GPs duty is to their patients

July 14th, 2013 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

The HoS reports:

A young woman was refused the birth control pill because she had not yet done her “reproductive job”.

Melissa Pont, 23, said her family practitioner, Dr Joseph Lee, would not renew her pill prescription, instead lecturing her on a baby’s right to live and on using the rhythm method, an unreliable family planning technique that involves having sex only at certain times of the month.

That’s appalling.

I’m all for the right of doctors not to be involved in abortions, on conscience grounds. But to refuse a patient as you think she should be reproducing is appalling behaviour.

The NZ Medical Association said doctors can refuse treatment in non-emergency situations if their beliefs prohibit it – but they are required to refer the patient to another doctor.

Lee was initially reluctant to do that, Pont said, and she was concerned other women in her situation might not have had the confidence to argue back.

Prospective patients should be aware that if you see Dr Lee he may refuse to help you, so best to see another doctor.

Lee, a doctor at Wairau Community Clinic in Blenheim, stood by his views and actions. “I don’t want to interfere with the process of producing life,” the Catholic father-of-two told the Herald on Sunday.

Lee also does not prescribe condoms, and encourages patients as young as 16 to use the rhythm method.

Teen pregnancy might be a girl’s “destiny”, he said, and it was certainly not as bad as same- sex marriage.

Oh Good God. He wants 16 year olds to be getting pregnant, because it was their destiny.

Most Catholic doctors have no problems at not letting their personal beliefs interfere with their jobs. Sadly Dr Lee is not one of them.

The only circumstances in which he would prescribe the contraceptive pill would be if a woman wanted space between pregnancies, or had at least four children.

“I think they’ve already done their reproductive job”.

Hear that women? Don’t stop at three!

Tags:

94 Responses to “GPs duty is to their patients”

  1. MrTips (144 comments) says:

    Oh I don’t know. You could go and get another doctor, which may have not been explained the best to this girl. And no, I’m certainly not going to trust the media reports as to the accuracy of what was said.

    Doctors don’t have to do everything you ask you know David.

    Now take a pill, you sound hysterical.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “Prospective patients should be aware that if you see Dr Lee he may refuse to help you, so best to see another doctor.”

    And that should be the end of it.

    Why subject this man to ridicule and public odium merely for acting according to what he believes.

    Its not as if he is doing anyone any harm. His patient is quite free to go to another doctor.

    Its clear the problem is not what the doctor has done but that he dares to openly confront the political beliefs of liberals/ progressives.

    It is this open rebellion that is the real reason he must be ridiculed and pilloried.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 11 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    What is it with Catholicism and the “duty” to produce as many babies as possible? It’s fucking retarded, especially now when the world’s population tops 7 billion.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Zebulon (68 comments) says:

    I am reasonably conservative but this doctor is wrong. He works for a public health organisation. Government money should not be used to push personal moral beliefs in a health care setting. This doctor is unfit for his present government funded job.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. bc (1,334 comments) says:

    I’m with DPF on this one- absolutely apalling for a GP to put their religious beliefs before their obligation to their patients.
    It’s all very well for MrTips and Redbaiter to talk about freedom of choice and just go to another doctor, but many small communities only have one GP. Besides why should they go to another doctor – is it to much to expect that your doctor does their job!

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “Government money should not be used to push personal moral beliefs in a health care setting.”

    You have just highlighted one of the main reasons why government ownership of health or any service is completely wrong.

    To decree that doctors must give up their beliefs before they can work for the state is a command that demonstrates why progressives and communists are so frequently kissing cousins.

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Archer (170 comments) says:

    I like how he thinks it is everyone’s duty not to prevent pregnancies due to his religious beliefs… until you have 4 children then suddenly he’s allowed to ignore those religious beliefs.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    I’m all for the right of doctors not to be involved in abortions, on conscience grounds.

    Why? Doesn’t this contradict the title of your post?

    Why should a doctor be able to force someone to hunt around just because she wants a simple procedure to end her pregnancy? (And, no, it’s not “killing babies”.)

    If a patient wants an abortion, the doctor should refer her – at least while that doctor is receiving government funding for the patient.

    If the GP was completely private (not receiving capitation or any other public funding) then I’d completely support his right to say no to pills, contraception and whatever. But he’s being paid by the government to provide a service – he needs to do it.

    If the doctor doesn’t want to prescribe pills or refer for termination, he can get another job, or refuse all funding.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. bc (1,334 comments) says:

    Exactly right, Zebulon. (cool name by the way, sounds like something out of a cheesy sci-fi movie!)

    If the doctor wants to push his religious agenda then he should go and start his own private practice. Otherwise, do his job!

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Judith (7,626 comments) says:

    This raises all sorts of issues – especially as in many NZ towns and cities there is a shortage of GP’s. One cannot simply pick and choose who they see.

    I know of a case, where a woman in her mid-sixties was told by her GP that blood pressure medication she had been on for the past 13 years was no longer needed – all she had to do was put her faith in god and he would calm her, allowing her pressure to be controlled. She died of a massive heart attack two weeks later.

    When the family questioned the doctor, his answer was that God had a different plan and should not be questioned.

    Morality is not and should not be decided by Doctors – especially when there is little choice for patients to go ‘elsewhere’. If a doctor cannot or will not cover the ‘legal’ requirements of the patient, then they should be made to refer to someone that can.

    Making a woman have a child, when they don’t want to, can be a disaster, not just for herself, but also for the child.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    A lot of the comments here seem to be forgetting the fact that NZ has a shortage of doctors and needs to be grateful for the presence of those who deign to work in such a corrupt system.

    They can all get much better pay and conditions in the real world, as opposed to socialist/progrressive la la land. That’s why many of our doctors have left the country to be replaced by immigrants from non-western countries.

    And even these immigrants are only using experience in NZ as a stepping stone to employment in more advanced western countries with more rigorous entry standards.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “Morality is not and should not be decided by Doctors”

    Bullshit.

    Doctors can do/ say as they like. You don’t like their opinions, get another doctor.

    And fuck the prog state dictators.

    This place gets more like the old Soviet Union every day.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 10 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Huevon (188 comments) says:

    My wife and I are Catholic and we practice natural family planning. I assure you that this method is very reliable (my wife is easily able to predict when she is ovulating), chemical-free and, most importantly, teaches us to respect each other and strengthens our marriage.

    I applaud this doctor for standing up for his beliefs and the best interests of his patients.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 11 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    Doctors can do/ say as they like. You don’t like their opinions, get another doctor.

    True. But they’ll have to stop accepting state funding if they want to do so.

    If they don’t like their job, for which they are mostly paid by the state, they can get another job.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    My wife and I are Catholic and we practice natural family planning.

    What about the sperm that are absorbed into your body when they’re not used? Aren’t they all a “potential life”? And isn’t sex when you’re not planning procreation wrong? Isn’t what you’re doing… cheating?

    Oh, and “chemical free”. Are you some sort of hippie too?

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. TheContrarian (1,074 comments) says:

    “I applaud this doctor for standing up for his beliefs and the best interests of his patients.”

    How is this in the best interests of his patients?

    Vote: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “If they don’t like their job, for which they are mostly paid by the state, they can get another job.”

    Or they can say fuck you to the prog state dictators/ totalitiarians and do what they think is right.

    Then the progs can fire them.

    So do it. Fire the guy.

    See where that gets you.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. EmmaChisit (18 comments) says:

    LIke many teachers, Docters suffer the GOD complex, ie they think that they have a godlike status as they know whats best.
    It can be understood in smaller towns as most citizens will have limited choice and therefore to the Docters opinion. This will enforce the Doctors self belief that they are Omniscience.

    I suggest that the “managers”of this Doctor have failed in their duty to their customers in allowing substandard performance of said Docter and that either he change his ways or meet the employment criteria.

    Imagine a bricklayer only using half bricks because of his religious beliefs! Sound stupid. No more stupid than this reported Doctor.

    As an aside, isnt it great that the Internet (google) can free the population at large to increase their knowlege on things medical.

    My “progressive”, GP is happy for his patients to google it and often gives me a reference. OR discusses my misunderstanding from some googled comment.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Manolo (13,375 comments) says:

    Huevon, ¿estás huevón?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “How is this in the best interests of his patients?”

    He’s obviously got a much wider and wiser view than you.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. Judith (7,626 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (3,883) Says:
    July 14th, 2013 at 11:29 am
    —————————

    As pointed out – there is a shortage of doctors. One simply cannot just get another doctor in many areas.

    If a doctor cannot due to their own morality, provide the patient with what they want (legally), then the doctor should, in the interests of their patience well-being, make a referral to someone that can.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Warren Murray (277 comments) says:

    I don’t quite understand how the good doctor leans one way, which is to oppose birth control until a woman has had four children, then its OK?

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    Redbaiter:

    So do it. Fire the guy.

    I would – I’d pull all state funding from the guy. He’s not doing his job.

    Our government and the Medical Council would be too gutless.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Judith (7,626 comments) says:

    Huevon (8) Says:
    July 14th, 2013 at 11:32 am
    My wife and I are Catholic and we practice natural family planning. I assure you that this method is very reliable (my wife is easily able to predict when she is ovulating), chemical-free and, most importantly, teaches us to respect each other and strengthens our marriage.

    I applaud this doctor for standing up for his beliefs and the best interests of his patients.

    —————————————–

    Good on you! But talk about boring – takes the fun out of it.
    “How about a roll in the hay” – “sure honey – thursday should be fine”

    And, not all women are able to tell when they are ovulating, or ovulate in a regular pattern, just as not all men are able to control ejaculation. But I’m sure no one needs a lesson on that.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “I would – I’d pull all state funding from the guy.”

    Your all powerful secular progressive state would be the loser. Health professionals are in demand in small state centers. They’re wanted desperately all over the world.

    The state would deprive its citizens of health care, all for the sake of its ideological war against Christianity

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. TheContrarian (1,074 comments) says:

    “He’s obviously got a much wider and wiser view than you.”

    Yeah that answered nothing.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Andrei (2,504 comments) says:

    Beat up of the day – a Catholic doctor following Church teaching and on a matter so sacred to the progressives. That will never do. So in best progressive tradition make a scene!

    For goodness sakes it isn’t hard to get a prescription for the fucking pill, the health services just about hand them out like candy.

    And if you don’t like what your doctor or what he/she/it stands for go somewhere else which is what normal people do

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. TheContrarian (1,074 comments) says:

    “He told the paper teen pregnancy might be a girl’s “destiny”. ”

    Yeah, right. Fuck this guy.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “Yeah that answered nothing.”

    That is because your question asked nothing, and ignored the rational arguments that underpin this doctor’s views. You could have made a case against them, but all you did was declare him wrong.

    (I concede that being a half educated prog, you probably can’t understand what the doctor’s arguments might be.)

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. TheContrarian (1,074 comments) says:

    “That is because your question asked nothing”

    No it asked a very specific question. How is this in the best interests of his patients?

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Monique Angel (252 comments) says:

    In the workplace: Doctor first. Catholic 2nd.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. holysheet (268 comments) says:

    Who wants a bet that this Dr is a tyke boer from south africa?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “Who wants a bet that this Dr is a tyke boer from south africa?”

    I do. I’ll have $5000 on that he’s not a Boer from SA right now.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    To those who supported this man letting his personal beliefs override his humanist duty as a doctor, would you be equally as supportive if he had refused on Sharia principles? Or any number of other religions or quasi-religions such as Scientology?

    Because if not, you can begin to see the wisdom of putting the patient’s interests ahead of questions of faith.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. Huevon (188 comments) says:

    @ tristanb, and the other doubters

    It isn’t “cheating” for a Catholic to have sex when you’re not planning a pregnancy. Obviously, sex is part of procreation, but it is also about intimacy and pleasure (what we Catholics refer to as the “unitive” aspect). If you only have procreation and no unity then sex is something less than what it is supposed to be. Likewise, if you only have unity and no procreation. You are denying a fundamental aspect what you are doing. That’s why it *is* cheating is to use contraception – you are negating the procreative aspect of sex, so sex becomes something less than what it is supposed to be.

    I assure you that this isn’t just some abstract philosophy. Look, I’m no saint ok. I had girlfriends and one night stands before I met my wife and before I rediscovered my faith. Although I had plenty of it (and, believe me, if you can do it, I’ve done it), the sex was never really satisfying. I’m sure I’m not the only one out there who has laid in a bed next to a strange woman thinking “is this it?” Believe me, now in my marriage it is deep and real and I can’t really explain it in words, but my marriage is awesome and NFP has been a big contributor to that.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    FFS the tub thumping fundies who believe their archaic belief in a bronze age superstition should be state sanctioned or at the least allowed to be pedaled by state service providers come out of the closet again when bronze age superstitious idiocy is pointed out again. Ground hog day much.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “To those who supported this man letting his personal beliefs override his humanist duty as a doctor, would you be equally as supportive if he had refused on Sharia principles?”

    Of course I would. Its the doctors personal choice as an individual, and if I don’t agree, in accordance with my personal views as an individual I GET ANOTHER DOCTOR.

    Man, I’ve really had it up to here with you Soviet Union style big totalitarian state secular progressives.

    Go watch Doctor Zhivago and learn something.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    @Huevon.
    I don’t have any problem with what you’re doing, and I’m glad you’re enjoying it. But the implication is that other people should be happy with your approach and not require additional contraception.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    Hey Holysheet- you can put that $5000 in the poor box at your local church.

    Post on Kiwiblog when you’ve done it.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    Redbaiter, I own a copy of Doctor Zhivago on DVD already. Any other suggestions? :)

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. holysheet (268 comments) says:

    anyone but the local tyke one? or would that be classed as discriminating against that stupid religion over all the other stupid religions?
    How am I to choose?.
    In my best interest of not being as seen to being discriminatory and being dragged before the huperopper rights commission (See another man ban) I will not make that donation. Sorry RB but I wouln’t trust the priest not to use the money to pay off all the legal fees of all the kiddy fiddlers hiding behind the church. How much money left in the poor box actually gets to the place it was intended for?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Colville (2,081 comments) says:

    This quack should be thrown into the street. If Dr Lee wants to force his stone age views on women let him set up shop in private practice away from state funding. No way do I want my taxes paying for this fucktard to spout his skydaddy dogma at unsuspecting vunerable women.

    and ‘baiter …. you have really surpassed yourself on this thread. You have really gone the full fundie retard!

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    On the other side of the planet, the Catholic Church for years has blocked the government of the Philippines (fertility rate: 3.3 children per woman, second highest in eastern Asia) from providing free family planning services to all who seek them. Although President Benigno Aquino recently signed a bill to do just that, the Church has taken the matter to the country’s Supreme Court. The court put a hold on the law’s implementation prior to its review, and most of the justices are reported to be sympathetic to the bishops’ opposition to modern contraception
    http://e360.yale.edu/feature/our_overcrowded_planet_a_failure_of_family_planning/2666/

    it’s more of a problem when the churches (Holy Romans/Moslems) influence national policy.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    When it comes to social legislation like limiting the dpb after x children it would be an RC/ left of left scrum opposing it.
    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2011/03/08/the-welfare-working-group-and-the-injection/

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    Exactly, hj. The RCChurch has been responsible for keeping divorce law out that country too (now only one of two countries remaining – the other being the Vatican itself). Fucking bonkers.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. muggins (2,983 comments) says:

    This is unbelievable.
    However, there is nothing to stop that young woman buying condoms and insisting that her partner/partners wear one if he wants to have sex.
    Of course condoms are not 100% safe but if there is a mishap there is always the morning after pill to fall back on.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    Kiwi women should not be allowed to undermine the Sanctity of Life like slaveowners did!

    Those who seek to justify the killing of unborn babies resort to all sorts of myths and falsehoods to make their case and assuage their conscience. They in fact have to live in a world of lies and misinformation in order to defend their willingness to destroy the unborn, and make that defence seem palatable.

    Denying the humanity and personhood of the unborn child is of course one main way in which they proceed. And that is always the case with those who seek to oppress others:

    They seek to dehumanise the victims. Slave owners dehumanised blacks, just as baby-killers dehumanise the unborn. :cool:

    Thus it is customary to hear that the unborn baby is just a blob of cells.

    Show me the heroes of the abortion movement. Show me their selflessness.

    Show me the sacrifices they’ve made. Show me what they’ve done to inspire conversion, dedication, or love.

    Victory is inevitable. We are on a slow, excruciating crawl toward victory. But it is progress nonetheless. I’m proud to be on the winning side. Keep praying. Keep fighting.

    I cannot add much more to that. We are winning. We are making real gains here. Yes it is a hard, long slog, but we must never give up. We owe it to the unborn to keep fighting.

    What William Wilberforce said about the slave trade we can equally say of the baby-killing trade:

    ‎”Never, never will we desist till we…extinguish every trace of this bloody traffic, of which our posterity, looking back to the history of these enlightened times will scarce believe that it has been suffered to exist so long a disgrace and dishonor to this country.”

    http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2013/07/13/does-the-unborn-child-feel-pain-in-an-abortion/

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    and ‘baiter …. you have really surpassed yourself on this thread. You have really gone the full fundie retard!

    Its nothing to do with fundamental Christianity.

    I am supporting every person’s right to freedom of speech and religion.

    I am opposing big all powerful government.

    I am opposing government funded health care over private health care.

    You think its about religion because you’re reacting in just the way your Marxist masters have programmed you to react.

    I support the idea of a civil society.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “Sorry RB but I wouln’t trust the priest not to use the money to pay off all the legal fees of all the kiddy fiddlers hiding behind the church.”

    OK, so seeing within your cowardly smear of a lot of good people, you conceded you owe the money, then give it to a children’s hospital.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    Why should I ,a tax payer,be funding this girls’ ongoing sexual and private activities?This isn’t a health matter,it’s lifestyle.

    If she wants to fuck,fine, but don’t ask the taxpayer to fund her fucking activities.

    And don’t tell me it’s cheaper than having a bunch of unloved little bastards running around. That’s a consequence of her actions,she or the sperm donor should be paying for prevention or keep thereof.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “Why should I ,a tax payer,be funding this girls’ ongoing sexual and private activities?”

    Because the prog religion and its advocates in government say you shall.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Alan Wilkinson (1,816 comments) says:

    This guy should have a large notice on his front door:

    “Health Warning: Consulting this doctor may result in an unwanted pregnancy”.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    This girl should have a large notice on her forehead:

    Pumping me will result in taxpayer liabilities.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. Yvette (2,692 comments) says:

    Melissa Pont was also unhappy that this occurred after waiting an hour to see the doctor.
    The report does not say if a fee was charged for a ‘service’ not received.
    Wairau Community Clinic lists Dr Lee as a Locum which may mean his ‘policy’ is neither listed on websites or in the practice for patients to know his views in advance.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. chiz (1,119 comments) says:

    bc:Exactly right, Zebulon. (cool name by the way, sounds like something out of a cheesy sci-fi movie!)

    Zebulon was one of the main characters in the Nightwatch and Daywatch movies.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Notice should read….

    Pumping me will result in taxpayer liabilities because I consulted an idiot doctor who believes in a mythical being.

    FIFY

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    That’s a laff that is.

    Nobody is so much to blame for “taxpayer liabilities” as yourself and your dumb ideas on moral relativity. Ideas that have lost generations to broken families, fatherless children, welfare dependent mothers and all of the other wreckage that such ideas bring with them. And not one iota of shame to be observed amongst it all.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    I remember when men got a woman pregnant and when you heard about it it was like OMG sex once with someone you hardly know and you have to pay for bringing up the child , whereas now “where’s my state house”?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    “I am supporting every person’s right to freedom of speech and religion.”

    Another Redbaiter lie.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    The doctor does have a point:

    This is not a matter of medicine but morality.

    Monash University conducted a report a while back about infertility.

    Acouple of the main points that came out of it were these:

    “…It is immoral for women to make their fertility difficult by delaying it and then expecting the taxpayer to fund the cost of IVF ect…….this situation is currently creating a new branch of medicine……that also should not be funded by taxpayers……the excuse given for not having children earlier is ‘social pressures’……whatever they are…….”

    And it’s true – most women who have fertility problems are older women – not those who are 20.

    Being on the pill -at the wrong age- is of course a case of being irresponsable, if of course you do want kids that is. The arguement that you want kids -but just not now- is o.k for 18ylds – but not 28ylds.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Contraceptive use is a lifestyle choice. The girl is not going to die if she doesn’t get the pill, nor is her health going to be adversely affected in the slightest. She’s better off not using it for health reasons and as a test of love for the man that she might want to spend the rest of her life with. If he really loves her, he will love any children that come of their union. Otherwise he needs to stay the hell away.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Lucia demonstrating once again just how out of touch with reality the evil Catholic church is.

    Tell me Lucia, why is it that you insist on telling the rest of us how to live?

    It’s not as if the Catholic church has any great moral authority to do so is it.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Men just want women taking contraception so that they can have sex without being responsible for the woman or her children. Men today are just big children, incapable of doing what their fathers did and contraception makes that all possible. Woe betide anyone who challenges the sexual availability of women on the pill. And women who happen to get pregnant need to either kill their own babies or live alone, raising children that men have walked away from. We get called evil, when in reality, those who want to use for their own selfish pleasure are the evil ones.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Women who take the contraceptive pill choose less masculine men, study reveals

    Well, that might explain why some men feel threatened by any sort of denial of contraception to women.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Lucia,

    Goodness me!, I almost don’t know where to start.

    “Men just want women taking contraception so that they can have sex without being responsible for the woman or her children”

    Who the hell are you to say what men think?, any man who claimed to know how a female thought would be roundly attacked by the feminazi element. Might it be that females are the ones making decisions re their own reproductive system, you seem to suggest that females are powerless and unable to say “no” so they have to take contraception because all men are effectively rapists.

    ” Men today are just big children, incapable of doing what their fathers did and contraception makes that all possible. ”

    Here you demonstrate your ever growing ignorance and ever growing capacity to tell bare faced lies. Men and woman have as much sex today as they did years ago, pre contraception they used the risky withdrawal method. It has nothing to do with men today being “big children”, indeed men today show an amazing capacity to think for themselves, hence the healthy and ever increasing number of atheists.

    At least you recognize one fact, the Catholic church is indeed evil (as are you given your insistence that those childless couples who have IVF treatment are sinners). No finer example of this evilness is the Catholic church’s insistence that condoms are worse than AIDS.
    You (and the Catholic church) make the laughable claim that the church is one “of and for the poor” when the reality is that this claim is another in the long lies of Catholicism, if you and the church really wanted to cure poverty then the number one thing you could do for the worlds poor is to give all females the ability to control their own reproductive system. Yet the disgusting Catholic church refuses to agree with this most reasonable idea.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    Lucia, you are just rationalising the church’s irrational stance against contraception. Please stay out of our bedrooms.

    Edit: Or rather, the cynic in me thinks it’s perfectly rational – the church simply wants lots of good little catholics to feel guilty and supply church coffers.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    adze

    Don’t forget that the church also needs a fresh supply of little boys and girls to rape and sodomise.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. Monique Angel (252 comments) says:

    An element of what Lucia is saying is that it sucks that women and babies are abandoned. Which they are and this does suck. And if men were men (and women were women ) and both fought for the rights of the underdog then this would not happen.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Adze, you’d rather the government in your wallet, paying for all those abandoned women and children?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    Lucia, I’d rather the government was in for a smaller amount, than for the much greater cost, not to mention social harm that comes from unwanted children.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    And frankly, how can the church be against both contraception and abortion? It is truly insane.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    bigot bruv and nastyka are here,

    There goes the thread.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Kowtow does not like the truth.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. RVV (1 comment) says:

    Let us lay out the facts.World poluation is currently estimated to be around 7 billion. We are running out of fossil fuels. We are running out of space, we are running out of food, we are running out of time. Our world was not made to sustain the amount of people we have, each living the lifestyle we have. And what we are doing is killing ourselves. Now tell me, if each couple has four children, we have was is called an exponential increase in population, where the population figure for each sequential generation doubles. And yet, when we try to stop this, ei through contraception or abortion or downright refusal to give birth, we become the centre of controversy and anger. We are called selfish, murderers even. This coming from one so vulgar as to contribute to the exponential figure. The way we’re going now, Earth will be an overpopulated scrapyard. And when we are living like sardines in a can, eating filth off the floor trying to provide for you and your four starving children, at least you can say you stuck to your belief.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    John 18;38

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. Rajiv (29 comments) says:

    Just wrote this at The Standard and noticed DPF has done a post! So here we go…..:

    It is outrageous, unprofessional and depraved of this “Doctor” to refuse any kind of contraceptives (including condoms) to people who depend on his professional services. Recommending “rhythm method” is adding insult to injury!

    Not that you’re interested or care, but I would like to add that there is nothing “Biblical” and “moral” about Catholic Church’s official position on contraceptives. Rather, it is a political matter for the Church and this is how they exert their power. Apparently, “pro-life” slogan has an emotional (and political) appeal and they exploit it to maximum.

    As another commenter said, unwanted children suffer horrors of neglectful upbringing and abuse. In countries like the Philippines Catholic ban on contraceptives has led to catastrophic population increase that cannot be sustained or fed properly.

    It is immoral to force women–and men– to produce children as if they are animals in a Catholic pen. But thankfully, such deranged and unprofessional Catholics as Dr. Lee are in minority.

    Most enlightened Catholics do not agree with the Church’s official position and openly defy it. I say Amen to that.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    Rajiv, they’d love that at the Standard.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    Actually just read that thread Rajiv.

    A large percentage of Kiwiblog commenters and Standard commenters speaking as one.

    So we have the self professed “right” in full agreement with the self professed left.

    And yet these so called rightists still cannot hear any alarm bells ringing.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Rajiv (29 comments) says:

    Redbaiter,

    There are certain issues where it would be stupid to side exclusively with “Left” or “Right”. I also find it amusing that so many “right wing” people read The Standard’s posts. I didn’t even know that it existed until a week ago. In the end, what matters is not huddling together in a political ghetto, but listening to a diversity of opinions and exercise one’s common sense.

    In my opinion that sanctimonious “Doctor’s” action was so horrendously stupid and unprofessional that it merits condemnation from all sides.

    If he believes in this anti-contraceptive thing to a degree that he would endanger his patient’s life and liberty then I suggest he should quit the medical profession and join Catholic priesthood (As a good Catholic, He must know the Church is crying out to fill vacant Priest positions).

    On the other NARROW end of the spectrum there are geniuses like Lucia Maria. I am sure Virgin Mary came into her vision lately and asked her to post that comment. But I will exercise my right to disagree and strongly object to her half-baked cuckoo theories.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Rajiv,

    How on earth would the Catholic doctor endanger his patient’s life and liberty by not prescribing contraception?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. Rajiv (29 comments) says:

    Please note, that the Catholic “doctor” also refuses to prescribe condoms and asks people to use “rhythm method” as the only contraceptive.

    Maybe no Vatican encyclical has informed you yet that having unprotected sex can lead not only to unwanted pregnancies but also sexually transmitted diseases like: Chlamydia, Gonorrhea, Trichomoniasis and HIV AIDS. Take you pick.

    Furthermore, as a woman mentions in the comments section of this post, (http://thestandard.org.nz/conscience-exceptions-are-for-people-with-a-conscience/ )

    “Oral contraception is used to help prevent recurring ovarian cysts in some of us. And for the record, it also reduces the risk of ovarian cancer.”

    I personally know many women who take oral contraceptives to manage their hormonal chronic illnesses, like Endometriosis.

    So, Catholic church’s official ban on both condoms and oral contraceptives is a serious danger to human health and liberty on this planet.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “In my opinion that sanctimonious “Doctor’s” action was so horrendously stupid and unprofessional that it merits condemnation from all sides.”

    You’re of course welcome to that opinion and I as much as I disagree with it, I am glad you have the opportunity to express it. The fact that the self professed right on Kwiblog agree with the rabid communists who write on the standard highlights the insular political state of NZers in general who do not understand how the communists have captured this country. They wish it had not been captured, but they do not know how it happened or how to break free.

    It has in fact been the left’s application of cultural Marxism that has earned them almost totalitarian like control of the NZ political narrative. My guess is that Doctor Lee knows this, and is trying to do his bit to restore NZ to a place of freedom.

    Therefore I defend his right to express his own opinions and not be intimidated by an out of control state or the condemnation of a population that due to the boiling frog principle, does not even know what ails it.

    Dr Lee is a free man, and he wants you too to be free. You just cannot see it because you have been so thoroughly immersed in cultural Marxism.

    Your nasty words to Lucia Maria too are completely uncalled for. She is a mother of young children and has more courage in her little finger than most of the cowardly whinging whining self jailing progs on this blog have in their whole bodies.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. Rajiv (29 comments) says:

    If cultural Marxists have a totalitarian control over NZ political narrative then how come Labour Party has pathetic 30-something MPs in Parliament? New Zealand voters are much smarter than you give them credit for. They want sound policies and sound economy and at the same time they do not want to turn New Zealand into “Switzerland of South Pacific” as some nutter once proudly called New Zealand.

    Dr. Lee has no right to treat his patients according to his religious/political convictions. Next thing we will have Christian Scientist doctor who will refuse to medicate any patient who is in severe pain. And then we will have Jehovah’s Witness doctor who will refuse a blood transfusion to a dying man. This is not freedom. This is insanity.

    I congratulate Lucia Maria on making babies. But she has no right to force or manipulate other women to do the same against their wishes.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. Fentex (867 comments) says:

    If it’s true that a doctor advised a patient to use the rythym method as contraception in lieu of providing actual effective contraception then I think there is an argument it was malpractice.

    Personally I don’t think it’s acceptable for doctors to withhold properly sought effective and safe medication. His duty was to ensure use of the contraceptive was safe within published guidelines for the woman and that being the case to provide her requested prescription. That is he was doing the job of providing medical, not ethical, services.

    Otherwise his behaviour is no morally different from any public establishment turning away people for odious reasons, such as race, religion or gender as we properly outlaw in this country.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Rajiv,

    There is no need to go to a doctor to get a prescription for condoms when they are freely available for sale at supermarkets and chemists. It won’t be long before birth control pills are sold over the counter, bypassing the need for a doctor. Then we’ll see Catholic pharamacists and supermarket owners being pilloried in the media for refusing to stock such items instead.

    Condom mythology aside, condoms are not 100% protective against Chlamydia, Gonorrhea, Trichomoniasis and HIV AIDS. The only sure way to avoid these diseases is to not be promiscuous and wait until marriage before having sex.

    Ovarian cysts and Endometriosis can both be far better managed by diet, exercise and natural progesterone than anything the birth control pill can do, so those women that think they need oral contraception are being mislead by lazy medical professionals who don’t want to really help them get healthy again, and instead mask their problems with drugs.

    I do have to correct Redbaiter on the age of my children, as they are not that young anymore (the youngest is 12), and I do wish I could make more babies, but that does not look like it is going to be. I’m quite happy to warn younger women, however, that it’s better to have your babies young as you have more energy and you’re physically healthier. It’s also better to have more than less, as very few ever regret each unique person that they create, but to have none or just one or two is not something that you can correct when you get older. Older women have every right to tell younger women what they ought to be doing based on their own life experience.

    Likewise, doctors have every right to refuse treatment to patients that they consider to be immoral. Once the State starts forcing doctors to act against their consciences, then it’s not that big a step to the horrors of Auschwitz. As a Pole, and as the child of parents who suffered under both Nazi and Communist regimes, I do not say this lightly.

    You obviously do not consider oral contraception to be immoral, and the taking of human life to be immoral (oral contraceptives work as abortifacients) , but thankfully there are people that do, and they might just be the ones to be speaking up for you when you are old and frail and of no use to anyone, sitting in a rest home taking up resources, and slated for euthanasia to put you out of everyone’s misery.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    “You obviously do not consider oral contraception to be immoral, and the taking of human life to be immoral (oral contraceptives work as abortifacients) ”

    WARNING: MOONBAT ALERT!

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. Redbaiter (7,628 comments) says:

    “If cultural Marxists have a totalitarian control over NZ political narrative then how come Labour Party has pathetic 30-something MPs in Parliament?”

    Because National is as culturally Marxist as Labour.

    “But she has no right to force or manipulate other women to do the same against their wishes.”

    I see no indication of Lucia doing anything like that. Its weird that you apparently do.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    I listened to “pro-life” advocate Ken Orr on RNZ news this morning. Bloody hell he had a shocker of an interview. He stumbled around until finally claiming that “the divine purpose” of sex was to make babies only. What a loon.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. BlairM (2,287 comments) says:

    The doctor has every right to practice medicine according to his beliefs. But I also have every right to say they are ludicrous.

    There’s nothing immoral about contraception in and of itself. Nothing at all. But for some reason Pope Paul VI decided he didn’t like it, and Catholics have been tying themselves in knots trying to logically justify their stance ever since. Sadly, it’s one of the many problems created by having a Pope decide what is a sin.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Redbaiter,

    He’s most likely threatened by my ideas, therefore sees a much higher level of coercion in them than there actually is.

    Adze,

    The divine purpose of sex IS to make babies AND to join a man and woman together for life. The act is the physical vow, and if it is contracepted then it is a lie and makes a mockery of the whole thing.

    Edited to add: Blair, not really tying ourselves in knots over it. It’s just that most Catholics don’t get it either.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. adze (1,866 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria that is your opinion only, or at least one co-opted from a very old institution, and not particularly coherent.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Lucia

    “The divine purpose of sex IS to make babies AND to join a man and woman together for life”

    So how do you explain the hundreds of Catholic priests who rape and sodomise children?

    Again Lucia, I ask you what moral right you have to try and force your fucked up way of living upon the rest of us?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    “….So how do you explain the hundreds of Catholic priests who rape and sodomise children?…”

    Like this idiot:

    1% of priests are not priests at all – but gay and/or child abusers.

    Using ‘hundreds’ to make a case. Fool.

    BTW – since when was sodomy sex? You really think big bigot that gays have coitus? lol. :cool:

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Goodness me Harriet, you’re not really very bright are you.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.