Don v Hone

May 4th, 2011 at 8:17 pm by David Farrar

Did you watch them on Close Up?

I thought Don did well. Initially I was hesitant about the wisdom of mixing it up with Hone, but I think Don managed to get a clear message across which will appeal to a fair few people.

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110 Responses to “Don v Hone”

  1. the bird is the word (69 comments) says:

    Don Brash did very well. He kept his cool and still managed to get his point across. Good on him

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  2. toad (3,668 comments) says:

    Um, what was Don’s clear message, DPF?

    Maori deserve to remain second class citizens if they don’t step up and accept my prescription of devil-take-the-hindmost capitalism.

    Perhaps?

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  3. double d (225 comments) says:

    Don is too polite, has to stop doing the double point, doesnt come across well.
    needs to learn to talk assertively and ignore background chatter.
    politics aside.
    hone has a huge chip on his shoulder.

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  4. Chuck Bird (4,661 comments) says:

    Don did pretty good good in his debate with Hone. He could have done much better but you missed an opportunity. Hone said or strongly implied that he spoke for Maori. I know a lot of Maori and I know that Hone does not speak for the majority of Maori let alone all Maori. Some regard him as racist or a reverse racist. The Maori Party got a small percentage of the Maori vote. The left wind racist Mana Party will get an even smaller percentage of the Maori vote.

    I understand ACT’s present position on Maori seats is that there be a binding referendum on the Maori seats. I hope he sticks with that policy. I think that would be much better than dumping the Maori seats by a back room coalition deal.

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  5. Rodders (1,790 comments) says:

    Would toad prefer Hone’s message that non-Maori deserve to remain second class citizens if they don’t step up and accept the Mana Party’s prescription of devil-take-the-hindmost racism?

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  6. Inventory2 (10,088 comments) says:

    Actually toad, I daresay there would be some very anxious faces at Green HQ tonight over what was quite a credible performance from Harawira, and an accomplished showing from Brash. I can see Green votes leaking to the Mana Party.

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  7. Pete George (22,733 comments) says:

    A very mixed bag from both that will change minds little if at all.

    Brash needs to learn to match strong talk with a strong posture, his body language doesn’t match last week’s reputation.

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  8. the bird is the word (69 comments) says:

    “I understand ACT’s present position on Maori seats is that there be a binding referendum on the Maori seats. I hope he sticks with that policy.”

    Couldn’t agree more. There should be a binding referendum at the 2014 election (assuming MMP is retained).

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  9. MikeG (391 comments) says:

    Brash needs to stop interrupting. Hone was very polite when Don was speaking, but I can’t say the politeness was returned.

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  10. orewa1 (428 comments) says:

    Intellectually Brash did better.

    But in media and politics its not what you say, its how you say it. On that basis Hone 8, Don 2.

    Much as I am intellectually much more right than left, I think ACT will rue the day they brought bumbling, geriatric Brash back aboard. He was conspicuousy the wrong choice as tonight’s interview showed. Hide (heaven help us all) would have fronted this interview far better.

    Where are the sensible, rational, normal right wing people?

    NZ needs ACT. Key is too timid – desparate for universal love and thus unwilling to take the really hard decisions that we all know this country needs desperately. ACT is necessary to deliver that message, but has blown it by picking the wrong guy to head the coup.

    I despair.

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  11. Caleb (467 comments) says:

    Don would do well to ignore Hones attempts to appeal to the ignorant and the ‘pour’.

    He needs to get a simple message out to the mainstream, the taxpayers.

    People who work hard will prosper.

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  12. Pete George (22,733 comments) says:

    Maori seats are a bit of Clayton’s problem – they diversify representation and don’t add any weight to any individual vote. Ideally in time they should be dispensed with but like the monarchy there’s no real harm in retaining them for a while.

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  13. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    I got demerits for using blockquotes and making a fake (but accurate) quote, toad.

    Just FYI.

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  14. double d (225 comments) says:

    orewa 1
    Where are the sensible, rational, normal right wing people?

    agree 100%

    don just cannot articulate very simple messages.

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  15. Chuck Bird (4,661 comments) says:

    “here’s no real harm in retaining them for a while.”

    Like another 140 years.

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  16. Caleb (467 comments) says:

    The right has got serious problems if it picks holes in its only slight hope for this country.
    Sure, Don would do much better if he sat up straight and kept a neutral face, but lacking that, is better than not having him.
    It may mean he never becomes popular, then who is, with our msm and the policies required to get this country turned around.

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  17. smttc (687 comments) says:

    PG, you say some fuckin stupid meaningless things on this blog (perhaps to surpass Redbaiter’s total posted comments). Your last comment is right up there with the most stupidist of them. I am sure you should be spending more time at Red Alert or the Standard.

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  18. Deborah (156 comments) says:

    You’ve tagged this as “Done Brash”, DPF.

    A bit Freudian?

    [DPF: ha how funny]

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  19. trout (898 comments) says:

    Brash did well; stayed on message, kept it simple. Sitting close side by side and having to talk across Hone to the interviewer created posture problems for him; Hone was able to sit square on and look more assured. Hone is projecting a very confused message; a mixture of maori sovereignty and separatism ( which will attract few votes) mixed with a socialist agenda (make things lousy for everybody) which may draw votes from the Left. He is not good news for Labour or the Greens.

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  20. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    I can see Green votes leaking to the Mana Party.

    I’ve heard this sort of thing so many times over the years. Can one finally see this dream become a reality?

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  21. Peter (1,577 comments) says:

    Hone is going to take votes from the Greens, so I hope he does well(ish)

    .

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  22. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    I disagree with virtually everything Hone said, to the extent that I could understand what he was saying.

    But I will say I think Hone comes across as a very skillful politician. He keeps his message simple. He gives his voters someone to blame. He presents himself as the solution. And his manner is likeable and reasonable, even if his arguments are not. I can practically hear his voters in Te Tai Tokereu cheering every time he speaks.

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  23. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    The Debate was a mess. Don and Hone don’t agree on the treaty for a start. Hones view is the same as the Greens: the indigenous version is the correct one meaning Maori retain their tribal territories and non Maori are “guests” or “tauiwi” in Green Party parlance.

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  24. Pete George (22,733 comments) says:

    smttc, your’s was not exactly a meaningful contribution, should you be spending more time at trueblue?

    I think it’s valid pointing out connections between two historical parts of our political system, neither of which we really still need but neither doing much harm either. Or do you think we should do away with both as soon as possible?

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  25. dime (9,356 comments) says:

    people are starving in this country? i say BULLSHIT

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  26. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    I see the old Pinus Radiata Maori carving (Te Clendon) is on the other bun-fight: Backbenchers. That silver haired thing represents Labour…?!!! Labour used to be about people who work!

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  27. dime (9,356 comments) says:

    just watching it now. does the idiot walrus and john realise that the don isnt in parliament?

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  28. dime (9,356 comments) says:

    Would maori be better off having their own state?

    John: i dont think they would be.

    yeah no shit, youd have no one to scab off

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  29. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    We don’t get the old Totora fence post Te Bradford any more thank goodness.

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  30. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    I don’t think blue collar chaps like me want our modest take home pay going to a bloated Ministry of Lesbian affairs.

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  31. Pete George (22,733 comments) says:

    This is one of Harawira’s most damaging (to himself) repeat lines:

    Harawira stood by his 2005 comments that Brash’s politics were like Hitler’s, telling him: “When you target Maori, it’s very much like Hitler targeting the Jews.”

    The Southland Times editorial comments on this, and closes with a good line:

    …we find ourselves recalling the placard for US satirical commentator Jon Stewart’s Rally to Restore Sanity:
    “I disagree with your views, but I’m pretty sure you’re not Hitler”.

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  32. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    Actually old Don is a great economics student but his verbal skills aren’t up to Hones. Hone is paper thin but you have to understand his argument to rip it open.

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  33. dime (9,356 comments) says:

    i like how Hone sulks. if he hears something he doesnt like, he dismisses it and then sulks. then realises hes in a debate and he cant do his arrogant maori thing and had to reengage. funny.

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  34. RRM (9,420 comments) says:

    I’m almost sorry I missed the show now, even though I won’t be voting for either of them.

    This leftie was working late, earning his living, paying taxes, trying to get ahead… you know, that stuff y’all keep insisting the right has a monopoly on.

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  35. reid (15,912 comments) says:

    Lots of significant body language going on there, interesting . Richard Pease’s many books on body language are well worth reading, BTW. 80% of communication is non-verbal.

    As usual the Walrus doesn’t pursue the relevant lines and changes the subject just when things get to a critical breakthrough.

    Hone = racist, arrogant mofo trying to dominate but not succeeding
    Don = calm, unfazed in the face of extreme provocation, handled it better than just about anyone would have, apart from Muldoon and Prebble would have
    Mark = good marks for trying, but as usual, D-minus for technique. Given this is all he does for a living, when is TVNZ going to get a strong interviewer for these “special shows:” e.g. Lindsay Perigo.

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  36. dime (9,356 comments) says:

    RRM – tvnz on demand.

    also, good for you, working hard. feel free to donate money to charity after paying your tax. that way, you can be a happy lefty and we can be happy keeping our own cash

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  37. reid (15,912 comments) says:

    “I’m almost sorry I missed the show now, even though I won’t be voting for either of them.”

    TVNZ On Demand RRM. Heard of it?

    we can be happy keeping our own cash

    Exactly RRM, you just keep working, and call up all your mates as well, and make them work really really hard too. I just wish we hadn’t been forced to raised the minimum wage so much, in order we could keep even more profit.

    Meanwhile we rich pricks will just take a dip in our money bins, as we do all the time. Isn’t life just wonderful.

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  38. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Feel sorry for Don , he needs about 20 less years and 30kgs of more body weight, stand up to Mofo. Maori are always happy to argue the point but sometimes if not most of the times might is right. You well no doubt disagree with me but I’ve found that if one shows weakness in a Maori context then all is lost. When one talks to Maori ( yeah racist ) one must speak as an equal or in a dominant position. For what it is worth. They speak the same way to their own people. Maori society isn’t based on that loving caring system it’s based on the strong rule. Until our pussy wiped dribbling suck hole politicians get a serious hard on they will be continue to be laughed at by Maori.

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  39. Tez (1 comment) says:

    Of course Brash did better, but when Hone kept raving on about Maori not doing well he needed to challenge him on that. He needed to ask why Maori aren’t doing well. And the simple answer is this: Maori aren’t doing well because of New Zealand’s socialist policies; the entitlement policies. For decades New Zealand has been throwing money at Maori through the welfare system and it has now become an entitlement. Maori are now dependent on welfare, and through this a large percentage have become useless.

    Think about this for a moment. Everytime you give someone welfare, you are essentially saying this: “here is some money you useless, hopeless person; here is some money you idiot that can’t get a job; here is some money you person who is incapable of personal responsibility.”

    Hone is nothing more than a bitter and twisted racist.

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  40. reid (15,912 comments) says:

    Seriously, what this says to me is, Brash has learned. He rolled over on the racist meme the lefties threw at him last time round. He’s not going to do so again.

    The lefties are going to throw all sorts of dirt at him, it could be one of the dirtiest campaigns ever. They’ll wheel out every sleazy thing they can. Luckily Hulun’s no longer in charge of the apparatus of state so no criminal misuse of SIS and Police information will occur, this time. But she knows a lot and a lot of people there owe her a lot and she’ll use it, at the right moment, you bet.

    But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice… well, ya can’t be fooled again.

    What Don needs to do is steal buy George Hawkins files on all the Liarbore caucus past and present, then there wouldn’t be any peeps whatsoever, cause I bet Hulun’s is a doozy.

    Still, with what Whaleoil Publishing is planning, maybe he won’t need to.

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  41. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Did I hear Hone right, the Maori seats are racist and were imposed by a racist regime?

    So…what’s the problem with getting rid of them now then?

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  42. oob (194 comments) says:

    This leftie was working late, earning his living, paying taxes, trying to get ahead… you know, that stuff y’all keep insisting the right has a monopoly on.

    Sorry Pal: drinking beer and toking off a P pipe while beating the snot out of your kids isn’t “working.”

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  43. Brian Smaller (3,982 comments) says:

    I think Don did terribly and I am a supporter. Brash should have stated that it was impossible to have an intelligent conversation with someone with such a racist chip on his shoulder. He should have asked Hone which white motherfuckers did he expect to support the Mana Party – other than John Minto.

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  44. dime (9,356 comments) says:

    “Sorry Pal: drinking beer and toking off a P pipe while beating the snot out of your kids isn’t “working.” ”

    BAHAHAHAHA harsh but funny!

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  45. 103PapPap (125 comments) says:

    I watched this tonight.

    Now I remember why I watch John Cambell!

    Sainsbury is useless!

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  46. oob (194 comments) says:

    Reid:Richard Pease’s..

    Alan Pease, member of Lindy Chamberlain’s defence team.

    ..many books on body language are well worth reading, BTW. 80% of communication is non-verbal.

    According to Alan Pease and widely debunked. It’s nonsense guy.

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  47. CharlieBrown (889 comments) says:

    orewa1 – “NZ needs ACT. Key is too timid – desparate for universal love and thus unwilling to take the really hard decisions that we all know this country needs desperately. ACT is necessary to deliver that message, but has blown it by picking the wrong guy to head the coup.”

    I think and hope that most people that will vote for act aren’t stupid enough to get sucked into personality politics. As an ACT supporter that wasn’t going to vote this election untill last week, I care about policy over which dick head fronts the party.

    Interesting thing about what Hone wants, ACT will get more intelligent maori voting for them than he does.

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  48. Buaidh No Bars (17 comments) says:

    Muldoon had a huge failed poilicy – subsidies to farmers. They became lazy and inwards looking similar to some indiginous races. They wanted self rule of governance, supply and marketing chains to protect their subsidised ways.

    Once the farmers got over the shock of subsidies being stopped an odd thing happened. They became efficient farmers earning a reasonable income through better behaviour and their self esteem improved. They took a better interest in education in their farming technique. Families were happier and all things considered the recognised the error of their former existence that was forced on them by self righteous people who really wanted higher salries for themselves in their governance positions.

    Hone avoids talking about the many maori who are sucessfull and good citizens and got their by escaping a subsidised lifestyle and grasping education.

    Rather, Hone wants to keep the handouts and separate policies that create the very crisis he claims to want to improve. ie. The subsidised lifestyle that causes the very problems he then claims to want to fix.

    Hone argues for tino rangitiratanga. He fails to understand Maori already have their own separate states and self rule. There are several sprate states scattered thoughout the country with their own tino rangatiratanga through the uniformed people who vet who enters and who leaves. These states fully subsidise the residents. There is very little incentive for the residents to escape this subsidised existence. Some try but merely return to be subsidised instead.

    Hone must really dislike his fellow Maori to want to keep them in this dependent state.
    Or.
    Perhaps he merely wants his higher salary and bugger the subjects. Whoops bad choice or wording when talking of the separate states.

    Pardon me but isn’t separate governance an element of arpartheid which John Minto fought hard to get rid of and here he is slap bang in a hate based separatist party with racist policies.

    Then there is Sykes who applauded 9/11. How this squares with Minto is a mystery to me.

    They only good thing about the Mana Party appears to be Sue Bradford who single handly protected every child from abuse in New Zealand. Opps just remembered there has been no significant change in the child abuse and death rate. And whoops again she has lead a subsidised existence.

    Politics is just so hard to understand.

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  49. starboard (2,463 comments) says:

    ..and the world just carries on…

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  50. John Ansell (861 comments) says:

    Hone’s right: one certainly can compare Don to Hitler. Let’s do it now…

    * Hitler ended six million Jewish lives and believed Germans were superior.
    * Brash would end Maori privilege and believes New Zealanders are equal.

    See the sinister similarity?

    It’s not widely known, but in the 1960s at university in Canberra, Don refused to join his friends in the Australian Labor Party.

    Why? Because he was a raging right-winger, right? Er, not exactly.

    In fact, the young Don was a Fabian socialist and protege of the Marxist economist Wolf Rosenberg. For his doctorate thesis, he studied foreign investment in Australia, expecting to prove that it was a blight on the landscape.

    He had something of a political epiphany when he found the reverse to be true.

    No. The same Don Brash who is today pilloried as a racist by Harawira and said by Hone to be planning some sort of iwi cleansing programme, refused to join Labor because HE COULD NOT COUNTENANCE THE PARTY’S WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY.

    (Along similar lines, he also defied his peers by pulling out of school cadets a decade earlier, because of his pacifist beliefs.)

    In politics as in life, things are often the opposite of the way they seem. Don Brash is the complete opposite of racist, just as Hone (Te Matawhaka) Harawira is the complete opposite of racially tolerant.

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  51. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    The weakness in Dons argument is pretending that the treaty works. It makes Hones demands that we don’t honour it seem reasonable. If you accept the Maori version you get a tiddler trying to swallow a whale, because, the Maori argument is that they retain their tribal territories under aboriginal title and Te Tiritti. So then you get to the point when you realise that (as Chris Trotter puts it) “for who can argue that at some time the whole georgaphic entity known as New Zealand was not the property of Maori collectives.,”

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  52. reid (15,912 comments) says:

    Until our pussy wiped dribbling suck hole politicians get a serious hard on they will be continue to be laughed at by Maori.

    That’s kinda why I suggested Muldoon or Prebble would have been a better match for Hone but Brash is what we have and he has additional qualities apart from being a warrior, which he isn’t, ssb.

    I agree, Maori respect fighting cause they are warriors and Hone is a warrior. However warriors will tell you sometimes it’s the smallest guy in the platoon that proves to be the biggest and the baddest. You just don’t know. Brash is not competing against Hone, that’s the critical point. He’s competing for the former ACT voters who migrated to National when he was leader and never returned under Rodney. That’s Brash’s base.

    I see this whole Brash-racist thing as a distraction, but it’s what the MSM will focus on cause they’re idiots and missing the main event has never been a problem for them, but also, I see it as Don vindicating himself. He’s the sort of man who would be genuinely hurt by such an accusation.

    The irony is, I think, that the people he’s wooing never believed he was anyway, and the people who did believe it, would never let themselves be wooed by him.

    I think it’s a bit of a Don Quixote thing in some respects politically therefore, but I fully appreciate the need for Don, anyone, to vigorously wish to clear their good name, against such a vile, unjust, false and plain malicious accusation. If I were Don however, I’d be thinking that if anyone were dumb enough to believe I was a racist, then I wouldn’t want their vote anyway. That would free me to concentrate on what matters.

    According to Alan Pease and widely debunked.

    Thanks for the correction oob, and while your mileage may vary, I’ve tried it, and it works for me, in real life, not just on a blog.

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  53. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    If anyone can be compared to Hitler it is Hone. Or perhaps more accurately Robert Mugabe.

    Can you imagine if he was PM and the Mana party was the government?

    Oh yeah, we’d all be loving that fun time.

    A new Zimbabwe.

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  54. Sonny Blount (1,845 comments) says:

    TVNZ is a disgrace as a public broadcaster.

    You couldn’t have a poorer set design or a poorer presenter.

    They had great fuel for a debate but Mark got bugger all out of them over the time spent.

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  55. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    At easter 1998 Harawira gave a history of Maori struggle to the Asia Pacific Solidarity Conference in Sydney;
    The Maori population was about 1 million when the Europeans came. We had a stable society with our own social controls, our own conservation methods, our own rules of behaviour towards one another.

    When Pakehas (white people) came, they brought crime and diseases which almost wiped us out. The population dropped to 40,000 between 1800 and 1900. More died from disease than the big wars we had with the Pakehas. The population is now around 500,000-600,000.
    http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2007/08/hone-harawira-beefsteak-radical.html

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  56. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Well, in my opinion the Walrus is a tad better than the Bumbling Hedgehog.

    Paul Henry would have done an excellent job.

    Oh but that’s right they sacked him as he wasn’t PCNZ enough.

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  57. reid (15,912 comments) says:

    In fact, the young Don was a Fabian socialist and protege of the Marxist economist Wolf Rosenberg.

    This is possibly why Don and Hulun got on so very well.

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  58. Linda Reid (396 comments) says:

    Maori population http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/classroom/ncea3/19th-century-history-overview

    “New Zealand in 1800 was a Maori world. Maori society was based on hapu and iwi and was organised and maintained by a number of core beliefs. The population in 1800 was estimated at anywhere between 100-120,000. The European population generally numbered in the hundreds. The inter-tribal Musket Wars of this period had a dramatic impact on the Maori population with as many as a fifth killed and many thousands captured by rival tribes. On the eve of the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi the Maori population of between 70-90,000 still comfortably outnumbered the non-Maori population of 2000.”

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  59. Caleb (467 comments) says:

    How can you debate Hone?

    You can not put Hone in a corner, he will mis-direct and make little sense.
    He should just come out and say ‘ vote for me, ill raise the bene and tax the shit out of rich white people’.

    Ignore him and focus on getting some mileage with the people you want to vote for you.

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  60. ch123 (556 comments) says:

    The funny thing is that if the unthinkable happend, that somehow Hone’s party won an election and he became PM then he’d get exactly what he wants: the white mofos would all leave NZ. Then of course the law of unintended consequence would come into play and the left over suckers would be down shit creek with no one to give them their handouts any more.

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  61. The Silent Majority (82 comments) says:

    Don Brash was fantastic and came across as a reasonable, reasoned, principled, thinking New Zealander which then just showed up Hone as the radical that he is.

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  62. reid (15,912 comments) says:

    How can you debate Hone?

    Use body language. Hone wouldn’t know what hit him.

    Look at that interview again, look what Hone does with his hands. He invades Don’s space on numerous occasions, when he’s not invading Don’s space he’s making arrogant gestures like looking to the ceiling when Don’s talking.

    Don should have responded in kind. Hone would have responded on a subconscious level cause the way he was gesturing he’s not aware of what he’s revealing. Don could have got Hone to raise his fist to him, on National TV.

    What would have been the main story on Morning Report then?

    And Hone would all the time have been reacting without even thinking. And Don wouldn’t have been assaulted, no way. Hone’s too smart for that. But it would have shown Hone up for the thug he actually is. An intelligent thug but nevertheless a thug. And if Hone catches on and starts consciously stopping himself from doing that, he’s lost his poise. Either way, you stop him.

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  63. reid (15,912 comments) says:

    At easter 1998 Harawira gave a history of Maori struggle to the Asia Pacific Solidarity Conference in Sydney; The Maori population was about 1 million when the Europeans came. When Pakehas (white people) came… the population dropped to 40,000 between 1800 and 1900. More died from disease than the big wars we had with the Pakehas. The population is now around 500,000-600,000.

    So what, hj?

    How BTW does Hone reliably know it was 1m people when the Europeans came? Did he use census data or what?

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  64. John Ansell (861 comments) says:

    I don’t think Hone could do much to further damage his reputation among reasonable people. It doesn’t say much for those who vote for him.

    But Don’s reputation improves when he takes on his most vicious accuser and wins.

    I hope they go at it again.

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  65. The Silent Majority (82 comments) says:

    # John Ansell (726) Says:
    May 4th, 2011 at 10:43 pm

    “I hope they go at it again.”

    The gift that would keep on giving.
    And while he is at it, how about a debate with Bill English on Close Up after the Budget?

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  66. reid (15,912 comments) says:

    a debate with Bill English on Close Up after the Budget?

    Surely Walrus/Close Up producers aren’t astute enough to see how many rating points they’d get with that one.

    P.S. I’m surprised hj hasn’t responded yet to my 10:41. I would have thought such information would be at the fingertips of every Maori. One assumes it’s a very well known “fact.”

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  67. Anthony (766 comments) says:

    Maori signed the Treaty to protect themselves as with muskets they were killing each other flat out. Surely no one believes there 1 million Maori in NZ pre European arrival???

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  68. V (668 comments) says:

    Walrus is a useless interviewer. The interview lurched all over the place, yet at the same time never managed to get outside the stupid treaty issue.
    Both Don and Hone agreed that the Maori feature in the dept. of poor outcomes, however no time was spent on the policy to address this, let alone any deep analysis of the unseen outcomes of such policies.

    Obviously there are huge unseen economic issues when one parties policies is simply to redistribute more wealth from the ‘rich’ to the ‘poor’.

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  69. publicwatchdog (2,093 comments) says:

    # The Silent Majority (65) Says:
    May 4th, 2011 at 10:24 pm

    Don Brash was fantastic and came across as a reasonable, reasoned, principled, thinking New Zealander which then just showed up Hone as the radical that he is.”

    ‘Don the Dictator’ came across as a yappy, slightly desperate, geriatric fox terrier to me – with all his constant interrupting.

    Articulate ‘elder statesman’ Don Bra$h definitely is not.

    (errrr…. he’s not even an MP – he’s a corporate carpetbagger who has effectively bought the leadership of a political party he wasn’t even a member of, until two hours before assuming this role?)

    However, with all that access to corporate bankrolling – you’d think that Bra$h – ‘I’ve got the ca$h – could afford better media training?

    Or maybe it’s just not possible to turn political goat sh*t into marketable electoral honey?

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  70. James (1,338 comments) says:

    PB : Or maybe it’s just not possible to turn political goat sh*t into marketable electoral honey?

    And if anyone would know that its our friend Penny….;-)

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  71. double d (225 comments) says:

    James – haha
    Future MP for Tamaki anyone ……..

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  72. Courage Wolf (559 comments) says:

    As much as I dislike Hone, Don really came across as weak in that debate. The above poster hit the nail on the head when he said Don needs to be more assertive – that doesn’t mean he needs to be rude, but at the very least he needs to stop acting like a wussy and strongly put Hone in his place when Hone misrepresents him (rather than just shaking his head).

    Put it this way – what kind of lawyer would you rather have represent you in court – one who is loud and clear, or one who has the appearance of being subservient to their opponent? Will a female lion choose an alpha lion with a loud roar that shows that it can protect its family, or a beta lion who has a quieter roar, implying that it is afraid to challenge the alpha lion?

    Don’s opinions are more valid and have more substance, but without a good presentation even a lawyer who has done all his research and theoretically should win the case cannot if he does not have the practical skills to appear convincing (and right) to the jury.

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  73. James (1,338 comments) says:

    True CW….Brash needs a “man-over” and fast. The problems obvious…now lets have John Ansell etc work on him hard till the election.

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  74. SPC (5,334 comments) says:

    If Don Brash (doing his thesis on this) did not distinguish between investment (better) and non investment and foreign investment and local investment (better) then his reputation for intellectual capacirty, let alone simple logic in matters of economics, is over-stated.

    If Don Brash cannot see the need to mitigate treating all people equally when some need a hand up (such as exceptions from general immigration rules for political refugees) and ensuring that where an injustice that has occurred in the past this is remedied, then his doctrinaire position is a weakness rather than a strength.

    And that is without noting the special nature of a nation founded by Treaty and international expectations of how indigenous peoples rights are to be recognised.

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  75. Thrash Cardiom (298 comments) says:

    I watched part of the ‘debate’ but gave up on it as it didn’t seem to be particularly informative or productive. The one thing that got me most though was Don’s puppet hands. He holds them and waves them around exactly like the hands of a marionette.

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  76. NeillR (347 comments) says:

    I thought they both looked and sounded like political dinosaurs.

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  77. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    To be honest I would say Hone was subject to abuse as a kid.

    That is the only thing that makes me feel sad for the ugly racist prick.

    Come clean Hone.

    And your God will try to absolve you of all your sins, anger and hatred.

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  78. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    And most importantly Hone, it weren’t no white MOFO that abused you.

    But you still blame the “system”.

    Your only DESTINY, filled with misguided racist hate is FAILURE.

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  79. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Peter Sharples seems a nice intelligent karmic Maori guy to me.

    OK we would disagree on many issues but I sense he is a cool dude and my skin colour would not make him irrational or fake towards me.

    Give it up Hone.

    The new Maori party are just wayy superior to you….racist loser.

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  80. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    My little boy (4-and -three-quarters) said “Why are they both shouting over each other at the same time?” I think he nailed it. As an interview it was poorly run, there was a lot of hot air and posturing from both parties and clearly both had painted themselves into mindsets which neither could publically resile from. I did not get much sense of real,personal conviction from either.

    If Brash is aiming to get votes based solely on a slogan like: ‘Look, I’m not a racist’, then clearly Hone has nailed him.
    But if Hone is aiming for votes based solely on ‘Maori are suffering under the racist yoke.’ then ditto.

    We decided to give it the flick and watch ‘Susie’s World’ on DVD – an educational and properly thought out presentation.

    Increasingly, I judge it like this: As a responsible parent Would I have want my boy exposed to the presence of these two toxic minds, with their petty, futile self-interested posturing? No.

    Did either of these clowns represent the kind of New Zealand I want my kid to be to be raised in? No.

    Would I point to either of them and say ‘These are great thinkers, boy, and one day you can tell your grandkids about them.’?

    Well, what do you think? I think that these two were both so shallow, I hardly go my feet wet walking through their opinions.
    And they both ‘Lead political parties’. . . .

    Jesus wept, Is this it?

    Is this really the benchmark of political aspiration we intend to leave our future generations to represent our collective political legacy?

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  81. thedavincimode (6,519 comments) says:

    “Or maybe it’s just not possible to turn political goat sh*t into marketable electoral honey?”

    That seems to be what the people of Botany decided Mrs Dim.

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  82. thedavincimode (6,519 comments) says:

    The interesting aspect is the range of different reactions to that “debate”. I thought Brash’s body language was good PG; non-confrontational. At times, Hone was almost child-like in his responses and it was interesting that he has clearly been pumped up by his cast of rag tag losers to trot out the dreary old pinko party line. Whether he does any more work on this remains to be seen – likely too lazy in contrast to Turei who has clrealy put work into polishing her weary spin.

    It was also interesting that yet again, there was substantial common ground on outcomes but complete disagreement on how to get there.

    One thing for sure though, is that yet again fungus face was the loser. I just cannot understand how he can keep his job.

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  83. Viking2 (11,125 comments) says:

    Bin Laden a freedom fighter, says Harawira

    Hone Harawira has described Osama bin Laden as “a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”.

    In tributes on Maori-language television, the leader of the new Mana Party said the al-Qaeda founder should be “honoured” rather than “damned” in death according to Maori culture.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10723505

    Was Hone funding the Urewera 17?

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  84. Pete George (22,733 comments) says:

    Harawira wants to appeal to the votes of the poor and downtrodden, and the working class. If you disregard his words he sounds eloquent and educated. Maybe he can switch to an alternate persona in a local bar or soup kitchen.

    Brash confirmed his credentials as a PR nightmare. He looks wimpier than Russel Norman and doesn’t speak with conviction. Repeating “one law for all” (whatever that means), “article 2 of the treaty”, “the gap with Australia” and “I got 39.1%” with a slouch will struggle to attract 3.91%.

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  85. publicwatchdog (2,093 comments) says:

    # thedavincimode (1,563) Says:
    May 5th, 2011 at 6:38 am

    “Or maybe it’s just not possible to turn political goat sh*t into marketable electoral honey?”

    That seems to be what the people of Botany decided Mrs Dim.”
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    My thoughts exactly – ,’ thedavincimode’.
    Asset sales are ‘political goat sh*t’ – so that’s why over 9000 (former?) National Party voters chose not to in Botany?

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  86. Manolo (13,315 comments) says:

    NZ needs ACT. Key is too timid..

    Now tell me something I don’t know. You’re far too kind calling smile-and-wave “timid”.

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  87. thedavincimode (6,519 comments) says:

    My point, as you well know you silly, silly, thing, was directed at your 124 votes. The fact that you, of all people, could crticise someone else as being political goat shit, is just absolutely laughable. You really are a complete and utter idiot.

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  88. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    SPC Says:
    And that is without noting the special nature of a nation founded by Treaty and international expectations of how indigenous peoples rights are to be recognised.
    ………………….
    The Nation isn’t founded on the treaty except in a superficial way.

    The international expectation
    Activists in the UN. People when they move between nations expect that they have equality under the nation state. Maori would have it that we are second class citizens in tribal territory (like Indians are in Fiji).

    “With the recent announcement of the Fijian Government to give ownership of its coastal areas to indigenous tribes, it would be ideal to hope that this could offer some support to Maori arguments by is unlikely to have any effect here.

    “I completely support and endorse what the Fijian Government has done. They’ve taken an initiative that this Government needs to follow. That unfortunately is not the case with the Government here; the indigenous Fijians are the majority and are in Government where as we are not,” Hingston said.
    http://www.kahungunu.iwi.nz/…/FIGHTINGTALKONFORESHOREHingstonTalk.doc
    FIGHTING TALK ON FORESHORE
    By Kui Paki – Tu Mai February 04 – An interview with Judge Ken Heta Hingston

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  89. James Stephenson (2,006 comments) says:

    My thoughts exactly – ,’ thedavincimode’.
    Asset sales are ‘political goat sh*t’ – so that’s why over 9000 (former?) National Party voters chose not to in Botany?

    That’s like drawing conclusions about overall support for Man Utd when Old Trafford is half-full for a mid-week game against Accrington Stanley.

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  90. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    found 1
    (found)
    tr.v. found·ed, found·ing, founds
    1. To establish or set up, especially with provision for continuing existence: The college was founded in 1872.

    Would our state have existed today without the treaty? Ships were on the water; Maori were divided; only about 5% lived in the South Island; gold was waiting to be discovered; the French were lining up NZ.
    In the treaty the issue of sovereignty wasn’t agreed with sincerity or an understanding of the implications. At the time of signing it was the representatives of the strongest nation on earth who were weakest but without a result they wouldn’t have got to go home to family and congregation so they gambled on future assimilation. Maori had no idea of the sheer mass of migrants on the way. The do gooders on the left would have us assume a blunt assertion of tribal power and cast it forward to the year 2011.

    2. To establish the foundation or basis of; base: found a theory on firm evidence.

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  91. Sonny Blount (1,845 comments) says:

    Don got through loud and clear to his potential voters.

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  92. EverlastingFire (291 comments) says:

    I wish I could get a list of all the people that vote for Hone’s party this election. I just want to know who the dumbest brown people and communists are in this country.

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  93. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Well – as they say – A weeks a long time in Politics.

    Hone is the best thing that could happen to Brash. I can see the crowds running to the voting booth to vote for Don so that someone will control Hone and stop his bullshit.

    One thing is for sure – Keys job has got much more complicated and hes going to lose votes to Brash. Keys cuddling of the maori Leadership Group (or is it Iwi leadership) will cost him, as will his apparent paralysis to get some innovative programmes underway. Its going to get very interesting.

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  94. thedavincimode (6,519 comments) says:

    “I just want to know who the dumbest brown people and communists are in this country.”

    You’re looking at them. Its called the Mana party.

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  95. comsumist (59 comments) says:

    @Penny Bright… errm, speaking of “yappy, slightly desperate, geriatric fox terriers” sounds like throwing stones in glass houses to me eh?

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  96. David Garrett (6,309 comments) says:

    I’m afraid those who say Don did better on that “debate” are deluding themselves. Hone had clearly been well coached, and surprisingly, he had obviously listened to the advice he was given.

    He adopted that soft, slow delivery patented by the late (Sad) Syd Jackson: say very radical things softly and “reasonably” and they sound much less scary – even reasonable. Every time Don tried to rebut him, Hone said “taihoa”, and Don did; probably – perhaps subconsciously – because he thought that to continue would be construed as acting like the colonial master Hone is so fond of invoking as the source and cause of all Maori problems.

    Don also said – several times – “there’s no mention of partnership in [articles one or three of] the treaty”. Quite true, but beside the point. The whole notion of “partnership” – and the supposed “principles” contained in some mystical subtext in the three paragraph doucment that is “the treaty” – come from Court of Appeal decisions in the 1980′s and 90′s. That “interpretation” has now become entrenched. I dont know how that can be articulated in a soundbite or bites, but someone needs to teach Don to do so.

    I also got the uncomfortable feeling Don has less of a grasp of Treaty jurisprudence per se than Hone – and that’s pretty scary. At one point Hone mentioned the contra proferentum rule as applied to international treaties – Don looked blank. Hone is an intellectual pygmy compared with Brash. Brash should have been able to wipe the floor with him. He didnt, and is going to have to do much better. I score this round Hone 7 Don 3

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  97. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    The whole treaty issue is poorly understood (understandably). It is touted as something great but when it comes to the basic issue of soveriegnty it follows two courses. Hones course may be summed up as “Aotearoa is Maori”. If Don had established that he could have then questioned the egalitarianism of a race based state, no?

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  98. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    I like this explanation of the signing of the treaty from David Slacks book Bullshit, Backlash, and Bleeding Hearts.

    “Time for some expert help here. The first lecturer I had at law school who taught our class anything Treaty-related was Alex Frame
    ./ …./
    People sometimes ask me, ‘How do I see the Treaty. How should we think of the Treaty?’ I’ve always said that the first article of the Treaty – the kawanatanga part – is very strong – much stronger than some Maori are prepared to concede, and the second article, which guarantees rangatiratanga is also very strong – much stronger than many Pakeha are prepared to concede. So how can we have these two strong articles sitting there? I’m tempted sometimes by this idea. In a way both sides gambled. The Crown gambled. Why was it prepared to sign up to Article II? Well, in a sense the Crown gambled that there would be assimilation. And therefore if there was assimilation, as you will see. Article II would become increasingly unimportant. On the other hand, Maori gambled. After all, why did Maori sign up for Article I – and by the way, don’t go for these readings that say Article I was only giving the Queen power over Pakeha. The most elementary reading of the Maori version of the first article shows that that is completely untenable. It gives the Queen te Kawanatanga katoa – all – of the kawanatanga; o ratou wenua – of their lands. Now, which lands is that? That’s the lands of the chiefs. That’s all it can be -have a look at the structure and I challenge anyone to show me an even faintly tenable reading which can dispute that it’s all the territory of New Zealand.
    So why did Maori sign up to that? Well, I think they gambled. I think they gambled that the demographics in New Zealand would stay, not exactly as they were in 1840, but would stay approximately such that there would be a preponderance of Maori and that the newcomers would be relatively few. I know there is a reference in the preamble to others coming, but I think the gamble was that if the demographics stayed favourable to Maori then this kawanatanga thing would be a really abstract sort of notion in the background. “

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  99. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    “The Ati Awa chief Te Wharepouri told William Wakefield that when he had participated in the sale of land to the New Zealand Company he had been expecting about ten Pakeha, to settle around Port Nicholson, one Pakeha for each pa.
    When he saw the more than 1,000 settlers who stepped off the company’s ships, he panicked. It was beyond anything that Te Wharepouri had imagined.”
    Penguin History of NZ Michael King.

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  100. David Garrett (6,309 comments) says:

    hj: Points very well made. I was taught at law school (in the late 1980′s) that in purely legal terms, the 19th century legal jurist Prendergast got it right when he called the treaty a “legal nullity” – but that is no longer the point either. As correct – and unfashionable – as that analysis probably is, the political reality is that we are now subject to and governed by a whole body of caselaw starting from the 1980′s and continuing to Ngati Apa and beyond. It is perfectly right and proper for the Don to confront – and where appropriate roll back – some or all of that, but first you have to understand how we got where we are – and indeed exactly why we are where we are with “treaty stuff.”

    Hone is clearly listening to his advisors, and he has a whole generation (or two) of university educated Maori – not to mention the lumpen brown proletariat in the North – who will eagerly drink up everything he says, the former group because they have been indoctrinated by the cringing liberals [with a small "l"] who have inhabited uni faculites for forty years. The second group will lap it up just because Hone is “da Man”.

    Don needs to be able to rebut Hone’s arguments – in different ways depending on the audience – and the first step in that process is a thorough and clear understanding of treaty jurisprudence since the late 19th century.

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  101. publicwatchdog (2,093 comments) says:

    David Garrett (278) Says:
    May 5th, 2011 at 10:13 am

    I’m afraid those who say Don did better on that “debate” are deluding themselves. Hone had clearly been well coached, and surprisingly, he had obviously listened to the advice he was given. ..”

    eeeek!

    David Garrett and I agree on something!

    # comsumist (54) Says:
    May 5th, 2011 at 10:05 am

    @Penny Bright… errm, speaking of “yappy, slightly desperate, geriatric fox terriers” sounds like throwing stones in glass houses to me eh?”

    errr….. my 56 years is hardly ‘geriatric’ – I would have thought ‘comsumist’? :)

    I would LOVE to debate with ‘Don the Dictator’ Bra$h – you couldn’t help arrange that could you?

    Think I’d clean him up on his preaching ‘one law for all’?

    When he practices the ‘Golden Rule’?

    ‘Those who have the gold – make the rules’?

    How else did he buy his leadership of the ACT Party – which he assumed, as I understand it, just two hours after becoming a member?

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  102. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    Hillary Calvert would have been an interesting one to pair with Hone. She has attracted the attention of the Greens who are suggesting she is “mad” when in fact she is just demonstrating that she isn’t afraid to say what she thinks even when she is playing with a razor blade. The Greens hate that because she will mercilessly attack their left-wing post modernist positions.
    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2011/04/17/acts-hilary-calvert-on-the-skynet-bill/#comments
    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/12/09/not-raindrops-on-roses-nor-whiskers-on-kittens/

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  103. Owen McShane (1,226 comments) says:

    In order for Court of Appeal commentary – as opposed to the actual decision – to be regarded as authoritative precedent, a majority of the judges in a case must express the view in question.

    New Zealand Maori Council v Attorney-General [1987] (1 NZLR 641, 663) was the first case in which the Court of Appeal was required to define the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.
    In this case, it is at least arguable that a majority of the judges did not support the principle of partnership.

    Cooke P, as he then was, states, “we have all reached two major conclusions. First that the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi override everything else in the State-Owned Enterprises Act. Second that those principles require the Päkehä and Maori Treaty partners to act towards each other reasonably and with the utmost good faith.”

    The Five Judgments
    Cooke P
    • The judgment of Cooke P, is cited as the most supportive of the concept of partnership as we now know it.
    • However, even his judgment is not as definite as is often argued.
    • Cooke P says, “The Treaty signified a partnership between races, and it is in this concept that the answer to the present case has to be found.”
    • He also goes on to say, “for their part the Maori people have undertaken a duty of loyalty to the Queen, full acceptance of her Government through her responsible Ministers, and reasonable cooperation.”

    Richardson J
    • Richardson J’s judgment does not focus on the concept of partnership.
    • His principles focus on the idea of good faith, that is, “the compact requires each party to act reasonably and in good faith towards the other.”
    • Richardson J also states, “in truth the notion of an absolute open-ended and formless duty to consult is incapable of practical fulfillment and cannot be regarded as implicit in the Treaty.”

    Somers J
    • Somers J adopts an approach similar to Richardson J in terms of his focus on good faith, rather than partnership: thus, he states, “each party owed to the other a duty of good faith,” which he sees as analogous to the duty of partners in the context of civil law.

    Casey J
    • Casey J is supportive of Cooke P’s view.
    • He states that what can be derived is “something in the nature of a partnership between the Crown and the Maori people.”
    Bisson J
    • Bisson J states, “the Crown assured [Maori] of the utmost good faith in the manner in which their existing rights would be guaranteed…”

    Conclusion from Judgments
    Cooke P and Casey J focus on the concept of partnership as central to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.
    A majority of the judges, namely Richardson, Somers and Bisson JJ, focus on good faith as the core concept in respect of the principles.
    There have been no subsequent judgments from the Court of Appeal which clearly establish a principle of partnership.
    Practical Application of this Conclusion
    The focus on the concept of partnership, which in many instances provides the justification for Maori to be given enhanced rights in government and local government processes, is misplaced. The judgment could be used in support of added protection for Maori in matters affecting Maori, but not in matters of general application to all New Zealanders.

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  104. KevinH (1,131 comments) says:

    DPF: Sorry to rain on your parade but Don’s performance in this opening round of debates was mediocre. Rodney would have being in his element in that interview and would of performed better.
    Don has to sharpen up on his debating skills, reputations count for nothing in a televised debate, you live and die on what you say and how you perform, and last night my analysis was Hone was the winner.

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  105. Pete George (22,733 comments) says:

    An interesting thing from the debate that seems to have been overshadowed:

    Brash eyes prospect of standing for electorate seat

    Don Brash is signalling he may stand in an electorate seat after previously playing down the prospect.

    Dr Brash told TVNZ’s Close Up last night he had not yet decided where to stand. Epsom is one possibility though Dr Brash has previously suggested former Auckland mayor John Banks was his first choice there and repeated that this week. Mr Banks also stated his desire to stand there.

    The other possibility is Tamaki, though ACT deputy John Boscawen has already been confirmed as the party’s candidate.

    Mr Banks looked like a shoo-in for the Epsom nomination after Dr Brash ousted former party leader Rodney Hide last week.

    But Prime Minister John Key created uncertainty on Tuesday after responding to questions about Epsom by saying: “I wouldn’t be so sure John Banks is going to run in that seat.”

    Maybe the new Act are listening to all the negative feedback about Banks. It’s hard to know how a Brash electorate campaign would work out though.

    Brash also repeated last night his confidence that Epsom was a dead cert for Act.

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  106. pq (728 comments) says:

    Strength to New Zealand,
    let us prosper,
    stand in Epsom Brash

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  107. pq (728 comments) says:

    Strength to New Zealand,
    let us prosper,
    stand in Epsom Brash,
    win,
    change New Zealand for the better,
    help us to become prosperous agian

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  108. hj (6,330 comments) says:

    David Garret Says:
    Don needs to be able to rebut Hone’s arguments – in different ways depending on the audience – and the first step in that process is a thorough and clear understanding of treaty jurisprudence since the late 19th century.
    ….
    It wouldn’t hurt (make that would do a great service) to make people aware where the Maori Party, Greens and Hone are coming from. They like to hide behind language such as:

    Both Labour and National have abused parliamentary sovereignty to marginalize Maori for some time and the seabed and foreshore legislation is a good example where the rights of due legal process have been denied to a particular group of people. The National led government have been particularly skilled at giving the appearance of recognizing the rights of Maori while ensuring that they maintain the upper hand. In affirming the United Nations’ Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, the government was quick to reassure the country that it would have no affect on our laws and stated so in the house:
    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/

    Whereas as Chris Trotter puts it:
    The Maori Party, the ACT Party, and (to their shame) the Greens, in calling for the act’s repeal, are, in reality, calling for the privatisation of large parts of the New Zealand coastline.

    Should Mr Key’s latest outreach to some of the most strident advocates of Maori nationalism, therefore, be read as a coded signal to their supporters that National is now ready to join them in privatising the foreshore and seabed?

    If this is, indeed, National’s intention, Mr Key’s new-found allies from the Maori nationalist movement have pulled off an extraordinary political coup.

    By convincing the National Party leader that the foreshore and seabed issue is nothing more than a dispute over property law, they have opened the way to a much more radical application of indigenous rights.

    For who can dispute that, at one time, the entire geographical entity we call New Zealand was the property of Maori collectivities?

    And, if they have a customary right to New Zealand’s beaches, then why not its rivers, estuaries, swamps, lakes, forests and everything else?

    I suspect National Party voters see things a little differently.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/opinion/258693

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  109. mickysmuses (7 comments) says:

    Hone Harawira is the very ugly face of racist politics in NZ. Interesting that he is teamed with lefties, when he’s such a fascist. Although Hitler got along quite well with Stalin for a while didn’t he…

    Brash did very very well the other night. He engaged Hone in a way that discomforted him – Hone could have done better if he’d been allowed to wear his shades, he would then have turned to face Brash, but without the disguise he simply couldn’t do it.

    I think the point must be made over and over that Hone doesn’t speak for all Maori, in fact if Hone becomes more popular, more and more Maori will leave for Australia.

    Fix the economy, and equality for all citizens – doesn’t sound too radical to me.

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  110. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    As I said awhile ago , Brash and debate in the same sentence? At least all the hopefuls saw clearly how hopeless he is.

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