The Devoy appointment

March 24th, 2013 at 7:00 am by David Farrar

The appointment of Dame as is surprising, as she has no background in the arena of race relations. I presume that was a deliberate decision of the Government to have someone whom they see as “mainstream” and thinks the country will also.

But the lack of background does mean she will be closely scrutinised in how she does in the role, and if she doesn’t perform well, the Government will be blamed. However there will be considerable differences of opinion on what “performing well” means.

Bryce Edwards has written a summary of opinions on Dame Susan’s appointment. He’s also collected a collection of mainly humourous tweets about it, the best of which I include below:

Danyl Mclauchlan ‏@danylmc 

‘Susan Devoy Race-Relations Commissioner’ makes me wonder how close we came to ‘Richie McCaw, RBNZ Governor’ before someone talked Key down.

Danyl Mclauchlan ‏@danylmc

At least Susan Devoy is more qualified than Anna Guy, who will probably have to settle for PMs Science Advisor

Phil Quin ‏@philquin

The great thing about New Zealand is how anyone — anyone — can grow up to become Race Relations Commissioner one day.

Marcus Cook ‏@MarcusDCook

Revealed; Devoy appointed after “rock, paper, scissors” match with Paul Henry. Won 2/3.

Martyn Bradbury ‏@CitizenBomber

After Devoy, Paul Henry will be appointed to the Broadcasting Standards Authority & Cameron Slater will be the new Surgeon General

Heh.

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99 Responses to “The Devoy appointment”

  1. George Patton (351 comments) says:

    Putting aside the fact whether we NEED a Race Relations Conciliator at all, why does it need to be in the domain of an earnest academic with “the right credentials”, e.g., photo with Mandela, dislike of European cultural impacts on indigenous people, etc?

    Devoy is a widely well regarded sports hero. I’d back her to bring people together more easily than someone I quickly disliked like Boris De Whatsit and Gregory Fortuyn, whose shirts were a violent offense on middle NZ.

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  2. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    I fail to see how Susan’s comment about religion has anything to to with her job as Race-Relations Commissioner. People cannot choose what race they are but to a large degree they can choose their religion or sexual preference.

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  3. Mark (1,436 comments) says:

    Time will tell but I am sceptical that she has the experience or background for the job. I think it is a bit of a signal from the government that they do not take the role that seriously. Perhaps they are right.

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  4. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Why do we need a Race Relations Commissioner in the first place?
    Let’s save money and axe the quango.

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  5. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Yes…the role is PC bullshit and causes many of the very problems its supposed to be combating.

    Chuck: I fail to see how Susan’s comment about religion has anything to to with her job as Race-Relations Commissioner. People cannot choose what race they are but to a large degree they can choose their religion or sexual preference.

    And just when did you choose to be the insecure, repressed hetrosexual ( Im assuming) you are Chuck…?

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  6. Michael (899 comments) says:

    Previous appointments Joris De Bres, Rajen Prasad and Chris Laidlaw were all acceptable and their experience – but then they were all hard core left-wingers so therefore exempt from criticism.

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  7. kowtow (7,976 comments) says:

    There’s nothing humorous about Martyn Bradbury.

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  8. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    What has the burqa got to with race? The burqa is a health and environmental issue. It makes ugly women look even uglier and it causes women who wear it to suffer from bone loss and their children to suffer from Rickets. Another huge burden on good old Westie.

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  9. peterwn (3,216 comments) says:

    Mark and The Scorned – Judith Collins was probably concerned to have someone who could cut through all the politically correct bullshit and deliver on the expectations of the average Kiwi. Requirement of the job with that in mind are lots of common sense and empathy with the average Kiwi – not PhD’s on racism, peace studies, etc. Seems Judith was not too impressed with applicants the first time it was advertised – Susan’s track record in public affairs must have come to the notice of a headhunter asked to find suitable candidates following the failure of the first advertisment.

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  10. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    I think Devoy demonstrated her lack of suitability for the position with this comment made a couple of days ago.

    “”My mother’s name was Tui and if you saw her you would instantly think we were Maori … I think you’re as Maori as you feel.”

    What was that meant to be? My mother might have been Maori because she had a Maori name? My mothers name was Mary, but I’m pretty sure she wasn’t a virgin. Perhaps Tui was named after the beer?

    “If you saw her you would instantly think we were Maori” – another demonstration of ignorance – race is NOT about physical features – just what does a ‘Maori’ look like? To be Maori you must have whakapapa – if not, it is most unlikely you will be accepted by Maori, as one of theirs. Ask any Maori child that was adopted by the stranger adoption practices of the 50-70′s. They struggle for acceptance when they are unable to prove their whakapapa. Devoy is SO unprepared for this position.

    Plus it sounds quite like tokenism to me.

    “I think you are as Maori as you feel” – I’m sure there will be quite a few ‘feeling’ particularly ‘Maori’ if there was a benefit in doing so – a bit of land perhaps?

    I can’t help but feel this appointment is going to bounce back on the Government. I think Susan Devoy deserves recognition, she has contributed a lot to New Zealand and she is a wonderful role model and mentor – but this particular appointment, at this particular time in our history, when race relations (and not just with Maori, but questions over Asian property purchases etc) is NOT the time to be experimenting or practicing nepotism/cronyism.

    Lets just hope Devoy realises what a mine field she has wandered into and steps away before any damage is done. I’d love to see Devoy in a position like ‘youth commissioner’ where she could put her relevant experience into mentoring and guiding our ‘displaced’ youth.

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  11. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Race Relations Commissioner past decisions:

    “Social assistance should be given on the basis of need, not race” = RACIST !!!!

    “Europeans should not be allowed into NZ due to their attitudes & I would not want my kids to marry one or bring one home” = not racist.

    Europeans make up around 10% (and declining) of the worlds population. They are a minority group and if they were any other kind of animal, would be classed as critically endangered. I think such a person is ideal for the role.

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  12. Redbaiter (8,039 comments) says:

    Since when do the extreme left in this country tell the National Party who they can hire?

    Judith Collins can appoint anyone she likes to the role, and communists like Bradbury and McLauchlan and the rest can go fuck themselves.

    If National had anything like the guts and initiative they should have they would have abolished and defunded the whole damn department.

    The hard pressed taxpayers of NZ should not be robbed to fund these kind of unnecessary and dinosuaric Marxist setups.

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  13. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    sk any Maori child that was adopted by the stranger adoption practices of the 50-70′s. They struggle for acceptance when they are unable to prove their whakapapa.

    Judith how about the family history of adopted non maori ? Do they “struggle for acceptance” ?

    What a load of racist white hating crap you have written. I can not even pretend to imagine what motivates hate filled divisive people like you.

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  14. Jaffa (84 comments) says:

    Common sense is all you need!
    Not so common these days!

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  15. Whaleoil (766 comments) says:

    What rubbish David..of the nine previous RRC only two barely had any background in race relations….the first one being a career civil servant.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Commission_(New_Zealand)

    Chris Laidlaw was a diplomat and a rugby player…does packing down ir rucking with maori qualify as race relations background?

    Same with Hiwi Tauroa

    Of the nine previous 5 were definitely Labour flunkies that either stood for Labour or went on to become MPs, or sympathisers…where is the problem with Susan Devoy looking at the previous RRCs

    I don;t want to be Surgeon-General…I don’t even think we have the role in NZ so looks like Martyn has lifted a quote from the US…but Mental Health Commissioner…that could be a bit of fun

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  16. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I see the anti-white hate groups are getting lots of air time in the msm, after a small group of white folk dared to be proud of their cultural heritage.

    I wonder what Susan will do about that ?

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  17. duggledog (1,439 comments) says:

    Kowtow yes there is!

    You don’t remember him in his nu metal phase when he was on the short lived youth radio station ‘Channel Zee’

    Now that was funny. Piercings and tats and shit

    Susan Devoy will be brilliant. She won’t give a shit about upsetting anyone’s feelings, she’ll make such an arse of it they’ll disestablish the quango. Good job.

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  18. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    @Jaffa. Exactly. Might just be a stroke of genius. Take the victims into a squash court and tell them to harden up.

    Leave Hone Harawira and Margaret Mutu to play the fool, though, they provide endless entertainment and make me feel quite sane and sophisticated.

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  19. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,692) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 8:56 am

    ———————————-

    I am pakeha, I am ‘white’ and I certainly do not hate what I am.

    How do the family of adopted non Maori feel? Yes they struggle for acceptance too – most adopted people do. But the kind of acceptance I was talking about is different. Maori identity is very much to do with your genealogy – it establishes your identity, your place – who you are. If you are unable to do that – you are unable to establish your place in Maoridom. If you have heard a Maori greeting, they give their whakapapa, their Iwi, their place (river/mountain) is where their Iwi was, and their family (their mother/father etc). If they do not know this, many have said they experience an extra feeling of loss of identity/misplaced – on top of what comes with being adopted. An excellent study by M. Haenga Collins into Closed Stranger Adoption – Maori Children into Pakeha Families provides a lot of examples of this.

    It appears to me Kea, that you seem to think anyone supporting such issues, must immediately be ‘racist white hating’. There is no hate involved. Just an attempt to understand the dilemmas involved for people who share our society.

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  20. Redbaiter (8,039 comments) says:

    Just the same old Marri supremacist separatist shit Judith. You’re sickening.

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  21. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Whatever Redbaiter !

    I’ll tell you what though. Devoy won’t do the job how you and others think she will. Those comments made (as inappropriate as they were) were made to appease the critics who said she was anti-Maori. They demonstrate a desire to do and say anything to prove she can do the job, but they also show a willingness to associate herself very clearly with Maori.

    And that is how she will do the job – knowing she is being watched, knowing the criticism against her and the feeling that she will not be ‘even handed’, will make her swing the other way – against what any of you racist fools want.

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  22. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    Judith tells all a story
    About the good old Hori
    I could wear a kilt
    And assuage my guilt
    For being an old white Tory.

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  23. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Yes they struggle for acceptance too – most adopted people do.

    Oh really ! I am half Syrian and adopted. It is a “closed” adoption file. Syrians also place a lot of importance on their family history. A history that goes beyond the existence of Maori and dates back to the beginnings of civilisation.

    The only thing I “struggle” with are cringing cultural cowards like you. You never see this in Asians (worlds biggest cultural group) or any other non white group. They are proud of who they are. Unlike you.

    Your a fake Judith.

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  24. Redbaiter (8,039 comments) says:

    Anyone who has had any dealing with the Racist office knows that most of the staff there are Marxist scum.

    Has anyone here on Kiwiblog who has had anything to do with this vile anachronistic bureaucracy had any satisfaction, or have they just been offended by the naked anti-white European prejudices of the staff and management?

    Shut it down and fire them all. They are a poisonous boil in the flesh of NZ society.

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  25. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,694) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 9:32 am
    ————————-

    Again you don’t even try to understand.
    Maori culture places great importance of being ‘who you are’ and the whakapapa. That is part of their culture, without it, finding a place is difficult – and for those that seek that place (which has no bearing of whether you do or not, obviously you don’t because if you did, you would understand) – if they are unable to find their whakapapa – they feel a very strong sense of displacement.

    Just because your culture doesn’t, according to you, means that they shouldn’t? Just because Asian may or may not, means that Maori shouldn’t ? You think everyone should be the same as you – no difference allowed?

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  26. Redbaiter (8,039 comments) says:

    “Again you don’t even try to understand.”

    Wake up Jude. People struggling to raise their families and dealing with crime and violence from so called Maori have had it up to here with that “Maori are special people” separatist propaganda. Its not a question of understanding it. We’re well past that point. We understand it better than you, for we recognise it for the worthless crap it really is. The sooner we stop making distinctions and treating them as “special”, and patronising them, and buying into the “noble savage” propaganda you buy into, the sooner their situation will improve. Most of them are not even Maori for fuck’s sake.

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  27. 3-coil (1,204 comments) says:

    Judith the “pakeha” – why are you telling us how maori feel about these issues? Can’t they speak for themselves, or can’t they express themselves as well as a sophisticated clever “pakeha” like you?

    Which maori group put you forward as their spokeswoman, or are you self-appointed?

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  28. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (2,478) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 9:45 am
    ————————

    Sounds to me like you are looking for excuses for your own failures and uncertainties Redbaiter.

    3-coil – I am discussing my opinion – I am allowed one without representing any other group.

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  29. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    @Judith. Do you really think Maoris are genetically predisposed to this “feeling lost” more than any other people? Most of them are of mainly European descent, so it must be a dominant gene…

    The cause of “Maori” failure is Maori culture.

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  30. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, there is nothing at all unique about Maori valuing their family history.

    Only Maori do not value their family history. They invariably identify as Maori, even when the majority of their real genealogy is actually European.

    Now if you come back with something along the lines of ” it is how you feel/cultural etc” then we can all claim to be Maori, based on our alleged feelings.

    You are advocating special treatment on the basis of race. If you want Maori treated in accordance with their customs, then we will simply have to massacre them all, which is exactly what Maori did.

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  31. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    I hope Dame Susan does a terrible job.

    I’m not saying I think she will, but without an ‘expert’ Race Relations Commissioner does anyone really think a single New Zealander’s quality of life will be worsened by one jot? I simply can’t see the reason for Judith’s soft-left hand-wringing on tihs one.

    The job is what it is – a cosy sinecure for clapped-out former authoritarians and finger wavers. To my knowledge, Dame Susan Devoy does not have a track record of supporting totalitarian regimes. I guess if someone has to benefit from taxpayar largess, I’d rather have a normal, decent New Zealander do so.

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  32. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne (798) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 9:54 am
    ————————

    I didn’t say the were the only people that feel that way – but the subject was Maori – I believe indigenous people throughout the world also have similar feelings, but this is New Zealand and Maori are legally recognised as our indigenous people. From what I gather, Susan Devoy isn’t being made RRC of the entire world.

    If you think Maori are entirely to blame for their inequality – that is your choice – I don’t happen to agree with you.

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  33. Redbaiter (8,039 comments) says:

    “inequality”

    Groan..

    You sure are full of it Jude.

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  34. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, explain the term “indigenous” to me ?

    Or do you really mean, “not white looking” ? You see I never hear of the “indigenous” Britons or “indigenous” Germanic peoples.

    Please explain… (bet you cant)

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  35. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,695) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 9:55 am

    Now if you come back with something along the lines of ” it is how you feel/cultural etc” then we can all claim to be Maori, based on our alleged feelings.

    —————————-

    It was Susan Devoy’s comment about ‘feeling Maori’ not mine.

    The rest of your comments are sickening – and would be equivalent to saying that Syrians seem to like blowing each other up, so why don’t you do the cultural thing and do the same – human life, regardless of race is not something to joke about – except you weren’t joking, were you?

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  36. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    @Judith. Do you think “Maori” are genetically different from Caucasians, other than appearance? Yes/No

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  37. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,696) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:05 am
    ——————-

    The most accepted use for indigenous people are those who have become marginalised because the State has dominated or excluded them from their lands/territory. It is a legalised term both nationally and internationally and is explanatory of the position Maori are in today.

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  38. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne (799) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:08 am

    ———————————–

    Sorry to inform you Dennis, I’m surprised you didn’t know this already being such an avid ‘forensic scientist’, but we are all different genetically. That is how we can be identified by our DNA.

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  39. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I am concerned about the poverty stricken indigenous (white) people in the former socialist USSR colonies of Europe. The level of deprivation and social injustice there is heart breaking.

    I am half Sand Nigger and believe strongly in social justice. You must obey, because I have the moral high ground, being as white as Obama and all. (strangely I did not get a Nobel prize for only being half darkie)

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  40. tvb (4,261 comments) says:

    She is as qualified as anyone. She has good media skills. She is an achiever. She has a good feel on how middle NZ thinks. She will be fine. At least she is not some PC leftie that the Labour Party want.

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  41. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The most accepted use for indigenous people are those who have become marginalised because the State has dominated or excluded them from their lands/territory.

    Now lets check the facts….

    in·dig·e·nous (n-dj-ns)
    adj.
    1. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native.
    2. Intrinsic; innate.

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  42. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    I think the problem here is that Judith’s opinions on race and ethnicity are not based on scholarship but on television and movie tropes. To that extent, I’m not sure she realises how racist her ‘Noble Savage’ ideals actually sound.

    Kea – we do hear about indigenous Britons increasingly. It’s a term invoked by the British National Party quite a bit. This is quite useful because we see that just how ugly racial separatism is when shorn of the protections of political correctness.

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  43. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    @Judith. Up to your usual wriggling and sidetracking. It won’t wash with me, Judith, I saw through you ages ago.

    It is perfectly clear I am asking the difference between “Maori” as self-defined and Caucasians, as two groups, not individuals. Now, are the two groups genetically different? Yes?/No.

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  44. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,698) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:15 am
    —————————————-

    But you asked the question within the realms of indigenous peoples – by including Britons and the likes of it within your explanation.

    This is the common wikipedia explanation for indigenous peoples. If you had just wanted a definition of the word alone, why then go on to mention certain types of peoples?

    “Indigenous peoples are ethnic minorities who have been marginalized as their historical territories became part of a state.[1] In international or national legislation they are generally defined as having a set of specific rights based on their historical ties to a particular territory, and to their cultural or historical distinctiveness from politically dominant populations. The concept of indigenous people may define them as particularly vulnerable to exploitation, marginalization and oppression by nations or states that may still be in the process of colonialism, or by politically dominant ethnic groups. As a result, a special set of political rights have been set to protect them by international organizations such as the United Nations, the International Labour Organization and the World Bank”

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  45. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The rest of your comments are sickening

    Judith, I assume the “sickening” part was this: If you want Maori treated in accordance with their customs, then we will simply have to massacre them all, which is exactly what Maori did. ?

    It is a simple fact that Maori actually celebrate. No visiting dignitary can escape having it waved (literally) in their face. Ever read up on the fate of the Mori hori ?

    If you find Maori culture “sickening” then you should consider standing down as the self appointed spokes person for Maori.

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  46. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith is hating on me because I am a Sand Nigger and do not share her cultural norms Booooooo Hoooooooooo :(

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  47. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne (800) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:18 am
    ——————————

    Of course they are different – every single person is different Dennis, therefore the groups have to be different as well.

    I’m not wriggling – I know what you are trying to say – but it isn’t that simple – you don’t have a simple genetical map to follow, so sorry, call me any names you like (you always revert to personal insults at some stage or other).

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  48. Redbaiter (8,039 comments) says:

    “The most accepted use for indigenous people are those who have become marginalised because of the State has dominated or excluded them from their lands/territory. It is a legalised term both nationally and internationally and is explanatory of the position Maori are in today.”

    That is Marxist propaganda and you are a Marxist white ant. Rotting our society from the inside with divisive lies that are produced by those seeking political advantage for the left. The claim that Maori were treated badly by white settlers is a partisan and racist myth driven by the need to fracture opposition to left wing political hegemony.

    It is a myth that has been exposed time and time again by real historians, (just as Keith Windschuttle has exposed the same myths relating to Australian aborigines) but they are not given oxygen because the left control media and education.

    Anyone with a brain might question the pattern that you can observe in every western democracy under siege from the left, where they continue to try and split the opposition by confounding it with a score of similar issues- feminism, homosexual rights, indigenous rights, the “poor”, “equality”, “the rich”, the “income gap” “global warming”, “christian bigotry”, environmental destruction, all strategies used to distract and fracture opposition to Marxism.

    Anyone with any kind of measurable IQ should be able to detect these strategies for what they are and know that in the end, they are all part of the same left wing tactic and designed to bring them that which they seek most- political power.

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  49. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith says:

    we are all different genetically. That is how we can be identified by our DNA.

    The silly bitch. That is the very argument used by the most radical white supremacist groups :)

    Here is some science…

    Alan R. Templeton, Ph.D., professor of biology in Arts and Sciences, has analyzed DNA from global human populations that reveal the patterns of human evolution over the past one million years. He shows that while there is plenty of genetic variation in humans, most of the variation is individual variation. While between-population variation exists, it is either too small, which is a quantitative variation, or it is not the right type of qualitative variation — it does not mark historical sublineages of humanity.

    Using the latest molecular biology techniques, Templeton has analyzed millions of genetic sequences found in three distinct types of human DNA and concludes that, in the scientific sense, there is no such thing as race.

    http://wupa.wustl.edu/record_archive/1998/10-15-98/articles/races.html

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  50. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/23/20-being-an-expert-on-your-culture/

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  51. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,700) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:21 am
    —————————

    I do not find Maori cultural history sickening – I find your extreme ignorance of it sickening.

    I have Scottish ancestory – one of my direct ancestors roasted a monk on a fire because he wouldn’t give him some land he wanted. That is part of my history – all of us have violent histories in our genealogy – why should it sicken me?

    What sickens me is people who feel the need to associate such things with the current. Yes, the haka is a cultural action from that violent past – so is the celebration remembering hanging a man on a cross to die – but we don’t celebrate that by killing another person – anymore than the haka harms other people – we do it as part of our culture.

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  52. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    @Judith. I didn’t call you names, Judith. I said you were wriggling and sidetracking. You still are. Apart from individual genetic differences, are there any genetic differences between the groups? Either the explanation for the differences in the groups is genetic or it is cultural. Which is it?

    I know what you’re going to say, but say it here ….

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  53. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,701) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:28 am

    But that is not the question Dennis asked – of course there is similarity – we all eventuated from the beginning. But all of us also have a different genetic map (DNA) that distinguishes from others. You can’t excuse that fact, any more than you can excuse the similarity – it just isn’t that simple – and its certainly not as simple as Dennis was trying to make it. It is not a ‘yes’ or no answer (no matter how much you’d like it to be)

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  54. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Judith – you are misreading Dennis’s point, helpfully developed by Kea. We all have distinct DNA as individuals but, as ‘racial groups’ – not so much.

    That this was his point is obvious enough. Did you fail to comprehend it through dumbness or disingenuity? You may appear ignorant but you are clearly not dumb – so I am going to go with the latter.

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  55. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, I tire of talking about Maori. How do you propose we deal with marginalised people from other countries?

    I am talking about English people, Germans, Dutch etc. They are an increasing demographic and many struggle with our “culture” and feel like they do not fit in. It is very sad.

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  56. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    When you examine the DNA of a person, if is now possible to tell where they descended from. E.G. whether they have Eastern European/Western European/ African/ Polynesian etc etc DNA.

    A persons genetical make up can provide that information – therefore there is a difference. However, that same map also links all of us back to ‘adam’ (Not the biblical Adam) – so there is also an area of our genetics/makeup that is that same.

    You cannot simply take part of the equation to suit your argument Dennis. We are both similar and different, and that difference can be identified.

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  57. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    @Cato. It’s a technique Judith has developed to perfection. Sidetracking and nitpicking: Logic chopping.

    She blinds herself though: Can’t see the wood for the trees.

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  58. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,702) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:41 am

    ——————————–

    I suggest anyone that feels they don’t fit in, make an effort to understand how diversity is fine, there is room for all cultures providing they are tolerant of each other and realise they do not have the unique position that indigenous peoples do, and if they are unable to do that – they check out the ‘Holiday shoppe’ for flights back to where they came from.

    I’ve lived in another country – I didn’t like it, couldn’t cope with the violence and aggressiveness of the people – I came back here. It is that simple.

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  59. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ok Judith, lets play along with you. How do you think those genetic differences ( that you claim) make us different? Do you think that some races are less intelligent, for example ?

    Please give specific examples of how we are “genetically” different and how the changes us ?

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  60. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne (802) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:44 am
    @Cato. It’s a technique Judith has developed to perfection. Sidetracking and nitpicking: Logic chopping.

    She blinds herself though: Can’t see the wood for the trees.
    ———————————

    No its not Dennis. You just expect people to give you the answer you want – but when you ask a question that has variable answers, you can’t have it your way.

    You asked a question for which there is a variant answer – don’t blame me, blame the geneticists.

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  61. Jack5 (4,920 comments) says:

    Astonishing that the Hooer-ald today should continue it’s prominent role in the far left drive against Susan Devoy’s appointment. The Hooer-ald is showing all the signs of a leaderless, rudderless vessel swinging on a buoy pending the search for a new owner. Remember its earlier editorial against the appointment.

    If there’s a Heaven the next owner will be a rich, Korean, born-again cult that will put the Hooer-ald back on track.

    I applaud National for appointing Susan Devoy to the post and removing a platform from a string of leftists. I applaud Minister Collins even more for giving an honest, accuratement assessment of the deplorable Sykes.

    The importance of breaking the Leftists stranglehold on the Race Relations post is evident from the Leftist reaction. Could they even be behind the latest burglary of the Devoy home? Remember ratbags snooping around John Key’s rubbish bags? Could this be another probe by a Far Left Dirty Tricks squad?

    Now it’s time for our elected Centre-Left Government to sweep far-Leftists out of some other state posts.

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  62. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The AAPA (American Association of Physical Anthropology) Statement on Biological Aspects of Race (1994) describes the popular concept of race as “being derived from 19th and early 20th century scientific formulations.” The popular American folklore of the three great racial groups has its roots in a system developed in Europe and North America in the 18th century. It was for some time common to divide people into three main races. Caucasian or the so-called white race, for example, native residents of Britain, France Germany. Natives of Uganda, Somalia, and Nigeria in Africa are considered Negroid or part of the black race. Koreans, Chinese, American Indians are all Mongoloid or members of the yellow race. The distinguishing characteristics of these races are based on their visibly observable traits such as skin color, hair form, bone structure and body shape. We must keep in mind that the American system of categorizing groups of people on the basis of race, was developed by what was then a dominant white, European-descended population, and serves as a means to distinguish and control other “non-white” populations in various ways.

    Though many definitions exist, there appears to be no established agreement on any scientific definition of race. What we do find though, is the general belief among the scientific community that race has no biological or natural basis and that the “race” related physical variations found in humans have no real significance except for the social/cultural importance put on them by people.

    http://www.culturediversity.org/what%20is%20race.htm

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  63. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,703) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:47 am

    ———————————–

    The genetical differences identifiable in DNA provide links to various geographical areas, and thus a relationship to the historical people of those areas. By doing that they are able to, for example, actually tell which Scottish Clan you are descended from, and so on.

    How do they make us different?
    They make us ‘differen’t’ in our genes – it gives me a different DNA map to yours.

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  64. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    @Judith. Judith. You cannot claim there is a difference between the two groups (Maori and non-Maori) and then refuse to answer general questions about how this difference might be explained. You refuse to answer me for two reasons. First, you don’t believe (rightly or wrongly) there is a genetic difference. Second, if you say there is no genetic difference you have to admit the difference is cultural, and you don’t want to say that either. What you want to do is quote a lot of stuff that explains it by blaming colonisation.

    There are two problems with that. Britain was invaded by different peoples but no one gives more rights to Celts than Normans or whatever. Second, Britain and France are being recolonised by Muslims, and maybe we will be too, but that is all right, apparently, to complain is to be racist and xenophobic.

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  65. kowtow (7,976 comments) says:

    “Indigenous”; adj,political/ financial.

    Got here before you , you have to be made to feel guilty,you apologise and pay ,forever.

    “Here”;adv
    Anywhere there are white working people crushed by progressive govt policies.

    “You”; pronoun.

    White,taxpayer,very pissed off.

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  66. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, you should be posting on Stormfront with that line of thinking. You won’t get any thumb downs there.

    You seem totally unaware of the fact that what your saying is the total opposite of what social engineering PC academics are trying to tell us and is more in keeping with what racial separatists claim.

    Keep it up. Your helping :)

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  67. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    DPF. Are you going to do something about the white supremacist posting here? Considering your background, I would have figured zero tolerance for that crap.

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  68. Jack5 (4,920 comments) says:

    Judith has sabotaged the discussion about Devoy’s appointment. Never mind, there will be other chances to weigh in on behalf of Devoy.

    Regardless, Devoy is an excellent appointee following into the post a Marxist who was active in protest politics in Auckland.

    Judith’s statements about DNA are vastly over simplistic and overstate what tests can reveal. There is now a large genealogy testing industry which is making invalid claims. Judith’s assertion that DNA tests can tell which clans a Scots person is descended from is wild rubbish. Clans’ memberships were not as distinct as that.

    DNA researchers on the origins of English people, for example, have set up new fields for scientific dispute, with some arguing that Anglo-Saxon genes predominate, especially in East Anglia and Yorkshire and south-eastern Scotland, and others arguing that genes from “Celts” or “original Iron Age inhabitants” or even Basques, predominate.

    Judith’s lack of knowledge about DNA proves to me that she is merely sidetracking the argument with a false trail to get the hounds off the track of the Leftist pests.

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  69. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne (803) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 11:00 am
    @Judith. Judith. You cannot claim there is a difference between the two groups (Maori and non-Maori) and then refuse to answer general questions about how this difference might be explained

    Dennis, you didn’t ask for a difference between Maori and non-Maori. You asked whether they were the same genetically.
    They are not – no one is the same genetically. You didn’t like that answer, so you asked again – the answer is the same – a persons genetical makeup varies and allows them to be identified even, as I pointed out, to which Scottish clan they may be related to. However, there is also similarities – we are all, according to scientific research – descended from the same Male, therefore, we are all the ‘same’ in some ways.

    Now you say you want to know what the different between Maori and non-Maori is – that would be cultural. We are culturally different. Just as I am culturally different to you – we are also culturally the same in that we share a common ‘kiwi’ culture – and so on.

    You are asking for simplistic one word answers to questions that are not simplistic in nature. Our social worlds, our culture, our genealogy and our experiences all contribute to make us the people we are. Because no single one of us has experienced exactly the same – we can be similar but we are also unique.

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  70. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I wonder if Judith knows that DNA and genetics show that Maori came from Taiwan ? They are recent immigrants that got here a wee bit before some other seafaring people did, but not by much.

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  71. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Jack5 (2,880) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 11:09 am

    ——————————

    Excuse me, but I didn’t raise the DNA issue – and all I did was attempt to answer those who put questions to me. I shall now ignore them as it clearly seems to upset you so much.

    I will inform the rest of my family who have been tested to establish their relationship to a particular Scottish clan, that the process is wrong – I’m sure the many thousands world wide that have used it will be equally as disappointed. Not to mention those who have established paternity etc.

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  72. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I’ve lived in another country – I didn’t like it, couldn’t cope with the violence and aggressiveness of the people – I came back here. It is that simple.

    Wow it must have been bad. Kiwis are a pretty agro lot. What country was that Judith ?

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  73. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,707) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 11:10 am
    ——————————-

    It doesn’t matter when they got here or from whence they came. They were here before Europeans, and therefore as the ‘owners’ of the land at that time, are internationally recognised as having certain rights.

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  74. Judith (8,465 comments) says:

    Kea (2,708) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 11:13 am
    —————————–

    None of your business – it has nothing to do with Susan Devoy and Jack5 doesn’t like me talking about anything else, so please stop asking questions that aren’t to do with Susan and her appointment. I won’t answer them.

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  75. Dennis Horne (2,238 comments) says:

    @Judith. Okay, Judith, you win. There are no differences between the two groups self-defined Maori and non-Maori, just differences between individuals.

    We don’t need a race relations what’s-it then.

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  76. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    It doesn’t matter when they got here or from whence they came. They were here before Europeans, and therefore as the ‘owners’ of the land at that time, are internationally recognised as having certain rights.

    Ok. So do you support native Germans, Brits, French, Swedes etc having ” certain rights” not extended to other groups ?

    None of your business – it has nothing to do with Susan Devoy and Jack5 doesn’t like me talking about anything else, so please stop asking questions that aren’t to do with Susan and her appointment. I won’t answer them.

    You mentioned it. I gather from your answer it was not Norway or Switzerland then :)

    You are so transparent and such a fake. If you really thought darkies were your equal, then you would only think they require equality, not special treatment.

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  77. Jack5 (4,920 comments) says:

    Judith: Of course DNA tests are useful in establishing paternity. But that is far different from establishing what clans your ancestors were in. DNA tests for clans are rip-offs.

    But three cheers for Devoy. Great sports woman, great mother, and a great Kiwi. She’s ideal for the job.

    Judith, you are bordering on being a troll with your diversion. Or, if you are indeed a woman, should that be trollop?:

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  78. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Believing Dame Susan Devoy is no less qualified for the job than anyone else + agreeing with the scientific consensus that there are no significant biological differences between racists + criticising a self appointed White Guardian of minority interests = white supremacy.

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  79. Black with a Vengeance (1,732 comments) says:

    We’re still at least 2 generations away from darkie equality Kea.

    How many generations did it take to entrench white supremacy and institutionalise racism in NZ?

    Since when did we suddenly become equal in the eyes of the law?

    Just paying lipservice doesn’t change fuck all.

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  80. Kacang (36 comments) says:

    Well, Judith, the current generation will be munted when they turn up at the marae because their solo mothers all put down “unknown” as the father so the current boyfriend didn’t have to pay child support.

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  81. mara (752 comments) says:

    I’m still wondering why such a sensible woman as Devoy would do such a stupid job as Race Relations Commissar. She’s going to piss off large numbers of people whenever she makes a call on such matters. Is she “sensible” enough to know that?

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  82. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    We’re still at least 2 generations away from darkie equality Kea.

    How many generations did it take to entrench white supremacy

    Black with a Vengeance, I see the problem. You have elevated one part of the population to “supremacy”. Change your thinking and the problems will disappear.

    BTW what is your benchmark for claiming white people are superior to you ?

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  83. TimG_Oz (924 comments) says:

    Whilst I find any white supremacist posting distasteful for the obvious reasons, it’s interesting to see Tom Jackson complain after his vilification of Jews last Sunday. Hypocrisy, anyone?

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  84. Black with a Vengeance (1,732 comments) says:

    I know Kea…

    We’re not the equal of whitey…we’re superior.

    As more Pasifikans come to realise this, the paradigm will shift and the natural order will be restored.

    2 more generations is all you got. Make the most of it!!!

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  85. Redbaiter (8,039 comments) says:

    Hey Tom, where is your complaint about the Black Supremacist?

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  86. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Black with a Vengeance (992) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 1:27 pm
    I know Kea…

    We’re not the equal of whitey…we’re superior.

    As more Pasifikans come to realise this, the paradigm will shift and the natural order will be restored.

    2 more generations is all you got. Make the most of it!!!

    ————————————————————————-

    If your “superior” then why all the cry baby stuff about white supremacy ? You can not have it both ways.

    So what happens after 2 generations ? Are you implying that non Pasifikans will suffer some sort of fate ? Please explain…

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  87. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson (370) Says:
    March 24th, 2013 at 11:04 am
    DPF. Are you going to do something about the white supremacist posting here? Considering your background, I would have figured zero tolerance for that crap.

    Who are you talking about ?

    Can’t be me. I am as European as Obama, so I can say what I like about the mud-races and not be a racist :)

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  88. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    We’re not the equal of whitey…we’re superior.

    Yes, history has told us that already. What a hoot!

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  89. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Manolo, I do not consider cultures that are less developed in technology inferior. The problem is they do. When Black with a Vengeance talks of how dispossessed his people are, he is holding modern democratic European civilisation up as a gold standard. Black with a Vengeance wants all the things more developed cultures have, without doing any of the things developed cultures do. When modern civilisation is handed to people on a silver platter it never seems to work out. Witness the appalling situation in all the African run former colonies.

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  90. Bob R (1,357 comments) says:

    @ Kea,

    There is no reason to expect difference cultural and physical environments to favour the same behavioural traits. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence it hasn’t. Genetic change has actually accelerated over the past 10,000 years as groups adapted to and agriculture, population expansion. Different cultures in the forms of state societies, where men had to do more of the labour and there was a reduction in polygamy, the deve would favour different traits for reproductive success. There is evidence of wealth selection in China and the UK. As Steve Hsu, who is involved in the Beijing Genomics Institute’s Cognitive Genomics Project quotes economist Greg Clark on his blog

    “In my recent book, A Farewell to Alms: A Brief Economic History of the World I argue two things. First that all societies remained in a state I label the “Malthusian economy” up until the onset of the Industrial Revolution around 1800. In that state crucially the economic laws governing all human societies before 1800 were those that govern all animal societies. Second that was thus subject to natural selection throughout the Malthusian era, even after the arrival of settled agrarian societies with the Neolithic Revolution.

    The Darwinian struggle that shaped human nature did not end with the Neolithic Revolution but continued right up until the Industrial Revolution. But the arrival of settled agriculture and stable property rights set natural selection on a very different course. It created an accelerated period of evolution, rewarding with reproductive success a new repertoire of human behaviors – patience, self-control, passivity, and hard work – which consequently spread widely.

    And we see in England, from at least 1250, that the kind of people who succeeded in the economic system – who accumulated assets, got skills, got literacy – increased their representation in each generation. Through the long agrarian passage leading up to the Industrial Revolution man was becoming biologically more adapted to the modern economic world. Modern people are thus in part a creation of the market economies that emerged with the Neolithic Revolution. Just as people shaped economies, the pre-industrial economy shaped people. This has left the people of long settled agrarian societies substantially different now from our hunter gatherer ancestors, in terms of culture, and likely also in terms of biology.”

    The BGI study is likely to help resolve these debates about group differences, as noted in the Economist.

    “The BGI was the first outfit to clone pigs, and it has developed a new and more effective way of cloning mammals that might ultimately be applied to humans, if that were ever permitted.

    But the organisation is involved in even more controversial projects. It is about to embark on a search for the genetic underpinning of intelligence. Two thousand Chinese schoolchildren will have 2,000 of their protein-coding genes sampled, and the results correlated with their test scores at school. Though it will cover less than a tenth of the total number of protein-coding genes, it will be the largest-scale examination to date of the idea that differences between individuals’ intelligence scores are partly due to differences in their DNA.

    Dr Yang is also candid about the possibility of the 1,000-genome project revealing systematic geographical differences in human genetics—or, to put it politically incorrectly, racial differences. The differences that have come to light so far are not in sensitive areas such as intelligence. But if his study of schoolchildren does find genes that help control intelligence, a comparison with the results of the 1,000-genome project will be only a mouse-click away.”

    http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2010/06/china-genomics-without-political.html

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  91. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “@ Kea,

    There is no reason to expect difference cultural and physical environments to favour the same behavioural traits. ”

    Agreed. It is that expectation I am arguing against.

    What do think of the ideas put forward in Gun Germs & Steel ?

    I think it is a load of racist crap, but he makes some very interesting points, if you can see past that.

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  92. KevinH (1,160 comments) says:

    Dame Susan Devoys’ appointment as Race Relations Commissioner is an inspired aspirational selection for a number of reasons, firstly because she is a well known New Zealander, a successful career woman, and has credibility and respect. What Dame Susan lacks in hands on experience is more than compensated for with her work for charities and mentoring in sports that has equipped her with the people skills required for the position.
    Dame Susan will add a new dimension and perspective to the role and will interpret the challenges of the position from a no nonsense pragmatic position that will appeal to a broader range of New Zealanders.

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  93. Northland Wahine (659 comments) says:

    Kea…

    Your posting at 8.16pm last night is spot on.

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  94. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine , I think it is important that cultures develop at their own pace. In order for change to be real and enduring, it must happen organically. It is a sad fact that most cultural change has come about through war and occupation. Long after the death and suffering ends, techonology and new ideas continue to benefit future generations.

    Europeans were one of the last major cultural groups to develop writing and used to be a bunch of barbarians running around looking to get pissed on stolen wine and fighting all the time. Exposure to other cultures helped them develop to the levels of technology we see today.

    It really is not helpful to hold anyone up as a gold-standard. Africa may not look too flash, to us, but they were here first, and will probably be the last to leave. It is too soon to say who has it right.

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  95. Northland Wahine (659 comments) says:

    Agrees Kea.

    It’s not about any culture or ethnic group being superior, more intelligent or right. However when you choose to compare with what you don’t have up against what others do, then you become dissatisfied wit your lot.

    So… If you want money and the things it affords you, you work and spend wisely and within your means. If you want your children to be educated, ensure they attend school and follow thru at home. If you want better health, watch what you eat, drink, exercise.

    These things can’t be given to you. Like a child who saves up for his first game or piece of clothing, he appreciates it more because he earned it.

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  96. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine, a number of things conspire to decide the fates of various cultures. Although I regard it as racist, toward Europeans and other technologically advanced societies, Guns Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond explores this in some depth. I disagree with most of his conclusions, but he has some great insights.

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  97. Jack5 (4,920 comments) says:

    FIRST, apologies for continuing this digression from the Devoy topic after criticising Judith for diverting the topic yesterday. Sorry Judith!

    But Kea posted at 9.03am:

    …Europeans were one of the last major cultural groups to develop writing and used to be a bunch of barbarians running around looking to get pissed on stolen wine and fighting all the time…

    You mean North Europeans, Kea. Earliest date for Greeks’ writing so far is 750BC. The Tartaria tablets from Romania suggest earliest European proto-writing, similar to the pictograph images of the Ancient Egyptians, are from the Neothlithic era Vinca culture, and and could be 6000 years old.

    However, just as the concept of race is largely bullshit, civilisations borrow from each other, blend with each other and evolve. The Ancient Greeks may have built their first writing on that of the Phoenicians, for example.

    If it had been feasible and possible for the aboriginal people of Taiwan to have begun their wanderings and colonisation of the Pacific by moving slowly through China, Maori may very well have had a written language when Western settlement began.

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  98. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Jack5 , no argument from me there. I try and keep it simple in my posts and stick to the essential points I want to make.

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  99. RRM (9,670 comments) says:

    Based on an extension of the principle that “I would rather be governed by the first 250 people in the phonebook…” (than by some self-selecting group of shady political journeyman type characters) I can’t say I really have a problem with someone like Susan Devoy taking on this role.

    Let’s face it, there have been some THICK ex-rugby players elevated to positions where people in this country hang on their every word :-P She can’t fail to be head and shoulders above most of those guys…

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