General Debate 9 August 2014

August 9th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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244 Responses to “General Debate 9 August 2014”

  1. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    Anders Crofoot is Federated Farmers vice president. He came to New Zealand from USA, 16 years ago. He puts his view on the foreign ownership of New Zealand land debate.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/countrylife
    ………..

    I came in cashed up whereas a Kiwi would have had to take on debt. “I could just go ahead and develop”

    This is the “Kiwis just cant afford these prices” justification used by Bayley’s real estate in reference to an iconic landscape. As David Parker said on Campbell Live: I don’t want a New Zealand sharemilker to be outbid by a wealthy person or company from overseas.”

    “We are a land of immigrants..”

    Appeal to tradition fallacy.
    ….
    A program is biased if they don’t air both sides of an argument.

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  2. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    Dime –

    That was me that predicted Millie Holmes’ story would become an ‘Our Millie’ debacle in the NZ Herald. What they do is try to create B and C celebrities out of things like this in order to get ‘exclusive’ stories in even crapper sister publications – Exhibit A: Anna Guy.

    Got another prediction for you:

    NZ Police will not be able to exhume James Takamore’s body. The Maoris will defy them to the last and just as they did in South Auckland with the murdered Kahui twins, the Police will dither and the whole thing will fizzle out, as the State is terrified of upsetting Maori TM. They’ve already apologised for going about what I would have thought was entirely routine and appropriate Police business in the Ureweras, considering what was going on.

    This Takamore situation in particular should be the clarion call for Conservative, ACT and NZ First to take to the constituency leading up to the election. If they can’t make hay out of this, and if NZ can’t see what’s going on now, they never will

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  3. lolitasbrother (749 comments) says:

    Be fierce and strong people , this is your Country, if you and I will not do it, will you leave your children to socialists, money printers and Hitler ideaism, and see them gone to Cunliffe. Be fierce and strong and we will sort things out soon. Walk on the beach head New Zealanders

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  4. ChrisM (106 comments) says:

    To show just how stupid Parker’s statement is, sharemilkers wouldn’t be interested in Lochiner. It isn’t that type of farm. The only NZ organisation that could afford it, even at a discount, would be a large corporate. Sharemilkers would be interested in those farms that the US and Scandanavians recently bought, but there is no political capital for xenophobic opposition to them.

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  5. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    Duggledog- I see ‘Our Millie’s’ tragic lovestory is front page of the Herald again this morning…
    The new Anna Guy?

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  6. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    The discharge without conviction and permanent name suppression for the killer of Stephen Dudley is an outrage. The law must change so judges are better qualified and accountable.

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  7. FeralScrote (226 comments) says:

    Bizarre phenomena out west,along Henderson Valley rd at collection of political billboards the only board to be graffitied is Hone Harawiras one .LoL

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  8. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    ChrisM

    So a countries land market should reflect international prices regardless of the fundamentals of the local economy? In whose interest?

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  9. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    Also – to put the Crafar / Lochinvar ‘crisis’ into perspective –

    Middle NZ has a problem with both sales because they are to the Chinese. Absolutely. Nobody gives a shit about selling off parcels to Twain, Cameron etc because quite simply they are PLU.

    I daresay most New Zealanders have been to Auckland over the last decade and seen how the place has become swamped with Asians; spitting, creating enclaves, buying all the houses and displaying their wealth by giving their kids brand new BMWs. That’s what they talk about in the provinces and putting the debate about sales to foreigners aside, this one’s all about perception.

    Trying to convince Kiwis otherwise is electoral suicide. No idea how this administration is going to sugar coat it, but it’s a lightning rod issue for sure. Simply saying ‘Labour sold way more than us’ isn’t going to cut it.

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  10. Griff (8,197 comments) says:

    Millie’s boy friend was a member of a criminal network and dies in a street brawl We are then told how sad the family is
    You have made me happy. One less piece of trash in the world. Hope you get to be sad much more often.
    Scum scooter trash .

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  11. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    Those who say “NZ needs capital” (in relation to purchasing and developing farms) are adding insult to injury. Read the Savings Working Group report (all that is missing is motive: vested interest and progressive internationalism).

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  12. hmmokrightitis (1,595 comments) says:

    Dear Silent T,

    Just in case you didn’t know, you disgust me. You equivocate about Mana Internet, claiming they will “not form part of a labour led government”. But we all know that means you will look to them for confidence and supply. And we also know that you’ve hung Kelvin Davis out to dry.

    Look at what you have become, you pale shadow of a man – a man who apologises for being a man.

    You, sir, are not worthy to be considered a leader of anything other than the most feral, morally bereft of people. You should, but I know you will not be, utterly ashamed. And to think the media have closed in and refuse to report your other personal antics.

    You morally bankrupt fraud. Beneath contempt, leading the contemptuous.

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  13. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    duggledog (1,379 comments) says:
    Nobody gives a shit about selling off parcels to Twain, Cameron etc because quite simply they are PLU.
    ……
    They are also popular hero’s (as movie directors and country singers are). Even Tommy Suharto was colourful. That doesn’t apply to a Chinese property developer: evictions, thugs, graft. Cameron is a hero because in his movies those people get their heads blown off.
    I think the Chinese are seen as expansionist.

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  14. David Garrett (7,556 comments) says:

    Dime: I am with you on the Takamore case…how utterly disgraceful that the Police left the scene “because there was likely to be trouble’…dealing with “trouble” is what they are supposed to do FFS! And you are absolutely right about them being terrified of upsetting maori…imagine what would have happened if the family at the cemetery were white…they would have got one warning for obstruction, and then arrested…

    So the situation now is that the highest court in the land – excepting parliament – has decreed that Ms Clark may have her partner’s body to bury where she sees fit…and the Police will not prevent disorder to allow that Order to be effected… that is a very very bad situation…As you say, unless they go in there in sufficient numbers very smartly it’s likely nothing will happen…which will establish the precedent that Orders of the Supreme Court are relegated to the status of suggestions if you are Maori..

    Connor Morris was a gang member…there is no such thing as a “good” gang member…once that patch is on the back, you are by definition an “outlaw” – someone who cocks a snook at the law and lives outside it…

    And as for the Herald, New Zealand’s former journal of record, its transformation to tabloid is complete…

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  15. lolitasbrother (749 comments) says:

    err, you do understand do you farrar, medals lost,
    we would like to keep our own Country, do you understand farrar

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  16. lolitasbrother (749 comments) says:

    hmmokrightitis (1,524 comments) says: August 9th, 2014 at 8:32 am
    a man with strength in his heart says

    quote
    Dear Silent T,
    Just in case you didn’t know, you disgust me. You equivocate about Mana Internet, claiming they will “not form part of a labour led government”. But we all know that means you will look to them for confidence and supply. And we also know that you’ve hung Kelvin Davis out to dry.

    Look at what you have become, you pale shadow of a man – a man who apologises for being a man.

    You, sir, are not worthy to be considered a leader of anything other than the most feral, morally bereft of people. You should, but I know you will not be, utterly ashamed. And to think the media have closed in and refuse to report your other personal antics.
    You morally bankrupt fraud. Beneath contempt, leading the contemptuous.
    hmmokrightitis (1,524 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 8:32 am
    Dear Silent T,

    Just in case you didn’t know, you disgust me. You equivocate about Mana Internet, claiming they will “not form part of a labour led government”. But we all know that means you will look to them for confidence and supply. And we also know that you’ve hung Kelvin Davis out to dry.

    Look at what you have become, you pale shadow of a man – a man who apologises for being a man.

    You, sir, are not worthy to be considered a leader of anything other than the most feral, morally bereft of people. You should, but I know you will not be, utterly ashamed. And to think the media have closed in and refuse to report your other personal antics.You morally bankrupt fraud. Beneath contempt, leading the contemptuous.
    end quote

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  17. Tarquin North (361 comments) says:

    A Mana billboard turned up in Ruakaka yesterday. Looks like someone drove over it last night. How sad never mind. The JK one just down the road is still standing, so is the weird Democrats one.

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  18. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    I was on the phone a couple of days ago; I’m looking out my window. Along comes my Chinese neighbor. He tips up the letter box and pulls out the mail. The letters stay in one hand and the junk mail went straight to the ground. Apart from the fact that a lot of them don’t speak English I don’t have any complaint (I’m enriched by the diversity of my once mono cultural Kiwi neighborhood- I can visit China without leaving China). Although I did see a couple walking down the street and a tall woman is waving her arms around disdainfully as though she was going to demolish the whole neighborhood and build a Chinatown.

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  19. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    David can you please explain how the police can be served a trespass order as reported in the media when the police are enforcing a Supreme Court order.

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  20. georgebolwing (1,011 comments) says:

    Having read the judge’s reasons in the Stephen Dudley case ( http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/cases/r-v-m/at_download/fileDecision), it is clear that she was severely constrained by what the prosecution did. “M” was not charged with manslaughter, since Stephen Dudley’s unknown medical condition meant that a conviction was highly unlikely. M pleaded guilty to a charge of assault with intent to injure. As a result, Stephen Dudley’s subsequent death could not be taken into account in the sentencing. The case in front of the judge was about a schoolyard brawl. If not for Stephen’s undiagnosed heart
    condition, the matter would probably not have been referred to the police. Given this, discharge without conviction seems reasonable.

    At the risk of being slammed with massive down-thumbs, I will say that I think it is a good thing that decisions like this are taken out of the hands of grieving parents and given to dispassionate judges, advised by skilled advocates.

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  21. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  22. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Hamas refuses to extend the ceasefire and the left liberals continue to lobby against Israel

    In the meantime jihadists around the world are beheading Christians, forcing children up mountains to die of thirst and taking over critical infrastructure. This struggles to even be mentioned in major news outlets

    Where is the real monster? Just like with Nazism there is a real potential for the world to wake up in 10 years to discover half the planet is living under sharia law

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  23. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Gaza Bishop: Hamas Used Church to Fire Rockets

    Archbishop Alexios is Gaza’s most prominent Christian leader. His decision to open his church to 2,000 Muslims escaping the war surprised many of Gaza’s residents.
    So what does Hamas do?
    It uses the church compound as a base to fire rockets at Israeli civilians.

    http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2014/August/Gaza-Bishop-Hamas-Used-Church-to-Fire-Rockets-/

    We are still waiting for Ban Ki Moon to:
    1. Condemn Hamas for using mosques, hospitals, churches and schools as military bases.
    2. Apologise for blaming Israel for hitting al-Shifa Hospital and the Beach (Shati) camp.
    3. Apologize for letting Hamas use UN construction material to build milatairy infrastructure.
    4. Apologize for letting Hamas use UN schools the store weapons and rockets (Three times).

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  24. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    David can you please explain how the police can be served a trespass order as reported in the media when the police are enforcing a Supreme Court order.

    Because “Supreme Court” is only a title, while a tresspass order is based on the law of the land.

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  25. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    David Garrett
    The police said “our job is to keep the peace” and the Grandfather said “you’ll have to put a bullet through my head”. Would a white person have got away with that?

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  26. Griff (8,197 comments) says:

    A man has been arrested and charged with murder following the death of a baby girl in South Auckland.

    Police say a post mortem examination that was conducted yesterday revealed that the baby girl suffered a fractured skull and broken leg. The five-month-old died on Thursday in Pukekohe.

    Any bets as to the race of the killer?

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  27. georgebolwing (1,011 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird:

    As I understand it, Mr Takamore’s widow had a court order allowing them to disinter his body voluntarily. Since that was not allowed by the other side of his family, the matters is going back to the High Court in ChCh, where an order for a forced internment may issue.

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  28. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    DG (it was me not Dime but I bet he’s with me on this one) – what I’m saying is NZF / Cons. / ACT are utterly spoiled for choice over the next few weeks on how to illustrate one of their main policy platforms – Maori privilege and racial preference.

    They can update the NZ Police’s decisions on what to do (or not to do) about Takamore ON A DAILY BASIS, along with bringing up the ‘Maori King”s son’s reprieve, Whanau Ora, Ngai Tahu’s tax exemption and so on and so on and so on.

    Problem is they will most likely cancel each other out and NZ will carry on as before. If only all three could sit down, work out which policies they can all agree on and form one political party then it would be all over in two months!

    But this will never happen.

    Ugly Truth – Tuhoe can put a big fence around ‘their land’ then, if they have a history of telling the Crown to get stuffed, and we can all stay the f*** away from them. Nothing in, nothing out but that includes my tax dollars

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  29. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    The truth also needs to be told about the UNRWA that runs the schools in Gaza. Most people assume because of the inclusion of UN that these are foreign run and staffed. In fact 90 to 99% of staff at each school come from Gaza and the western head of UNRWA has admitted some of the staff are Hamas and he didn’t have a problem with that

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  30. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    georgebolwing
    At the risk of being slammed with massive down-thumbs, I will say that I think it is a good thing that decisions like this are taken out of the hands of grieving parents and given to dispassionate judges, advised by skilled advocates.
    …..
    what about the liberal influence for instance Geoffrey Palmer “prison shouldn’t be for punishment” (and liberals dominate politics)?

    How many of these unprovoked attacks aren’t straight out racist attacks?

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  31. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    I’ve got no problem on Chinese buying Lochinvar Station as there is massive downstream benefit.

    The most positive thing for NZ would be the Chinese buy up parts of northland, make big investments and create some jobs.

    I have a broader problem with the general immigration rules where non-English speaking parents can coat tail in on family reunification rules, have no chance of ever working, won’t ever integrate and are a cost to the county

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  32. lolitasbrother (749 comments) says:

    you know that the south raider means UN is united to anything except Islam ,die in your trenches here Islam terror. well he also supports China buy NZ the fool on the hill. Where have you travelled idiot

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  33. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    “prison shouldn’t be for punishment”

    Actually, that is not a bad statement. If we regarded prisons more as a means of protection for the general public, rather than a means of punishment, we would be able to keep prisoners in their longer under the premise that letting them out would be putting the public at risk.

    As it stands, we look at them as punishment, something which can have a finite period. Five years, and you’ve served your ‘punishment’ for that particular crime – too bad if you are still mentally unstable, an active gang member, a psychopath, etc – “you’ve served your punishment so off you go”.

    Using prisons for the purpose of protecting innocents is exactly how we should regard them and would allow offenders to be kept locked up until they were no longer dangerous!

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  34. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    The police commissioner needs to get to that cemetary and apologise for his officers’ actions.

    Another child murdered.wow Sue Bradfords’ bill really did fix the problem like they said it would.

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  35. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    The police commissioner needs to get to that cemetary and apologise for his officers’ actions.

    The actions of officers of the law are based on law, not on need.

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  36. bringbackdemocracy (428 comments) says:

    The anti-smacking law has only two faults.
    1) What it does do. Criminalise good parents
    2) What it doesn’t do. Stop child abuse. 32% increase since the law’s passing

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11306412

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  37. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    David Garrett (6,527 comments) says:

    August 9th, 2014 at 8:35 am

    Dime: I am with you on the Takamore case
    ****

    You folks might have shown a bit more overt (expletive deleted) anger….. But A++

    Excellent analysis.
    F :-)

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  38. wiseowl (934 comments) says:

    DG,
    Can you perhaps clarify. If the Supreme Court makes a decision and that is defied, to which court does one seek guidance.

    To give the finger to the highest court in New Zealand must be a first and shows what toohoy really think.

    The apology and handout were a waste of time and considering they didn’t sign the treaty shouldn’t have been eligible for a cent.

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  39. cas (40 comments) says:

    Re the Takamore case, the police should have anticipated trouble and brought in reinforcements or appropriate cultural advisors. The family etc had been dealing with two kaumatua from the marae who had been supportive so obviously a spilt in the ranks.

    When Takamore’s body was first abducted the local police knew what was to transpire and possibly could have prevented his burial except the local Sergeant at the time said they had developed good relationships with the hapu and didn’t want to put them in jeopardy or words to that effect.

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  40. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    No anti smacking law was ever going to stop children being murdered. The parent that kills is in an irrational state and no law was going to stop that. What it does stop is the mindless parents who think that hitting a child around the head, or with a stick or implement, is a reasonable way to punish them.

    The law has been successful in doing that – it has made reasonable parents think about what they are doing when they hit out in anger, rather than under control. Which is how it should be.

    Despite the best efforts of the Colin Craigs of the is world, the statistics do not support them. There have not been hundreds of parents dragged before the courts for giving their child a controlled smack.

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  41. David Garrett (7,556 comments) says:

    Chuck: I have no idea how or why the police seemed to think they had to obey a trespass notice when what they were doing is – supposedly – maintaining the peace while an order of the Court is carried out…

    someone has said something about the order only covering a voluntary exhumation…I seem to remember seeing something about that…So this poor woman has to return to the High Court yet again, at huge expense…and if I was her, I would have absolutely no confidence that the police would enforce any future order any more than they have (not) enforced this one…

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  42. IGM (527 comments) says:

    Interesting to note Judge Winkelmann is another Labour appointment. Is it not time all these socialist appointees were investigated . . . their sentences are disgraceful, and the scum they are acquitting make policing a waste of time.

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  43. iMP (2,422 comments) says:

    Tv3’s THE NATION programme, described as “in-depth current affairs.” More like “selective, one over.”

    Good on Colin Craig for exposing the media factionalism and forcing himself on in the name of balance and fairness.

    And a High Court judge agreed.

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  44. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    DG

    If a person leaves a Will stating where they want to be buried, does that hold in law, or does it just give one particular side more weight, but is not binding?

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  45. stephieboy (3,405 comments) says:

    This from a recent TM post on a thread about Fligh M17,

    “The mundane and tragic probability is was an accidental shoot down by separatists who mistook Mi-17 for a Ukrainian military aircraft, Aircraft they had shot down before, only a few days earlier in fact. This cannot compete with the excitement some feel about a “conspiracy” they get to selectively troll the internet feeding their conformation bias selecting only the sites that agree, ignore all the ones that disagree, critical thinking is irreverent when you can use the deaths of people to make you feel superior.”

    Doesn’t this remind one of of certain somebody or somebodies who spam ( err sorry posts ) on KB.?

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  46. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    Knowing some of the Takemore family rather well I can say that this is not a situation where everyone agrees with those making all the noise and being destructive.

    Other siblings of James have made their wishes clear but when the time comes they may well be ignored.

    Its about family power and who runs that Urapa.

    Like most religious sycophants its their “rights” that matter and not the desires of the non believers.

    So just saying, don’t tar all Tuhoe nor all Takemore’s with the same brush as many of you are want to do.

    As for the Police. Well this is actually a Civil matter and usually when that is the case the police will not intervene. so their role remains to keep the peace. Fairly simple and straight forward I would have thought.

    DG you may well have a different interpretation of this but please let us know how a civil matter becomes a police criminal matter.

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  47. oldpark (382 comments) says:

    Was trying to work out who in NZ at the moment could be classed as public enemy Number One.First we have John Minto,a nomad for lost causes, and comes under the category of a “SVENGALI”.Lila Harre or is it Mata Harre,or even a modern day” JUDAS”.They are the puppets of an international criminal called SCHMIDZ/DOTCON wanted by the FBI.DOTCON now known as a sugar daddy, to all who suck off his huge obese frame,helping him to manufacture hateful dissension in the land of NZ.

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  48. calendar girl (1,266 comments) says:

    Judith @9:06 – There’s obvious merit in using imprisonment to protect the general public. However:

    “Using prisons for the purpose of protecting innocents is exactly how we should regard them and would allow offenders to be kept locked up until they were no longer dangerous!”

    But who would make the decisions? The present Parole Board whose decisions are frequently seen by many of us as being “soft”? Bleeding-heart public servants? I don’t think so.

    Better to add an automatic parole period (of the same length) to every finite prison sentence – that could allow a re-offender to be re-imprisoned quickly and effectively – with appropriate safeguards – without waiting on delays in the creaking criminal court system for a full trial. In addition, remove (or sharply reduce the length of) the existing automatic parole “entitlements” after part of the sentence has been served.

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  49. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Chuck: I have no idea how or why the police seemed to think they had to obey a trespass notice when what they were doing is – supposedly – maintaining the peace while an order of the Court is carried out…

    Notice the use of titles here: “Court” rather than a real court with real jurisdiction.

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  50. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    Where is the outrage?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11022879/Iraq-crisis-The-streets-of-Erbils-newly-Christian-suburb-are-now-full-of-helpless-people.html

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  51. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    georgebolwing (633 comments) says:

    August 9th, 2014 at 8:49 am

    ****

    Well said, and accurate.

    The medical condition (unknown) was the killer.

    I think the youth pleading guilty to a SERIOUS CHARGE should have received punishment.
    But again, if a Conviction is not entered on the charge, then punishment options are limited. What more could have been done I leave to others. But whatever it is, if must be more than a rant. It must be based in law.

    Two other points:

    1. The grieving parents wanted Utu. They got law-based Justice. If they want Utu, there is an island off the coast of Somalia.

    2. The media reached yet another nadir by exploiting the parents grief. I can in only conclude that not one, a single f’ing MSM type read the judge’s full statement. Their exploitation was disgraceful.

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  52. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    HA HA HA

    Good one TV3 – they’ve put them all in the debate, and made Craig look extremely stupid! He was hoping to be just one of four!

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  53. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @Viking2

    “As for the Police. Well this is actually a Civil matter and usually when that is the case the police will not intervene. so their role remains to keep the peace. Fairly simple and straight forward I would have thought. ”

    You are saying the police cannot enforce a decision of the court?

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  54. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    wiseowl (777 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 9:15 am

    DG,
    Can you perhaps clarify. If the Supreme Court makes a decision and that is defied, to which court does one seek guidance.

    To give the finger to the highest court in New Zealand must be a first and shows what toohoy really think.

    The apology and handout were a waste of time and considering they didn’t sign the treaty shouldn’t have been eligible for a cent.

    ========================
    So not so wise owl you display a complete lack of knowledge of what the Crown did to the Tuhoe and continued for many years. Go to the Library and get out a copy of Encircled Lands and Mihaia by Judith Binney.
    Tuhoe are the only Maori tribe to have a fully documented history written and published.
    Read them and understand how they were treated by both Maori from the Hawkes Bay and Gisbourne area’s and by the Govt.

    That they didn’t sign the Treaty is irrelevant in the context of how they were terrorized and disposed of their tribal Lands.
    Many others have made claims, many of which have been based an false premise and hearsay. You seem happy to accept those claims despite them being poorly researched and an ” official” version incorporated into their settlements, just because they signed the Treaty.

    Educate yourself properly.

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  55. David Garrett (7,556 comments) says:

    Ugly: You are an idiot…you know nothing about the law, and from what I can see, not much about anything else…if one disregards your apparently wide knowledge of conspiracy theories..

    Judith: The executor is the person who in effect decides whether the instructions left in the Will are in fact carried out…for example, you might leave instructions that your body is to be cremated, while unbeknown to you, the executor has religious objections to cremation… If the executor is willing to disregard your stated wishes and bury you instead there is nothing anyone can do about it… which is one of the many reasons we should all choose our executors wisely…

    The Takamore case was complicated by the fact that while James left his partner as executor, the Will was silent on where he was to be buried…but as things have transpired, I don’t think that would have made any difference….the arrogant “whanau” would have done what they did regardless of what the Will might have said.

    What is happening here is actually a breach of the so called Treaty..the much ignored Article 3 of which makes Maori British subjects, and thus subject to the same laws as honkey residents of this fair land…but don’t expect the Waitangi Tribunal to investigate this any time soon…it could of course only do so if some Maori complained to it…the rest of us do not have “standing” to bring a claim or make a complaint to it…

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  56. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    One can’t really blame the individual officers for retreating at the cemetary.

    Ever since labour and the activist courts reactivated the previously delegislated treaty and added the undefined principles to all aspects of New Zealand officialdom (and National are on board too ) the country is, like those officers, in retreat.

    That’s why we need binding referenda to force government to do the will of the electorate.

    In the meantime we will continue to be serfs to a self serving elitist permanent political class.

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  57. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    Other_Andy (2,371 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 9:33 am

    @Viking2

    “As for the Police. Well this is actually a Civil matter and usually when that is the case the police will not intervene. so their role remains to keep the peace. Fairly simple and straight forward I would have thought. ”

    You are saying the police cannot enforce a decision of the court?
    =====================
    The police are not there to enforce civil matters.

    They can mediate etc etc but if they had enforced this yesterday then I believe the Police would have been breaking the Law.

    If you doubt me then try getting the police to enforced a Tenancy court ordered payment. It is just not that simple.
    The court ruling remains a civil matter at this time.

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  58. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    DG you may well have a different interpretation of this but please let us know how a civil matter becomes a police criminal matter.

    By service of civil process, typically service of notice. After the police provide a service they have a legitimate interest and typically become a party to the dispute by joinder. Technically it remains a civil process, but criminal penalties may result from the process.

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  59. David Garrett (7,556 comments) says:

    Viking: that is interesting background on the Takamore family..

    With respect, I don’t think you quite get the Police’s role in all this..Yes, it is a civil matter, and Yes, their role is to keep the peace…the peace was being threatened by the members of the family who threatened the said peace while Ms Clark and the undertakers were attempting to exercise their rights under the Order….so it is indeed “quite simple”, but not in the way you mean it…

    Quite simply, the police ought to have ensured that Ms Clark was able to have her agents – the guy driving the digger and the undertakers – carry out an order of the highest court in the land…that they backed off in the face of threats is, as I have said, nothing short of disgraceful, and in effect means the police won’t maintain the peace if those threatening it are Maori who claim to be exercising some rights of their own which are contrary to the terms of an Order…

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  60. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Ugly: You are an idiot…you know nothing about the law, and from what I can see, not much about anything else…if one disregards your apparently wide knowledge of conspiracy theories..

    You’re such a joke, Garret. If you were a competent attorney and had a real point to make then you should at least be able to present a reasonable argument rather than resorting an ad hominem, the argument of last resort.

    If I know nothing about the law, then why can’t you refute a single point from the following page?

    http://www.actsinjunction.info/corruption.html

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  61. macdee (43 comments) says:

    Re the Takamore’s ~ where’s Dame Susan when you need her

    Jamie Whyte 10 ~ Dame Susan 0

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  62. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    That’s why we need binding referenda to force government to do the will of the electorate.

    Such a process amounts to conspiracy unless the will of the electorate is to purse a lawful goal.

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  63. Griff (8,197 comments) says:

    how they were terrorized and disposed of their tribal Lands.
    The alliance of the Tuhoe with Kereopa, Te Kooti and the Hauhau and their resistance of the Crown to apprehend these “rebels” got the land confiscated after being warned for repeatedly allowing a terrorist groups to hide from the authority’s V2.
    http://onenzfoundation.co.nz/wordpress/articles/land-purchases-and-confiscations/tuhoe-confiscations-inevitable-and-justified/

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  64. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    DG, I think the court ruling rules in Ms Clarks favour Which is fine but the court ruling doesn’t enforce the removal of the James body.
    Someone above has suggested that this is the next step.

    And remember its Lawyers and politican/lawyers who make these rules.

    Until the court actually Orders enforcement of this then IMHO without co-operation of those objecting the status quo remains.
    We may not be comfortable with that but it remains the case.

    If we take a look at the last few years and all the litigation and attempted recovery of their funds by many people who lost their money in Finance Companies , building companies etc.,the same deal is apparent. The police have their hands tied and even the courts have their hands tied.

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  65. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    Andrew Geddis

    Why do you think that somehow cultural affiliation/identity is not as important or significant as measuring someone’s “race” through the blood in their veins? There may well be “zilions” (well – thousands?) of people on the general roll who could legally identify as “Maori” for the purposes of enrolment. But if they don’t, so what? Why do you seem to think that the existence of choice as to how you culturally identify means it somehow is not relevant?

    Because there are real costs involved? A departure from one man one vote is being proposed? A population of aggrieved , robbed, ripped of by cultural choice.

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  66. David Garrett (7,556 comments) says:

    Viking: Again, you don’t seem to get it…the police have no ability to enforce a Tenancy Tribunal order for payment…and since debtors’ prisons no longer exist, no other arm of the state has any real ability to do so either in the face of a refusal to pay…unless the Order is for a sum which is sufficient upon which to base a bankruptcy application… ($2000 when I last looked)

    But this situation at the cemetery is quite different..the police have every ability – and in fact an obligation – to ensure the peace is kept while someone else exercises their rights under an order… or simply goes about their lawful business..

    What happened here was a bunch of maori threatened disorder if the terms of the Order were carried out, and instead of arresting the lot of them – or any one of them who had threatened either the peace or Ms Clark or her agents – they instead just backed off..

    THAT should be the front page of the Herald, not some scumbag gang member who happened to be involved with the late Paul Holmes’ daughter…

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  67. mikenmild (11,759 comments) says:

    I must admit, it seems a strange thing to be arguing about: where to bury a dead body. It seems to me to be a genuine clash of cultures. Why doesn’t this happen more often? Do other families compromise more readily? Are some whanau and iwi less insistent on their tikanga?

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  68. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    Griff (6,888 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 9:56 am

    how they were terrorized and disposed of their tribal Lands.
    The alliance of the Tuhoe with Kereopa, Te Kooti and the Hauhau and their resistance of the Crown to apprehend these “rebels” got the land confiscated after being warned for repeatedly allowing a terrorist groups to hide from the authority’s V2.
    http://onenzfoundation.co.nz/wordpress/articles/land-purchases-and-confiscations/tuhoe-confiscations-inevitable-and-justified/
    =========================================

    Well that’s one side of the argument.
    where is the counter balance to that?
    Once again much of that was about Religion.

    If Ngai Tahu can have South Island land back, Te Wharetoa, and many others the same, why should Tuhoe be treated differently?

    Next you will be berating us all with telling us That Israel should be abandoned to the Arabs.

    Same argument, different place, different context?

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  69. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    David Round

    Why is it, I cannot but wonder, that gangs and Maoris just seem to go together? I cannot believe that it is all injustice and oppression, I’m sorry. Plenty of other people are also poor and oppressed. Maori are not the only victims. I am forced to conclude that it is some aspect of the Maori cultural inheritance, some lingering atavistic tribal residue, which makes the criminal or marginal gang such a natural fit for so many Maori. You may reply that the arrangement is not much different from, say, that of the house-carles who followed their Anglo-Saxon lord, ate their bread at his table and supported him with their spears in his feuds; but our civilisation has developed since those magnificent but savage days. Maori culture, it seems, has not. It is still ~ as we are regularly officially reminded ~ a ‘warrior culture’. A warrior ~ as opposed to a soldier ~ is of his nature a gang-member.

    And a culture is not a civilisation.

    http://www.nzcpr.com/voltaire-thou-shouldst-be-living-at-this-hour/

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  70. mikenmild (11,759 comments) says:

    Well, that’s a racist load of twaddle, hj…

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  71. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    mikenmild (10,893 comments) says

    you would say it is a result of a knock on effect caused by European colonisation and there would be an element of truth in that since one way or the other their circumstances would be different.

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  72. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    Dg, while I agree with you about the hrag, I’d just say that discretion is often the better part of valour.

    Given the roles of the Police and other govt. agencies over the last 150 years in the Tuhoe country and the manner in which there is hopefully some better relationships being forged that are based on mutual respect rather then complete mistrust of the authorities then IMHO the police did the right thing.
    The issue isn’t going away and there will no doubt be sequels. As a lawyer you I’m sure have seen these sorts things go on and on. Its the Law. the Law is not based on Human emotions.

    You can in effect get th Police to act on Tenancy Issue but its a drawn out process that involves investigation and court meeting and orders. If all that process is ignored then the Court can order the person arrested and bought before the court.
    Meantime the Police can do nothing and even after a court Hearing can still do nothing.

    but then you know that eh!

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  73. crazy88 (3 comments) says:

    Lochinvar has many Agronomic problems, e.g. cold and very short growing season, huge fertility problems with little topsoil, huge Phosphorus lock up potential, and very low pH, and the list would go on. The only economic benefit in the past may have been a nice tax write off for Stephensons, i.e. Lochinvar has cost the NZ taxpayer plenty. (Muldoon National Socialism gave 3% development loans). I would be surprised in the few profitable years that RoI got to 4% and averages around 1%.

    My point is that Lochinvar should have been planted in Pine trees. Too late now. The only enterprise that could achieve a higher rate of return, would only be a very large Dairy Agribusiness willing to invest for a 50 year cycle.

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  74. Komata (1,202 comments) says:

    MM

    Re: ‘Well, that’s a racist load of twaddle, hj…’

    Can you explain please?

    Thanks.

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  75. David Garrett (7,556 comments) says:

    Mikey: I have never before thought of you as some cringing wannabe Maori…

    Let’s say my “tikanga” requires that I be buried here at Rancho Garrett, under the sacred willow tree in which I built Charlie’s tree-house…my “tikanga” will simply be ignored, because the law of the land says you must be buried in a cemetery unless you are more than X k’s from a cemetery… and there is a cemetery a few k’s from here..

    As I said earlier, Article 3 of the Treaty makes the Maori British subjects, and thus subject to the same rule(s) of law as the rest of us……A party to an international treaty (which “the treaty” is not, but that’s another argument) cannot decide they will take advantage of one part of it, but not be subject to the bits they don’t like so much…

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  76. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    Judith…
    Sorry, you are wrong.

    I think what Craig did was excellent. He held the media to account. TV3 were told (paraphrased): include him or cancel.

    He knew six other parties would be on the programme. He wanted to be the 7th. And his stat argument before the Court (whatever one thinks of Craig, and I think he is a nutter) was excellent, and accepted.

    Let the idiots fight. I can see only three sensible participants – Dunne, Flavell and Whyte,. Peters is a bullshitter. Harawira a racist nutter never held to account, and Craig and Tureri also nutters.

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  77. mikenmild (11,759 comments) says:

    Just because I can recognise the place opf tikanag doesn’t mean Iam ‘cringing’. Your perspective is that the wishes of the deceased must be paramount. I’m just pointing out that that is not the only possible perspective.

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  78. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    Don’t envy the role of either the Courts or the police in the Takamore case. Particularly because there is a feeling abroad that the family or some of the family in Opotiki are being difficult when in fact they want their relation to rest in the lands where he was born, in the bosom of the family. Just the same as his wife wants him to be in Christchurch where they met, married and raised a family. Neither side is wishing ‘ill will’ on the other, in fact there are arguably not two sides at all but rather a failure to reach an agreement.

    Some here have raised history as reasons why the police should enforce a civil order. Opotiki has a history of it’s own, part of which touches upon 100s of servicemen buried overseas, in some cases brothers – much earlier land confiscations and general blame for the hanging of the missionary there who was warned to stay away as he was believed to be spying, the further hangings which resulted from that which are claimed to have been unjust. I’m not saying that all these things are related, but there is little to say they are not – how that falls on the police or The Courts to settle is asking for a simple solution to difficult questions.

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  79. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    Winkleman J did a good job flipper.

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  80. FeralScrote (226 comments) says:

    Poor ol` Jamie Whyte on the Nation this morn,he is finding out the hard way that reason and logic does not work on the socialists anymore than it works on the religious.
    Just a hint Jamie ,wealth is a dirty word to the lefties,just like progress and personal responsibility.

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  81. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    What happened here was a bunch of maori threatened disorder if the terms of the Order were carried out, and instead of arresting the lot of them – or any one of them who had threatened either the peace or Ms Clark or her agents – they instead just backed off..

    In some ways yes I’m with you on this one David and in other ways my jury is still out. In terms of being with you here, one doubts the same thing would have happened had a group of people from any race other than Maori had down the precise same thing. It’s one thing to be accommodating to the tangata whenua but this incident is pushing up against the principle of maintaining fair treatment for all.

    The fact is however Maori do have a different way of resolving issues like this and those ways involve discussion and debate after which everyone gets up and things happen the way they would have anyway. It’s not our way but it is their way. Given the nature of this particular issue which does fall within that category I think it was a fair call by the police to give that process a go. On the clip I noted one of the police uniforms contained a distinguished looking Maori and I imagine he probably had a hand in that decision. If as time goes by and nothing happens then I’ll start getting worried but for the moment, I’m happy to wait and see what happens… It’s just a shame the police have to be the meat in the sandwich in this, it’s not an easy job they have but overall IMO they do it extremely well and this is one of those times I think we should be grateful for their skill and discretion.

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  82. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    From Griff’s link:

    Tuhoe did not sign the Treaty largely because they were too isolated for it to be taken to them, read, discussed and given the opportunity to sign. Unlike Ngapuhi and other northern tribes, Tuhoe had very little contact with the Europeans, the missionaries or the British Crown and remained this way for many years after the Treaty was signed, when New Zealand was ceded to Britain, which was recognized and accepted by all the major nations of the world.

    If Tuhoe land was isolated from the Crown then it was not part of Crown territory and could not be ceded to Britian.

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  83. crazy88 (3 comments) says:

    Cold out. 6 days of no WhaleOil. Not one more click ever.

    Fell over backwards last night. Dear friends, but card carrying multi-generational Socialists, (voted Robertson in Labour Leaders vote) are voting Green, “How sensible and sound is Russell Norman”

    My scientific extrapolation from these 2 votes is Greens hitting 18, 19% and Labour crashing to 22, 23%.

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  84. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    As a follow-up to the TV3 thing, does anyone know what this programme draws. By draws, I mean numbers.

    Mostly political nutters will be watching, and sending in texts and emails from pre-arranged scripts. ( I had never before been bothered to watch the programme, and the screaming escapee from a Biafran refugee camp, Owen.

    Once it was letters to the editor. That still occurs, but the TV3 programme was bullshit and deserves to be treated as such.

    En passant, if they are going to persist, would it not be good if TV3 and TVNZ dumped Edwards??? This ex Alliance staffer is hardly a neutral observer, notwithstanding his present grandiose taxpayer funded sinecure at OU.

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  85. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ (4,936 comments) says:

    August 9th, 2014 at 10:23 am

    Winkleman J did a good job
    ****

    Yep….my heart says, NO

    But my head says, Yes

    Have a good one …

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  86. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ flipper (3,642 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 10:21 am

    I may well be wrong flipper, it has happened once or twice before :-) However, I think Craig didn’t get what he wanted. The original debate was to be with just three parties. Those that have been in parliament in the last three years. Craig’s actions meant all the minor parties were invited – reducing the amount of time he got to a bare minimum. He came across as weak compared to Winston – and that weakness highlighted Winston’s strengths – which considering they are competing for the same conservative vote, will actually go against Craig.

    Craig used his money to take the matter to Court, and in doing so came across as a rich petulant child trying to get his spot in the limelight, which is his right, – sure he got his spot, but sadly it appears he all he’s done is muddy it further. His performance was shocking and only demonstrated he does not even have the polish that Hone has when it comes to public appearance ( and believe me, that is hard to admit, but Hone looked more confident and professional than Craig – god help us!)

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  87. flash2846 (289 comments) says:

    Just watched the minor party leaders debate. Four Maori leaders and three New Zealanders, Apartheid for sure. They all got to open without interruption until it came to Colin Craig; he was interrupted by the presenter within the first sentence.
    I smell danger. Those creeps from Greens, Mana, Maori and even NZF will say and do anything to gain power.

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  88. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    Where is the outrage?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2719991/Horrific-new-photographs-ISIS-atrocities-prompted-Obama-act.html

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  89. Keeping Stock (10,436 comments) says:

    @ Flash – since when have Maori not been New Zealanders? That kind of racism sickens me.

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  90. wf (466 comments) says:

    - the Takamores could erect a tablet on the family grave in Christchurch, acknowledging his death and loss to the family, while also admitting his physical interment elsewhere.

    In our family we scatter ashes . . . .

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  91. wiseowl (934 comments) says:

    Well Judith you must have been mistaken or have a predetermined position.

    Craig came across really well and managed to deal with the attacks from Owen ‘well you’re a property speculator’ in a calm and clear way.

    Dunne was terrible and obviously most of his Untied supporters are from Fish and Game and the ex Outdoors party as he tried to relate everything to them.

    Whyte was lost and as soon as I hear this cry of xenophobia I know they don’t get it.

    Craig and Winnie were the winners.

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  92. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ wf (382 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 11:13 am

    I guess it depends on a persons cultural/religious beliefs. If they believe that the earthly body is only a vessel and that the spirit ascends to some higher place, then they are less likely to put as much value on the remains, and value some sort of memorial, as you have suggested.

    However, if their beliefs are based on the body also containing the spirit and the spirit not being free unless it is returned to the place of its ancestors, then it gets more complicated.

    Personally, I believe once you are dead, you rot and should become worm food, at least returning to the soil something of what you took from it when alive. Therefore my beliefs are about my family constructing whatever type of memorial they need to enable them to remember me. I like the idea of a lasting memorial. There is a saying along these lines, we die three deaths, first when our body ceases to function, second when we are interred in the ground (or I guess cremated) and thirdly, and finally when our names are spoken for the last time. A lasting memorial allows future generations to say your name!

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  93. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock – if you hadn’t noticed, Maori are separate now. They don’t consider themselves ‘kiwis'; they consider themselves Tangata Whenua and Special. You may have heard the two words ‘our people’ being used frequently over the last couple of decades. I don’t believe Flash was being racist. Hate to be glib but ‘they started it’ aided and abetted by one G. Palmer.

    Flipper – I can tell you programmes such as The Nation, Q & A, ‘Media Take’ (Russell Browns previously rather good offering which has been reduced to a segment in a show naturally obsessed with Maori issues because the over endowed Maori TV was the only channel that would pick it up), Sean Plunket’s new show – hardly rate on the ratings system. The majority of viewers want cooking competition shows, the Block and rugby. The slot all these shows invariably inhabit tells you everything you need to know, they are valueless spots.

    New Zealanders are not interested in politics as it is ‘boring’. This is why the country barely resembles the one I grew up in.

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  94. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ wiseowl (778 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 11:14 am

    That wasn’t what the political commentators thought, and none of the people here watching it had that impression. Craig looked stressed, and acted it. He spoke strongly only once during the entire debate and let others interrupt him. A polished politician does not allow that to happen. They speak strongly enough to quieten any opposing voice. Craig did not do that – all his appearance today showed is that he is inexperienced and not ready to play a major role in NZ politics.

    The winners were Winston for sure – from a Maori perspective, I think probably Hone’s polished performance may have stood above Flavell’s. Dunne was strong, but sadly his words seemed insincere, given his past performance. Whyte was strong, but arrogant – he was unable to twist his policy to soft it on certain questions – that ability is integral to being a good politician, it is something Key has a strong ability in – Whyte needs to learn that. I was pleased to see the only woman hold her own in the debate, although don’t think she made any standout points.

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  95. wf (466 comments) says:

    @ Keeping Stock: Maori give their Maori status priority, thus putting their New Zealand-ness in second place. This is supported by endless claims by Maori which non-Maori New Zealanders endorse in their efforts to be seen as being ‘fair’.

    Jamie Whyte has a point. Level the playing field. Making all citizens equal under the law would be a good start.

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  96. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ duggledog (1,381 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 11:21 am

    Any society that believes everyone is the same, is fooling itself and doomed to failure. We are all different, have different beliefs and different cultural values. A good society is one that appreciates difference, and allows each group in society to reach their maximum potential.

    We will never be the same – and as long as we keep trying to be, we will keep going in circles.

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  97. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    However, we can at least say that if the fight had not taken place, Stephen might be alive today.

    @ georgebolwing

    The above statement is made by this so called learned judge. I would be interested in the medical report. I bet it would not support the spin she is putting out.

    I would say that the probability that Stephen would not be alive today due to his undiagnosed heart defect if he had not been the victim of a vicious, cowardly unprovoked attack would be quite low.

    Unless the report supports her view rather than mine the judge is being disingenuous at best.

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  98. Duxton (657 comments) says:

    When are the cops going to sort these pieces of shit out?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11306278

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  99. Fletch (6,496 comments) says:

    Here is the winner of the NZ Contemporary Arts awards – a shelf with a broken fluorescent bulb on it.
    No, I’m not kidding.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/arts/10367123/NZ-contemporary-art-award-winner-A-shelf

    I’m sorry, but this is just bullshit. I knew the art world is snooty and ridiculous, and this is just proof.

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  100. Ross12 (1,456 comments) says:

    georgebolwing and flipper

    I am not a lawyer –it seems both of you are. Re the Dudley case : I cannot understand how if a defendant admits guilt to a charge that he can get off without conviction. It was a clear case of assault and there has to be some responsibility , somehow. The initial punch may be put down to school yard brawling but the continued kicking when he was down goes beyond that.
    I don’t think he should have been put in prison or anything like that, but he should have received some sort of punishment.

    In recent weeks we had a person convicted because he incorrectly filed a piece of paper which had absolutely no effect on anyone or alter any situation. Here we have admission of assault and nothing happens. To this layman something doesn’t add up.

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  101. Slipster (183 comments) says:

    lolitasbrother, 8:36: “we would like […]”

    Who’s “we” and why should anyone ese care what you would like?

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  102. holysheet (427 comments) says:

    The police commissioner needs to get to that cemetary and apologise for his officers’ actions.

    Don’t worry silent T will do that for him next week.

    What’s to stop the children of Takamore taking a complaint to the waitangi tribunal and see what the result will be. It would be interesting to see the tribunal run a mile and try to not have to make a decision against one of their own kind. After all, the tribunal is all about punishing us white honkys, and gaining as much money . There is no money for sambo in this so it will not get a hearing.

    [DPF: 20 demerits]

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  103. G152 (385 comments) says:

    - the Takamores could erect a tablet on the family grave in Christchurch, acknowledging his death and loss to the family, while also admitting his physical interment elsewhere.
    ========
    No. When you die your body is ‘owned’ by your next of kin who then has to arrange for internment or the cremation of the body.
    The ‘relatives’ stole the body from its rightful owner…

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  104. Fletch (6,496 comments) says:

    The Takamores should take his body by force, cremate it, then scatter the ashes where they want them to be. Let’s see the other Maori try and vacuum them all up again.

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  105. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Fletch says at 11:47 am

    Another entry this year was a pile of dog poo and previous, winning entries for the Trust Waikato National Contemporary Art Award were a pile of household rubbish and a chunk of used plasterboard.

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  106. mikenmild (11,759 comments) says:

    ‘There is no money for sambo’
    And some of you nutcases gave that upticks. For shame.

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  107. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    Can anyone tell me if the 15 grand this ‘Artist’ won for balancing the lightbulb on the shelf is from my tax dollar??

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/arts/10367123/NZ-contemporary-art-award-winner-A-shelf

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  108. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    That wasn’t what the political commentators thought, and none of the people here watching it had that impression.

    Actually Craig did come across as calm and reasonable. Who cares what the political commentators thought? Since when have they ever been correct about anything? And since when don’t they have an axe to grind which you could see clearly as well as in the moderator who was clearly upset at Craig forcing his way in which wasn’t his fault since they should have invited him anyway. But then Lisa’s never been a rocket scientist and she displayed that trait again this morning.

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  109. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    “There is no money for sambo’
    And some of you nutcases gave that upticks. For shame.”

    White mutha fuckers.

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  110. georgebolwing (1,011 comments) says:

    From Justice Winkelmann’s judgement:

    “[8] You have pleaded guilty to assault with intent to injure. You had earlier faced a count of manslaughter. However, when Stephen’s underlying heart condition came to light the Crown came to the conclusion that it could not safely be determined as a matter of fact that your actions caused Stephen’s death. As a result, the Crown amended the charge brought against you to assault with intent to injure.

    [9] For this reason, the fact that Stephen died after the fight is not to be weighed by me in determining the sentence I impose. Both your counsel and the Crown are agreed that this is the approach that I must take.”

    The judge can only try the case in front of her, which was an early guilty plea by a juvenile of previously good character to a case of assault with intent to injure. From what the judge says, there was no kicking after Stephen hit the ground. So the violence involved was not great. The prosecution asked for a sentence of 80–100 hours’ community work, hardly a stiff tariff.

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  111. Ross12 (1,456 comments) says:

    georgebolwing

    Thanks –I have no problems with points 8 & 9 from the Judge. But “So the violence involved was not great’ is still assault which he admitted to. What the prosecution asked for is hardly ” a stiff tariff’ as you say but it would be better than the nothing , which has occurred.

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  112. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    @georgebolwing

    I would appreciate a response to my comment @11:38

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  113. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    From DG

    “Ugly: You are an idiot…you know nothing about the law, and from what I can see, not much about anything else…if one disregards your apparently wide knowledge of conspiracy theories.”

    YUP! :)

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  114. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Chuck Bird (4,704 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 12:59 pm

    The problem is Chuck, that the person that hit him, no matter how cowardly and weak, had no way of knowing that the guy had a heart defect. The law has to look at it under those conditions. If he had known that hitting him would kill him, would he have done it?

    Did he hit the guy wanting to kill him, or did he just want to hit him and cause him a bit of pain.

    He could probably have hit every other male at that school, and none of them would have been seriously hurt, let alone die. That is what the Court would base their judgement on. I don’t think the sentence was right either, but I can see why the Court could not convict him of murder or manslaughter, or even GBH. The fact is, if he didn’t have that heart complaint, he wouldn’t have been seriously hurt or died by the attack. Therefore it has been judged according to the type of attack it was – and not by the result of it.

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  115. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    Labours New policy analyzed.

    Oh, and forgive me for my cynicism, but free dental care provides a rather significant incentive to get pregnant. Maybe not to stay pregnant though.

    Pregnant women would get free dental care, doctors’ visits and prescriptions under a Labour Government in a plan to be unveiled at the party’s campaign launch.The Weekend Herald understands a primary healthcare package for pregnant women costing just over $10 million will be one of two policy announcements on the day…
    The Weekend Herald understands free dental healthcare for mothers would cost about $5 million a year, free GP visits about $4 million and free prescriptions about $1 million.

    http://lindsaymitchell.blogspot.co.nz/
    ===================================
    So if the woman has bad teeth, get pregnant and get them fixed for free. do it quickly the abort the baby.
    Great policy Labour.
    You just fucking idiots.

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  116. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    Judith, there is no need to state the obvious. If you want to comment on my comment read it carefully.

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  117. Paulus (2,668 comments) says:

    I hear that Colin James – yes he is still alive – makes it quite clear today that National could well lose the election if National’s percentage drops by just 4%.
    I know he has always been a lefty since Muldoon days but he is quite right.

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  118. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    The problem is Chuck, that the person that hit him, no matter how cowardly and weak, had no way of knowing that the guy had a heart defect. The law has to look at it under those conditions

    No, that’s taking the event out of context. In context someone with a heart defect isn’t going to go around looking for trouble, i,e. an unprovoked attack is more repugnant than a fight where both boys had too much testosterone and not enough common sense.

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  119. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “how utterly disgraceful that the Police left the scene “because there was likely to be trouble’…dealing with “trouble” is what they are supposed to do FFS!”

    The cops are cowards.

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  120. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    UT, have you read the judge’s reasoning?

    ( http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/cases/r-v-m/at_download/fileDecision)

    The boy who was killed did not know he had a heart defect.

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  121. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    An early Polynesian settlement dating back to the early first Century unearthed by archaeologists just out of Whitianga is being called a nationally significant find.

    Archaeologist Andrew Hoffman, who led four others, spent eight weeks excavating a site near Taputapuatea stream in partnership with Heritage New Zealand, the nearby Pacific Estate subdivision and Ngati Hei.

    – See more at: http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/79420-life-1300s-unearthed.html#sthash.ABVzsmhr.dpuf

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  122. muggins (3,811 comments) says:

    Pity Takamore hadn’t said he wanted to be cremated.

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  123. stephieboy (3,405 comments) says:

    Fletch (6,059 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 11:47 am

    I understand you have a passion for chocolate box picture landscapes. ?

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  124. georgebolwing (1,011 comments) says:

    Chuck, re your 11.38 comment. Sorry for the delay, was out doing other things.

    All I can go by is the published judgment. From that, I do not agree with your statement that this was “a vicious, cowardly unprovoked attack”.

    The judge records the following facts:

    “[3] On the day of the assault, the rugby team had come together for a pre-season practice. Before training your brother and Stephen had an argument and almost came to blows, but they were stopped by other teammates.

    [4] After practice, Stephen was leaving the ground when someone from the team called him back. Your brother met Stephen at the centre of the field. There seems to have been peer pressure for a fight, with people calling out for a fight and using their cellphones to record events.

    [5] You arrived at the playing fields to pick your brother up at that moment. You saw the brewing fight. You ran to the centre of the field and involved yourself in events.

    [6] You approached Stephen from the side and struck him once on the neck with a swinging right arm. Stephen did not see this blow coming and hunched over defensively. He did not throw a punch. You and your brother then delivered several punches to Stephen’s torso. Stephen collapsed and at that point you and your brother left the scene. Attempts were made to revive Stephen but he later died in hospital. Unbeknownst to you or to anyone at the time, Stephen had an undiagnosed heart condition which made him vulnerable to problems with his heart’s rhythm in situations of traumatic stress. Because of that condition, it is impossible for anyone to say what actually caused Stephen’s death. However, we can at least say that if the fight had not taken place, Stephen might be alive today. ”

    Apart from the undiagnosed heart condition, this sounds to me like many other schoolyard fights where an older brother comes to the aid of a younger. This was the case the judge had to try. If para [6] had read “You approached Stephen from the side and struck him once on the neck with a swinging right arm. Stephen did not see this blow coming and hunched over defensively. He did not throw a punch. You and your brother then delivered several punches to Stephen’s torso. Stephen dropped to the ground and at that point you and your brother left the scene, after which Stephen got up and went home with bruising to his neck”, then I think the discharge without conviction of a remorseful seventeen year old after an early guilty plea would have gone unremarked.

    As hard as it is for Stephen’s parents, legally, there was no connection between the assault and Stephen’s death.

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  125. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Funny if True.

    <b.Man Spites Obnoxious Child By Buying Every Pie At Burger King

    http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/man-spites-obnoxious-child-buying-every-pie-burger-king#sthash.KzH6TvaQ.dpuf

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  126. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    Shock, Horror- ‘Our Millie’ is slamming Police and Emergency services for their efforts on the night her gangmember boyfriend got killed in a Street fight.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10367005/Elder-Holmes-account-of-Morris-death-No-one-helped

    Honestly- The media’s gushing and fawning over this little crackhead gang-moll must stop now.

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  127. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Today, since the ceasefire, terrorists have fired 61 rockets at Israel.
    That is because Hamas wants peace.
    43 rockets have hit Israel and the Iron Dome has intercepted 5 of them.

    Let’s ask Paul Thomas at the New Zealand Herald what the ‘proportionate response’ is.

    This year Hamas has fired 3,055 rockets and mortars, killing 6 people and injuring 41.
    What should the IDF do Paul?

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  128. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    “As hard as it is for Stephen’s parents, legally, there was no connection between the assault and Stephen’s death.”

    Thanks for your response. However, I must add that as hard as it is for lawyers to understand the judge’s decision was morally wrong. Her reasoning also appeared to be faulty. This is not just my view but I would say over 90% of the public see it as wrong.

    If you and the judge are correct then the law should be changed.

    The judge referred to no evidence to say that Stephen would not be alive today if he victim of a vicious, cowardly unprovoked attack. Which of those adjectives to you disagree with?

    We have to look at what is the purpose of a court. If it to provide an nice income with no responsibility for judges or to produce just results. If it is the latter we have to have a mechanism to hold judges to account and remove the worse. We also have to have tighter rules as to a judges duties. Judges honesty and integrity should be beyond question. At the moment they do not have recuse themselves if there is a perceived conflict of interest. They do not even have to declare it.

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  129. MT_Tinman (3,257 comments) says:

    gt;Longknives (4,524 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 3:18 pm
    Shock, Horror- ‘Our Millie’ is slamming Police and Emergency services for their efforts on the night her gangmember boyfriend got killed in a Street fight.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10367005/Elder-Holmes-account-of-Morris-death-No-one-helped

    Honestly- The media’s gushing and fawning over this little crackhead gang-moll must stop now.

    i realise whinging poms are not renown for their intelligence but surely even you should realise that if you don’t like reading slime crap for christs sake don’t read it .

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  130. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    Whinging Pom?

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  131. Ross12 (1,456 comments) says:

    georgebolwing

    I think most will accept the death was a very unfortunate outcome BUT there was still an unacceptable assault , which was admitted to by the defendant. That is what needed to be addressed.

    I just hope there is an appeal.

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  132. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    UT, have you read the judge’s reasoning?

    At the time that I commented I hadn’t. Thanks for the link.

    The boy who was killed did not know he had a heart defect.

    The attack by the elder brother was the act of a bully, attacking a younger boy in a 2:1 fight.
    This was the issue that I was thinking of previously, the repugnance of a predatory attack.

    Intent is only one factory that comes into play when finding a remedy. Another factor is equity, which has clearly not been preserved here.

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  133. Fletch (6,496 comments) says:

    ISIS atrocities – do not look if you have a weak stomach.

    http://gulagbound.com/46049/isis-sweeps-the-middle-east-in-a-method-reminiscent-of-genghis-khan/

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  134. wreck1080 (3,969 comments) says:

    NZ police are cowards.

    “Area commander for Eastern Bay of Plenty, Inspector Kevin Taylor, said police abandoned the planned disinterment for safety reasons.”

    FFS… if the police will not uphold the law then who will?

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  135. starboard (2,551 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10366906/Man-charged-over-baby-girls-death

    bets are on..which whanau member , uncle , boyfriend , bloke she met in a bar 2 weeks ago..??

    Step right up.

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  136. wreck1080 (3,969 comments) says:

    And while we are at it…. if any person who dies of an assault has some kind of genetic weakness which contributes to their death then the attacker should be left off without consequences.

    Really, what is the difference between having a weak heart or a thin skull. You both die because of your non-gladiator body.

    Even if the attacker did a king hit on the victim.

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  137. Maggy Wassilieff (450 comments) says:

    @ Viking 2 2:26pm
    “An early Polynesian settlement dating back to the early first Century unearthed by archaeologists just out of Whitianga is being called a nationally significant find.”

    I suggest someone should learn the difference between first Century and first Millenium.

    1350 -1450 AD is not first century.

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  138. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    Mum’s new boyfriend Starboard? Possibly the presence of the kid offended his mighty and brave ‘Warrior Gene’??

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  139. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    “1350 -1450 AD is not first century.”

    Get with the programme Maggy- It is whatever our ‘Tangata Whenua’ says it is! As the ‘Chosen people’ they are beyond reproach…

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  140. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    FFS… if the police will not uphold the law then who will?

    At the moment they are, they’ve been trespassed and they have a oath to keen the Queen’s peace.

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  141. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Chuck Bird (4,707 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    I’m sorry – I clearly didn’t realise how important you are.

    I thought providing we keep to the rules we can comment in any manner we see fit. Perhaps when you post in future you could advertise your terms and conditions so that those who wish to reply can recognise your desire to be regarded as more important than everyone else.

    Humble apologises oh great one! May the sun continue to shine out of your arse.

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  142. cricko (380 comments) says:

    Here is one point that I can concurr with UglyTruth, @ 4.16, even though I think he used the wrong adjective, ‘equity’

    ‘Justice’ has not been served in this matter. Most would agree with that.

    Even if you feel that Judge Winkelmans hands were tied by constraints of the law and she had no option to
    bring down the decision that she did……..

    She could have made a comment in her sentenceing to the effect that her hands were tied, she did not.

    ps. Winkelman did looked truly shocked by the fathers outburst as she read her decision.

    pps Any normal person would think that if a person ran accross a field to enter into a fracas in progress and
    king hit a person from behind and that person died, then that cowardly shithead should not be exonerated because the poor
    sod that he king hit had a pre existing condition.

    That probably showes how out of touch with reality some of our ‘legal eagles’ are if nothing else.

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  143. starboard (2,551 comments) says:

    Getting pretty standard practice nowdays..and 99.5% of the time its maori. Why? They hold huis at the drop of a hat..why dont they have one into their disgusting murderous ways? There aint a week that goes by without reading about maori killing their own. Wheres that low life racist turia…sharples , scumbag harawira , what have they got to say ? What are they doing about addressing the issue with their precious never can do no wrong people.

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  144. starboard (2,551 comments) says:

    ..and this sort of crap needs to be knocked on the head..parasites.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10365654/Taxpayers-pay-for-MPs-counselling

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  145. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ starboard (2,485 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 4:46 pm

    Can you please provide evidence of your 99.5% claim.

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  146. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    There seems to be some confusion over what actually happened in the Stephen Dudley case.

    Stephen Dudley was in the process of beating the shit out of a slightly younger school boy. At some point during that fight, the older brother of that school boy stepped in and threw the punches that killed Stephen Dudley.

    The fight was only ‘unprovoked’ if you are willing to disregard the fact that the older brother took exception to the violence being meted out on his younger brother.

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  147. starboard (2,551 comments) says:

    Its all in front of you..just open your eyes and read the paper , read the court sections , read Stuff..its all there Judith and you cant deny it. Most offenders are natives.

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  148. Maggy Wassilieff (450 comments) says:

    @ Longknives 4:35pm

    Its the Tauranga journalist that doesn’t know that first century AD covers the years 0-99AD.

    I’m sure the archaeologists are happy to accept that they are studying a 2nd Millenium AD site.

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  149. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ starboard (2,487 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 4:58 pm

    Lying and exaggerating isn’t going to help anyone with these sad statistics. The FACT is that about 10 children die in New Zealand each year on average, killed by family or caregivers. Approximately 50% of them are Maori.

    Considering the numbers of Maori in New Zealand that statistic is disproportionate, and shocking and demonstrates a big problem for Maori – but saying it is 99.5% is a blatant lie.

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  150. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    @Maggy Wassilieff

    The term “first century” is referring to the first century of settled occupation by Maori.

    Archaeologists don’t usually work with B.C./A.D. as their dating system. They use date references which are relative to the culture or society that are studying.

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  151. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    There was a study a couple of years ago (not given much publicity by a terrified NZ media) that concluded that Maori as an Ethnic group had the worse rates of infanticide in the World.
    The likes of Judith will keep defending and making excuses to the last though…

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  152. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    And while we are at it…. if any person who dies of an assault has some kind of genetic weakness which contributes to their death then the attacker should be left off without consequences.

    Nope. Crime has consequences, and a full remedy for a crime implies a remedy for the consequences as well.

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  153. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    “……Stephen Dudley was in the process of beating the shit out of a slightly younger school boy. At some point during that fight, the older brother of that school boy stepped in and threw the punches that killed Stephen Dudley…..”

    A relation of mine was once jailed for stepping in to help his OLDER brother who was out numbered and on the ground getting a beating. While he was helping, someone grapped the younger brother from behind, so he turned and belted him – it was a cop – who went out cold, but no serious injuries. My cousin had to do prison time for about a month and then he got home detention. The younger cousin wasn’t a trouble maker or a crimminal, just a bloody hard worker. So much for fair trials.

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  154. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Longknives (4,528 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 5:15 pm

    Actually, I went and looked up the official sources. Yes, Maori have the worst rate and so on, but its still NOT 99.5%.

    If you must report a figure, at least make it realistic. You don’t do anyone any favours by exaggerating a very sad statistic. That is what I took exception to. Maybe reality isn’t a concept you are familiar with or agree with … but some do like it.

    There are many documents on line that provide the statistics, some are a bit complicated, but this one is easy to read…
    http://www.areyouok.org.nz/files/Updated_Stats_Final.pdf

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  155. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    @Harriet

    Would you agree that it’s right and proper for a brother to step into a fight to defend a family member?

    I think that most people would. Which is why I’m surprised that people think Stephen Dudley’s death was anything other than an unfortunate and tragic accident.

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  156. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Wow, Paul Thomas, take a bow. I’d previously regarded you as a bit of a dill, to tell the truth. But after reading this gem of yours, you have gone way up in my estimation, mate!!

    Paul Thomas: Plucky little Israel turns itself into the ruthless and pitiless avenger state

    At the end of the 1987 movie The Untouchables, Eliot Ness (Kevin Costner) reflects on his transformation over the course of his relentless pursuit of gangster kingpin Al Capone: “I have forsworn myself. I have broken every law I have sworn to uphold. I have become what I beheld, and I am content that I have done right.”

    Many would say Israel has undergone a similar transformation – from an idealistic nation, resourceful and heroic in its self-defence, to an implacable avenger justifying its ruthlessness by saying its adversaries are even worse.

    It’s a far cry from plucky little Israel, born in the aftermath of the greatest crime in history, encircled and out-numbered by enemies who seemed reprehensibly indifferent to Jewish suffering.

    The West was solidly supportive, partly out of guilt, mostly out of admiration. And with each extraordinary feat of arms, the admiration swelled.

    In 1967, Israel trounced the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria in six days. In 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked without warning on the holiest day in Judaism, yet despite early setbacks it was only the Soviet Union’s intervention that saved the Egyptian army from annihilation.

    Long before 9/11, Israelis had to learn to live with terrorism. Their ability to endure and respond selectively and precisely was an example America would have done well to follow.

    But then the David and Goliath narrative began to pall.

    The 1982 invasion of Lebanon ended in a blaze of shame with Ariel Sharon, hero of the Yom Kippur War, having to resign as Defence Minister after his troops facilitated a massacre of Palestinian refugees by Lebanese militias.

    This “disgrace” had scant effect on Sharon’s political career; in 2001 he became Prime Minister.

    Stinging self-defence was replaced by overwhelming retaliation. The level of destruction in the attacks on Gaza and incursions into Lebanon seemed out of all proportion to the original provocation. Entire communities were devastated and displaced as a punishment for having terrorists in their midst.

    Yet Israelis should know as well as anyone that one people’s terrorist is another people’s freedom fighter. The Likud Party that has dominated Israeli politics in recent years is the direct descendant of Irgun, the Zionist terrorist group whose campaign to drive the British and Palestinians out of what is now Israel included the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem that killed 91 people.

    Two of Irgun’s leaders, Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, went on to become prime ministers.

    I don’t disbelieve Israeli claims that Hamas has weapons caches in schools and hospitals and Hamas fighters are hiding in plain sight among the civilian population. What I find disturbing is the implication that since Hamas puts the people it claims to represent in harm’s way, Israel bears no responsibility for the harm it inflicts on them.

    Given its Iron Dome missile protection system and vast military superiority, Israel could choose not to strike those schools and hospitals. Given its resources and tradition of resourcefulness, it could find other ways.

    But if the inevitable accusations of anti-Semitism that greet criticism of its ferocious assaults are anything to go by, Israel is now led by people who believe the history of the Jews gives the Jewish state the moral high ground in perpetuity and irrespective of its own actions.

    Writing in New York magazine under the headline “Why I have become less pro-Israel”, Jonathan Chait spoke for many when he spelt out the reasons for his alienation: the disproportionateness of Israel’s military responses which, in propaganda and diplomatic terms, plays into Hamas’s hands; the lack of any strategy beyond force and more force; the fact that Israel has effectively become a one-party state in which the voice of moderation has been reduced to a cry in the wilderness.

    We shouldn’t forget that, unlike them, Israel has never vowed to wipe its enemies off the map even though, again unlike them, it could do so.

    But in its eagerness to deploy its high-tech firepower against defenceless people living in desperately straitened circumstances, in the hectoring self-righteousness of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in the nauseating spectacle of Israelis gathering on a hillside with cartons of popcorn to watch their missiles and shells fall on Gaza, Israel is barely recognisable as the country it once was.

    Israel and its “Israel right or wrong” supporters are absolutely correct to say its critics are holding it to a higher standard than its enemies.

    The fact that Israel had higher standards than its neighbours was largely why we supported it in the first place.

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  157. Longknives (4,884 comments) says:

    “You don’t do anyone any favours by exaggerating a very sad statistic. ”

    It’s not a “Sad” statistic Judith it a Fucking Disgusting one..
    I had a friend who was working at Auckland Hospital when Nia Glassie died- Her dropkick family were pissing up and having a great old time in the carpark..
    Makes me sick just thinking about it. Pity Maori don’t feel the same way…

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  158. Chuck Bird (4,924 comments) says:

    Gump, have you a reference for claim that Stephen Dudley was beating the shit out of the younger brother? Your claim is contrary to the judge’s reason in her written decision.

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  159. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Paul Kelly Rocks it !!!

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  160. starboard (2,551 comments) says:

    Stop trying to minimise it Judith. ” Approximately 50 % ” Call bullshit on that. You wouldn’t know what day it is.

    Its hand wringers and apologists like you who are partly to blame Judith…instead of shooting at me , why don’t you have a crack at the offender? Now run along , it must be sherry time at the home.

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  161. Milburn35 (48 comments) says:

    TV3’s (The Nation) said that Colin Craig wasn’t invited for the debate as he had not been in Parliament before. They invited Mana, but as they are a new party, Internet Mana, they should have been excluded as well.

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  162. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    So as long as your victim has a dodgy ticker you can belt them, kick them….do what you want. If they can make some sort of move after you’ve had your fun & have the good grace to die a bit later you’re in the clear.

    Or we could call it what it was…..thuggery sanctioned by incompetent law makers.

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  163. cricko (380 comments) says:

    Point is,
    Judge Winkelman had the chance to say that her decision, while dictatated by the law,
    was the only one she could have come to.

    She did not take her opportunity to point that out.

    She did not get it. That is why……

    She may get one side, but that is not what we need in a High Court judge.

    a good Judge will anticipate public reaction in a case such as this and explain her reasons .

    Winkelman just isn’t able to get that.

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  164. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ starboard (2,488 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 5:35 pm

    So official statistics are lies are they? The police statistics are incorrect and they are fabricating them?

    Jeez, I’m not sure if you are racist or stupid or both. But obviously no matter what evidence is given to you, you’ll only believe what you want to believe.

    As long as people like you keep lying about such things, you give Maori an excuse not to address it. Reality and rationality is required to take a combined approach to stopping it. Every time someone like you takes on their racist rant, you divert the discourse from the actual reality of the problem.

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  165. Maggy Wassilieff (450 comments) says:

    @ Gump 5:13pm
    Tx

    This interpretation makes sense if you read on in the article… but a bit confusing for folks who associate 1st century with a time period in the Julian Calendar

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  166. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird

    See the post by georgebolwing @ 2.51pm for the Judge’s record of the events.

    The fight between Stephen Dudley and the younger boy had already started before the older brother became involved. The older brother saw it happening from the other side of the field and ran over to defend his brother.

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  167. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Judith

    Okay….five out of ten are Maori. Any separate figures indicating how many of the ten kids were killed by family members who identify as Maori (eg Pakeha kid killed by Mum’s defacto Maori boyfriend)?

    It would be helpful if you could cite or point us in the direction of some figures covering the one’s who were badly assaulted but didn’t actually die.

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  168. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    Gump#

    I don’t know anything about the dudley case, but I believe it is ok for family to step in and help – as long as it is for honest reasons, and not just to give the other side a ‘fucken good hiding’.

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  169. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (10,735 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 5:50 pm

    There are plenty of statistics on line Nasska, and I’m not excusing them, the problem is shocking, but its no where near 99.5%.

    I’ve sat through far too many conferences where discussion has been diverted because Maori apologists have been able to argue about how people have given wrong stats etc making things sound worse (just like this example) If people dealt with the exact figures, no one would have an excuse to escape the severity of the problem.

    The problem is what it is – its really bad, especially for Maori – making extreme and exaggerated comments only give those involved an excuse not to deal with it, and blame everyone else for getting it wrong. That was my point – keep it real, there is no reason to exaggerate – the reality is shocking enough.

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  170. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    Nasska#

    Live by the sword die by the sword.

    No one can really complain when an assailant starts matters, and then dies due to ‘resonable force in the circumstances’.

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  171. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    Hamas, peaceful followers of barbaric Islam: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/08/hamas-backers-spend-fortunes-on-rockets-and-tunnels-while-gazans-live-in-misery/

    Although the millions of Palestinians packed into the small strip suffer from chronic unemployment, and lack of electricity and running water, Hamas and its backers such as Qatar have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on tunnels and rockets with one goal in mind: killing Israelis.

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  172. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Dean Papa says at 5:30 pm

    “Wow, Paul Thomas, take a bow. I’d previously regarded you as a bit of a dill, to tell the truth. But after reading this gem of yours, you have gone way up in my estimation, mate!!”

    It is a shame he doesn’t tell the whole story and gets a few fact (Facts, who cares about facts?) wrong.

    “Given its Iron Dome missile protection system and vast military superiority, Israel could choose not to strike those schools and hospitals. Given its resources and tradition of resourcefulness, it could find other ways.”

    Of the 3360 rockets Hamas fired, DELIBERATELY AIMED AT CIVILIANS, only 584 were intercepted by Iron Dome.
    2,303 hit Israel and 475 of them hit Gaza causing death and destruction which was, for example. in the case where a Hamas rocket hit a hospital also blamed on Israel.
    Those rockets killed 6 people and injured more than 40.

    To minimise civilian casualties the IDF, among other things, send in ground troops to destroy terror tunnels and rockets instead of just levelling the whole place.
    65 IDF soldiers were killed in that operation. This could easily have been avoided by just using tanks, artillery and drones.
    The steps taken in that conflict by the IDF to avoid civilian deaths are inadvertently borne out by a study published by the United Nations itself, a study which shows that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare.
    The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed.
    That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one.
    In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia.
    In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one.

    But don’t let those stubborn facts get in the way.

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  173. goldnkiwi (1,543 comments) says:

    What a hoot Bainimarama? electioneering in NZ for Fiji elections. John Key should tour Australia lol

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  174. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Fair enough Judith….for what it’s worth I agree that exaggerating statistics by even a small amount allows various scum an out & absolves them from any accountability for their actions.

    It’s a tactic used to great effect by “oppressed minorities”. Only the Femnazis have a better mastery of the art than race apologists.

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  175. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Harriet

    In the case of a “fair” one on one fight a death is excusable. Not so when an older & larger antagonist decides to get in on the act.

    If the “hero” big brother had pulled his head in & let them sort it out I would have no bitch with the judge’s decision.

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  176. Griff (8,197 comments) says:

    STATISTICS

    Seven times more young Maori women and four times more Maori children are
    hospitalised from an assault compared to Pakeha women and children.
    Extreme you bet.
    Extremely violent savages living in a pre civilization tribal cultural mind set
    But but but Maori love their family’s
    all the way into A&E

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  177. mikenmild (11,759 comments) says:

    ‘In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one’
    Source please. I believe that ratio might involve fairly loose definitions of who counts as a ‘combatant’.

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  178. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Manolo says at 6:02 pm

    “Although the millions of Palestinians packed into the small strip suffer from chronic unemployment, and lack of electricity and running water,….”

    Hamas doesn’t give a flying f**k as Israel supplies Gaza with electricity and water.
    The IDF also brought in 1,856 trucks carrying 40,550 tons of supplies into Gaza for civilians during the conflict.

    This means that Hamas can concentrate on killing as many Jews as possible.

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  179. georgebolwing (1,011 comments) says:

    We can also get further insight into what happen from the decision of Justice Winklemann in the case of R v Q [2014] NZHC 550 (21 March 2014). Q was the younger brother of M who was in the fight with Stephen Dudley. Q was also discharged without conviction after he pleaded guilty to assaulting Stephen Dudley.

    Here is another (regrettably longish) summary of the facts:

    “[2] You and your brother and the victim, Stephen Dudley, were students of the same high school in West Auckland. You and Stephen were 15 years’ old at the time and were in the same rugby team. The team was close-knit, consisting mainly of students who had also attended the same Intermediate School. You knew your teammates well, including Stephen.

    [3] On the day, your team had come together for a pre-season practice. Prior to training, a fellow teammate had been making fun of and joking around with Stephen. You joined in. Stephen became offended at what was said, and a fight almost broke out between the two of you and mutual taunts were exchanged. Your teammates intervened and prevented things from escalating further. The team practice then proceeded without any further incident.

    [4] After practice ended, Stephen picked up his schoolbag and rugby gear and turned to go home. However it seems that some of your teammates wanted to see a fight and someone called out (it was not you) to Stephen to come back. He did. Some people got out cellphones to film a fight and you say you felt pressure to fight. You ignored the members of the team who were trying to stop the fight, and walked to the centre of the field where Stephen met you.

    [5] Meanwhile, your 17 year old brother had arrived to pick you up after practice. Someone told him you were about to be in a fight. He ran over to where Stephen was standing. While Stephen was distracted your brother struck him on the neck with a swinging right arm. Stephen hunched over, and you and your brother punched him several times in the torso. Stephen did not throw a punch. I say that because we have referred to it as a school yard fight, but the reality is that Stephen did not throw a punch.

    [6] You and your brother left the scene. You say that when you left Stephen he seemed okay. You had no idea that he was unwell or that he had collapsed. Tragically, Stephen subsequently lost consciousness and died. It has emerged since the assault that Stephen had an undiagnosed heart condition which made him vulnerable to problems with his heart’s rhythm in situations of traumatic stress. No- one knew he had that condition. There is no clear link between your offending and Stephen’s death. However, the reality is, as you have acknowledged in the affidavit you filed in court, that if the fight had not taken place, Stephen might be alive today.”

    Again, it seems to me that this was a schoolyard fight (or at least the start of a schoolyard fight) between to 15 year olds and M intervened to help his brother.

    Some of the media commentary I have seen makes it sound like Stephen Dudley was minding his own business, when set upon by two people did didn’t know who punched him to the ground and then kicked him and left him for dead.

    What I see from the judgments is two 15 years olds resuming an earlier altercation, a brother arriving to intervene, king hitting Stephen and then punching him in the body and leaving him standing up and apparently OK.

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  180. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    mikenmild says at 6:17 pm

    ‘In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one’ ource please. I believe that ratio might involve fairly loose definitions of who counts as a ‘combatant’.”

    We will not get to the truth until the battle is over. But we know now that Hamas have ordered their people to report all deaths as innocent civilians. We know too that Hamas has a track record of lying about casualties.

    After Operation Cast Lead, the 2008-09 fighting in Gaza, the IDF estimated that of 1,166 Palestinian deaths, 709 were fighters. Hamas – backed by several NGOs – claimed that only 49 of its fighters had been killed, the rest were innocent civilians. Much later they were forced to admit that the IDF had been right all along and between 600 and 700 of the casualties had in fact been fighters.

    Analysis of casualty details released by Qatar-based Al Jazeera indicate that so far in the conflict most of those killed in Gaza have been young men of fighting age, not women, children or old people.
    According to one analyst, despite comprising around 50% of the population, the proportion of women among the dead is 21%.

    Preliminary analysis by the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center in Israel suggests that 71, or 46.7%, of the first 152 Palestinians killed were fighters and 81, or 53.3%, non-involved civilians.

    None of this analysis is definitive. But it does cast doubt upon the accusations of indiscriminate attack against the population by the IDF and upon the UN estimates – widely trumpeted as fact by the media and the not-exactly unbiased United Nations – that between 70 and 80% of Palestinian casualties have been civilians.

    PS- And Richard Kemp CBE, a former commander of British troops in Afghanistan also confirms that ratio.

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  181. goldnkiwi (1,543 comments) says:

    gump (1,518 comments) says:

    August 9th, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    And look what happened to Connor Morris doing the same thing for his associates.

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  182. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    ….” No- one knew he had that condition. There is no clear link between your offending and Stephen’s death. However, the reality is, as you have acknowledged in the affidavit you filed in court, that if the fight had not taken place, Stephen might be alive today.” “…..

    Nah….not a link in sight! It was just an everyday, average case of a fifteen year old whose heart was doing just great until a larger & older assailant lays into him. No connection here; in fact everyone should have their hearts checked just in case a thug loses the plot somewhere in your vicinity.

    Next case.

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  183. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    “….What I see from the judgments is two 15 years olds resuming an earlier altercation, a brother arriving to intervene, king hitting Stephen and then punching him in the body and leaving him standing up and apparently OK….”

    What I see is that the victim stayed at the prompting of his mates to fight Q – who was leaving – and only then returned at the prompting of his mates.

    The mates seem to be the antagonists in all of it – rather than the victim, Q or M. Although Q did join in after the start with name calling.

    M seems to be taking a bit more blame than he should be. After all – the victim was the person standing their ground – so a fight would possably ensue.

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  184. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    Stephieboy will have a heart attack: http://www.infowars.com/alex-jones-asks-is-michelle-obama-a-man/

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  185. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Dean Papa says at 5:30 pm

    And something else……..

    “I don’t disbelieve Israeli claims that Hamas has weapons caches in schools and hospitals and Hamas fighters are hiding in plain sight among the civilian population.”

    No sh!t Thomas, don’t disbelieve…?
    There is definite proof (Photos, video) that that Hamas has weapons caches in schools, houses, mosques, cemeteries, hospitals and uses those places to launch rockets. There is also definite proof that Hamas fighters are hiding among the civilian population, even preventing them from leaving and actually telling them to put themselves in harms’ way.

    If people like Thomas were honest reporters and would call them out for this and the UN would condemn this, Hamas might (Probably not) think twice. But both the media and the UN gives Hamas a free pass….
    It’s a wonder the IDF still gives a sh!t.

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  186. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    a brother arriving to intervene, king hitting Stephen and then punching him in the body

    He didn’t intervene, he took sides with his brother to turn what was a fair fight into a one sided beating.

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  187. OneTrack (3,229 comments) says:

    “He didn’t intervene, he took sides with his brother to turn what was a fair fight into a one sided beating.”

    But, in Winkelman World, that’s OK because the victim had a heart condition.

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  188. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Look how upset LK gets over the murder of one baby. Imagine the anguish he must feel at the murder of 200. Oh wait, he was one of the chinless wonders cheering on the Israelis! Let that be a lesson to you, folks, one of the symptoms of alcohol induced brain damage -cognitive dissonance! If only LK had smoked some weed instead!!

    That’s 200 Palestinian babies murdered, Andy, my dear old chum. You can play with those stats however you want. It will make no difference, it is an atrocity. I wonder how the risk of being hit by a Hamas rocket in Israel stacks up with the other dangers that citizens face on a daily basis in their lives? As you seem to fancy yourself as a stats man, Andy, I’ll leave it to you to look up that info for us.

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  189. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4uq8xu0x68wljri/Consent.jpg

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  190. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (10,739 comments) says:
    August 9th, 2014 at 7:27 pm

    I always call him and distinctly hear him say ‘I’m coming’, although he’s never made an appearance yet!

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  191. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Pop down to Wainui and he will Judith! :)

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  192. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    What’s the fastest animal on earth?

    A sheep running through Wainuiomata.

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  193. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    With Johnboy chasing it in his Holden nasska! :)

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  194. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Dean Papa says at 7:24 pm

    So no rebuttal then?
    Typical.
    200 babies….where do you get your facts?
    From drug induced hallucinations or pulled straight from your…..?

    If you are getting so upset about those ‘Palestinian babies’ why don’t you tell your mates at Hamas to stop firing rockets.
    Your scummy fascist friends have now broken the 5th cease fire.
    They are responsible for the mayhem.
    Or is that too complicated to understand for you?

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  195. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    When you’re too old for the chase you can always fall back to the internet for a modern approach to your needs JB. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/flh4m9vdcbjljqg/Sheep%2032.jpg

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  196. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Do you think “Lonely and French” may be Yvette in disguise nasska? :)

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  197. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Might pay to give it a miss JB…..at 42 I reckon she’d probably be broken mouthed. :)

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  198. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    But I’m so happy nasska. Minus isn’t here tonight! :)

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  199. Steve (North Shore) (4,589 comments) says:

    While you are bored shitless with today’s silly people (full moon Monday)
    here is something to do. Get some beers and give it shit.
    http://www.megafungames.com/games/shoot_bin_laden/aff.php

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  200. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    oh dear, Andy Pandy, what a drongo you are. My “mates at Hamas”? Really Andy, is that the best you can do? You seem incapable of debating this issue in a civil manner. Why is that, I wonder? God made them do it. Hamas made them do it. Whatever.

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  201. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Hit 14, missed 3, hostage 1,……A bit of collateral is acceptable Steve! :)

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  202. nasska (11,808 comments) says:

    Luigi walks to work 20 blocks every day and passes a shoe store twice every day. Each day he stops and looks in the window to admire the Armani leather shoes. He wants those beautiful shoes so much… it’s all he can think about.

    After about 2 months he saves the price of the shoes, $300, and purchases them.

    Every Friday night the Italian community holds a dance in the church basement. Luigi seizes this opportunity to wear his new Armani’s for the first time.

    He asks Sophia to dance and as they dance he asks her “Sophia, do you wear red panties tonight?” Taken aback, Sophia replies “Yes, Luigi, I do wear red panties tonight, but how do you know?” Luigi answers “I see the reflection in my new $300 Armani leather shoes. How do you like them?”

    Next he asks Rosa to dance and after a few minutes he asks “Rosa do you wear white panties tonight?” Rosa answers “Yes, Luigi, I do, but how do you know that?” He replies “I see the reflection in my new $300 Armani leather shoes… how do you like them?”

    Now as the evening is almost over and the last song is being played, Luigi asks Carmela to dance. Midway through the dance his face turns red. He states “Carmela, be stilla my heart. Please, please tell me you wear no panties tonight. Please, please, tella me this true!”

    Carmela smiles coyly and answers “Yes Luigi, I wear no panties tonight…” Luigi gasps “Thanka God… I thought I had a CRACK in my $300 Armani leather shoes!”

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  203. Griff (8,197 comments) says:

    A linguistics professor was lecturing his class the other day. “In English,” he said “a double negative forms a positive. However, in some languages, such as Russian, a double negative remains a negative. But there isn’t a single language, not one, in which a double positive can express a negative”, at which point a kiwi is overheard commenting, “Yeah, right.”

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  204. stephieboy (3,405 comments) says:

    Cracking the nuts of the lunatic fringe idiocy Infowawrs, Paul Craig Roberts, Prison Planet and shall we add Manolo,

    http://www.fontcraft.com/idiotwars/?page_id=2

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  205. doggone7 (827 comments) says:

    bringbackdemocracy: “The anti-smacking law has only two faults. 1) What it does do. Criminalise good parents…”

    I don’t follow these things. How many good parents have been criminalised by that law?

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  206. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    RBI Governor Raghuram Rajan warns of global market ‘crash’
    The former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund compared the current global markets to the 1930s – a period marked by the Great Depression.

    Rajan said back then countries were engaged in a period of competitive devaluation, in a similar way to central banks now being engaged in ever more accommodative policies.

    “We are taking a greater chance of having another crash at a time when the world is less capable of bearing the cost,” Rajan said in an interview.

    Rajan said he worried about the impact of investors exiting markets all at once after buying heavily into assets inflated by these loose central bank policies.

    “There will be major market volatility if that occurs. True, it may not happen if we can find a way to unwind everything steadily. But it is a big hope and a prayer,” Rajan said.
    http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2014-08-07/news/52556324_1_rbi-governor-raghuram-rajan-markets-policies

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  207. Steve (North Shore) (4,589 comments) says:

    Johnboy, give it shit and reload at least 3 times, fuckin bang!

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  208. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Just found out someone I know was at Britomart train station tonight after Disney on Ice with his daughter when he was challenged several times by a complete stranger who kept on shouting Al-Yahud Khazeer at him which means “you Jewish pig” in Arabic

    What has happened to NZ and who let these people in?

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  209. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    “What has happened to NZ and who let these people in?”

    Good question. Being an immigrant myself I have generally leaned towards a moderate pro-immigration stance, but I am increasingly leaning towards the view that we should restrict or stop outright Muslim immigration to NZ.

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  210. Gulag1917 (1,019 comments) says:

    Israel-Gaza conflict: The myth of Hamas’s human shields
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

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  211. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    The silence of the Left is deafening when comes to the atrocities perpetrated by ISIS and its barbaric jihadists.
    Quick to criticise Israel, completely silent on the Islamic savages.

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  212. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    The genocide going on under ISIS is shaping up to be the worst since Rwanda. It is truly horrific. But yes, some people and some media are only concerned with Israel’s response to terrorists.

    The hypocrisy makes me want to puke.

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  213. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Who are they going to protest to Manolo, and how would that make a difference?

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  214. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    The hypocrisy makes me want to puke.

    Heh. Like Paul the false apostle, you mean?

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  215. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    Nothing false about Paul UglyNut, except in your deranged mind.

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  216. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Nothing false about Paul UglyNut, except in your deranged mind.

    How can a hypocrite be a true apostle?

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  217. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    Anyone can be a true Apostle if they are called by Christ, as he was. The blood of Christ washes away all sins.

    That said, he was not a hypocrite. Unlike you.

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  218. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Anyone can be a true Apostle if they are called by Christ, as he was.

    His calling was to proceed for further instructions.
    But he lied about that as well.

    That said, he was not a hypocrite. Unlike you.

    I see that you are still big on slander, Shawn.
    So, do you deny that he was a Pharisee, or do you deny that the Pharisees where condemned as hypocrites?

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  219. big bruv (14,157 comments) says:

    “The blood of Christ washes away all sins.”

    I much prefer soap.

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  220. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    Not slander, it is hypocritical to selectively quote the one part of the New Testament while ignoring others.

    “do you deny that he was a Pharisee”

    Prior to his conversion. Once he accepted Christ as his Saviour that becomes irrelevant because, as I said, the blood of Christ washes away all sins.

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  221. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    So no visit from the police yet BB?

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  222. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    it is hypocritical to selectively quote the one part of the New Testament while ignoring others.

    Not unless relevant text is ignored. Claiming that what Paul said was true because Paul said that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” is circular reasoning based on a fallacy.

    Prior to his conversion.

    What conversion? He never repented.

    Paul was a Pharisee while he was teaching salvation by faith.

    But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
    Acts 23:6

    Once he accepted Christ as his Saviour that becomes irrelevant because, as I said, the blood of Christ washes away all sins.

    Like you previously quoted:
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
    Matthew 7:21

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  223. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    “What conversion? He never repented.”

    His repentance was inherent in his acceptance of Christ.

    “Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

    5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

    “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

    7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.”

    Acts 9:1-19

    From that point on, while he is technically in the lineage of the Pharisees, he was now a disciple.

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  224. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    His repentance was inherent in his acceptance of Christ.

    No, it wasn’t.

    nacham
    to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted

    metanoeō
    to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
    to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins

    From that point on, while he is technically in the lineage of the Pharisees, he was now a disciple.

    No, he was only a disciple while he followed the teachings or instruction. All he was told to do was proceed to Damascus for further instructions.
    There is no reason to believe that he was a disciple after that point.

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  225. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    Yes Ugly, to accept Christ and be baptised is to repent and be saved.

    “Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,”

    So from that point on, he was a disciple, as are all who are baptized.

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  226. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Yes Ugly, to accept Christ and be baptised is to repent and be saved.

    No, falling to the ground, being blinded, going to Damascus and getting immersed in water doesn’t mean that you have repented or that you are saved.

    So from that point on, he was a disciple, as are all who are baptized.

    Disciple means pupil, it has nothing to do with baptism.

    mathētēs
    a learner, pupil, disciple

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  227. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    “No, falling to the ground, being blinded, going to Damascus and getting immersed in water doesn’t mean that you have repented or that you are saved.”

    Yes it does. Jesus came to Him, and Paul accepts Him. He is baptized. Thus he has repented and is saved. The fact that He accepts the Lord, whom has previously persecuted, is clear repentance, a 180 degree turn from his previous life. And baptism is an objective sacrament that unites a person with Christ.

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  228. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    “No, falling to the ground, being blinded, going to Damascus and getting immersed in water doesn’t mean that you have repented or that you are saved.”

    Yes it does. Jesus came to Him, and Paul accepts Him.

    He acknowledged the speaker. This doesn’t imply acceptance of anything other than the identity of the one who spoke to him.

    accept

    1. consent to receive or undertake (something offered).
    2. believe or come to recognize (a proposition) as valid or correct.

    He is baptized.

    How would those who witnessed the so-called baptism know that it meant anything? All they could reasonably be expected to have observed was that Paul was immersed in water somewhere.

    Thus he has repented and is saved.

    Non sequitur.

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  229. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Bloody hell, I sneak away to make a hot chocolate, come back and I’ve wandered into a church service.

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  230. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    To go from persecuting Christ to accepting him, which is clear from his writings, is a sign of repentance. To go from persecuting the Church to serving the Church is a clear sign of repentance. To be baptized is a clear and objective sign of repentance.

    The act of being baptized is objective, not subjective. The very act unites a person with Christ.

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  231. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    Wrong thread Judith ;) Two GD’s are in operation. And it is Sunday after all. :)

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  232. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    A church service where a heretic is waving his hands and shouting at the pastor, Judith.

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  233. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    So early and the madman jihadist has already escaped the Islamic asylum? Were the guards asleep?

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  234. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (3,944 comments) says:
    August 10th, 2014 at 7:38 am
    Nothing false about Paul UglyNut, except in your deranged mind.

    I just adore the way you follow Jesus’ loving example.

    “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another “

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  235. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (3,946 comments) says:
    August 10th, 2014 at 8:41 am
    Wrong thread Judith ;) Two GD’s are in operation. And it is Sunday after all. :)

    Oh well, I may as well stay here now, although I haven’t bought anything for the collection plate, but I’m happy to share the wisdom of my words :-)

    Besides I know some real doozy alternative words to many of the hymns.

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  236. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    “I just adore the way you follow Jesus’ loving example.”

    Jesus said much worse to those that opposed him. Loving a person is not always about being nice.

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  237. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Sorry Shawn, I was being rude and I’m always first to spout off about freedom of speech, I shouldn’t have butted in. Was just being cheeky!! :-)

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  238. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    I know, it’s no problem. I’m always cranky before my second cup of coffee.

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  239. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    To go from persecuting Christ to accepting him, which is clear from his writings, is a sign of repentance.

    No, acceptance involves belief and recognition of a truth. Paul didn’t accept the core teaching:

    Galatians 5
    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Galatians 5:14

    Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
    Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    This is the first and great commandment.
    And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    Matthew 22:35-40

    To go from persecuting the Church to serving the Church is a clear sign of repentance.

    Paul did not serve the council as a true apostle would, since he did not convey their message:

    And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
    Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
    It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
    Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
    For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
    That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
    Acts 15:24-29

    And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
    Only [they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
    Galatians 2:10-11

    To be baptized is a clear and objective sign of repentance.

    Again, there is no way of knowing that the reported baptism of Paul meant anything.

    The act of being baptized is objective, not subjective. The very act unites a person with Christ.

    Acts do not necessarily represent the intangible.

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  240. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    “No, acceptance involves belief and recognition of a truth. Paul didn’t accept the core teaching:”

    Yes he did, it is in his letters repeatedly. 1 Corinthians 13 is just one example.

    “gain, there is no way of knowing that the reported baptism of Paul meant anything.”

    It always means something, because it is objective. The act alone unites a person with Christ. That has always been the teaching of the Church, Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican.

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  241. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    “Acts do not necessarily represent the intangible.”

    Sacramental acts always do. The Sacraments of baptism and communion are always representative and incarnational. God is always present in them.

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  242. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    “No, acceptance involves belief and recognition of a truth. Paul didn’t accept the core teaching:”

    Yes he did, it is in his letters repeatedly. 1 Corinthians 13 is just one example.

    1 Corinthians 13 doesn’t address the difference in doctrine between Galatians 5 & Matthew 22.

    It always means something, because it is objective.

    All an act objectively means is that the concrete nature of the event has been observed. The act itself does not describe the the intangible nature of the event.

    The act alone unites a person with Christ. That has always been the teaching of the Church, Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican.

    You saying it, or the church saying it, does not make it true.

    Focusing on the act rather than the intangibles gives only superficial interpretation of the meaning of the event.

    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
    Matthew 23:27

    “Acts do not necessarily represent the intangible.”

    Sacramental acts always do. The Sacraments of baptism and communion are always representative and incarnational. God is always present in them.

    This is a statement of faith which has no connection to reality.

    sacrament
    (in the Christian Church) a ceremony regarded as imparting spiritual grace…

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  243. twofish (104 comments) says:

    “I have a rule – when I’m on the water, I don’t think about what goes on on land …”
    but, nec minnit –
    “National stole that snapper from you, buddy, kiss it goodbye, because under the rules this is too small to keep. Isn’t that a heartbreak” – Cunliffe fishing

    The answer David is to catch big fish, like those Winston caught – even if he paid someone else to catch them for him, his photo is a bloody sight better than yours.

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  244. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    because the law of the land says you must be buried in a cemetery

    LOL

    The legislation of parliament is not the law of the land.

    lex terre

    The law of the land. The common law, or the due course of the common law; the general law of the land. Equivalent to “due process of law”. In the strictest sense, trial by oath; the privilege of making oath. (Blacks 5th)

    common law

    1. As distinguished from the Roman law, the modern civil law, the canon law, and other systems, the common law is that body of law and juristic theory which was originated, developed, and formulated and is administered in England, and has obtained amongst most of the states and peoples of Anglo-Saxon stock. Lux v. Haggin, 69 Cal 255, 10 Pac. 674. 2. As distinguished from law created by the enactment of legislatures, the common law comprises the body of those principles and rules of action, relating to the government and security of persons and property, which derive their authority solely from usages and customs of immemorial antiquity, or from the judgments and decrees of the courts recognizing, affirming, and enforcing such usages and customs; and in this sense, particularly the ancient unwritten law of England. (Black’s 2nd)

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