General Debate 29 December 2008

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Grant Michael McKenna

On June 19th a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel was declared; the actions of local media in covering that ceasefire show their inability to be impartial in their coverage of events. The truce was violated by forces operating out of Gaza within a few days- with few reports here of the fact that Hamas was violating the truce. Israel’s decision to avoid military retaliation meant that the truce was defined as being intact, creating a definition where only Israel could breach the truce.
Now that Israel has responded to six months of missile attacks we doubtless will learn from Mike McRoberts that Hamas is a peace-loving organisation forced to defend itself…
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December 29, 2008 8:20am
expat

Personally I think we should stop reporting ALL news about Israel and Palestine.
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December 29, 2008 8:21am
Glutaemus Maximus

Thought Desmond Decker and his band members were long gone!!
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December 29, 2008 8:30am
billyborker

Well GMK, its quite simple. If the terrorist state of Israel had been placed where it belonged, in Germany, the Palestinians wouldn’t be subject to this on going trauma.
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December 29, 2008 8:31am
expat

Are you saying the Germans are terrorists Bork Bork? The Germans I know are very nice people. Do you have race hate problems re: Germans?
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December 29, 2008 8:34am
Redbaiter

“Are you saying the Germans are terrorists Bork Bork?”

Who cares what he’s saying? He’s a brain damaged attention seeking narcissistic child. There was one on the plane yesterday screaming his fucken head off. Little arsehole just needed strangling.
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December 29, 2008 8:35am
expat

Very true Red.

Do you think Jamie Oliver would countenance his antics? (Listening to the fat toungued twat cooking Quail, Pheasant and Pigeon).

Thats the trouble when you fly cattle Red. Its called public transport.
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December 29, 2008 8:38am
Redbaiter

“Minister calls for more cuts in petrol prices
4:00AM Monday Dec 29, 2008
By Vaimoana Tapaleao

Energy Minister Gerry Brownlee has urged oil companies to drop petrol prices, warning them not to try to cash in on the many holidaying New Zealanders on the roads. He says he believes oil companies still have room to cut prices because of the low price of crude oil and the strength of the kiwi dollar.”

———-

Gerry Brownlee pandering to the knuckle draggers. Jezuz. I gave him some kudos for ending the ban on non PC lights, and now he’s waffling on about petrol prices. The Nats just cannot seem to develop consistent ideological positions. Brownlee has to go for this idiocy. The Nats just have to start differentiating themselves from wishy washy socialist dipshits, and Gerry’s politically incoherent grand standing does nothing towards this objective. Fuck off Gerry. You just don’t get it.
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December 29, 2008 8:44am
expat

Where in New Zealand:

If, hypothetically, I was going to buy a block of land / ‘lifestyle block’ upon returning to the land of the long dole queue, where would I look.

A number of criteria:

1) good schools
2) Not in bum f*ck middle of nowhere i.e. deliverance country is a no no.
3) a fairly urbane village or centre close by
4) not Waiheke

(Gerry is Keys lispy twat Mallard, usefull but an encumbrance)
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December 29, 2008 8:45am
Don the Kiwi

Hamas have been spoiling to have a scrap with Israel ever since they won the “Election” in Gaza. Israel has demonstrated a considerable degree of restraint – until now.

Hamas are now getting what they were trying to instigate for the past few months.

Sadly, there are many civilian casualties, because Hamas use their civilians as human shields – arseholes.

But the Israeli response is in no way proportional. As always, the innocent suffer.
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December 29, 2008 8:48am
Don the Kiwi

expat.

That depends upon the size of your wallet.
There are some very nice blocks around here in Tauranga – Te Puna, Pyes Pa, Welcome Bay etc. all within 15 minutes to town. But the land around here is quite expensive.
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December 29, 2008 8:53am
LUCY

Taken from the Hamas Charter. If anyone believes there is any other way for Israel they are dreaming.

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”

Ami Isseroff
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December 29, 2008 9:07am
Neil

A couple of days ago a friend and I watched the supposed great blockbuster “Australia”. I went with an open mind, looking to a good story and some good visuals of Australia.
Within the first minute the film highlighted the “stolen generation” matter, then we were in for 2 and a half hours of rewritten history, often very inaccurately. Probably some trendy Jewish Hollywood producer!!!!!!!!
I have to say that that movie was poppycock historically.
Naturally every aboriginal was perfect while just the odd trendy white(Nicole Kidman) was in favour.
In the movie the whites sent a lot of children to an island off Darwin, subsequently was bombed by the Japanese and even invaded by Japanese. I would like to know if Japanese troops ever got within half an hour of Australia ? I don’t think they did, another case of rewritten liberal slippery history.
When will someone like Jane Campion or even Jane Kelsey(!!!!!!!!!) produce a PC movie about New Zealand with peace loving natives being cut to the sword by the vicious Europeans.
Sure we Euro’s did some stupid things but not all was bad.
The age of Discovery was part of the Enlightenment but perhaps we should all have stayed at home in the UK and let our maori folk live their peaceful tranquil lives.
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December 29, 2008 9:12am
Barnsley Bill

Expat……..
Kerikeri
decile 9 high school, decile 9 and decile 10 primary’s. One private school (springbank)
Best weather in the country (todays rain notwithstanding)
good doctors surgeries without queues, two good supermarkets, two airlines flying daily to auckland, many beaches within a few minutes driving.
If you want acres you are either a keen gardener/ horse person or like me a miserable bastard who does not want to see or hear the neighbours. Keri can give you all this plus more. I personally have eaten bananas and pineapples that I grew myself
And I would buy a block with a house already built. Prices have plummeted.
You could get a few acres within 10k of Kerikeri with a modern 4 bed double garage with pool and sheds for around 600k at the moment.
As luck would have it I know just the place. Email me via my blog for viewing times!
Testimonial as to the “wonderfullness” of this property should be available from Mr Farrar..
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December 29, 2008 9:21am
billyborker

Modern Israel exists as Europe’s response to the persecution of European Jews in Europe. It was Europe’s problem, and it should have been solved in Europe.

Instead of displacing Palestinians to create Israel, Germany should have given territory to create a Jewish State.

[DPF: And by this logic the Palestinian refugees are also Europe’s problems, so France should give up some territory for a Palestinian state]
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December 29, 2008 9:24am
Brian Smaller

“But the Israeli response is in no way proportional. As always, the innocent suffer.”

But I guess one has to ponder exactly what is meant by a proportional rsponse? Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel over the last six months. Israel dropped several hundred bombs on designated targets in response. Perhaps Israel should line their launchers up and fire randomly into Gaza every time a mortar round or Qasam rocket comes their way instead.
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December 29, 2008 9:24am
Redbaiter

What the head line should really be-

Herald version-

TV and drama expert to take up top job across the Tasman. Caterina De Nave, the guiding light behind many of the country’s most popular television dramas – from Shortland Street to bro’Town and Outrageous Fortune, is leaving her job as TV3 drama and comedy commissioning boss to take on a similar role with the public service network SBS. TV “She is the best drama and entertainment commissioner New Zealand has ever had,” said Jane Wrightson, chief executive of New Zealand on Air, which has handed tens of millions of dollars of taxpayers’ money to De Nave projects.

Truth (in Redbaiter’s humble opinion)-

Gramascian propagandist and state tit sucker crosses Tasman for job with gang of commie rabble. NZ’s positive, Australia’s negative. What a shame Jane Wrightson and her whole useless sponging outfit aren’t on the same damn plane.
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December 29, 2008 9:27am
Brian Smaller

Billy Borker – plans were underwya to establish a Jewish state in Israel in the 1920s, well before the events of WWII. You know nothing about this other than the revisionst hisotry you learn at Uni or the Peace Group you belong to. Why don’t you go and help the Palestinians in their hour of need. I am sure they would welcome a fellow mujahadeen like yourself. Twat.
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December 29, 2008 9:27am
Ryan Sproull

Now that Israel has responded to six months of missile attacks we doubtless will learn from Mike McRoberts that Hamas is a peace-loving organisation forced to defend itself…

They’re not missiles. Missiles are self-propelled and guided. These are rockets. And in those six months of attacks, not one Israeli has been seriously injured or killed. (Happy to be corrected on that, but I couldn’t find any sources listing injuries or deaths, and found several news sources asserting no Israelis have been injured or killed by Palestinian attacks in the last six months.)

As Don said, the Israeli response is in no way proportional. It’s difficult to call it a response at all. Police stations in civilians areas bombed. Both Israeli and Palestinian sources agree that the majority of the 150 dead, 400 injured were Hamas militants, with some undefined percentage of civilians, including children, killed.

But in retaliation against attacks that have killed and injured no one? 100 tons of bombs?

And the far less sexy statistics on how many sick elderly and children have died as a result of embargoed medical supplies in the last six months will never make the news. Still, on the bright side, by now the Palestinians must be approaching a 100% diabetes-free population.
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December 29, 2008 9:29am
Ryan Sproull

But I guess one has to ponder exactly what is meant by a proportional rsponse? Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel over the last six months. Israel dropped several hundred bombs on designated targets in response. Perhaps Israel should line their launchers up and fire randomly into Gaza every time a mortar round or Qasam rocket comes their way instead.

Brian, the “thousands of rockets” figure – where do you get it?
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December 29, 2008 9:30am
billyborker

Brian, I am well aware of such plans, and the Balfour Declaration, as well as the history of Irgun and the Stern gang. But, I stand my my point that the main support for Israel’s establishment came from guilt ridden Europeans.

Israel had no right to exist in palestine

[DPF: So you don’t recognise the UN as having any sort of authority in international disputes?]
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December 29, 2008 9:32am
Redbaiter

Neil above on the movie “Australia”.- “The age of Discovery was part of the Enlightenment but perhaps we should all have stayed at home in the UK and let our maori folk live their peaceful tranquil lives.”

Watch this video on New Zeal. It explains why there’s support for this kind of divisive garbage.

http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2008/12/must-see-video.html#links

Hat tip to Angus.
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December 29, 2008 9:34am
Brian Smaller

Sorry – I shoul dhave said rockets and mortar rounds. So far in 2008 it is over 1500. Been about c3500 in last six years.

So, Israel is being disproportionate because it has targetting systems? Simple, fire blindly into Gaza – one shot each time one comes the other way. Would that suit you better Ryan? Would that be “fairer”.
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December 29, 2008 9:44am
Ryan Sproull

So, Israel is being disproportionate because it has targetting systems? Simple, fire blindly into Gaza – one shot each time one comes the other way. Would that suit you better Ryan? Would that be “fairer”.

Yeah, it’s an interesting question. You could almost call it proportionate in that it proportionately reflects the resources available to both sides.
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December 29, 2008 9:47am
expat

Bork bork bork bork bork –
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December 29, 2008 9:48am
billyborker

Israel had no right to exist in palestine

[DPF: So you don’t recognise the UN as having any sort of authority in international disputes?]

That’s a whole other debate, but I don’t see the role of the UN as being arbitrating an “international dispute” when one of those “nations”, Israel, is illegitimate to begin with.

[DPF: Yeah King George III also doesn’t see that pesky USA as legitimate also]
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December 29, 2008 9:49am
Ryan Sproull

That’s a whole other debate, but I don’t see the role of the UN as being arbitrating an “international dispute” when one of those “nations”, Israel, is illegitimate to begin with.

What makes a state legitimate?
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December 29, 2008 9:55am
goodgod

Yes, I’d like to know how Gerry Brownlee has authority to set petrol prices in the major oil companies. I guess if he was concerned about gouging helpless and hapless motorists over their innocent and fun loving holiday, he’d remove all government taxes on fuel – just as a good will measure. I mean really, won’t someone save the motorists?

On the upside, he seems to have annoyed the oil barons. No way the left can suggest the VNZRWC are puppets of oil men.

Tobacco is their game. 😆

I say, has anyone tried the new blend?
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December 29, 2008 9:57am
goodgod

What makes a state legitimate?

What makes a good apple pie?

What’s the best coffee?

If I were building an igloo, how would I go about it?

Where can one find a good cobbler these days?

Yes friends, answers to these questions and more…
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December 29, 2008 10:00am
expat

Barnsley says “…(or like me) a miserable bastard who does not want to see or hear the neighbours. Keri can give you all this plus more..”

I can go with the miserable bastard who does not want to see or hear the neighbours part.
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December 29, 2008 10:00am
philu

did you know this..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/rap-music-originated-in-medieval-scottish-pubs/

phil(whoar.co.nz)..a.k.a…’the lone voice at the back of the blogosphere’..
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December 29, 2008 10:02am
Brian Smaller

Philu – there is a reason you are the lone voice at the back of the blogosphere. No-one can understand a thing you write.
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December 29, 2008 10:04am
PhilBest

# billyborker (117) 0 4 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 9:24 am

“Modern Israel exists as Europe’s response to the persecution of European Jews in Europe. It was Europe’s problem, and it should have been solved in Europe.

Instead of displacing Palestinians to create Israel, Germany should have given territory to create a Jewish State.”

[DPF: And by this logic the Palestinian refugees are also Europe’s problems, so France should give up some territory for a Palestinian state]

TOUCHE, DPF. Full marks for all your little retorts on this thread; you are right on the nail.

billyborker (117) 0 3 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 9:49 am

“….Israel had no right to exist in Palestine….”

Oh, did Moses and Abraham and all those guys hang out in the general vicinity of Hamburg and Dusseldorf and Berlin, BillyBorker?
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December 29, 2008 10:10am
tknorriss

billyborker: “That’s a whole other debate, but I don’t see the role of the UN as being arbitrating an “international dispute” when one of those “nations”, Israel, is illegitimate to begin with.”

So, given that:

a) The practicalities of the situation are that Israel isn’t going anywhere, dispite your disapproval.
b) You don’t approve of an independent mediator such as the UN trying to find a peaceful solution.

How, exactly, do you propose that the conflict should be ended? Do you see a peaceful solution that both sides can live with, or is the only solution you can see is Israel being wiped off the face of the earth?
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December 29, 2008 10:14am
PhilBest

# Ryan Sproull (1090) 1 3 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 9:47 am

“So, Israel is being disproportionate because it has targetting systems? Simple, fire blindly into Gaza – one shot each time one comes the other way. Would that suit you better Ryan? Would that be “fairer”.”

“Yeah, it’s an interesting question. You could almost call it proportionate in that it proportionately reflects the resources available to both sides.”

Oh, so what you and BillyBorker are saying, Ryan, is that you support Iran or Syria or whoever, passing modern, targeted and more-devastating weaponry to Hamas, so that Hamas’ killing of Jews can be made more “proportional”? Why should I derive some other meaning from your comments, seeing that you seem to be oblivious to the possibilities for peace that are represented by Hamas simply ceasing to try to kill Jews at all?
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December 29, 2008 10:15am
Brian Smaller

“b) You don’t approve of an independent mediator such as the UN trying to find a peaceful solution.”

Except that the UN is not an independent mediator when it comes to Israel. They all but call for it’s destruction.
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December 29, 2008 10:18am
expat

Yeah yeah, still. again.

Now, on the much more exciting topic:

NEW ZEALANDS BEST LIFESTYLE BLOCK LOCATION

discuss.
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December 29, 2008 10:19am
PhilBest

Ryan Sproull:

“….Both Israeli and Palestinian sources agree that the majority of the 150 dead, 400 injured were Hamas militants, with some undefined percentage of civilians, including children, killed……”

Nice, fair point, Ryan.

“…..But in retaliation against attacks that have killed and injured no one? 100 tons of bombs?…….”

Ryan just because Al Quaeda “have killed and injured no one” LATELY, would that mean that if we identified some bases and armouries and training camps belonging to them, it would be immoral to wipe them out, and any casualties suffered by the nation sheltering them would also be the sole fault of the attackers?
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December 29, 2008 10:21am
grumpyoldhori

Expat, just stay away from Central and you will be right.
We are a miserable bunch down here.
Damn near as bad as those sister chasing , twelve fingered, two headed Cantab types.
Might I suggest Palmerston North, full of culture it is 🙂
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December 29, 2008 10:21am
tknorriss

Brian Smaller: “Except that the UN is not an independent mediator when it comes to Israel. They all but call for it’s destruction.”

Good point. I withdraw “such as the UN” from my comment.
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December 29, 2008 10:22am
PhilBest

# expat (1756) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 10:19 am

“Yeah yeah, still. again.

Now, on the much more exciting topic:

NEW ZEALANDS BEST LIFESTYLE BLOCK LOCATION

discuss.”

I don’t have time to discuss it, but I would opt for the area of the coast between Nelson and Mapua.
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December 29, 2008 10:23am
Ryan Sproull

Oh, so what you and BillyBorker are saying, Ryan,

I’m afraid I can only speak for myself.

is that you support Iran or Syria or whoever, passing modern, targeted and more-devastating weaponry to Hamas, so that Hamas’ killing of Jews can be made more “proportional”?

I do not support that.

Why should I derive some other meaning from your comments, seeing that you seem to be oblivious to the possibilities for peace that are represented by Hamas simply ceasing to try to kill Jews at all?

The comment to which you are replying was me agreeing with Brian Smaller that the question of proportionality is a tricky one. I assume that the rest of your comments in this post are meant for BillyBorker, rather than for me.
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December 29, 2008 10:25am
Brian Smaller

PhilBest – ryan, Bork and fellow travellers don’t care about anything other than the triumph of Islamic fascism and the destruction of the illegal state of Israel. In their eyes the terrorists in the Middle East can do no wrong. They are the example of Stockholm Syndrome. Or better yet, they Love big Brother (in this case BB is guys like Khaled Meshal and Nasrallah.).
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December 29, 2008 10:25am
goodgod

If you were looking for an investment piece, while you thought about where to live, expat, try Port Waikato. There’s just enough there now to show that it will soon be a development spot.
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December 29, 2008 10:26am
grumpyoldhori

Semites killing each other, why should we give a flying fuck.
Oh, but I do want that Jewish traitor who was born in NZ and tried to help Israel steal kiwi passports back.
We still have the death penalty for treason do we not, we can string the bastard up and then give him a fair trial.
Told you I was a liberal 🙂
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December 29, 2008 10:27am
Brian Smaller

“The comment to which you are replying was me agreeing with Brian Smaller that the question of proportionality is a tricky one. I assume that the rest of your comments in this post are meant for BillyBorker, rather than for me.”

I don’t think it is tricky at all. Israel should use every weapon at their disposal to kill every hamas terrorist there is. If these guys hide and or conduct their operations from schools, hospitals and housing units, then tough luck to those around them. A few more nimby Palestinians and there would be fewer civillian casualties.
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December 29, 2008 10:27am
expat

Thanks GOH, BB, PB, goodgod – I’m thinking that in 12 months time it could be a good time to trawl for bargains. I will look up your rec’s.
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December 29, 2008 10:30am
PhilBest

billyborker (117) 0 5 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 9:32 am

“…..Brian, I am well aware of such plans, and the Balfour Declaration, as well as the history of Irgun and the Stern gang. But, I stand my my point that the main support for Israel’s establishment came from guilt ridden Europeans……”

AH, so it is a simple matter, where the Arab-Islamic imperialists of the Palestine region is concerned, of NOT feeling or expressing your guilt regarding the genocide of Jews from the region; the rest of the world should simply accept that as evidence of the moral right of the Arab-Islamic imperialists.
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December 29, 2008 10:30am
Patrick Starr

Borker do you think the Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Persians, Romans, and Macedonians felt any guilt?
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December 29, 2008 10:31am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan just because Al Quaeda “have killed and injured no one” LATELY, would that mean that if we identified some bases and armouries and training camps belonging to them, it would be immoral to wipe them out, and any casualties suffered by the nation sheltering them would also be the sole fault of the attackers?

I think there are relevant differences between al-Qaeda and Palestinian militants that make the situation different. For one, al-Qaeda members elicit from me a lot less sympathy than Palestinian militants, as Palestinians have a genuine and valid grievance, whereas al-Qaeda seem motivated differently.

I don’t think “the nation sheltering them” is an accurate way of describing innocents killed in such attacks. And al-Qaeda is far more likely to be holed up in a less densely populated area as the Palestinian territories.

What I do think is that one innocent life is worth the same as another, no matter what their ethnicity or nationality, and that when innocent deaths are an inevitable consequence of a military action, the action can be accurately described as intentionally killing innocents.

The question is: what does the IDF hope to achieve in this strike? Are they punishing militants for rocket attacks? Are they trying to reduce militants’ numbers to prevent future attacks? Perhaps both? Maybe, but what will the long-term effect be? The families of every one of those children and parents killed in the bombings now have a reason to join militant organisations, and perhaps are emotionally broken enough to be talked into suicide bombing.

I suppose that I would like a response, “proportionate” or not, that is likely to tend towards peace in the long term. I do not believe that this action will move things in that direction.
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December 29, 2008 10:43am
Owen McShane

Expat
Where in New Zealand?

Right here in Kaiwaka where there are well priced sections on the edge of the Kaipara Harbour, (Ive got two for sale) and good schools, and good village shopping centres nearby.
eg Kaiwaka has an excellent cheese shop/delicatessen, an Italian bread shop (great ciabatta), a fine wine shop, a gelato shop and an Italian restaurant (just opened).
And broadband.

Fish on the Kaipara and surf at Mangawhai.
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December 29, 2008 10:44am
Ryan Sproull

PhilBest – ryan, Bork and fellow travellers don’t care about anything other than the triumph of Islamic fascism and the destruction of the illegal state of Israel.

Brian, please do not lie about me.

In their eyes the terrorists in the Middle East can do no wrong.

Another lie about me.

They are the example of Stockholm Syndrome. Or better yet, they Love big Brother (in this case BB is guys like Khaled Meshal and Nasrallah.).

And a third lie.

Brian Smaller, someone disagreeing with you is not a justification for you to list a series of lies about them. I have told no such lies about you, and if you can’t handle someone disagreeing with you without you resorting to such tactics, I suggest that the internet is not the place for you. Or maybe it’s exactly the place for you, come to think of it. But discussions with adults is not the place for you.
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December 29, 2008 10:48am
cha

#expat

If you’re looking to the provinces I’d suggest you look at the great city of Wangavegas.
Top schools,Collegiate and St Georges prep, an enclave of yappie health professionals
living in the city, kids at the schools, so lots of doctors and dentists and best of all a
large and near new brick and tile house on a couple of hectares of westmere loam
will set you back $700 to $850k.
A very temperate climate, forty minutes to Palmerston north, two and a half hours to Wellington, two hours to
the ski fields, two hours to Taradise and the best surfing in the country and some of
the best fishing going, blue cod anyone.
Downside, mayor micky, a wee bit windy, but the westmere loam country is far enough inland
so the wind isn’t a worry, an old school and very conservative population and a local economy
that meanders on, never really booms or busts.
I reckon I live in the best little city in the west, IV2 will back me on this, with lots going for it and
very little to fault it on.
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December 29, 2008 10:51am
Glutaemus Maximus

The State of Israel was created at the behest of American Policy.

The British and French territories of the Levant were all looked at as a basis of ‘Repatriation’ of Jews from all over the World.

In fact it wasn’t the German Jews most affected, most had bailed at the turn of the Century due to Institutional Anti-

Semitism in the Deutche – phone world.

The Jewish de-population in the ‘Final-Solution’ was most obvious in Poland, Baltic States, and Belorus. etc.

The Eastern tribes were much poorer, and less integrated.

Eventually Palestine was carved out of the British Territories as the most likely area, and that was driven by requests from Jewish Lobbyists in the States.

My problem with the whole situation was the lack of thought, vision or concern for the Palestinians in Situ.

This has been the eternal sore and festering wound that the radicals have feasted on.

You can’t turn the clock back, but there should have been more consideration as to the consequences of this lack of

foresight. However the Palestinians have been dreadful ‘guests’ in most of their brother’s and cousins lands.

Ask the Jordanians, Egyptians, or Lebanese.

I don’t know the answer, as the Palestinians have transcended into their own cause celebre.

Not sure they even want to be settled in their ‘Unpromised Land’
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December 29, 2008 10:53am
Don the Kiwi

Billy the Pig Porker.

Of course Israel has the right to exist.
The territory was taken by conquest – the same way that their land was taken from them in the 7th.century by the saracens. They won it back in 1948. It is the land they have lived in for thousands of years. The Pallestinians – the ancient Phillistnes – came from a neighboring area which is now Lebanon.

Let’s hear another lefty wing knuckle-dragging example of you brilliance.

On second thoughts, just piss off.
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December 29, 2008 10:56am
reid

People who blindly defend Israel as if it’s the aggrieved party are total hypocrites. If Iran was doing exactly what Israel does and used the same ‘justification’ those very same people would be up in arms.

Gaza is not ‘Hamas’ it has 1.5 million people in it who are being collectively punished with global assent.

Israel broke the truce first, on 5 November with a raid that killed 6.

Conditions in Gaza are intolerable yet the world hears nothing. Here’s a summary.

Furthermore, Israel is not attacking missile launchers. It is attacking the civil infrastructure of a government elected by the Palestinian people. The selection of targets is what gives away that the real agenda is to wreck Gaza rather than to stop the Qassams. If Israel really wanted the Qassams to stop, they would give the Gazan police the equipment and supplies to hunt down the people shooting the rockets. Instead the Israelis are doing everything they can to make sure the Gazan police are unable to do anything at all. One has to wonder why that is?
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December 29, 2008 11:01am
Brian Smaller

palestinian Militants are the same as AQ. They sing from the same songbook of Islamic domination and death to anyone who is not muslim.

Ryan – Boo hoo. You sound like a typical anti-Israel leftie. Sorry if I offended you. Which particular Hamas leaders do you feel sympathy for if not Meshal?
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December 29, 2008 11:02am
Ryan Sproull

Israel broke the truce first, on 5 November with a raid that killed 6.

Reid, do you have a reference for this?
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December 29, 2008 11:02am
reid

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=33024
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December 29, 2008 11:05am
bharmer

# grumpyoldhori (473) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 10:27 am
“We still have the death penalty for treason do we not … ”

No, we don’t. It was repealed later, but repealed nevertheless Abolition of the Death Penalty Act 1989 No 119
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December 29, 2008 11:05am
wreck1080

Bloody british pound. NZ dollar is nearly at record highs against it.

I thought the nz economy was bad, british is the worst
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December 29, 2008 11:07am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan – Boo hoo. You sound like a typical anti-Israel leftie.

I prefer to think of myself as an anti-insanity leftie. It is just very frustrating when you get lumped in with all kinds of people you’ve never met just because you say one or two similar things on one or two very specific issues.

Sorry if I offended you. Which particular Hamas leaders do you feel sympathy for if not Meshal?

I have sympathy for the Palestinian people. Hamas as an organisation would have to make some alterations to its charter before I could consider being fond of it. But it draws its militants from people who have personally suffered – lost farms to Israeli settlements, lost family members to Israeli missile strikes. While I can’t condone their terrorist actions (targeting of civilians), I also can’t imagine what my mindset would be had I suffered from similar conditions.

Al-Qaeda, on the other hand, seems to consist of Qutbist nutters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb).
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December 29, 2008 11:15am
goodgod

While I was watching the video on demoralisation, destablisation, crisis, and normalisation…

with some glee, I admit, at the ends of leftist intellectuals…

I remembered reading a book about the collective personality of the Russian people and an element they colloquially refer to as “Toska.” Hearing the russian speak about the methods of modern maxist-leninist revolution I couldn’t help notice that it played strongly on that collective Russian trait. (A popular generalisation no doubt, as all collective lables are, but not entirely untrue.) Artists will be familiar with it – at least in the infancy of their careers. And it shouldn’t come as a surprise then that those same types gravitate to leftist ideals. But, America and the western world can look forward to some counter-cultural relief. The state of Toska is not indefinitely sustainable and is always succeeded by a period of rationalism and individualism.
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December 29, 2008 11:16am
Inventory2

Bang on cha! Get rid of the Mongrel Mob, Black Power and Michael Laws, and Wangavegas would be paradise. And one you forgot – full membership of Castlecliff Golf Club – $650pa
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December 29, 2008 11:26am
cha

Enter your desired target and then Nuke it!
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December 29, 2008 11:31am
Chris G

Violence breeds more violence. Why cant Israel and Hamas understand this?

I think its stupid to defend either side. As if Israel bombing the shit out of gaza will stop terrorist attacks. Whilst the hypocrisy of the Hamas political leader sitting back in Syria in a mansion telling his men on the ground in Gaza to launch the third infitada and blow themselves up…. while he watches?

Tell you who never helped matters…. the US giving $3 billion a year in arms to their designated Sheriff of Arabia – Israel.

If my neighbour was stockpiling a shit load of guns, I’d start to get a little uneasy also.
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December 29, 2008 11:36am
PhilBest

Ryan Sproull (1092) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 10:43 am

(PB) “Ryan just because Al Quaeda “have killed and injured no one” LATELY, would that mean that if we identified some bases and armouries and training camps belonging to them, it would be immoral to wipe them out, and any casualties suffered by the nation sheltering them would also be the sole fault of the attackers?”

RyanS:”……I think there are relevant differences between al-Qaeda and Palestinian militants that make the situation different. For one, al-Qaeda members elicit from me a lot less sympathy than Palestinian militants, as Palestinians have a genuine and valid grievance, whereas al-Qaeda seem motivated differently…..”

We have argued this before, Ryan, but once again, here is the reality about the “Palestinians” “legitimate grievances”. There have been numerous cases around the world, of competing claims by different races or cultures, to the same piece of land. We have bits of land between Germany and France, between Serbia and Bosnia, between Russia and Poland, between India and Pakistan; to name but a few. In some cases, ancient hatreds seem to have been buried and peaceful coexistence achieved, irrespective of the issues of which nation possesses the disputed territory.

In other cases, it has been necessary for a compromise solution to be imposed by the international community through the UN. These compromise solutions involve a physical separation of the incompatible peoples, with the displacement of significant numbers of both. Obviously, the solution designed will attempt to be as fair as possible, and draw borders that require the minimum amount of displacement of peoples. This was the case with the UN-designed “1946 borders” of Israel and Jordan and a “Palestinian State”. However, this solution assumed a peaceful coexistence, and did not allow for defensibility of the borders of the new Jewish State; in fact one would even wonder if the Europeans involved had any intention of the new State surviving at all, when the facts on the ground at the time are considered. I mean, a State that over a significant amount of its length, is 15 miles wide, between the Mediterranean sea and its sworn enemies………get real?

OK, the Jewish State embarrassed its creators by daring to survive, and in the process, taking defensive positions beyond its original borders while reasonably awaiting end-of-conflict non-aggression agreements. Note that NO JEWS remained in “Palestinian” or Arabic areas, while several hundred thousand Arabs remained within the borders of Israel. This should tell us a lot about the moral status of the adversaries; but no, Israel’s detractors choose to focus solely on displaced Arabs, rather than displaced Jews and their legitimate fears in the event that they remained in Arab dominated areas.

The point that I find is crucial, when discussing these issues with New Zealanders, is that almost everyone has no concept of the size of the territories in dispute. This is not France and Germany; or India and Pakistan. We are talking about a State, Israel, that is about the size of the lower North Island of NZ from Wanganui to Wellington, only, at its narrowest point, no wider than the Kapiti Coast. We are talking about territories disputed by the “Palestinians”, that are about the size of Upper Hutt. Imagine the Kapiti Coast being populated by Jews, and the overlooking ranges being populated by “Palestinians”. Would you deny the Jews the right to hold onto at least the first range of hills overlooking their towns, in the absence of clear, sworn, and demonstrated peaceability on the part of the Arabs? What we are talking about here, is a tacit “Final Solution” that you can either endorse or reject; what you choose says a lot more about you than it does about Israel.

There are surrounding nations that are kin to the “Palestinian” Arabs; Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia; these nations are in total a hundred times the size of Israel, hundreds of thousands of square kilometers. Yet the possibility of the absorption of the displaced “Palestinians” by these nations never comes up; the focus is entirely on 18,000 square km Israel being demanded to relinquish 4,000 square km of strategic territory that virtually cuts it in half, to people who remain avowedly devoted to Israel’s destruction.

I have said this before and will keep saying it. If the “Palestinans”, and Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia were all Christian, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or anything except Islamic, the descendants of the displaced “Palestinians” would all long since have got themselves a life in the land to which they had been displaced and welcomed with open ams; in many cases merely a few kilometers from where they originally lived. Are there ANY territorial disputes anywhere in the world where Islam is involved, where this has happened? Cyprus? Bosnia? Kashmir? East Timor?

Look at India and Pakistan. How many Hindus in Pakistan? Nix. Nada. Nil. How many Muslims in India? Tens of millions. Which country still has trouble with the other side attacking it, demanding that their rights be acceded to? How many Hindu demands for a right to live in peace in Pakistan where their ancestors came from, backed up with terror attacks in Pakistan? Ever?

The international blindness to the existential threat that is Islam, in favour of an obsession with the so-called crimes of the tiny, imperilled Jewish state, can only be explained by reference to the biblical and the supernatural. It is not explicable on rational, humanist grounds. And the inability of people like Ryan Sproull to acknowledge this, merely strengthens the case against them.
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December 29, 2008 11:42am
PhilBest

# Brian Smaller (561) 2 0 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 10:27 am

“The comment to which you are replying was me agreeing with Brian Smaller that the question of proportionality is a tricky one. I assume that the rest of your comments in this post are meant for BillyBorker, rather than for me.”

“I don’t think it is tricky at all. Israel should use every weapon at their disposal to kill every hamas terrorist there is. If these guys hide and or conduct their operations from schools, hospitals and housing units, then tough luck to those around them. A few more nimby Palestinians and there would be fewer civillian casualties.”

Brian Smaller, anyone would think you had just read THIS:

Gaza clash impending – Israel air strikes versus Palestinian long-range missiles
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report

24-25 Dec.: “The fifty or so missiles Hamas sent crashing into Israel Wednesday, Dec. 24, represented only a quarter of its capability of up to 200 missiles per day on a par with Hizballah’s barrage against Galilee in the 2006 Lebanon war.

They can reach a distance of 42 km – an area far broader than the strip taking hits from Gaza Wednesday which was delimited by Ashkelon to the north and Netivot to the east. Therefore an outer rim of 30 locations 30 km distant from the Palestinian enclave has now been connected to the Homeland Command’s early warning system, including Kiryat Gath, Kiryat Malachi, the Lachish Region and Ashdod.

The Israeli security cabinet meeting Wednesday approved military action to extinguish the escalating Palestinian offensive which Wednesday left a trail of 57 shock victims – half of them children – and wrecked homes, vehicles, shops, workshops and roads. The ministers took into account that Hamas might counter effective Israeli air strikes in Gaza with its long-range missiles.

Former national security adviser Giora Eiland urged the government in a radio interview to start treating the Gaza Strip like a neighboring hostile state and hold its Hamas regime responsible for the insupportable missile aggression. Israel must fight back – not just against the missile teams, but go for the belligerent Palestinian government’s infrastructure, even if 100 civilians are killed every day, because this would finally give Hamas a strong incentive to live in peace instead of making war.”
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December 29, 2008 11:43am
calendar girl

Expat: Re your search for a lifestyle block location, unlike Owen and Barnsley Bill, I don’t have a property to sell you. However, you could do worse than consider Franklin District, the centre of which is Pukekohe. Goodgod has already suggested Port Waikato within the district, but from your brief spec list I suspect (with great respect to PW) that it may be a little isolated and, ahem, ‘unsophisticated’. Picking up on your specific requirements:

1) good schools
Primary Schools – Bombay (decile 8, roll 350), Ramarama (10, 167), Ararimu (9, 130) by way of examples.
Secondary Schools – Pukekohe High School (6, 1600), ACG Strathallan (fully independent school and college, primary & secondary, established 2001 at Karaka, roll of 1100 – for ‘rich pricks’!).
As well as local options, good rail services from Pukekohe and Papakura provide transport for many teenagers to attend top Auckland schools.

2) Not in bum f*ck middle of nowhere i.e. deliverance country is a no no.
If you stay within 5-6km of the Southern Motorway (best on the eastern side of the motorway), you can drive to Auckland City in 35-40 minutes, a bit longer at rush hour. Hamilton is about an hour south, mainly motorway / freeway now almost to Huntly. Bustling Manukau City Centre and the delightful Botany Town Centre about 25km away. Franklin’s outdoor attractions are outstanding – e.g. the Waikato River, the Hunua Ranges and the wild West Coast beaches of the beautiful Aphitu Peninsula stretching north from Waiuku to the Manukau Heads.

3) a fairly urbane village or centre close by
Pukekohe (pop. c. 20,000) is a reasonably wealthy servicing town for farming and market gardening, and boom town of the Auckland region. Excellent range of shopping, plenty of reasonable cafes and restaurants. (Best eatery by far is “Bracu”, a fine cuisine restaurant in rural Bombay on the 130-acre Simunovich olive estate – it is one of the Auckland region’s finest restaurants – but the old Hotel du Vin / Spa du Vin restaurant is not to be overlooked either.)

Let me know if you want any more information.
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December 29, 2008 11:45am
Inventory2

Interesting editorial in the Herald this morning

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/12/in-defence-of-owen-glenn.html
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December 29, 2008 11:47am
Chris2

Anybody heard what happened to ex Immigration CEO Mary Anne Thompson when she was scheduled to reappear in Court on 12 December regarding her fraud charges?

There’s been no subsequent reporting of the case at all in the media, that I can find.
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December 29, 2008 11:50am
Ryan Sproull

PhilBest,

By legitimate grievance, I mean more their suffering over the last several decades, rather than the question of who should control what land. But a struggle in defence of what they see as their land is still far less offensive to me than al-Qaeda’s religious zealotry. Though, personally, I find the notion of an ethnically specific state, whether it’s a “Jewish state” or “white America” or anything else, absurd and undemocratic.
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December 29, 2008 11:54am
PhilBest

Glutaemus Maximus (1013) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 10:53 am

“The State of Israel was created at the behest of American Policy.

The British and French territories of the Levant were all looked at as a basis of ‘Repatriation’ of Jews from all over the World….”

Etc…..

Glutaemus, that is not a bad posting, and you are one of the good guys on Kiwiblog, but please read mine of 11.42AM above and tell me what you think.

Whoever’s policy it was to create Israel, which of these nations actually made any guarantees of Israel’s security in the event of the inevitable invasion by the surrounding, much more numerous and much more well-equipped Arabs? I cannot understand why more people do not come to the conclusion that the creation of the state of Israel was not merely an unsaid finishing off of the Nazis “final solution”; ship the surviving Jews to Israel and let the Arabs finish what the Nazis didn’t. The overwhelming opinion of the chattering classes at the time, was that the new State would not survive the inevitable invasion, and that security guarantees were essential; these, however, were not forthcoming.
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December 29, 2008 11:56am
reid

“Tell you who never helped matters…. the US giving $3 billion a year in arms to their designated Sheriff of Arabia – Israel.”

Yes Chris, if AIPAC wasn’t so powerful the world would be a better place. Isn’t it extraordinary how influential the 3 million US citizens who claim to be of Jewish descent are in US politics?

If Obama gets taken out, the world gets another Israel-first President. We’ve just had one, I don’t think we can stand another.
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December 29, 2008 11:59am
PhilBest

Ryan Sproull:

“……I don’t think “the nation sheltering them” is an accurate way of describing innocents killed in such attacks. And al-Qaeda is far more likely to be holed up in a less densely populated area as the Palestinian territories…..”

Oh, if “the nation sheltering them” is not accurate, try “the nation that voted them into government”.
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December 29, 2008 12:00pm
Ryan Sproull

Oh, if “the nation sheltering them” is not accurate, try “the nation that voted them into government”.

That’s fair enough, though it’s an interesting step to take, seeing civilians of a nation being accountable for the actions of their government. I’m not sure I’d like to follow it to its logical conclusions.
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December 29, 2008 12:02pm
southtop

Expat
Interesting question about lifestyle blocks and so many choices. Nelson, like Tauranga is becoming ‘gods waiting’ room with so many retired types. However across the top of the south there are some interesting possibilities. As an ex-farmer please keep in mind the hours of upkeep required to manage a lifestyle block.
South Island Locations:
South of Nelson/Marlborough too cold in winter
West Coast: web feet required and the occasional sound of banjos in the valley’s
Across top of South (highest sunshine hours in country and very rare instances of Far North floods):
Marlborough: can be very dry and windy.
Nelson East: Some nice blocks very close to the city although Nelson City Council can play havoc with any development
Around Waimea Plains: similar to Marlborough with possible irrigation limitations. Close to Nelson without the city council. Some possibilities here although the town of Brightwater has recently been renamed by the locals as BRITwater.
Hills between Nelson and Motueka: depending on location plenty of water for irrigation and views over Tasman Bay. The is one company attempting to develop lifestyle blocks where the owners of the blocks contract the management of olive groves and vineyards planted on their blocks back to the company to maintain. Potential win/win here depending on the contract. The block owner gets a quantity of wine at the end of each season, the property is maintained enabling either relaxation or work in other parts of the region without having to work ALL weekend tending the block.
Plenty of water around Motueka township, although Nelson and Richmond are trying to take it now. This enables all sorts of crops to be grown. This area is the only part of the country which can grow crops like hops and tobacco commercially.
Golden Bay: Banjos have been replaced by a requirement to speak German although a beautiful spot it is a journey over the Takaka Hill to the Nelson region.
Overall the Nelson Region has good schools, a bit over an hours flight to Jaffaville, 1/2 hour to Windville and 3/4 flight to ChCh. Good culture of arts etc and mix of nationalities calling the place home and banjos mainly heard only in small valleys.
good luck with the search!
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December 29, 2008 12:03pm
Jack5

Neil wrote above:”When will someone like Jane Campion or even Jane Kelsey(!!!!!!!!!) produce a PC movie about New Zealand with peace loving natives being cut to the sword by the vicious Europeans”

Campion has already done a Deliverance job on early white settlers in the pompous, slow, ponderous, PC-leftist-judgment-laden film the Piano.

Read a bit of history and you find a lot of these early white pioneers were sterling folk, both those who started white families and those who intermarried with Maori.

Come to think of it, why hasn’t anyone made a good film about von Tempsky, the colonial guerrilla warfare leader? As long as it’s not made by some dumbfuk leftist more interested in pushing ideology than in telling a good story.
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December 29, 2008 12:05pm
AG

PhilBest

“Oh, if “the nation sheltering them” is not accurate, try “the nation that voted them into government”.”

Interestingly, that is the same logic used by all those “Islamofascists”, etc as justification for attacks on citizen institutions in the West (i.e. the twin towers) … if you live in a country that votes in a government, then you are responsible for all that government’s actions. Collective guilt. All well and good, until you ask yourself – are you OK with dying for an action taken by the ex-Labour government?
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December 29, 2008 12:05pm
PhilBest

# wreck1080 (224) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 11:07 am

“Bloody british pound. NZ dollar is nearly at record highs against it.

I thought the nz economy was bad, british is the worst”

And guess what; as I keep saying, contrary to the “its all Wall Street’s fault” narrative of the Lefty MSM, the US economy’s fundamentals and the investment flows inbound, and the strength of its dollar, are all signs that the various crises affecting economies all over the Western world, are more home-grown than exported, and that goes for NZ every bit as much as everybody else. Wall Street did not run Iceland’s economy into bankruptcy, the soft Lefty economically ignorant Icelandic government did that. Just like the Klarkists did to NZ, only the full consequences have yet to become apparent.
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December 29, 2008 12:06pm
grumpyoldhori

If Israel believes they will stop the rockets by bombing Gaza they are kidding themselves, it will not stop Hama from using their mortars or from launching rockets.
The only way they can stop Hamas is with a ground invasion.
But good luck to the IDF in fighting in those built up areas, they will take some casualties in doing that.
I notice Hezbollah has been supplying Hamas with anti armour weapons, I wonder if the IDF will wander into Gaza the way they wandered into Lebanon.
In that case they whined how unfair it was that Hezbollah had the ability to ambush the IDF at times.
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December 29, 2008 12:09pm
reid

“The overwhelming opinion of the chattering classes at the time, was that the new State would not survive the inevitable invasion, and that security guarantees were essential; these, however, were not forthcoming.”

Which is why Israel worked closely with South Africa to develop nukes, Phil. Now that they have them however they are essentially invulnerable to invasion and that’s been the case for 3-4 decades. Not to mention their US alliance that guarantees military assistance in event of attack.

In all that time, Israel has never moderated their hardline position and everytime peace is in danger of breaking out, something happens to sabotage it and in addition, the Israeli justifications are transparently false.

For example, do you really think the February Israeli elections have no bearing on this latest attack?
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December 29, 2008 12:13pm
PhilBest

# AG (196) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

PhilBest

“Oh, if “the nation sheltering them” is not accurate, try “the nation that voted them into government”.”

“Interestingly, that is the same logic used by all those “Islamofascists”, etc as justification for attacks on citizen institutions in the West (i.e. the twin towers) … if you live in a country that votes in a government, then you are responsible for all that government’s actions. Collective guilt. All well and good, until you ask yourself – are you OK with dying for an action taken by the ex-Labour government?”

Good argument, but……

What would be the chances of a government with a manifesto like Hamas’ manifesto getting elected in NZ, or the USA, or anywhere other than in the Islamic world? Having said that, I am sympathetic with any closet true humanists trapped under Hamas rule, just as I would have been with any trapped under Hitler’s rule or Stalin’s rule. I guess if I was trapped under such a regime, I would prefer to die as collateral damage at the hands of outside powers bringing it down, rather than in one of the regime’s torture dungeons after speaking out against it.
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December 29, 2008 12:15pm
Brian Smaller

“Though, personally, I find the notion of an ethnically specific state, whether it’s a “Jewish state” or “white America” or anything else, absurd and undemocratic.”

At least in Israel you can be a Jewish atheist. In Gaza under Islamists you are a dead atheist.
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December 29, 2008 12:17pm
Ryan Sproull

At least in Israel you can be a Jewish atheist. In Gaza under Islamists you are a dead atheist.

Yes, low-level racism is preferable to murderous religious intolerance. Do you have a reference for the death penalty for atheism under Palestinian law? I can only find the Articles of Basic Law (http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/misc/Amended_Basic_Law.pdf) – translated into terrifying Comic Sans MS – which includes religious freedom, but also says that Islam is the official religion of Palestine. I don’t think you can really have democratic religious freedom and an “official religion”.
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December 29, 2008 12:27pm
PhilBest

reid (1491) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 29th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

“The overwhelming opinion of the chattering classes at the time, was that the new State would not survive the inevitable invasion, and that security guarantees were essential; these, however, were not forthcoming.”

“Which is why Israel worked closely with South Africa to develop nukes, Phil. Now that they have them however they are essentially invulnerable to invasion and that’s been the case for 3-4 decades. Not to mention their US alliance that guarantees military assistance in event of attack…..”

Reid, I was talking about 1946/47. No nukes. And no security guarantees. And no-one expected the newly created state to survive.

And you go on to say:

“In all that time, Israel has never moderated their hardline position and everytime peace is in danger of breaking out, something happens to sabotage it and in addition, the Israeli justifications are transparently false.”

Have you read my lengthier analysis at 11.42AM, Reid? Would you allow a bit of paranoia to the people who live on a strip of land by the sea, the same size as the Kapiti coast, overlooked by people who hate you and have attacked you since time immemorial, and who are backed up by kin who number in the hundreds of millions and who occupy hundreds of thousands of square kilometers? As many of the Arab/Islamic militants have said; we can lose any number of battles and wars and we will still be here afterwards. Israel only needs to lose ONE, and that little strip of land by the Mediterranean will be “Judenrien” forever after.
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December 29, 2008 12:28pm
reid

Phil, Israel has not been under threat of large-scale attack for decades.

Details of past security situations are not relevant to the current situation and even Israel isn’t saying that what it’s doing today is in order to prevent such scenarios you’re referring to.
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December 29, 2008 12:37pm
Owen McShane

RE the Enlightenment and the West.

Clive James has a nice observation in last weeks TLS.
“… we need to remember that it is an indulgence to blame civilization for everything that is not civilized. … While the whole world, including the West, dealt in slaves, only the West came up with the idea of setting them free.”
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December 29, 2008 12:55pm
AG

PB:

“What would be the chances of a government with a manifesto like Hamas’ manifesto getting elected in NZ, or the USA, or anywhere other than in the Islamic world?”

Surely asking that question in itself should ring warning bells – if a society is so desperate/crazed to see Hamas as the solution to their problems, then they’ve been backed into a pretty dark corner (unless you want to subscribe to some kind of reverse-PC claptrap in which Islamic folk just happen to be bloodthirsty by their very nature …).

Also, let’s see what happens in Israel’s upcoming elections – I suspect it’ll elect a government committed to a military solution against “the terrorist threat”… which will then of course justify Hamas in launching attacks on Israeli civilians … which will then justify Israel’s government in “crushing” it … and so we go around again.
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December 29, 2008 1:00pm
Brian Smaller

Ryan – Hamas are a militant Islamist organisation. The penalty for atheism is death. Even Ashok Chaudrey, labour MP admits that is true…but only in an Islamic state. Whether or not they actually kill atheiusts is more a case of atheists keeping their mouths shut.
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December 29, 2008 1:11pm
kevin_mcm

having visited Whanganui over the weekend for the first time in 25 years, I can concur that it is a delightful town – very attractive town centre, good museum, lift inside a hill – what more could you ask for. I have a brother who has lived there for years nd seems to b very happy with the locale.
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December 29, 2008 1:27pm
bharmer

I am dragged to Wanganui only because of family obligations. Nothing else would get me there
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December 29, 2008 1:43pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan – Hamas are a militant Islamist organisation. The penalty for atheism is death. Even Ashok Chaudrey, labour MP admits that is true…but only in an Islamic state. Whether or not they actually kill atheiusts is more a case of atheists keeping their mouths shut.

Yes, I imagine I would be very quiet about all kinds of views under a militant Islamic government.
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December 29, 2008 1:52pm
adamsmith1922

I like Wanganui, though it would be better without gangs and Michael Laws
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December 29, 2008 2:05pm
Owen McShane

expat
I would agree with the ex farmer that be very careful about buying a so called “lifestyle” block.
If it 10 acres or so it is actually a lifetime slavery block.

Any rural residential lot should be manageable with human labour and a ride on mower. Couple of acres max.
Otherwise you have to be prepared to graze large animals.
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December 29, 2008 4:12pm
fredinthegrass

expat

Listen to Owen McS – he is on the money.

If you buy in a rural area you may have a “real” farmer as a neighbour, and he will likely
put animals on your land, and may even pay you for the grazing.

You then get to have the pleasure of a rural ‘outlook’ with none of the hassles.
And believe me, it can be a huge hassle as well as a leg rope.

Happy hunting
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December 29, 2008 5:20pm
fredinthegrass

expat

Listen to Owen McS – he is on the money.
If you buy in a rural area you may have a real farmer as a neighbour, and he will likely
put animals on your land, and may even pay you for the grazing.

You then get to have the pleasure of a rural ‘outlook’ with none of the hassles.
And believe me, it can be a huge hassle as well as a leg rope.

Happy hunting
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December 29, 2008 5:23pm
joeAverage

Got it wrong last night ,the slackcaps won?? but having watched the battle between Ausralia and South Africa on tv3 6.00pm news , real cricket .
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December 29, 2008 6:52pm
expat

Thanks all. Will keep on looking.

To the ex/current farming types out there, thanks for the advice on workload. I intend more styling than slaving so a low maintenance option is prefered 😉
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December 29, 2008 10:20pm
side show bob

expat, for what it is worth farming is the best way of life, not easy but what is. If you have kids there is nothing better but things are getting pretty hard. If you have your heart set on a lifestyle block be careful it’s not as easy as it looks, get good advice, go and ask a local farmer.
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December 29, 2008 10:55pm

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