General Debate 24 November 2008

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Lee

It does raise a question though Phil. Because his supposed resume of being a friend of the hard left with a potential soft-spot for Islamic terrorists has turned out to be completely false.

So how much of the resume that your concerned about really is just selective and out of context partisan propaganda, rather than anything people should have been seriously concerned about?

I’m not attacking you or the people you post, but I’m old enough (and perhaps cynical enough about politics) to have become very wary of partisan propaganda, regardless of whether its from the Left or the Right.
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November 24, 2008 2:39pm
Ryan Sproull

And 3 cheers for Redbaiter, again. One of the best.

I’ll take that as a decision not to explain which part of the abuse you were cheering for, and take it that you were cheering for all four sentences.

1. “Peripheral” is giving it too high a rating by far.
2. What a mushroom like you might think is so far out there it is intergalactic.
3. Who the fuck cares, you sad uninformed past your use by date moron??
4. Rejoin earth’s orbit when you’ve got a clue.
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November 24, 2008 2:39pm
wikiriwhis business

“No, that’s you with your preoccupation with the non-issue of race.”

Would it be fair to say the lefties can be described as being a ‘non issue farce’

They never talk about issues they slander personalities.

For instance, mention the name ‘Redbaiter’ to a lefty aware of him and their predictabe diatribe of propaganda and personality politics would spew forth rabidly and no one would be any the wiser to any solution what so ever.

Personally, I couldn’t be as one eyed as Redbaiter which is why I’m not a National Party member. There’s been so much deceit from both sides of the house over the years that I yearn for the day when the Nat/Lab coalition is gone.

Keep MMP and keep both sides monitored. Neither side has saints in them by any stretch of the imagination.
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November 24, 2008 2:43pm
Ryan Sproull

So the questions are…

Is the birth-certificate question a similar kind of question to Bush’s service record?

If it is, should they both be investigated and reported on as thoroughly as each other?

If they should, have they?

If they haven’t, what is the reason?

Redbaiter seems to be saying that they are similar enough questions to require similar levels of investigation and reporting, they haven’t, and the reason is that the US media are head-over-heels in love with Obama – and are therefore not doing their job with integrity.

Is that accurate?
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November 24, 2008 2:45pm
Redbaiter

“Did the Obama campaign claim that the certificate they provided was precisely that one written up at birth? It looks like some kind of re-issued one.”

Hooray, at last Ryan has figured part of it out. People want to see the original Ryan. That’s all that is being asked. The same request was made of Bush and McCain. Why can’t it be made of Obama?

The explanation hasn’t been provided in the mainstream media, and therefore you guys are stumped.

Put that aside for a minute. Let me help you out of the quick sand. Here’s a question you could ask of those who say the cert is a fake taken from his sister’s cert. “Where is the sister’s original cert?” See? its easy when you’ve got a brain. It saves you having to make endless empty assertions in lieu of real argument.
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November 24, 2008 2:52pm
oranjemakker

Listening to Morning Report today, it appeared as if Radio New Zealand had sent a journo to cover the APEC Summit in Peru. I think they said it was their Chief Economics Correspondent.
If correct this seems excessive, being a tax funded (clearly overfunded) organisation.

Anyway, my question is whether anyone can verify wheter they did in fact send someone out there specially to cover this summit (and if so flying biz class??) and whether this kind of thing might be reviewed by the new goverment? After all, why can’t they just make use of a freelancer or lift the report from another source. Must be cheaper than sending the reporter on a boondoggle to Lima, at our expense.
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November 24, 2008 2:57pm
Redbaiter

” the US media are head-over-heels in love with Obama ”

Something they should never be. They must question every politician. Every pronouncement. Every policy. Every claim. Every story. Question. Seek. Investigate. Probe. They don’t. In respect of this man, they’re partisan traitors to their craft. Disgusting reprehensible lap dogs.
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November 24, 2008 2:57pm
Ryan Sproull

The explanation hasn’t been provided in the mainstream media, and therefore you guys are stumped.

Why do you assume that I don’t agree with you on this issue? Truth is, I’m inclined to agree with you.
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November 24, 2008 3:02pm
Redbaiter

“Truth is, I’m inclined to agree with you.”

Careful. You’ll find yourself blackballed down at Club Liberal.
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November 24, 2008 3:09pm
Ryan Sproull

Careful. You’ll find yourself blackballed down at Club Liberal.

I think they blackballed me back when I wrote an article on reasons not to vote in 2005. One doesn’t become a socialist libertarian to spend a whole lot of time agreeing with people – of any variety.
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November 24, 2008 3:14pm
Redbaiter

I can’t even see how a socialist libertarian could agree with himself.
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November 24, 2008 3:16pm
Ryan Sproull

I can’t even see how a socialist libertarian could agree with himself.

That would be a whole other conversation. I suppose all that’s relevant here is that, to me, Obama’s an authoritarian capitalist, and he’s not my hero. Not that I have any heroes, besides perhaps myself.
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November 24, 2008 3:22pm
Ryan Sproull

And Batman.
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November 24, 2008 3:28pm
Buggerlugs

yes oranjemakker, they sent Nigel Stirling, who will be there in his backpack and roman sandals. I thought his report might have been better done by a fifth form economics student, because he clearly had no idea and was probably taking his talking points from CNN. he hadnt even read the communique FFS.
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November 24, 2008 3:43pm
oranjemakker

Thanks Buggerlugs, yes, it was Nigel Stirling. And a particularly uninformative report it was too. Thats the problem with sending people to these things, they all just parrot the same stuff from the Press conferences. There was a piece on tv last week supposedly showing the real “poor” Lima and both TVNZ and TV3 showed exactly the same images, obviously they were all just taken in an aircon bus from their hotel, filmed a few beggars, and then escorted back.
At least TV3 is privately owned, and TVNZ is nominally commercial, so if they want to waste their money on this fine, but why the hell radio NZ need to go along is beyond me. What was their shocking low share of the radio market again… 13%?
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November 24, 2008 3:54pm
Rex Widerstrom

big bruv asks:

Is it just me or is anybody else seeing nothing more than the heading for the thread at the top of the page?

Nope, me too. It happens on the “election results” and “National’s results” thread where (I assume) DPF is posting some sort of graphic. When such a post is the most recent, all I get on the main page is the heading and then the rest of the middle column is blank. If I click on the post itself, same thing.

If it’s not the most recent post, I can see all posts before it, but then just it’s heading and nothing below it.

Can you have a look at this bug please DPF. It’s driving me crazy(er)!! (I’m using IE7 on XP, up to date with patches etc).
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November 24, 2008 4:19pm
oranjemakker

just checked, it was 16.7%, well below their 19-21% target. So they underachieved by about 16%. In a sane world this would lead to a budget cut of the same amount at least. They operated on a $34m budget, so that about $5.5m of that should have been docked in their next budget.
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November 24, 2008 4:20pm
Rex Widerstrom

DPF:

Just had a quick look at the code of the posts causing so many of us a problem. Seems they were written in Word, then pasted into WordPress. As a result they’re stuffed with Microsoft’s ridiculous, unecessary and proprietary “tags” which even their own browser chokes on.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that one or more of those tags are throwing people’s browsers into confusion. A quick fix would be to take the post, dump it into Dreaweaver, use it’s “get rid of Microsoft’s useless crap” function ( it may a have a slightly different name in your version 😉 ) and then re-post. Or delete anyhting that isn’t standard (X)HTML by hand, but I’m guessing you have better things to do.

Ta muchly.
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November 24, 2008 4:41pm
Buggerlugs

I must admit i did struggle to see how sending Gentleman Geoff Robinson to Washington for a fortnight to cover an election covered by over 65,000 other proper journalists was going to help their incessant whining about budgetary constraints.
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November 24, 2008 5:53pm
Redbaiter

Any of those who say there’s nothing to be curious about like to explain the radical differences in the two certificates on this page. Obama’s cert and the cert known to be genuine?

http://www.youdecide2008.com/2008/10/28/obama%E2%80%99s-born-identity/

(Posted again through lack of response)
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November 24, 2008 6:24pm
lloydois

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081109/NEWS01/811090361

“That July posting contained a photocopy of what is most likely the first mention of Barack Obama ever published — a tiny, one-line birth notice in the Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961, edition of The Honolulu Advertiser:

“Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Highway, son, Aug. 4.”

The exact same notice appeared the following day in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. The numerous birth announcements above and below the Obama listing also were identical in both papers, which were unaffiliated, competing publications.

Advertiser columnist and former Star-Bulletin managing editor Dave Shapiro was not at either paper in 1961, but he remembers how the birth notices process worked years later when both papers were jointly operated by the Hawaii Newspaper Agency — which no longer exists.

“Those were listings that came over from the state Department of Health,” he said. “They would send the same thing to both papers.

Fringe theorists who insist Obama was born in Kenya are left to ponder how two independent Honolulu daily newspapers and the state Department of Health could be part of conspiracy half a century ago to thwart the truth about the future president of the United States.”

It does make you wonder doesn’t it but then anyone who has been privy to the unhinged ramblings of Redbaiter and PhilBest probably don’t need to wonder that hard.

It really does defy comprehension that anyone with a modicum of intelligence couldn’t work out that if this had legs McCain and the Rovian attack machine would have comprehensively run with it during the campaign itself.

I look forward to Redbaiter’s explanation as to how how the Honululu papers’ birth notices could that have been faked 47 years before the guy ran for president?
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November 24, 2008 6:41pm
MyNameIsJack

Still trying to work out why redraver gets so hung up on Palin, but here’s a great BIG thank you to the Wasilla Pit Bull in Lipstick:
\
http://mudflats.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/thank-you-people-saying-thank-you-to-sarah-palin/
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November 24, 2008 6:50pm
wikiriwhis business

Does everyone know Karl Rove has been sepeonered to testify and refused twice to show up claiming judicial privilige which has been denied him and has since disappeared believed to have left the country??

Comments Redbaiter
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November 24, 2008 6:54pm
Redbaiter

“I look forward to Redbaiter’s explanation as to how how the Honululu papers’ birth notices could that have been faked 47 years before the guy ran for president?”

You really need Redbaiter to give you the answer to that you’re even more brain damaged than I’ve so far believed. As I’ve already stated quite clearly above, the claim is that the mother manipulated the system to make it appear as if the birth of both Obama and his sister took place in the US.

If this was so, of course the mother putting a birth notice in the papers at the time wouldn’t be an example of any great effort or cunning. That you really couldn’t answer such a simple question yourself may suggest that you should fuck off and stop wasting people’s time here with your mindless low IQ drivel.
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November 24, 2008 6:58pm
Redbaiter

“Does everyone know Karl Rove has been sepeonered”

By a deranged idiot with a dumbfuck jury. Its a story that the mainstream media have run with (of course) with but in reality worthless. Another example of their partisan attacks on the right while they let Obama off the hook on something far more significant.
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November 24, 2008 7:01pm
MyNameIsJack

I still don’t understand how Rupert Murdoch can be a Communist AND rich.

Come on redviper, who OWNS the “liberal media conspiracy”?
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November 24, 2008 7:07pm
budgieboy

“lloydois (184) said…

“That July posting contained a photocopy of what is most likely the first mention of Barack Obama ever published — a tiny, one-line birth notice in the Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961, edition of The Honolulu Advertiser:
“Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Highway, son, Aug. 4”

Havent got much time to read (or comment on blogs) tonight so just passing through… but lloydois, didnt Obama change his name at some stage? I didnt think he was Barrack H Obama till later in life? Not 100% sure on that but if so the ref to the Birth Notice would be fake wouldn’t it?
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November 24, 2008 7:13pm
PhilBest

Ryan Sproull (949) Vote: 1 2 Says:

November 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
“And 3 cheers for Redbaiter, again. One of the best.

I’ll take that as a decision not to explain which part of the abuse you were cheering for, and take it that you were cheering for all four sentences.

1. “Peripheral” is giving it too high a rating by far.
2. What a mushroom like you might think is so far out there it is intergalactic.
3. Who the fuck cares, you sad uninformed past your use by date moron??
4. Rejoin earth’s orbit when you’ve got a clue.”

Ryan, I fail to see on that original thread, that my “3 cheers for Redbaiter” specifically referred to that comment of his.

I have outlined my opinion of Redbaiter along these lines before:

He is a rare case of someone who is actually awake to the great “Long March Through The Institutions” of Cultural Marxism, and conducting a battle against it within the limited means available to him.

I completely understand his frustration and the way it boils over into insults of those he is debating; I have been guilty of similar transgressions myself, but perhaps not as often. I am inclined to limit my name-calling of obvious leftists, to the terms of “stooge” and “dupe”, which pretty much sums the possibilities up. If someone is a “dupe”, I try and help them to see the light. If someone is a “stooge”, it is pointless trying to convert them, their role in our society is akin to that of Vidkun Quisling in Norway in 1940. All one can do is rebut their poison and alert others about the “Long March” that those people are stooges of.

But as Vidkun Quisling would have deserved strong language, I think Redbaiter is well within rights a lot of time. To use a topical example, look at it this way: there would be no dead Nias and Lillybings and Kahui twins, without that damned, abominable, satanic, “Long March”. If you still make excuses for welfarism and soft treatment of criminals and victim culture ideology, you deserve anything Redbaiter calls you.
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November 24, 2008 7:34pm
PhilBest

Lee (484) Vote: 0 0 Says:

November 24th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
“Phil, a question.

If all the links you have posted regarding Obama are right, then I’m confused. If they were in fact true then Obama would have moved to the hard left in his appointments, for example, Dennis Kucinich for State. Instead he has appointed people from the Right of the Democratic Party, Hillary for State, and the pro-free-market Larry Summers as his primary economic advisor. And if was a friend of Palestinian terrorists and Muslims in general, then he would have been surrounding himself with such people. Instead he has surrounded himself with fiercely pro-Zionist and pro-Israeli hawks like Joe Biden, Hillary and Rahm Emannuel.

So there seems to be a disconnect between what the people you post are claiming with regards to Obama and his past, and what he is actually doing.

Obama has since his election swung very strongly to the right. And the hard left is already very disappointed, with some talking of “betrayal”.

This is a relief to me, but it has also made me question the veracity of the information that has and is still being written about Obama from some on the Right.”

Lee, that is a perfectly valid question.

Quite frankly, it is too soon to know the final answers.

I do not doubt that Obama had serious links with people like Bill Ayers and the extreme left wing of Chicago politics, and that he wrote and said a lot of seriously leftist things that would not be out of place in a Chris Trotter column. I think he still won the election in spite of those things, not because they are not true. One of the most disturbing aspects of all this is that so many people could swallow a line like “just a guy in my neighbourhood” or “this is not the Jeremiah Wright I knew”, given the actual evidence; who do you believe, Obama or your lying eyes? Lots of people chose to believe Obama, because they wanted to believe Obama, not because the evidence didn’t exist, that Obama was further to the left than Bernie Sanders or Harry Reid or Joe Biden or all the other various Keith Locke/Jim Anderton of US politics types that would never have stood a chance of a Presidential Candidate nomination.

Nevertheless, even if my worst fears are true, would Obama now be appointing Bill Ayers types to plumb positions? Yet clearly, the fuss now coming from the hard left in the USA shows that THEY beleived that Obama was “one of them”. But what might happen if O. did throw a few choice posts their way?

No, let me express my worry in this way. I sincerely hope the USA has some other means of launching an ICBM counterstrike if President O. won’t answer the red telephone at 2 AM.
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November 24, 2008 7:46pm
Redbaiter

Good article by Victor Davis Hanson here:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/11/ten_random_politically_incorre.html

Excerpt-

The public education system is essentially wrecked. No longer can any professor expect an incoming college freshman to know what Okinawa, John Quincy Adams, Shiloh, the Parthenon, the Reformation, John Locke, the Second Amendment, or the Pythagorean Theorem is. An entire American culture, the West itself, its ideas and experiences, have simply vanished on the altar of therapy.

This upcoming generation knows instead not to judge anyone by absolute standards (but not why so); to remember to say that its own Western culture is no different from, or indeed far worse than, the alternatives; that race, class, and gender are, well, important in some vague sense; that global warming is manmade and very soon will kill us all; that we must have hope and change of some undefined sort; that AIDs is no more a homosexual- than a heterosexual-prone disease; and that the following things and people for some reason must be bad, or at least must in public company be said to be bad (in no particular order): Wal-Mart, cowboys, the Vietnam War, oil companies, coal plants, nuclear power, George Bush, chemicals, leather, guns, states like Utah and Kansas, Sarah Palin, vans and SUVs.
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November 24, 2008 7:47pm
PhilBest

MyNameIsJack, Hayek wrote 50 years ago, in “The Intellectuals And Socialism”, that ownership of media has no effect on the direction taken by the journalists within it; in fact I think he said something like that edicts from above to not be so left-wing, would have the opposite effect.
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November 24, 2008 7:51pm
georgebolwing

Every four years, the US Congress publishes a volume called “United States Government Policy and Supporting Positions”, or the Plum Book, since it lists all the plum positions in the Government.

The 2008 edition is 210 pages long and covers 7,000 positions in the Legislative and Executive branches of government, from the Architect of the Capitol to the Vietnam Education Foundation, that may be subject to non-competitive appointment. It includes the names and salary grades of all the actual non-competitive appointees (many senior positions in the US are actually held by professional career staff) .

Except for those appointed by one person: Vice President Dick Cheney. Appendix 5 (the very last page), repeats the VP’s claim that his office (and his office alone in the who US Government) is part of both the Executive and the Legislature, and thus he is not subject to the disclosure rules that apply to others. Like the President!!

Unfortunately, the Congress decided not to challenge this view, so we don’t know who Cheney’s staff are or what they are paid. Cheney could have made this information public, but hasn’t. Are we, based on the views express in this thread by some, to now assume that the VP is clearly hiding something sinister?

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/plumbook/2008/p210_appendix5.pdf
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November 24, 2008 7:52pm
labrator

Any of those who say there’s nothing to be curious about like to explain the radical differences in the two certificates on this page. Obama’s cert and the cert known to be genuine?

Well Obama’s one is a copy. If the original was lost, you get a certified copy. At the bottom it even says copy and suitable for use as “prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceding”. You can’t recreate birth certificates. In fact, if you look in the middle, you can actually see what looks like a date stamp showing through from the reverse side which says 2007 which is probably when the copy was made and that’s probably the authenticating stamp. Too be honest though I really don’t care that much.
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November 24, 2008 7:53pm
Redbaiter

“If you still make excuses for welfarism and soft treatment of criminals and victim culture ideology, you deserve anything Redbaiter calls you.”

Considering what you have destroyed, and what you have brought upon us, and what you continue to destroy and bring upon us, much more actually, than a few choice profanities.

[Well said Phil]
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November 24, 2008 7:53pm
PhilBest

Superb column by Victor Davis Hanson, Redbaiter, thanks for that link; DO READ IT, everyone.

Wise heads like VDH are always only ever ignored by a society at its own peril.
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November 24, 2008 7:53pm
PhilBest

Another thing I am heartily sick of, is Leftist liberals claiming that people like Sarah Palin and George W. are an obstacle to “science”.

MATE!

It sure as heck hasn’t been Christian Fundamentalists obstructing nuclear power, genetically engineered food, and genome research and a whole host of other areas of “science”.

By “science”, these liberal types mean, areas of “science” that have been hijacked by them, such as evolution theory (THEORY – never proven, yet, in contradiction to the lies they tell the schoolkids) and AGW theory.

Nah. Secular liberals are the real obstruction to science, they are the ones who fear scientific truth most.
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November 24, 2008 8:07pm
Lee

Phil,

thanks for your reply, very thought provoking. For what it is worth, my gut hunch is that Obama is, ideologically and psychologically speaking, basically Bill Clinton, and that should be a relief to those of us on the right. He’s malleable, and when push comes to shove he may display some real steel against America’s enemies. So far I’m impressed by the people he is surrounding himself with.

Lets hope so anyway.

Redbaiter,

thanks for that link, its one I missed. VDH is one of the most intelligent political pundits living today.
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November 24, 2008 8:09pm
PhilBest

John Derbyshire ran a selection of comments from a recent thread on “Gene Expression” blog.

“……..Palin is the most libertarian candidate to run since the Reagan administration … we’re fighting to hold territory, not to take it. We just need to hold off the left till genomics can come through. We’re going to be knocking off sacred cow after sacred cow in the next decade or so …”

“…..The Democrats do not want the genetic discoveries to lead to widespread knowledge about the truth about human differences. The Democrats are really more anti-Darwinian than the fundamentalist Christians who deny the origin of species …”

“……We need to step very carefully as we as going up against the official state religion, namely PC, and until we reach critical mass we’ll be convicted in the media and go straight to the gulag rather than be afforded the benefit of a [S]copes trial. [J]ust think of how many fedguv bureaucrats and NGOs owe their livelihoods to the axiom of equality … an Obama administration will passionately go after the heretics…..”

“…..The Left’s restraints on science do not get publicized. Where’s the big research for IQ genes? Where’s the funding for that? Where’s the big research program for psychometrics? The Left strangled that very thoroughly…..”

“The fact is that it is incredibly difficult even today to do this research. Genomics has been an area of “regulatory oversight” in that the Hapmap and related high throughput SNP

They are now beginning to do so. I cannot disclose more but I am familiar with many of the principals and Harpending’s post is the tip of the iceberg. research started getting published so quickly that the bureaucrats haven’t had time to crack down on the area.”

(John Derbyshire)”About 45 percent of the way down that thread are two gems. First, population geneticist Henry Harpending posts a creepy invitation he got from the National Human Genome Research Institute (yes, that’s a “.gov” you see there in their web address …), who are “planning a workshop to explore the ethical, legal, and social issues (ELSI) raised by research on natural selection in humans.” The impetus for this meeting, they say, is “a growing need for more thoughtful deliberation by genomic researchers, ELSI researchers, science writers and science editors regarding the societal issues raised by natural selection research.” Get the picture?………”
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November 24, 2008 8:10pm
MyNameIsJack

Sorry phil, but anyone who can write …evolution theory (THEORY – never proven… has no scientific credibility whatsoever.

At least evolutionary theory can be tested, is tested; can make predictions, and have predictions tested and confirmed. OTOH, what has Christian Fundamentalist Intelligent Design ever proposed as theory and had tested? Predicted and had proven? A big fat nothing because ID is religion, not science.

Nah. Secular liberals are the real obstruction to science, they are the ones who fear scientific truth most.

And the proof of this theory is…?
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November 24, 2008 8:13pm
Redbaiter

“Too be honest though I really don’t care that much.”

That shows through in your weak attempt at an explanation. Obama’s original is not lost. He merely refuses to allow it to be viewed. Bush allowed his to be seen. McLame allowed his to be seen. What possible good reason could Obama have for not allowing the people of America to see his birth certificate? Why is the “copy” (if so) so different to the original? Don’t you think a media that obsesses over Bush’s National Guard status, or Cheney’s indictment by a halfwit in Texas, that sends plane loads of reporters to dig dirt on Sarah Palin, that alleges her husband fathered her daughter’s baby, could find the time to simply establish the credentials of the man about to be declared POTUS? Where’s the sneering little commie scumbag “journalist” Katie Couric who grilled Palin so intensely with half wit questions?

Imagine the hysterical screaming if Sarah Palin had refused to show her birth certificate, or any of the other documentation listed above. I repeat my original assertion. This is a massive failure of the mainstream media to do their damn job. As they have failed to do their job on so many issues regarding Barack Obama. They are a partisan disgrace, and if there ever is a civil war, some of them may bitterly regret their treason to their profession. In more ways than one.
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November 24, 2008 8:17pm
PhilBest

Completely appreciate that, Lee.

You know, I definitely do not mind if my worst suspicions are not realised. It would be good if Obama is a malleable Clinton type President and does nothing in his term that would endanger the security of the US and the world.

I just feel that America has reached a dangerously lax state if someone like Obama can become President that easily; as I said, America has a tendency to get caught napping and tighten up only after the event, and also as I said earlier, the fact that no-one that far Left has ever stood a chance before, not even another charismatic black guy, Jesse Jackson, that was a GOOD thing as far as showing American’s alertness to the implications of people’s backgrounds.

Mark Steyn put it this way about Obama; “good luck betting the future on that” i.e. the belief that he would repudiate his career up till now, once elected.
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November 24, 2008 8:20pm
PhilBest

And, MyNameIsJack, all the “missing links” in the fossil record………?

Sorry. We’re talking SERIOUS totalitarian-style subversion of truth, here. And we all wonder how ever the Nazis got away with it…….?
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November 24, 2008 8:23pm
MyNameIsJack

Now here’s a thought –

Just why does it matter if Obama is a US born? Sure, its in the rules. But maybe that’s a rule that’s outdated anyway.

How many of you would be wanking yourselves silly over a President Arnie? WOW! Arnie as Prez and Post Turtle Palin as Veep, you guys wouldn’t know where to stop… 🙂
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November 24, 2008 8:24pm
Redbaiter

MyNameIsJack = Long tailed primate with computer. Don’t waste your time.
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November 24, 2008 8:25pm
MyNameIsJack

Phil, what “missing links in the fossil record”?

And just what “truth” does ID convey?
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November 24, 2008 8:26pm
MyNameIsJack

Primate yes, but long tailed no. Just like you redblatherer. Just like you.
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November 24, 2008 8:28pm
Redbaiter

Phil- I reckon Obama will end up so hated, (by his former supporters) he’ll be lucky to make it through one term. They’re all waiting for him to pay their mortgages and put gas in their car, and bring them cable TV for free, and he can’t deliver, (he can though make things a lot worse for them) and they’ll be as pissed off as hell then that they ever voted for him. He’s in big trouble, and its already starting.
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November 24, 2008 8:35pm
wikiriwhis business

“I reckon Obama will end up so hated, (by his former supporters)”

Judging by human nature, you’re probably not far wrong Red

He’s made big promises to change America and people are wanting to see a lot of that in 4 years.

They were saluting Christ with palms and crying for his crucifixion in the same week

Just see what we’ll be saying in 12 months.
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November 24, 2008 8:46pm
labrator

Obama’s original is not lost. He merely refuses to allow it to be viewed.

Proof?

That shows through in your weak attempt at an explanation

What part of my explanation is weak? It even says copy on it, which I highlighted. Paper technology has changed significantly in 46 years, if you got a copy of your birth certificate now it would be significantly different from your original.
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November 24, 2008 9:13pm
Lee

The “fossil record” are a few bones and skeletons that could fit in a cardboard box in the trunk of a car. The missing links in this so-called “record” are all the intermediary evolutionary stages between those skeletons that scientists admit should exist in vast numbers but have so far not been found.

Macro-evolutionary theory (amongst other pet theories beloved by secular fundamentalists) is increasingly coming under attack from secular scientists themselves.

Oh and ID is a set of theories that ask reasonable questions, not a religion.
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November 25, 2008 8:56am
PhilBest

Thank you, Lee.
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November 25, 2008 11:53am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, I fail to see on that original thread, that my “3 cheers for Redbaiter” specifically referred to that comment of his.

It was the only thing he had said in three hours, and your applause for him came in the middle of a long discussion between you and me, and was posted in your first post following his stream of insults. If you really were cheering for something he had said long before, and not the only thing he had said in three hours, or were just randomly cheering him on because of your respect for him… Well, it’s a bit far-fetched, don’t you think?

But as Vidkun Quisling would have deserved strong language, I think Redbaiter is well within rights a lot of time. To use a topical example, look at it this way: there would be no dead Nias and Lillybings and Kahui twins, without that damned, abominable, satanic, “Long March”. If you still make excuses for welfarism and soft treatment of criminals and victim culture ideology, you deserve anything Redbaiter calls you.

If I disagree with your position, I deserve irrelevant streams of abuse and ad-hominem fallacies? That’s what you’re saying now? Perhaps you could give some kind of specification of exactly how much I would have to agree with you before you would disapprove of infantile name-calling in lieu of a reasoned discussion.

Try to imagine what you would think of someone who said to you, “If you defend capitalistic property rights, you deserve any stream of abuse that is directed at you.” Would you respect that person to be able to have adult, rational discussions with you about those issues on which you disagree?
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November 25, 2008 12:09pm
Lee

I think there is far too much personal abuse in the comments, and I have been guilty of it myself. Nobody is likely to change their mind on an issue if they are being verbally abused.
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November 25, 2008 1:19pm

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