General Debate 25 October 2008

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Rod

National’s coasting to victory strategy – is it working?

In such a target rich environment surely they could do a powerful lot more psychological damage on the credibility of the LPG group by opening fire a lot more?

Helen is taking a lot of pot shots. Usually has to create her own targets out of her imagination or ancient history though, so not especially effective.

A few well aimed high calibre shots from JK at targets that everybody can see are real issues of today could be absolutely devastating.

Is anyone else frustrated like me? Or is JK onto a smarter strategy?
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October 25, 2008 11:28am
gomango

National strategy (to me) seems to be one of moral higher ground, very similar to Rudd’s – don’t engage in the gutter debate.. Interesting is the light poll stuff in the herald “who is mostt likely to change a nappy, host an exchanfge student etc”. The Key/Clark gap is massive – in a presidential style election likeability goes a long way.

I think the strategy is sound – fear and loathing only appeals to entrenched voters – I’m not sure it will convert people in the middle. Couldd be wrong though – having lived on both sides of the Tasman Kiwis are generally more meek and easily told what to do than ockers who tend to have both more of a rebellious/larrakin streak as well as a keener sense of fairness.
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October 25, 2008 11:41am
Lee C

No I agree – he really need to warn the electorate that if they vote for the left alliance, they are wasting their ballot – it will merely return Labour into the driver’s seat regardless of numbers – it is Labour that has the party organisation and assertiveness to make all the others dance to their tune.
Key needs to ‘go hard’ for the last two weeks of the drive, or he will end up as history’s ‘also ran’ along with ‘Gentleman Don’.
This alongside a positive, upbeat, attitude which will force people to see through Clark as she tries to wing it..
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October 25, 2008 11:43am
Redbaiter

Good blog article by a journalist on how the profession has been betrayed and brought to a new level of general contempt by the actions of the large majority of partisan leftists/ liberals/ socialists who presume to practice that craft. He’s so ashamed by the failure of his colleagues to do their jobs that when asked what he does for a living, he is unwilling to state his profession is journalism.

http://pajamasmedia.com/edgelings/2008/10/24/editing-their-way-to-oblivion-journalism-sacraficed-for-power-and-pensions/

Whereas the issue is the media’s unapologetic bias towards Barack Obama in the US, the same criticism applies here in NZ to a large extent, with so many mainstream journalists totally in the tank for the Klark/ Labour gang of crooks.
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October 25, 2008 11:47am
dad4justice

Has Helengrad got all her internet lefty trolls locked in the compound confined to the wretched Liarbour barracks?
Hi roger and sonic.
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October 25, 2008 11:53am
Rod

@ gomango – taking the moral high ground over today’s news about Winston’s newest trust and the Wishart story with a powerful statement or two is an opportunity that seems to have gone begging, unless I missed something.
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October 25, 2008 11:57am
Shunda barunda

Yes redbaiter, there is a revolting standard of journalism in the US, I was in the US recently and couldn’t believe the poor standard of their newspapers, especially in LA, it was just blatant biased crap.
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October 25, 2008 12:09pm
pywacket

On the subject of Peters’ money manipulation:-

The Stuff site is running a poll on whether the “donation” to the Susan Couch Trust is laudable or not. I’m stunned to see the approval vote way out in front.

I’m sure everyone is sympathetic towards Mrs Couch but Peters again using cynical manipulation for his own cause makes me spew. So why are so many supporting the action. The money was not Peters to distribute..
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October 25, 2008 12:09pm
Rod

@ pywacket – why not? Because the full story isn’t out there and understood. National should hold Winston to account. Who else will speak out? Those wanting to claim leadership, moral and otherwise, should be out in front on this and many other issues, but seem to be MIA.
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October 25, 2008 12:13pm
grumpyoldhori

Yep, the US media do seem a bit tough on the god bothering, bible bashing types heroes.
Hell they even stated that a big black bloke carving a D in a women’s face was a load of bollocks.
A true working class women spends $150,000 on clothing, not like that coloured woman Obama spending $30 at the Gap for a dress, she must be an elitist.

Looks like the cuzzy party will be going with Labour, will make it a bit tough for Key to find a partner after Worth wins Epsom.
But hey, you Nats will never learn not to play the race card will you, first Iwi rules, now Polynesians do not have the ability to learn to use the dunny and the shower.
Keep Smith as spokesman, he is doing a great job 🙂
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October 25, 2008 12:21pm
PhilBest

Thanks for that link, Redbaiter. That essay is a great enlargement on the way I have been coming to look at that issue: I said this on a thread here just yesterday:

“…..I do not believe for a moment, all their glorious polls in the USA that say that Obama is a shoo-in, McCain supporters may as well just stay home on the day. The media is taking a frightful gamble on this. If their ploy does not work, they are going to be six feet under several tons of shame and odium for years to come. Their polls have “traditionally” been skewed around 5% in favour of the Democratic Candidate in comparison to the actual election result. I am picking that this time round, the 5% of the past will look not merely excusable, but downright honourable by comparison…..”
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October 25, 2008 12:22pm
PhilBest

October 23, 2008 WALL STREET JOURNAL
Hatin’ Palin
By Daniel Henninger

“The abuse being heaped on Sarah Palin is such a cheap shot.

The complaint against the Alaska governor, at its most basic, is that she doesn’t qualify for admission to the national political fraternity. Boy, that’s rich. Behold the shabby frat house that says it’s above her pay grade.

Congress has the lowest approval rating ever registered in the history of polling (12%!). She isn’t the reason polls are showing people want the entire Congress fired, with many telling pollsters they themselves could do a better job.

Sarah Palin didn’t design a system of presidential primaries whose length and cost ensures that only the most obsessional personalities will run the gauntlet, while a long list of effective governors don’t run.

These rules have wasted the electorate’s time the past three presidential elections, by filling the debates with such zero-support candidates as Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, Al Sharpton, Duncan Hunter, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden (8,000 total votes), Wesley Clark and Alan Keyes.

Out of this process has fallen a Democratic nominee who entered the U.S. Senate in 2005 fresh off a stint in the Illinois state legislature, with next to no record of political accomplishment. He may be elected mainly because, in Colin Powell’s word, he is thought to be “transformational.” One may hope so.

By not bothering to look very deeply at the details beneath either candidate’s governing proposals, the media have created a lot of downtime to take free kicks at Gov. Palin. My former colleague, Tunku Varadarajan, has compiled a glossary of Palin invective, and I’ve added a few: “Republican blow-up doll,” “idiot,” “Christian Stepford wife,” “Jesus freak,” “Caribou Barbie,” “a dope,” “a fatal cancer to the Republican Party,” “liar,” “a national disgrace” and “her pretense that she is a woman.”

If American politics is at low ebb, it is because so many of its observers enjoy working in its fetid backwash.

The primary discomfort with Gov. Palin is the notion that she doesn’t have sufficient experience to be president, that Sen. McCain should have picked a Washington hand seasoned in the ways of the world. Such as? Here’s an opinion poll question:

If as Joe Biden suggests the U.S. is likely to be tested by a foreign enemy next year, who of the following would you rather have dealing with it in the Oval Office: Nancy (of Damascus) Pelosi, Harry Reid, John Edwards, Joe (the U.S. drove Hezbollah out of Lebanon) Biden, Mike Huckabee, Geraldine Ferraro, Tom DeLay, Jimmy Carter or Sarah Palin?

My pick? Gov. Palin, surely the most grounded, common-sense person on that list of prime-time politicians.

The established political pros let the selection process come to this. Presidential candidates such as John McCain and Barack Obama have become untethered from the discipline of party institutions, largely because the parties have lost coherence. So we get celebrity candidates made famous, fundable and electable by dint of their access to the Beltway media. For voters, this election is a national Hail Mary.

For nearly two years, all the major candidates have rotated through our lives as solitary personalities attended by careerist campaign professionals. Barack, Hillary, Rudy, Mitt, Mike, McCain. When the moment arrived to pick a running mate, input from the parties was minimal. That famous party boss, Caroline Kennedy, advised Barack Obama. They picked a three-decade denizen of the Senate. John McCain’s obligation was himself and his endless slog to this big chance.

The quick surge of party-wide excitement and campaign contributions after his selection of Sarah Palin made clear that the McCain candidacy was moribund and headed for a low-turnout debacle. If he had picked any of the plain-vanilla men on his veep short list — Pawlenty, Sanford, Romney or Lieberman — they’d have won approval from the media’s college of cardinals, and killed his campaign.

The stoning of Sarah Palin has exposed enough cultural fissures in American politics to occupy strategists full-time until 2012. We now see there is a left-to-right elite centered in New York, Washington, Hollywood and Silicon Valley who hand down judgments of the nation’s mortals from their perch atop the Bell Curve.

It seems only yesterday that the most critical skill in presidential politics was being able to connect to people in places like Bronko’s bar or Saddleback Church. When Gov. Palin showed she excelled at that, the goal posts suddenly moved and the new game was being able to talk the talk in London, Paris, Tehran or Moscow. She looks about a half-step behind Sen. Obama on that learning curve.

Lorne Michaels, the executive producer of “Saturday Night Live,” lives on the forward wave of American life. This week he gave his view of Sarah Palin to EW.com: “I think Palin will continue to be underestimated for a while. I watched the way she connected with people, and she’s powerful. Her politics aren’t my politics. But you can see that she’s a very powerful, very disciplined, incredibly gracious woman. This was her first time out and she’s had a huge impact. People connect to her.”

Uh-oh. Sounds like the cancer could be in remission.”
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October 25, 2008 12:25pm
Redbaiter

“So why are so many supporting the action.?”

Given Klark’s relationship with Peters, the poll is probably being engineered by Labour’s usual bunch of cowards frauds and scam artists.
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October 25, 2008 12:26pm
PhilBest

READ THIS. IS THIS N.Z. UNDER THE HELEBAN IN A FEW YEARS TIME?

OCTOBER 23, 2008 WALL STREET JOURNAL

Argentina’s Property Grab

“Argentine President Cristina Kirchner announced this week that her government intends to nationalize the country’s private pension system. If Congress approves this property grab, $30 billion in individually held retirement accounts — think 401(k)s — managed by private pension funds will become government property.

That the state could seize retirement savings no doubt seems outrageous to Americans. But it is a predictable development in a country where government intervention in the financial system is the norm. With Washington now expanding its role as guarantor in American banking, that’s something to think about.

Mrs. Kirchner won’t have trouble making the case for expropriation to Congress, which is controlled by her fellow Peronists. When the Argentine government ran out of money in 2001, it blamed the market and increased its own role in the economy. Since then it has imposed price controls, defaulted on its debt, seized dollar bank accounts, devalued the currency, nationalized businesses and tried to set confiscatory tax rates with the aim of making society more “fair.” Mrs. Kirchner and her predecessor (and husband) Nestór Kirchner have also preserved the Peronist tradition of big spending.

All of this has been deemed acceptable because of the “crisis.” But it has come at a cost: Among emerging market investors Argentina is now considered one of the worst places on the planet to put your money. Now that commodity prices are cooling and the global economy is slowing, Mrs. Kirchner is facing a $10 billion shortfall in what is due on government debt by the end of 2009. Where else to turn but to the resources of the private sector? Argentina, if little else, serves as a cautionary tale on how to ruin an economy.”
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October 25, 2008 12:28pm
Paul Gardner

Maybe National supporters should use the same clever tactics as Obama’s supporters?

See http://paulgardner.info/humor/oh-no-i-lost-the-election/
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October 25, 2008 12:30pm
PhilBest

THIS Aussie freelance journalist has done a FABULOUS job putting THIS together:

Want to know the TRUTH about the current state of global warming theory in 18 pages of easy-to-follow format?

READ THIS, and spread it around all your friends…….SEND IT TO YOUR NATIONAL MP or candidate……

“The Skeptics Handbook”:

http://joannenova.com.au/globalwarming/scepticshandbook1-1.pdf
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October 25, 2008 12:32pm
Redbaiter

“The media is taking a frightful gamble on this. If their ploy does not work, they are going to be six feet under several tons of shame and odium for years to come. ”

They will be anyway- they seem to be so intent on their mission to elect Obama they are completely overlooking the fact that around 50% of their customers, even if Obama loses, are going to be highly pissed off. If he wins, they are going to be enraged. I wouldn’t want to be ajournalist for the next few years- in a complete turn about to the light shiners they should be, they have proven themsleves to be partisan scum in bed with tyrants frauds and crooks and at the same time as they viciously attack Sarah Palin with fake news, are determined to downplay any real news that might damage the Obama vote.

I read another good piece this morning that addresses the the same issue you raise-

http://www.poligazette.com/2008/10/24/the-role-of-the-media-in-the-next-four-years/
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October 25, 2008 12:36pm
Redbaiter

Another good article on pro Obama bias by Patrick Buchanan-

What if Saturday Night Live mocked Michelle Obama??

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78921
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October 25, 2008 12:38pm
gazzaj

If you feel like a laugh, check out the International Philosophers for Peace and Prevention of Nuclear Omnicide website. It must be up there among the most ridiculous organisations of all time.

In one of his more famous aphorisms Nietzsche says, “If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.” Watching a small child with a hammer makes the point obvious. Recognizing the broader implications may give us insight into our continuing to rely on violence to address bad situations.

I think the main reason we continue to design, create, stockpile, deploy, use, clean up after and replace ever more ingenious means of violence is that we don’t know what else to do. But we are Americans, after all, and we have to do something. We can’t just sit by and let grave injustice flourish and we’re not about to admit that we have no idea what might actually help the situation.

The only tool we have is violence. Of course we would use it. Taking up violence satisfies our need to do something to counter violence, invasion, injustice. Violence can satisfy an urge for revenge and occasionally it can set a temporary negative peace in place, at least for as long as we’re willing to remain an occupying force. But negative peace wrought through violence is at best a begrudging concession of a beaten, resentful and humiliated enemy.
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October 25, 2008 12:40pm
Redbaiter

..and here’s an example of what some so called liberals (barbarians in reality) have done to Australia-

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/gympie-homophobe-to-appeal-lesbian-payout/2008/10/23/1224351419501.html

Just unbelievable to me that civilized western nations have been brought to this low. What did we fight Hitler for??
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October 25, 2008 12:41pm
lloydois

Gympie ‘aint civilised Redbaiter. It’s Deliverance territory, why the natives have no teeth. God fearin’ men have been known to disappear in Gympie and never return! Come to think of it you’d fit right in.
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October 25, 2008 12:50pm
Shunda barunda

Yes gazzaj, some how I think a B 52 dropping thousands of wet bus tickets would be a tad less effective in the war against terror!
This is hillerious, US liberals suggesting non voilent “weapons” while their enemys are flat stick making armaments and desperate for higher technology warfare.
Kiss your arse good bye western civilization!!!
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October 25, 2008 12:50pm
grumpyoldhori

PhilBest, Palin and war, amusing that she has stated the USA has to confront Russia over Georgia.
Yep, I can see the dumb cow now , basing US air power in Eastern Europe and then being so surprised when the Russians hit those air bases with tactical Nukes.
Would you want to bet that Vlad the impaler would not use tactical nukes ?

Palin is ignorant, not stupid, just ignorant, and how it shows.
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October 25, 2008 12:54pm
dad4justice

Vlad likes his finger at the ready steady on the nuke button. Oh he can’t wait.
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October 25, 2008 12:58pm
Shunda barunda

grumpyoldhori, I’ll make a bet right now that Obama, if he wins, makes one of the worst military blunders of the modern age .
His idealistic approach to foreign policy will cause 10 times the problems that Dubya has , mark my words.
He could even be the second DEMOCRAT to have to use nukes.
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October 25, 2008 1:01pm
Mr Dennis

This election is going to be scarily close. It will actually be decided by the votes in several key electorates:

Epsom (whether Act is in or not, should be guaranteed)

Mangere and East Coast Bays (whether the Family Party is in or not)

Tauranga and Rimutaka (whether NZ First is in or not)

Voters wanting a change of government in these five electorates need to vote sensibly. Even if you disagree with Act’s policies, but are in Epsom and want a change of government, Rodney Hide needs your vote. Even if you disagree with Family policies, but are in Mangere or ECB, Filipaina or Adams need your vote.

To keep NZ First out, as they will support Labour, Bridges (National) needs your vote in Tauranga, and Hipkins (Labour) needs your vote in Rimutaka (as the other candidate with the best chance of taking it). It doesn’t matter if you disagree with National or Labour’s polices – their total numbers will be decided by the party vote.

We must ensure National has as many friends as possible, and Labour has as few as possible, and that will take careful, strategic voting – and in some cases that may mean voting for someone whose policies you disagree with (such as in Rimutaka). Ah, the wonders of MMP never cease…
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October 25, 2008 1:02pm
Pascal

Remember the thread on National’s bail proposals and how they were going to treat criminals? I was reading this a few moments ago and it makes me so sad and so angry. That scum should never have been near kids, should never have been in breach of parole. The law and the lawmakers have failed this society.
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October 25, 2008 1:09pm
Lee

‘amusing that she has stated the USA has to confront Russia over Georgia.”

She’s right.

“I can see the dumb cow now”

Nice to see that good lefties are still crawling around in the gutter. What does it smell like down there?

“basing US air power in Eastern Europe”

Er…it’s already based there. Bit slow aren’t we.

“Palin is ignorant, not stupid, just ignorant, and how it shows.”

No, your ignorant AND stupid, and it shows.

But you are a typical New Zealand leftie. Your foreign policy consists of running like cowards from any bully who goes “boo!”.

Remember David Lange? What did he do when the French planned and executed a terrorist attack on New Zealand soil? Oh right, he sent the terrorists on a nice holiday to a Pacific Island and begged the French not to punish NZ economically.

Nice. 🙂
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October 25, 2008 1:10pm
Redbaiter

“it makes me so sad and so angry”

Yeah, me too. Poor poor child to have that done to her by adults responsible for her upbringing. Imagine the terror and pain and confusion when she was held head down in the boiling hot water. ..and leftist swine make a meal out of parents smacking their kids while they connive at disgusting events like this.
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October 25, 2008 1:15pm
Pascal

I just don’t understand it Redbaiter. My daughter turned 3 last Saturday. When I look at her and see how much she trusts and loves the people around her I just can’t imagine somebody wanting to hurt her. The fact that people can hurt kids or neglect them … it’s just wrong. It’s terribly, terribly fucking wrong. And it’s not a problem fixable through legislation. This is a fundamental failing of society and of people. More and more I’m starting to think we’ve lost our grip on what it means to be families, to be communities and to be looking out for each other.
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October 25, 2008 1:21pm
PhilBest

GrumpOldHori, your anti-Christian commie-sympathising friends in the media did exactly the same to Ronald Reagan as they are doing to Sarah Palin now.

I rest my case.
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October 25, 2008 1:23pm
Shunda barunda

And I can imagine Sue Bradford , Cindy Kiro and friends, sipping chardonnay thinking that they have done something to stop this abuse.
It makes me sick how deluded they are by their ideology.
These peole are very dangerous.
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October 25, 2008 1:29pm
Pascal

While I’m on this track, here is a theory. Governmental control over communities and their morality distances people from each other. The money that is taken from people to spend on improving conditions for others go through filters, it is diluted and at the end of it we are left with the illusion of good being done. But it is not real. We do not see the effects, we do not see the problems. All we’re left with is that partial sense that something has happened, but no real impression of what and why.

I contrast that with the work that the Christian Life Center does here in Auckland. There is money being channeled, the same as it is through the government. But the people who are working with it are hands on. When they go to a family to pray for them, or to take food, or to help out while the father is in hospital it is done by people in the church. That builds relationships. It reinforces the idea that we’re all in this together. It creates a community of people who all care for one another. And who really care for one another.

So how do we change this? How do we take this away from the government and give it back to the people?
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October 25, 2008 1:38pm
grumpyoldhori

Lee, typical lefty, yep I served in the army along with a lot of other lefties.
Amusing how the right wing types like Power are always so keen to send lefty troops to follow the yanks.
Of course he was far too important to serve himself.
In the army were you Lee , if not what is your excuse ?
A pimple on the arse ?
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October 25, 2008 1:41pm
Shunda barunda

“The money that is taken from people to spend on improving conditions for others go through filters, it is diluted and at the end of it we are left with the illusion of good being done.”

Or the left just redefine the problem to a more politically correct conclusion and the problem just magically goes away.
Once again, very dangerous people to have leading anything let alone a country!!
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October 25, 2008 1:45pm
Redbaiter

“More and more I’m starting to think we’ve lost our grip on what it means to be families, to be communities and to be looking out for each other.”

I’ve thought that for some time- its why I seek to revive Conservatism. I thought a post by Phil Best this morning from a Melanie Phillips article nutshelled it-

“don’t much care whether Palin believes in a hundred ridiculous things before breakfast — because what she stands for is a defence of bedrock western moral values against the nihilistic onslaught…….”
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October 25, 2008 1:46pm
grumpyoldhori

Shunda barunda, damn, you are saying that the crusade by the septics to Iraq has been a roaring success.
Maybe Obama will follow the Powell doctrine, only go to war if you must, and when you do use all the force you have.

Notice it is McCain who is saying the USA needs to attack both Russia and Iran, not very bright is he ?
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October 25, 2008 1:47pm
Shunda barunda

“Lee, typical lefty, yep I served in the army along with a lot of other lefties.”

So were you one of the “lefty” troops that turned and took off when the Serbs were raping and murdering little girls in Sebrenica, or one of the ones that stood by and watched while 800 thousand Rewandans were hacked to bits?
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October 25, 2008 1:49pm
Shunda barunda

“you are saying that the crusade by the septics to Iraq has been a roaring success.”

It wasn’t to start with but it is now, all that will stuff Iraq now is if some idiot president pulls out too soon, I wonder who that idot could be?
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October 25, 2008 1:52pm
grumpyoldhori

Shunda barunda, oh , are you saying that there was NZ troops in Sebrenica when all that was going on, now think real hard, I realise it is difficult for mouth breathers such as yourself, but do try .
NZ troops in Rwanda, damn ,what are they teaching in schools now ?
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October 25, 2008 1:58pm
grumpyoldhori

Shunda barunda, so like mcCain you want the yanks to stay for a hundred years.
Might I suggest you read a bit of history about Iraq, if the Brits could not stay in the twenties the yanks will not be able to.
Not to worry the yanks are good at bailing out off embassy roofs.
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October 25, 2008 2:02pm
Mr Dennis

Pascal:
Well said about welfare vs charity. Charity is far more efficient as it is more flexible and can cater for genuine needs rather than just handing out cash. The Family Party favours the delivery of welfare services through charities, community groups and churches for this reason.

I was asked in a debate a while back whether we would increase the money the Government gives to overseas aid. We had no policy on that, but I pointed out that what matters isn’t what money the government gives, but the total amount of money from both the State and private charity, and whether this money is being used efficiently or not. I used the example of a school in South Africa I know of that has a computer suite with a nice plaque saying “this suite was donated by Helen Clark” etc. The computers have aged now and many don’t work. My mother is in a charity helping this school, and approached the Prime Minister’s office to see if they could do anything to help maintain their investment in computers overseas. She was told no, they had given the money and that was that.

Private charity on the other hand would be more likely to look at the situation on the ground and work out what is the most efficient thing to do (maybe patch up all the old computers they can and install Linux on them to bring them up to date for cheap). The state wouldn’t think of this, they just give a donation and write on the books that they gave money overseas, aren’t they wonderful.

Unfortunately many people can’t see this, and I received a poor reception from the audience (strong Labour area though so that could explain some of it!). But charity is far more efficient than the state, and will probably do a lot more good for the same price. It is charities that really pick up the pieces and help the truly vulnurable – mainly Christian organisations such as the Salvation Army, even all our ambulances are run by St John’s Ambulance, which falls under the Christian charity the Order of St John.

We need a change of mindset in parliament, and to get that we need people in there who actually appreciate the value of charities.
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October 25, 2008 2:02pm
Shunda barunda

My point was that there is abundant evidence that left wing politics and left wing troops are about as usefull in a crisis as a bb gun.
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October 25, 2008 2:02pm
Lee

“you are saying that the crusade by the septics to Iraq has been a roaring success.”

The tyrant Hussein has been removed from power. Al-Qaeda in Iraq has been defeated. And Iraq now has a fledgling democracy. Looks like success to me.

“Notice it is McCain who is saying the USA needs to attack both Russia and Iran”

Bullshit. He has said that the US must take a strong diplomatic stance against Russia, not attack it. As to Iran, it is currently run by the Islamic equivalent of Hitler. I would have no problem taking him out.

No I have not served in the Army. So what? I tried signing up after Sept.11 in the vain hope they would drop the age restrictions, but they chose not to.

My father served in the US military for twenty years, and I have three relatives serving in Iraq and a cousin in Afghanistan. Wars are personal in my family.
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October 25, 2008 2:07pm
Shunda barunda

“so like mcCain you want the yanks to stay for a hundred years.”

So you like president “I’m in a jam” want Iran to be the dominant force in Iraq? cause thats the only alternative.

And by the way, what is wrong with the US having an indefinite relationship with Iraq? NZ has relationships with other countries that span over 100 years, whats the big problem?
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October 25, 2008 2:08pm
Lee

“like mcCain you want the yanks to stay for a hundred years.”

Again, bullshit. McCain’s position has always been that they should only stay as long as necessary. Given that the Iraqi military is rapidly improving in its ability to operate alone, US troops should be out within three years.
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October 25, 2008 2:11pm
grumpyoldhori

Shunda barunda, oh, left wing troops, kicked the yanks out of Vietnam, kicked the crap out of the Germans when they tried a holiday trip to Russia.

Funny that, I do not see any raving right wing types joining our army, or are they too important to be risked ?
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October 25, 2008 2:13pm
Owen McShane

Those debating the issue of a minority party being able to form a government under MMP seem not to recognise that Parliament and Goverment are different institutions.
The idea of MMP was to improve representation in the Parliament.
But the way it operates under our system means that representation in Government (around the Cabinet table is hugely distorted).
In a Republican style government you could have ten parties in the parliament (congress) but the majority President forms the Executive (the government).
IF we are to keep MMP under a Parliamentary system we need a rule which says only the Majority party can form the executive.
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October 25, 2008 2:17pm
Lee

More to the point hori, what has any of this got to do with you? Who Americans choose as their leader is their business, not yours. NZ gave up its right to have an opinion when you chose to listen to Soviet paid “peace” activists and withdraw from ANZUS.
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October 25, 2008 2:17pm
Shunda barunda

I was talking about the UN, that wonderful organisation that could have stopped the murder of at least 1.2 million people in the last 15 years.
And what do you do in the army grumps?
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October 25, 2008 2:19pm
Lee

“left wing troops, kicked the yanks out of Vietnam,”

Er…no.

The US won nine out of every ten battles that it fought with the VC. Your left wing soldiers got their asses kicked. America pulled out because the pro-Communist liberal-left and their media lackeys at home betrayed the country.
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October 25, 2008 2:21pm
Mr Dennis

Sorry to play devil’s advocate Lee, but that just means left-wing Americans kicked the yanks out of Vietnam rather than left-wing Vietnamese…
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October 25, 2008 2:25pm
3-coil

Test
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October 25, 2008 2:30pm
grumpyoldhori

Lee, LOL, I have a yank cousin, he is in Iraq right now at the age of fifty two, and he is one of those cowardly democrats as you right wing types put it.
Did not try to hard to join did you dear boy.
Or, do you have a Rush problem on your arse ?

Strange how you yanks wanted the Georgians to fight in Iraq, but when the Russians invaded Georgia you did not send any troops to help them, why was that ?
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October 25, 2008 2:34pm
grumpyoldhori

Shunda barunda, What did I do, I did not work hard enough at school so I carried a rifle.
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October 25, 2008 2:36pm
stephen

“America pulled out because the pro-Communist liberal-left and their media lackeys at home betrayed the country.”

I suspect the 58,000 dead americans and the 300,000 wounded americans had something to do with all that…
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October 25, 2008 2:41pm
grumpyoldhori

Lee, no longer in Anzus, so why was that female offsider of dubya’s in NZ saying how we were still an ally of the yanks.
Need our SAS again do you , you know those cowardly types as you put it ?
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October 25, 2008 2:41pm
GJ

Mr Dennis said:

“Voters wanting a change of government in these five electorates need to vote sensibly. Even if you disagree with Act’s policies, but are in Epsom and want a change of government, Rodney Hide needs your vote. Even if you disagree with Family policies, but are in Mangere or ECB, Filipaina or Adams needs your vote”.

Well said: A small percentage of voters in these key electorates have the power to set a decent government in place.

The formation of government will be greatly influenced by the results from these electorates.

But do the voters really understand this yet? I think they are certainly beginning to come around.

I will go even further and say if Epsom elects Hyde and East Coast Bays elects Adams we WILL have a National led government. If you have friends or families in these two electorates make sure that they clearly understand this!
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October 25, 2008 2:48pm
Owen McShane

Doesn’t the grumpy Hori know that Heather Roy, the other ACT MP, recently joined the Territorials?

ACT is not a left wing party.
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October 25, 2008 2:53pm
grumpyoldhori

Owen, Funny how ACT believe in socialism is it not, if they do not believe in socialism why are they wanting to form a coalition with Labour lite ?
ACT not left wing, go to a university and ask so called ACT supporters if they should pay the full cost of their education.
Oh, and no cheap loans, bright enough for university, they should be bright enough to pay the full cost.
After all my nephews did not get handed a wad of money when they started their business, they went to the bank, why should students sitting inside ivy walls be treated differently ?
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October 25, 2008 3:10pm
Duxton

Grumpioldhori @ 1.41pm: What a ridiculous post.

If anyone are guilty of draft dodging while sending their opponents away, it is the Left.

Look at Norman Kirk. He dodged the draft during WW2, to stay at home and earn danger money and double time working on the Auckland wharves, while his fellow-countrymen were being shot at in North Africa and Europe. What a scum bag.

Actually, while we’re on the subject of draft dodgers, how did Helen Clark’s father manage to avoid service during WW2? Did he lie about his age? Or, like Kirk, was he able to call on a dishonest doctor?
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October 25, 2008 3:24pm
democracymum

This front page story in the Herald should be compulsory reading by anyone thinking about how to cast their vote in this election

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10539399

It is absolutely sickening! Is this the new New Zealand?

How dare SUE BRADFORD try and criminalize good NZ parents and at the same
time DO NOTHING about these monsters!

The MAORI PARTY bloody well need to step up and own this sort of abuse,
instead of worrying about whether they can get in power in the next election
so that they can make white kids speak Maori in schools.

And ALL NEW ZEALANDERS need to decide what matters most in this election

Otherwise, this beautiful little girl, this mother of 3, Austin Hemmings and all the
other victims of this governments policies will have died in vain.

It is time to take back our country along with our democracy!
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October 25, 2008 3:29pm
grumpyoldhori

Duxton, yep some pakeha did miss the draft, married men mainly, so would you like a list of all the Nat types who dodged the draft by being married with kids ?

Oh, most Maori are left wing, how many dodged the draft ?
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October 25, 2008 3:51pm
Banana Llama

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10539399

Thats disgusting but i don’t know what is worse, the fact it happened or that it is becoming more common as time marches on.

I sincerely hope we get a new Government this election rather than the same tired old lying hacks that are intent on keeping their noses in the public trough and creating an exodus not seen in this country for generations.
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October 25, 2008 3:51pm
WraithX

grumpyoldhori said: “ACT not left wing, go to a university and ask so called ACT supporters if they should pay the full cost of their education.”

All of the ACT on Campus guys I know definitely think they should pay the full cost of their education – it is a fundamental principle of the ACT party – why would they be campaigning for ACT if they didn’t follow its principles?
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October 25, 2008 3:51pm
Lee

grumpy,

“Lee, LOL, I have a yank cousin, he is in Iraq right now at the age of fifty two,”

he would have joined prior to passing the upper age mark. Once you reach a certain age it is impossible to get in.

“Did not try to hard to join did you dear boy.”

I tried three times in fact, and did everything I possibly could, including trying to get some strings pulled. But thats beside the point. I do not need to justify myself to you bud.

“and he is one of those cowardly democrats”

I have never accused the Dem’s of being cowards, especially those who serve. If Joe Lieberman was running for the Dem’s I would vote for him. I do think some of the other Dem leadership are cowards, but thats a different issue.

“why was that female offsider of dubya’s in NZ saying how we were still an ally”

She was being polite, something you seem to have a problem with.

“Need our SAS again do you , you know those cowardly types as you put it ?”

Not really, no. Nice to have them though.

And I said the Labour/Green left are cowards, and they are. I never mentioned the SAS and never would. Unlike you I know when its proper to respect people. You seem to have a problem with that, and with truth, and you have a habit of putting words into peoples mouths. That does not say much for your ability to hold a rational debate.
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October 25, 2008 4:01pm
Lee

“Oh, most Maori are left wing,”

Hasn’t done them any good has it. Their thanks from Labour for their misplaced loyalty was to have their property rights violated with the seabed and foreshore issue. Then when Tariana rightly pulled out of Labour over the issue Helen spat on her and all Maori and called them “haters and wreckers”.

Nice.

You do understand what the definition of constantly banging your head against a brick wall is right? Or do you like being repeatedly fucked over by the Clark regime?

And they may still be a minority, but a growing number of Maori are not left wing. I know quite few myself. You don’t have the right to speak for them.
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October 25, 2008 4:09pm
Lee

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10539399

Oh yeah, the anti-smacking bill has really made a difference.
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October 25, 2008 4:18pm
jackp

I think the reason the United States was in Vietnam wasn’t because of the left or right. It was the government contracts that went into the billions. $$$$ These corporations had the politicians in their hands as the same today. You folks can argue all you want but it was about power in the United States. It took the demonstrations and the Kent State student killings by the National Guards ordered by Nixon to change the course of US involvement in Vietnam. When the US pulled out, South Vietnam collapsed within months. And don’t forget, either left or right, Kiwis were in that war. So, what brought the whole mess was power and money. I look at this present government and power is blinding this government. When I read about how criminals can “torture” little girls and yet still get bail, it makes me cry because that prick killed a innocent woman who had a family herself all because of $$$ SAVING MONEY
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October 25, 2008 4:24pm
jackp

I didn’t edit it right above. This Labour government wants as few criminals in jail as possible to save money and to keep the prison rate low for their statistics. I blame Helen Clark because she trading money and statistics for lives.
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October 25, 2008 4:31pm
ianmac

I have read all the posts here. There is a thread running through “that the Govt is responsible for all the ills of society.” For example I do not see the connection between Helen Clark and say the nasty chap who destroyed the little girl and the woman in her car.
Would someone please explain the connection?
Would someone explain how these horrible events will cease with a change in Govt?
Will someone explain how the repeal of S59 which had given a legal excuse to those who hit their kids with sticks or fists etc made things worse?
Does anyone think there is any chance that NZ will reinstate this law?
You see after reading everything all I have are questions. Damned if I know. Help.
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October 25, 2008 4:42pm
grumpyoldhori

Lee, my cousin joined the Guard at the age of 44, if he could do that no reason why you could not do the same.
Oh, Labour/Green cowards, 95 % of the 28th were Labour voters, so that made them cowards ?
If you are so keen on the crusade to Iraq, what are you doing in NZ, why are you not in the states joining the Guard ?
After all there is still Afghanistan to be saved from communism.
Care to name all those horis who believe the average working bloke should do worse under National than some MP in the way of money in pay packet.
And please, not bloody Henare whom they wheel around the Nat branches.
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October 25, 2008 4:53pm
Duxton

“95 % of the 28th were Labour voters”

The Maori Battalion! hah!
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October 25, 2008 5:02pm
Duxton

grumpy – perhaps you might care to read your 4.53 post again. It doesn’t make sense. In fact, it sounds unhinged.
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October 25, 2008 5:05pm
Lee

Grumpy,

Firstly,

“Oh, Labour/Green cowards,”

I am talking about the politicos and the activists, not ordinary voters.

And

Upper age limits in the US military:

Active Army – 42
Army Reserves (Including National Guard) – 42
Active Air Force – 27
Air Force Reserve (inlcuding National Guard) – 34
Active Navy – 34
Naval Reserves – 39
Active Marines – 28
Marine Corps Reserve – 29
Active Duty Coast Guard – Age 27. Note: up to age 32 for those selected to attend A-school directly upon enlistment (this is mostly for prior service).
Coast Guard Reserves – Age 39.

The National guard will only take people over 42 IF they have prior service experiance.
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October 25, 2008 5:20pm
Lee

Beginning to wonder about you hori.
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October 25, 2008 5:24pm
Lee

“what are you doing in NZ”

I’m married to a kiwi, and I’m too old, which I have explained. Beyond that, It’s my business bud, not yours.

PS, the problem in Afghanistan is al-Qaeda.

Moron,
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October 25, 2008 5:30pm
grumpyoldhori

Lee, same, so as a visitor to NZ why should you take part in our political process ?
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October 25, 2008 5:31pm
Hagues

Lee “Firstly”

If the good Sir Bob was here he would tell you that “firstly” is very poor grammer, the correct word is “first.” I’ve seen him do it to interviewers on live TV and heard it on the Radio 🙂

Speaking of Sir Bob, I wonder if he is still planning an ad campain to breach the EFA? I certainly hope so.
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October 25, 2008 5:33pm
Lee

“so as a visitor to NZ why should you take part in our political process ?”

I pay taxes. And I have lived here for a long time. I’m hardly a “visitor”.

Hagues,

thanks for the correction. My grammer sux 🙂
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October 25, 2008 5:37pm
Duxton

grumpy, this might help:

http://www.everybody.co.nz/page-7ca73d6c-4fc1-4d33-892c-8fd73bd1d382.aspx
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October 25, 2008 5:43pm
southnat

“Argentina’s Property Grab”
Thanks Philbest, The heleban may have to consider a similar strategy for Kiwi Saver – keep the 4% rolling in!
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October 25, 2008 5:53pm
Pascal

I’ve just realized when it is a good time to turn off the news. When Francesca Mould opens her mouth.
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October 25, 2008 6:02pm
kaye

Much has been said about John Key’s humble background, but I’ve seen little commentary on his accompanying accent.

I find it interesting that this is a man who generated a personal fortune; he’s done business with the rich and powerful; and he lived in the UK and elsewhere for some time, but has still retained his good-ol’ Kiwi accent. I love his ‘Newzild’ and his ‘gunna’. It would been easy for him to adopt a ‘better sounding’ accent, and many do, but it makes him more natural.

In contrast, we have Cullen with his stuck-up accent: the one he acquired at Christs College whilst ‘ripping off the farmers’. Socialists are so classy.
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October 25, 2008 6:03pm
southnat

I agree Kaye. Dr Cullen always sounds like he’s had too many Pinot’s at Lunch Time.
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October 25, 2008 6:08pm
PhilBest

Pascal (1678) Vote: Add rating9 Subtract rating 0 Says:
October 25th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

“While I’m on this track, here is a theory. Governmental control over communities and their morality distances people from each other. The money that is taken from people to spend on improving conditions for others go through filters, it is diluted and at the end of it we are left with the illusion of good being done. But it is not real. We do not see the effects, we do not see the problems. All we’re left with is that partial sense that something has happened, but no real impression of what and why…..”

Pascal, I have been saying for a while that Roger Douglas pointed out 20 years ago that a solo mum with 3 kids is getting on average, 100GRAND of taxpayers money spent on her per year (sorry, that was 20 years ago), yet lives around a 30 grand quality of life. Income redistributive socialism is frankly not sustainable when all the redistribution is in government provided services etc; Roger Douglas actually advocated just GIVING PEOPLE THE MONEY….! The vilification he has had from the socialists; you know the litany, crony and stooge of the greedy rich and big business, yada, yada……..you know what that tells us about the socialists? Actually giving a solo mum the 100 grand a year instead of 30 grand worth of state provided services is deeply unpalatable to them? Why? Is it anything to do with keeping people dependent and never thinking or acting for themselves?
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October 25, 2008 6:20pm
expat

kaye Says: October 25th, 2008 at 6:03 pm

“…we have Cullen (who went to) Christs College”

the academically dreamed of socialists paradise that was made possible for 9 years through massive gummint expenditure, dumb luck and a global credit and asset boom.
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October 25, 2008 6:26pm
PhilBest

GrumpyOldHori, I have a lot of respect for an old soldier if that is what you really are. But you are terribly mixed up in the lessons you have taken out of history.

I have every sympathy for Maori and any and all NZ low income workers paying the highest tax rates in the world on low income workers, while rich pricks kids get subsidised Uni education.

It is a fact that socialist governments everywhere end up making the worst off in society worse off than they would have been in a truly free society.

I have every sympathy for Maori when they get criticised for having greater rates of violent crime and baby bashing and the like. The Maori Battalion were the REAL Maoris and the happy, full-employment Maoris of the 1950’s who got married and had kids and stuck together, were the REAL Maoris. The DPB has destroyed the traditional Maori family quickest, but society as a whole is on its way down the same slippery slope. What we have today, is a Maoridom that is the canary in the coalmine of social engineering; for whatever reason, their culture is more vulnerable, nevertheless I believe we will see the same problems endemic in Pakeha as well if the social engineering continues.

Do you see any truth in what I am saying?
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October 25, 2008 6:37pm
PhilBest

The following are causes of increasing inequality.

Breakdown in traditional marriage. The obvious thing is the disadvantage to children brought up without a father, or with a string of perverse male role models in their lives. But also, marriage across socio-economic groups, and subsequent “inheritance”, were powerful reducers of inequality.

Provision of services, etc, with public money, that primarily benefit the wealthy, and the neglect of infrastructure that was a greater benefit, proportionally, to lower income earners. The neglect of roads, and time wasted in congestion, has a disparate impact on the poor. The subsidy of cultural centres and art galleries benefits the wealthy at the expense of the poor. New Orleans was a classic illustration of the consequences of concentration on trendy cultural vibrancy and the like, by the local administration, at the expense of vital infrastructure that was fought tooth and nail by chardonnay greenies and NIMBY-ists.

The “conservation” of land, and restrictive zoning, has a disparate impact on the poor, on the young and those who do not own properties, in favour of the more well-off who maintain their nice views and surroundings, while property values escalate out of reach of all who are not already on the gravy boat. An excellent article in this respect, is “Green Disparate Impact”, by Thomas Sowell. (The “poor” population of California is actually being driven out of state by escalating property values).

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/01/15/green_disparate_impact?page=full&comments=true

Increases in regulatory expense, like RMA costs, and the costs of obtaining licenses for commercial activity and the like, tend to inequality. A James Wattie could start up a food canning business in his garage. DEFINITELY NO LONGER.
This phenomenon is well covered in the book “The Mystery of Capital” by Hernando DeSoto. Interestingly, well-established larger businesses like this phenomenon, as it keeps competition to a minimum, hence the little-publicised support of many wealthy people for regulatory, socialist politics. Incidentally, that is not “Capitalism” although the cunning socialists “spin” the issues so it gets blamed on “Capitalism”. (The correct term is Socialist Parasitism). More recommended reading: “Intellectual Class Wars”, by David Horowitz, and “Scratching By: How Government Creates Poverty as We Know it”, By Charles Johnson:

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=8204

The subsidy of tertiary education with public money. Tertiary education itself, tends to increase inequality. To use taxes, which must remain necessarily high on low income earners, to subsidise this, only worsens the situation. An outright free market situation with all students paying fees, and a broader use of direct student-based “scholarships”, would actually produce less inequality than the system we have now, and would produce much better results in terms of relevant qualifications. I suggest too, that many of the poorer folk who do make it to Uni under the current system, could be tending to make poorer choices of qualification, which would be eliminated by better guidance under a scholarship-based system especially scholarships funded by private enterprise which knows of its needs for people with certain qualifications.

The trend for wealthier people to have children later in life, and have less of them, while poorer people still have larger families, tend to start earlier, and the worst of all are the early-starting solos.
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October 25, 2008 6:40pm
expat

GOH – snap out of it code monkey!
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October 25, 2008 6:47pm
PhilBest

GrumpyOldHori, was any war worth fighting in your opinion? Was it worth keeping the Communists out of Malaysia in the 1950’s? Might there have been a few million dead Malaysians, like there were Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians; otherwise?

Would there not have been many times LESS dead Vietnamese and possibly those other races, had the USA AND THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD just kept fighting in Vietnam?

Would Russia have survived against Hitler without SOME help from Britain and the US?

Would it have been preferable if Russia had not been strong enough to conquer all the nations of Eastern Europe in 1945 and keep them in several decades of worse slavery than Adolf Hitler might have been?

Do you LIKE the idea of an Iraq as free and prosperous in the year 2050, as Germany and Japan are today? Just take that question purely on the face of it, don’t sidetrack into whether that is “possible” or likely or not. Almost all dreams of US Presidents concerning the nations they have liberated have been mocked at the time.
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October 25, 2008 6:48pm
PhilBest

Redbaiter, you have been posting some very interesting links thank you. What are your regular sources? I look at the Wall Street Journal and Frontpage Magazine every day, Human Events and the Weekly Standard once a week (Pat Buchanan, Ann Coulter). If you have another recommendation, I’d value it.

Redbaiter (4053) Vote: Add rating 3 Subtract rating 2 Says:
October 25th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

“The media is taking a frightful gamble on this. If their ploy does not work, they are going to be six feet under several tons of shame and odium for years to come. ”

“They will be anyway- they seem to be so intent on their mission to elect Obama they are completely overlooking the fact that around 50% of their customers, even if Obama loses, are going to be highly pissed off. If he wins, they are going to be enraged. I wouldn’t want to be ajournalist for the next few years- in a complete turn about to the light shiners they should be, they have proven themsleves to be partisan scum in bed with tyrants frauds and crooks and at the same time as they viciously attack Sarah Palin with fake news, are determined to downplay any real news that might damage the Obama vote.

I read another good piece this morning that addresses the the same issue you raise……” (thanks for that link, Redbaiter)

ALSO on this point:

OCTOBER 24, 2008 WALL STREET JOURNAL

43% Isn’t Nothing By Peggy Noonan

“It’s all going fast, the whirl of images on the screen, words on the page, data flashing by. Barack Obama’s up here, his lead now in the double digits there. In green rooms on book interviews, I see quietly angry former Reagan staffers, defensive former Bush aides, harried McCain spokesmen, and almost-jaunty Democrats. A network correspondent with a reputation for fairness—no one knows how this reporter votes—came by one day and shrugged with frustration. Everyone asks me about media bias. Of course the media loves Obama, but I can’t say it. I didn’t take notes, but I think that’s word for word. Soon after, I received an email from a different journalist who referred, in passing, to where many journalists stand.

Neither of these people is conservative. When nonconservatives see the Obama love, and refer to it without prompting, the Obama love is deep. Remember how John McCain used to refer jokingly to the press as “my base”? Now it’s part of Mr. Obama’s. But if Mr. McCain loses, the reason will not be press bias.

The press knows who the press is for, and it isn’t generally the one to the right. This has been true all my life. What has also been true is that the Republican had to get around it with the truth of his stands, the force of his arguments, the un-ignorability of his words, the power of his presence. You have to go over the head of the interpreters and gently seize the country by its lapels. Mr. McCain never got much over their heads. This is not because they’re so tall. His campaign was not so much about meaning as it was, in the end, a series of moments—a good interview with Rick Warren, a good convention, Joe the Plumber . . .

And yet: It’s not over. For one thing, Mr. McCain has got to be reading Steven Stark’s piece in the Boston Phoenix, which imagines the forces that could produce a McCain upset. What if Mr. Obama underperforms on Election Day, just as he did in the final primaries with Hillary Clinton? What if senior citizens turn out in record numbers and vote for the older guy, and the financial crisis seems to fade, and Mr. McCain finds new grounding on the issue of taxes, and the Obama campaign undermines itself with premature triumphalism . . .

Mr. McCain has endless faith in his ability to come back. He’s been doing it for 40 years, from Vietnam, where, with the injuries he’d sustained and the torture he experienced, he might have died, was likely to die, and yet survived, to exactly a year ago, when he was out of money and out of luck. And then he won New Hampshire. When he says, “We got ’em where we want ’em” he must mean: They think they are looking at a corpse. No one in politics has so repeatedly relished coming back from the dead.

Not a single poll has Mr. McCain ahead. The RealClearPolitics average of national polls as I write, rounded off, is Obama 50%, McCain 43%. Actually Mr. Obama has 50.1%, and if that is true and holds, it would make him the first Democratic presidential nominee since Jimmy Carter to break 50%. But I find myself thinking of what that 43% means. It’s a big number, considering that this is the worst Republican year in generations. Amid two wars, a deep economic crisis, a fractured base, too much cynicism, and a campaign with the wind not at its back but head on in its face—with all of that working against Mr. McCain, 43% of the American people say, right now, in these polls, they are for him. And there are a significant number of undecideds. Four years ago about 122 million people voted. Forty-three percent of 122 million is 52 million people, more or less. A huge group, one too varied to generalize about because it includes flinty elderly Republicans from New England, home-schooling mothers in Ohio, libertarianish Republicans in Colorado, suburban patriots outside the big cities, and many others.

They are the beating heart of conservatism, and to watch most television is to forget they exist, for they are not shown much, except at rallies. But they are there, and this is a center-right nation, and many of them have been pushing hard against the age for 40 years now, and more. For some time they have sensed that something large and stable is being swept away, maybe has been swept away, and yet you still have to fight for it. They will not give up without a fight, and they will make their way to the polls.

And they will be a rock-hard challenge to Mr. Obama if he wins.

This is the thing: If Mr. Obama wins, and governs as a moderate liberal, not veering left, not seeming to be the cap that pops off a kettle that’s been boiling for eight years, but governs to a degree, at least in general approach, as Bill Clinton did—as a moderate Democrat well aware of the terrain—he may know some success. And he may be able to tamp down the insistence of the long-simmering left by the force of his own popularity, which will grow once he is president among grateful Democrats, and others. But if he goes left—if it comes to seem as if the attractive, dark-haired man has torn open his shirt to reveal a huge S, not for Superman but for Socialist, if he jumps toward reforms such as a speech-limiting new Fairness Doctrine, that won’t yield success. It will yield trouble, and unneeded domestic arguments. We have enough needed ones…..”
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October 25, 2008 6:55pm
grumpyoldhori

So Lee we have established you got into NZ on your wife’s passport, and you now believe you are an expert on the NZ political process.

Have you read the Ugly American, do it may help.
Oh, by the way dear boy my old dad ,was a Labour party official in the Maori branch.
So you believe a bloke who was wounded twice was a coward ?
If you are going to call people in political parties cowards, try it on face to face,
I suggest that big hori in the Labour party.
Yep,just a visitor.
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October 25, 2008 6:59pm
Lee

“So Lee we have established you got into NZ on your wife’s passport”

Nope. 🙂

“Have you read the Ugly American, do it may help.”

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

“Oh, by the way dear boy my old dad ,was a Labour party official in the Maori branch.”

So?

“So you believe a bloke who was wounded twice was a coward ?”

No. I think he was a decent man and soldier who deserves respect.

But even you should now that the old Labour and the new Labour are very different beasts. The old Labour was a genuine working persons party. The New Labour is a party of academic upper class GUTLESS white liberals who have spent the last nine years shafting Maori. Thats why the Maori Party exists.

“If you are going to call people in political parties cowards, try it on face to face”

Anytime bud. 🙂

PS. This is a blog by and for people on the right. DPF is a National man. If your going to get whiny and offended when someone has a go at Labour then why bother coming here?

Get a life.

I will continue to express my opinions. If you don’t like it, TOUGH. If your stupid enough to support Labour OR support the MP going with Labour then your a fool looking to have Auntie Helen fuck you over yet again. DUH.

Repeat after me hori. FORESHORE AND SEABED. HATERS AND WRECKERS.
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October 25, 2008 7:15pm
grumpyoldhori

PhilBest, I have no problem with a market economy and a flat tax regime at all.
As long as we have a pure market economy with no farmers getting a handout of taxpayer money when they get a bit of damp on their land.
No corporate welfare for any companies, all university students to pay the full cost of their education, no bailout of banks, if they fail so be it.

But,you will notice that the Nats talk a great talk about how bad socialism is, but at the same time they are telling students that they can keep their interest free loans.

As for Maori, so the roads were paved with gold for Maori after the war with all that equality.
Would your idea of equality be a ex-serviceman being told, a rehab farm is not for the likes of you, or being asked to leave the lounge bar of a hotel because of his skin tone ?
You may want to remove those rose coloured specs.
Might I suggest reading General Kippenberger.
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October 25, 2008 7:20pm
Lee

Oh and don’t threaten me hori. Big mistake. If your going to piss all over a decent patriotic mother of five like Sarah Palin then whine like a child when someone stands up to you your a pathetic hypocrite displaying typical lefty double standards.

If your to gutless to take it, then don’t shovel it.

Do you have the two braincells necessary to understand that?
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October 25, 2008 7:21pm
Lee

“I have no problem with a market economy and a flat tax regime at all.
As long as we have a pure market economy with no farmers getting a handout of taxpayer money when they get a bit of damp on their land.
No corporate welfare for any companies, all university students to pay the full cost of their education, no bailout of banks, if they fail so be it.”

Damn, now we agree on something!
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October 25, 2008 7:24pm
Lee

National is just a temporary means to an end.
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October 25, 2008 7:25pm
redeye

“Whose Side Are You On, Comrade”

WASHINGTON–Conservatives are at each other’s throats, and here’s what’s revealing about how divided they are: The critics of John McCain and the critics of Sarah Palin represent entirely different camps.

Skeptical social conservatives are precisely the people McCain was trying to mollify by picking Palin as his running mate. These include the faithful of the religious right who remember McCain as their enemy in 2000, and parts of the gun crowd who always saw McCain as soft on their issues.

That McCain felt a need to make such an outlandishly risky choice speaks to how insecure his hold was on the core Republican vote. A candidate is supposed to rally the base during the primaries and reach out to the middle at election time. McCain got it backward, and it’s hurting him.

A Pew Research Center survey this week found that among political independents, Palin’s unfavorable rating has almost doubled since mid-September, from 27 percent to 50 percent. Whatever enthusiasm Palin inspired among conservative ideologues is more than offset by middle-of-the road defections.

Even on the right, she hasn’t done the job. In The Washington Post tracking poll released on Thursday, Barack Obama drew 22 percent of the vote from self-described conservatives. That’s a seven-point gain on John Kerry’s 2004 conservative share.

Yet the pro-Palin right is still impatient with McCain for not being tough enough–as if he has not run one of the most negative campaigns in recent history. This camp believes that if McCain only shouted the names “Bill Ayers” and “Jeremiah Wright” at the top of his lungs, the whole election would turn around.

Then there are those conservatives who see Palin as a “fatal cancer to the Republican Party” (David Brooks), as someone who “doesn’t know enough about economics and foreign policy to make Americans comfortable with a President Palin” (Kathleen Parker), as “a symptom and expression of a new vulgarization in American politics” (Peggy Noonan).

These conservatives deserve credit for acknowledging how ill-suited Palin is for high office. But what we see here is a deep split between parts of the conservative elite and much of the rank and file.

For years, many of the elite conservatives were happy to harvest the votes of devout Christians and gun owners by waging a phony class war against “liberal elitists” and “leftist intellectuals.” Suddenly, the conservative writers are discovering that the very anti-intellectualism their side courted and encouraged has begun to consume their movement.

The cause of Edmund Burke, Leo Strauss, Robert Nisbet and William F. Buckley Jr. is now in the hands of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity–and Sarah Palin. Reason has been overwhelmed by propaganda, ideas by slogans, learned manifestoes by direct-mail hit pieces.

And then there is George W. Bush. Conservatives once hailed him for creating an enduring majority on behalf of their cause. Now, they cast him as the goat in their story of decline.

The conservative critique of Bush is a familiar rant against his advocacy of big government and huge deficits–now supplemented by a horror over his embrace of actual socialism with the partial nationalization of big banks. And, yes, a fair number of conservatives were never wild about the adventure in Iraq.

Things are so bad that the internecine warriors on the right have begun copying the rhetoric of the old left. In a Washington Times column this week upbraiding dissidents such as Brooks and Noonan, Tony Blankley, the conservative writer and activist, fell back on an old left slogan, asking them: “Whose side are you on, comrade?”

This is a revelatory question. It arises when a movement has lost its sense of solidarity and purpose, when the “sides” are no longer clear. There is no unified “right” or “center-right,” which is why we are no longer a conservative country, if we ever were.

Conservatism has finally crashed on problems for which its doctrines offered no solutions (the economic crisis foremost among them, thus Bush’s apostasy) and on its refusal to acknowledge that the “real America” is more diverse, pragmatic and culturally moderate than the place described in Palin’s speeches or imagined by the right-wing talk show hosts.

Conservatives came to believe that if they repeated phrases such as “Joe the Plumber” often enough, they could persuade working-class voters that policies tilted heavily in favor of the very privileged were actually designed with Joe in mind.

It isn’t working anymore. No wonder conservatives are turning on each other so ferociously.

Source:http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=00c06f55-a5e0-48fb-a5e1-c3978ba94600
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October 25, 2008 7:27pm
Lee

“Conservatism has finally crashed on problems for which its doctrines offered no solutions (the economic crisis foremost among them”

Partly true, partly false. Pity about the Dems passing those branless socialist laws requiring lending institutions to give loans to people with bad credit histories. Oh well. 🙂

Obama and the Dems certainly do not have the answers either.

But these folks do…

http://mises.org/story/3128

Oh, and just for some context, the New Republic from which this article is taken is and always has been a pro-Democrat mag.
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October 25, 2008 7:35pm