Oh dear
January 20th, 2013 at 10:00 am by David FarrarKirsty Johnston at Stuff reports:
Crime will rise if gay couples are allowed to marry, says the head of the country’s victim lobby group.
Sensible Sentencing Trust leader Garth McVicar has submitted to Parliament that changing the law to allow same-sex marriage will be yet another erosion of basic morals and values in society which have led to an escalation of child abuse, domestic violence, and an ever-increasing prison population.
Oh dear. Garth is quite entitled to his views on the issue, but linking same sex marriage to child abuse, domestic violence and increasing prison numbers is bizarre – to put it mildly.
People claimed the same thing in 1986 when homosexual law reform occurred. They were wrong. I predict that once same sex marriage is allowed, the only impact on society will be a few more couples will be married.
January 20th, 2013 at 10:05 am
Modern day fire and brimstone from the Garths and Andres, but their credibility is fizzling and leaking rather than burning and brimming.
@KevinHague
Most against the Bill seem to be hankering for a Truman Show version of NZ: conformist, God-fearing nuclear families
@PeteDGeorge
They think that marriage equality will destroy everyone’s morals, like, if you get married I’ll rob a bank.
@KevinHague
Vote:yes. “#marriageequality then nek minnit sack of Rome” is one of the most common arguments being used by opponents
January 20th, 2013 at 10:05 am
Quite.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:07 am
Yeah, That doesn’t equate though I’m opposed to it out of my beliefs. Fearist creations or is it attention generation?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:08 am
I had a good laugh at this one today.
Only goes to show what Garth actually knows about crime and it’s causes.
With that comment he managed both to hurt his cause (by revealing his incompetence) and the same time support the gay marriage bill (by adding another nutty argument against it.)
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:09 am
Gareth Mcvicar is a stupid idiot. He has not got a damn clue what the drivers’ of crime are. Most criminals come from dysfunctional straight families in far nearly all. Mcvicar should focus his tiny ignorant mind on that.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:17 am
It’s probably been done before but I saw on Twitter someone referring to him as MadVicar.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:40 am
Just an idiot.
Victims need advocates but sensible ones, someone who has a clue, not someone who has parlayed a family tragedy into this quasi -religious band of clowns spouting this type of shit.
That type of comment is about two inches from Salem. FFS
Time for McVicar to stop wasting oxygen.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:43 am
The sodomites are going to destroy all that is decent and good. Poor old Garth needs to understand that gays have always been around and are not a recent invention of lefty liberals or of modern society.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:50 am
I have a lot of time for McVicar. The more the criminal huggers of the left attacked him the more I knew he was on the right track. Those who talk about the “drivers of crime” are the very people that McVicar needs to keep fighting, I have no time at all for those who seek to down play crime and criminals, the only ones who suffer when that argument is in vogue are the victims of crime.
However, McVicar has made a big mistake by spouting this rubbish, he has bloody well shot himself in the foot and done enormous damage to his campaign to get tough on criminals.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:54 am
Seriously….
I guess he is a classic conservative bigot, willing to tell any lie to get NZ closer to his straight, white, church attending ideal.
Interesting though, all criminals are produced by a man and a women…
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:56 am
Garth McVicar may be right
But just not in the way he thinks.
Yes, it is most likely that the undermining of marriage and the traditional family unit does engender a portion of crime –
The UK has just two-thirds of children living with both parents, one of the lowest rates in the western world, according to research by a global development organisation.
Only in Belgium, Latvia and Estonia are children less likely to live in a household with both their father and mother.
– http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/dec/29/two-thirds-british-children-live-parents
What is the ration in New Zealand – two parent homes to one parent, or marriage inequality?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:03 am
questions (87) Says:
January 20th, 2013 at 10:54 am
Seriously….
I guess he is a classic conservative bigot, willing to tell any lie to get NZ closer to his straight, white, church attending ideal.
Interesting though, all criminals are produced by a man and a women…
—————————–
Correct.
Was gay marriage responsible for McVicar’s friend who stole a dead baby’s name and used it on a passport?
McVicar is wanting the job of chief Witch Sniffer.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:14 am
Judith – Was gay marriage responsible for McVicar’s friend who stole a dead baby’s name and used it on a passport?
Not likely, because that person is not yet gayly married, is he?
Vote:Might be civilly unified
January 20th, 2013 at 11:28 am
Who’s to say he is wrong?
Vote:Gay marriages are definitely not constructive when it comes to stability of the family unit, which is the building block of society as we know it. If young people don’t have a grounded, stable family life, then expect to see more of them going off the rails.
January 20th, 2013 at 11:31 am
W.T.F.
The majority of NZers feel that criminals get away with too much in this country, but McVicar makes himself seem like a crazy idiot by blaming it on gay marriage.
If we had more gays we’d have fewer straight men willing to stick it into any pair of open legs and create another baby to be abused and grow up as a criminal.
If anything, we need to encourage more youth who are unlucky enough to be born into a criminal family to be exclusively homosexual – as apparently that’s possible.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:32 am
And the evidence is…?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:36 am
I smell propaganda here. I’d like to read what he said in full. While it’s hard for those who don’t understand social engineering to accept, gay marriage is merely another plank in the long running plan to corrupt western society. You can pooh pooh it if you like, but have a look at our society over the decades and tell me the following trends haven’t been appearing.
Just google ‘Frankfurt School’ if you want more detail.
Of course if you’ve fallen for the ‘human wights’ argument on gay marriage then nothing will save you from becoming one of Stalin’s useful idiots for this particular project in their long-running boil the frog campaign.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:41 am
http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/C375983B-427D-4882-868B-850D3723472A/257535/50SCGA_EVI_00DBHOH_BILL11528_1_A305110_GarthMcVica.pdf
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:44 am
An article in New York Times confirmed what has long been been denied or evaded by liberals, namely that many same-sex relationships whether formalized by marriage ceremonies, civil partnerships, or commitment ceremonies are “open”. According to a Gay Couples Study conducted by the University of San Francisco, they traced 556 male couples for three years and discovered that 50% had sexual liaisons outside their relationships, WITH THE FULL KNOWLEDGE AND CONSENT OF THEIR PARTNERS ! As time passed the number of faithful couples declined, as homosexual propagandists Kirk & Masden admitted that for gay men, the cheating ratio eventually reaches 100% over time.
Another study of 156 male couples found that after 5 years all of the couples “had incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationship. Even a study conducted by the NZ Aids Foundation revealed that a whopping 77% of male homosexuals were gorging themselves on other partners within six month of the “committed” relationship beginning. This explains why 60% of all new syphilis and gonorrhea cases are male homosexuals, and if you removed bisexual males and intravenous drug users out of the equation, HIV would be pretty much solely a homosexual problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=0
http://www.nzaf.org.nz/voices/view/latest-gapps-report
These people have no intention of honouring any of the traditional marriage covenants – namely monogamy. So now, genuine marriages need to be debased to include GLBT or any veritable alphabet soup of sexual deviancy so that a small clique of perverts can exercise their so-called “rights” rendering the institution of marriage to be about as worthless as an NCEA qualification in the process.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:53 am
Urban Redneck, well said.
There was an article in the NZ Herald about this also –
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10830082
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:57 am
Become a divorce lawyer for gays – could be a nice little opening
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:04 pm
Just as well all the traditional male/female partnerships in matrimony can set a good example of genuine monogamy. As soon as we have marriage equality a new immorality will arise. I’ll be in first to coin a phrase for it – unfaithfullness.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:07 pm
“Who’s to say he is wrong? Gay marriages are definitely not constructive when it comes to stability of the family unit, which is the building block of society as we know it. If young people don’t have a grounded, stable family life, then expect to see more of them going off the rails.”
Er, Fletch, you do realise that “gay” means “homosexual”? There won’t be any children in a gay marriage.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:13 pm
I see Pete George is braying like a donkey again.
Foolishness beyond belief on display.
Of course because gay “marriage” is nonsense without a single rational argument to support its introduction beyond a vague appeal to a supposed “right” to get married, those who are in favour of this abomination mock distorted versions of arguments put forward in good faith to explain why this is a very very bad idea.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:20 pm
Andrei,
The argument for gay marriage is that the state may not discriminate.
That is a rational argument.
If you think that the state should be allowed to discriminate then you can have no objection when it does so on the grounds of race. You cannot complain about council seats reserved for Maori, for example.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:21 pm
Thank you Fletch. Interestingly enough, in Spain only 22,124 homosexual “marriages” have taken place since the government changed the law to provide for homosexuals in 2005, according to media surveys. If one assumes that every marriage involved a unique couple, and that 3.5 percent of the population is homosexual (a standard figure produced by peer-reviewed studies on the topic) then less than 3% of Spain’s homosexuals have availed themselves of “marriage” during the seven years of its availability.
In Holland, according to a study by the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy (iMAPP), after ten years of homosexual “marriage” in the Netherlands, only eight percent of homosexuals were “married” in 2011. Long standing monogamous unions are the last thing these pansexuals want.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/most-homosexuals-dont-want-to-marry-or-adopt-french-homosexual-leader-admit
And as for that “3 – 4 % of the population are born-that-way homosexuals orthodoxy, a 1994 British study called “Sexual Behaviour In Britain” conducted by researchers Wellings, Field, Johnson & Wadsworth which interviewed 20000 men and 20000 women and created a demographic model of the country found that core homosexuality was limited to 0.6% in men and a staggeringly low 0.1% in women. In fact, over eighty percent of respondents claiming to be gay, the study found, are actually just uninhibited bisexuals when push comes to shove. Further to that, I struggle to conjure up what rights bisexuals are being denied. Do they want the right to marry a man and a woman at the same time?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:28 pm
It is not discrimination to reserve marriage to hetrosexual couples consisting of one man and one woman because marriage is a union of one man and one woman.
And those who wish to marry cannot marry just anyone of the opposite sex either, there are qualifying criteria as to whom you may marry.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Possibly the weakest argument ever. Pick another. Or explain your support for the removal of discrimination that prevents me from marrying my cat, or my mother, or both.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:33 pm
For fuck’s sake. It is this clown that the ACT party sold its soul for.
What a waste.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:40 pm
Like Oedipussy
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:45 pm
wat, sure there will – gays adopt. Elton John as his partner just ‘had’ their second baby.
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/gossip/la-et-mg-elton-john-baby-son-david-furnish-20130116,0,1582863.story
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:45 pm
“It is not discrimination to reserve marriage to hetrosexual couples consisting of one man and one woman because marriage is a union of one man and one woman.”
A circular argument if ever there was one. You could just as well say “a marriage is a union of one man and one woman of the same race.” And in many cultures of course a marriage contains more than two people.
By all means religious cults may discriminate in whatever ways they choose.
But the state may not.
You can argue that the state has no business ratifying people’s domestic arrangements, but what you can’t do is argue that it can approve and favour just the particular arrangement that you happen to support.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:49 pm
Halden, Norway’s second largest prison, with a capacity of 252 inmates, opened on April 8. It embodies the guiding principles of the country’s penal system: that repressive prisons do not work and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society. “When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape,” Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, murderers and rapists, among others. “We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people.” Countries track recidivism rates differently, but even an imperfect comparison suggests the Norwegian model works. Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway’s prisoners end up back in jail. In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%. Of course, a low level of criminality gives Norway a massive advantage. Its prison roll lists a mere 3,300, or 69 per 100,000 people, compared with 2.3 million in the U.S., or 753 per 100,000 — the highest rate in the world.
Or maybe Garth has more than one dumb idea…
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:52 pm
It is not a circular argument, I am discriminated against by the Government because they wont let me earn my living as a brain surgeon, and I think they should change the rules arond who is allowed to practice brain surgery because it is my right to earn my living as a brain surgeon, its discrimination I tell you!!!!
FFS You cannot call a loaf of bread a porterhouse steak which is what you are doing when you asy two men are married to each other.
And there is a profound reason why a male couple or a female couple are not equivalent to a male, female pairing, a reason that goes to the very heart of who we will be as a people thirty years from now
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:53 pm
Oh poor child… Access to unlimited funds… Access to some of the worlds most influential people… Life is so tough.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:55 pm
I was part of the debate amongst NZ journalists which so upset Karl du Fresne recently, as he accused some people of intolerance for wanting to “silence” McVicar.
I don’t believe anybody should be silenced. But I do believe that when his views are reported alongside those of Kim Workman, the latter’s history of nearly 20 years in the police and as Assistant Secretary (Penal Institutions) with the Department of Justice, his fellowships (two Churchills), scholarship (to Stanford) and other relevant items should be mantioned, as should McVicar’s – embittered cow cocky with no professional experience or qualifications in justice or penology.
The media’s lazy habit of trotting out McVicar as though his opinions are as expert as those of Workman, and other professionals in the field, constantly misleads the public as to the basis on which they’re formed. He knows less about the subject than several people who comment here (and whom I generally disagree with, but acknowledge they have the experience that guides their opinions) and the public need to be reminded of that when being fed his bizarre rants.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:57 pm
Andrei,
Oh dear. That’s a pretty dumb analogy. An unqualified brain surgeon may do harm to others. That homosexuals will call themselves married will not affect you in the slightest.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 12:59 pm
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html
Forgot the link re Norway prison system
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:09 pm
Urban Redneck, according to research it is the gay dirty little secret – that not many people are truly solely homosexual.
Indeed.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:11 pm
The submission was in a personal capacity only, and does not say what Farrar says it says. McVicar was pointing out that degrading marriage as an institution has negative consequences. The bulk of criminals come from broken homes. It’s his belief that the bill does that. I’m not quite sure I share his views on that (I oppose it for different reasons), but it’s a valid point of view, and a sensible one in my opinion. It is neither bigoted, nor homophobic.
There are reasons to disagree with McVicar. I don’t think having the government redefine marriage is going to make it morally easier for straight couples to break up. Most people already treat marriage too lightly – they don’t need gay marriages to help that along. I’m not quite sure how to connect his logic there. But I do think that he has a point in a general sense about how society treats marriage. His conclusions are wrong but his take on the problem is correct. Commentators should cut him a break, especially on the right where there is no reason to get on the left’s bandwagon of demagoguery and demonization.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:14 pm
Fletch,
“wat, sure there will – gays adopt”
Adoption and marriage are separate issues. Do you have a substantive objection to gay marriage?
krazy,
“Possibly the weakest argument ever. Pick another. Or explain your support for the removal of discrimination that prevents me from marrying my cat, or my mother, or both.”
Non-discrimination is the weakest argument ever? Blimey. At least you are honest in admitting that your “argument” simply consists of you wanting the state to enforce your personal prejudices.
You’d have no real argument then if the gay mafia wins the election and allows only gay marriages. After all, you are not arguing from principle.
And by the same argument, allowing inter-racial marriages could also lead to people marrying their mothers and their cats couldn’t it. Because, er…
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:16 pm
The gays have quite a bit of ground to catch up in destroying the family unit and humanity as we know it – or ‘destroying the very “essence of the human creature” ‘ as the Pope describes it.
New Zealand has the third-highest rate of children living in single-parent homes, an OECD study says.
This means nearly one in four Kiwi children are growing up in single-parent homes as more marriages break up and single women choose to enter motherhood on their own.
Of 27 industrialised countries, New Zealand ranked third in the Doing Better for Families study, with 23.7 per cent of children living in a one-parent household, compared with the 14.9 per cent average across all countries. The United States ranked first with 25.9 per cent and Ireland was second with 24.3 per cent.
– http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4945358/One-child-in-four-in-single-parent-home
According to New Zealand census statistics, there has been a 20% increase in the number of one-parent families in the past 10 years.
Vote:– http://www.kiwifamilies.co.nz/articles/birthright/
January 20th, 2013 at 1:17 pm
That well known objective observer of sexuality.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:22 pm
blairM
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:25 pm
The bulk of criminals come from broken homes
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
Recognised, but a very very strange coincidence, don’t you think? Can’t be anything in it, surely? The Left keep telling us it takes a village to raise a child, so shouldn’t matter?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:25 pm
Andrei,
“I am discriminated against by the Government because they wont let me earn my living as a brain surgeon”
If it’s true that the government prevents you, on discriminatory grounds, from learning to be a brain surgeon then that is indeed awful. But I would have though that that would have made you realise the evil consequence of allowing the state to discriminate.
“FFS You cannot call a loaf of bread a porterhouse steak which is what you are doing when you asy two men are married to each other.”
A loaf of bread is not a porterhouse steak, it’s true.
But couples making the same commitment to each other are the same, regardless of what’s in their trousers. So your analogy falls to the ground.
Vote:More to the point, gay people don’t require your consent or your blessing for their marriages; any more than your own marriage (assuming for the sake of argument that you are married) requires theirs.
January 20th, 2013 at 1:25 pm
Weihana, this from a man raised by two mothers –
http://www.c-fam.org/fridayfax/volume-15/french-homosexuals-join-demonstration-against-gay-marriage.html
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:26 pm
Oh well another thread fucked
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:26 pm
More to the point, gay people don’t require your consent or your blessing for their marriages; any more than your own marriage (assuming for the sake of argument that you are married) requires theirs.
Then why do they need a certificate from the government to validate it?!
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:27 pm
BlairM
A fucking car needs a certificate, why can’t a couple of humans?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:33 pm
And this is the news article about the study cited in my last post –
The study itself is HERE
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:34 pm
So we might see the Blind Knight syndrome then?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:38 pm
SO yeh, let’s all just adopt gay marriage and discount all the studies that show how bad it is for children; they don’t really matter, just the sexual satisfaction of adults who more by choice (it is looking like) choose their sexual partners.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:39 pm
“A fucking car needs a certificate, why can’t a couple of humans?”
Is it because one’s a potentially dangerous machine driven on public roads and the others are free human beings?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:39 pm
Fletch, why do you hate homosexuals so much?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:40 pm
A fucking car needs a certificate, why can’t a couple of humans?
But a bicycle is not a car. You may like your bicycle and feel like your bicycle is important enough to have a certificate, or a WOF, or whatever you feel it needs to improve your self esteem and validate your life choice to ride a bicycle instead of drive a car, but it’s still a freaking bicycle, not a car.
People say that it doesn’t matter, and maybe it doesn’t. Let them call a bicycle a car. Fair enough. But why should the government humour that, when I don’t believe a bicycle is a car? Is my view – that a bicycle is not a car – not equally or of greater merit than those who say they are equivalent? Should the government make a moral choice by changing the definition of a bicycle? I would argue no.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:52 pm
Rodders, i don’t hate homosexuals AT ALL. What makes you think that?
I am standing up for traditional marriage, which I believe is best for society, especially the health and well being of children.
I don’t mind what homosexuals do in their own time. I work with a couple who are very good people. But I won’t stand idly by and watch society’s laws changed to accommodate relationships based on sexual perversions; especially the institution of marriage, which is a critical building block of family and society.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:54 pm
I presume you are the “Fletcher” who posted this?
http://nzconservative.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/mental-health-and-same-sex-marriage.html
If not, I apologise.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 1:58 pm
Rodders, yes I am; and your point?
I have statistics there taken from the gays own Human Rights Complaint to the Canadian Government. Their own statistics.
I like to back up what I say.
And so? How does that make me a “hater”?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 2:00 pm
Logic fail, wat dabney
Every unmarried adult male who wishes to enter into matrimony may do so provided he can find an unrelated, unmarried adult female who agrees to join in this estate with him and likewise with every unmarried adult female provided she can find an appropriate male.
People who are poor, deformed and/or ugly are at a disadvantage but not excluded.
People who for whatever reason prefer to engage in sexual activity with members of their own gender are only excluded if they cannot or will not conform to what marriage is – the union of a man and a woman
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 2:08 pm
Fletch-
and
but on the other hand
and
People can draw their own conclusions.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 2:17 pm
Rodders, you might not think so, but I consider sodomy a sexual perversion.
Vote:And I’ve already pointed out the effects of this lifestyle – increased depression; drug, alcohol, smoking use; suicide; disease; shortened lifespan. I am wrong not to want our children subjected to these results of the gay lifestyle?
January 20th, 2013 at 2:20 pm
Fletch -
So you are more comfortable for lesbians to marry one another, then?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 2:22 pm
And the rebuttal to Regnerus is here…
Karen Golinski versus US Parent Office of Personnel Management, John Berry and Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group of the US House of Representatives: Amicus Curiae Criticism of Same-Sex Parenting and Regnerus Study: http://tinyurl.com/7g55hzt
And as for McVicar’s weird claims about marriage equality and violent crime, is it Paul Cameron that he’s channelling?
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron.html
I think the statement of Auckland University’s Dr James Oleson on stuff.co.nz is quite an appropriate rebuttal for this ludicrous statement:
“Criminologist Dr James Oleson, from Auckland University, an expert in deviance, said he was not familiar with any research that would suggest homosexuals would be responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime.
For McVicar’s argument to be plausible, he said, it would have to be proved that allowing homosexuals to marry degraded morality, and that this produced more crime. “But I’m not sure that’s true.”
The more common drivers of crime were economic issues, alcohol, drugs, education and employment and family dysfunction, Oleson said.”
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 2:32 pm
That is McVicar’s complete submission. Thanks for the link Rodders. I’m sorry but I don’t see the story as reported in Stuff is valid. It’s a total spin. It is propaganda. And all the braying idiots who think it’s about human wights immediately fall for it. You idiots. Duh.
Tell me I’m wrong. Tell me how the fuck this idiot Kirsty could possibly read into that submission the angle she took and heavily cultivated by her reporting. And BTW, what the fuck else was Hague ever going to say so why include that to strengthen the “evidence?” What sort of moronic, stupid thinking is that, Kirsty? You’re not blond are you?
DPF’s conclusion is common however it’s based on thinking for the next ten or so years, and that’s the wrong period of time. This is a deep social engineering manoeuvre designed to take place over generations. It deals with the most ancient institution we have. It is the basis of our reproductive partnerships that is being addressed with this manoeuvre. And that doesn’t change in ten years, does it. No. They’re aiming in my view at least three generations from now. First generation over the next 25 years of so beds into the fabric, second generation 50 or so years from now grows up in it, third generation have parents who grew up in it.
And it’s your grandchildren at stake here.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 2:35 pm
Andrei,
“Logic fail, wat dabney. Every unmarried adult male who wishes to enter into matrimony may do so provided he can find an unrelated, unmarried adult female who agrees to join in this estate with him and likewise with every unmarried adult female provided she can find an appropriate male.”
Again, all you are doing is describing the existing descriminatory state definition of marriage.
You’re kind of making my point.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 2:47 pm
Proof that you are dumb
♂ + ♀ ≠ ♂ + ♂
♂ + ♀ ≠ ♀ + ♀
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 2:49 pm
If this man is allowed to marry then I don’t see why gay people can’t:
Vote:
January 20th, 2013 at 2:59 pm
If this man is allowed to marry then I don’t see why gay people can’t:
Gay people can wat. Der. It’s called a civil union. What about this simple fact is hard for you people to get through your heads? This fact, this thing that exists, it really does, is why, der, there are no “rights” that are being infringed.
You’da thunk wouldn’t ya that this simple reality would have penetrated some skulls by now but no, the idiocy goes marching on, unabated.
It’s about human wights you see they plaintively bray and bray and bray as if hoping the more braying they do will change the logical futility of their position. That is, there are no rights being infringed anywhere and there never has been since that civil union bill was passed. That took away the discrimination, they said so at the time, so fine. But no they said a decade or so later, there’s still some discwimination and it’s tewwibly dweadful in evewy way. And the people turned and listened, and started braying and braying and braying, at something that doesn’t exist and never has.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Urban Redneck:
“These people have no intention of honouring any of the traditional marriage covenants – namely monogamy. So now, genuine marriages need to be debased to include GLBT or any veritable alphabet soup of sexual deviancy so that a small clique of perverts can exercise their so-called “rights” rendering the institution of marriage to be about as worthless as an NCEA qualification in the process.”
Monogamy? What proportion of straight married men are monogamous? And don’t kid yourself, it’s a huge proportion. I know it is because in my 48 years I’ve had many “straight”/married men make a pass on me, and I’m gay. (I respect marriage, I always say no and on more than one occasion I’ve told the guy to go home and respect his wife. By your definition any non-monagomous relationship is not genuine, but remember this includes natural marriages.
Take a wider perspective. The debate over gay marriage is occuring because the very concept of marriage as a societal institution is not what it should be. The concept of monogamy is no longer respected, porn is everywhere, divorce is common.
I’m gay, I don’t believe in gay marriage with one exception, this being when children are present from past relationships, in which case I think gays and lesbians should get married – and commit to monogamy. Apart from that, I think the idea of gay marriage is ridiculous – ultimately because marriage should be mainly between 2 people who can naturally procreate. Civil ceremonies are just as good for the purpose.
I am also a Christian, and I ask a couple of questions. To explain: it is one of the 10 Commandments that adultery should not be committed. Adultery is defined repeatedly and explicitly in the Bible as occuring when a man looks at a woman not his wife with lust in his heart. I note, homosexuality is not defineded in such definitive terms. Again explicitely and repeatedly, the Bible states that if adultery has been committed, the man concerned should sever his right hand and blind his right eye.
My question is, where are all the clinics in our neighbourhoods? Get-rich-quick scheme, set up a franchise deal, little clinics cutting off hands and striking out eyes. Wow, a society in which not only gays are punished for their sexuality and sexual habits, but straight men as well.
What about it straight men? Ready to stop heading behind your veil of hypocrisy?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 3:36 pm
howdarethey you make an interesting point about porn, which is ubiquitous. All part of the corrupting influences we live with courtesy of the lovely Travistock people.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 3:48 pm
Reid you’ll know the stats. The amount of money men spend on porn online, and the way we men’s brains are structured, we always want an escalation in what we watch. No longer happy with one on one, onto groups, other situations. Over time, porn generally has become far more explicit, extreme.
The big way to deal with the situation with marriage is for men to front up, realise there is a virtue in seeing life through with only one partner.
Fletch, you idiot. Sexual perversion? Straight anal sex is everywhere, indeed some of the specialist sites are the most popular internet sites.
What is perverse is when two people couple for sex without any long term commitment. I hope you know the feeling of making love, not just having sex. If so, I am sure as a human you can never see it in yourself to deny others the potential to feel the same as you.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 3:51 pm
ps to previous note.
All information relating to knowledge of internet porn is of course from third parties, not from personal internet usage.
Thanks
HowDareThey
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 4:02 pm
I totally agree with Garth McVicar and disagree with DPF who sadly has been all for gay marriage for a number of years now. What we are seeing is the demolition of society based on Christian values and it’s replacement with old age paganism. We appear to be returning to the value system of ancient Greece.
Vote:Marriage is a basic building block of our social order and is the setting in which children are socialised and the next generation of responsible citizens are nurtured. Single parenting, living together and no fault divorce has weakened marriage already. Gay marriage, an abomination against God, can only weaken it still further.
A Christian or a conservative can see that families are falling apart. In many school classrooms the number of children being raised by their married biological parents is a minority. Single parenting leads to more crime. Fatherless families feature heavily in crime statistics. The majority of incarcerated criminals come from fatherless families. So McVicar is absolutely correct. DPF who is a brilliant policy wonk but hopeless on marriage and helplessly in thrall to the gay lobby is once again shown to be a left wing progressive who for the sake of the soul of conservatism should out himself and join the Labour party, which is his true home.
January 20th, 2013 at 4:09 pm
So the point of the post, which was about the alleged link between gay marriage and crime becomes a tired re-working of the debate on gay marriage. What a pity. I shall persevere regardless, and those who wish to attack/defend teh gayz and/or the institution of marriage can just scroll by…
BlairM suggests:
And therein his first piece of lunacy. A man “marrying” a man (or a woman marrying a woman or indeed a man marrying his blow-up doll or his cat) does not break a single home, other than in the tiny percentage of cases where a male or female in an existing relationship, who have had children, announces that they have been suppressing their homosexuality and they are leaving the marriage (or civil partnership or de facto relationship) to go live with a person of the same sex. Certainly that happens, but it’s not the case with the bulk of homosexual relationships by any means.
Homosexual couples adopting children is a separate issue. And since, for whatever reason, the children being adopted do not have a stable family unit which is capable of caring for them, their home is already “broken”. I’d like to see more research (not anecdote as quoted above) of the effects on children brought up in same sex households compared against those raised in a succession of foster homes and orphanages, but I’d imagine any stable, supportive family unit probably has better outcomes than a life where no one other than the state is your dad and mum.
Like all McVicar’s views it is bigotry because it is informed only by his view of what is right and wrong and not by any evidence. It is a three paragraph expression of opinion, unsupported by any fact and contrary to at least some established research. It is, in short, a mirror of his bigotry on crime and punishment.
And no, I’m not saying that because I disagree with him. I disagree with David Garrett too, but as I’ve said repeatedly on here I can at least debate him on the facts; often I can point to reesarch he hasn’t read, but I’ve found he usually then looks at it even if he doesn’t agree with its conclusions; he has also pointed me to research I haven’tr read, and I can see how its conclusions would support some of the stances he’s taken. I still believe he’s profoundly wrong on most of it, but he’s got there by a process of thinking, not bigotry and emotion like McVicar.
Actually, I’d have thought commenters on the right would want their “side” represented by a conservative with equivalent education and experience to Kim Workman, not an ill-educated bigoted buffoon who ensures the stance they’d no doubt like promoted can be ridiculed so easily because it’s presentation is not backed by any research and is so obviously the result of emotion, malevolence and ignorance.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 4:13 pm
Fletch:And I’ve already pointed out the effects of this lifestyle – increased depression; drug, alcohol, smoking use; suicide; disease; shortened lifespan.
The distinction between causation and correlation still passing you by.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 4:13 pm
Agree Scott, mostly. Not sure about the abomination against God comment. Please reference a previous msg from me and argue why you aren’t being hypocritical in believing that gays should be judged against by people like yourself while you ignore your own responsibilities – namely the removal of your right hand and right eye for committing adultery.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 4:14 pm
I’m more worried about the values of modern Greece than the values of ancient Greece. The Left seem to think buggery is more important than balancing the budget.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 4:39 pm
Rex,
Given the reference to Kim Workman is related to crime and punishment/rehabilitation, “their “side”" is equally represented by one David Garrett – particularly when it comes to rebutting Workman’s ideas and practises. By your own admission, he would not be categorised as a “bigoted buffoon”
As for this particular submission of McVicar’s, the adage as to being thought a fool and actually proving it springs to mind.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 4:41 pm
Scott, Why do you assume “christian values” are superior to all others ?
No one is asking you to compromise your values or beliefs. No one is asking you to approve of gays getting married. No one is suggesting your rights should be diminished in anyway. You believe in your christian values and good on you. This is about others being able to choose their beliefs and lifestyle. It is not an attack on christian values.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 5:04 pm
Kea – It is not an attack on christian values.
Indeed, one clould consider it is the other way around …
Pope Benedict Takes Anti-Gay Marriage To New Level In Christmas Speech On Family Values
VATICAN CITY — The pope pressed his opposition to gay marriage Friday, denouncing what he described as people eschewing their God-given gender identities to suit their sexual choices – and destroying the very “essence of the human creature” in the process.
____________
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that all nuns are mystically betrothed to Jesus Christ. In this actual marriage ceremony a young woman dressed in white, makes a public vow to the Church. After this public profession, the young woman is told that she has become the bride of Christ and must consecrate herself to God “until death”. In this the Catholic Church is offering to the young woman a substitute for marriage to a real man.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 5:05 pm
Don’t silence McVicar. The man is a total idiot. He has not one damn clue what the drivers of crime are. But he is dealing with a serious issue. But he has nothing intelligent to say about it when he says gay marriage will lead to an increase in crime.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 5:19 pm
Another fool being led by the nose Sophia?
I can almost guarantee that you haven’t read what the Pope actually said and being gulliable you are prepared to accept drivel from the internet and news accounts as being an accurate representation of what he said.
If I ever had any doubts that my feelings on “gay marriage” being wrong the one thing that dispells that is the lies being told by those who support it and the deceit involved.
We all know who the Prince of lies is don’t we?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 5:21 pm
Rex Widerstrom (4,888) Says:
January 20th, 2013 at 4:09 pm
Great post
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 5:58 pm
Reid,
“Gay people can wat. Der. It’s called a civil union. What about this simple fact is hard for you people to get through your heads? ”
So you have no objection to gay people being allowed to officially marry, since they already can in all but name.
I’m glad we got that cleared up.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 5:59 pm
Andrei is right. The Pope’s comments, while referencing man and sexuality, were in no way directly attacking gays – he made no reference to gay marriage. You would do well to read the speech before condemning it.
Here is what he said:
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:03 pm
bhudson says:
Granted I don’t see and hear all NZ media but I consume a great deal of it online. And it seems the media have decided that Mr Garrett’s ancient bit of youthful reckless stupidity (and who hasn’t indulged in that, in one form or another, and just never stepped over the law or else not been caught?) is sufficient to condemn him to Coventry forevermore.
Instead, McVicar is wheeled out to hover like a vulture over the victims whose raw grief he manipulates and then keeps re-wounding them (rather than practising restorative justice to the benefit of all concerned, as superbly illustrated by another of DPF’s posts today) to provide the media with emotion-laden soundbites.
If someone running any other lobby group authored such a document the media would ignore them, especially when there are others, as we agree, more erudite and educated on the topic with broadly similar views. But I guarantee you they will not.
Given that I’ve seen the media running op-eds supposedly authored by McVicar, I now have to ask just how much of it they write for him and how much polishing they have to do. Because in just 146 words of a submission to Parliament (which you’d assume you’d take a bit of care over) I find:
Vote:- “ammedment” x 2
- “has ben founded on” (which makes my eyes bleed with its wrongness)
- “abilty”
- “detremetal”
and “esential”.
January 20th, 2013 at 6:07 pm
Ah Rex, but I think you’ll find Monsiuer Garrett in the background there somewhere, feeding the lines which are, perhaps, fluffed by a poor actor. Perhaps he needs to insert himself a little more into the process – think ventriloquist and hand [metaphorically only, of course]
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:11 pm
I doubt the Pope is anti gay. After all, he is the head of the worlds largest and oldest homosexual pedophile ring.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:20 pm
Kea, so much wrong with that statement, but good to see you recognize the “homosexual” component in what constitutes your “pedophile ring”. That it largely isn’t the straight men who have the problem in that regard.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:25 pm
fletch,
And where was his father and how is that the fault of his mother? Maybe this idiot could be a little bit grateful that someone raised him. If he had a genuine complaint that would be something. But all he has is that his two parents weren’t ideal in his eyes. Well what parents are perfect? Never mind they wiped his ass, never mind they put food on his plate, never mind they put a roof over his head. This all means nothing cause he has daddy issues. Prick.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:28 pm
Fletch, you do realise the proposal being discussed here is not about allowing priests to marry?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:29 pm
@bhudson
If you’re right, and all the evidence suggests you are, then that doesn’t leave a very flattering impression of Mr Garrett,as it suggests he lacks the courage to make some of these sorts of statements himself. I do hope that’s not true, as aside from anything else it means I’ve been fooled into crediting him for a level of reasonableness he doesn’t truly possess.
But if that submission is the raw, uncoached McVicar (which it clearly is) then I reiterate: how much leeway have the media given him?!
“Alright, take 27… I’m sorry, but if you could just keep sobbing please Mrs Jones, that’s it. And Garth, try to remember it’s detrimental, not metal, okay? Rolling…”
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Garth is, of course, a media creation and as such will eventually fall out of tune with the times. The ‘Sensible’ Sentencing Trust has had its day and attention can move away from policies pandering to fear and emphasising retribution towards policies based on facts and encouraging restoration.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Weihana
Although I too reject many of Fletch’s views, I do agree with the views he quoted from the guy who missed having a Dad growing up. My own parents divorced early in my life and my paternal relationship became distant, I suggest to my long term detriment.
I do think that gay people raising children should make especial efforts to ensure there is a positive and long term role model of the opposite sex to the couple who is present in the life of the child/ren. It seems to me that most balanced (definitely not all) adults have been raised by males and females working together to instill values.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:55 pm
Still. Lesbianism, eh? Whoar.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 6:59 pm
Fletch,
Absolutely. Our nature, our genetic code, was programmed by millions of years of evolution and molded for a prehistoric man. A man who didn’t know where his next meal might come from so his body stores fat. It is idiotic to believe that this programming is somehow ordained by a supernatural being. It reflects merely an evolutionary advantage. Similarly sexuality is likewise an evolutionary trait. But just as I am not concerned about whether my next meal is coming from, neither am I concerned about human reproduction. If people choose to redefine their sexuality, assuming it is a choice, it means little and is none of my business.
Besides if the pope wasn’t such an ignorant fool he would realize that the environment only sustains our population because we have manipulated the environment to our own ends.
With the biotech revolution just getting underway and the coming nanotech revolution we haven’t even scratched the surface of manipulating our nature and if the Pope doesn’t want a part of it that’s fine by me.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:01 pm
Fletch, I stand by my statement, however to clarify, I was not suggesting all Catholics are part of a pedophile ring. I was saying there exists such a thing inside the church and it has been there a very long time. The Catholic chruch brings this on themselves by making sex a sin and not allowing clergy to have normal sexual relations. It is a magnet for weirdos for that reason.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:04 pm
Rex
I have no information that remotely suggests that David G has or is coaching McVicar but even if he was….so what? David G has learned to be media savvy through the school of hard knocks (witness the ambush over the sterilisation comment) & Garth McVicar would be torn to pieces left to his own devices.
If the media want to do shark tank impressions to raise their precious egos & ratings it behoves anyone to seek media management advice before granting any sort of interview. A former broadcaster & wannabe politician has been teaching Labour politicians to prevaricate for a couple of generations even though their comrades in the media give them a free ride.
We would be better off if coaching wasn’t needed but no sane person is going to be flayed alive by partisan news jocks.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:05 pm
‘a magnet for weirdos’
Vote:So the Sensible Sentencing Trust and the Catholic Church have a bit in common then.
January 20th, 2013 at 7:09 pm
mikenmild,
You think it’s okay that people with a list of convictions as long as your arm are not receiving custodial sentences when they re-offend?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:11 pm
There are countless ways in which parents can improve the life of their children. Of course, all things being equal, it’s ideal to be raised by ones natural parents. But how about being grateful for what you do have rather than bemoaning the fact that life wasn’t perfect?
You know many kids grow up with alcoholic parents. This is often to their detriment. But there is no law which says that drinkers can’t marry and I would suggest that is far more significant than an insecurity about ones masculinity.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:15 pm
wat
Vote:I think lots of things are okay. I expect people to receive a custodial sentence when necessary. I also expect that the number of previous convictions is one factor for a judge to consider when determining the sentence given to a convicted criminal. You might like to run us through the other relevant factors, just for fun, and then ask some even more stupidly rhetorical questions.
January 20th, 2013 at 7:19 pm
How dare they – no idea what you are talking about. However I can assure you that I am not committing adultery. Kea, I do think Christian values are superior because they come from God who is the creator of all things. Christianity is also the bedrock of our western civilisation. With contribution from the Greeks to a lesser extent.
Vote:So the imposition of gay marriage is a frontal attack on Christian morality and marriage and the family as understood for millenia.
The world view that is being foisted on us is atheism, the belief in evolution and the desire to destroy the things of God. The family is being destroyed and we are reaping the harvest of broken homes, lost young people and yes increased crime.
January 20th, 2013 at 7:19 pm
mm,
Just calling you out on your “clever” remark about the Sensible Sentencing Trust.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:24 pm
@nasska
I have no problem with someone who has thought about an issue, read widely on it, and generally formed their views through consideration of facts and research and opposing points of view getting some media coaching to help them express those views. Even politicians.
But this submission suggests McVicar’s arrival at a conclusion is based entirely on his feelings: “I think this is abhorrent, it makes me feel bad, therefore I oppose it”. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that – similar lines of thought are displayed on blog comments multiple times a day – but I do have an issue with the media not challenging him enough to expose how thin is his intellectual grasp of the things for which he argues.
Far from being “flayed alive by partisan news jocks” as you suggest, anyone else whose thinking was as simplistic and semi-literate as that displayed in McVicar’s submission would have been held up to ridicule very quickly. McVicar has been coddled by the media in a way David Garrett could only dream about. I’m not sure why, though keeping a contact book full of easily provoked extremists is a lazy way to generate a headline if you don’t have the resources to fill a newspaper or bulletin with proper journalism. Whatever the reason, this man should stop being given any credibility, now.
@mikenmild
I wish you were right, but the symbiotic relationship between McVicar and the media won’t let that happen. “Offender avoids jail, victim offers forgiveness, everyone happy with the outcome” does not make a good headline. It especially does not fuel tomorrow’s talkback or provide dramatic “weeping survivors” footage for television.
I could point a news crew to any number of exceptionally succesful restorative justice practices in the UK and elsewhere, supported by police, victims and others in the system. But I’m never asked, because everyone involved is happy, and happiness is not, judged by today’s values, newsworthy.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:27 pm
Rex,
Yep, a bad representation indeed – a real facepalm. I was suggesting that perhaps DG should push himself to the front more, to prevent those ‘raw’ messages.
As it happens, DG has tried to steer well clear of the gay marriage debate here on Kiwiblog. He’s made a couple of references that suggest that he is against the move, but nothing directly to the point, or outside of GD as I recall. And certainly nowhere near the bizarre dot-joining of McVicar.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:27 pm
I disagree Rex: McVicar will become ever more a figure of fun and will probably resort to ever-more desperate claims to keep the spotlight on himself and his despicable cause.
Vote:wat
Whatever. I’m game for a serious discussion also if you have one in you.
January 20th, 2013 at 7:31 pm
@mikey,
You do realise those two sentences are incongruous, don’t you?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:35 pm
Rex Widerstrom (4,891) Says:
January 20th, 2013 at 7:24 pm
———————–
Spot on Rex!
For some reason, I guess its the desire for retribution, we believe that long terms of imprisonment will punish the offender, and make them rethink their offending ways.
However, we know it generally doesn’t work, and other than the serious violent offender, who naturally must be kept separate from society, the people most effected by terms of imprisonment are the taxpayer, and the family’s of the ‘lucky’ offender.
Restorative justice appears to be more successful at reducing recidivism than most other offender management methods. Unfortunately, despite much effort, it has generally not been adopted in NZ, and received very little support. It is a pity, because those that benefit most from the method are the victims and the community.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:47 pm
Judith
I prefer the term punishment to retribution but either way one thing is certain. Serious & repeat offenders are not reoffending & therefore society is a better place when they’re inside.
Restorative justice is touchy feely crap worthy of mad feminists…..victim impact statements are similar fluff.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:54 pm
Fletch:but good to see you recognize the “homosexual” component in what constitutes your “pedophile ring”. That it largely isn’t the straight men who have the problem in that regard.
More of your anti-gay propaganda? Most pedophiles are not gay.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 7:55 pm
Baloney. If “western civilization” means anything it means Skyscrapers, industrial manufacturing, jumbo jets, computers etc. Etc. All these things are possible because of scientific inquiry in a liberal democracy. They aren’t the product of some theistic ramblings of people who lived thousands of years ago and barely understood the world around them.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:00 pm
I can understand you feeling that way, as it is often presented via the media as such, however that is mostly not the case.
In fact, facing ones victims can be very hard on the offender. Harder than any prison sentence. Imprisonment does not bring the victims of crime and the offender together. The offender does not get to see the results of their offending, or hear and see the effect it is has had on other people.
The victim feels they have been heard. Often their wishes regarding future treatment of the offender are followed. They get a say in decisions, and often received some form of compensation, that they system would not otherwise, not cough up.
Believe me, victims do not sit there and swallow the fake apologies etc. It is a long grueling process for all concerned.
Vote:And then, the offender also faces the Courts. Going through the restorative justice program, does not cancel out court action. Although it is often taken into account when sentencing the offender.
January 20th, 2013 at 8:01 pm
Interesting discussion, which touches on the State and marriage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3LnVa7zXgc
Yes, it’s Glenn Beck.
When was the last time the supposedly superior state TV in New Zealand had anything approaching this?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:01 pm
Andrei or Fletch – In the Pope’s speech talking of personal sexual choice destroying the very “essence of the human creature” in the process, if as you say Fletch “the Pope’s comments, while referencing man and sexuality, were in no way directly attacking gays – he made no reference to gay marriage”, what if not gays do you think he was talking about?
I admit world-wide headlines may have been a little more emphatically, but what else was it about, if not gay marriage?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:03 pm
Nasska,
And yet touchy feely Norway has recidivism and offending rates far below punishment heavy USA. Perhaps it is merely a cognitive bias that makes you opposed. It does seem that it would be an evolutionary advantage to have a strong emotional reaction against those who threaten your own survival. But if you do let people out perhaps it’s best to treat them how we expect them to treat others.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:05 pm
Weihana, not baloney at all. The whole concept of science comes from the idea that we were created by a rational God who made the universe in a rational manner. That’s why we can discover laws of science because firstly there was a lawgiver.
Vote:There are two cities that formed western civilisation, Athens and Jerusalem. To suggest that our civilisation does not come out of a Christian world view is just denial of reality quite frankly.
January 20th, 2013 at 8:06 pm
For example:
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:10 pm
Now if you want to talk baloney you need look no further than your evolutionary assumptions. Thank God it has only been around for a hundred years. There is no way you can base a civilisation that lasts on evolutionary principles. There have been attempts of course, the third reich and the USSR are two that come to mind. And they didn’t end well.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:11 pm
nasska says:
Tell that to the Jewish community, as noted by DPF today in another post. Tell it to the thousands of victims and their families who’ve been healed by programs such as The Sycamore Tree Project and others like it. There’s much research on it, including a study that included NZ which I’m afraid I don’t have time to precis because I’ve got to go collect someone from the airport.
Would you deny victims like this woman the healing they deserve, which they reach only by letting go of the anger and vengeance, not holding onto it as McVicar encourages?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:17 pm
“The whole concept of science comes from the idea that we were created by a rational God who made the universe in a rational manner.”
Grow up.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:18 pm
Weihana
No sale.
In “touchy feely Norway” crime doesn’t approach the levels it does in NZ or for that matter the USA. It is a largely homogeneous nation & ignoring the recent Moslem infestation doesn’t seem to have groups of people predisposed to serious & violent crime.
If I was unfortunate enough to be the victim of a crime I would certainly resist any attempts to involve me in any form of restorative garbage. My reasons:
1) Most people who commit serious crime lack empathy & I would vomit watching someone feign it.
2) Few would have the means to pay any restitution.
3) Regardless of what you & “Judith” opine the only sane reason for an offender to take part in restorative justice meetings is to obtain a reduced sentence…..in most cases in NZ the sentence for violent crime is so manifestly inadequate that I would never give anyone the chance to reduce it further.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:20 pm
What sort of crimes have you been a victim of, nasska?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:22 pm
Sofia:what if not gays do you think he was talking about?
Its hard to say for sure, but reading the extract that Fletch posted leaves me wondering if the Pope is responding to people like Judith Butler, popular with the post-modern sociology crowd, who argues that gender is something we perform.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:22 pm
Well there was certainly the legislated theft of higher taxation under Clark and Cullen, mikey. And you got no bloody thanks for it!
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:25 pm
Were the tax cuts restorative enough for you, or did you want the perpetrators to serve some hard time?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:29 pm
mikenmild
With the exceptions ‘bhudson so rightly pointed out I been pretty lucky so far. Had a Quad flogged a few years back & the odd fuel theft but that’s about it. Not so all the others I know & I’ve heard some horror stories & seen the aftermath.
It is not necessary to experience personally everything that life can throw at you to understand cause & effects.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:31 pm
Weihana (2,739) Says:
January 20th, 2013 at 8:03 pm
Look up the theory of “Motivated reasoning”, you might find it interesting but in no way is it a subtle hint towards anything and if anyone else wants to. I just didn’t want to come across as “Shepherding” “Biased” “Agendist” “Indoctrinator” if i threw a link. It’s best if people make up their own minds.
I went Eeni-Meeni down the list of posters and landed on you.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:33 pm
I am quite happy for Ms Clark to have her role at the UN and for Sir Michael to have his honour. One shouldn’t be overly political about such things (although it would appear that some are.)
I found the tax rebalancing to be quite neutral really, but I remain very supportive of the change to allow kiwi workers to decide for themselves what to spend their earnings on (including paying down debt) and letting those who choose to spend pay more consumption tax.*
* And, of course, we recall that those on low incomes and benefits were given subsidies at the time to address the fact that a higher percentage of their incomes is consumed with necessary expenditure.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:33 pm
mikemild
Do you have some inside info that suggests that Dr Cullen & Dear Leader are prepared to turn themselves in & admit the heinous crimes they perpatrated on at the innocent taxpayer?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:34 pm
More of your anti-gay propaganda? Most pedophiles are not gay.
I think you’ll find that there are more male pedophiles than women, and that most of their targets are boys.
If that does not make them gay then what does it make them?
MORE – http://www.mega.nu/ampp/baldwin_pedophilia_homosexuality.pdf
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:37 pm
chiz (883) Says:
January 20th, 2013 at 8:22 pm
“who argues that gender is something we perform.”
Interesting.
Could you explain further I’ve heard of this somewhere.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:40 pm
Fletch – I see you are still enlightening us all with your non-hatred of homosexuals.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 8:58 pm
Fletch:If that does not make them gay then what does it make them?
Try reading the link I posted before:
The link also debunks the 1988 study you quote and Cameron’s work, quoted in your link.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:00 pm
Rodders, I’m just speaking to a statement that chiz made.
Now, how can my cut’n'paste be hateful if it contains quotations and data from gays own periodicals? As well as papers from publications that deal with sexuality. I’m not condemning anyone. If you consider what I pasted to be condemnatory, then that comes from gays own magazine articles.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Azeraph:Could you explain further I’ve heard of this somewhere.
Not really. The wikipedia article on her, summarizes one of her books:
I really can’t figure out what she’s on about, from the summary above, or the few bits of her I’ve tried reading. Its possibly significant that she once won an award for her bad academic prose – see the wikipedia for the sentence in question if you have a strong stomach.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:10 pm
Fletch – I guess it depends what articles you choose to cut and paste. Do you post many that don’t depict homosexuals as perverted?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:14 pm
Fletch:Now, how can my cut’n’paste be hateful if it contains quotations and data from gays own periodicals?
Because it is selective. It quote from publications and some studies which back up the author’s prejudices, and ignores other publications and studies that contradict the author’s prejudices. The fact that you are willing to post it – again and again and again – without realising this, or even double-checking it speaks volumes about your own prejudices.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:19 pm
Lol. You make up a supernatural being, for which you have no empirical evidence (other than your own logical fallacies and circular arguments) and then proceed to tell me about “reality”.
To address your argument, the concept of God is superfluous to the idea that objective physical laws exist and more importantly civilization has endured millennia of people believing in religion without appreciable scientific advancement, at least compared with what has been discovered in more recent times.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:19 pm
No the National Socialist Workers Party (Nazi) & the United Soviet Socialist Republic, were based on socialism, not evolutionary science.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:27 pm
Muslims in the middle ages also did scientific research even though they don’t require Allah, or his actions, to be rational or understandable by human minds.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:34 pm
I see that the Sunday joke session has begun in earnest
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:36 pm
Nasska,
Homogenous? is that a nice way of saying it’s the blacks fault?
However, while that argument may or may not have merit, I fail to conceive how it would explain lower recidivism. As you yourself contend, criminals have a certain inherent bad nature about them so that should be true of Norways criminals as much as America’s. While one might argue that homogeneity makes one less likely to be a criminal in the first place, if one already is a criminal why would the homogeneity of society make you less likely to be a recidivist offender.
I think if you take a look at the atrocious conditions in America’s prisons and what inmates must do merely to survive it is no wonder that they come out unable to function in normal society. Of course the drug war deserves it’s share of the blame and that in particular hits the black community hard and “predisposes” the community to crime.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:42 pm
Thanks.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:42 pm
Ask yourself:
Norway distinguishes two kinds of rapes: rape and attack-rape. In rapes, the rapist and the victim know each other beforehand, while an attack-rape is when the two do not know each other before the rape. In Oslo, 100 percent of the attack-rapes are committed by non-Western immigrants with a “view of women” that makes them rape, according to the leading police officer, Hanne Kristin Rohde.
With 76 rapes during the first 91 days of 2012, the number of rapes in Oslo has increased by an alarming 69 percent compared to the same period last year.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:50 pm
Weihana, this is the sort of thing they hide in European countries, to make it look like there is no problem. This is far from an isolated instance.
In accordance with §12.1 of its code, the Federal Republic press has put a gag order on this story.
http://www.presserat.info/index.php?id=87
“A 16-year-old girl was tormented, beaten and gang-raped in a parking garage in Worms. But that was not enough for her tormenters. They raped her with a bottle and then broke the bottle and jammed it into her, severing her intestine and slicing open her womb. She was found unconscious, severely wounded and unclothed. Only an emergency operation saved her.
Vote:The results: Because of the severe mutilation in the genital area, a permanent ileostomy was performed (creating a permanent, artificial anus). She will never lead a normal life, have a sexual life, have children.”
January 20th, 2013 at 9:51 pm
Wehana
Re recidivism…I’ve been reading Rex’s links & its true that the rates for offenders who have taken part in restorative justice programmes are lower. The jury will be out on by how much as the data was taken from a very small sample & obviously only those who want to get & stay out of prison will be highly motivated to take part.
Agree wholeheartedly with you on the incredibly negative effects of the Drug War on prison musters…..especially blacks.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 9:59 pm
chiz (885) Says:
January 20th, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Deconstructionism? So how does mirror neurons fit into the picture? That was a headache, which goes to show my level of intelligence.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:18 pm
I don’t think mirror neurons have anything to do with Butler’s theories if that’s what you’re asking.
(And lots of very intelligent people also get headaches when trying to figure out Butler is on about).
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:20 pm
But back to McVicar: bitter, deluded old fool or truth-speaking sage?
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:31 pm
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6846855/gay-men-will-marry-your-girlfriends
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:39 pm
chiz (888) Says:
January 20th, 2013 at 10:18 pm
Yeah, The joke was abstract like her prose or lack of it.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 10:46 pm
OK, I see
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:20 pm
As for the argument that same sex marriage would lead to increased domestic violence, child abuse and crime.
Is there any evidence from countries where same sex marriages has been allowed?
One of the drivers of increased crime is family breakdown, another is income and employment rate disparity connected to ethnic difference (now a factor in Europe derived from immigration). Same sex marriage is not connected to either factor.
Basically the only way same sex marriage would led to a increased risk of family breakdown is because there were more families as a result of these marriages. But this risk occurs each and every time a family forms.
It would seem that the attempt to link same sex marriage to negative outcomes is a desperate attempt to rationalise opposition.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:26 pm
As for child abuse in particular, the higher levels are in de facto couple families and re-marriage families – usually where the birth mother has a partner who is not the birth father. The same dynamic occurs in the animal kingdom, but this impluse only occurs when a new breeding couple forms. Homosexuals are not part of this dynamic. All the evidence suggests children raised by birth parents and same sex partners would be the safest from child abuse.
Vote:January 20th, 2013 at 11:33 pm
For Your Information
Media Statement re Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill
(20th January 2013)
The Sensible Sentencing Trust wishes to clarify that the recent submission regarding the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill was made by Garth McVicar in a personal capacity and does not represent the view of the Sensible Sentencing Trust, or the wide range of views our members will no doubt have on the issue.
Regards,
Ruth Money
Sensible Sentencing Trust.
http://www.safenz.org.nz/Press/2013mediastatement.htm
For what its worth, I strongly disagree with Garth on this particular issue.
Believe it or not, dissension IS permitted within the Trust!!!
Regards
Vote:Peter Jenkins
Webmaster for Sensible Sentencing Trust
January 21st, 2013 at 8:42 am
As is usually the case, this thread has moved a long way from where it began, viz. Garth’s submission on “marriage equality”. I note with amusement that it only took about three comments for “the dead baby” to be brought up…I have not commented before because I have been away camping with my kids…both conceived out of (heterosexual) wedlock as it happens.
But for the record, if anyone is still interested, I do not “coach” Garth…I often give my view, or advice on particular points…sometimes he takes it, often he doesn’t. Like my friend Peter Jenkins, I disagree with Garth on a number of issues…we are allowed to do that in the SST – we are not the Labour Party caucus or the Stalinists who run The Standard.
Vote:January 21st, 2013 at 12:04 pm
Scott
You wrote “How dare they – no idea what you are talking about. However I can assure you that I am not committing adultery.”
Really? If you are unmarried, then in Biblical terms no worries about checking out women – for example, thinking nice legs, nice breasts, whatever.
My point is, in Biblical terms if a married man looks at a woman not his wife with lust in his heart, he should sever his right hand and remove his right eye. Only when married does this Commandment apply.
I just wonder at the hypocrisy of straight people who attack gays while refusing to accept their own sexual thoughts and actions have no consequences.
Vote:January 21st, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Truth speaking sage.
And if only a few couples “marry” what’s the point of redefining this ancient institution?
It’s homosexual activism,dressed up as equality.
Vote:January 21st, 2013 at 5:23 pm
How dare they – I think I understand where you are coming from. The point Jesus is making is about lust and the need for our thoughts and our actions to be in alignment. So we need to guard our hearts, what we look at and think about as well as what we actually do. So point taken.
Vote:However that does not mean that gay marriage is right or that we must be perfect before we comment on an issue. If we waited till we were without sin before we commented on this blog then I would suggest we would be very short of contributions!
If we take the biblical reference as authoritive then homosexuality is a sin, indeed an abomination and will lead to bad consequences, even if we decide to call it marriage.
January 21st, 2013 at 9:15 pm
French homosexuals demonstrate against same-sex ‘marriage’
NEW YORK, January 18, 2013, (C-FAM) – Perhaps as many as a million people marched in Paris last Sunday and at French embassies around the world against proposed legislation that would legalize same-sex marriage in France. One of the surprises in the French campaign for traditional marriage is that homosexuals have joined pro-family leaders and activists in the effort.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/french-homosexuals-demonstrate-against-same-sex-marriage
Vote:January 21st, 2013 at 10:07 pm
hinamanu, I guess that those gays who do not have children do not consider themselves to be raising families. And if they see marital commitment as related to an intent to have children – do they then think older couples who marry should just have a civil union?
Those who look at the link can follow a link to a study. Actually a link about the study. From there they can follow a link to the actual study. They can then look up the name of the person who did the study and find out stuff like the research has been challenged (the researcher is known for linking their faith to their work) and it was financed by the Witherspoon Institute.
Mark Regnerus the researcher concerned claims that men who support same sex marriage are porn users. He does not comment about why more women than men support it.
Vote:January 21st, 2013 at 10:10 pm
howdarethey – what Bible do you have that suggests the intending adulterer should sever his RIGHT hand or remove his RIGHT eye?
Vote:January 22nd, 2013 at 12:37 am
Oh no!! Catholic bishops in France endorse homosexual unions:
Vote:January 22nd, 2013 at 3:49 pm
Newsflash. Had a look at this fake “French anti-marriage equality “gay”" website, Homovox. It seems to consist primarily of celibate Catholics with gay desires who don’t put it into practise, or fundamentalist ‘exgays.’ So much for authentic “lesbians and gays” opposing marriage equality…
Vote:January 23rd, 2013 at 10:18 am
And as for the gays-are-pedos argument, read this, please…
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html (the author is a member of the centre-right US Independent Gay Forum).
Vote:January 23rd, 2013 at 10:20 am
And newsflash two- pedos sexually abuse children regardless of gender and are usually married straight men. Remember Graham Capill? And not all the victims of Catholic clergy pedophilia are male, either.
Vote:January 23rd, 2013 at 11:33 am
Good to see SST distancing itself from McVicar’s outburst, too.
Vote: