General Debate 17 November 2008

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reid

The upcoming handwringing, wailing and general hysteria over the revision of the ETS makes it important to gather ammo – here’s a Telegraph article that has links to two leading skeptic sites and exposes errors in the data used by one of Gore’s bestest AGW buddies to justify the hysteria.

“…whether, on the basis of such evidence, it is wise for the world’s governments to embark on some of the most costly economic measures ever proposed, to remedy a problem which may actually not exist, is a question which should give us all pause for thought.”
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November 17, 2008 8:19am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

The ETS should just be scrapped. Looks like it will be kept on endless hold instead. Something for the next government to deal with 😆
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November 17, 2008 8:32am
KiwiGreg

The “hold’ also looks to be maintaining the forced (and uncompensated) destruction of property rights of pre-1990 forestry owners.
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November 17, 2008 8:34am
dad4justice

NZ should ditch the ETS, because it’s just hip science crapaloa and concentrate on more important issues.
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November 17, 2008 8:35am
KiwiGreg

There is the small matter of the obligations the former government signed the country up to under the Kyoto Treaty. You cant just break international treaties without there being some consequences.
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November 17, 2008 8:37am
getstaffed

From Stuff:

The swanky Auckland mansion of Prime Minister-elect John Key is giving the Diplomatic Protection Squad security headaches because it is so big, and a dwelling may have to be built on his grounds to give the bodyguards a permanent home.

Protection squad staff are always outside when a prime minister is home. DPS staff rented a house beside Helen Clark’s Mt Eden villa during her reign, but that’s not really an option in Key’s well-heeled neighbourhood. His $7 million luxury Parnell house, which features a pool, tennis court, spa, marble floors and seven living areas, sprawls over half an acre, meaning DPS staff are a long way from him if they are stationed outside the gate. And his neighbours are not keen to vacate their homes.

Pathetic tall-poppy, hand-wringing, envy media in full force. What a sad pack of losers.

Fairfax: You are part of the reason that NZ is in the mess it’s in.
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November 17, 2008 8:41am
homepaddock

The deal between National and the Maori Party recognises that larger electortes need more staff so MPs in general electorates covering more than 20,000 kms and all Maori electorates will get another out of parliament staff member.

Sounds good – but Tamaki Makaurau is only 730 sq kms so it will get another staffer and the 23 general electorates from Hellensville at 865 to East Coast at 13, 649 won’t: http://homepaddock.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/inequities-over-staff-increases/
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November 17, 2008 8:42am
Adolf Fiinkensein

KiwiGreg. Oh well, we’ll just have to go to war over it.
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November 17, 2008 8:42am
bustedblonde

Sigh, Kiwiblog is banned from MOH today – Maybe they think your blog on gaming means you indulge in risky practices. !

I have requested it be unblocked – will report back….
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November 17, 2008 8:44am
Ford Nucleon

Getstaffed – agree completely. And the words “SO BIG” and “SO EXCLUSIVE” were in capitals for emphasis.
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November 17, 2008 8:45am
reid

I just want to throw an idea out here re: Defence industry manufacturing.

We all know there’s a national aversion to pointy things, and the public, regretably, will never tolerate an industry devoted to things such as for example, Metalstorm manufactures in Australia.

However defence products will continue to be in very high demand in the coming years and all the customers all have deep pockets. It’s a perfect industry to break into.

As I’ve previously mentioned, Ireland became the Celtic Tiger by targetting two specific industries: IT and Bioinformatics. They configured their education sector accordingly and setup low-tax regions which encouraged multi-nationals to setup R&D centres in those regions. This saw it become the largest software exporter in the world, within a decade.

Why can’t we do the same thing here, but target defence industries? Because of the aversion to pointy things, what about focusing on defensive systems. Things like synsthetic aperture radar, anti-missile missile systems, ejection seats, bullet-proof vests, CIWS weapons, the list is endless. The point is, our manufacturing and science industries are almost entirely focused on food. Fine, do nothing to upset that. However we need some kind of industry to encourage engineering – 70% of China’s graduates are engineers. We need less lawyers and more engineers.
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November 17, 2008 8:47am
democracymum

Knock Knock

Who’s there?

Helen..

Helen who?
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November 17, 2008 8:49am
dime

reid – i fully agree! call it “kiwi defence”? heh seriously though, theres always demand for this sorta stuff.

plus ya get the added bonus of the greens shitting bricks… problem is – defence companies run a risk of being shut down next time there is a change in govt.
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November 17, 2008 9:08am
dime

how great was newstalk zb this mornig! no Helen! no spiteful nasty old woman winding me up before work… just a cool, relaxed key!

i thought it was a small gaff when he said “we have taken some risks with our cabinet”… risk probably wasnt the best word.. but hey, its still the honeymoon! say what ya like john
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November 17, 2008 9:10am
democracymum

dime

I agree!

On breakfast TV this morning John even used metaphors of marriage and baking to describe the new government. All with good humour and insight.
I can’t but help thinking that the ads during the campaign were a real reflection of the both Helen and John
One nasty and vitriolic,
The other (PM elect how nice that sounds!) Friendly, good natured, and consultative.

What a change and hats off to the NZ public for spotting the difference!
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November 17, 2008 9:16am
PaulL

Ignoring our Kyoto obligations actually has no consequences at all. Notice that every other signatory has done exactly that – we’re the only idiots who thought it was anything more than a feel good stick to beat the Americans with. Notice the Germans backing down on their ETS when it got to the point where it might actually impact something.

I’m quite hopeful of the words that went into the ACT agreement – the consideration of a carbon tax scheme. That would be enormously more workable.
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November 17, 2008 9:25am
alex Masterley

Dime, I turned on the radio at my usual 6am to hear the news etc. with my wifes agreement it got turned off a soon as we realised that it was Susan Wood sitting in pauls soon to be vacated hot seat. Can’t stand her so didn’t listen to her interview Mr Key. Still the way he has done the business is very impressive. What I am waiting to see is how he deals with those ministers who do not cut the mustard.
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November 17, 2008 9:32am
reid

“defence companies run a risk of being shut down next time there is a change in govt.”

Yeah that is an issue isn’t it Dime. I wonder how the Irish dealt with getting cross-party support for their policies. Selecting bioinformatics which is number-crunching for genetics and creating the low-tax regions for multi-nationals, if implemented here, would both be sticking points for the lefties. There would be no point in doing it if there was any liklihood of a repeat of the private prisons.

Still it’s not insurmountable, with careful message-management.
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November 17, 2008 9:34am
Grendel

Saw Winston at the christchurch races on saturday, he was handing out the prize for one of the big races.

he was smiling but it looked like it was bolted on, the way he was gritting his teeth.

lots of amused laughing as his face came up on the screen as people talked about the former minister and also a few people were wondering if he had a cash stuffed envelope in his back pocket from the velas.

seems like he is now being seen for the joke he has been all along.

AL
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November 17, 2008 9:37am
Murray

Obligations to the former government that began its time by ripping up the contracts of the previous government?

Yeah good luck with that.
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November 17, 2008 9:55am
stephen

Pathetic tall-poppy, hand-wringing, envy media in full force. What a sad pack of losers.

Fairfax: You are part of the reason that NZ is in the mess it’s in.

You forget that a lot of people love to hear about the rich and famous, preferably at their worst, but just being really different will normally do.
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November 17, 2008 9:58am
tknorriss

Alex: “What I am waiting to see is how he deals with those ministers who do not cut the mustard.”

I am sure there is a reason he is known as “the smiling assassin”.
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November 17, 2008 10:04am
s.russell

LATEST NEWS: A gigantic 10km-wide asteroid is heading right for Earth. Scientists say there is a 90% chance of a collision, and recommend a $250 billion programme to blast it out of the way before it hits us.

This threat has bought an immediate response from climate change deniers:

“…whether, on the basis of such evidence, it is wise for the world’s governments to embark on some of the most costly economic measures ever proposed, to remedy a problem which may actually not exist, is a question which should give us all pause for thought.”
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November 17, 2008 10:11am
david

s russell,

are you willing to hang percentages around man’s influence on climate change with such gay abandon? willing to put your house on it are you?
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November 17, 2008 10:19am
reid

stephen: “You forget that a lot of people love to hear about the rich and famous, preferably at their worst, but just being really different will normally do.”

Fucking D’oh, stephen. D’ya really think that people’s news tastes can’t be influenced over time? By feeding them constant endless mindless pap, OF COURSE you’ll get readers and viewers used to it. You can also change the trend, if you have a will. Question is, what’s best for society?

s.russell: interesting how AGW enthusiasts so readily adopt transparent propaganda labels (“denier”). Personally I call myself an AGW skeptic. Anyhoo, if you want to discuss, care to address the points raised in that Telegraph article? (I understand if you don’t wish to, emotive bullshit is SO much easier, isn’t it.)
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November 17, 2008 10:21am
KiwiGreg

The use of the “denier” lable is a conscious attempt by climate change proponents to link with holocaust deniers. Lots of people have made the connection with religious debate in the climate change context.
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November 17, 2008 10:26am
Inventory2

Interesting to compare Phil Goff’s post-election thoughts on the EFA with what he was saying in December last year

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/11/monday-quote-17112008.html
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November 17, 2008 10:26am
adc

what’s with the NZ Herald? this so-called spat refers to Rodney saying he shouldn’t be looking into costs in maori affairs as there are much higher priority issues, and it may cause relationship difficulties.

Whoever at NZPA wrote that needs to learn how to spell “beat-up”. It’s a manufactured story over nothing. Disgusting journalism.

I think the Nats have a bit of work to do. Maybe they need to pass a “Media impartiality Bill” or “Media responsibility Bill” to stop the soulless snipers in the media from swaying (or attempting to sway) public opinion with bogus manufactured “stories”.
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November 17, 2008 10:26am
stephen

Fucking D’oh, stephen. D’ya really think that people’s news tastes can’t be influenced over time? By feeding them constant endless mindless pap, OF COURSE you’ll get readers and viewers used to it. You can also change the trend, if you have a will. Question is, what’s best for society?

I’m not saying people are being influenced, necessarily. Women’s Weekly and similar mags are the most popular publications in the country, so maybe to (partly) meet their commercial imperative, the newspapers chuck a bit of that stuff in. You make it sound as if Fairfax Media Group have some sort of social agenda to make people into gawping idiots, rather than a commercial one. “Question is, what’s best for society?” – I suggest they don’t really want to know nor do they care – what’s good for them is selling stuff.
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November 17, 2008 10:29am
Turpin

s.russel some food for thought.

” A big part of the problem for global warming alarmists is that although the United Nations and Al Gore told the world that catastrophic climate change was going to occur – unless the emissions of man-made greenhouse gases were reduced – the globe has not warmed but cooled. Since 1998, emissions have continued to rise and temperatures have continued to fall. This means that increasing numbers of people are becoming far more skeptical about global warming scaremongering and politicians jumping on the global warming bandwagon”.

http://www.nzcpr.com/guest124.htm
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November 17, 2008 10:32am
Turpin

adc

maybe if we stopped advertising in the papers that print the garbage for 6 months we’ll see a turn around?
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November 17, 2008 10:34am
stephen

Wonder why NZCPR chose 1998…
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November 17, 2008 10:38am
lloydois

Some food for your stunted brain Turpin.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/

Though I don’t epect it will have any imapct at all. One thing about climate change denialists is their refusal to consider the science and their easy gullability at believing any old pap they are fed like most faith based beliefs.
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November 17, 2008 10:38am
Patrick Starr

S Russell –yep- what’s the point in pissing hard earned pennies on a greenie sponsored myth possibly a hundred years from today – when there’s a huge asteroid is gonna nail us tomorrow.

(Is the ‘asteroid’ the current global financial crisis?- if so it seems the same ‘deniers’ are reacting quite positively)
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November 17, 2008 10:46am
reid

stephen:

“I’m not saying people are being influenced, necessarily.” Well, I am.

“Women’s Weekly and similar mags are the most popular publications in the country, so maybe to (partly) meet their commercial imperative, the newspapers chuck a bit of that stuff in.” WW etc aren’t and don’t pretend to be news outlets.

“You make it sound as if Fairfax Media Group have some sort of social agenda to make people into gawping idiots” Whatever their motive and I think commercialism is at the top of the list, that’s what they’re achieving. Think back to the times when we got genuine news all the time. The media have a responsibility to behave neutrally and to recognise their significant influence on social mores. When you get events such as One News showing in its first 6:00 segment a story on a blog rumour that a celeb had been killed in NZ, not that he had, it was a rumour, which came in the midst of the US and the NZ elections, you tend to think, WTF. This is but one small example of such instances that constantly occur.

I wouldn’t mind so much if they were all relegated to some pathetic show like Sainsbury’s since that’s what he seems to focus on anyway, but since people have limited time, put important things up front, and leave all such stories to outlets such as WW and the lifestyle sections of the weekend papers.
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November 17, 2008 10:47am
Grendel

Llydois, you made one spelling mistake.

where you said “climate change denialists ” you actually meant to write “climate change true beleivers”.

as its quite obvious that the true beleivers have AGW as their faith and religion.

the skeptics are exactly that, skeptical until we see science that has not come off the back of a chequebook. which rules out Algores science.
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November 17, 2008 10:50am
Brian Smaller

“This threat has bought an immediate response from climate change deniers: ”

Ah yes, Climate change deniers. Unlike you S Russel who remembers back in the good old days when the climate never changed. We had same conditions year after year with nary a hint of change. Nice to live in your world. Is is natural or drug induced?
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November 17, 2008 10:53am
mudmum

adc, this ‘spat’ the NZ Herald is on about is such a beat-up, i can’t think why they even bother. What they quoted Tariana as saying was actually on TV last night and of course she will have concerns. What Rodney is saying seems to be basically no problem, it’s not the most important area, so it won’t be the first. How is that spat?
Irritating little people, making up rubbish for their leftie mates.
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November 17, 2008 10:55am
Brian Smaller

“the skeptics are exactly that, skeptical until we see science that has not come off the back of a chequebook. which rules out Algores science.”

Gore doesn’t believe this bullshit. If the oceans are rising it would not have made much sense for him to buy that waterside condo in SF last year would it. Mind you, as Obama said, now that he is the man the oceans will stop rising and the world will heal itself. Maybe Gore knew something we don’t.
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November 17, 2008 10:56am
Turpin

Llydois

If you want me to engage with you or your information be polite otherwise I won’t bother as you come across as a cretin.
I am skeptical and rightly so, there is big money involved here and whilst you might consider me a Luddite, the religiosity of your attitude makes me treat you like any other fundie.

I would be more inclined to listen to Prof Singer (the father of climatology) or Dr David Bellamy (world renowned Biologist) over someone who is rude and inconsiderate.
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November 17, 2008 11:00am
Razork

Peter Dunne is again the revenue minister.

Serious question.
Can some-one explain to me exactly what is the responsibility/ role of the revenue minister?
Is the minister in charge of the IRD?
How does this role interact with Treasury or the Finance minister?
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November 17, 2008 11:21am
stephen

reid, i’m with you in lamenting the state of the media, but as for ‘being responsible’ – much trickier. I don’t know much about the reporting of this particular publication, but The Scott Trust could form a model for a paper that wanted to be independent of the need to put Britney Spears virginity updates up to sell papers, but would require some committed patrons…
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November 17, 2008 11:28am
Ryan Sproull

the skeptics are exactly that, skeptical until we see science that has not come off the back of a chequebook. which rules out Algores science.

Ah, the gospel truth of the highly qualified unpaid scientist.
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November 17, 2008 11:35am
3-coil

lloydois – you seem to be guilty of the same crime that you accuse the “global warming deniers” of.

You selectively agree with whichever scientist spouts the same tune as you…but the opposing arguments (solar-sunspot science etc) are dismissed as irrelevant. You are “denying” the validity of some science, but promoting other (debatable) scientific theory as the one true gospel ie. you are not objective.
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November 17, 2008 11:35am
stephen

but would require some committed patrons…

Or just read the weekly NBR?
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November 17, 2008 11:37am
reid

Interesting thought re: the Scott Trust, stephen, thanks.
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November 17, 2008 11:51am
wikiriwhis business

“What a change and hats off to the NZ public for spotting the difference!”

But did they?

I don’t think the NZ electorate as a whole is that sophisticated.

We still need shows like “a week of it” to give us meaningful though shallow insight

Labour simply lost its supporters. They were their own worst PR tool

The EFB was so bad, one man was able to stir up public opposition and get huge support… no easy task in this sleepy hollow. Labour aged from a beautiful babe to an old hag in a handful of years. They really were dirty old men trying to seduce children with sweets and looked it.

I will never forget that dreaded communist with the filthy rich family, Sue Moroney, shaking her head as people talked of child prostitution thanks to labours prostitution laws as if it didn’t exist. This happened at the Hamilton meet the candidates meeting and she is shameless. She is the face of totalitarianism and a despot if she had her way. I will do my utmost best to keep her out of govt from Hamilton…. even if it means becoming a paid up National member!!!!

I skirted that by giving my party vote to Act. If I have to be more direct, I will!
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November 17, 2008 12:08pm
Pita

Any thoughts as to what may happen to Winston’s $158,000 debt, to say nothing of Peter Dunn’s…will the charitable trust, to assist the victims of crime, be wound up and the proceeds be distributed among the trustees?

Or do we all forget about it and hope that it will just disappear?
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November 17, 2008 12:13pm
getstaffed

Pita makes a valid point. Also, perhaps the Speaker can be made to release the list of charities that Winston claimed have donated to. Which will be nice. And then we can demand the repayment of the other $158k to parliamentary services.
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November 17, 2008 12:30pm
petal

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/11/16/do1610.xml

The world has never seen such freezing heat.

A surreal scientific blunder last week raised a huge question mark about the temperature records that underpin the worldwide alarm over global warming….
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November 17, 2008 1:15pm
petal

http://tinyurl.com/6ym4qg

The world has never seen such freezing heat.

A surreal scientific blunder last week raised a huge question mark about the temperature records that underpin the worldwide alarm over global warming….
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November 17, 2008 1:17pm
Chuck Bird

An excellent article by Miranda Devine in Sydney morning Herald

Miranda Devine
November 15, 2008

Few vanquished leaders in the civilised world have been as graceless in defeat as New Zealand’s dentally challenged former prime minister Helen Clark. “I do hope that all we have worked to put in place doesn’t go up in flames in a bonfire lit by right-wing politics,” she said in a concession speech on Saturday night, after her Labour left-coalition government was routed.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/miranda-devine/middle-is-ascendant-not-the-leftwing/2008/11/14/1226318923436.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
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November 17, 2008 1:18pm
sam269

democracymum, I hope you aren’t going to pull a Graham Capill!
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November 17, 2008 1:19pm
democracymum

If anyone hasn’t already seen this beautiful tribute to an even more beautiful young NZ woman
you can view it here

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10543463
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November 17, 2008 1:35pm
democracymum

sam269

???
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November 17, 2008 1:35pm
lloydois

Fail to see how that article is excellent Chuck Bird. Miranda Devine is the biggest joke in Australian publishing, derided by her colleagues at the SMH most of whom see here as a symbol of the decline of a once sound newspaper. Unfortunately another New Zealander must think she has the smarts because she still has a job despite a steady stream of the sort of drivel she writes here. Still pining for Palin when the rest of the world moved on many weeks ago. Her social analysis produces many gems as did her trip to Baghdad to interview Petraeus. And who will ever forget her trip to Delhi on the same plane as Dr Haneef. He refused to talk to her so she concluded he must be guilty!
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November 17, 2008 2:30pm
Lee

Excellent article Chuck. 🙂
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November 17, 2008 3:17pm
Tauhei Notts

ADC at 10.26 a.m.
Rodney Hide knows more about mispending at Maori outfits than any other M.P.
Think Pipi Foundation, then have the temerity to tell Rodney to lay off.
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November 17, 2008 3:24pm
WraithX

Can someone tell me whether the light-bulb ban is going to happen now that National is in government? Please say it won’t!
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November 17, 2008 3:36pm
Redbaiter

“Miranda Devine is the biggest joke in Australian publishing,”

You yellow backed intellectual and moral cowards never have anything but the same old same old. Anyone who speaks words that you consider unapproved must be personally destroyed. Just fuck off. Miranda Devine is no joke, but you’re sure as hell a lying cowardly smearer and liar.
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November 17, 2008 3:40pm
baxter

KIWI GREG extract from Dom Feature.
Kyoto, lawyer Alistair Hercus recently claimed that “as a country we have to pay”. In fact, the Kyoto protocol says nothing about enforcement and as yet there are no international emissions enforcers to act as judge, jury and executioner.

We can opt out of Kyoto whenever we like or, like most other countries, pretend to support the protocol and, at the same time, do little or nothing.

To be like most countries seems to me the wisest course.
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November 17, 2008 3:52pm
dave strings

The use of the “denier” lable is a conscious attempt by climate change proponents to link with holocaust deniers.

And there was me thinking iot was a measure of the thickness of the threads in ladies stockings!
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November 17, 2008 4:50pm
lloydois

Unfortunately Miranda is still with us Redbaiter. Much like Sarah Palin. No amount of ridicule seems to get rid of these shameless charlatans. Miranda has been promoted way beyond any journalistic competence. She continues to enthrall and amuse on a twice weekly basis and Fairfax wonders their serious readership is deserting in droves.

I’m sure Sarah likewise will be back to delight you with her pithy down home intelligence and provide endless amusement for the rest of us.
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November 17, 2008 5:32pm

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