Genera Debate 12 May 2009

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KiwiGreg

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion/2402192/Who-is-NZs-canniest-CEO

You have got to be kidding me. Even for a puff piece with no research THAT’S their list?
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May 12, 2009 7:55am
Razork

Who will be to blame when Bailey Kurariki kills again?

I voted National for many reasons, not the least of which was to stop giving bail and or parole to repeat offenders.

This piece of shit thinks it’s all a big joke!
He will offend again.
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May 12, 2009 8:09am
Murray

I’d blame Kurariki myself.

But apprently we need to blame everyone but the offender these days.
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May 12, 2009 8:11am
Razork

So true Murray, its always the offenders fault.
But he shouldn’t be given the opportunity to re offend.
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May 12, 2009 8:14am
Grant Michael McKenna

KiwiGreg; perhaps they are hoping to elicit more informed comments from their readers- and claim that as research.

Genera debates are of course arguments about the proper taxonomic classification of something, usually living and fossil organisms. Given that, may I just comment on the McCain citizenship issue- Article two of the US Constitution says that the President should be a “natural born Citizen” or someone who was a citizen when the US was established -the latter is now obsolete, but presumably retained in case vampires are found 🙂

Anyhow, if we are going for bizarre interpretations, how about “natural born” rules out Caesarean section deliveries?
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May 12, 2009 8:15am
Inventory2

It was unusual to see Guyon Espiner so animated on Breakfast this morning – calling the police investigation into the theft of Brash’s e-mails a “cover-up” and a “whitewash” is pretty strong stuff – there’s a very bad odour hanging over this

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/05/whitewash.html
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May 12, 2009 8:26am
bharmer

“I voted National for many reasons, not the least of which was to stop giving bail and or parole to repeat offenders.”

One of the things that seems to go over many heads is that, like most developed countries, New Zealand has a careful and deliberate separation of powers between judiciary and executive.

An election makes bugger all difference to the conduct of the courts, so if that was high on your list of expectations of things to change quickly, Razork, I think you are likely to remain disappointed.

Courts implement law, not policy. I suppose a Bainimarama style coup might achieve what you want.
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May 12, 2009 8:28am
Grant Michael McKenna

Nah- after a coup comes a general election wherein the only question will be which general gets elected.
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May 12, 2009 8:30am
grumpyoldhori

Could some Nat types end up embarrassed if it comes out that a Nat staffer leaked the emails ?
Some young bloke who watched Brash walking the plank and decided he was too old.
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May 12, 2009 8:33am
Murray

“Leak” is a word that has no legal standing. The correct one is “stole”.

If someone had taken Dons car keys and gone for a drive would we be seeing reports of them “leaking” his car?

Labour, Winston Last and Hagar are neck deep in this theft and the police have failed to their jobs. Intentionally.
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May 12, 2009 8:41am
Inventory2

Agree wholeheartedly Murray. And I am still amazed that Hager was not prosecuted for either knowingly receiving stolen property or for using a document that had been dishonestly obtained, for pecuniary gain. After all, without the e-mails, The Hollow Men could not have been written.
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May 12, 2009 8:47am
Ryan Sproull

I’d blame Kurariki myself.

But apprently we need to blame everyone but the offender these days.

If you want to be effective, I’d suggest removing the word “blame” from the equation and start talking about causes. When you look at causes rather than blame, you move towards preventing crimes occurring in the first place, rather than who to feel good about kicking in the balls afterwards.
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May 12, 2009 8:50am
Inventory2

Bullshit Ryan – it’s about time the word “consequences” was re-inserted into the equation. Until young people learn that all anti-social behaviour has consequences, and that they are made to face those consequences, there can be no change in attitudes. If some namby-pamby comes along and tells them that society is to blame, and it’s not really their fault, the downward spiral will continue.
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May 12, 2009 9:09am
Brian Smaller

Ryan – but in the meantime, this guy needs to be locked up where he cannot harm society. He is an habitual criminal. I am not too concerned about the stupid woman who shacked up with him – she made her choice.
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May 12, 2009 9:12am
bharmer

Inventory2 (2935) Vote: 0 0 Says:
May 12th, 2009 at 8:47 am
“… I am still amazed that Hager was not prosecuted for either knowingly receiving stolen property or for using a document that had been dishonestly obtained, for pecuniary gain. After all, without the e-mails, The Hollow Men could not have been written.”

In full expectation of a load of bad karma, I need to point out that if someone who received those emails freely gave them to Hager (for whom I have no brief at all), then no theft has occurred.

At worst, if that were the case, the person who gave them to Hager has betrayed an implied trust, but broken no law. Hager may have done nothing worse than receive a gift that should not have been given.

[DPF: Hager has broken no laws. It is almost certain the person who took the emails did though. Only three people had lawful and legal access to those e-mails (including Don). If it was anyone but those three, then crimes were committed]
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May 12, 2009 9:12am
Ryan Sproull

Bullshit Ryan – it’s about time the word “consequences” was re-inserted into the equation. Until young people learn that all anti-social behaviour has consequences, and that they are made to face those consequences, there can be no change in attitudes. If some namby-pamby comes along and tells them that society is to blame, and it’s not really their fault, the downward spiral will continue.

Inventory,

All you’re saying here is that people feeling like they’re not to blame and that people not having consequences to fear is a cause of crime.

You are also saying that society is to blame for a criminal’s crimes, by not providing strong enough consequences and by not giving offenders a jolly good blaming.
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May 12, 2009 9:13am
NOt1tocommentoften

An interesting reply to DPF’s take on Nat. vs Labour tax cut consequences:

http://publicaddress.net/5875#post5875
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May 12, 2009 9:15am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan – but in the meantime, this guy needs to be locked up where he cannot harm society. He is an habitual criminal.

I agree, Brian. The flip side of this “blame” and “free will” nonsense is that dangerous people are released into society because they have “done their time” and “paid their debt to society” – evening up some invisible scales by suffering an amount commensurate with suffering caused.
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May 12, 2009 9:16am
racer

“Razork
Who will be to blame when Bailey Kurariki kills again?”

Again? Who has he killed before?

“Murray

“Leak” is a word that has no legal standing. The correct one is “stole”.”

By the sounds of it they were only photocopies that Hagar got, so no, none of Brash’s stuff was stolen, you guys would look much less like clowns if you didn’t always resort to trying to use the most emotive language out.

Anyway, Hagar know’s exactly how he got them, so when he says that the person giving them to him isn’t breaking the law, and on top of that, the police find no one to be charged, maybe he’s right, after all he knows a hell of a lot more detail about it than you.

[DPF: You really are a clown if you think something can’t be stolen just because it is a photocopy]
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May 12, 2009 9:18am
bharmer

Kuariki was convicted of the manslaughter of Michael Choy
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May 12, 2009 9:23am
Paul Marsden

Razork (145) Vote: 3 0 Says:

May 12th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Who will be to blame when Bailey Kurariki kills again?

Simple. The judge who gave him bail. Though to be fair, on this occassion the cops did not oppose bail. Perhaps they’re going ‘soft’ too?
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May 12, 2009 9:28am
Brian Smaller

Paul – perhaps they are getting sick of banging their head’s against the wall.

racer you prick – he was part of a group that murdered a pizza delivery man called Michael Choy. They called him into an ambush and beat him to death with a baseball bat for a pizza and about $30 in change.. That is who he killed.
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May 12, 2009 9:33am
starboard

is the frontal part of your grey matter operating today racer?
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May 12, 2009 9:36am
Paul Marsden

Brian. You’re EXACTLY right. Thats why many of the longest serving and most experienced cops have thrown in the towel and left the force. They simply have had enough of been run around in circles by the judicary. They catch the bad guy and the judicary let’s him go, and so it goes on infinitum.
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May 12, 2009 9:37am
racer

From memory he was on lookout, enough to be convicted of manslaughter, not the one kicking the shit out of Choy, but just trying to bring some accuracy to you lots bitch fest.
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May 12, 2009 9:40am
big bruv

While I hate the idea of the families commission if we have to have it then we need more people like Christine Rankin on the board

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/2402725/Christine-Rankin-appointed-to-Families-Commission

This is a bloody great appointment and one that proves that Key is above appointing political lap dogs to positions such as this.
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May 12, 2009 9:41am
Ryan Sproull

From memory he was on lookout, enough to be convicted of manslaughter, not the one kicking the shit out of Choy, but just trying to bring some accuracy to you lots bitch fest.

He looked out before and he will look out again.
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May 12, 2009 9:42am
NOt1tocommentoften

This is a bloody great appointment and one that proves that Key is above appointing political lap dogs to positions such as this.

BB – you don’t think that Rankin is a political lap dog? Interesting take… I completely disagree.
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May 12, 2009 9:49am
Former Plod

Paul and Brian

Right on the Nail!

The most aggravating aspect of the whole ‘current status of the New Zealand Police’, is the politicisation aspect. Labour had the perfect chance to make a substantive difference with the selection of the most appropriate person for the role two years ago. But no, they persisted with their cronyism, in selecting Howard Broad, and therefore by default allowing Lynn Provost/Wayne Annan to continue to make all the policy decisions and promotions.

Meanwhile the man who should have been appointed and who would have overseen the required cultural and operational change, Peter Marshall continues to cool his heels, and do a great job as the Commissioner of the Solomon Island Police.

Lets bring him back, clean out the existing heirarchy and get the once proud department back on track!
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May 12, 2009 9:49am
Paul Marsden

racer (248) Vote: 0 0 Says:

May 12th, 2009 at 9:40 am
From memory he was on lookout, enough to be convicted of manslaughter, not the one kicking the shit out of Choy, but just trying to bring some accuracy to you lots bitch fest.

racer: I’d wager a wee bet that if this bottom dwelling pond life hurt you or, a member of your family (especially whilst out on bail), you’d be singing a different tune.
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May 12, 2009 9:50am
Ryan Sproull

Yeah, Racer. Make you personally involved, hurt you terribly, put you into a disturbed emotional state and THEN see if you still disagree with me, Mr He Was A Lookout!
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May 12, 2009 9:55am
Inventory2

bhamrmer said “In full expectation of a load of bad karma, I need to point out that if someone who received those emails freely gave them to Hager (for whom I have no brief at all), then no theft has occurred.

At worst, if that were the case, the person who gave them to Hager has betrayed an implied trust, but broken no law. Hager may have done nothing worse than receive a gift that should not have been given.

[DPF: Hager has broken no laws. It is almost certain the person who took the emails did though. Only three people had lawful and legal access to those e-mails (including Don). If it was anyone but those three, then crimes were committed]”

Bharmer and DPF – I disagree – check this out – Crimes Act, section 228:

Dishonestly taking or using document

* Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who, with intent to obtain any property, service, pecuniary advantage, or valuable consideration,—
(a) dishonestly and without claim of right, takes or obtains any document; or
(b) dishonestly and without claim of right, uses or attempts to use any document.

Compare: 1961 No 43 s 229A

Section 228: substituted, on 1 October 2003, by section 15 of the Crimes Amendment Act 2003 (2003 No 39).

Hager used the information for pecuniary advantage. He presumably does not write books for the good of his health. He had no right of claim to the Brash e-mails. He obtained the Brash e-mails, by whatever source. Without claim of right to the documents, he used them to write a book.

I’m no legal expert, but I reckon the Police would have every chance of a successful prosecution, IF they were that way inclined. Clearly, they aren’t. The big question is “why not?”.
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May 12, 2009 10:00am
starboard

you really are an offensive little man racer , you remind me of freshly laid dog turd…
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May 12, 2009 10:02am
big bruv

Not1

No I do not, she is a strong minded lady who will not hold back if she does not agree with the direction the government is taking.

I also like the idea that her appointment will get right up the noses of the pinko and feminazi types.
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May 12, 2009 10:05am
NOt1tocommentoften

Racer – while you are correct that he was not the one who battered Michael Choy to death – for pizza and a measily $30 change – he was clearly inculpated in the killing and the law recognised this as such. He was charged and convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 7 years imprisonment.

To say that he was merely a look out is confusing the way the law works in New Zealand. Kurariki was convicted as a party to the offence, recognising that he had sufficient knowledge of the circumstances to sufficiently link his acts and knowledge with the death of Choy. As Kurariki was only 13 at the time of the murder, the Crown also had to prove that he knew what was being done was wrong or contrary to law.

Racer – you’re wrong both in fact and law. His actions lead to the death of a another – so along with others he killed Choy. In terms of the law – you’re wrong here too. He was convicted of manslaughter – as a person that caused the death of another.
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May 12, 2009 10:05am
Banana Llama

If i remember correctly didn’t he beat him around the side of the head with a baseball bat? i could be wrong but that’s a bit more than just being a look out, especially since it caused the death of someone. If that’s the case then no leniency should be shown, one can forgive a stupid mistake or an accident but what he did was neither.
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May 12, 2009 10:06am
racer

The lot of you look like ignorant fucking clowns, but carry on.
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May 12, 2009 10:16am
NOt1tocommentoften

Racer – I am willing to enter into educated debate with you if you wish. But name calling provides few grounds on which to proceed.
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May 12, 2009 10:20am
Banana Llama

No Banana the Llama you are a moron, it was Alexander Peihopa who struck Michael Choy on the left side of the head with the baseball bat.

😉
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May 12, 2009 10:23am
racer

“NOt1tocommentoften
Racer – I am willing to enter into educated debate with you if you wish. ”

Yes in a legal sense he is guilty of manslaughter.If rational educated debate is what we are after, some level of accuracy is appropriate. He was on look out, someone died, he deserves to be in jail for a very long time, he contributed to the death of someone, but that in my opinion is different to being the one bashing him over the head or sticking a knife in someone.
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May 12, 2009 10:27am
Paul Marsden

racer: Regardless of what the ‘law’ may say or, may not say, are you comfortable about having the likes of Kuraraiki and his ilk, roaming free in society?
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May 12, 2009 10:47am
racer

How should I know, I’m not an expert in psychology or in anyway qualified to judge the risk he poses to society?
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May 12, 2009 10:54am
big bruv

I see that “Tane” has given up the fight over at the Labour party and EPMU funded blog, it seems he has woken up to the fact that the people of NZ have turned away from socialism.
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May 12, 2009 11:00am
big bruv

Yahoo!

200 jobs to go at the Social Development Ministry today, good work Mr Key, please keep it up.
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May 12, 2009 11:02am
Paul Marsden

racer: You may have opposing views, but I assume you are a responsible member of society. You are therefore qualified to express an opinion. There is no such thing as an ‘expert’ and besides, if you examine the record of psychiatrists in their assement of whether criminals like Kurariki are to reoffend, its abysmal. Besides, pyschiatrists are some of the craziest people I know.
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May 12, 2009 11:02am
Murray

Why don’t you go hug it out with Kurariki Ryan.

That’ll fix him for sure.
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May 12, 2009 11:06am
racer

I’ll do my best then, it’s hard for me to judge considering I’ve never talked to him or observed his behavior. I would say though that group that attacked Michael Choy he is probably the first one who should be released (not saying he should have a short sentence, just that the ones doing the beating part should have a longer sentence). He’s been in jail for something like 7 years now? Leaving him in there too much longer could risk institutionalizing him, how ever he shouldn’t be released until he has some skill set and a decent job to go into.
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May 12, 2009 11:10am
racer

“big bruv (3559) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
May 12th, 2009 at 11:02 am

Yahoo!

200 jobs to go at the Social Development Ministry today, good work Mr Key, please keep it up.”

Go JOHN KEY!!

None of this pissing around with 7 percent unemployment Mr Key, stop being a pansy, man up and go for 20% you PC flower!!!
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May 12, 2009 11:14am
Shunda barunda

I just posted this on frog blog:

A girl in my home town was recently done for importing class A drugs from the UK. Get this.
She got a $750.00 fine and 150 hours comunity service!!

I currently owe the IRD more than $2,500.00 in “fines” for being a week late with paye (amount $46.50) last year and a day late with a GST return, which at the time I couldn’t pay because some rich pr%@k didn’t pay his bill, and I had no cash flow. The paye was late cause my wife had just had a baby.
Because I was let off a similar grevious offence a few years ago(I still payed what I owed), I have no mercy this time.
Don’t tell me we have a “justice” system in NZ, I would be better off importing drugs than slaving my guts out for my 30k(before tax) a year.

This woman got off cause daddy was rich, the cost to the tax payer would have been well in excess of the $750.00 fine.
I have no confidence in the “justice” system, at least if the cops can taser these little twerps they will learn a lesson even if some soft judge lets them off.
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May 12, 2009 11:20am
Ryan Sproull

Why don’t you go hug it out with Kurariki Ryan.

That’ll fix him for sure.

That’s not what I said, and you know it, Murray. Address the points or don’t respond at all.
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May 12, 2009 11:26am
Komata

Did anyone else see ‘Red John’ Minto on 60- Minutes last night?

It was his first-ever visit to South Africa and he was shown the results of his and other anti-apartheid activist’s actions – squalid housing, home evictions and cronyism (for starters).

True to type he persuaded the locals facing another home eviction to join together to resist (‘one is never as strong as more than one – united you will stand and overcome’- or words to that effect).

He then decamped to leave the newly-consolidated villagers to take on the collective might of the SA police (or military). No thought of standing in solidarity there – running back to New Zealand is SOOO much safer – the cowards way IMHO – but typical.

He DID allow that ‘I never fought apartheid for this’ (the evictions etc) BUT never thought to apologise to those who were living in sub-standard conditions as a direct result – or being discriminated-against because of their colour (Cape Coloured’s) as a direct result of his own efforts.

(or to offer to actually HELP to solve the problem in some way – financially, by working locally etc, etc.)

And when a squatter-village resident had the temerity to suggest that he was actually better-off under apartheid than now, the Minto arrogance and sneer was palpable and very obvious.

He did of course make a very big thing of the non- appearance of Afrikaaner rugby supporters he had invited to a debate, but this was not exactly unexpected, and, of course, his comments were the usual anti-white diatribe.

Sadly, Minto is unrepentant, and eqally (noticably) unwilling to actually HELP those who are less fortunate than himself.

But then, for him, words always were very cheap – and action takes effort.

I personally think he blew a great opportunity to ‘put his money where his mouth was’ and by actually DOING something, and getting involved at a practical level, give ‘legs’ to his beliefs,

Sadly, he bypassed the chance in favour of an old, very tired and no-longer relevant ideology (to which he is still pasionately attached it seems)

And yes actions DO speak a lot louder than words, but perhaps doing nothing is the measure of the man?
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May 12, 2009 3:09pm
Chthoniid

# racer (258) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 6 Says:
May 12th, 2009 at 11:14 am
200 jobs to go at the Social Development Ministry today, good work Mr Key, please keep it up.”

Go JOHN KEY!!

None of this pissing around with 7 percent unemployment Mr Key, stop being a pansy, man up and go for 20% you PC flower!!!

But we get more front-line staff. Social Development isn’t a work-scheme. It’s task is to deliver services the public needs (and pays for through their taxes). It is not there to feather-bed in public-sector employees.

You can’t create jobs by fiat, and you can’t keep them by fiat. You create and keep jobs by providing goods and services to people who want them, at prices they can afford.
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May 12, 2009 3:20pm
Komata

Chthonild

As a flow-on from your very pertinent observation, it would be nice to think that the ‘possibility’ of ‘termination’ and the threat of job loss would improve the service given by some ‘front-line staff – especially the ‘I know everything’ school leavers and young uni’ graduate staff-members who have never actually worked a day in their lives but who make life absolute hell for all those who have the misfortune to come under their control.

One can but hope – but not hold one’s breath.
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May 12, 2009 6:47pm
Komata

The socialists are at it again:

As I type this (at 1908hrs), Campbell Live (on TV3) is running a story about Melissa Lee’s ownership of a production company while standing as an MP. Conflict of interest etc. And it all sounds SOO terrible and SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED!! (So they say – repeatedly!)

Trevor Mallard calls it ‘a gross misuse of public funds’ (which of course he knows a lot about – funny that. . .).

A beat-up with only one intent – to discredit the National party at all costs, and one has to ask:

Is Labour THAT desperate?

Based on previous precedence, I wonder how many hours ‘digging’ and how much money THAT cost?

And the media protests that it is TOTALLY neutral! (cue ‘Tui’ response)

(Note: I don’t normally do a consecutive post, but that’s just the way its worked out)
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May 12, 2009 7:27pm
Steve

Kurariki.
Racer at 11.10am:
I’ll do my best then, it’s hard for me to judge considering I’ve never talked to him or observed his behavior. I would say though that group that attacked Michael Choy he is probably the first one who should be released (not saying he should have a short sentence, just that the ones doing the beating part should have a longer sentence). He’s been in jail for something like 7 years now? Leaving him in there too much longer could risk institutionalizing him, how ever he shouldn’t be released until he has some skill set and a decent job to go into.

Just turned into a soft cock and then digresses at 11.14am

FOXTROT OSCAR
Oxygen thief
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May 12, 2009 8:32pm
billyborker

still waiting, jonkey. Still wair=ting, where the uck is my cycleway?

Why is national so fucking S L O W to do anything?

Come on jonkey and appologists – BUILD THE FUCKING CYCLEWAY!
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May 12, 2009 10:18pm