General Debate 29 June 2014

June 29th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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254 Responses to “General Debate 29 June 2014”

  1. Left Right and Centre (2,975 comments) says:

    Is this dodgy ?

    I see what change I’ve got as train guard nears me. He sees I’ve got two $2 coins and a few small coins or a $20 note for a $5.50 fare. He says he’ll take the coins and gives me a $4 ticket.

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  2. singularian (21 comments) says:

    LRC – Kiwi way, thats why we like us.

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  3. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    For fuck’s sake…The media adulation continues-

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11283868

    As I’ve said before- This dropkick is going to get one hell of a fright if he ever grows up and joins the workforce
    “But..But I’m Lucan! I don’t DO rules man…”
    *Assuming that he doesn’t just go straight into Politics with Greens or Mana…He is our own “Martin Luther King” after all!

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  4. mister nui (1,027 comments) says:

    Does anyone know what dolphins eat?

    I’ve got my long line ready, complete with 55 hooks, but just not sure what bait I need to use…

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  5. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    Kiwi ingenuity:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/10925575/Remote-control-helicopter-herds-sheep-in-New-Zealand.html

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  6. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    John Key was pushed by Patrick Gower on The Nation to say “one good thing that he’s done this year” (about Colin Craig). He didn’t come up with anything good to say about Conservatives apart from the fact that they might help National form a government.

    Let’s look at it this way then. Colin Craig, tell me one good thing that he’s done this year?

    Well I don’t want to critique his performance because that’s just simply not my job.

    No, but it’s not a critique it’s, what’s one good thing you’ve seen him do?

    Well not so sure that’s really the answer that I need to look for I mean the answer is –

    But it is if you want to do a deal with him you’ve got to be able to say this is – here’s something good that he’s done.

    Well he has a legitimate voice for some New Zealanders. It might be a position that’s quite a far away from me when it comes to social issues but there are plenty of New Zealanders that would support his view on smacking or gay marriage or whatever it might be. It’s not where I’m at personally but I understand that position.

    But you can’t actually name something that you’ve seen and then you’ve gone ‘hey that’s pretty good’.

    I don’t follow everything he does but what I’m saying to you is that we live in a world where we have to put together 61 seats. Realistically could we work with him if we go into Parliament? Let’s just argue, he either wins a seat or he gets 5%, the answer is yes I think we could because we’ve worked with lots of other different parties as well.

    In the meantime Conservatives keep criticising National and say “It’s Time To Stand for Something”.

    Stand for what? A manky marriage of incompatible political convenience?

    Key coy on Conservative accommodations

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  7. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    Why I can’t be both an economist and a liberal.

    “In today’s America, I can’t be both an economist and a liberal.

    Economists should be bound ​by ​facts and reason. And I can’t do that and embrace liberal positions on the minimum wage, climate change and gender discrimination.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/27/why-cant-be-both-economist-and-liberal/

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  8. Simon (720 comments) says:

    No it isnt dodgy. The $5.5 fare doesnt matter as it will never cover the costs and make a return on investment for the running of a train service. The correct fare should be more than $25 but then no one would take the train.

    The guy taking the ticket knows fail rail is what is really dodgy and it just doesn’t matter what he takes off you.

    The train fare transaction like the train service is just a Statist fantasy world. Give him $2 next time.

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  9. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    “Stand for what? A manky marriage of incompatible political convenience?”

    They are hardly incompatible. While there are some differences, such as asset sales, there is also a lot they have in common.

    For National the maths are clear. The latest poll has ACT and UF on 0.4 and 0.0 respectively, and the Conservatives on 2.8.

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out which party is useful to them.

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  10. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    I’ve got my long line ready, complete with 55 hooks, but just not sure what bait I need to use…

    Hur, hur hur. Tell you what, why not get a nice sharp hook, stick it through a cow’s mouth and drag it around a paddock for a couple of days ’til it dies of exhaustion seeing as tortured flesh is what you’re in to.

    Or fish up a nice shark, cut off its fin and chuck it back alive so it can swim rudderless ’til it dies of starvation.

    Hur hur hur.

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  11. hj (6,991 comments) says:

    @ Pete George
    keep away from Colin Craig (mind your own business)!

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  12. Paulus (2,626 comments) says:

    I see that the MV “Rena” accident in Tauranga is now trying to made part of the Treaty of Waitangi settlement.

    Did not know that the Maori had power boats after all but we now know learn differently after some 170 odd years.

    I know they invented the world but this is ridiculous – as usual money grabbing.

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  13. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    Tolstoy’s pain: Why atheism leads to despair.

    “In his book The Gospel in Brief, Leo Tolstoy wrote about a personal crisis he underwent around the age of fifty. It was a crisis that nearly claimed his life:

    “Fifty years after my birth, having asked myself and all the wise ones in my circle who I am and what the purpose of my life is, I received the answer that I am an accidental clutter of parts that there is no purpose in life… I fell into despair and wanted to kill myself.”

    Tolstoy’s long season of despair was one the great trials of his life. Things became so dire that he stopped going hunting for fear he could not resist the urge to shoot himself while out in the woods.

    The root cause of Tolstoy’s anguish could be easily pinpointed – his predicament was brought on by his atheism. It could not have been otherwise, because despair is the inevitable destiny of every clear-thinking person who subscribes to this worldview.

    If atheism is true life is devoid of meaning or purpose. We are here for a blip of time and then we die. All we do in our lives – all our efforts and aspirations – are completely meaningless. It does not even matter whether one is a good person or a bad person. Ultimately, it really makes no difference whether you are a Mother Theresa or an Adolf Hitler. They both died and ceased to exist and soon will also everyone whose lives they touched one way or another.”

    http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/higher-things/2012/feb/25/tolstoys-pain-why-ath/

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  14. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  15. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Biting the hand that feeds him publicity – Martyn Bradbury is given the opportunity to promote his political agenda at the Herald – Martyn Bradbury: David can still stone the National Goliath – while his Daily Blog promotes a campaign against the Herald.
    The Liu Affair: The first step to a complaint to the Press Council.

    That’s not written by Bradbury but his blog is still featuring another post (by Chris Trotter) – True To Form: Deconstructing the Herald editorial

    But for an ethical journalist a “claim” is not proof, nor is it a justification for blackening a person’s name. Before trashing someone’s reputation – especially a political leader’s three months before a general election – a professional journalist requires evidence.

    Nothing of the sort is required, however, if the what a newspaper is engaged in isn’t “fair and balanced” journalism but a politically-motivated exercise in character assassination.

    If the herald told Bradbury to get stuffed he would probably complain about a lack of “fair and balanced” journalism like he moaned at Radio NZ when they dropped him.

    What the Donghua Liu allegations tell Labour is that the threshold for journalism has shifted to the point where breathless reporting of baseless and sourceless insinuations have become the new benchmark for uncritical propaganda.

    When the shrill beige brigade seem to hold one set of standards for Key and another for

    Cunliffe, relying on the mainstream news to give Labour fair coverage is a false hope.

    While he accuses the Herald of propaganda.

    The true genius of Matt McCarten’s appointment as chief-of-staff is that he understands the need to use MMP tactically with a specific focus on a handful of lynchpin electorates.

    Cunliffe’s performance in the debates and on the campaign trail will be one of the most convincing components of a Labour-led win.

    David Shearer had to go because of his ability to look confused five seconds into any answer so Cunliffe’s talent to front-foot Key will be crucial. Key beat Helen Clark and Phil Goff in the debates, if Cunliffe beats Key, he finally changes the narrative. It may not be apparent during the current media hype, but National has very few reasons to sleep easy.

    Ironic that the Herald allow him to promote his own propaganda.

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  16. hj (6,991 comments) says:

    What concerns me more is that New Zealand no longer seems to be being controlled by New Zealanders. Just moments ago I was reading a column by one of the National Party’s PR Companies, this one called ‘The New Zealand Herald”, and was amazed to find the very few commenters who were standing up for the Right Wing Bias of this second rate Tabloid ‘newspaper’, were mainly made up of who appeared to be non-New Zealanders, in fact one was commenting from Hong Kong!

    If we take as fact, which it is known to be by the National Party themselves, that around 50% of their current supporters are very wealthy new immigrants, mostly Asians, this means the actual support from NZ born New Zealanders for the National Party is probably as low as 10% of voters! Yet when we read the extreme right wing Newspapers, like the second rate tabloid ‘The New Zealand Herald”, and listen to the other National Party radio based PR Companies (NewstalkZB and Radio Live), you would think most New Zealanders support the current incompetent dishonest Casino and Chinese Business funded National Party.

    http://www.averagekiwi.com/?p=2568

    certainly has a ring of truth to it?

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  17. mister nui (1,027 comments) says:

    Humorless fuck, Scott Chris… Never heard of tongue-in-cheek?

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  18. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Lucan going to the ball ,I see he readily observes the required turn out for that.

    Well of course he did, otherwise he’d have missed out……..

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  19. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    And I can’t do that and embrace liberal positions on the minimum wage, climate change and gender discrimination

    And yet, somehow, so many conservatives can reconcile hard nosed economic theory with the existence of supernatural beings. Go figure.

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  20. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Tongue in cheek? here ya go and who says young people these days have no standards…….

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/thats-hole-new-level-extreme-3777492

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  21. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    Never heard of tongue-in-cheek?

    I don’t find jokes about torturing animals to be funny dickhead.

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  22. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    While there are some differences, such as asset sales, there is also a lot they have in common.

    Key couldn’t come up with anything.

    What do National and Conservatives have in common? Serious question. Remember that this is what Conservatives are still promoting on their website.

    It’s Time To Stand for Something

    Had a guts full of National’s abandoning their principles? Had enough of their arrogance? Had enough of them ignoring referendums; like the one on asset sales and the one on anti-smacking? Had enough of Bill English’s borrowing habits? Had enough of the two waka Government?

    That doesn’t sound like a lot in common.

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  23. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Oh dear Scotty “Chris” (where does the Chris come from?)

    Why do we want to derail GD so early with a totally unwarranted God hit?

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  24. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    Pete George (22,324 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 8:10 am
    John Key was pushed by Patrick Gower on The Nation to say “one good thing that he’s done this year” (about Colin Craig). He didn’t come up with anything good to say

    Lucky he wasn’t asked about ol’ Dunny, eh Pete.

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  25. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (8.25am) – obviously Bradbury didn’t see the tweet from Herald editor Tim Murphy yesterday hinting at much more to come on Liu.

    And in the meantime, Rodney Hide has written an excellent piece this morning on the dangerous strategy that Labour has embarked on. Attacking Donghua Liu may prove to be a huge strategic mistake from Labour, especially now that Mr Liu has lawyered up, and is gathering up the documentary evidence Labour demanded. This is not going to end well.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/hide-on-labours-risky-strategy.html

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  26. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    What is the Colin Craig party’s position on a Capital Gains Tax and why won’t he come clean on it? Penny Bright

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  27. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    PENELOPE!!

    Two questions (because, like Ceasar’s wife, an M.P MUST be ‘transparent in all things’ and above reproach’)

    1. Have you paid your outstanding rates to the Auckland City Council (as you are legally required to do)?

    2. Have you started your investigation into the New Zealand labour [party’s corruption; the corruption that is involving Mr. Liu and Mr. Cunnliffe (as a Public-spirited and self-appointed ANTI-CORRUPTION CAMPAIGNER’ must do to have any credibility anywhere)?

    Answering in the affirmative to these two questions will give you at least a smidgen of credibility, and it might even gain you a vote (or two).

    Answering in the negative, or even not answering at all, will, of course allow everyone to draw their own conclusions about your suitability as a ‘Parliamentary Representative’…

    BTW: You do realise of course that you will be expected to actually RESIDE in Mr. Key’s electorate at the time you are campaigning against him – and even before that event, so that the eligible voters within that electorate actually know who you are?

    (Said in a caring way, of course). ,. .

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  28. lilman (958 comments) says:

    Was out for tea last night and our hosts nephew goes to Lord Lucans school,his Aunt was saying that a lot of the boys from his year group are far from happy with the rights fighter and have been warned by their year dean that nothing was to be directed at Lucan.
    Sensible thinking by the Dean,but it shows not all young men are assholes.

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  29. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Bradbury has posted again this morning – Why fighting for a Labour-Green-Internet MANA majority is worth it and how easy it is to win

    David Cunliffe is a warm, intelligent, funny, smart as hell guy who can work relationships the way a coalition leader will need to. We would be lucky to have the chance of him being PM.
    Metiria Turei is one of the most trust worthy, honest, hard working, passionate NZers I’ve ever met who could do more for NZ in one term than anyone else I know.
    Russel Norman has a fierce intellect and command of the economy second to none on the political left.
    Hone Harawira is one of the great civil rights leaders this country has had in modern times and joined with
    Laila Harre, a leader of immense intelligence and talent who is universally respected and feared will be a force for progressive politics this country has not seen the likes of.

    With a lineup like that how can they lose?

    I blogged many moons ago that the meltdown of neoliberalism meant there was no political middle ground any longer and that the extreme parts of the political spectrum would decide the fate of NZ. The next Government will be decided by either the Conservative Party or Internet MANA.

    The very soul of our democracy will be fought over – are we real left or far right?

    Not sure how such a political genius came to the conclusion that there’s “no political middle ground any longer”. New Zealand has been governed from the centre for the last fifteen years.

    Like a few from the political fringes here – wishful thinking that the revolution will happen despite democracy.

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  30. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Catholics need to stop being so litigious, it is a real problem.

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  31. flipper (4,051 comments) says:

    YOU HAVE TWO COWS…the extended version by Prof. Dr. Gerald Hüther, adapted by Flipper

    SOCIALISM
    You have 2 cows.
    You give one to your neighbour

    COMMUNISM
    You have 2 cows.
    The State takes both and gives you some milk

    FASCISM
    You have 2 cows.
    The State takes both and sells you some milk

    NAZISM
    You have 2 cows.
    The State takes both and shoots you

    BUREAUCRATISM
    You have 2 cows.
    The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then
    throws the milk away

    TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
    You have two cows.
    You sell one and buy a bull.
    Your herd multiplies, and the economy
    grows.
    You sell them and retire on the income

    ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND (VENTURE) CAPITALISM
    You have two cows.
    You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by
    your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption
    for five cows.
    The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
    The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States , leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release.
    The public then buys your bull.

    SURREALISM
    You have two giraffes.
    The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

    AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    You sell one, and force the other to
    produce the milk of four cows.
    Later, you hire a consultant to analyse why
    the cow has dropped dead.

    A GREEK CORPORATION
    You have two cows. You borrow lots of euros to build barns, milking sheds, hay stores, feed sheds,
    dairies, cold stores, abattoir, cheese unit and packing sheds.
    You still only have two cows.

    A FRENCH CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    You go on strike, organise a riot, and block the roads, because you want three
    cows.

    A JAPANESE CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce
    twenty times the milk.
    You then create a clever cow cartoon image called a Cowkimona and
    market it worldwide.

    AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
    You have two cows,
    but you don’t know where they are.
    You decide to have lunch.

    A SWISS CORPORATION
    You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
    You charge the owners for storing them.

    A CHINESE CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    You have 300 people milking them.
    You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
    You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

    AN INDIAN CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    You worship them.

    A BRITISH CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    Both are mad.

    AN IRAQI CORPORATION
    Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.
    You tell them that you have none.
    No-one believes you, so they bomb the ** out of you and invade your country.
    You still have no cows, but at least you are now a Democracy.

    AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    Business seems pretty good.
    You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

    A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    The one on the extreme left is superficially attractive but is a nutter and has racists, red melons, Jabba and Cunminus T as partners
    The one on the right is self-made, popular, oozes common sense, and frustrates the hell out of socialist wallies in Academia and the MSmedia.

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  32. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    Can it not even be reported what country this diplomat is from.

    NZ of course would not invoke full diplomatic immunity for someone trying to rape a woman. Now accosting an underage boy at a public toilet might be a different matter though.

    Envoy expelled after attack

    A diplomat accused of a sex crime was ordered out of New Zealand after invoking full diplomatic immunity.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11283893

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  33. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Perth Muslim praises extremists
    https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/latest/a/24342069/junaids-jihad/

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  34. CHFR (229 comments) says:

    I for one love it that Bradbury has a large megaphone in the Herald. It allows people who will never read the Daily Blog to hear his opinions and the more that see his opinion the less will vote for IM or any party that will have them in government.

    The more I read from him the more he reminds me of Citizen Smith, continually pining for a revoultion that will never come.

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  35. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Have you paid your outstanding rates to the Auckland City Council (as you are legally required to do)?

    Tell me more about this “legal requirement”.

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  36. wiseowl (891 comments) says:

    Name one thing useful thing that United Future have done in the last year?
    How ,any paid up members in UF? <500
    How many paid up ,members in CP. 6000+

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  37. minus (192 comments) says:

    Why officials did advise against Liu getting citizenship, when he first applied ?

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  38. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    @ Pete George – why do you keep giving Bradbury free publicity here? He is best ignored.

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  39. minus (192 comments) says:

    When is the Dotcom extradition trial scheduled to start?

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  40. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    @ minus – he didn’t meet the English language standards; and still probably doesn’t.

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  41. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    @ CHFR – being old enough to remember Citizen Smith, Bradbury is indeed a poor man’s Wolfie Smith, only far less funny. His self-appointed nickname suggests that he views himself as some one-man revolutionary army fighting the dark forces of the state, but the reality is that he is quite simply a mouth for hire to the highest bidder.

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  42. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    UF have more then 500 members, that’s been verified by the Electoral Commission.
    CP claims to have many members, they probably have, but Craig has made dubious claims of support in the past.

    UF have contributed to Parliament and been a part of a functioning Government.

    Dunne actually talks to Key rather than sit on the sidelines praying for help.

    How many times has Craig won an electorate or succeeded in an election?

    But that’s all just a diversion from the point made about the differences between National and Conservatives. Can you say what they have in common or are you avoiding that?

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  43. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    @ minus (9.18am) – next Monday; 7th July. I wonder what Penny Bright will make of it all, when the evidence of a massive conspiracy to steal intellectual property comes out. I would imagine she and her friend Graham McCready will be up in arms about the dodginess of Herr Dotcom, and she will have a new anti-corruption target in her sights. Now, pass me a Tui…

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  44. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    lilman (820 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 8:47 am

    Was out for tea last night and our hosts nephew goes to Lord Lucans school,his Aunt was saying that a lot of the boys from his year group are far from happy with the rights fighter and have been warned by their year dean that nothing was to be directed at Lucan.
    Sensible thinking by the Dean,but it shows not all young men are assholes.

    ============================

    No it doesn’t. Just shows that many of them are indoctrinated with Catholic doctrine and fear created by that doctrine.

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  45. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    “No it doesn’t. Just shows that many of them are indoctrinated with Catholic doctrine and fear created by that doctrine.”

    Anti Catholic bigoted bullshit,from one of KB’s usual suspects……the others will be along shortly.

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  46. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    minus (119 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 9:17 am
    Why officials did advise against Liu getting citizenship, when he first applied ?

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    Yvette raised that yesterday. You won’t get an answer here. At the momentit’s “Look at Labour,Labour,Labour”.

    The citizens of New Zealand are entitled to know why our elected servants seem to represent their own interests and not ours.

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  47. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    I see that international charities are trying to get Immigration NZ to classify those annoying charity muggers on Queen Street as a major skills shortage area so they can fly in even more of them.

    What a complete crock. Apparent from being bloody annoying all the charities that seem to use professional collectors are internationals moving all the money off shore.

    Since when did Charities need professional collectors. Surely the point is people should volunteer their money not be harassed into given it

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  48. hj (6,991 comments) says:

    Wayne Brittenden uncovers some “unknown facts” on Iraq and ISIS. Points the finger at the US and Israel. No surprises there.

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  49. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    The thing that really disturbs me about the CP is those pictures of Colin Craig.

    Who the hell is he paying for PR advice. His wife?

    The picture of him lying in a meadow are just disturbing. The only thing worse would be Murei doing those same shots

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  50. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    Got to love Bombers language

    It’s the Far Right, but he represents the Real Left.

    I’m pretty sure the Real Left has statistically killed more people than even the Catholic Church

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  51. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    mickysavage – The #teamkey personality cult

    And National supporters will be praying that John Key does not trip or falter during the campaign. Because clearly there is no plan B.

    Ironic. A successful plan A versus how many failed Labour plans?

    Cunliffe is the one who desperately needs a new plan but there’s no sign of change.

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  52. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “Anti Catholic bigoted bullshit,from one of KB’s usual suspects……the others will be along shortly.”

    It’s strange how these weirdos want to make religion the main focus in an issue that has very little to do with religion.

    Pretty standard OCD symptom I guess.

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  53. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    John Key was once asked by Patrick Gower “why the moon didn’t ever dance the tango?”

    Key had no answer to this question, so Gower and the blithering idiots who respond to his nonsense said this proved something negative about John Key and also suggested something bad about the moon.

    Idiotic and poorly premised questions seem to be a trend among the chattering classes lately.

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  54. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Longknives (4,291 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 8:06 am

    For fuck’s sake…The media adulation continues-

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11283868

    As I’ve said before- This dropkick is going to get one hell of a fright if he ever grows up and joins the workforce
    “But..But I’m Lucan! I don’t DO rules man…”
    *Assuming that he doesn’t just go straight into Politics with Greens or Mana…He is our own “Martin Luther King” after all!
    ==============================

    What arseholes some of you are.

    First you fail to gather the correct information and then you rant on like fucking uneducated idiots because a family choses to take a reasonable and fair stand against a bunch of people who unilaterally change the rules.

    Hark back to Helen Clark and her lot and the way they made rules to suit themselves. did you squeal like stuck pigs then? Well yes you did, but did you have the guts to put up a fight. Nah you ranted and raved and made a lot of noise but that was it. Weak.

    A potted history for your benefit.

    ============================
    Caught with his hair down

    A St John’s College board of trustees member who led the decision to suspend student Lucan Battison is refusing to comment following the discovery of a photo of him as a long-haired student of Lucan’s age – while attending the same school.

    In yesterday’s decision, Justice David Collins said it had not been possible to determine when the hair rule was first adopted by the school, but there was photographic evidence that in the “mid-1970s” there was either no rule or one which wasn’t enforced.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11283669
    =============================================
    So the father of the girl who splattered vitriol and bad language all over facebook and who was Chairman of the anti hair brigade wore long hair himself.

    Which brings me back to the point I made some days ago this was all about HER ego. Lucan must have given her a pass by.

    But there’s as always is more ain’t there.

    This was all kicked off when the new principal of 1 month went to a rugby game and saw several boys with long hair. He called them in, prescribed his version of the rules. Not what had been practiced for the last say 30 years. Then it got personal. The new man’s ego got mixed with those of the jilted girls father who also presumably doesn’t like the boys father and way it went.

    Lucan and his parents, Troy and Tania, said they were pleased with the judgment but disappointed it had to go to the High Court. “Our preferred option all along was mediation.”
    ———————–
    While rules had a place, they needed to be “reasonable and certain”, they said.”Lucan never broke the rules. The rules which we signed up for, were ‘off the collar and out of the eyes’. Lucan’s hair, whether in a hair-tie or not, has conformed to this, but the new principal shifted the goal posts.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/10209394/Lucans-hair-battle-hits-ball-plans
    —————————–

    Schools scramble to check rules after student’s legal victory

    New Zealand schools are facing hefty legal bills to ensure their rules on students’ appearance are legally watertight following a High Court ruling that a college’s decree on hair length was not legally enforceable.

    The Battison family said in a statement that they were pleased with the judgment, but disappointed the issue had reached the High Court — they had wanted mediation.

    “We do believe rules have a place. But they need to be reasonable and certain. Lucan has had the same style for three years at St John’s.”

    They said he had signed up to the rule and his hair — whether in a hair tie or not — was off the collar and out of his eyes. “In 2014, when girls’ hair lengths … aren’t questioned, why should the rules be different for boys? … It is the school that did not follow the law.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11283431
    —————————

    I am a wondering;
    Lucan went back to school as prescribed by the Judge with the judge making the point that no disciplnary action was to be taken. That edict was immediately defied by the School by refusing to allow Lucan to practice with the First 15 of which I think he was Captain and by refusing him entry to the school ball.
    I am wondering if this is not indeed contempt of court and whether Collins should now call up the Headmaster & the school for these actions. That would be right and fair.
    ————————————

    nasska (10,316 comments) says:
    June 28th, 2014 at 11:56 am

    Reid

    His father (complete with dreadlocks) is a local businessman who features in the register of companies. He is also a survivor of a stint in the spinal unit at Burwood Hospital after a stock car crash which would indicate that he’s not short of guts nor the readies to take a court case.

    If it’s his own money I would suggest that he can spend it as he sees fit.
    ————————————————————
    Seems that plenty of those that call themselves the new National socialist right are actually not far short of being as left as Cunnlife and McCarten given this man has apparently an abundance of self reliance to his credit.

    Fancy calling him a greeny. Just shows you can’t tell a person from their hairstyles.
    ========================================

    So to sum up.
    New Principal (obviously of short man syndrome), decided to make a stand and attacked a young man with mana (and he has as well as a endeavor to achieve), almost certainly a leader and in doing so decided that he and his henchman that appointed him could flout the law, deny a person a fair hearing based on the rules as they had been, refused to mediate the situation cause we are right and we will have you obeying the Lord, then spent the schools money trying to make a point that they immediately and properly lost which in turn has now created more work for Lawyers for schools. all because their ego’s were so big that they lost sight of what their job is; i.e. to provide educational achievement to the schools customers.

    The BOT has a serious problem and that includes finding themselves a better chairman and Headmaster.

    FFS. how to alienate hundreds of kids in one easy lesson. Who thinks for one moment that most of the rest of the kids that go to that school will ever have any respect for this headmaster. Respect is earned and given It can never be imposed.
    And that is this this headmasters next big problem.
    For no matter what he says or does most are simply going to ignore him. The kids are not employees so he can’t sack them and hire more.
    He relies on parents for funding etc. Many are going to say get stuffed if this is how you are going to behave.
    Some of his staff are going to be rightly pissed off.That won’t make for good staff relations at all.

    No doubt in its usual manner the Catholic Hierarchy will want some penance. Many Hail Mary’s and money in the plate etc will be required.

    Doesn’t change the fact that the School and its representatives were wrong and should apologise
    which of course they won’t because the Church can do no wrong.

    Of course I expect all the liberals and righties so called along with all the Catholics to give this a thumbs down. Its the nature of the indoctrinated beast.

    Go right ahead. doesn’t bother me.

    In short the man is a fool.

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  55. wiseowl (891 comments) says:

    Gees Red,I’ve seen it dancing about some nights.
    I may have been a bit under the influence though.

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  56. mike tan (485 comments) says:

    Hey Mr. Baiter,

    One way flights to Singapore are still in the $800 – $1000 range. I’m in for $100 provided you prove it’s used for the ticket ;)

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  57. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    southern raider

    “……..killed more people than even the Catholic Church”

    How many women did the Calvinist “reformers” burn?

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  58. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

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  59. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    V2 ,anti catholic bigot, blames the “Catholic hierarchy” for the hair ills. Strange that ,as the school board will be made up of elected parents from the school community.

    But let’s not a simple fact get in the way of a long Sunday morning bigoted rant from what appears to be an angry poster with an obvious axe to grind.

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  60. muggins (3,615 comments) says:

    School boy Lucan Battison got to join his classmates at the school ball after his court fight against a school hair ban threatened to keep him at home for the night.

    Battison, 16, was kicked out of class on May 22 after ignoring requests from St John’s College to cut his hair. He offered to tie it back in a bun but this was unacceptable to the school.

    Last week Justice David Collins ruled in favour of the year 12 Hastings student, saying his suspension was unlawful – as was the hair rule set out by the school.

    Lucan returned to college on Wednesday after Collins, during Monday’s hearing, asked the school to take him back pending his decision and without interim punishment.

    But the school put its foot down and told Lucan he wouldn’t be attending the school ball – although that decision was reversed last night.

    So Lucan got to go to the ball after all.

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  61. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Its very simple Viking.

    1) The guy agrees to go to the school and abide by the rules the management specifies. The management reserves the right to change those rules at any time. That’s implicit in choosing to attend the school. Whether the rule on hair length was new or old doesn’t matter.

    2) If any pupil at the school refuses to obey the rules, the management of the school has the option of suspension until the pupil agrees to comply. Agreement with this principle is also implicit in attending the school.

    3) If principles 1) and 2) are abandoned, then the management has been stripped of its right to manage. In other words it has been denied the right to run its own school as it sees fit.

    The boy should have cut his hair. The idiot judge doesn’t understand the implications of his ruling.

    And if you want to make it a political issue, then like marriage redefinition, its the big govt led socialist collective attacking the individuals who manage the school and tradition all over again. It is progressives attacking age old traditions that work and are the good things in our society. As they always do.

    That’s why your allies in this matter are Thepeoplesflag and other such loony communists.

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  62. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    gulag 1917

    Andrew Bolt on the filthy Perth jihadist.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/its_the_duty_of_extremists_to_fit_in_not_ours_to_give_in/

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  63. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Who will employ a litigious individual like Lucan?

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  64. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    It’s very simple Reddy. The idiot principal didn’t even follow his own school’s rules. In any event, even if the rules had been broken, which they weren’t, the sensible judge ruled that suspension was a grossly disproportionate response. Simple enough even for you to follow, I should have thought.

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  65. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    kowtow
    Christianity is evolving and reforming, the atheists [most who are probably agnostics] with their dogmatic blindness may not pick that up for years.

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  66. hj (6,991 comments) says:

    A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION
    You have two cows.
    ……….
    You milk one
    You send the other to the works and put a subdivision of dubious quality on the site. You sell to foreigners and tell the locals they are “enriched” (if they mutter objection you single them out as deviant racists).

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  67. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    You see Viking.

    There’s milky, another communist, of the kind that is dedicated to the plan of making us all live and act like a school of whitebait swimming down a stream, that wants to make big government the arbitrator on every feature of our lives, and he’s on your side too.

    What do you reckon that says about your POV and your claim that you are sticking up for the individual ?

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  68. flipper (4,051 comments) says:

    Red….

    Do you not understand that the rules were unilaterally varied by the NEW head one month after he (the new Head) started.
    What was within the rules was changed by bullshit fiat.

    For Lord’s sake, can you not understand that the school acted unlawfully.
    The judge told the school to take Lucan back, and to impose no punishment pending his reserved decision.
    Did the school heed that Judicial request? No.

    The school then faced a further legal problem But reduced it by one by a last minute decision to allow the boy to attend the ball. Now they face a legal problem over the First XV. The judge’s written decision is the final word.

    Red (et al) … Shut the FU.
    End of discussion. Your attitude and position do you no credit.

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  69. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Flapper says…….

    “Red (et al) … Shut the FU.
    End of discussion. Your attitude and position do you no credit.”

    Spoken like a true fascist!

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  70. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “What was within the rules was changed by bullshit fiat.”

    The management of any institution has the right to change any rule whenever it sees fit, and the employees engaged to oversee those rules have the responsibility to see they are abided by.

    The interpretation of those rules is also the responsibility of management. This is all implicit in attendance at the school.

    You are effectively taking the side of the union against the management, and you call yourself a supporter of capitalism.

    Like most Nat party people you don’t have a clue how the left has been outsmarting you for decades because you don’t understand or support the principles your party was founded on.

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  71. flipper (4,051 comments) says:

    Well, bovine idiot, this today from the Whale …..
    No sympathy for hair boy by another hair boy

    by Whaleoil on June 29, 2014 at 7:30am

    [Sam Hurley did some digging and found this photo]

    And that chap grew up to be?

    A St John’s College board of trustees member who led the decision to suspend student Lucan Battison is refusing to comment following the discovery of a photo of him as a long-haired student of Lucan’s age – while attending the same school.

    Byron Fergus, a former pupil of St John’s College, is pictured above in a 1988 photograph of the school’s senior basketball team.

    Mr Fergus was a 6th former when the picture was taken, the equivalent of Lucan’s current Year 12.

    The photo suggests he was sporting long locks at the time.

    The school old boy was the chairman of the St John’s College disciplinary committee, which decided to proceed with Lucan’s suspension after he refused to cut his hair to the school’s requirements.

    I’m fairly sure that everyone involved in that saga will consider that the whole thing has spun out of control, and yet nobody is willing to take a backward step. Rules are rules, but you need to have some context and apply some common sense and negotiating skills.

    Denying someone an education because of a uniform code violation is pretty hard. Good management wouldn’t have let this issue get to the point where the courts had to become involved.

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  72. mike tan (485 comments) says:

    So there is a closed Facebook group “John Key has let New Zealand down”. I’m sure it’s full of intellectual discussion.

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  73. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (7,301 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 10:21 am

    Its very simple Viking.

    1) The guy agrees to go to the school and abide by the rules the management specifies. The management reserves the right to change those rules at any time. That’s implicit in choosing to attend the school. Whether the rule on hair length was new or old doesn’t matter.

    2) If any pupil at the school refuses to obey the rules, the management of the school has the option of suspension until the pupil agrees to comply. Agreement with this principle is also implicit in attending the school.

    3) If principles 1) and 2) are abandoned, then the management has been stripped of its right to manage. In other words it has been denied the right to run its own school as it sees fit.
    ==============================

    Well reddy you surprise me. You want what all communists want. Total obedience to the Pseudo state.
    fuck you have a warped and twisted brain.

    Mike Williams just made the point on Q& A that the boy was obeying the school rules.

    It was the School who broke the rules. Even the Judge said so. Now you are one for wanting rules followed are you.

    I want to see the Judge summon the School for contempt of court. That’s what they did. Why should they not be called to account?

    Them’s the court rules.

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  74. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    How’s that integration thingy going?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2673493/Infidels-wear-red-collars-shave-heads-Nazi-vision-Muslim-Britain-Imam-ran-Isis-barbecue-Welsh-park.html

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  75. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “Total obedience to the Pseudo state”

    It was the boy and his father who ran to the state.

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  76. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    People wonder why industry/manufacturing is moving to China. The Chinese value education and a good proportion of NZ kids are the opposite helped by adult agitators with their worship of and obsession with the state.

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  77. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “So there is a closed Facebook group “John Key has let New Zealand down”. I’m sure it’s full of intellectual discussion.”

    Mike, you’re in danger of making yourself look like one of those blithering idiots who is completely unable to recognise the difference between criticism of Key from the left, and criticism from the right.

    When Key has taken National so far left, and so distant from its founding principles, why would you (apparently) think criticism from the right to be out of order? Or even worse forbidden? Is this rational behaviour?

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  78. flipper (4,051 comments) says:

    The management of any institution has the right to change any rule whenever it sees fit, and the employees engaged to oversee those rules have the responsibility to see they are abided by. The interpretation of those rules is also the responsibility of management…..
    ****
    Absolute crap Reddi.. No employment situation..
    The school charges fees for attendance, so the Head may in fact have breached a contract with the pupil’s parents since the new Head unilaterally imposed a new interpretation of the rules, but that was never an issue before the Court.

    So reddi and bovine fool, go back to the Education Act, NZBORA, Common Law, and the decision by Collins J.
    You are obviously both anarchists…. or are trying hard.

    Therre on ly a few fascists here, and you aznd the bivine fool are the worst.

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  79. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    “Them’s the courts rules”

    Yep. And all across what used to be the civilised western world “lawfare” is being used to undermine common sense .

    So many examples.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9136145/War-criminal-Joseph-Lissa-wins-right-to-stay-in-Britain.html

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  80. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Reddy: ‘The management of any institution has the right to change any rule whenever it sees fit’
    Sounds a bit like Alice in Wonderland:
    “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.”
    So don’t bring in your hand-wringing, liberal judges – the rules are just what Reddy says they are. Welcome to fascism.

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  81. mike tan (485 comments) says:

    Red,

    National only seems “far left” because you are far right. New Zealand is not and has never been a far right country, national has never been a far right party and Key is winning elections and making tucker out of the opposition. I’m sorry to hear that this is upsetting to you. You would be right at home in Mississippi.

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  82. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    A few people in Australia make a living out by seeking compensation for some slight. NZ schools will be closing up loopholes so rascals cannot take them to court over some offence. The rascal has now cost the NZ taxpayer heaps of money and he will make it harder for any student with grievance of importance.

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  83. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “Therre on ly a few fascists here, and you aznd the bivine fool are the worst.”

    You’ve got the communists on your side Flip. Maybe you should think about that. (and where misguided people like you are taking the National Party)

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  84. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    kowtow (7,385 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 10:20 am

    V2 ,anti catholic bigot, blames the “Catholic hierarchy” for the hair ills. Strange that ,as the school board will be made up of elected parents from the school community.

    But let’s not a simple fact get in the way of a long Sunday morning bigoted rant from what appears to be an angry poster with an obvious axe to grind.
    .=========================
    Ah no. I blame the attitude that is embedded in people by that hierarchy. Assuming that the BOT is made up of like minds is a reasonable assumption.

    Yes it was long but only because I took the time to collect bits of published information and put it up for each to see and cross reference , something that neither you nor redblather didn’t bother to do. Had you done so you would been in more possession of the facts as published and would then be in a more informed state to make comments or decisions. Ignoring both the facts and the religious bias that caused the issue won’t change the issue.

    I was born into a family with Grandparents Viking on one side and Catholic on the other. Fortunately the Vikings won and I didn’t get indoctrinated with bullshit servery but rather with the idea that each man was himself and not owned into servery as Catholics are. (You may indeed be surprised how far up the hierarchy they were.)

    I detest the way that religion treats its own and others. And its not alone in that.
    I simply can’t condone the way women are treated by the church and its adherents and cannot possibly believe that you can do wrong all week, go and plead, with an almost certainly a screwed up individual who calls himself a priest for forgiveness, say a few Hail Mary’s, toss some coin in the plate and go right back out and continue to do the same until next week.
    And don’t bother to defend this. It happens and is indefensible.
    Have seen it here in NZ and so will you if you look around.

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  85. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @Gulag1917

    Christianity is evolving and reforming, the atheists [most who are probably agnostics] with their dogmatic blindness may not pick that up for years.

    I assume you mean evolving to extinction, as the decline in the ‘Xtian’ population in Western countries has been inexorable.

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  86. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Lutheran Catholic hybrid.

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  87. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “National only seems “far left” because you are far right.”

    Y’know Mike, putting aside your smug brainless suggestions that I shoulr leave the country rather than participate in the democratic process, I don’t think you’re totally immune to logic.

    So therefore, perhaps you can explain to me why suddenly the Nats founding principles are considered by its supporters as “far right”?

    Maybe you can explain to me the conundrum that if NZ was never a far right country as you claim, then they would never have elected a party that has far right principles, yet they elected Sid Holland time and time again, and he founded the party on those principles.

    So what is it, the principles are far right or you’re going by your own process of rationale, a far leftist?

    Given the nature of your comments here, which so often align with those made by commenters who at least admit to being left wing, I’d say at the very least you’re very confused about what you are and what you stand for.

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  88. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Maybe but reform is possible and it is desperately needed. A lot of Christianity is religious rather than thought through and consistent.

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  89. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “I assume you mean evolving to extinction, as the decline in the ‘Xtian’ population in Western countries has been inexorable.”

    Yes, we notice how hard the obsessives are working to encourage it. Pity that you refuse to accept the reponsibility for the obvious outcomes of your actions- From a recent Kiwiblog thread:

    Ministry figures show that of those receiving the Youth Payment, 38 per cent were victims of domestic violence, 76 per cent had suffered emotional neglect and 5 per cent were either homeless or victims of sexual abuse.

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  90. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘then they would never have elected a party that has far right principles, yet they elected Sid Holland time and time again, and he founded the party on those principles.’
    Oh yes, Sid Holland. Only the first of many National Party leaders to accept what he had inherited from Labour and leave it in place, socialism and all. If your treasured Sid was content to ignore those founding principles it doesn’t say much for your argument.
    Oh, and Sid Holland didn’t found the National Party BTW.

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  91. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Ground Hog Day :-(

    Is there no end?

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  92. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Gee, look at that Mike, the communists are rushing to help you out too.

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  93. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Redbaiter (7,308 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 11:34 am

    Communists do not rush.
    We walk in nice tidy columns, in our little red uniforms.
    Rushing, is SO yesterday, a bit like the conservatives! :-)

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  94. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Here you go … Just for you, because you’re special :-)

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  95. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    The crunch will come one day, resources will be restricted and money will be in short supply and the radicals will then come to their senses. Some people do learn the hard way.

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  96. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    “I assume you mean evolving to extinction, as the decline in the ‘Xtian’ population in Western countries has been inexorable.”

    In the same way the growth of Islam in the west is .

    So you boys won’t get rid of religion.You’ll simply replace Christian culture and civilisation with desert barbarism .

    Enjoy the future you’re creating for your grand children.Traitors.

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  97. MH (751 comments) says:

    And there are already, as in the case of Liu/can- Barber-ians at the school gates.

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  98. Longknives (4,737 comments) says:

    I see there are a few people here quite ‘Star-Struck’ by young Martin-Luther Lucan and his flowing locks…
    I also played first XV footy (albeit twenty years ago) and I was also awarded a Bravery Medal a few years back!
    Do I now get to make my own fucking rules in life??
    “Fuck work- I’m not turning up tomorrow..I won a Bravery Award you know..”
    You guys will naturally support me-
    Or do I not get such an adoring fan club??

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  99. SGA (1,022 comments) says:

    kowtow at 11:52 am

    So you boys won’t get rid of religion.You’ll simply replace Christian culture and civilisation with desert barbarism .
    Enjoy the future you’re creating for your grand children.Traitors.

    So much for religion requiring actual faith – it’s all our tribe against theirs. But perhaps it’s always been that way….

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  100. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    Hey Kowtow, if the Christian hater Clintonoid has his way and then has any grand kids, they’ll probably end up marrying Muslims, and becoming Muslims as they are bound to do in order to enable that marriage to take place. Just think of how his vapid smugness will transform into purple faced outrage at that outcome.

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  101. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “But perhaps it’s always been that way….”

    Ever wondered why Christian nations lead the world? Take a trip to the Middle East and report back.

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  102. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Longknives (4,292 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 11:58 am
    Where is MY adoring fan club??

    We’re right here petal. Hanging off your every word. :P

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  103. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    Viking #2

    “…..I simply can’t condone the way women are treated by the church and its adherents and cannot possibly believe that you can do wrong all week, go and plead, with an almost certainly a screwed up individual who calls himself a priest for forgiveness, say a few Hail Mary’s, toss some coin in the plate and go right back out and continue to do the same until next week.
    And don’t bother to defend this. It happens and is indefensible….”

    LOL —- I’ll defend it. The answer is in your statement “…..say a few Hail Mary’s….”

    The Roman Cahtolic Church is the Christian Church that venerates and holds Mary in very high regard as women have a very important role in society.
    Mary along with Confession are at the fore front of Roman Catholicism. Other Christian Churches don’t hold Mary in as high regard.[that's not to say they think anything bad of her]

    It’s secular feminism that talked women down from their pedestal and to climb that of the male. Women now compete with males in the male’s domain – pitting women against their children which can end in abortion at the extreme. In between children still suffer.

    Motherhood has been relegated to that of a minimum wage job. Ironicly, health and education ‘professionals’ which are more so women these days, then pick up the pieces – at a cost to tax payers.

    “………I simply can’t condone the way women are treated by the church…..”

    Mysogynist! :cool:

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  104. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Longknives (4,293 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 11:58 am

    I see there are a few people here quite ‘Star-Struck’ by young Martin-Luther Lucan and his flowing locks
    ==============

    So without recourse to the facts as published you now make up more fairy tales.
    No wonder poor old God gets bothered and causes Hell and Damnation on earth.
    People like you are enough to drive even the Diety nuts on a good day. :o :x :lol:

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  105. SGA (1,022 comments) says:

    Redbaiterat 12:02 pm

    Ever wondered why Christian nations lead the world? Take a trip to the Middle East and report back.

    And if in 20-30 years non-christian asian countries “lead the world”? Would you attribute it to their lack of Christianity? Not sure what you’re point is, sorry.

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  106. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    SGA

    Belief, faith, whatever.

    There’s a culture war on and in many places it’s actual war . I know which tribe I belong to.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2672843/Britains-population-grown-5-MILLION-12-years.html

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  107. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @kowtow

    Christianity is not the necessary bulwark against Islam. Reason and education is.

    Scaremongering isn’t going to refill the pews.

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  108. SGA (1,022 comments) says:

    kowtow at 12:16 pm

    There’s a culture war on and in many places it’s actual war . I know which tribe I belong to.

    I think everyone here knows that :-)
    On the other hand, I’m not sure that the “we need more Christians to fight the Muslims” flavour to some of your posts is going to fill the pews. Fair enough?

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  109. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    Viking 2#

    “…….and cannot possibly believe that you can do wrong all week, go and plead, with an almost certainly a screwed up individual who calls himself a priest for forgiveness, say a few Hail Mary’s, toss some coin in the plate and go right back out and continue to do the same until next week…..”

    Last time I looked Catholics only had to go to Confession once a year, but anyway:

    Confessing of one’s sins is at the fore front of the Catholic Church as Redeemtion gives one Salvation. Man has to keep himself in check by having a perfect transient being above himself. As men are fallen and not perfect. That is the Truth.

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  110. stephieboy (3,013 comments) says:

    SGA, excellent point and the said” Christian” nations are that only in a purely nominal sense.If that.The differences in the ME is that Western nations like the Asian ones have achieved the vital step of separation of powers i.e the separation of church/ religion and state , thus neutralizing the power of the Church.
    If this were not the case we would be where the Islamic Theocracies and oligarchies in the ME are right now .!
    Redbaiter obviously wants to turn the clock back to Mediaevalism.!

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  111. mike tan (485 comments) says:

    Mr. Baiter,

    I am a social liberal and fiscal centrist (am a Keynesian but support minimal interference). I would like National to be more socially liberal (e.g. euthanasia reform and drug law reform) but am happy to give them two ticks based on what else is available.

    You appear to be a hard liner who would gift the country to the left were you in charge of policy making.

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  112. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “……Christianity is not the necessary bulwark against Islam. Reason and education is….”

    LOL….. Christianity has been the one constant line of defense against Islam over the last 2000yrs. At times it has been the only line of defense. The Knights Templar and the Crusades are testament to that.

    To then deny Christianity as a significant line of defense against Islam is not reasonable nor educated.

    Can a Muslim lead a good life by having a relationship with God? – of course he can.

    Is the Koran a reliable source to have that relationship? – of course not. The Koran has been the one constant in the ME.

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  113. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Wonder which private companies are going to get PM John Keys roading contracts? How to turn public assets into private profits? What more do you expect from the ‘Man from Merrill Lynch’? Penny Bright

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  114. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Harriet (4,386 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 12:21 pm

    Viking 2#

    Confessing of one’s sins is at the fore front of the Catholic Church as Redeemtion gives one Salvation. Man has to keep himself in check by having a perfect transient being above himself. As men are fallen and not perfect. That is the Truth.
    ————————————————–
    Only in your tiny mind.

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  115. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    “……Christianity is not the necessary bulwark against Islam. Reason and education is….”
    Are you prepared to die for your reason and education?

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  116. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    Viking 2#

    “…..Only in your tiny mind….”

    Being perfect is not the matter of a tiny mind.

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  117. stephieboy (3,013 comments) says:

    Harriet, separation of church and state and the advance of the secular state is the surest way ultimately to beat Militant Islam.This includes nurturing and encouraging Democratic institutions and beliefs of the kind that exist in Israel.Tall order.?
    Possibly, but worth the effort.
    But to advance Fundamentalist Christian dogma and belief as an answer would make things imaginably worse and impossible..

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  118. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Asian nations that are successful,have nothing to do with ‘Church and State”

    They are successful because they have adopted western capitalism, a key component of which is the Protestant work ethic.

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  119. mike tan (485 comments) says:

    Isn’t Penny the person that refuses to pay her bills? I think i remember bruv saying something about this

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  120. MH (751 comments) says:

    Who is we ? – we leave the defence up to the yanks,and then wring our hands. That is why we want to get on the Security Council ? Chamberlains.

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  121. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

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  122. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    SGA

    “On the other hand, I’m not sure that the “we need more Christians to fight the Muslims” flavour to some of your posts is going to fill the pews. Fair enough?”

    I don’t give a shit how many people go to Church.What I do give a shit about is the constant anti Christian bigots banging on all the time.

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  123. SGA (1,022 comments) says:

    kowtow at 12:39 pm

    Asian nations that are successful,have nothing to do with ‘Church and State”
    They are successful because they have adopted western capitalism, a key component of which is the Protestant work ethic.

    So no cultures/civilisations prior to the reformation had a good work ethic? The Chinese spent the last three thousand years smoking opium and eating wild rice, I assume.

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  124. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “……Harriet, separation of church and state and the advance of the secular state is the surest way ultimately to beat Militant Islam….” “…..the advance of the secular state….”

    The Bible itself calls for the seperation of Church and State. The US Constitution is testament to that. It is Christian man who places God above himself. If man rejects God then the Constitution or the State then fails. The USSR, Nazi Germany and Nth Korea are testament to that.

    “…..Thus includes nurturing and encouraging Democratic institutions and beliefs of the kind that exist in Israel.Tall order.?…”

    The West had democratic institutions long before modern Israel was founded. I don’t see your point.

    It is all about individual man placing God above himself. No one can enforce that upon people – as it is impossable.

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  125. stephieboy (3,013 comments) says:

    Gulag, reason and education is something you don’t really die for unless it’s as e.g against a warring Nazism.But the long term solution in beating Islam in the Med is a multi pronged approach that includes curbing power of the Mosque as with the West and the Church.That involves a process of education and raisingb the living standards of the people by sharing e.g that oil wealth around so on.

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  126. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    SGA

    You are being deliberately obtuse.

    Where did I say people in other cultures didn’t/don’t work hard.

    I referred specifically to the Protestant work ethic as one component (among others)of capitalism. There’s more to that ethic than simply working hard !

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  127. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @Harriet

    Actually, the comment was in the context of current times. Medieval Xtianity had little education nor reason to offer.

    The tendency for Xtians and Muslims to kill each other in great numbers over their imaginary friend isn’t a good advertisement of your faith. Nor does your little scenario gel with the crippling of the Abbasid Caliphate by the 13th C Mongol invasions, and the permanent loss of the Khurasan core to the surviving Sunni states.

    Xtian-Muslim aggression has done much to leave the world in its current state. Raising this bogeyman may have worked in the Middle Ages. It’s unconvincing in this era.

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  128. stephieboy (3,013 comments) says:

    Harriet, I was referring to Israel as role model for ME Islam including the separation of church and state .Our Western democracy only became such through neutralizing the power of your Church and your associated belief systems.
    Fact.!

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  129. SGA (1,022 comments) says:

    kowtow at 12:48 pm

    SGA – You are being deliberately obtuse.

    A little :-)
    I see things a little different from you, is all. Civilisations, each at its time the greatest yet produced, have risen and fallen – each with the help and blessing of their gods. I see modern western civilisation from that perspective.

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  130. Manolo (13,746 comments) says:

    Chilean passion: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldcup2014/article-2673471/Chile-journalist-Jhendelyn-Nunez-shows-bra-Alexis-Sanchez-goal-against-Brazil.html

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  131. mike tan (485 comments) says:

    Harriet,

    Which part of the bible calls for separation of church and state?

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  132. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Bogeyman?

    Unconvincing?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10515545/We-will-all-lose-if-Christians-flee-the-Middle-East.html

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  133. Paulus (2,626 comments) says:

    I hope that serious consideration for the judicial appointment of the High Court Judge to the DotCrim case is not Mr David Collins, failed one time Solicitors General.
    At least the DotCrim has not got long hair, or is that a bad thing.

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  134. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “….The tendency for Xtians and Muslims to kill each other in great numbers over their imaginary friend isn’t a good advertisement of your faith. …..”

    It’s a good advertisment for defending one’s faith for over 2000 yrs – and ending slavery in the 20th century by the likes of Christian Englishman William Wilberforce. Oxford opened around 1250 and has a motto which reads in part “….to follow Christ…..”

    Ancient Greece at the time of Plato had no problems with slavery, and at times there were more slaves than Greeks in some parts.

    Much like Islam still treats women and it’s adherants today. Muslims have only been emigrating to the west in the last 30yrs – right when it’s on it’s knees. Muslim emigration to the west was unheard of before now.

    Islam will not change – the west will – for the worst. We are seeing that throughout Europe now – the Europe that taught it’s next generations after WW2 to become more secular!

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  135. SGA (1,022 comments) says:

    Manolo at 12:54 pm

    Chilean passion: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldcup2014/article-2673471/Chile-journalist-Jhendelyn-Nunez-shows-bra-Alexis-Sanchez-goal-against-Brazil.html

    That “journalist” is welcome to interview me anytime. (A google of Jhendelyn Nunez and clicking Images provides more of her journalism :-) )

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  136. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @Kowtow

    Loved the way you played the martyr card after abusing me as a traitor. Stay classy.

    The Middle-East is a good illustration of why the Abrahamic religions are toxic. I have never put forward any argument that Islam is a quaint and harmless religion. What I have objected to is the hysterical scaremongering being advanced.

    My original point was just an observation that Xtianity is in decline. You introduced Islam. That’s not a sufficient or necessary reason for me to support Christianity.

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  137. Chthoniid (2,044 comments) says:

    @Harriet

    The pride with which you advance your religion’s violent past does not make a good advertisment for it

    Many good people of varying beliefs worked to end slavery, not just Wilberforce. The brutal fact however, is that for 90% of your religion’s history, enslaving people was an acceptable thing to do. Some were not persuaded otherwise until the Federal army guns reached Richmond.

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  138. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    “But the long term solution in beating Islam in the Med is a multi pronged approach that includes curbing power of the Mosque as with the West and the Church.That involves a process of education and raisingb the living standards of the people by sharing e.g that oil wealth around so on.”

    This strategy will not work. Who has got the initiative in the West? Who is on the back foot.
    Moslems will perceive NZ as weak, Australia is fearful of Moslem Indonesia and so should NZ be. There may be war between Australia and Indonesia and an inevitable consequence is tens of thousands of “refugees” flooding into NZ causing a problem for generations. I doubt that the secular humanists have got the will let alone the energy to resist Islam. Christianity is an easier target although it is an imaginary threat. No Christian of any intelligence would ever consider making people believe.

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  139. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    “The management of any institution has the right to change any rule whenever it sees fit, and the employees engaged to oversee those rules have the responsibility to see they are abided by.”

    —————————

    Any institution has the right to change any rule?

    Really?

    I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you support “making shit up as we go along” style management.

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  140. maycra (8 comments) says:

    @Harriet. Keeping religion out of future governments is a good idea don’t you think?

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  141. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Islam has got a few friends/unintended allies on this blog.

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  142. Manolo (13,746 comments) says:

    UT above all.

    KB’s jihadist is a practitioner of the religion of peace and devout follower of its paedophile prophet, who quotes the Q’uran to all and sundry.

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  143. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Gulag1917

    ….” No Christian of any intelligence would ever consider making people believe.”…..

    Only because they have lost the power to enforce compliance otherwise we would face an Inquisition tomorrow morning.

    Meanwhile, instead of forcing us to believe in their brand of Skyfairy, they content themselves with ensuring that we will live & act according to their ideals. eg abortion, euthanasia, marriage qualification.

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  144. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Even if Christianity e.g. in NZ had the power to make people believe they would face fierce resistance within Christianity and power like that would be relinquished. What atheists in NZ have been persecuted by a mainline church?

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  145. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    Only because they have lost the power to enforce compliance otherwise we would face an Inquisition tomorrow morning.

    nasska has it ever occurred to you and others who hold a similar hallucination about what we Christians think, that if your hallucination were in fact the case, then we Christians would in fact be bound by the dictates of what you fantasise is our religion, to agitate non-stop 24/7/365 for such a state of affairs to come to pass?

    And the fact that we Christians don’t do this, gives the clue you need to recognise and accept that your stated belief which is not the first time you’ve promulgated it, is in fact, absolutely fucking nuts?

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  146. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Most of us. Think Bolger, English.et al.

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  147. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    PENELOPE!!

    How good of you to visit.

    Since you have visited and, as we know DO return here frequently, (but have evidently missed them), here (once again) are the two questions I asked you earlier, repeated just to make sure you see them…

    (They are repeated in a caring way, of course).

    And why two questions? Because, like Ceasar’s wife, an M.P. (even a ‘Possible’ M.P.) MUST be ‘transparent in all things’ and above reproach’)

    1. Have you paid your outstanding rates to the Auckland City Council (as you are legally required to do)?

    2. Have you started your investigation into the New Zealand labour [party’s corruption; the corruption that is involving Mr. Liu and Mr. Cunnliffe (as a Public-spirited and self-appointed ANTI-CORRUPTION CAMPAIGNER’ must do to have any credibility anywhere)?

    Answering in the affirmative to these two questions will give you at least a smidgen of credibility, and it might even gain you a vote (or two).

    Answering in the negative, or even not answering at all, will, of course allow everyone to draw their own conclusions about your suitability as a ‘Parliamentary Representative’…

    BTW: You do realise of course that you will be expected to actually RESIDE in Mr. Key’s electorate at the time you are campaigning against him – and even before that event, so that the eligible voters within that electorate actually know who you are?

    (As I said, repeated again, and in a caring way; of course).

    BTW: Which sounds better in your opinion:

    ‘The man from Merrill Lynch’

    or:

    The ‘CORRUPT ANTI-CORRUPTION CAMPAIGNER’?

    Just wondering….

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  148. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    ….”What atheists in NZ have been persecuted by a mainline church?”….

    Directly, none that I’m aware of but that is not how religious power works in modern society. Rather they rely on the fear of ostracism to achieve the same ends though it would be fair to state that even this is on the wane.

    Before you get too wrapped up in the concept of a cuddly, benign Jesus who loves small children remember that only a few centuries ago the Christian church was complicit with witch burners & the murderous activities of the Inquisition.

    It is only the lack of a power base that prevents your nuttier adherents from committing atrocities similar to those practised by Islamists today.

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  149. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    ….”And the fact that we Christians don’t do this, gives the clue you need to recognise and accept that your stated belief which is not the first time you’ve promulgated it, is in fact, absolutely fucking nuts?”….

    You simply don’t have the numbers to force anything…..never have your lot wavered in your desire to have us march in lockstep to the dictates of your beliefs.

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  150. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    So for over 160 years of Christianity in NZ atheists were left alone to disbelieve Any “Christian” radicals in NZ will be well hobbled before they can even plan anything.
    nasska your fear is without grounds.

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  151. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “Only because they have lost the power to enforce compliance otherwise we would face an Inquisition tomorrow morning.”

    “It is only the lack of a power base that prevents your nuttier adherents from committing atrocities similar to those practised by Islamists today.”

    “never have your lot wavered in your desire to have us march in lockstep to the dictates of your beliefs.”

    “The brutal fact however, is that for 90% of your religion’s history, enslaving people was an acceptable thing to do.”

    The OCD crowd are here.

    Funny how some of us just never seem to notice this massive organised attempt at compulsion that overshadows your whole life.

    Beats me why you Christians spend time dealing with these insane losers. Why not just leave them to their sickness. Its up to their families to guide them to sanity, not anyone else.

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  152. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    “never have your lot wavered in your desire to have us march in lockstep to the dictates of your beliefs.”
    Likewise, the secular humanist lot are trying to do that with us.

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  153. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “You appear to be a hard liner who would gift the country to the left were you in charge of policy making.”

    This spurious weak minded argument has been refuted with reason on countless occasions.

    You seem to be a pull string doll with a very few phrases to your repertoire.

    And you’re so called “social liberalism”, which is really just a weak and transparent excuse for libertine like behaviour, is a large part of the reason we have such a huge intrusive state today and out of control govt spending.

    You need to decide if you’re for small govt or big govt that spends taxpayer’s money like water. To me it seems as if you enthusiastically support the latter.

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  154. wreck1080 (3,905 comments) says:

    I thought “labour” were supposed to support working people.

    Why on earth did they oppose the logging of fallen trees? This creates employment for the very people that traditionally would have supported labour. And, in an area that has been losing jobs .

    John Key had a great line….

    “We’re a Government that’s practical enough to know when a storm blows trees over, you can mill them and create jobs.”

    “Compare that with the Labour Party who’d leave all that dead wood lying around doing nothing. Mind you we shouldn’t be surprised because that’s what they do in their own caucus.”

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  155. Gulag1917 (915 comments) says:

    Canterbury forests eg Eyrewell are planted to take into consideration a large wind every thirty years which is when Pinus Radiata are fully matured. There are wind cycles as there are earthquake cycles.

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  156. goldnkiwi (1,303 comments) says:

    Viking2 (11,071 comments) says:

    June 29th, 2014 at 12:11 pm

    Flowing locks? Samson?

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  157. ross411 (834 comments) says:

    lilman (820 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 8:47 am
    Was out for tea last night and our hosts nephew goes to Lord Lucans school,his Aunt was saying that a lot of the boys from his year group are far from happy with the rights fighter and have been warned by their year dean that nothing was to be directed at Lucan.

    I was thinking about Lucan and of course shaking my head that he just won’t follow the rules. But then I wondered why it mattered.

    There are umpteen laws in our society that are arbitrary political currency, which dictate how we may live, because others have decided we have to live how they want. We cannot grow hemp, even though growing it would cross-pollinate and ruin marijuana plantings. We have to pay for other people to raise their families through extra benefits like WFF and paid parental leave. We have to subsidise the life style of others who choose to burden us with their cost of living, through benefits and nonsense like living wages.

    I want the youth of today to stand up to rules that do not matter, taking them to the courts if necessary. I hope they choose wisely, and win. Then when they are older, they will have been taught they do not have to be burdened with all the political crap that the major parties accumulate and lay on us whimsically.

    I’ve done a 180 on this topic. Fight the power Lucan, you go gurl!

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  158. Redbaiter (8,801 comments) says:

    “We cannot grow hemp,”

    You’re on to it.

    That’s exactly the reason thousands died in the American War of Independence.

    Why millions dies fighting Nazism.

    Why defenders of freedom throughout history have fought and died.

    Being stopped from growing hemp was behind it all, and its so good to know that today that reason doesn’t have to be hidden from view any more.

    We can all discard spurious and obviously false justifications like establishing a Constitutional Republic free of the burdens of the European class system, or the defeat of a murderous totalitarian regime bent on world domination and the extermination of the Jews. Ha, they thought they could fool us didn’t they?

    Now thanks to intellectuals like Ross411, it can finally be revealed that it was really about the right to grow hemp. Wonderful. Keep bringing this kind of news to the forum Ross. It so good to see at long last history re-written to represent reality and truth.

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  159. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    “Beats me why you Christians spend time dealing with these insane losers”

    So you’re back to being an Agnostic now Bedwetter?

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  160. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    “What atheists in NZ have been persecuted by a mainline church?”

    Those atheists who wanted a divorce prior to 1963.
    Those atheists who want to have an abortion without going through the façade of claiming a mental illness.
    Those atheists who wanted to have a beer or a wine after 6pm prior to 1967.
    Those atheists who wanted to marry the person they loved prior to 2013.
    Those atheists who wanted to marry a person of Catholic faith.
    Those atheists who want to end their own suffering due to a terminal illness.
    Those atheists who watch or listen to the house every sitting day.

    Atheists continue to be persecuted by stone age superstition to this very day.

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  161. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    We have to subsidise the life style of others who choose to burden us with their cost of living, through benefits and nonsense like living wages.

    Why? Because it is more convenient to conform and pay tax rather than to work outside the system? Because of the threat of being railroaded by an agent of the state in the name of universal obedience? For what reason would you sell your soul to the devil in a pinstripe suit?

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  162. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    Something to put on the record about the Thai coup.

    Most of the useful idiots of course think the army was doing the wrong thing by ousting this guy. The thing the idiots don’t understand, because they’re idiots, is that this guy was a ruthless dictator. The only reason he wins the elections is because the poor people all vote for him for the simple reason that he promises them the earth. But he’s as corrupt as they come and this is why the military has done what it did. But of course the idiots won’t get that. Because they’re idiots. But this gives a brief overview of what he used to do.

    http://altthainews.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/eu-punishes-thailand-for-ousting-mass.html

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  163. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (7,315 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 2:32 pm

    Beats me why you Christians spend time dealing with these insane losers. Why not just leave them to their sickness. Its up to their families to guide them to sanity, not anyone else.

    where did your lot go wrong then?

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  164. ross411 (834 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (7,315 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 3:07 pm
    “We cannot grow hemp,”

    You’re on to it.

    That’s exactly the reason thousands died in the American War of Independence.

    You pick a one line example out of my post and then construct an essay about how I am wrong because that one line by itself is written about negatively in your essay. Can’t you see why your essay is flawed?

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  165. ross411 (834 comments) says:

    UglyTruth (3,755 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 3:28 pm
    Why? Because it is more convenient to conform and pay tax rather than to work outside the system? Because of the threat of being railroaded by an agent of the state in the name of universal obedience? For what reason would you sell your soul to the devil in a pinstripe suit?

    Paying tax is worth it. We all live in this country together. In an ideal world I would pay my share of tax, which would get spent in a worthy accountable fashion. Opting out of paying tax, is to opt out of being a New Zealander. There are things I am happy to subsidise that benefit others. Just not entitlement and limitations because some other part of the population does not like the idea of something which does not harm really them.

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  166. IC5000 (111 comments) says:

    “Reid (15,843 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 3:37 pm
    Something to put on the record about the Thai coup.

    Most of the useful idiots of course think the army was doing the wrong thing by ousting this guy. The thing the idiots don’t understand, because they’re idiots, is that this guy was a ruthless dictator.”

    A dictator who has won every election since 2001

    “The only reason he wins the elections is because the poor people all vote for him for the simple reason that he promises them the earth.”

    Like free medical care and creating economic growth? – Between 2000 and 2004, income in the poorest part of the country, the Northeast, rose 40 per cent while nation-wide poverty fell from 21.3 per cent to 11.3 per cent. Sounds like he did a lot more than promise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premiership_of_Thaksin_Shinawatra

    “But he’s as corrupt as they come and this is why the military has done what it did. But of course the idiots won’t get that.”

    You mean this kind of corruption? http://phuketwan.com/tourism/thai-military-profiting-trade-boatpeople-says-special-report-18454/

    “Because they’re idiots. But this gives a brief overview of what he used to do.”

    Calling you an apologist for the Thai military dictatorship would be giving you credit for having a modicum of intelligence and clearly it is credit you don’t deserve.

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  167. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    Big bruv, don’t forget New Zealand was founded by people who were Christian and the morals and laws of our nation were based on Christian principles until fairly recently. So we would expect Christian laws such as respect for life and marriage therefore Christians are against abortion which is a perfectly reasonable position to anyone that looks at an ultrasound of a baby in utero. And let’s be honest no one even thought of gay marriage until recently so you can’t blame Christians for that.

    In reply to nasska you have stumbled on the truth. Now that we have been to church we are busily plotting how to oppress the atheists especially those in Eketahuna. Even now Christian operatives are heading to your location to conduct witchburnings and restart inquisition proceedings. Elderly Anglicans armed with lethally sharpened knitting needles will begin fiendish sessions of torture upon your person shortly. Be afraid nasska, the knitters are coming!

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  168. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    don’t worry naaska, the southern Vikings will come to your aid and rid your land of the scourge. We are just along the road.
    Recently practiced at rendering witches harmless and we can get johnboy to bring the sheep for th anglican sheep shaggers.

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  169. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    ….”. Be afraid nasska, the knitters are coming!”….

    I’ve always downplayed the Anglican threat…..indeed I thought it would be the left footers who would be the vanguard of the heretic hunters.

    Thanks for the warning. :)

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  170. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Good thinking V2…..a mob of good looking sheep & they’ll be too exhausted to burn witches. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ytpqfov09dor19/Sheep%2014.jpg

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  171. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    naaska, here for some training.

    https://www.facebook.com/TheVikingsHaul?fref=ts

    your castle of course.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=675836409120467&set=a.382608548443256.76185.233283003375812&type=1&theater

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  172. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    Christianity has been the one constant line of defense against Islam over the last 2000yrs. At times it has been the only line of defense. The Knights Templar and the Crusades are testament to that.

    What an utterly stupid thing to say.

    The Crusades were not a defence against anything, they were an invasion of Arab lands; an invasion notable for massacres of entire surrendered cities: men, women and children by the thousands. An invasion so barbaric that it still resonates with Muslims today. And the Templars and the Hospitallers – Christian monks, remember – were up to their necks in these atrocities. It was Saladin, by contrast, who was known for his mercy and magnanimity.

    And let’s not forget that Christians were the ‘one constant line of defense’ against heresy: Christians burning other Christians for being the wrong sort of Christian. Because that’s the reality of any theocracy.

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  173. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Castles are a bit flash for us poor sheep farmers around Eke V2…..we’ll have to fall back & rely on our cuzzies up at Dannevirke. :)

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  174. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    Arab lands?

    wat needs to do some reading.

    Also a bit of a concern the number of the anti Christain bigots who are so bigoted they’ve joined the Muslim camp.

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  175. mandk (992 comments) says:

    big bruv: “Atheists continue to be persecuted by stone age superstition to this very day”

    Nonsense. Do you not recognise the difference between opposition and persecution?
    Labelling something as persecution when it is nothing of the sort is a thought-nazi tactic.

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  176. cricko (330 comments) says:

    It’s staggering, the number of do gooder lefties that are unable to understand that radical islam will
    kill them when they can.

    These drongs think that holding out the hand of friendship to them will change their minds.

    ‘Kin idiots.

    Kinda like Neville Chamberlain or Barry Obama.

    2nd thoughts. Barry Obama knows exactly what he is doing.

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  177. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    So another rouge poll shows Labour under 30%.

    I wonder how many winter BBQ’s will be held this week?

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  178. RF (1,396 comments) says:

    Labour 29 in the latest TV 1 poll tonight….How sad.. How do you like them apples Cunliffe

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  179. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    ….”These drongs think that holding out the hand of friendship to them will change their minds”…..

    You’re not wrong. We’ve got enough religious nutters in this country now without extending an invitation to another variety. :)

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  180. Ross12 (1,425 comments) says:

    Well it looks like Canada has pulled the pin on the USA Keystone pipeline and will sell all its oil to Asia.

    That will help the USA economy !! /sarc

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  181. Manolo (13,746 comments) says:

    Have Griff and stephieboy been invited?
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/29/epa-spends-16-million-on-hotel-for-environmental-justice-conference/

    Nothing to with the war between factions of barbaric Islam. It is AGW’s fault!
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11284185

    A series of U.N. reports released earlier this year found that global warming is already destabilizing nation states around the world, and Syria has been no exception.

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  182. cricko (330 comments) says:

    Sad thing is nasska,
    that these fuckwits believe that New Zealand will be different than any other western country because
    we embrace and celebrate our muslim immigrants more than any others.

    These fuckwits just are not able to read the writing on the wall.

    Even as they get crucified by their muslim ‘friends ‘, these poor drongs still will not get it.

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  183. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    “THE IRRATIONALITY OF ATHEISM

    Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. Atheists tend to put a lot of stock in the emperical method and in logic. One cannot disprove God exists using the emperical method. You might reply: But I can’t disprove a giant purple frog on Mars controls the universe, either. Granted, one can never disprove any given thing exists. The atheistic position denying God’s existence, if based on the emperical method, is absurd. Why do I say that? In order to prove the assertion No God exists experimentally, one would need to comprehensively know all of reality. Comprehensive knowledge of reality is called omniscience. One would need to be omniscient in order to prove there is no God, but if one were omniscient one would, by definition, already be God! So, based on emperical methodology, the only one capable of disproving the existence of God would be God himself! But some would say you can indeed assert something does not exist if its existence is logically self contradictory, such as a square triangle. By definition it cannot exist. It is illogical for something to be a square and to also be a triangle. Again, granted, but this line of reasoning assumes logic and real meaning exist and are our basis for knowledge –something an atheist has no right to assert! The existence of God is not only logically possible, it is philosophically essential. (We’ll get to that more later below.) One cannot prove logic exists unless one first presupposes a God in whom reason and meaning are transcendentally rooted, otherwise these categories are mere philosphical prejuduces. Atheism is inherently self-contradictory.”

    http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm

    Is Atheism Irrational? Apparently, yes.

    “I don’t think arguments are needed for rational belief in God. In this regard belief in God is like belief in other minds, or belief in the past. Belief in God is grounded in experience, or in the sensus divinitatis, John Calvin’s term for an inborn inclination to form beliefs about God in a wide variety of circumstances.

    Nevertheless, I think there are a large number — maybe a couple of dozen — of pretty good theistic arguments. None is conclusive, but each, or at any rate the whole bunch taken together, is about as strong as philosophical arguments ordinarily get.”

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/is-atheism-irrational/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

    Christian Comedian, Brad Stine uses humor (and logic) to show how irrational Atheists really are.

    http://godsnotdeadthemovie.com/blog/this-guy-proves-atheists-are-irrational/

    Atheists want any mention of God removed from the public sphere because it offends them. Who is more irrational, the guy who believes in a God he cannot see, or the guy who is offended by a God he doesn’t believe in! :)

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  184. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Forget the God waffle Shawn…..show us the proof.

    A photo will do for now. :)

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  185. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    “Atheists want any mention of God removed from the public sphere because it offends them.”

    No we don’t. We want it removed because it is a blatant lie.

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  186. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    “Forget the God waffle Shawn…..show us the proof.”

    Translation: “These arguments scare me! So I will ask an irrational question to deflect them!” :)

    God is infinite. Logically, you cannot take a photo of the infinite.

    But thanks for proving my point! :)

    The Irrational Atheist: Dissecting the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, And Hitchens. By Vox Day.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Irrational-Atheist-Dissecting-Hitchens/dp/1933771364

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  187. SGA (1,022 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 6:27 pm

    Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational.

    “tends to” – Shawn, this covers a strawman. Atheism has no requirements about anything except failing to believe in gods and godesses. No more, no less.

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  188. MH (751 comments) says:

    Why hasn’t Lady Hairspray turned the Lucan incident into a cause celebre for the youngstirers and the Interknit Party ? To get youth out to vote, isn’t that what she stands for, or does she just want to become a Lisp MP ? Has Hone been cutting her coat tails to suit his Dotcomb ? Just spitting hairs.

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  189. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    No photo…..no credence. Pick up your pants before you leave. :)

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  190. dad4justice (8,214 comments) says:

    big bigot and narsekisser just for you I was recently reading an article titled “Bad News for Atheists: Scientists Say Universe Shouldn’t Exist if Big Bang Is True”

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  191. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    Seems the old joke about talentless musicians declaring themselves a christian band and they’ll have a ready-made audience applies to painfully unfunny comedians too.

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  192. cricko (330 comments) says:

    MH
    a word to the wise.

    Forget about the haircutting incident.

    Don’t demean yourself dragging it on and on and fricken on.
    It’s just not worth it.

    Just forgedaboutit. (you’ll feel much better, trust me.)

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  193. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    I’ll make it easy for you Shawn….just a picture….no big difficult words. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eki2k9pom97fz9k/Believe.jpg

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  194. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Shawn

    You strike me a person who has never taken the time to research the argument of those who appose you. It seems that your preferred defence against science and reason is to stick your fingers in your ears and yell.

    Why are you so scared of those who do not believe in your god?

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  195. dad4justice (8,214 comments) says:

    Where did I read ?

    “China on course to become ‘world’s most Christian nation’ within 15 years .
    The number of Christians in Communist China is growing so steadily that it by 2030 it could have more churchgoers than America”

    Oh that’s right the Telegraph. Who would have ever thought that eh Christian haters. Quick bb get your thumb down stupid.

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  196. MH (751 comments) says:

    It may be nit picking…I’m just not wise…I’m more Why ?

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  197. cricko (330 comments) says:

    MH
    if that comment is directed to me.

    Because there are so many more things to comment on under the sun.

    This non subject has been done to death. (see above, ad nauseum) FFS

    Get it now ?

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  198. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Atheists want any mention of God removed from the public sphere because it offends them.

    What ‘atheists’ is this referring to? I call bullshit.

    That’s like referring to “Christians” as if they all shared the same beliefs and want exactly the same things. Also nonsensical.

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  199. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    “What ‘atheists’ is this referring to? I call bullshit.”

    You for a start. You have on several occasions insisted that Christians should leave their religious views behind when voting, and recently you said Christians should keep their beliefs to themselves. I call bullshit back! :)

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  200. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    Wat dabney re the crusades, I think you quote accurately the official line, horrible Christians invading peace loving Muslims. But it just wasn’t true. Muslims then are the same as today, Islam is a religion of war. The crusades were the response to centuries of Muslim war and conquest that enabled them to conquer north Africa and much of Europe including Spain. Saladin was not enlightened, he gloried in the massacre of Christians.
    By the time of the first crusade Christianity had been fighting a defensive war with Islam for over 450 years!
    And how come noone asks the Muslims to apologise for all their wars of conquest for hundreds of years?
    Unfortunately many have drunk the leftist Kool aid, the West and Christianity bad, the East and Islam good.
    It’s all nonsense Wat, check historian Rodney Stark for further reading on the real story of the crusades.

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  201. ShawnLH (4,998 comments) says:

    Based on the sheer number of murdered people and horrific crimes, Islam is not a threat to NZ, atheism is.

    USSR — 20 million

    China — 65 million

    Vietnam — 1 million

    North Korea — 2 million

    Cambodia — 2 million

    Eastern Europe — 1 million

    Latin America — 150,000

    Africa — 1.7 million

    Afghanistan — 1.5 million

    Communist movements, parties not in power — 10,000

    Now, atheists try to get around this inconvenient truth by saying that was the fault of Communism. But atheism was one of the primary bedrocks of Marxist ideology and thus cannot be separated from Communism, nor can Communism be rightly understood without understanding it’s atheist foundation.

    So the real threat to human lives is atheism. In fact atheism is the most efficient and successful mass murdering ideology in human history.

    So perhaps we need to stop professing atheists from immigrating to NZ! :)

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  202. Nookin (3,341 comments) says:

    I was really, really comforted to see just how calm and collected the nice Mr Cunliffe was on telly tonight.

    He was not at all discouraged by the latest in a series of polls that have labour plummeting and Mr Cunliffe himself spiralling with such speed that he faces the danger of disappearing up his own orifice.

    He’s my man though. If he can handle this without a trembling upper lip just imagine the stoicism with which he will restrain a growing economy and the determined resolve that will help him repel boatloads of bright and intelligent immigrants with lots and lots of wonderful new business ideas.

    We are just so lucky to have him. He may be flippable and floppable but he is most certainly not flappable.

    Shame on those naughty journalpeople and the nasty nats for be so mean at him.

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  203. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    check historian Rodney Stark

    I did, and a Berkeley graduate in sociology most certainly isn’t an historian.

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  204. cricko (330 comments) says:

    ShawnLH
    is one of those drongs who will still be arguing the toss in favour of his muslim
    mates as they nail him to a cross and crucify him.

    Some fuckwits are just incapable of getting it.

    He will die screaming, ‘Why, I was your friend ?”

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  205. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    You have on several occasions insisted that Christians should leave their religious views behind when voting, and recently you said Christians should keep their beliefs to themselves.

    You’re making things up Shawn.

    It would be ridiculous to ‘insist’ how anyone else should vote. That’s totally up to each individual.

    I don’t believe I’ve said Christians should keep their beliefs to themselves. I’ve said that many do keep their beliefs to themselves in social and work situations, but not that they should. Obviously many Christians like sharing their beliefs with others, that’s sort of what churches are for isn’t it? That’s their choice.

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  206. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    ….”He will die screaming”……

    He’s a religious nut & it’s the way they like to go cricko.

    Strange I know but it’s just one of their kinks. :)

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  207. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Shawnlh

    You really must stop telling such lies.

    “How Many Have Been Killed by Communists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism?:

    None, probably. How can that be? After all, millions and millions of people died in Russia and China under communist governments — and those governments were both secular and atheistic. So weren’t all of those people killed because of atheism — even in the name of atheism and secularism? No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn’t a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness. “

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  208. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Shawnlh

    Don’t forget the six million killed by Hitler during the second world war. Hitler was “a gift from god” to the German people, on the belt buckle of every Germans soldier was a religions inscription. The Vatican ordered that Hitler’s birthday was to be celebrated every year right up until the end of the war.

    Hitler was no atheist Shawn, Hitler was a bible bashing Catholic and another in the long line of people who killed in the name of your god.

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  209. Harriet (4,969 comments) says:

    “…..Now, atheists try to get around this inconvenient truth by saying that was the fault of Communism. But atheism was one of the primary bedrocks of Marxist ideology and thus cannot be separated from Communism, nor can Communism be rightly understood without understanding it’s atheist foundation….”

    Marxism & communism along with atheism being used to achieve them, rose and fell in all those countries[ussr ect] within a 100yr period.

    All three have been involved time and again in the mass killing of humans based upon arbitary decisions.

    And at a time when Christianity was doing the complete opposite!

    Pope John Paul II got rid of communist atheist states! :cool:

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  210. cricko (330 comments) says:

    onya big bruv,

    however the ShawnLHs of this world are not to be argued with,
    they are to be ridiculed and laughed at.

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  211. goldnkiwi (1,303 comments) says:

    Left Right and Centre (2,772 comments) says:

    June 29th, 2014 at 8:02 am

    Not dodgy in my opinion, he may have just had a run on change.

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  212. MH (751 comments) says:

    You just want to bundle the issue up and put it behind you. The nett result is stiffling of democracy,the hair and now. It’s an election issue, mate, the short,the back, and the sides. I’ve cancelled my pensioner haircut due next week. The thin edge of the scimitar, then the scarf, then the burqa. Even Shrek knew what was coming.

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  213. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

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  214. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    big bruv (12,867 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 6:50 pm
    Shawn
    You strike me a person who has never taken the time to research the argument of those who appose you. It seems that your preferred defence against science and reason is to stick your fingers in your ears and yell.

    He did not know the argument from ignorance fallacy

    Why are you so scared of those who do not believe in your god?

    Between the years he spent at theological college and his wife’s profession, he has a lot invested in the existence of a god, particularly the one espoused by Anglicans

    And as if on cue he pops up with an ignorant argument which has been proven incorrect previously
    As I have stated before there are certain arguments on KB which are the philosophical equivalent of banging your head against a brick wall, where the closed mind of the opposition renders any debate pointless
    Ugly Truth on Law
    Reid on conspiracies
    Rowan on evolution
    Redbaiter on anything
    Shawn on atheism
    Having said that, I haven’t noticed Shawn claim atheism is a satanic cult recently

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  215. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Atheism: The belief that we have a long way to go before we even begin to understand the infinite complexities of the universe.

    Religion: “The big magic sky-man made it all, now give me some money.”

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  216. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Religion: Wainui will win the Jubilee cup!
    Atheism: The semi-Catholics will win the Jubilee cup! :)

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  217. kowtow (8,439 comments) says:

    “Gott mit uns” pre dated Hitler.

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  218. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Evening Johnboy

    Have you spent the day at the top of the hill looking for fast approaching Red Commodores?

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  219. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Quite so kowtow. Late Roman, early Byzantine battle cry! :)

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  220. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    ““Gott mit uns” pre dated Hitler.”

    Indeed, however it was Hitler who took it off the helmet and placed it on the belt buckle. Hitler killed in the name of his God.

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  221. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    You have to admit she’s a feisty bitch bb. I hope she trades up to one of them 430kw LSA’s! :)

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  222. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    She is indeed Johnboy, you better hope she is blonde.

    Oh…and don’t stand behind the car when she is backing out of your driveway.

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  223. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    From the Diary of a Religious Man:

    My Master dominates me every minute. He makes rules for me and I follow his wishes. He watches me all the time and I can only talk to him in a whisper, with my eyes closed and on my knees, at his mercy. At his whim. Waiting for him to take me…

    It’s hard being Anglican sometimes.

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  224. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Once she’s parked on my hardstanding she’ll never want to leave bb! :)

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  225. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Fuckin Minus! He’s like rust and cancer! :)

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  226. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    All the same Johnboy, it might pay to grab a hold of the keys and don’t let them out of your sight.

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  227. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Depends were she hides them bb! :)

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  228. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    If you want something to compare a V8 Commodore to JB, there’s a bloke who comments on here who might be able to help.

    He’s got a V8 Mustang with trainer wheels. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5q02xwx9i4czmb/Wankstain%201.jpg

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  229. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    As long as Judiths big fat limited slip rear end doesn’t come with trainer wheels I’ll be happy nasska! :)

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  230. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    nasska

    Whose owns the Mustang?

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  231. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    As I have stated before there are certain arguments on KB which are the philosophical equivalent of banging your head against a brick wall, where the closed mind of the opposition renders any debate pointless

    Have you considered the possibility that you are projecting and that you are unable to argue simply because you are wrong?

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  232. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    Baity. :)

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  233. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    You’re fucking kidding???

    They allow a car like that at his rest home?

    Mind you, I am not surprised given he is very much a plastic yank.

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  234. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Well seeing the new love of my life isn’t here tonight I might bugger off and she if she’s posted any new photo’s on Ero Porn! :)

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  235. nasska (11,478 comments) says:

    I’ve got a link but it’s on the desktop BB….I’ll put it up sometime. :)

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  236. Griff (7,683 comments) says:

    And when God, who created the entire universe with all of its glories, decides to deliver a message to humanity, He will not use a person on cable TV in a bad suit, with a bad hairstyle, as His messenger.

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  237. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    I think you quote accurately the official line, horrible Christians invading peace loving Muslims.

    You really savage that strawman, Scott. How sound your argument must be.

    If you find yourself defending the barbaric atrocities perpetrated by the Crusaders you have already lost the argument.

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  238. freemark (580 comments) says:

    For those who get upset about drone strikes and the sad consequences of the Muslim extremists hiding behind innocents.. no doubt you will remember and sympathise with these victims of collateral damage – accidentally targeted of course. Those who try to paint JK & his supporters as some kind of supporters of evil are the enemy in our country – fair game for attack IMO.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b34GCpCS7Ds

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  239. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    Now, atheists try to get around this inconvenient truth by saying that was the fault of Communism. But atheism was one of the primary bedrocks of Marxist ideology and thus cannot be separated from Communism

    Er, I’m an atheist and I’m at the opposite end of the spectrum from communism.

    There, I just separated the two for you.

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  240. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Hey freemark,

    fuck you

    But what is unsaid in all of the court rulings is that Mr. Latif was imprisoned not by evidence of wrongdoing, but by accident of birth. In Guantánamo’s contorted system of justice, the decision to detain him indefinitely turned on his citizenship, not on his conduct.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/opinion/life-and-death-at-guantanamo-bay.html?_r=0

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  241. SGA (1,022 comments) says:

    Scott at 5:33 pm

    In reply to nasska you have stumbled on the truth. Now that we have been to church we are busily plotting how to oppress the atheists especially those in Eketahuna. Even now Christian operatives are heading to your location to conduct witchburnings and restart inquisition proceedings.

    Eketahuna… mercy killings have their place, I suppose.

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  242. freemark (580 comments) says:

    Hey UglyLiar

    You prolong the suffering of innocent children everywhere by your support of the cowardly nasties. You & your lying mates are the enemy of decent people everywhere. History shows us who’s side you are on.. no doubt you would have defended the instigators and attacked the victims and saviours here…

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  243. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    And we’re done.

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  244. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    The TV1 poll has Labour on29%.

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  245. Nostalgia-NZ (5,193 comments) says:

    So that’s around 41% toward a government of Lab/Green Chuck before adding any other potential coalition partners. 6% off the Nats. Hard call this one, Maori vote remains critical in another interesting election. Looking to see how the traditional Maori and PI vote goes in the areas where Labour has lost ground, and whether that reforms in some way. I’m picking the final figures will give a contrast of the vote in the ‘old’ Labour strongholds and across Auckland in particular where the I feel the Green vote will lift. The Nats are trying to outgreen the Greens as they continue to work into the blue collar brigade, something they’re doing very cleverly. I guess a question will be as to how much those of lower incomes will be offered by the Nats come September.

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  246. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    Couple of things, Hitler wasn’t a christian. No one except for Kea and a few crazy people believe that. His glorification of the strong and the destruction of the weak is the absolute antithesis of Christianity.
    Regarding atheism and communism there is special pleading here. All those mass murdering atheists, Stalin, Mao etc killed because of their communism and had nothing to do with their atheism. How do you know this?
    Lenin for example hated the church and during his time in power oversaw the slaughter of some 2000 priests and pastors and the destruction of many churches.
    The facts are we have many atheists who have come to power and many of them have become mass murderers. Now it could be communism that’s been the problem? But the fact remains that the most tyrannical murderous leaders of the 20th century have been atheists.
    Once you reject God it seems to you become a complete prick if you ever get the opportunity to exercise political power. I would suggest atheism motivated the communist leaders conduct. Shawn is right in my opinion, atheism lies at the heart of communism.

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  247. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Scott (1,659 comments) says:
    June 29th, 2014 at 10:28 pm
    Couple of things, Hitler wasn’t a christian. No one except for Kea and a few crazy people believe that. His glorification of the strong and the destruction of the weak is the absolute antithesis of Christianity.
    Regarding atheism and communism there is special pleading here. All those mass murdering atheists, Stalin, Mao etc killed because of their communism and had nothing to do with their atheism. How do you know this?
    Lenin for example hated the church and during his time in power oversaw the slaughter of some 2000 priests and pastors and the destruction of many churches.
    The facts are we have many atheists who have come to power and many of them have become mass murderers. Now it could be communism that’s been the problem? But the fact remains that the most tyrannical murderous leaders of the 20th century have been atheists.
    Once you reject God it seems to you become a complete prick if you ever get the opportunity to exercise political power. I would suggest atheism motivated the communist leaders conduct. Shawn is right in my opinion, atheism lies at the heart of communism.

    Define the special pleading you are asserting backed up with evidence that atheism was the motivation for the actions of Stalin, Mao etc.

    The reason you agree with Shawn is that you share his flawed understanding of the term atheism
    Atheism is a single answer to the single question of; Do you believe in the existence of a god or gods?
    It is the disbelief or lack of belief in answer to that question.
    It is not an ideology or a worldview or a doctrine.
    There are no rituals, teachings, sacred texts, creeds or dogma.
    An atheist is not required to take any action or think in any particular way or conform to any political position.
    Atheists do not have to have anything in common with other atheists except the lack of belief
    To attribute anything more than the one statement of non belief to atheism is intellectually dishonest. As is denying Hitler’s connection to the Catholic Church

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  248. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    Hitler wasn’t a christian

    None of you are.

    “For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of
    a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant
    changes in its outward structure? …Here, too, we can learn by the
    example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in
    part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and
    research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one
    little syllable of its dogmas… it is only such dogmas which lend to
    the whole body the character of a faith.”

    – Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 5

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  249. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    Richard X – you are doing the classic atheist thing when you are challenged on your beliefs you deny that you believe anything. But then we have atheists on this blog all day long denigrating the church, denigrating God and spreading their atheist beliefs.

    So which is it? If you have atheists have nothing to say then shut they heck up. The fact is you do have something to say, which is generally the opposite of what the Bible says and what the Christian position is.

    And to say that Hitler was a Christian is insane. Yes he was photographed attending church for propaganda purposes. But to think that any of his agenda reflects the mind of Christ is completely nuts. He was the veritable Antichrist.

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  250. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Scott (1,661 comments) says:
    June 30th, 2014 at 10:43 am
    Richard X – you are doing the classic atheist thing when you are challenged on your beliefs you deny that you believe anything. But then we have atheists on this blog all day long denigrating the church, denigrating God and spreading their atheist beliefs.
    So which is it? If you have atheists have nothing to say then shut they heck up. The fact is you do have something to say, which is generally the opposite of what the Bible says and what the Christian position is.
    And to say that Hitler was a Christian is insane. Yes he was photographed attending church for propaganda purposes. But to think that any of his agenda reflects the mind of Christ is completely nuts. He was the veritable Antichrist.

    Atheists do not deny they believe anything, just the existence of a god or gods. It is a simple concept.
    The point I made, which appears to have gone over your head, was that you are lumping all atheists, and what they actually believe, together in some homologous group when that is intellectually dishonest

    To repeat; the only thing atheists have in common with other atheists is the lack of belief. Some atheists want to enforce a separation of church & state in NZ, some don’t care. Some think all religious adherents are idiots, some don’t. These are personal views that can not be attributed to atheists as a group.
    Are you telling me all Christians hold the same beliefs as the Westboro Baptist Church? After all, you are all Christians.

    As for Hitler, have you looked into the actions, and in some instances the lack of action taken by the Vatican during the 30’s & 40’s? It is less insane to call him a Catholic than it is to blame atheism for the actions of Stalin Mao etc. I am not saying Hitler’s views are 100% in accordance with Catholic doctrine but you need to look at some of the history and not just the revisionist versions put out by the Vatican. In the mean time, you have not shown that Stalin or Mao’s actions are in accordance with any atheist doctrine

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  251. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    So atheism does not lead to any action? Of course it does. Even now atheists have organised petitions and court cases to pull down Christian monuments that offend their delicate sensibilities. They do this because they are atheists. Atheists believe two things- There is no God and I hate him.

    But to get back to Stalin and Lenin et al. Lenin hated the church. This was because of his atheism. He persecuted the church. This was because of his atheism. Lenin literally gained power on Monday, took the day to install the phones and tidy his desk and on Tuesday started arresting pastors and priests. Why? Because he was an atheist that hated the church.

    Atheism is a spiritual condition of hatred for God and his church and of course it leads to action-against God and his church.
    Now you might say,”Well I am different from those atheists,I would never oppress the church!”

    Well bully for you. The fact remains that the atheists who have gained power have a remarkable tendency to oppress the church and make war against their own countrymen. Once you decide there is no God then all sorts of consequences follow if you have the ability and power to act out your ideas.

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  252. Scott (1,792 comments) says:

    Now when you run nations according to Christian principles we get western civilisation. And I sure prefer Western civilisation to the USSR and North Korea.

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  253. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Scott (1,664 comments) says:
    June 30th, 2014 at 2:21 pm
    So atheism does not lead to any action? Of course it does. Even now atheists have organised petitions and court cases to pull down Christian monuments that offend their delicate sensibilities. They do this because they are atheists. Atheists believe two things- There is no God and I hate him.
    But to get back to Stalin and Lenin et al. Lenin hated the church. This was because of his atheism. He persecuted the church. This was because of his atheism. Lenin literally gained power on Monday, took the day to install the phones and tidy his desk and on Tuesday started arresting pastors and priests. Why? Because he was an atheist that hated the church.
    Atheism is a spiritual condition of hatred for God and his church and of course it leads to action-against God and his church.
    Now you might say,”Well I am different from those atheists,I would never oppress the church!”
    Well bully for you. The fact remains that the atheists who have gained power have a remarkable tendency to oppress the church and make war against their own countrymen. Once you decide there is no God then all sorts of consequences follow if you have the ability and power to act out your ideas.

    The US cases to remove Christian monuments from public property refers to the interpretation of the 1st Amendment to the US constitution. It is a principled legal argument and to suggest it has anything to do with ”delicate sensibilities” is, once again, intellectually dishonest.

    You do realise the inherent contradiction in your statement ” Atheists believe two things- There is no God and I hate him.
    How can I hate something I do not believe exists?

    Atheism does not have to lead to anything. As previously posted some atheists choose some actions just as some Christians, such as the Westboro Baptists, choose some actions
    Do you hold all the same beliefs as the Westboro Baptists? Do you support them in all their actions? You share some of their beliefs so by necessity, you have far more in common with them than I have with other atheists

    Lenin’s attacks on the church were due to the power of the church which could have prevented him from reaching his goals, not because of his atheism. He used atheism like Hitler used Catholicism.
    You appear to be confusing atheism with a political ideology
    You have made this assertion several times but have yet to provide any evidence of an atheistic doctrine that supports your assertion

    Atheism is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods.
    You don’t have to believe me on this, you can check the definition in any dictionary
    Anything beyond that definition is your projection based on your world view and unsupported by evidence, just like your god.

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  254. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Scott, first there is the claim that atheists have a spiritual condition that leads them to hate something they do not believe exists.

    Second there is the claim that these atheists are a threat to the Church.

    Third there is the belief that the unsaved need to be saved by the Church and that the ultimate good is the work of the Church in saving humanity.

    Thus arises the need to isolate the threat to the Churches work from the rest of humanity so that it can be saved. Thus the need for pits and prisons to incarcerate the atheist and to enable their re-education before any release into the light of public life.

    Of course even worse than the atheist is the heretic within the faith or those of rival faith and thus more extreme measures such as the Inquisition and the crusade are/were required.

    We can note the parallel to the way the left winger or liberal is also seen by Christian conservatives as a threat to “western civilisation” and how in any conflict whether a Cold War or a security crisis (war against terrorism), this can be used to diminish respect for civil liberty and protection from arbitrary use of government power.

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