General Debate 12 September 2010

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KiwiGreg

“Muslims in Germany are now threatening to kill Angela Merkel.”

Well at least they aren’t threatening to burn bibles. Now THAT would be a global news story.
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September 13, 2010 9:20am
krazykiwi

Touché KiwiGreg!
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September 13, 2010 9:34am
Hurf Durf

It’s what the people of Gaza would feel for the people of Canterbury.

LOLOLOL
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September 13, 2010 7:38pm
reid

“Reid..I became extremely anti islam thru my direct exposure to islam..I am not a theorist.”

Well if that’s your conclusion joana, perhaps you didn’t meet the right ones.
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September 13, 2010 7:46pm
krazykiwi

perhaps you didn’t meet the right ones.

joana has lived in a muslim country reid. Suggesting she didn’t meet the right ones would be a bit like saying long-term visitors to NZ don’t meet the right NZers. I guess it’s possible… they’re not all fortunate enought to meet you and/or I !!
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September 13, 2010 8:00pm
reid

Yes but I’ve met lots of Muslims who live in this country, kk. Sure, they were strangers in a strange land and I was the powerful white man so maybe they were more respectful than they otherwise would have been.

I also have no doubt we have like all Western nations Muslims who wish us harm and are waiting.

That still doesn’t make every single Muslim on earth, evil.

Why you guys don’t get this, I completely understand, for I used to have the same attitudes you did, and I wouldn’t have got it, back then, either.

All I can say about it is, the reality of daily world news does not match with joana’s perceptions, so draw your own conclusions from that.
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September 13, 2010 8:08pm
Kris K

reid 8:08 pm,

Yes but I’ve met lots of Muslims who live in this country

While that may be your experience here in a non-Mislim country, Reid – that doesn’t invalidate Joana’s experience as a non-Muslim who has lived in a Muslim country. Especially when you have said you have never lived in a Mulsim country yourself IIRC.

I’m afraid I have to accept Joana’s first hand experience over your second hand estimation of what Muslims are like in their native environment.
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September 13, 2010 8:21pm
joana

Reid..you keep concentrating on individuals..it is not about individuals. It is not about whether someone is nice or not. It is about the ideology and the history which you don’t seem to know. Muslim countries are run by brutal dictators..Islam and democracy are incompatible hence the total lack of freedom in these countries.
I was thinking today of the habit of these dictators of having their photos everywhere..or statues..they make it compulsory for their images to be everywhere..think Saddam Hussein or Mahattir Mohammad.. It is weird..everywhere you look you see them. It is as if you need reminding that their ”eyes and spies” are everywhere which of course they are. This habit is probably not confined to islamic dictators….. it is probably common to all dictators…maybe someone else knows more about this phenomena.
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September 13, 2010 8:28pm
Pete George

Muslim countries are run by brutal dictators..Islam and democracy are incompatible hence the total lack of freedom in these countries.

That’s not entirely true. There are a number of countries where Islam and democracy (of sorts) co-exists. Turkey has just had a major democratic referendum (with mixed signals).

I take it you see the attempt at democracy in Iraq as doomed.
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September 13, 2010 8:48pm
reid

Reid..you keep concentrating on individuals..it is not about individuals.

It’s never, at the end of day, about anything else but.

It is not about whether someone is nice or not. It is about the ideology and the history which you don’t seem to know. Muslim countries are run by brutal dictators.

I entirely agree with everything you say. The first bit’s right, it isn’t about whether someone’s nice or not. It’s about whether someone is actually really truly and demonstrably organising their affairs toward leaving their family, their friends, their job, their whole life, to come and kill us. Now I really don’t know what your mileage is on that, but in my global geo-political general news reading not knowing anything on the ground but aware if it was a hotspot serious threat people are on to it already and I would have heard about it. In that world, I don’t see the millions upon millions of people waiting in the wings to do that. I just don’t. Sorry.

I was thinking today of the habit of these dictators of having their photos everywhere..or statues..they make it compulsory for their images to be everywhere..think Saddam Hussein or Mahattir Mohammad.. It is weird..everywhere you look you see them. It is as if you need reminding that their ”eyes and spies” are everywhere which of course they are. This habit is probably not confined to islamic dictators….. it is probably common to all dictators…maybe someone else knows more about this phenomena.

Muslims are weird. Some of them don’t seem to care for drinking, loose behaviour, etc, others do. Go figure. The fact most of them are required to live in a society we wouldn’t care to, is not their fault. Is it your fault you live in a democracy, or is it dumb luck?

My point is, your issue seems to be that there are substantial numbers of average people who don’t understand common laws and bonds of human decency and dignity. The fact they are “religious” seems to be a scary thing.

I’d suggest if you drop fear, Muslims actually aren’t very scary at all.
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September 13, 2010 9:08pm
Fot

I note that Comrade Locke spent the weekend celebrating the terrorist attacks on the twin towers with his Muslim pals.

http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/09/13/multi-cultural-eid-celebration-in-mangere/#comments

Locke really is a totally repulsive individual.
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September 13, 2010 9:13pm
joana

Yes..there is fighting between the different muslim groups..there is no stable govt…islamists from outside the country will always work to destabilize any new govt.
Turkey’s reforms are as you say not considered democratic by many but instead a step closer to islamic rule.
All a bit grim really.
Many people have written about islam but I think for a clear view and a still often quoted one it is hard to go past the words of Winston Churchill…you should be able to find these easily enough..Also Aldous Huxley wrote his opinions..the Chinese also had a clear often quoted view…All of these opinions were written decades ago and were therefore not coloured by any modern day thinking. Sorry I haven’t got the Churchill quote at hand..Not exactly sure but I think he worked in Nth Africa.
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September 13, 2010 9:14pm
joana

Reid..a very good friend of mine and his business colleagues were almost beheaded..people in a neighbouring island were beheaded..Another friend watched beheadings out of his office window in the middle east..a nice touch was that they would arrange for the fire brigade to come to hose down the blood.
Fear is appropriate in these circumstances.
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September 13, 2010 9:19pm
wikiriwhis business

Yes Joana,

Churchill was decades ahead of his time. He also wanted to Join Patton in attacking Russia directly after the war.

I don’t think anyone forsaw the growth of China though. Esp because of Mao.

Between Islam anad China, the world needs to nip them in the bud at the UN

oh oh, they socialist too. And not sitting on the fence socialist. They think Helen Clark is the bees knees 😮
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September 13, 2010 10:29pm
reid

a very good friend of mine and his business colleagues were almost beheaded..people in a neighbouring island were beheaded..Another friend watched beheadings out of his office window in the middle east..a nice touch was that they would arrange for the fire brigade to come to hose down the blood.

Yes but with all due respect joana, you obviously weren’t dragged into the street and also beheaded, thus proving the point.

Just because some do it, doesn’t make everyone there evil.

And how many actually really do that, as a %?

0.00.. how many? Scientifically? In your estimate.
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September 13, 2010 10:37pm
krazykiwi

reid consider this:

… all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

Now to your comment about everyone not being evil. Fair enough, statistically speaking. So perhaps joana can tell us of the rioting in the streets after these heinous, sharia-sanctioned murders. Or did the good men (and women) do nothing?

You see I have three problems with the argument that the brutality is perpetrated by a tiny minority. Not with the statement – that’s essentially correct. But more that (1) the vast majority of locals refuse to rise up against this brutality, and (2) that the laws of a sovereign nations direct such brutality to be undertaken and (3) that some try to pass off said brutality because it’s only perpetrated by a tiny minority.

I guess we can split hairs because we’re still alive to do so.
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September 13, 2010 10:49pm
joana

good point Krazy Kiwi…
My friend and his three colleagues were almost beheaded in the province of Aceh , Indonesia..the reason they were going to be beheaded was because they were all foreigners. They had not done anything to anyone. They only escaped because of my friend’s bravery and because of the eventual help they rec’d from a Catholic priest to leave the country..
The people on a nearby island were humble , unarmed and defenceless..they got the usual muslim ultimatum..convert or die..after the slaughter , their children were rounded up and circumcised in a mass ceremony of hundreds of children..I doubt whether this slaughter ever made the news here..Previously, they were a humble catholic community minding their own business.
Whilst I was living in Borneo , there was another round of beheading..the locals in Kalimantan beheaded lots of muslim Madurese who had been transplanted there by the Indon govt..again this was unlikely to have made the news here..The local people have history of beheading but had not practiced it for awhile..when they had had enough of the Madurese , they went into a collective trance and went on beheading rampage…Outsiders would probably say that they practice black magic but to them it is just their centuries old culture. The Madurese in Kalimantan had done what Muslims do everywhere..they had not integrated..they had not respected the local people or their centuries of tradition..For this their heads were placed on sticks all around the edge of the villages..a kiwi friend in the area got on a bus to return to our hometown and there was a severed head on the back seat of the bus..Not sure exactly what year this happened..possibly 1999, 2,000 or a bit later. I assume there was a subsequent crackdown by the Indon govt but I am not sure..not very in touch with this part of the world anymore..I would say this situation where the muslims got the chop would be very unusual in modern times..It is usually them doing the beheading.
All of this is gruesome..
I don’t have the figures for you Reid..You can do your own research..
The violence goes back to the days of Mohammad..he was not liked in Mecca..did his thing in Medina..the Arabs of the day said he ”cast fear into them..” so the fear goes right back to the earliest days of this cult. He was a mass murderer , a rapist and a pedophile..hardly a good role model for anyone.
The President of Algeria said in 1973..”in the future millions of muslims will go to Europe and they won’t go there as friends..”
In the 1980s , muslim leaders said..”We will not need to take Europe by the sword , we will take Europe with our children.” So now whilst the sword is still convenient in some places , having babies has become the new method of global domination..the goal is still the same..world wide sharia law..in other words , barbarism.
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September 14, 2010 8:53am
Kris K

Reid, and other doubters,

Here is something I posted a month or so ago – it relates to Western leaders, such as Churchill, who warned against Islam:

Some Americans even knew the danger Islam represented prior to 9-11 …

Teddy Roosevelt On Islam

The following passages were written in 1916 in Teddy Roosevelt’s book, “Fear God and Take Your Own Part”, reproduced in “What Every American Needs to Know About the Qur’an” by William Federer.

Christianity is not the creed of Asia and Africa at this moment solely because the seventh century Christians of Asia and Africa had trained themselves not to fight, whereas the Moslems were trained to fight.Christianity was saved in Europe solely because the peoples of Europe fought. If the peoples of Europe in the seventh and eighth centuries, an on up to and including the seventeenth century, had not possessed a military equality with, and gradually a growing superiority over the Mohammedans who invaded Europe, Europe would at this moment be Mohammedan and the Christian religion would be exterminated. Wherever the Mohammedans have had complete sway, wherever the Christians have been unable to resist them by the sword, Christianity has ultimately disappeared. From the hammer of Charles Martel to the sword of Sobieski, Christianity owed its safety in Europe to the fact that it was able to show that it could and would fight as well as the Mohammedan aggressor. …..The civilization of Europe, American and Australia exists today at all only because of the victories of civilized man over the enemies of civilization because of victories through the centuries from Charles Martel in the eighth century and those of John Sobieski in the seventeenth century. During the thousand years that included the careers of the Frankish soldier and the Polish king, the Christians of Asia and Africa proved unable to wage successful war with the Moslem conquerors; and in consequence Christianity practically vanished from the two continents; and today, nobody can find in them any “social values” whatever, in the sense in which we use the words, so far as the sphere of Mohammedan influences are concerned.There are such “social values” today in Europe, America and Australia only because during those thousand years, the Christians of Europe possessed the warlike power to do what the Christians of Asia and Africa had failed to do — that is, to beat back the Moslem invader.
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September 14, 2010 10:14am
joana

Excellent..thanks Kris.
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September 15, 2010 12:18pm

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