General Debate 17 May 2010

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Kris K

Yeah, baby!
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May 17, 2010 8:04am
mjwilknz

Is anyone else wondering why alcohol inspectors are getting so smug about cracking down on after balls? “It is mission accomplished,” said Manukau District Licensing Agency inspector Paul Radich. “We were told $55 for all you could drink and now we’re only getting coke. We’re going into town,” said one party goer.

Aren’t the inspectors just sending kids into town to drink at licensed establishments rather than at after-balls? Is that really a good thing?
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May 17, 2010 8:06am
tom hunter

I thought it might be nice to start the week’s GD debates off with some humour – to whit the quote below. It’s from one ‘Habib’ and I found it in the comments section of Tim Blair’s blog article on Mr Rudd’s fall from grace in the polls. I don’t follow Aussie politics that closely so some of the names mean little to me, but the Silver Bodgie is one that does. Aussies certainly have some turns of phrase: read and enjoy:

Word is that the Silver Bodgie was overhead saying that he hates what Dear Leader has done to the country and the party, and needs to go.

Seeing as he’s Billy No Mates and has no factional support, I’d say the knives are being sharpened; the only thing staying their hands is the fact that Woody Woodpecker is even less electable, and highly vunerable over her disastrous lack of supervision over the Builders Early Retirement program.

Who else? Tanner’s likely to get rolled by the Greens, Albanese is a hideous ferret-faced fist magnet, Chris Bowen a Mini-Me Albanese, Shorten and Combet? Too new, and with the whiff of the ACTU about them; looking at the options, it make Hobsons Choice seem like a doddle.

I reckon schadenfreude is a hoot.
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May 17, 2010 8:10am
Pascal

In before the thread is destroyed.
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May 17, 2010 8:22am
Murray

No mjwilknz they are not sending them to do anything. Your premise assumes that the kids HAVE to drink. they do not. Nor do their parents have to pass responsibility for them to someone else.
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May 17, 2010 8:25am
krazykiwi

Luc gushed:

I fully support genuine research ie that which is without a pre-determined conclusion, no matter what the evidence.

Very commendable. And does your most gracious concession to investigative due process extend to climate science… or will you continue to swear by every utterance of the IPCC? Such steadfast allegiance must be emerging as a shakey platform for your ‘world is ending aka CAGW’ diagnosis. I expect it’s time you started backpedalling.

If one has to indulge in conspiracy theories, I take pleasure in that fact that mine involve human resilience and he possibility of learning more about early life in NZ, while yours appear to centre on the futility of humanity, misery and impending global catastrophe.
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May 17, 2010 8:35am
Inventory2

Agree wholeheartedly Murray – I’ve just blogged my own thoughts on this. It seems that Pakuranga College PARENTS played a significant role in organising this “all-you-can-drink” party. You really have to wonder …

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/05/when-will-they-ever-learn.html
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May 17, 2010 8:44am
Murray

Bloody pathetic that so many people cannot function socially without fucking up their own brains first. No doubt the resident expert on self induced brain damage will be along shortly to share his “special” brand of wisdom with us.

We should send him to shcools as a warning to the next generation.
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May 17, 2010 8:52am
mjwilknz

@Murray and Inventory2, I make no presumption that kids HAVE TO drink. I only presume that they WILL drink, particularly if they see that it’s such a controlled activity. If it’s controlled more and more, kids will only drink more and more, simply because it’s seen as glamorous by them and their friends because you’re working so hard to control it.

You guys appear to equate controlling an activity with stopping it. Rather than stop it, however, I believe the evidence indicates that you’ll just drive it underground. I’d be careful before concluding that’s a good thing.
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May 17, 2010 8:59am
big bruv

“loody pathetic that so many people cannot function socially without fucking up their own brains first. ”

Yep, and the Greens want to make it worse by pushing dope onto our kids.
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May 17, 2010 9:00am
dime

RIP RONNIE JAMES DIO

A true legend of music.
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May 17, 2010 9:08am
mjwilknz

@big bruv, better just to leave them smoking up illegally, eh? Perish the thought that we’d be seen to encouraging it by freeing it up a little, eh?

Don’t you think we have a duty to be concerned about the problems illegal use creates (be they gangs, addiction or whatever)?
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May 17, 2010 9:10am
Murray

Explain how “all you can drink” is controlled? Explin why the police should allow an illegal activity to proceed under the guise of “control”.

Explain how the cops are able to explain themselves when somethign goes wrong at the illegal event they allowed to go ahead.

If they go into two to drink they face the regulated procedures of legal establishments and most importyantly they go in small groups. Not the pre-made bottle throwing mob of self rightous inedriated children which is a the damn near certainty of an all you can drink pseudo underground bar.

Now we have a “duty” to be concerned about illegal activity. You weren’t too concerned about illegal drinking just before. Mixed message much?
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May 17, 2010 9:15am
Inventory2

@ mjwilknz (8.59am) – the drinking on Saturday night wouldn’t have been a “controlled activity”. Paying $55 for “all you can drink” is simply an incitement to drink as much as you can; been there, done that.

I was just incredulous that parents were involved in organising this piss-fest, to the point of one of them driving the grog van! How many more James Websters will it take to change attitudes?
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May 17, 2010 9:17am
philu

“..No doubt the resident expert on self induced brain damage will be along shortly to share his “special” brand of wisdom with us…”

are you expecting red-bum-biter to pop in..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 17, 2010 9:20am
big bruv

“Don’t you think we have a duty to be concerned about the problems illegal use creates (be they gangs, addiction or whatever)?”

Yes I do, the trouble is that the Greens do not really want to do anything about the Gangs apart from cuddle them and hand out more of my tax dollars.

As for addiction and addicts, no, I do not want to do a single thing about them other than let them die or lock them up.

It was their choice to take drugs, therefore, it is their problem, I am sick of paying for the shitty choices that others make.
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May 17, 2010 9:27am
Kris K

mjwilknz 8:59 am,

@Murray and Inventory2, I make no presumption that kids HAVE TO drink. I only presume that they WILL drink, particularly if they see that it’s such a controlled activity. If it’s controlled more and more, kids will only drink more and more, simply because it’s seen as glamorous by them and their friends because you’re working so hard to control it.

While your argument sounds very ‘reasonable’, it’s the same kind of justification presented for providing kids with free condoms, and such like, by those promoting the so called ‘Safe-Sex’ message. The argument in both cases is that, “kids are going to do it anyway, so we may as well make sure they do it safely”. If we have the attitude that kids WILL do it anyway, then, we are just condoning and reinforcing such behaviour. No doubt those trying to liberalise the marijuana laws will provide similar justifications.

I think what kids need MORE than anything else is to learn that there are limits to acceptable behaviour, and that they are not mini-adults, and therefore full ‘adult’ rights do not extend to them. The worst thing we did was to drop the drinking age from 20 to 18, as this essentially said 18 year olds (generally 7th formers and still at school) are adults, when clearly this latest spat of underage drinking related problems has proven the point that they are not.

My personal view is that NO school should have functions where any alcohol is present. And if kids show up at school functions half cut they should be sent home with a please explain directed to the parents.
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May 17, 2010 9:38am
big bruv

Who here would have a problem if a little jail house justice was dealt out to the killer bee’s gang member who killed the prison guard.?
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May 17, 2010 9:53am
MT_Tinman

# Inventory2 (4341) Says:
May 17th, 2010 at 9:17 am

@ mjwilknz (8.59am) – the drinking on Saturday night wouldn’t have been a “controlled activity”. Paying $55 for “all you can drink” is simply an incitement to drink as much as you can; been there, done that.

I was just incredulous that parents were involved in organising this piss-fest, to the point of one of them driving the grog van! How many more James Websters will it take to change attitudes?

James Webster?

Was that the thief who stole a legitimately purchased bottle of vodka from his grandmother, drank it quickly when he wasn’t allowed to take it into a party and died?

What has that to do with parents getting together to create a controlled environment where young people can go after a ball and partake of alcohol – instead of much more harmful illegal (as well as legal) drugs – in that controlled environment?

We-know-everything-better-than-you dickheads may not understand this but young people are going to experiment with available social lubricants just as young people have been doing since apes first learned to walk upright.

Every society has created some form of these fairly early in their history.

Far better it be in a relaxed environment supervised and controlled by parents than private parties in public parks where drinking needs to be done quickly and surrepticiously before it’s noticed.

As an aside I suspect the “all you can drink” thing is a wankstain spin on “don’t bring booze, we’ll supply you so we can control what you drink”.

Aside number two; Why does my spellcheck no longer work?
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May 17, 2010 9:56am
Jack5

New topic for a mo…

Trouble at t’mill, Bro. Key!

A well known National Party supporter, D.J. Round, announces in a letter to the Christchurch Press today that he is resigning from the party because of foreshore and seabed proposals.

More particularly because he feels public submissions on the issue have been peremptorily treated by Key and Attorney-General Finlayson.

Round alleges the Government “proposes to sell our birthright for a sleazy little deal with the Maori Party in order to remain in power…”
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May 17, 2010 9:56am
MT_Tinman

# big bruv (6244) Says:
May 17th, 2010 at 9:53 am

Who here would have a problem if a little jail house justice was dealt out to the killer bee’s gang member who killed the prison guard.?

I would.

I’d prefer to see a LOT of “jailhouse justice” dealt out to the scum.
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May 17, 2010 9:58am
krazykiwi

Round alleges the Government “proposes to sell our birthright for a sleazy little deal with the Maori Party in order to remain in power…”

I agree with him. It is a sleazy powerplay. Key is not acting in the best interests of NZers, but in the best interests of those who plan to extend their rule over us.
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May 17, 2010 10:05am
cha

Jail house justice, rotflmao, no matter where he’s sent to he will be a hero with all the perks that go with the status of screw killer.
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May 17, 2010 10:06am
Yvette

The Ball Season format seems to be established as the Ball being the formal alcohol-free function put on by the college, and the After-Ball Party being the student organised, usually secret [until last moment] location, opportunity to drink. It is a ‘traditional’ challenge for male students to provide booze, often with the secrecy involved meaning more potent drinks be involved because you have to carry what you drink. Until this changes, I don’t see much else changing.
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May 17, 2010 10:09am
big bruv

cha

I am talking about the prison guards dealing out their own justice, something like the piece of shit ‘falling down some stairs’
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May 17, 2010 10:17am
philu

so..your formula is open warfare between screws and inmates..eh..?

good one einstein…!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 17, 2010 10:23am
wreck1080

There appears to be a correlation between the banning of physical discipline and increasing violent crime.

It would be interesting to see a timeline showing violent crime rate and marking the points in time where relevant social laws were introduced.

I’d think there would be a 5 year delay between a law being passed and an increase in violent crime (ie, the time it takes for a new bunch of kids to integrate with the new system).
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May 17, 2010 10:40am
big bruv

No Phool, my formula is to crack down on the bastards, take away every possible chance for these scum to be violent, shackle them and arm the screws with tazers and what ever else they need to remain safe.
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May 17, 2010 10:45am
Chthoniid

@wreck1080

I think you will find many correlations to all kinds of socio-economic trends and violent crime. I’m reluctant to attribute violent crime to the fact teachers assault children less at school now.
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May 17, 2010 10:52am
philu

so..permanent lockdown/seige-situation..eh ?

once again..good one..!..einstein…!

(fact check:..the screws union had been complaining about staff number issues at that prison..loud and long..and were ignored…)

and then of course…we could just have the wrong end of the stick with this one..eh..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/norway-has-built-the-most-humane-prison-in-the-world/

“..“..Halden, Norway’s second largest prison, with a capacity of 252 inmates, opened on April 8.

It embodies the guiding principles of the country’s penal system: …

… that repressive prisons do not work … and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society.

“When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape,” Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, murderers and rapists, among others.

“We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people.”

Countries track recidivism rates differently … but even an imperfect comparison suggests the Norwegian model works.

Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway’s prisoners end up back in jail.

In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%…”

(mmm..!!!..what is our recidivist-rate again…?

..just more-of-the-same….but ‘harder’..eh..?

or….?..maybe…?

..a dash of ‘enlightenment’/what ‘works’…in norway..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 17, 2010 10:59am
krazykiwi

@wreck1080 – I think the physical discipline thing is a small part of the wider problem. Over the last 40 years there has been a rolling back of the belief that actions have immutable consequences, that boundaries should be set and enforced, and that there’s no escaping personal responsibility. Add to these the liberal notion that unbridled self-expression is a human right, and we have created a hot-house of societal anarchy. I blame Marxist ideology (and it’s recent social liberal mutants) for much of this shift.
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May 17, 2010 10:59am
krazykiwi

I’m reluctant to attribute violent crime to the fact teachers assault children less at school now

In your opinion, was all coproral punishment assault? Genuine question.
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May 17, 2010 11:01am
Inventory2

Well, if anyone here is able to comment from personal knowledge of the relationship between inmates and officers, it would be Philip Ure …
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May 17, 2010 11:04am
dad4justice

I feel for the slain prison guard, but how the hell do you get “a little jail house justice ” when the gangs run the jailhouse?
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May 17, 2010 11:04am
Kris K

wreck1080 10:40 am,

There appears to be a correlation between the banning of physical discipline and increasing violent crime.

Some people around here have been ‘crucified’ for daring to make such assertions …

Much of the common ‘wisdom’ seems to be along the lines of: “… it’s the recession … it’s poverty … it’s unemployment … it’s the white man’s system not meeting my cultural needs … it’s through not being breast fed …”

Boo bloody hoo, cry me a river!

If all these liberal do-gooder apologists had been given a sound thrashing at an age when it might have made a difference perhaps we wouldn’t be confronted with the social unrest that offends our sensibilities every day.

The real question is, “Who can deny that there isn’t DIRECT correlation between the banning of physical discipline and increasing violent crime.”

Expect the deniers to come out in force to defend their position of faith …
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May 17, 2010 11:06am
philu

“..I blame Marxist ideology (and it’s recent social liberal mutants) for much of this shift…”

right…!..so the reaganiite/thatcherite/douglasite rightwing revolutions..

with their tearing away of social-support/(hope?)..

..their (ongoing..hello dpf..!) demonisation of sole-parents/unemployed/unwell..etc..etc..

..as ‘weak’..and ‘unworthy’…

and their creation of our low-wage economy..

..and a permanent underclass…

..this ‘sewing-the-seeds’ all had nothing to do with the social whirlwind we are now reaping..eh..?

it’s all down to o’l uncle karl marx…eh..?

(btw…you do know that he did predict that a capitalist-globalisation of the worlds’ economic system would be ‘the final stage’ of capitalism..

..just before it ate itself..?

wasn’t he a clever old bugger..!..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

..
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May 17, 2010 11:09am
philu

capitalism really is the political system of exploitation…

..it must have victims/environments to exploit etc…to thrive/survive…

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 17, 2010 11:13am
Chthoniid

@krazykiwi

in the legal sense of the time, no.
But for an institution (like the police) that was permitted to use violence under certain conditions, there were never sufficient safe-guards on the misapplication of this violence. And where the punishment was disproportionate to the offense, then it crossed the line to assault. In my honest opinion.
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May 17, 2010 11:13am
wreck1080

Yep, banning of physical discipline is just one component. But, the people behind the banning of physical discipline are also behind other law changes which cause problems.

eg, you can tell a cop to F**k off now and they can do nothing. Kids know this all too well, and inside their minds the allowable boundaries of behaviour expand beyond what used to be acceptable a few years ago.

Lowering of the drinking age, diluted censorship laws (F word fairly common on some radio stations now) , all contribute to turn kids growing up more quickly than ever.

I think , behind this, are feminist -peacenik hippy/greenie types who project their own personalities into others.

Unfortunately, while such an environment may work for ‘peace around the world’ types, it causes behaviourial issues among others not so hippy-inclined.
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May 17, 2010 11:14am
krazykiwi

If all these liberal do-gooder apologists had been given a sound thrashing at an age when it might have made a difference perhaps we wouldn’t be confronted with the social unrest that offends our sensibilities every day.

Kris, I’m not sure that would have been helpful. There’s a difference between a sound thrashing and measured discipline which may, or may not involve smacking. c.f. the question I just asked Chthoniid, you’d be well aware that some of the sound thrashing meted out at our college could have been classified as assault, some of it quite sadistic IMO. One or two ‘regulars’ spring to mind. Some corporal punishment was not assault though, being administered fairly and resulted in corrected and improved behaviour from the students. I know… I was one of them!
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May 17, 2010 11:14am
Kris K

Chthoniid 10:52 am,

I think you will find many correlations to all kinds of socio-economic trends and violent crime. I’m reluctant to attribute violent crime to the fact teachers assault children less at school now.

So what’s your mate Darwin’s explanation for increasingly ill-disciplined and out of control youth, and the fact that we have escalating crime statistics? Or is this just the next logical step in our evolution?
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May 17, 2010 11:16am
mjwilknz

@Kris K, Murray and Inventory2, I agree that there are problems in the current situation, but, with respect, I question whether more control is what’s needed to solve them. If we make it harder to be seen as an adult, won’t that just make it more important to teenagers that their mates see them as so?

We all want to reduce the problems with underage drinking. I’m cautious that more control won’t just lead to greater problems or at least to problems that manifest themselves in different ways, though.
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May 17, 2010 11:19am
Yvette

“So what’s your mate Darwin’s explanation for increasingly ill-disciplined and out of control youth, and the fact that we have escalating crime statistics? Or is this just the next logical step in our evolution?

Since man reached a point where he can think for himself and react in other than a straight instinctual way to life, is he still subject to evolution? For example has Christ and his teachings changed humankind in a way that is no longer Evolutionary.
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May 17, 2010 11:29am
Murray

Maybe we should just execute the violent scum. Arsehole who like to pick up guns and take peoples earnings away from the fund their drug lifestyle would be good candidates. It would reduce reoffending and overcrowding.

Recycle them into the prison garden. win win win.
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May 17, 2010 11:31am
Kris K

krazykiwi 11:14 am,

Kris, I’m not sure that would have been helpful.

Nothing like a little black and white over emphasis to make a point. 😉

There’s a difference between a sound thrashing and measured discipline which may, or may not involve smacking. c.f. the question I just asked Chthoniid, you’d be well aware that some of the sound thrashing meted out at our college could have been classified as assault, some of it quite sadistic IMO. One or two ‘regulars’ spring to mind. Some corporal punishment was not assault though, being administered fairly and resulted in corrected and improved behaviour from the students. I know… I was one of them!

I was a ‘good boy’ so never needed the cane (although I got the sandshoe once). And while I recall one or two disciplinarians who were perhaps a little zealous in their ministrations, on the whole and like you said, I think the balance was pretty fair. IMO to remove corporal punishment was to remove a major tool in training up youth in the way they should go. And as a result we have essentially lost the ability to ‘correct’ and ‘improve’ students’ behaviour.

Lumen Accipe et Imperti
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May 17, 2010 11:33am
RightNow

phlu, you seemed to be up early today, wet the bed did ya?

It looks like OldLabour in the UK learnt a trick or two from Kullen and Klark, poisoning the well before they left office:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7127819.ece

I also see Barry Brill has a good article about NIWA’s manufacture of temperature increases in NZ, when the raw data shows no increase.
http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2010/05/crisis-in-new-zealand-climatology
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May 17, 2010 11:33am
Chthoniid

@Kris K

Simply by declaring you have already decided socio-economic trends are not a source of violent crime, isn’t substantive enough to back your assertions on corporal punishment.

Your assertion about Darwin & evolution is nonsensical, so I’m going to ignore that.
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May 17, 2010 11:41am
Murray

I stand by the 100% non-reoffending of the executed statisitc.
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May 17, 2010 11:47am
Kris K

mjwilknz 11:19 am,

@Kris K, Murray and Inventory2, I agree that there are problems in the current situation, but, with respect, I question whether more control is what’s needed to solve them. If we make it harder to be seen as an adult, won’t that just make it more important to teenagers that their mates see them as so?

We all want to reduce the problems with underage drinking. I’m cautious that more control won’t just lead to greater problems or at least to problems that manifest themselves in different ways, though.

While I know you’re not suggesting this; if we continue to take away controls do we not invariably end up with anarchy – where there are no controls, and it just ends up in a free-for-all? I’m obviously not saying we should go to the other extreme and have a fully regulated police state, but surely there needs to be SOME regulation, and perhaps this is one instance where this is what is required.

In particular, the fact that kids-will-be-kids shows me that their behaviours need to be regulated, at least to some degree, by outside means – ie parents and schools. We can’t afford to just leave them to their own devices, surely? And recent events just confirm this need to impose some level of control on youth.
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May 17, 2010 11:48am
Murray

Its NOT “control” to allow an illegal activity to proceed.

At some stage in peoples lives they need to work out that breaking the law isn’t accpetable. Before the age of six is best. Its certainly skipped you over.
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May 17, 2010 11:50am
mjwilknz

@Murray, do you stand by the executions that happen when the offender is subsequently found to be not guilty? Doesn’t supporting the death penalty require a lot of faith that the justice system is 100% accurate when the evidence shows it definitely isn’t?
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May 17, 2010 11:50am
Kris K

Chthoniid 11:41 am,

Your assertion about Darwin & evolution is nonsensical, so I’m going to ignore that.

I agree – “Darwin & evolution [are] nonsensical”. 😆
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May 17, 2010 11:52am
mjwilknz

@Murray, I am nothing but a law abiding citizen and I agree that underage drinking is a problem we want to solve. I just question whether regulating all hell out of it is the right was to solve it.

Sorry, I appear to have upset you and my question about the death penalty may have made that more so. It was not my intention to upset you. Since we are all adults here, I presume, surely we can discuss policies as adults without becoming upset.
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May 17, 2010 11:58am
mjwilknz

@Kris K, you don’t accept that having a system of criminal law does represent some level of control? Surely that, in itself, would stop us descending into anarchy, don’t you think? I guess I raise question with why we need more control that a good criminal law system.
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May 17, 2010 12:00pm
Murray

You’d know if you upset me.

You’re also lot if you think this a venue of adult conversation. This is a shark tank. Its not me who needs to grow a thicker skin.
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May 17, 2010 12:01pm
XChequer

Yay! RIP working again – a philu-less existence is one to be desired and treasured.
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May 17, 2010 12:03pm
eszett

While your argument sounds very ‘reasonable’, it’s the same kind of justification presented for providing kids with free condoms, and such like, by those promoting the so called ‘Safe-Sex’ message. The argument in both cases is that, “kids are going to do it anyway, so we may as well make sure they do it safely”.

So, your argument is that they should remain abstinent and should only start drinking when they are married. Sounds reasonable enough
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May 17, 2010 12:03pm
mjwilknz

@Murray, a fair comment. Perhaps I’m hoping for a better level of discussion than what might be found in a shark tank. Have I come to completely the wrong place for that?
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May 17, 2010 12:04pm
eszett

The real question is, “Who can deny that there isn’t DIRECT correlation between the banning of physical discipline and increasing violent crime.”

Expect the deniers to come out in force to defend their position of faith …

How about, who can prove that there IS a correlation and that it is causal?

I know you are not too strong on things like evidence and proof.

But until now you are the one who is making all these claims solely based on your beliefs and only because they support your agenda
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May 17, 2010 12:08pm
Kris K

Yvette 11:29 am,

So what’s your mate Darwin’s explanation for increasingly ill-disciplined and out of control youth, and the fact that we have escalating crime statistics? Or is this just the next logical step in our evolution?”

Since man reached a point where he can think for himself and react in other than a straight instinctual way to life, is he still subject to evolution? For example has Christ and his teachings changed humankind in a way that is no longer Evolutionary.

Interesting question, Yvette.
If I may paraphrase; “Did the coming of Christ essentially halt the evolution of mankind?”

Ignoring for the moment that I think evolution is the largest crock to come along since Adam was a boy, let’s assume the above statement is true. One could then go on to ask, “Was the removal of God and biblical values from the West the cause for mankind to DEVOLVE socially as evidenced by increasing social disharmony as typified by an increasingly violent society?”

Now THAT, Yvette, is the RIGHT question. (for all you ‘I Robot’ fans)
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May 17, 2010 12:11pm
Chthoniid

How about you prove that our society is more violent than it was a few centuries ago first Kris.
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May 17, 2010 12:14pm
Inventory2

@mjwilknz – the level of discussion USUALLY starts out quite well, but frequently deteriorates in proportion to the number of full-stops and question marks which a certain participant throws around with no concern for the correctness or otherwise of his grammar 🙂
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May 17, 2010 12:14pm
Kris K

mjwilknz 12:00 pm,

@Kris K, you don’t accept that having a system of criminal law does represent some level of control? Surely that, in itself, would stop us descending into anarchy, don’t you think? I guess I raise question with why we need more control that a good criminal law system.

You’ve essentially answered your own question. Criminal law is there primarily to deal with adults. When we’re dealing with minors, or those not much older than minors (ie those still at school), isn’t it preferable to have mechanisms other than the criminal justice system to deal with, for example, teenager drinking issues? And may I suggest, again, that a possible mechanism would be parental and school controls be imposed on teenagers, where necessary?
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May 17, 2010 12:22pm
Yvette

“If I may paraphrase; “Did the coming of Christ essentially halt the evolution of mankind?” “

No, that doesn’t quite paraphrase what I meant – which was: since mankind thinks as well as reacts, unlike animals, are changes in society anything to do with the theory of Evolution now? Animals may still be evolving but is man?
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May 17, 2010 12:23pm
mjwilknz

@Inventory2, yes, I had noticed that about the certain participant. 🙂 Don’t people get bored with the constant slagging-off of the Nats/Labour/ACT or the Greens? Maybe not, I guess. Seems awfully dull to me.
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May 17, 2010 12:25pm
mjwilknz

If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. ~Louis D. Brandeis
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May 17, 2010 12:26pm
edhunter

@ dime 9.08am couldn’t agree more the world has lost a true frontman/showman/Rock God RIP Ronnie be it in Heaven or Hell.
Discipline? what we need is bloody good old fashion war, nothing like seeing your mates & comrades blown to pieces in front of your face to sober you up & give you a bit of prespective. And also a chance to offer some crims the chance of serve your country or serve your time with the likely prospect of some of them not coming back or being scared straight.
But seriously not sure if it was file footage or actual footage but the after ball party images I’ve seen dont seem to have to many of the boys dressed as if they’ve just come from a school ball & a $55.00 all you drink is pretty damn irresponsible but I’d like to think that this was at the extreme end of afterballs. Last year my son attended his schools after ball function, yes they were served alcohol each attendee was given 4 tickets redeemable for 4 drinks buses were put on from the ball & then back to a couple of drop off points. Location was kept secret until arrival at function. With the amount of money spent on dresses & suit hire, ball tickets why can’t the party last longer than midnight curfew placed on the offical function?
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May 17, 2010 12:26pm
Kris K

Chthoniid 12:14 pm,

How about you prove that our society is more violent than it was a few centuries ago first Kris.

No need to go that far back, Chthoniid. About 30 years ago should do it …

And if you want me to be your research assistant my going rate is $85 per hour for friends … but for you I’ll do it for $100.
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May 17, 2010 12:33pm
eszett

One could then go on to ask, “Was the removal of God and biblical values from the West the cause for mankind to DEVOLVE socially as evidenced by increasing social disharmony as typified by an increasingly violent society?”

One could also ask how you always manage to come up with so such stupid statements?
Evolution must surely took a sidestep in your case. Although there are some interesting evolutionary theories around religion itself and how being gullible is beneficial.

Anyway here’s a nice talk about violence since biblical times.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html
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May 17, 2010 12:36pm
mjwilknz

@Kris K, other commenters on here were quite concerned about the role of parents because their (apparently supportive) involvement with the after-party from which alcohol was removed on the weekend. It is possible you could convince me how a system of parental/school controls might work, but I remain uncomfortable about efforts to “control” behaviour that teenagers see their seniors undertaking without restraint.
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May 17, 2010 12:36pm
Kris K

Yvette 12:23 pm,

No, that doesn’t quite paraphrase what I meant – which was: since mankind thinks as well as reacts, unlike animals, are changes in society anything to do with the theory of Evolution now? Animals may still be evolving but is man?

Not being an ‘expert’ in evolutionary theory, perhaps Chthoniid is better qualified to answer your question.

Ya there, Chthoniid – IS MAN STILL EVOLVING, or have we reached ‘end game’ ?
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May 17, 2010 12:42pm
Chicken Little

Still got your wisdom teeth Kris?
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May 17, 2010 12:47pm
malcolm

We have more social freedoms than ever before and we’re less contained by automatic deference to authority and establishment. By and large I think that is a good thing and most of us can handle these freedoms. However some parts of society can’t, and they’re giving progress a bad name. If we wait long enough culture may evolve to push out this element, but I suggest we give it a helping hand. A Modest Proposal:

If you’re given a jail term of 6 months or more, you’re offered $10k to be sterilised. No compulsion, just an offer.

I’m not saying that criminality is genetic, but it’s widely accepted that bad parenting produces bad kids. Time in prison seems like a suitable proxy for bad parenting and it’s just an offer.
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May 17, 2010 12:49pm
Repton

Animals may still be evolving but is man?

Of course.

But remember, evolution is _slow_. Come back in a few hundred thousand years and maybe you’ll see some changes starting to emerge. But the 2,000 years since the (alleged 🙂 ) birth of christ are only 100 generations or so.

“Was the removal of God and biblical values from the West the cause for mankind to DEVOLVE socially as evidenced by increasing social disharmony as typified by an increasingly violent society?”

“devolve” is a silly term to use, because it implies that there is some perfect state, some “ideal human form” that we are evolving towards, and therefore it’s possible to take backward steps. But evolution just says “species change or die out as their environment changes”. There’s no end goal.
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May 17, 2010 12:54pm
Chthoniid

@Kris K

No need to go that far back, Chthoniid. About 30 years ago should do it …

And if you want me to be your research assistant my going rate is $85 per hour for friends … but for you I’ll do it for $100.

No Kris, you made a claim that requires some actual evidence for your argument to even get off the ground.
The onus is on you, not me.

PS Secularization didn’t start 30 years ago. An arbitrarily defined starting-point isn’t particularly intellectually honest.
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May 17, 2010 12:54pm
Kris K

mjwilknz 12:36 pm,

@Kris K, other commenters on here were quite concerned about the role of parents because their (apparently supportive) involvement with the after-party from which alcohol was removed on the weekend. It is possible you could convince me how a system of parental/school controls might work, but I remain uncomfortable about efforts to “control” behaviour that teenagers see their seniors undertaking without restraint.

And perhaps that’s the other side of the equation. Parents should lead by example and set the tone for their children. No doubt irresposible parents will beget irresponsible kids – like does beget like, afterall. And of course this highlights the bigger issue of where exactly society is heading. Are we progressing or in fact going backwards?

Of all the social indicators regarding the health of society I think our children and youth are one of the best representations of the current situation. And perhaps we need to start taking heed of these warning signs. These signs have become increasingly evident in certainly the last 30 years, but the real question is, have we gone beyond the tipping point?
Let’s hope not, but I fear we may have …
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May 17, 2010 12:56pm
big bruv

I wonder how bad the news is going to be for the tax payer when Neville Key releases his full and final leaky homes package.
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May 17, 2010 1:02pm
Kris K

Chthoniid 12:54 pm,

An arbitrarily defined starting-point isn’t particularly intellectually honest.

Perhaps ‘intellectual honesty’ is merely a byproduct of one’s environment …
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May 17, 2010 1:03pm
mjwilknz

@Kris K, sorry, I’m not sure I understand you. Which measure of the health of young people are you referring to? Have you got stats of one showing a clear downwards trend? I had understood that many measures of health, although certainly not all, have been improving the last 30 years. Is that not so for your particular measure?
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May 17, 2010 1:12pm
Kris K

Repton 12:54 pm,

“devolve” is a silly term to use, because it implies that there is some perfect state, some “ideal human form” that we are evolving towards,

In a sense you’ve hit the nail on the Head. [Col 1:18]
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May 17, 2010 1:16pm
malcolm

Perhaps ‘intellectual honesty’ is merely a byproduct of one’s environment …

I think you’re right Kris. ‘Intellectual honesty’ (and hence also ‘intellectual dishonesty’) is a by-product of one’s environment. I first noticed this when I meet Christian Union people at Canterbury. It only takes a few years of twisting and denying common sense, logic and science in order to reconcile the contradictions, absence of evidence and the plan nonsense of religion, and you’ve essentially trained your brain for intellectual dishonesty. Then you just add an automatic persecution mentality mechanism which prevents you considering any contrary evidence and viola, you’ve created a self-contained, self-referencing and self-defending mental bubble of nonsense.
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May 17, 2010 1:23pm
Kris K

mjwilknz 1:12 pm,

@Kris K, sorry, I’m not sure I understand you. Which measure of the health of young people are you referring to? Have you got stats of one showing a clear downwards trend? I had understood that many measures of health, although certainly not all, have been improving the last 30 years. Is that not so for your particular measure?

Are you taking the proverbial?

I’m equating the health of society with the drinking habits, violence, et al as exhibited increasingly in our children. That our children are a barometer for the health of society as a whole.
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May 17, 2010 1:25pm
Chthoniid

A short look at the good old days in New York:
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/20/opinion/gangs-crime-smut-violence.html
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May 17, 2010 1:26pm
krazykiwi

Lumen Accipe et Imperti

Ah yes, the old school motto. “Accept the light and pass it on”, referring of course to knowledge… but widely translated “Light it up and pass it around” IIRC 🙂
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May 17, 2010 1:28pm
MikeNZ

Very good point Kris, I’d never thought about it from that perspective.
Just the politics in the class room is the voting patterns later.
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May 17, 2010 1:28pm
Kris K

malcolm 1:23 pm,

Change a couple of words around and you’ve got it spot on, Malcolm.
Ignorance is indeed bliss …
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May 17, 2010 1:29pm
Kris K

krazykiwi 1:28 pm,

Although I’m sure you never inhaled, Krazy … 😉
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May 17, 2010 1:32pm
MikeNZ

Kris
I think if you asked some cops who were 30yrs in they’d agree with your position.
I know several counsellors/social workers who think the same, it’s really interesting talking with them.
They say there is more education now than then but more std’s, more binge and destructive drinking and violence generally.
Go figure!
I thought that as we’d had 10yrs of beneficial liberal, enabling, socialist rule to undo the depredations of Tory/National hegmoney that we’d be more educated and loving.
Guess you can’t educate common sense.
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May 17, 2010 1:36pm
krazykiwi

Kris – Indeed. I’ve never touched the stuff… can’t even stand the smell. Always thought I was taking the moral high ground, but seeing philu gibber away here each day has made me realise that the right short term decisions make for a better long term life.
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May 17, 2010 1:37pm
mjwilknz

@Kris K, sorry, I’m just asking for clarification as to the particular measure you’re referring to. It doesn’t sound like you have a particular measure in mind, but I imagine you’re not adverse to using vague generalisations to make up for that!
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May 17, 2010 1:39pm
MikeNZ

MJW
how about the highest rates of stds amongst 14-23 yr olds?
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May 17, 2010 1:41pm
MikeNZ

Hey this one is for LUC and LRO
An Arab Muslim member of Israel’s senate calling for a Muslim caliphate.
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4151.htm
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May 17, 2010 1:43pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 1:28 pm,

Very good point Kris, I’d never thought about it from that perspective.
Just the politics in the class room is the voting patterns later.

Yeah Mike, I think our kids are ‘the canary in the coalmine’ for a whole lot of issues.
And, sadly, like you I think the “politics in the class room” will translate directly to the ‘politics of tomorrow’. Little socialist ideologues in the making.

She’s a brave new world … (actually, ‘Lord of the Flies’ comes to mind)
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May 17, 2010 1:45pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 1:41 pm,

MJW
how about the highest rates of stds amongst 14-23 yr olds?

Mike, if you’re going to start throwing facts around I’m going to have to report you to the thought police as you obviously require a ‘readjustment’. Please cease and desist immediately – you have been warned!!!

Remember, “vague generalisations” are the rule here on Kiwiblog.
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May 17, 2010 1:59pm
philu

“..Since we are all adults here, I presume, surely we can discuss policies as adults without becoming upset…”

you’re not from around these parts…are you..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 17, 2010 2:02pm
philu

“..You’re also lot if you think this a venue of adult conversation…”

and you..and yr abusing ilk…who never discuss topics..just spew venom/personal-abuse at anyone who holds the slightest different view…

..are the main reason that is so..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 17, 2010 2:06pm
mjwilknz

@MikeNZ, a good idea, but is that stat a good one to use? That is, does the rate of STDs in young people do a good of comparing their health between 30 years ago and now? It’s a pretty specific measure and a more general one might be life expectancy at birth. This Ministry of Social Development page shows a steady upwards trend in that between 1985-87 and 2006-08: http://www.socialreport.msd.govt.nz/health/life-expectancy.html
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May 17, 2010 2:12pm
mjwilknz

I’ve just noticed that the MSD even have a time series graph of life expectancy at birth between 1960 and 2000. Rather than showing any downwards trend over the last 30 years, it’s upwards all the way: http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/0/A3208DCE41F0A055CC256AA90077A7D8
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May 17, 2010 2:14pm
mjwilknz

I’ve just noticed that the MSD even have a time series graph of life expectancy at birth between 1960 and 2000. Rather than showing a major downwards trend over the last 30 years, it’s upwards for everyone except females born in the sixties: http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/0/A3208DCE41F0A055CC256AA90077A7D8
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May 17, 2010 2:16pm
mjwilknz

@philu, sorry to state the (fairly) obvious, but I’m reasonably new at commenting on Kiwiblog! Do you need to practice how to “just spew venom/personal-abuse at anyone who holds the slightest different view” or does it come naturally to some?
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May 17, 2010 2:21pm

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