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November 1, 2008 9:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 1 November 2008

Seven days to go!

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Glutaemus Maximus

The head to head debate will be just fascinating.

Helen will not be looking forward to this at all, and my guess is that she will lose the plot.

On the back foot, unable to stay on her own two feet. Looking hapless, party out of control, and now

going to have to cut Peters out of Government.

I still can’t fathom why she is proud of having the lowest voice register for a female? (Baritone)

Methinks that is well weird.

And according to TGIF she is unable to confirm that she would stay a full term as PM if elected.

Bring it on Lefty Trolls!
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November 1, 2008 9:06am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

What are the odds of Osama producing a video this weekend?
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November 1, 2008 9:06am
Lee C

It will be all or nothing for Helen – I predict a lot of innuendo, divisiveness, personal slights and spuriously based attacks – but she will mostly attack Key on his ‘record’ and try to make him defend his position – All Key has to do is
i) his homework and have his version of events ready with a pithy similar example Helen’s done the same, and
ii) reflect upon how each time, far from promoting ‘trust’ Helen has by her own actions, undermined ‘trust’.
He could point out that Helen doesn’t Trust people to:
raise their own kids as they see fit
spend their own wages as they see fit
express political opinions as they see fit
qualify for ‘honest’ ministers
defend themselves from criminals

Any others come to mind?
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November 1, 2008 9:16am
Spam

Did anyone else notice Helen ‘laughing’ on the news that no conservative people can ever be compassionate (or some other such nonsense)? I find that quite offensive. I guess its along the lines of ‘Tory charity’.
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November 1, 2008 9:22am
expat

hulun has fucked up – the media will crucify her now
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November 1, 2008 9:25am
Rod

Surely the revelations today put MMP into the trash at last.

That a corrupt politician leading a tiny party built around his personal following can force the Prime Minister to push through legislation favouring special interests in order to be able to govern must be the evidence that finally trumps all the nice notions about proportional representation.

It just proves MMP produces disproportional representation of power and influence, and leads to corruption.

We all know that MMP has allowed all kinds of strange people to become MPs without having to gain the support of an electorate, just the support of a small group of party leaders, and an overall 5% support for the party as a group.

Voters are not silly. On the whole, electorate MPs have to pass a much higher test of integrity than list MPs. We should revert to that principle in some form or other.
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November 1, 2008 9:32am
Spider_Pig

O’Sullivan this morning suggests Clark may call for Tauranga voters to switch their electorate vote to Peters. I struggle to see how this would work. The National candidate Bridges is already polling close to 50% so would require almost all Labour voters to switch. Coupled with this is that apparently not all Labour voters want Peters back (I don’t know personally, as I only know two people who admit they vote for Labour).

Bridges will win Tauranga comfortably. Will Labour pull their candidate in Rimutaka to give Ron Marks a shake at it?
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November 1, 2008 9:47am
expat

Fuck off spider pig – you know and associate with TWO people who vote labour?!

I feel sick!

😉
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November 1, 2008 9:50am
Gulag

Raise the threshold to 10%
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November 1, 2008 9:50am
Spider_Pig

Umm, yeah sorry about that! One is my girlfriend who has a massive student loan (Doctor) but is firmly backing the Nats this time round (I’ve said I’ll break up with her if she votes Labour). The other is a teacher. Need I say more!
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November 1, 2008 10:01am
BlueDevil

Can anyone see the Labour vote collapsing and transferring over to the Greens?
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November 1, 2008 10:02am
mawm

Rod: 0932 – It just proves MMP produces disproportional representation of power and influence, and leads to corruption.

And what is more evident is that a resurgent Maori Party, where Maori already has disproportional representation through the Maori seats, will have an even further distortion of their ability to influence the way the country is governed. Of course they will cry foul if anyone so much as raises the point just as anyone loosing ‘rights’ that they have will if there is a threat of loosing them.

This is what MMP has done to democracy.
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November 1, 2008 10:04am
Banana Llama

I hope Helen goes Feral and ends the night with a wide eyed scowl across her face, it would truly be torpedoing the ship through her own arrogance and ineptitude, befitting that of a French general from 1940.
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November 1, 2008 10:05am
Seamonkey Madness

Is anyone even going to bother with the Hong Kong game tonight?

Meh…
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November 1, 2008 10:13am
Rod

@ mawm
“This is what MMP has done to democracy.”

Or, to put it another way, what Labour (David Lange in this case) has done to democracy in NZ.
His referendum was a farce.
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November 1, 2008 10:26am
democracymum

Even Richard Griffin (Winston’s drinking buddy and good friend)

Has just told NewstalkZB re: DomPost article that

“This is the nail in the coffin for Peters”

One can only hope.
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November 1, 2008 10:29am
david

# BlueDevil (4) Vote: Add rating 3 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 10:02 am

Can anyone see the Labour vote collapsing and transferring over to the Greens?

Which raises an interesting question. Is it possible that we will see Jeanette, Russel, Tariana and Peta scrapping over who should be the Leader of the Opposition. Oh what a joy to contemplate !!!
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November 1, 2008 10:38am
david

Seamonkey,

Of course. Us real blokes can multitask with the best. Drink beer, munch crisps, watch rugby and think of the end of the Red Team all at the same time. …. LOL
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November 1, 2008 10:40am
Hagues

Spider_Pig “One is my girlfriend who has a massive student loan (Doctor)… The other is a teacher. Need I say more!”

Still no excuse. I’m a student with a reasonable loan, my wife is a teacher with a massive student loan. Neither of use will ever go near Labour in a million years.
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November 1, 2008 10:43am
mawm

Hagues: 1043, Still no excuse. I’m a student with a reasonable loan, my wife is a teacher with a massive student loan. Neither of use will ever go near Labour in a million years.

Hah, but have you taken their dirty money and accepted their student loan bribe?

Remember that these bribes handed out by labour is all about them giving our (taxpayer) money to people who do not deserve it.
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November 1, 2008 11:07am
grumpyoldhori

Hagues, so you are voting new Labour instead, amusing.
A question for you, do you believe that you who sits inside those ivy covered walls should get more money thrown at you than some young bloke who leaves school and starts a business ?
Or should you be on the same footing, if you are bright enough for university should you not be bright enough to pay the full cost ?

Or do you need socialism ?
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November 1, 2008 11:14am
getstaffed

Kids, families labelled ‘abnormal’

Some extracts:

The project, known as B4SC, or “Before School Check”, aims to test every four year old or new entrant at school for psychological and behavioural issues that may warrant further investigations of family circumstances and targeted state intervention for the child.

Kiro signalled the eventual creation of a new ‘superagency’ tasked with “monitoring the development of every child and young person in New Zealand at key life stages the assessments would take into account the whole child: their physical, social,educational, emotional and psychological development” according to standards set by the State, rather than families.

Kiro’s speech said the government would assign a “primary professional” to keep tabs on each family and ensure the family implemented government strategies for the child’s development:
“Individual plans, owned by the child [GS: yes, a 4yr old…] and held by the family, will be developed in partnership with children and families and each child would have a primary professional responsible for ensuring the child and family have access to services and advice as needed.”
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November 1, 2008 11:29am
reid

“so you are voting new Labour instead”

The fact the Nats have moderated their previously correct stance on various policies is nothing more than a pragmatic realisation that the reef fish have been pumped full of lefty propaganda for years. Therefore the center has shifted therefore practising conservative politics is more difficult.

The reef fish don’t understand conservative politics which is nothing more than conserving what you have. A politics lecturer once said to us that older people tend to be conservative since they have more to conserve. At the time I thought he meant possessions but over time I’ve realised it means everything: traditions, values, faith.

Unfortunately I’ve never those values practised by lefties, rather it’s precisely the opposite. They insidiously undermine all those things since at heart, they’re revolutionaries. The reef fish of course don’t understand this since they’re more focused on living a superficial life and that’s why they’re susceptible to propaganda, since their political beliefs have no root since they’ve never troubled themselves to consider it over the years. It’s one of the tragedies of democracy that govts are decided by such people.
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November 1, 2008 11:34am
grumpyoldhori

reid, moderated their stance ?
In policy I see no difference between either new nor old Labour.
But it is amusing that people just want a change in the people but they want no change in Labour policies.
As is shown by those who believe they have earned the right to a university education on taxpayers money.
Maybe some student can say what has he/she done to have earned the right to the use of taxpayers money.
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November 1, 2008 11:45am
Lee

Getstaffed,

there has not been anywhere enough publicity about Cindy Kiro’s alarming plan to effectively replace parents with the state, and to use the power of the state to force liberal programming on to the nations children. One of my hopes with a change in government is that a National/ACT government will give Kiro the boot. I cannot see ACT signing up to this at all.
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November 1, 2008 11:50am
reid

In policy maybe there’s not as much difference as there should be, but it’s in execution that you’ll see the difference.

The Nats won’t indulge in the same insidious revolutionary practices that Liabore has, they don’t do social engineering. If they succeed in managing the economy through this crisis in such a way as to convince the reef fish that even though it wasn’t the same as the golden years nevertheless it was as good as could be expected, they’ll get another term. Then you’ll see a bigger gap in the relative policies. Personally I have my doubts as to whether they’ll be successful in that, since doing so requires policy changes such as those advocated by Douglas, which the electorate won’t accept since they don’t understand economics.
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November 1, 2008 11:54am
grumpyoldhori

reid, Labour’s praying that Key will see the wisdom of having Douglas as finance minister and says so in the next couple of days.
Nats do not do social engineering, did you miss the Muldoon years ?
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November 1, 2008 12:03pm
reid

Muldoon was a Keynesian economist: i.e. a socialist.

I was too young to understand his social policies and have never researched them: got any examples.

Re: Douglas, I know Liarbore is praying for that, but you and I both know it won’t happen: Key is nothing if not pragmatic.

And just because the electorate won’t accept Douglas, it doesn’t mean that he’s wrong.
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November 1, 2008 12:07pm
Hagues

mawm “Hah, but have you taken their dirty money and accepted their student loan bribe?”

Certainly didn’t vote for it. I voted for tax cuts for everybody despite the fact we had loans as it is the best for the country. But I cannot change the fact that interest is not charged on the loan. BTW I do not recieve any allowance, just have the loan.

grumpyoldhori “Hagues, so you are voting new Labour instead, amusing.”

Assume makes an ass out of you and… well just you actually. I certainly am not voting new Labour and if you had paid any attention to any other posts other than your own you would have seen clearly that I am backing ACT 100%

“Or do you need socialism ?”

No, again pay attention to posts other than your own…

Hagues (255) 5 0 Says:
October 31st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Party vote ACT to stop socialist bullshit.
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November 1, 2008 12:11pm
Lee

A National/ACT government will be no different to a Labour/Green one?

Riiight 🙂

Grumpy’s been at the happy juice again.
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November 1, 2008 12:12pm
Delivery Boy

Expat in the Hutt News this week there was an ad for” Ron Marks your strongest voice for Rimutaka”, but in this advertisement there was no NZ1st logo just an authorizing statement, on the following page a picture of Clark and Hipkins with lots of ticks for the Labour party vote.
Is this the back door entry for NZ1st?
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November 1, 2008 12:16pm
Lee

Grumpy,

do you ever do any driving? Those roads your using, who paid for them? Taxpayers right? That makes you (according to your argument) a socialist bludging off others, does it not?

Hagues,

according to grumpy EVERYONE is a socialist except himself. Must be lovely to be that pure and so high above us mere mortals!

He claims to be voting for the Libertarianz, but I know some Anarcho-Capitalists who would say that the Libs are just as “socialist” as Labour, what with still having taxpayer funded government and all.

All depends on where people stand.

Taking a purist stance (in his eyes at least) that is totally divorced from reality, and then attacking everyone who does not conform to it, is an easy and lazy way to argue.
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November 1, 2008 12:19pm
PaulL

Spider_Pig: I’ve said I’ll break up with her if she votes Labour

I think you have your priorities wrong. You shouldn’t allow politics to influence your sex life – that way leads to pain. You do of course realise that more than half the women in the country vote left, and more than half the men vote right. If we all took this approach, there’d be a shortage. You need to be thinking of the big picture.

Of course, if we took the vote back of women, this problem would go away. We could do it on the basis of misrepresentation – the vote was originally given to women based on the proposition that it would give good, law abiding men 2 votes (their’s and their wife’s), and of course if you had daughters who were unmarried you got still more votes. Clearly this hasn’t worked, so like any law that hasn’t worked we should repeal it.
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November 1, 2008 12:28pm
PhilBest

Reid, a couple of weeks ago you said you’d be interested in some reading suggestions re Cultural Marxism and the “Long March Through the Institutions”.

I did post one but it might have been too late for you to see it.

Seeing you are on here now:

“Who Stole Our Culture” and “What is Cultural Marxism?” by William S. LIND

“The Historical Roots of Political Correctness” by Raymond V. RAEHN

“Gramsci’s Grand Plan” by James THORNTON

“Gramsci: A Method To the Madness” by William Norman GRIGG

“What is the Frankfurt School” by Gerald L. ATKINSON

“Enthralled By Cultural Marxism” by Chuck MORSE

“Gramsci and the US Body Politic” by Alberto LUZARRAGA

“The Frankfurt School: Its History, Theories, and Political Significance” BOOK by Rolf Wiggershaus; REVIEW by David WEININGER

“Why There is a Culture War” by John FONTE

“Missing Diversity”; “Today’s Culture Wars”; and “Up From Multiculturalism” By David Horowitz

“The Ongoing Marxist March against The Western Mind” by Frank MORRISS

“What if you found out that bad stuff is happening on purpose?” By Charley REESE

“The New Left, Cultural Marxism, and Psychopolitics disguised as Multiculturalism” By Linda KIMBALL

“Political Correctness: The Revenge of Marxism” by “Fjordman”

I won’t bother to do links as the system would spit its dummy with this many.

Google should bring them up.
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November 1, 2008 1:12pm
PhilBest

Reid, Muldoon was a cultural conservative but a Keynesian economics control freak. Fixed exchange rate, price controls, wage controls, nothing wrong with the economy could not be solved by regulation. But he would have poured thunder and brimstone upon Labour’s social engineering of the last few years.
He even used homosexuality scandals to bring down political opponents, and distaste with that was probably a factor in the decriminalisation of homosexuality being a non-issue with so many people in between the “strongly pro” and the “strongly anti” crowds.
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November 1, 2008 1:16pm
Johnboy

Does anyone here rate Ron Marks as a credible challenge to Liarbor in Rimutaka and if so why?
My opinion is that he is too short, too ugly, too bald and he has forgotten how to salute properly since he was a major as you have to use more than one finger.
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November 1, 2008 1:27pm
reid

Excellent, thanks Phil.
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November 1, 2008 1:27pm
grumpyoldhori

Lee, yep a paid a few cents in road user, nope make that over $ 300K on a yearly average from running trucks and trailers.
Asked the wrong question there did you not 🙂

A Anarcho-Capitalist party, yes it is a pity we do not have one I would give them my vote.
I hate bloody hypocrisy, I do not really care if we have a socialist or a free market type government.
But the people who give me the shits are those who state they follow ACT beliefs and then put their bloody snouts in the trough for a tax payer funded university education while saying they are owed the bloody same.
What has some whining student done to be owed a bloody thing ?

If people are going to argue for ACT principles, they should at least attempt to live by those bloody principles.
Instead of being raving bloody socialists when it suits them.
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November 1, 2008 1:42pm
Lindsay Addie

Interesting poll from the West Coast – Tasman electorate:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/4745601a28478.html

O’Connor just holding on in the electorate vote but only just.
In the party vote National miles in front by nearly 11%.

The Greens doing well in the party vote.
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November 1, 2008 1:45pm
Nefarious

hori, were you too thick to get into uni?
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November 1, 2008 1:49pm
Johnboy

They never let Horis into uni in Grumpys day they had to stay in the Pa then. Eh Hori!
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November 1, 2008 1:55pm
PhilBest

No-one seems to have commented on Ian Wishart’s latest TGIF yet. He says that Helen Clark will not confirm that she is not going to stand down anyway after this election whether she wins or loses. He says that she is trying to save her legacy by getting as many of her social-engineering young disciples into high positions as possible at the expense of the future “moderate” wing of her party, and intends to stand down if she is satisfied that she has achieved that – presumably a plumb job lined up for her at the UN.

Any comments?
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November 1, 2008 1:58pm
grumpyoldhori

Nefarious , hell no, I was going to do a degree in leisure studies, but the buggers would not supply enough single malt 🙂
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November 1, 2008 2:00pm
Nefarious

Were you hoping for a career as a politician?
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November 1, 2008 2:17pm
PhilBest

Message for Redbaiter:

Do you know about African-American Pastor James David Manning of ATLAH World Missionary Church in Harlem? This guy tells ’em like it is about Barack Obama, in their own argot……..

(“Colin Powell; are you THAT BITTER with George Bush, with Condoleeza Rice, with the Republicans? You are behaving like a stoopid Nigger…….I know some Niggers in jail got more integrity than you…….”!!!).

I don’t agree with everything he says, but……….you’ll both laugh and cry as well as cringe listening to this guy, you can hear and feel his pain about what “white trash” politics has done to his people…….

http://nz.youtube.com/user/ATLAHWorldwide
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November 1, 2008 2:26pm
chuk

Johnboy (1:55) – as a right thinking resident in the Rimutaka electorate, I’d be interested in the answer to your question too. It used to be a Labour certainty apparently but I’ve heard that boundary changes make it less certain now. Ron Mark’s presence is worrying me. Deliveryboy (12:16) asks whether the electorate is the back door entry for NZF. How about this for a bit of tactical voting in Rimutaka: Party vote ACT, electorate vote for Hipkins (Labour)????? The hope is that helps keep Ron Mark and any shabby NZF list candidate who fails in Tauranga to make it back in?
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November 1, 2008 5:32pm
chuk

Oops!! I meant to say the tactic would hopefully keep Mark and NZF out. Apologies.
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November 1, 2008 5:34pm
Lee

“I do not really care if we have a socialist or a free market type government.”

Obviously. And it confirms my intuition that you have no principles of your own, your just trolling.

“If people are going to argue for ACT principles, they should at least attempt to live by those bloody principles.”

I know enough about ACT’s policies that the people you are attacking DO live by them. ACT has never claimed to believe in an anarchist market. They favour more freedom, but less government, not NO government. You falsely interpret that as an anarchist market, then attack those people for not living up to your straw man. Thats both dishonest and hypocritical, especially as YOU do not live up to the standards you keep claiming to believe in.

You claim to believe in a free market, but then you say you will do nothing to help move the country in that direction. On top of that you then claim that you do not even care whether you live under a free market or a socialist government. Thats the very same hypocrisy you accuse others of.

Heres what I hate. I hate whiners, and you are a whiner. You sit on your ass spitting tacks at everyone here who does not live up to your false straw man standards, but you will not lift a finger to do anything. You will in fact give a proxy vote to Labour, thereby contradicting the very principles you claim to believe, and that you use to attack others.

Your a hypocrite and a whiner. Go away. The rest of us actually care about NZ and are working to end the Clark regime. If all you want to do is sit on your ass and whine about others not being as “pure” as you, you have nothing to contribute. If you do not care about whether Labour or National leads the next government, then you do not care about your country.
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November 1, 2008 5:40pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Good to see that TVONE News has got the leading political story about the National MP and the Indian Immigrants.

NO mention of Vela, Meurant, or Peters.

Mmmmmmm we were all right about a certain bias, weren’t we?

Just amazing!!
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November 1, 2008 5:55pm
Southern Raider

GM they have probably been told they will lose their funding unless they start contributing to the campaign.
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November 1, 2008 5:59pm
Southern Raider

I bet the complainant who I believe isn’t even the affected party is a Labour party hack.

There is no proof and the investigation hasn’t even started yet TVNZ have already pronounced him guilty.

What happened to the Shane Jones story? The NZ Police have apparently just gone to China to investigate. Doesn’t this story have more legs?
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November 1, 2008 6:01pm
gee90

So that’s settled then: no room for Roger.

Newstalk ZB reports:

“ACT leader Rodney Hide says he accepts John Key’s decision not to offer Sir Roger Douglas a cabinet posting after the election. Mr Hide and the National Party leader announced their support for one another this afternoon at a media conference in a Remuera cafe in Auckland. Mr Key said he is prepared to work with the ACT party, but says there is no way he would give Sir Roger a ministerial role.”

On the TV news, Key said he would lead a “centrist” government, and that he had good reasons for ruling out both Peters and Douglas.
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November 1, 2008 7:10pm
Hagues

Roger also said that if ACT gets greater support in the election then Roger may renegotiate the position. Also note he will not be in cabinet, nothing to say he can’t be minister (or associate) outside cabinet.
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November 1, 2008 7:32pm
Johnboy

Hell Guys times are tough over at “The Stranded”.

The Presidium has had a meeting and passed a resolution and decided that it is all hands to the barricades and that a vote for “The Workers Party” or “The Residents Action Movement” Is effectivly a vote for National.

Henceforth all such votes are banned and all who vote this way will be regarded as enemies of the people and will be shot!

Hear and obey all true socialists!!!
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November 1, 2008 8:04pm
musthafabuck

Just shot away an email to Fran Mold expressing my dissapointment over the lack of Peters coverage 2night.
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November 1, 2008 8:06pm
Duxton

musta: Did you compliment her on her decision to wax her moustache?

.
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November 1, 2008 9:49pm

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