Cameron on multiculturalism

February 7th, 2011 at 12:00 pm by David Farrar

The Daily Telegraph reports:

Entering the debate on national identity and religious tolerance, the Prime Minister declared an end to “passive tolerance” of divided communities, and say that members of all faiths must integrate into wider society and accept core values.

To be British is to believe in freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality, he will say. Proclaiming a doctrine of “muscular liberalism”, he said that everyone, from ministers to ordinary voters, should actively confront those who hold extremist views.

I like the concept of muscular liberalism – not accepting extremist views as valid. And by this, I don’t mean taking away the right for people to hold such views – but to make sure such views do not get funded by the state.

He warned that groups that fail to promote British values will no longer receive public money or be able to engage with the state.

In other words if you promote sharia law, don’t expect the taxpayer to fund you.

That means abandoning the notion that different communities should be able to live according to their own values and traditions as long as they stay within the law. “Under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, we have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives, apart from each other and the mainstream,” Mr Cameron said. “We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong.”

All Britons should believe in basic values of freedom and equality, and actively promote them, he said. That means ensuring that immigrants learn to speak English and that all schools teach “elements of a common culture and curriculum”.

I don’t think it is a black and white choice between multi-culturalism and integration. We would be a very boring country if we had no variety of cultures. But what Cameron is referring to is making sure there is some common culture and subscription to core values of democracry, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, non-subservience of women etc.

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88 Responses to “Cameron on multiculturalism”

  1. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “In other words if you promote sharia law, don’t expect the taxpayer to fund you.”

    Is that all..?? Bit pathetic ain’t it?

    What about England’s legal system, the foundation of its society?

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  2. gravedodger (1,426 comments) says:

    Now that is a refreshing statement from a western leader and lets hope he maintains his position when the backlash comes, as it surely will.

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  3. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    Agreed entirely with Cameron’s position. In a free society there must be internal boundaries that protect the value of freedom. This is not so much a moral imperative as a pragmatic one.
    As you say, this does not remove the freedom of association or expression, but the state must act to protect the rule of secular law. This is a discussion long overdue in the West in general.

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  4. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I figured DPF would leap delightedly into this little fray, and his racist followers immediately jump in boots and all!

    The conceit of Cameron’s statement is obvious, and the notion of a “common culture” is deeply exclusive (as opposed to inclusive). But it’s a bit early in the electoral cycle to play the race card, I would have thought, so is this a clue to a snap election?

    This is the way I would sum up Cameron’s flounderings:

    Custer’s White man’s last stand.

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  5. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    Words words words…when is “Cast Iron” Dave going to give us the referrendum on Europe?

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  6. Scorpio (385 comments) says:

    Completely agree with Cameron. Maybe John Key could say something similar…

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  7. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    Luc, are you confusing race with religion again?

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  8. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    i agree its not a choice between multiculturism and integration but why cant we call a spade a spade.
    Lets address the elephant sitting in the corner. Isn’t this really comming to a head due to one
    problem thats getting bigger and bigger. Islam and Muslim immigration.

    We can have multiculturism and integration here in New Zealand, but not with Islam.

    Without going into all the axiomatic reasons for the above statement now.

    Why would we in New Zealand want to continue importing muslims ?

    Can someone explain the advantage to NZ of muslim immigration.

    Surely the writing is on the wall, all over the world.

    Are we now so politically correct that we are blind ?

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  9. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen you ignorant fool.
    This is nothing to do with race, pathetic, ignoramus.

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  10. RightNow (6,348 comments) says:

    pwned Luc

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  11. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    This is the whole point of Western civilisation. It is multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, diff. languages and religions (the UK is after all a “united kingdom” : England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland) yet it has a shared value system. Law, democracy, constitutional monarchy in some places, Republic in others, yet shared generic values in common with the wider British Commonwealth and America. Rome achieved this in part, which is why so many countries (from ancient Celts to modern Africans) have embraced the obvious benefits of these powerful, wide reaching civilisational clubs.

    But leaders in the West (like in France) are now waking up to this, that we have to defend these values and often fight for them, against those who want to destroy them violently. The big stick concept.

    It is the end of the Pc Liberal experiment, that has worshiped “culture” and “diversity” without commonsense. Diversity and multi-cultiralism only works if diff. people’s buy in to a shared collective (like the Westminister System; or Rule of Law; or Democracy; or Capitalism). That’s why MILLIONS flood into America; but no-one emigrates to Yemen. Helloo?

    It is the same issue with Hone Harawira, who is unable to buy in to a shared collective (Caucus rules) and has to re-invent the whole world in his own image and in alignment with his own myopic views by tearing down what’s around him achieved by others.

    The future for the West, is to be more aggressive about its own culture and to face up to the destructive political forces of the 21st century. the Aussies seem to be getting this. NZ is way behind. Americans seem to understand this instinctively. the first half of the 21st will be a polarising one.

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  12. ben (2,386 comments) says:

    Here’s a prediction for how Cameron’s vision will be implemented in practice: race and religion based equalisation of the workplace and of where you live.

    You will not permitted to buy a place in suburbs that already have “too many” of your kind in them. Firms will not be able to hire another person of descent X if they already have too many of X.

    There will also be endless arguments over funding, and whether organisation X, or the people in it, promote Sharia or not, and so on. It would be far simpler for Cameron to have announced there won’t be funding for lobby groups, period.

    You heard it here first.

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  13. garethw (205 comments) says:

    “freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality”
    If it’s truly limited to this then great; those are pretty core touchstones of liberal democracies. But it looks like it’s already extending out to a cultural push – why exactly does “believing in freedom and equality” = “learn to speak English”?

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  14. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    The thing is ben, not all muslims want Sharia law implemented in the state. Many of them are quite happy living in secular states, even in the predominantly muslim world. It’s the more radical ideologies that require opposition.

    It seems strange that there are growing radical elements in European nations, but I suspect that along with ongoing Western involvement in the Middle East, and seemingly unshakeable support for Israel – the pervasive postmodern zeitgeist within academia and even government provides political nourishment for such groups.

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  15. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    bereal, you are either wrong, misinformed or deluded, over this as well as many other issues. Islamopobism and racism are but two sides of the same coin.

    Let me put it this way, if the Muslims who cause us whiteys so much angst were white Muslims from Eastern Europe, would we be so frightened? Would we demand an end to Muslim immigration then? I suggest we may want to limit immigration for other reasons, but this one specific victimisation of Muslims is because they are not white.

    And I can tell you, you may not think you are being racist, but Muslims know you are!

    iMP, as I have said elsewhere, why shouldn’t Hone be heard? Have you ever visited his website and examined his arguments in detail? And why should we disallow Hone the freedom of speech we demand for ourselves? It’s a big problem with our political parties that they instinctively suppress any dissent with the party line. It’s the main reason why I don’t belong to any party. And it looks like the Maori Party won’t get my vote this time around.

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  16. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    Because its England, and a core of England is “English” which is Cameron’s point. If you’re gonna have chilli dog, it needs a % of chilli.

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  17. Pete George (21,826 comments) says:

    Good point Gareth – does equality mean everyone must practices the same culture, or everyone has equal rights to practise the culture of their choosing?

    “learn to speak English” – which English?

    There are a number of Scots visiting at the moment, sometimes I have to listen very carefully to understand what they’re saying. How is that different to trying to understand, say, an Asian immigrant with a strong accent?

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  18. Psycho Milt (1,982 comments) says:

    On the one hand, yes! Like most countries, the UK has enough violent bigots and religious loonies of its own and doesn’t need to be importing fresh supplies.

    On the other hand, yo what? “To be British is to believe in freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality…” Er, no. To be British is to have British citizenship – no particular political views are a requirement. For example, whatever else you might say about Oswald and Diana Mosley, they were British – as were Burgess, Philby and McLean.

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  19. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    Luc. Since when has Hone Harawira never been heard? He uses a megaphone for goodness sake. It’s about being a team player to achieve bigger goals. The issue is, “Hone, work with us as a team or go and be a lone ranger elsewhere.” Naysayers are always parasitic. they exist by critiquing the bigger whole they were once part of but have little to offer in isolation.

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  20. garethw (205 comments) says:

    And I wonder how will the BNP continue to receive state funding as a Political Party, given they don’t really espouse freedom of religion or equal rights by race and sexuality…

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  21. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    To be British is to have British citizenship – no particular political views are a requirement

    To be British is to believe, at a bone level, in your basic superiority to any other funny-coloured, funny-lingo-spouting johnny from some other part of the world…and that wherever you go, it’s the other bloke that’s the foreigner.

    It’s what keeps me sane living here ;)

    Actually, it’s worse than that, I’m not British, I’m English and Northern English at that…that’s multicultural, right there.

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  22. infused (616 comments) says:

    I liked the new checks. They should be done here.

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  23. Paulus (2,298 comments) says:

    English Law has been slowly highjacked by EC and other International Liberalist Laws.

    English Law is no longer really applicable as it can be taken to a totally different overseas law anytime in appeal.

    Get Real.

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  24. slightlyrighty (2,448 comments) says:

    Luc.

    Why are you trying to make it a debate about race when it most clearly is not.

    Lets take a case in point. The immigration of Indians into NZ. This has been going on for years. Decades in fact. Of the 5 homes surrounding us when we were growing up, 2 were Indian, one was Dutch and one Austrian.

    What I have found with regard to Indian Immigration is that they are by and large, tolerant, moderate, and integrate well into NZ society while keeping their own culture. This is, in essence, the crux of Camerons arguement. Immigrants are welcome, so long as their status is legal, and that they are prepared to live by the set of shared values of the country they HAVE CHOSEN TO EMIGRATE TO.

    These immigrants are welcome to practice their culture and religion, again, so long as they also accept these shared values.

    While we would never expect a Muslim to partake of a pork boil-up and share a few bevies of an evening, and they should not do so, neither should a muslim immigrant expect to be able to change a culture of a country so as not to offend the sensibilities of his own community.

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  25. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Luc Hands-on ” But it’s a bit early in the electoral cycle to play the race card”

    But never too early to play the “racist” card for you is it Luc?. O.K. then, given that you believe this is a race issue, perhaps you could tell us which races you think don’t support “freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights…basic values of freedom and equality” ?

    “White man’s last stand.”

    How did you get so bitter and hate yourself so much that you side with murderous lunatics in the hope seeing your own people destroyed?

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  26. dime (8,778 comments) says:

    put it away – my guess, he was abused by white men growing up.

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  27. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    English Law is no longer really applicable as it can be taken to a totally different overseas law anytime in appeal.

    Not quite, ok this waay off on a tangent, but have you been following the “Freeman” thing?

    http://captainranty.blogspot.com/2011/02/cat-leaves-bag.html

    It’s worth clicking through to the British Constitution Group

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  28. jinpy (237 comments) says:

    This ignores that people are often hostile to immigrants in the first place and that immigrant suffer discrimination in getting work etc. This general feeling of resentment adds to the probabilities of people jumping on board with extremists.

    Just look at the story of blacks in England and institutional racism of police against Pakistani’s.

    Notting Hill race riots
    Institutional racism
    Employment Discrimination

    I’m all in favour of modern Western values, but its not as simple as talking about how great we all are. I’m more of the mind that this is myth-building.

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  29. GPT1 (2,043 comments) says:

    Awesome quotes. To my mind balanced and correct. Not the mindless yapping of Winston Peters types and well removed from handwringing PC types of Labour and the Greens. Our nation is defined by its vlues, you are welcome to join but don’t abuse those values of (particularly) free speech to wind back those core values.

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  30. jinpy (237 comments) says:

    Actually, this is interesting. A NZ study on exactly this topic.
    Equality in New Zealand

    Excerpt (slide 20):
    “A commonly held belief about migrants is that “they stick to themselves” and do little to try to fit in” (Gendall et al, 2007)

    “Many migrants report that they would like to become friends with NZers and have tried to no avail” (Chang et al, 2006)

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  31. jinpy (237 comments) says:

    Slide 26:

    “They used their middle finger and used the f-word… like Asian bitch, like that, those kind of things. Always are horrid, whenever I walk.” Korean migrant in Christchurch

    “One day I went shopping. Two young guys said nasty words to me in the shop I felt very uncomfortable.” Chinese Migrant in Auckland

    “I have witnessed an incident where youths in a car have thrown food and shouted insults at [Asian] friends standing on the footpath.”

    “Someone said “Asian” and made a motion as if to slit throat.”

    “Last year at fish and chip shop[ someone hit son, and said 'get out'. Son say 'why hit?' He say 'you look like [Asian]‘.”
    Asian migrants in Nelson/Tasman.

    Slide 35:
    “I would say that 75 percent of clients we deal with discriminate when they describe what they want in an employee. Because the client pays us to find that employee, we in turn have to discriminate every day. It is morally and ethically against our views but the bottom line is the company’s needs.”
    Recruitment Consultant

    And so on…

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  32. dime (8,778 comments) says:

    who cares if immirants stick amongst themselves?

    if i went to China, id be mainly hanging out with ex-pats.

    i just wouldnt be trying to influenc how the chinese live thier lives.

    also, if i broke the law, id expect to be trated harshly and sent home.

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  33. Nick R (443 comments) says:

    As a pom, this pisses me off.

    I understand where Cameron is coming from and I have no problem with withdrawing Government funding from toxic extremists, who are a real problem in the UK. But the idea that “merely” living within the law is somehow not good enough really bothers me. There is real and serious irony in promoting freedom of speech, assembly and religion as core values but then dictating how those rights must be exercised by people who are otherwise living within the law. This smacks as hypocrisy – the commitment to freedom is not equal and doesn’t extend to those who dare to disagree.

    We owe the State the duty to obey the law (or face the consequences). But that’s it. Signing up to some additional and uncodified body of rules about “Britishness” (or “New Zealandness” for that matter) is not part of the deal and never should be. Values and traditions that don’t break the law are none of the State’s business and never should be.

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  34. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    slightlyrighty @ 1.20pm has come as close to describing the Kiwi attitude to immigration as anyone I’ve read. Most NZers are fairly tolerant as evinced by the multitude of cultures resident. Indians, Dutch, Chinese, Polynesians, South Africans etc seem able to integrate into our society & still retain their customs, languages & religions. In some cases it’s not perfect but workable.

    Muslims, however don’t seem to get it. Wherever in the world they decide to call home there is trouble. The apologists blame the host countries ignoring the fact that other immigrants spend too much time taking the opportunities offered to better themselves to bother about stone age customs & religions.

    We are not that short of people that we have to accept anyone. The time is well overdue to ask prospective immigrants to respect the wishes of the host population. If the formers answer or actions are negative then tell them to get back on the plane & we’ll muddle on without them.

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  35. Pete George (21,826 comments) says:

    nasska: Wherever in the world they decide to call home there is trouble.

    Have you anything to show they are more trouble in New Zealand than any other group?

    Probably the biggest problem ethnic group is the one that’s been here the longest.

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  36. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Pete George @ 2.18pm

    For the small number of them the Somalian refugees in Lower Hutt would probably take the biscuit for causing trouble & to stand out in that melting pot would take some doing. I haven’t been to Auckland for years so any comments I made about how Muslims behave there would be secondhand.

    I’d be challenged to rebut the gist of your closing sentence.

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  37. Pete George (21,826 comments) says:

    For the small number of them the Somalian refugees

    Based on statistics or perception?
    Because they are Muslim?
    Because they don’t want to integrate?
    Because they have trouble adapting to such a different country and lifestyle?
    Because they have trouble integrating due to prejudice against them?
    Because no one will give them jobs?

    Integration works both ways, immigrants have to want to and they need to be allowed.

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  38. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    PG…muslims are not an ethnic group? Why so imprecise?

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  39. KH (686 comments) says:

    Cultural diversity is a great thing. And makes living in NZ better. And another great thing is the Eupropean based idea of equality, rights and the protection by law of the rights of individuals – sometimes against the might of a nasty majority or the state.
    Maori and Europeans signed the Treaty of Waitangi to uphold that great ideal of equaility.
    We need to adopt the ‘Cameron’ approach that the state does not support those who would reneg on that deal, and should stop funding seperatists, such as the Harawira’s who can only see the end of their own noses, in respect of the rights of others. Mean fascists that lot. And government funds keeps them going.

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  40. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    (Kindly addressed to me)

    How did you get so bitter and hate yourself so much that you side with murderous lunatics in the hope seeing your own people destroyed?

    Stereotyping an ethnicity (race) is a symptom of racism. You need to look at yourself in the mirror.

    And for murderous lunatics it’s hard to go past every US president and some horrendously murderous British PMs, not to mention some nasty Eastern European characters, but that doesn’t make all of us whiteys murderous lunatics – although one could be forgiven for so thinking if one spent too long in the bowels of Kiwiblog!

    The meaning of my White Man’s Last Stand comment is clearly aimed at the nonsense of a common culture and that we are bound to lose this one as surely as Custer bit the dust.

    Have we forgotten already Howard’s doomed attempt to make all immigrants sit an “Aussieness” test before admission to the Lucky Country?

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  41. reversespin (65 comments) says:

    DPF – Is this post timed to coincide with Waitangi Day?

    Regardless, I think one thing we can do that would be beautifully symbolic and simple, is to rename Waitangi Day to “New Zealand Day”. For the price of a name change ($0), it would do a lot with regard to harmony, integration, multiculturalism and unity. That is pretty good value……………..

    People have been talking about it on ZB and Radio Live today. Seems to have some legs amongst that lot. I just noticed it on the Herald and TV3 website as well.

    Anyone got a compelling argument why we SHOULDN’T?

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  42. Pete George (21,826 comments) says:

    Changing the name will change nothing else. The date links it to a contentious history no matter what you call it. Changing the name to “Regurgitating Grievances Day”, or “Chundering Up The Past” are better descriptions.

    Is this post timed to coincide with Waitangi Day?

    My guess is it is timed to coincide with Cameron’s statement.

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  43. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Peter George @ 2.38pm

    Perception obviously. In our PC land I doubt statistics narrowing down trouble making to small groups exist. The rest of your queries require subjective replies & since I’m not a Muslim immigrant I would have difficulty responding.

    I will accept that any immigrant is going to find the going tough initially but it is my opinion that if they need featherbedding to adapt to the life of the host country then probably they & us are better off if they stay where they are. It’s worthy of note that Indians & Chinese (for example) are conspicuously absent from youth street gangs. Could it be that they are not adherents of a religion that hasn’t changed for thirteen centuries…….one that says that all non believers are infidels who should be exterminated & that women are pieces of shit worthy only of servitude & mutilation?

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  44. kowtow (6,717 comments) says:

    Camerons’ speech leaves me totally under whelmed. Read the whole thing. He says nothing new or relevant. He recognises Europe has a huge problem but won’t say so.

    Also he talks of “equality” ,what’s that? Political equality is the real issue ,not this nebulous all embracing EU equality.

    The much maligned appeaser Chamberlain went to a Munich conference and so sadly has Cameron.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/02/terrorism-islam-ideology

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  45. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen @ 2.46
    So every US president is a murderous lunatic. What a true gormless moron you are mate.

    That is about the level of comment we would expect from a sick deviant such as yourself.
    You are the sicko self declared nudist who believes that naked bodies are ‘eye candy’, right ?
    The nudist who goes along to his nudist club to see the ‘eye candy’ and doesn’t understand that he is
    a depraved ,sicko, twisted, deviant.
    Your comments are about as sane as your twisted sexuality.
    You have absolutely no idea what, ‘normal’ people think or believe.
    You are one sick puppy mate.

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  46. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Pete George. you seem to have an opinion on most things, have a go at this.
    Given that muslims are unique among all immigrants in that they are the only ones who have a
    basic fundermental hatred of us, the infidels. Are committed to change our society to their model. Islamic theocracy.
    Have no intention of joining our society. Have proved this beyond argument in any non muslim society
    anywhere on earth, at any time in history. Why would we want to import them into New Zealand.
    FYI i am not a racist, just a realist.
    I have no problem with immigrants from anywhere in the world who want to join and help build
    our country as long as they are not muslims.

    Now, you explain to me why we need muslims in New Zealand.

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  47. Pete George (21,826 comments) says:

    Given that muslims are unique among all immigrants in that they are the only ones who have a
    basic fundermental hatred of us, the infidels. Are committed to change our society to their model. Islamic theocracy.

    For a start that’s not a given. If they hated us they wouldn’t come here.

    Have no intention of joining our society.

    If they liked their society they would stay there and not come here and join ours.

    We don’t need Muslims in New Zealand. We end up getting some because they fit within our immigration criteria that tends not to discriminate on religious belief. And quite a few come here as a part of our education industry, they can be good for business.

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  48. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Poor bereal

    When not invoking personal abuse, what does pass as an attempt at reasoning is to present some imaginary hypothesis, duly described in apocalyptic terms, clearly nonsensical, but always possessing a common thread of prejudice, however you want to dress it up.

    Islamophobism, racism, cultural superiority syndrome – you have the lot, in spades!

    PS really, if the best you can do is throw up ad nauseum what was intended as a humorous aside, well, you should just crawl back into your single sex, mono-cultural, neanderthal cave and roll the rock over the opening.

    PPS In my experience, nudist clubs are the very opposite of your depiction. If it’s depravity and wanton behaviour that you really want, I can point you to far more exciting places!

    (Sits back, opens an after work beer, and waits for the fun to start!)

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  49. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Peter George @ 3.59pm

    The muslims drawn to immigrate to western countries are largely from Pakistan & In our case Somalia. Both of these so called nations are shit holes politically & economically. I doubt that hating us or not hating us is the deciding factor when they board the plane……they get to that later after they have accepted residency.

    We are all (even Maori) descended from immigrant stock so please don’t let’s hear that worn cry of ‘immigrant bashing’ used so often by liberal handwringers. It’s just that many of us can read & the stories of Muslims who have assimilated successfully into western civilisations are hard to come by. Secularism is a foreign concept to a Muslim whose every action is proscribed by the teachings of the Quran. They don’t want to change, they are not allowed to change, indeed nothing in their wretched religion has changed for 1300 years.

    To put it simply I & many others don’t want them in NZ. If that can be described as something with a phobia attached then so be it.

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  50. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I highly recommend to readers the podcasts available at the LSE, also available on itunes.

    A recent event was a symposium held by the recently formed Centre for Middle East Studies, with some heavy hitters presenting their thoughts. Patrick Steele delivers a thorough analysis of where the power centre will lie in the ME in the future and presents a devastating critique of US meddling in the region.

    But the highlight so far is the third speaker, Professor Avi Shlaim, a well known, very brave, Israeli historian, an Iraqi born Jew, who caught my attention with this opening line:

    “The United States is completely unfit to be an imperial power in the Middle East”.

    He goes on to justify that statement.

    Then he recounts a story of Tony Blair, the worst of a bad bunch involved in the ME, according to Shlaim, who had a completely blank look on his face when, in an interview conducted in one of Mubarak’s sumptuous palaces, he was challenged about MI6′s role in the 1953 coup against a democratically elected Iranian PM. After a while he pulled up the interviewer and asked,

    “When was this again?”

    “1953.”

    “And they’re still banging on about it?”

    And this ignoramus is a so-called peace envoy!

    Anyway, here’s the link. Hope it works OK.

    http://www.lse.ac.uk/resources/podcasts/rss/publicLecturesAndEvents.rss

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  51. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    (Sits back, opens an after work beer, and waits for the fun to start!)

    You really should be hoping no one finds out your real name – you’ve made yourself look like an arse so far! Everyone would laugh in your face if they knew who you were.

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  52. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    nasska, you ignorant fool, just take the example of the US. In terms of percentage of population, there are far fewer politically motivated violent acts perpetrated by Muslims than non-Muslims.

    I know many Muslim immigrants, and they are all very loyal to New Zealand – they appreciate the haven we have allowed them after the western powers ravaged their families and homelands.

    What you post is just gratuitous slander from behind a veil of anonymity. So brave.

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  53. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    I know many Muslim immigrants, and they are all very loyal to New Zealand – they appreciate the haven we have allowed them after the western powers ravaged their families and homelands.

    So Muslims never started any wars then have they?

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  54. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    He musn’t want to talk now…..

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  55. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Bevan @ 5.12pm

    Who cares?

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  56. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen you sick puppy.

    You are a nudist. right ?
    You said that you consider naked bodies, ‘eye candy’ right?
    You recounted the, in your sicko mind, titillating tale of the dog that couldnt resist biting
    the nude fat black mans ‘jiggiling buttock’ right ?
    Do your fellow nudists at the nudist club know that your there to perve on them ?
    You have to be a deviant bent sicko. right ?
    To say you have made yourself look like an arse so far has to be a gross understatement.

    And thats not even mentioning your weird opinion that every US president has been a murdering lunatic.
    Talk about laugh in your face, you may be the sickest joke going.

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  57. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Luc says:

    (Sits back, opens an after work beer, and waits for the fun to start!)

    Here’s a great Beer. Certified Vegan too, just for PhilU!
    http://www.tempo.co.il/htmls/page_620.aspx?c0=13346&bsp=749

    Here’s another one I like:
    http://www.taybehbeer.com/

    Here’s the Hamas version:
    [Warning: Contains extreme violence]
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3383195979997564234#

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  58. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Pete George @ 3.59
    ‘for a start thats not a given.’
    Wake up, of course its a given, dont be so soft. Have a look at the Koran. Educate yourself.
    So, thanks for replying to my question, but do i take it your answer boils down to, ‘they can be good
    for buisness in the education industry.’ Jeez mate. Breathtaking.
    Also, my whole point is that we can and we should discriminate in our immigration policy
    with regard to muslims.
    Many countries now wish they had. It might not be too late for New Zealand.

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  59. Bob R (1,253 comments) says:

    ***The conceit of Cameron’s statement is obvious, and the notion of a “common culture” is deeply exclusive***

    Luc,

    I thought you’d be happy to exclude honour killings, genital mutilation, cousin marriage etc?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-fails-to-halt-female-genital-mutilation-1845731.html

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  60. dime (8,778 comments) says:

    bereal – if you think perving on people at a nudist beach…. come spend a weekend haning out with Dime lol

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  61. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Also Pete,
    Read the posts nasska has put up on this matter, he/she is on to it.
    This is a serious subject. Not one that needs to be warped with political correctness.
    We have to bereal about this.

    Hope i havent embarrased anybody by association. nasska. i mean my opinion of that deviant sicko
    Luc Hansen is purely my own. But i stand by every word i wrote re that sick joke.

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  62. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    bereal @ 5.49pm

    1) Blue booties! (but many years ago).

    2) Summing up the sicko saves someone else the trouble. Thanks; we look upon it as a public service.

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  63. Pete George (21,826 comments) says:

    becrywolf, the real reality is on the evidence so far we don’t seem to have a Muslim problem in New Zealand, no more than any other nationality or ethnic or religious group.

    Are you too young to have lived through the ‘beware the communists” era? You will be too young to have lived through the “beware the Irish” era? And the previous “beware the Chinese” era?

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  64. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Pete George @ 6.09pm

    ……….”so far we don’t seem to have a Muslim problem in New Zealand”…….. Is it your opinion that we should wait until we do have one? Like Britain, like Holland, like Germany, like France?

    The Chinese, Irish & Communist fears you raise were real at the time but they had one thing in common. None had at their base a religion which called for the destruction of the host. Spend a little time googling the teachings of Mohammad & come back & tell me where I’ve got it wrong.

    Any argument that the Quran was based in the eighth century & interpretations of his teachings have changed is doomed……in Islam nothing changes……ever.

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  65. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Luc, democracy, free speech, human rights ARE superior to depsotism, theocracy and sharia and oppression. This is just not debatable and it is so obvious to anyone with a brain that your insane, wrongheaded insistence that the culture that invented the former is no better than a culture that offers only the latter, is just an absurd case of putting your fingers in your ears and going “lalalalala I can’t hear you!!!!”. You are pathetic. You know you are wrong on this, but your bizarre hatred for your own people prompts you to twist your logic into the opposite of reality. Your blind support for the religion that epitomises everything you claim to despise (when anyone else is doing it) is ludicrous.

    “Stereotyping an ethnicity (race) is a symptom of racism.” – what race, Hands-on? I’ll ask it again since you dodged the question. If promoting “freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights…basic values of freedom and equality” is disadvantaging any particular races, let us know which races you think are intrinsically genetically hostile to such concepts and why? If it’s not racial, it’s cultural. Culture is what you choose by moving to a different country. If you don’t like that country’s culture, don’t move there. Not complicated, really.

    “When not invoking personal abuse, what does pass as an attempt at reasoning is to present some imaginary hypothesis, duly described in apocalyptic terms, ”

    Hah! This coming from the king of enviro-apocalypse. Every time you spout off about any green theme it involves some kind of armageddon.

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  66. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    bereal

    The guy was white. White as. Te Atatu Rugby Club prop. It was very funny. He certainly thought so.

    You are the sicko here, just like all the other sicko Islamophobes, racists, white is right fellow bloggers, cowards one and all who hide behind their pseudonyms.

    Can you name one US president who didn’t kill non-whites? The whole lot of them just got swept up into the military-industrial complex. Of all of them, Obama is the most obscene. With his background, he should know better but, hey, I suppose he knows he would be dead if he bucked the system.

    Tim

    As sick as any on here, joyfully wallowing in Israel’s crimes, besides which Hamas looks almost angelic.

    Do you know, Tim, that in Gaza the cops don’t carry guns? What do they carry in Israel?

    BobR

    But it’s OK to blow villagers to bits from 30,000 feet, right?

    When Muslims come here they abide by our laws or face the consequences. That’s just a fact. We don’t stand for certain practices, neither should we. And we don’t.

    And we should wage endless war on an innocent population just because they are Muslim and, especially, just because they are non-whites. And we should buy the oil, not kill for it.

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  67. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    “But it’s OK to blow villagers to bits from 30,000 feet, right?”

    Qassams don’t get that high Luc. I assume that’s what you’re talking about when you worry about villagers getting blown to bits?

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  68. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    “Here’s the Hamas version:”

    Religion of Peace…

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  69. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    oops

    missed out the “not” before the “should”.

    Put it away – you really should. The world would be a better place.

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  70. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Pete George.@ 6.09
    i really must commend to you the response from nasska @ 6.33
    I couldn’t express the fundamental point you either don’t get, or refuse to get any clearer.
    Read it again, and then, whip it, whip it good, whip it, into shape, go forward, try to accept it.
    Here it is again. Thank you nasska.

    ‘None had at their base a religion that called for the descruction of the host.’
    “in islam, nothing changing ,ever.”
    Starting to see the difference Pete?
    Have you got any counter argument to that truth ?

    and on a different note.
    Luc Hansen. you sicko, deviant, nudist retard.
    Fuck off.

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  71. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    The Gaza police don’t carry guns??

    Sure – except for these guys: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=171013

    Maybe you’ll like this better, it’s Palestinian. The “Police operation” (i.e. Hamas purges of Fatah) in Gaza which killed eleven. But not with guns, right?

    http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9734.shtml

    Hamas are Angels? Remember PaliLeaks? Fatah were berating Israel that they weren’t doing enough to control the terrorists you think are “angelic”, over always unspoken “crimes”.

    You’ve reminded me of the song “We con the world” – “make us think the Hamas are Mumma Theresa”…

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  72. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Also Pete,
    Remember Neville Chamberlain ?
    He could have read Mein Kamph.
    By the same token,
    You could read the koran. You can get several versions at Whitcoulls.
    Even the abridged version will help bring you up to speed.

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  73. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Here’s a funny link … Luc started has usual rant on a Left Wing, pro-peace website … and got kicked off for being a racist!!!

    http://www.mepeace.org/forum/topics/at-last-palestinians-have?xg_source=activity&id=661876%3ATopic%3A380183&page=6#comments

    “Luc, Please continue this discussion in Truth and justice. It is closed here as you started attacking Jewish beliefs and Israelis.”

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  74. Interested Party (61 comments) says:

    Luc you are one twisted brainless individual. Whats your hang up with Americans, much of what they did over the last 60 years was all about real politic. Did you expect them to sit back when there was the real fear of communism taking over the world. Sometime your enemies enemy is your friend I repeat real politic. Can you imagine if the world power had been japan Germany or evan France – I think they would have behaved much worse.

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  75. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    TimG – yup, even the hippies can spot Luc’s racism. Too funny!

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  76. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Some way back , PG was asking re Somalian crime..The easy way to see how people will fit in here is to look at how they have settled in Aussie…Aussie has a big problem with African crime…..Just because it is not reported here does not mean it is not happening..VIOLENCE , THEFT , RAPE..GANGS..The Kings of Africa… CAR JACKING..FIGHTING WITH ABORIGINALS , HUGE BRAWLS IN MELBOURNE MALLS.etc A SOMALIAN woman gave NZ its first AIRCRAFT HIGHJACKING..since her incarceration , she has thrown a pot of boiling water over a prison guard…charming…we REALLY , REALLY NEED THESE PEOPLE.
    Muslims in Australia have been involved in a lot of gang rapes as they have been in many other countries..When convicting these animals in Aussie , the judges often say they think there are more victims but that the young women are too terrified to come forward. Google Bilal Skaff if you are not up with this issue. The lLebanese are an interesting group in Aussie..the Christian Lebanese have settled well.the muslim Lebanese are the ones causing trouble ..This shows clearly that it is so called religion which is the problem in integration.
    Cameron meant muslims tho couldn’t say this outright. Merkel has already twice said what he said publicly. Both countries have huge problems with threats of violence from muslims within their borders.
    This past weekend Tommy Robinson of the EDL English Defence League lead the biggest anti muslim rally ever held in Britain. This was held in Luton. When the EDl first started it was not given much in the way of prospects and of course all the racist ie anti whites came out screamimg. Now it has spread all over Britain and into Europe.

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  77. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Tim, I got kicked off? They keep emailing me asking me to join their discussions.

    By the way, notice I don’t hide behind an alias. What are you afraid of, Tim?

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  78. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Interested Party

    What you need to understand is that I am in the mainstream on this. 94% of the population of the world (that’s 100% excluding the US and the bullied and the bribed) have exactly my view.

    My view is this: Israel must allow Palestinians the right of self determination and, at the very least, permit a Palestinian state on the June 1967 armistice line. This is the consensus. Even the US officially signs up to this consensus, but the Israel lobby hamstrings any president who tries to bring this about.

    Maybe Obama, if reelected, will just say fuck you Israel and stop vetoing UN SC resolutions. That will make Israel dance to a different tune, eventually.

    Ah well, hope springs eternal.

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  79. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    Hi Luc, I don’t hide behind alias’ either.

    I just got a bit sick of death threats at my home from your racist mates, so I truncate my surname on public forums. Why do the nutters tend to do that?

    Quite a few readers here know who I am….

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  80. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Obama reelected??

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  81. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Luc, you’re a loon. You get excited at the thought of replacing the middle east’s only functional democracy with yet another insane despotic theocracy failed state, for purely racist motives. Jews exist, and they’re on the land that historically belongs to them. Learn to deal with these two facts and stop drooling over the massacres you’re hoping for.

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  82. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Luc,

    The Palesinians do not want a dual state solution. They and their Arab supporters rejected that in 1948, preferring war with the ultimate aim of the destruction of Israel. Nothing has changed. Except you tryig to distort historical fact of course.

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  83. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Rajib Karim landed a job with BA as part of a plot to blow up a flight to the US..He believes in terrorist actions creating a pure islamic state. How can this still happen in the UK?

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  84. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Put it away.
    What really gets a sick fuck like Luc Hansen excited is naked bodies dancing at the
    nudist new moon. He will tell you that himself.
    Lets not bullshit each other.
    Eye candy, thats what its all about when it cums down to it for luc
    Is that right Luc ?
    Why else would you be a sicko nudist ?
    There is only one thing sure to get a sicko like Luc drooling. Right Luc, you deviant?
    Luc is mainstream on that.
    What a laughable, bent, depraved pathetic article you are luc.

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  85. immigant (950 comments) says:

    Muslim – only group allowed to cover their face in NZ court, only group I’ve ever heard wanting seperate swimmign pools. What a bunch of assholes.

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  86. slightlyrighty (2,448 comments) says:

    Luc.

    How was your after work beer?

    I ask because there are some very vocal muslims who wish to impose their beliefs wherever they go. The goal is global Islam. Now the majority of muslims are very likely live and let live folk. Those that I have met, and there have been quite a few, do not wish to impose their beliefs on us, but do ask the courtesy that we respect theirs.

    There are others who wish to shape the society they live in to suit their own religion. This sort of fundamentalism is anathema to most western countries, regardless of the origin of those beliefs. There are some christians who need a good talking to in that regard.

    Now imagine that a group, such as fundmentalist muslims, lobby the government saying that in order to respect their beliefs, NZ must change so that no muslim can be offended by the sight of something against their religion.

    No Bacon? (there are already some fast food establishments that do not have bacon in deference to muslims).

    Women to be modestly dressed at all times?

    Honour Killings?

    No Booze?

    Now was that beer again Luc?

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  87. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    No piggy banks, no music classes , no phys ed classes , no dog saliva , no dog breath , no dogs , no chess , no cricket , no science classes , no fun , no life , no sense , no justice….just pure nuttiness.

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  88. cody (1 comment) says:

    Wow, those British are really dumb. Cameron is trying to save them from ethonosuicide, and they are worried about maintaining their liberalism. How the masses can be decieved!

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