefore, 95% of humanity has to be rendered ridiculous and a pantomime of ignorance before “sophisticated modern scientific minds” arrived to redeem everyone. Frankly, the “Age of Enlightenment” has been a total disaster, we just use it to invent more and more destructive and cruel ways of destroying others.
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January 30, 2011 10:00pm
Zapper

If you can pick and choose and create your own version of Christianity, that is your right D4J. What about the fact that the story told in the new testament is just a rip off of many other versions?
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January 30, 2011 10:15pm
dad4justice

Whatever Zapper, trying to convince you is impossible.
Goodnight.
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January 30, 2011 10:31pm
malcolm

The lack of a plausible mechanism to add information to the genome.

Random mutations, reinforced by national selection.
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January 30, 2011 10:43pm
Luc Hansen

I wish God would come my way.

I’ve got things to say to that SOB!
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January 30, 2011 10:45pm
Luc Hansen

iMP

That the planet is a sphere was recognised very early in, before the Bible was even a twinkle in a writers eye, even. So the creatives who wrote their version of history were, in fact, cognisant of philosophical (including science) findings, such as they were then.

For example, the diameter of the planet was first measured by a Greek mathematician, Eratosthenes, born 276BC. This, and early creation myths, implies that it was long recognised that the planet was a sphere.

Your God delusion seems somewhat deluded…
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January 30, 2011 11:03pm
Shunda barunda

So Luc we have evidence that the religion acknowledged the truth and you say this is a delusion?

Like I sad before, it is only the bible that can be reconciled with science, and many scientists are in fact bible believing Christians.
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January 30, 2011 11:22pm
Luc Hansen

Chicken and egg, Shunda.

And yes, many scientists are Christians, but I suggest many more are atheists.
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January 31, 2011 12:54am
BlairM

My my, so many comments regarding a simple painting with Adam and Eve sporting belly buttons!

Fortunately Christian faith does not necessitate that the theory of evolution be entirely false, or that a literal, created-in-seven-days 6000 year old Earth be entirely true.
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January 31, 2011 2:06am
MyNameIsJack

Blair, I think you mean t to write – Fortunately Christian faith does not require anything in the bible be true.
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January 31, 2011 6:44am
MT_Tinman

More like “The Bible is based on outright lies”.
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January 31, 2011 7:06am
RRM

All hail the invisible, inaudible, imaginary creator spirits!

Every grass skirt wearing stone age tribe believes in some sort of invisible creator spirit. But the xtian one REALLY REALLY IS REAL, hmmkay? It just is. I’m being serial. Everyone knows it is, and how could that many people be wrong?
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January 31, 2011 7:20am
MrTips

DPF: I know you like to have fun but the fact that you haven’t seen your belly button in 20 years and your nipples touch the floor won’t be fixed by posting smart arse takes on art that no one really takes seriously. 🙂

And for goodness sake, the rest of you get a life.
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January 31, 2011 7:22am
Put it away

I’ve never understood “moderate” xtians who only take some of the bible seriously. They acknowledge that the more bits of the bible people believe, the more they become embarassing dishonest hate-filled loons like creationist fundies. So if you realise that your holy book has a clear corelation between the amount believed and the amount of lunacy lies and hate, why believe any of it? Imagine a line on a graph that begins with a rational, well adjusted person who believes none of the bible and ends with the Rev Fred Phelps. Why would you put youself in the middle of that line when you could be at the start?
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January 31, 2011 7:36am
dad4justice

” a rational, well adjusted person who believes none of the bible ”

Someone like MyNameIsPaulP from New Brighton who spends everyday of his miserable life pouring pus on Christianity. Oh Lord, forgive those fools who should know better.
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January 31, 2011 7:46am
Put it away

Someone who follows the socialist religion is just as bad as someone who follows xtianity. Both believing things that aren’t true because they really really really want them to be true and it makes them feel like they know something you don’t. Same psychology, just different jargon. A pox on both their houses!
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January 31, 2011 8:04am
iMP

Luc, the first 5 books of the OT were written 1200 years BEFORE Eratosthenes. Your history is totally out.

None of the few ancient manuscripts from the period of the OT in anyway compare with the orderly, coherent, rational and unified mastery of the OT Hebrew scriptures. It’s like Kiwiblog and PhilU vs Shakespeare and any serious scholar of old lit. knows that as an accepted baseline. Just read Genesis and then the Gilgamesh Epic. There is no comparison.
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January 31, 2011 8:10am
Put it away

Nonsense imp, the bible is patched together out of different sources with sometimes irreconcilable conflicts. Why do you think there are two contradictory accounts of creation in Genesis chapter 1 and 2. ? The “priestly” and “yahwist” verisions both had their followers and they couldn’t choose one without offending the followers of the other tradition, so they just put both in there. Not a good start was it?
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January 31, 2011 8:23am
SouthernRight

yawn……….
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January 31, 2011 9:08am
Zapper

“Whatever Zapper, trying to convince you is impossible.
Goodnight.”

Not impossible D4J, I’ll always consider new evidence. But I suspect this is going to be one of those agree to disagree situations 🙂
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January 31, 2011 9:10am
Shunda barunda

I have to admit, as long as many Christian people continue with the ‘us and them’ attitude, some of these guys have a point.

While personally I believe these types of Christians are pretty toothless regarding any ‘harm’ they can inflict on society, I also accept that as long as they preach their nonsense Christianity will always struggle for any relevance to our communities.

Personally I think Jesus has a brilliant and insightful take on human nature, a shame that most Christians don’t know much about him.
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January 31, 2011 10:18am
ben

> The real humour is that in this day and age people still believe in something as ridiculous as creationism.

It is only slightly less absurd than believing in Global Warming – yet millions do.

What, two wrongs make a right?

Except that the evidence the world has in fact warmed is overwhelming. Witness all those retreating glaciers, and rising sea levels in the last 10,000 years. Whether man is responsible for GW is much more debatable (the case is looking increasingly shaky), and there is no evidence of impending catastrophy.

In contrast there is no evidence at all for young earth creation. Or creation, period. If god is behind all this, he has gone to great lengths to make it look like he wasn’t. So the creationists are now a sad spectacle of simply denying elementary, established results in evolution, physics, astronomy, and so on, of fabricating evidence and blowing out of all proportion unusual bits of evidence in nature, and of simply lying to defend their god. There is no other way, because none of the evidence points to their theory and all of it points away.

I can’t speak for anybody else, but for me, an important reason why I cannot bring myself to even consider religion is because faith now requires me to overlook reason and mountains of evidence, which makes me ask: surely no god who loves me and knows everything would require this?

And then, of course, I stop and and note that I am badly over-thinking this. The concept of god is an obviously human invention, and a masterstroke for those whose god succeeds (the great, great majority of god inventions have failed. Who still worships Zeus?) for obtaining power, control and wealth. In fac the whole concept is so transparent I can;’t believe 95% of the world has fallen for it. The power of indoctrination when young.
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January 31, 2011 12:31pm
Clint Heine

Oh FFS. What rubbish. I’m sick to death of these god botherers preaching their form of pseudo science. What’s to say the bible is any more right than the writings of L Ron Hubbard?

Farrar deliberately posted this to rile you lot up and boy it worked a treat.
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January 31, 2011 1:34pm
BlairM

Blair, I think you mean t to write – Fortunately Christian faith does not require anything in the bible be true.

No, I didn’t. Why would you think I meant to write that? The Bible is forty Jewish guys (and one Greek physician) writing about their experience of God. Did they make some of it up? Well a lot of it is improbable, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. That’s why it’s called faith. Now sure, if it’s not actually true, then a great number of people are wasting their time. But my point was that the creationism/evolution debate does not interfere with Genesis as an account of the Fall of mankind. If evolution is a true theory, then one would have to conclude that the seven days of creation in Genesis are metaphorical for a process that happened over millions of years, something which has no theological implications at all for the rest of the Bible, or for the central message of Christianity.
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January 31, 2011 3:26pm
ross

Robin Bain is God. It’s obvious.

Robin kills his family (minus the son of God, David), and – deliberately or otherwise – implicates his son. So while Robin left behind evidence implicating his son, the creator of the universe left behind evidence implicating evolutionism. It makes perfect sense. 🙂
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February 1, 2011 9:37am
David Cairns

This is just a test by god.

Just saw a documentary called “Jesus Camp” and it features the Creation Museum and shows how right wing christian fundamentals teach sex ed…
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May 25, 2011 1:59pm

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