General Debate 26 November 2010

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Yvette

Why do Maori leaders not have a rahui declared against tobacco products?
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November 26, 2010 8:09am
Sofia

‘ Sarah Palin’s grip on matters of foreign policy has again come under scrutiny after she confused North and South Korea in a radio interview.
Palin was speaking with Fox News presenter Glenn Beck on his radio show when she made the mistake, saying “Obviously, we’ve got to stand with our North Korean allies. We’re bound to by treaty… ” ‘

So in some ‘banter’ presenters on ONE’s BREAKFAST report this, then one admits it indeed was no big deal, the ‘gaffe’ picked up immediately –

‘ The host corrected Palin after her slip of the tongue before she continued, “And we’re also bound by prudence to stand with our South Korean allies, yes.”

So there wasn’t much to it then? Well, yes, the newsreader commented in a candid moment, with laugh: “It is the way we read it!”
Bit of a gaffe of their own I think.
But hey, I am probably rather bloody stupid myself : watching BREAKFAST, if only for the ‘news’.
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November 26, 2010 8:10am
Rodders

From the “Believe It or Not” file

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/62622/mayor-fuming-over-complaint

This TV3 clip seems to indictate who the aggressors were (and it wasn’t the Mayor and his party) :

http://www.3news.co.nz/Tempers-flare-over-land-in-Taipa/tabid/370/articleID/183381/Default.aspx
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November 26, 2010 8:17am
Pete George

brothers of mine

brotherhood set in rock
mates
as good as family
stand as one
fall as one
mourn as one
brothers of mine
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November 26, 2010 8:20am
kaya

The word would have to be simmering.

“Gloom, anger spreads as European economies teeter”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10689960
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November 26, 2010 8:20am
Murray

They demand respect but fly the New Zealand ensign upside down to display their default setting of disrespect.

You can expect the RRC to back them because he gutless appologist for Maori racism.
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November 26, 2010 8:23am
joana

There is an interesting article in today’s Timaru Herald by a former Pike River miner who says the disaster was ”100pc preventable..” Sad..
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November 26, 2010 8:58am
Brian Smaller

Palin makes a gaffe and everyone and their dog in the media is all over it with the aside that she is stupid, but meanwhile crickets are chirping when anyone asks if Obama can name all 57 States he visited in his election campaign.

Politicians such as Obama and Palin are publically speaking thousands of words every day. Sometimes they stumble or make a mistake.
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November 26, 2010 8:59am
Pongo

Pike River were refused by DOC to put more ventilation shafts further up the mine because someone saw a blue duck. The consent approval insisted where the entrance was to be and having an upward sloping road to access the mine is not best practice either.
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November 26, 2010 9:02am
ciaron

Can we give the coasters a day off?
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November 26, 2010 9:06am
Manolo

Will the government have the testicles to do it? http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10690076&ref=rss
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November 26, 2010 9:13am
Herman Poole

She said it correctly 8 seconds before the quote as well.

The things these people then go on to say about Fox is such a joke.
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November 26, 2010 9:16am
Lance

I agree Sarah Palin making a gaff via a slip of the tongue is hardly news worthy.
Except I wonder how many drawing a deep sigh at the ‘Palin bashing’ would be so forgiving if Barak committed such an unforgivable sin. Proof he is a communist/ Muslim bent on the destruction of the US.

I mean a little consistency would go a long way to proving Obama haters aren’t hypocrites.

Plus the fact these conspiracy theories around Obama are getting old.

I suggest you just debate the mans politics, would be a change.
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November 26, 2010 9:30am
Simon

Nigel Farage (UKIP) at EU economic committee. As the PIIGS head to bloody ruin.

“UKIP Leader Nigel Farage warns President Herman van Rompuy that untold millions of people will suffer as the EU political class pursues its dream”

http://www.ukip.org/content/video-zone/2014-van-rompuy-pinup-boy-for-eurosceptics
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November 26, 2010 9:30am
Pete George

One miraculous rescue this week, this one by pure chance.

Tokelau teens adrift for 50 days with only a seagull to eat

Three boys in an aluminium dinghy drifted 1300 kilometres across the South Pacific, resorting to drinking seawater and devouring a seagull to survive.

On Wednesday, a New Zealand fishing boat in a lonely part of the ocean spotted the tiny boat carrying the three Tokelauans who were thought lost forever.
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November 26, 2010 9:33am
calendar girl

I’m surprised that there has been little public reaction to Commissioner Howard Broad’s statements advocating (a) fewer people going to prison and (b) restricting imprisonment to only the most serious convicted criminals.

My first comment is that his second plea reflects the present situation anyway. Many of us struggle now to understand how perpetrators of many serious criminal offences manage to avoid prison sentences. Of course, the degree of “seriousness” in any particular case is a matter of opinion, but I note that 90%+ of NZers have voted in a referendum for generally stronger punishments – the opposite of what Commissioner Broad seems to want.

However, I’m also perplexed on three other counts:

1. The Commissioner’s comments, some 4 months or so ahead of his retirement from the role, have a distinctly political flavour. I see his role as leading the Police Force in the carrying out of its legally-defined enforcement and prosecution duties. In my view it is not his prerogative to advocate publicly for changes in public policy, especially where such changes would occur only in a politically-contentious atmosphere.

2. Is the Commissioner endeavouring to put pressure on the judiciary to impose lighter prison sentences (or no prison sentences in particular circumstances)? If he is, that is highly questionable behaviour in a constitutional sense.

3. Could the Commissioner’s comments create an environment within the Police where some prosecutions may be pursued less vigorously, or using a lower level of charge than would be used presently, in order to keep the prison numbers down?
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November 26, 2010 9:50am
Scott

I agree with the people that say that Sarah Palin just cannot get a break in today’s mainstream media. They jump on everything she says. For some reason many people just seem to not be able to stand her. I don’t know why that is.

Pres Obama has had a wonderful ride from the mainstream media. He is way less experienced than Sarah Palin in the art of governance, but the mainstream media forgives his mistakes. It appears to be a case of one person having an agenda the left-wing mainstream media supports and one person having an agenda they loathe. The story is more about media bias than the actual quality of Palin and Obama in my opinion.
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November 26, 2010 9:54am
Jack5

Business leader blasts Labour’s inaction as the finance companies debacle unfolded.

The Securities Commission, the Commerce Commission, and perhaps even the Reserve Bank were guilty by neglect, too.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4390915/We-stood-back-and-did-nothing
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November 26, 2010 9:56am
Pete George

Re Palin: fate and Freud slip in an historic moment?

This wee embarrassment should be inconsequential, but the queen of the sound bite sounds like she’s bitten herself on the bum. It would be ironic if this was a game changer – those choosing to be in the bright lights don’t always get to choose which light shines.

Scott, it’s not about media Bias, it’s just part of the game, the whims of a whimsical world.
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November 26, 2010 9:56am
Herman Poole

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/joebiden/a/bidenisms.htm
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November 26, 2010 10:01am
Herman Poole

Scott, it’s not about media Bias, it’s just part of the game, the whims of a whimsical world.

You need to get yourself a clue Pete. Any self respecting broadcaster would have dumped Katie Couric after that interview.
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November 26, 2010 10:02am
Lance

@ Scott
Thats a bit of a loaded statement, more like some (or even much) of the media are more forgiving of Obama.

I was more referring to the comments here on kiwiblog.
I am not one who would vote for Obama if I was so entitled to, but I am pissed off with personality attacks and conspiracy theories around Obama. They are so full of shit.
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November 26, 2010 10:03am
kowtow

Here’s a comment from that appaling “human rights”/probation stuff up in the UK. It has a lot of relevance to theNZ situation also. ie soft on crime,human rights trumping societal safety,out of touch /activist judiciary and legal practitioners….

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100065429/the-release-of-philip-lawrences-killer-showed-we-have-forgotten-what-human-rights-are/

calendar girl; re the commissioner

Have you a link to the statements?
If that’s what he said it’s out of his remit. Since the previous govt though we have seen a politicising of the police.All part of a dangerous trend?
Maybe Broad is setting himself up for post retirement employment by making the right noises about the penal system,who knows?
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November 26, 2010 10:03am
Herman Poole

I agree Sarah Palin making a gaff via a slip of the tongue is hardly news worthy.
Except I wonder how many drawing a deep sigh at the ‘Palin bashing’ would be so forgiving if Barak committed such an unforgivable sin. Proof he is a communist/ Muslim bent on the destruction of the US.

I mean a little consistency would go a long way to proving Obama haters aren’t hypocrites.

Plus the fact these conspiracy theories around Obama are getting old.

I suggest you just debate the mans politics, would be a change.

His stimulus package, healthcare bill, diplomatic strategy, Guantanamo Bay, or other. Which one would you like?
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November 26, 2010 10:06am
Jack5

Re Calendar Girl at 9.50.

Broad’s strange record includes participation as a cop in one of the greatest injustices in NZ history, the imprisonment of Ellis from the Christchurch civic creche case. That was one of the witch-hunt type crazes featuring alleged sexual assaults on children. These broke out in several countries around that the time. The Christchurch case included references to secret tunnels and hints of participation by fraternal lodges, police, and high members of the establishment. All complete bollocks, and as with the other cases internationally, stemming from unstable adults at the centre of the allegations.

Police Minister Collins should have fired Broad instead of letting him serve out a last year at the top of the police.

Under Broad, police have persecuted citizens protecting themselves, as in the Northland farmer almost bankrupted by defence fees for peppering a thief, and the Auckland shopkeeper who shot a machete wielder. Broad has resisted arming the police to defend themselves, and must have given “go” in what may prove to be a debacle in Tuhoi country. His leadership of the Napier siege wasn’t outstanding, either. I bet a lot of policemen and policewomen outside the top two layers of granite bureaucracy at the top of the force will be pleased to see Broad go.

Now Broad sticks his nose into prisoner sentencing. Should his opinion on this count any more than that of D4Justice or even of our own ~~basta~~ bard, Pete George, who gives us a sample of his verse above in this thread (and not bad either, Pete)? Of course not.

Broad’s area of inexpertise is enforcement, not punishment.
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November 26, 2010 10:13am
Falafulu Fisi

Watch this:

Obama thinks Europe is a country

but MSM was in love with Messiah Obama. If Sarah Palin was stupid in saying that Africa was a country and not a continent then why hasn’t been any of them picked up that Obama failed to take note that Europe is not a country?

Interesting to watch CNN assasin reporter for defending their position on the assassinating of Sarah Palin:

Media Malpractice… How Obama Got Elected and Palin Was Targeted

There are many of those vid clips on youtube on this Media Malpractice series on youtube (from 1 to 5, etc,…). Here is part 1 highlights:

Media Malpractice Highlights 1

Fact. Majority of the voting members of the public are dump. They don’t vote on principles but on mostly emotions. This is called by sociologists/psychologists herd behavior. Herd action is not based on rationality, you acted on impulse without knowing full facts.
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November 26, 2010 10:20am
Pete George

If Broad said it in a poem it should count for more, but hardly anyone reads poetry – that’s why I post on blogs, at least you get more people reading it, even if they still think it’s crap.

Falafulu Fisi, Palin understands the herd thing well, guiding to herd is one of her strengths.
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November 26, 2010 10:20am
Manolo

“I bet a lot of policemen and policewomen outside the top two layers of granite bureaucracy at the top of the force will be pleased to see Broad go.”

A few honest citizens will also be very happy to see the back of this incompetent individual, who has lowered the reputation of the NZ Police.
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November 26, 2010 10:21am
stu-tron

This popped up briefly in stuff yesterday – not sure if intentionally releasing it whilst the nation was focused on PRC but some pretty suprising ideas tucked away in this presentation – basically endorsing PPP’s and partial provitisation of SOE’s…lovely..

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4388486/Labour-signals-big-economic-changes
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November 26, 2010 10:25am
Falafulu Fisi

Pete George, are you contributing or you just filling in your whole day here by making an irrelevant comment? Anyway, here is highlight 2:

Media Malpractice Hilights 2

You should watch them Pete.
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November 26, 2010 10:34am
Pete George

Majority of the voting members of the public are dump. They don’t vote on principles but on mostly emotions. This is called by sociologists/psychologists herd behavior. Herd action is not based on rationality, you acted on impulse without knowing full facts.

My comment was relevant to your statement, repeated here ^.

I agree that there is a lot of public herd behaviour, where many people act “on impulse without knowing full facts”. Palin knows this well, she is adept at controlling her herd with emotional soundbites, and she doesn’t bother too much about sticking to facts.

Palin illustrates your point.
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November 26, 2010 10:39am
calendar girl

kowtow @ 10.03: I’m not much good at this linking business, but here’s a web page with the Howard Broad story: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/4384588/Cut-prison-numbers-Broad .

I hope that you can access the page.

Note the strange, manner in which the Commissioner raised the subject of prisoner numbers. His senior Police deputation was being quizzed on Police numbers when he went off at an apparent tangent to postulate his personal views on the evils of New Zealand’s level of imprisonment. The diversion seems opportunistic at best.

I don’t begrudge Howard Broad his personal views. What I’m concerned about is a further blurring of constitutional demarcation lines – i.e. his attempting to influence the legislature, and the possibly the judiciary, using his non-legislative and non-judicial position as a very senior public servant. And I’m also concerned, of course, about further politicisation of our Police Force.
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November 26, 2010 10:49am
Falafulu Fisi

Pete George, now you’re a psychic or mind reader, huh?

You said that Palin illustrates My point. Did you just read her mind? Or perhaps, you can show me a link where she mentioned that she is controlling her followers like a herd? Are the tea-party members were herded by Palin or they themselves were disillusioned with being taxed too much? To the best of my knowledge was Tea-party started before even Palin was invited to speak in their rallies? Effects must follow Causes. Tea party were there first, before even Palin appeared in their rallies. So, the tea party just realized later that what she stands for is the same issues they are against? Principles and not emotions.
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November 26, 2010 10:51am
Pete George

Broad may be only indirectly referring to prison numbers – his main concern seems to be prevention, ie reducing the need to imprison people, which is more his line of work.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4392830/McVicar-criticised-over-attack-on-police-commissioner
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November 26, 2010 10:53am
MT_Tinman

Calander Girl, I am surprised that you are surprised.

The inane mutterings of this lame duck political appointee have no relevance to NZ today.
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November 26, 2010 10:57am
dime

Great to see the STUXNET worm is still fucking with Iran. Its now messing with their radar hehe
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November 26, 2010 11:03am
Pete George

Falafulu Fisi – I didn’t say anything about the Tea Party, or claim anything about Palin initiating any tea parties. She is an opportunist and has become involved, some tea partiers are using her because of her herd skills. She used her herd skills when joining McCain in his presidential bid too, before the tea parties.

It’s not uncommon, that’s pretty much what politicians do. They don’t usually bother about facts or detailed explanations, they try and herd people into voting for them. And many people respond.
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November 26, 2010 11:12am
gravedodger

joana @ 8 58
Ex miner says the Pike River Disaster was 100% preventable, Of course it was and hopefully the inquiries will be able to pinpoint it the cause.
All “accidents, mishaps, tragedies and disasters are 100% preventable but sometimes triggers converge at a point at the wrong time and bad things result in spite of every reasonable precaution being in place.
FFS crossing the centerline in a vehicle only causes bad things when an oncoming vehicle is occupying that space.
Whether this tragedy was preventable by human decision making in the circumstances that prevailed is yet to be determined but the unfortunate soul on his first day in the mine could have survived by waiting until his start date but he was really keen to get down there, that could have reduced the toll to 28 but also if the loader driver had got to work earlier then it was back to 29.
Guy Body’s cartoon comment is so very true, my sincere hope is that the cause is discovered and another potential hazard is identified and eliminated, but the history of underground mining suggests that 100% risk elimination is unrealistic however laudable and wanted by all in the industry.

RIP the 29 of Pike River Mine November 2010.
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November 26, 2010 11:20am
grumpyoldhori

Christ I bet the South Koreans are saying thank fuck that moron Palin does not have the Nuclear keys or they would be nuked by now.
Now if Palin becomes president will air force one be known as trailer trash one, or moron one ?

Hell the moron is stating that working to drop obesity is wrong, she should spend more time in the Southern states, their motto seems to be let obesity reign.
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November 26, 2010 11:29am
Manolo

“Hell the moron is stating that working to drop obesity is wrong, she should spend more time in the Southern states,..”

She could also come over to RotoVegas to see the natives.
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November 26, 2010 11:30am
Jack5

The Hooer-ald’s leftist ranter Brian Rudman is shouting in support of new Auckland mayor Brown’s call for the nation’s taxpayers to pour billions into a white-elephant rail tunnel system for Auckland.

The supercity that Rodney Jekyll-Hyde has created threatens to drown NZ economically. The source of half of NZ’s consumption, the market for half the country’s imports, Auckland contributes a miniscule proportion of exports to this export-or-die country.

As pointed out before, the proportion of Auckland’s population to that of the whole of the country is rivalled only by cities in Third World states, such as those of central America. Auckland comprises one-third of the country’s population and is headed towards having 40 per cent.

If they had the same proportion of their national populations (40%), New York would have 120 million people, Shanghai would have 533 million people, and Sydney would have 8.6 million people.

At least Shanghai has huge export manufacturing industries, from shoes to cars.

We have a surging, non-exporting city out of balance with the rest of the population. It is increasingly ethnically different to and isolated from the rest of the population. Aucklanders and their political power are potentially hostile to export sectors. United Auckland threatens to be a huge obstacle to NZ’s survival as a first-world economy.
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November 26, 2010 11:36am
Lance

@Jack5
Wow…
Thats taking irrational Auckland hating to a new level. I recommend a cup of tea and a lie down.
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November 26, 2010 11:47am
starboard

Broads a fat waste of space who should have been sacked a long time ago. Why does the Police Commissioner’s position always attract under performers ?
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November 26, 2010 11:53am
kowtow

Jack5; Just read this over at interest.co.

Bill is signalling the shit could hit the fan any time(as if it hasn’t already). Which of course it could. But what will the gummint actually do? I think the head stays firmly up the bum and middle class and other welfare will continue to drown this country in more debt.

No one is prepared to take the medicine needed.ie a drop in living standards is required and now.Huge cuts to non essential civil services and public spending .Increasing productivity and exports etc But no we will contiue to demand more from Nanny till it’s too late.

Auckland is a good example. We can’t afford it but we’re doing it anyway and the whole country has to pay. Typical lefties.

http://www.interest.co.nz/news/nz-economy-risk-if-chinese-property-bubble-bursts-euro-crisis-deepens-or-recognition-bubble-australi
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November 26, 2010 11:58am
Lance

I have radical plan.
All taxes earned in Auckland get spent in Auckland instead of propping up the rest of the country. I know this will break 200 years of tradition but a brave new world awaits.

But yes the train plans are silly. Only electrification of what exists is worth while.
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November 26, 2010 12:05pm
Brian Harmer

I like Lance’s idea provided the reverse applies … no taxes raised form outside Auckland get spent in, on, or defending Auckland.
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November 26, 2010 12:35pm
Lance

Hell yes Brian

Because you do realize that’s how the hatred of Auckland started way back when. Auckland got fucked off with propping up the rest of the country and tried to become part of Aus.
Somethings never change.
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November 26, 2010 12:52pm
Kris K

I’ve been thinking about the lynching Ean Higgins received for his daring to compare the (lack of) response at the Pike River disaster with the response immediately following the attack on the twin towers on 9-11 – that rescue workers were sent straight into the towers, but were not into the mine.

Of course he was told that a burning building is nothing like the situation following an explosion in a coal mine.
What utter BS! Of course there is a correlation – I would say a very good one in the twin towers case. These buildings were full of burning aviation fuel, and while there may have been little risk of a second explosion, there was every chance that the towers would collapse due to structural integrity being lost in main steel supports due to the intense heat and excess fuel. Remember, these planes were full of fuel, and most of the fuel remained inside the buildings after impact.

No matter how you look at it, sending rescue crews into the towers was a high risk venture putting the lives of those who entered at severe risk. And as we know many rescue workers died when the towers collapsed. So how, exactly, is Ean Higgins’ comparison between the twin towers (9-11) and the Pike River mine disasters, and the risk presented to rescue workers in both cases, NOT valid?!
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November 26, 2010 1:12pm
Puzzled in Ekatahuna

“A bitter spat has broken out after Sensible Sentencing Trust spokesman Garth McVicar called for the head of Police Commissioner Howard Broad.
Labour MP Clayton Cosgrove this morning condemned McVicar for what he said amounted to a ”crass and insensitive attack” on Broad.
Cosgrove said McVicar’s attack, which was over comments about rethinking who is sent to prison, were unbelievable given what police were going through following the tragedy at the Pike River coal mine.”

Garth McVicar is probably certifiable. But how much better is Cosgrove when Commissioner Broad or any in the Police outside of the South Island seemed to have little to do with Pike River – unless it is informing every looney in the country that we have only two bomb disposal robots and neither are currently available.
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November 26, 2010 1:13pm
Pete George

Kris – the Pike River rescuers were very much aware of the degree of risk in the mine, the 9-11 firemen were not aware of the degree of risk they were putting themselves in to. If there was another high rise hit by plane now I bet there would be much more caution about who went in to the building. People learn from past experiences.

Otherwise 9-11 was completely a different scenario and bore no relationship to how they were managing Pike River. And Higgins had already established himself as an asker of inane questions – I think it was him that had previously kept asking who hired Armouguard to ensure families had some privacy and protection from the media.

Puzzled – I wondered why the hell Cosgrove brought Pike River into that discussion, doesn’t seem relevant.
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November 26, 2010 1:19pm
Brian Harmer

Lance, I suspect that like most Aucklanders, you have a mistaken view of the sources of revenue generation in this country. And also of just how much Auckland is propped up by infrastructure outside the city boundaries.

PS: Love the current Tui Billboard on the Hutt motorway “Auckland’s super now”
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November 26, 2010 1:23pm
Jack5

Lance, re you’re 11.47:

So we’re not allowed to question the Third World-scale concentration of population in one city?

I don’t hate Auckland, but I think it was nicer round those beautiful beaches and harbours when the population was around 600,000. But my view of it as a place to live is irrelevant.

IMHO, the question is the concentration of resources and population and energy in the non-export sector, and Auckland happens to be the main example of this.

NZ has been unable to pay its way in the world (exports balancing imports) for years. There was a slight improvement recently on the back of high dairy prices and one-off gains from a small and soon-to-be-exhausted Tasman oil field. However, the long-term outlook is grim.

In tax expenditure, Lance, you are looking only at construction projects, not the immense payouts on welfare and the wealth transfer of Working for Families, in which Auckland will be heavily on the credit side of the income statement. What percentage of Aucklanders are actually taxpayers net of Working for Families?

But tax isn’t what it’s about long term. It’s about exports, and a huge (relatively speaking) metropolis in either Auckland or Bluff is what could turn us into a bigger Tonga.

As for your later post:

…Auckland got fucked off with propping up the rest of the country and tried to become part of Aus.

Well that would solve NZ’s economic problem. Get Gimme Brown to push for that, and a lot of the rest of the country will back him.

The real answer is to turn AUckland into a busy export city. There some good export firms in Auckland, like Rakon, but more, such as Fisher & Paykel Appliances, are doing their main labour work in Asia. So I’m not sure how Auckland can become an export hub.
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November 26, 2010 1:45pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 1:19 pm

Kris – the Pike River rescuers were very much aware of the degree of risk in the mine, the 9-11 firemen were not aware of the degree of risk they were putting themselves in to.

Bullshit, Pete!
Everyone knows that steel loses any structural integrity once it heats up. And especially in the case of high-rise skyscrapers filled with aviation fuel and excess oxygen supply via blown-out windows.
It is well known within the fire-fighting industry that buildings with timber structural members fare MUCH better in high temperature fires than do buildings with a steel super-structure. This is the bread and butter stuff of those in the fire-fighting industry. To say the “9-11 firemen were not aware of the degree of risk” is complete bollocks – I bet every single one of them knew the risk of likely building collapse upon entering the towers.
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November 26, 2010 1:56pm
Pete George

It wasn’t Higgins asking about 9-11 anyway, not that it makes much difference to the issue.

Overseas reporter makes 9/11 comparison to Pike River

An Australian reporter from Channel Seven asked Peter Whittall whether there was any comparison that could be made between 9/11 and the Pike River explosion.

“Can you imagine New York firefighters standing around the World Trade Centre waiting to be told whether they should go in or not if there are lives in the balance?” asked the reporter.

Can you imagine the New York firefighters being told to go into the buildings if they thought there was a high probability both buildings could collapse soon?

Sure, everyone knows the degree of risk now, from experience from 9-11 in particular.

I there was another aircraft strike on a high rise now I bet the approach would be much more cautious.
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November 26, 2010 1:58pm
Lance

Yes Brian
You are so right. No country needs a financial and logistics center.

Shove the sheep out the gate and it ends up as meat on a table in another part of the world. It’s all automatic.
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November 26, 2010 2:13pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 1:58 pm

Can you imagine the New York firefighters being told to go into the buildings if they thought there was a high probability both buildings could collapse soon?

Yes I can – that’s what they sign up for.

Sure, everyone knows the degree of risk now, from experience from 9-11 in particular.

This has been common knowledge ever since steel replaced timber as structural members within buildings. And this is covered in “Fire-Fighting – Know Your Building Type 101”. This “knowledge” just didn’t come to light after the 9-11 disaster. Why do you think structural steel in buildings is generally encased in concrete? – it’s more to provide insulation in the event of fire than additional strength. As I said before, this is basic bread and butter stuff for fire-fighters – they, better than most others, know the risk of entering a building with a steel superstructure and where a high temperature fire is raging. Maybe you need to pay a visit to your local fire station and ask a few basic questions of the fire chief.
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November 26, 2010 2:17pm
Lance

@Jack5

I agree about more export. As the owner of a business that was a finalist in emerging exporter of the year (not trumpet blowing, just to show I am not talking out my arse) that is based in Auckland we are in a business hostile environment.
NZ’ers universally embrace cheapest is best and yet moan at businesses moving some of their capacity off shore. Interesting we have found it cost effective to manufacture here as we haven’t reached the size to permanently place people at the manufacturing facilities overseas, because thats what it takes to ensure consistent quality.
Our competitors quality is crap, break down in no time but it doesn’t seem to matter, they pay shit wages, don’t have to comply with OSH etc etc etc and label products as complying with technical regulations but they don’t… and no-one gives a shit, especially officials imposing the rules.
We get treated MUCH better by Australian regulators (CER) than NZ.

So unless it grows or is a meat source… where’s the future?
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November 26, 2010 2:24pm
Pete George

Kris – “Common sense 101” would tell most people 9-11 has changed how firefighters look at high rise fire management.

To say that Sept. 11 changed the American fire service is an understatement. The national call for help — “911” — was slashed into 9/11, which would change the fire service more than any single day in the last 200 years of its history.

http://firechief.com/editorial/firefighting_article_2/

US fire chief.

One of the most tragic and abominable failures of 9-11 was the total breakdown of emergency communication and coordination in the WTC.

The sad truth is that whoever could get out, did get out, and while the FDNY valiantly entered the WTC to save lives; it was an impossible, and deadly, situation. They were essentially sent in to an inevitable death with radios which did not work.

http://skyscrapersafety.org/html/speaking_11192003sr.html
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November 26, 2010 2:52pm
calendar girl

PG@10.53: “Broad may be only indirectly referring to prison numbers – his main concern seems to be prevention, ie reducing the need to imprison people, which is more his line of work.”

In my book the Commissioner can commence his missionary vocation when he has got control of his prime functions, namely:
– to “keep the peace”;
– to arrest and prosecute before the Courts the majority of people who commit reported crimes (this actually requires Police to respond to complaints of burglary, theft, car “conversion”, intimidating behaviour and the like);
– to reduce risks to people’s safety on our roads by enforcing all of the road code, not selective parts of it.

If he carries out those functions faithfully and diligently, I’m sure that the Commissioner will achieve his ambition to “reduc[e] the need to imprison people”. He will be a national hero, and no doubt will be knighted.

What I don’t want Commissioner Broad doing is writing the prescription for his own job, ignoring his three prime functions outlined above to pursue his own selective means of “reducing the need to imprison people”. If he chooses to leave the Police Force now and build a role for himself in providing social services, however, I have no objection.
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November 26, 2010 2:58pm
cha

Another hypocrite.

The Rev. Cedric Miller made worldwide headlines last week when he urged congregants at his Living Word Christian Fellowship Church in Neptune, N.J., to drop their Facebook accounts because he believes the social networking site facilitates affairs

Days later, Miller offered to step down after The Asbury Park Press reported on a 10-year-old affair of his own involving a three-way sexual relationship with his wife and a male church assistant.
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November 26, 2010 3:12pm
backster

Calendar Girl…I agree with your sentiments though Broad used so many weasel platitudes only Horimia Parekura would understand what he was getting at specifically. He should state which type of actual offender he doesn’t like seeing imprisoned. He hedged and ignored warnings he was given over the ‘P’ problem for so long he is almost directly responsible for it reaching epidemic proportions. He still won’t arm his staff and will do nothing about that until he leaves the job. He procrastinated over stab proof vests and pepper spray, and tasers for so long and then imported too few and the least efficient. His attitude towards imprisoment is identical to the Chief Justice and I suspect won him sufficient brownie points with Helen Clark in the first place to win his appointment. I just hope that his successor will be more in tune with Judith Collins and that National selects on what should be its’ own criteria after a searching examination and doesn’t just go along Labour Like.
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November 26, 2010 3:18pm
Repton

– to “keep the peace”;

That’s the point — if you take someone who is going off the rails, but not yet a hardened criminal, and send them to prison, then they will hang out with people who are hardened criminals, and emerge a better criminal.

Broad is saying that if we are smarter about who we send to prison, there will be less crime.
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November 26, 2010 3:31pm
Jack5

Lance at 2.24 on NZ exports:

So unless it grows or is a meat source… where’s the future?

No, we need to get other good export bases to supplement agriculture. Horticulture is one, but look at how we’ve stuffed up forestry. Stop-start policies, tax rebates some decades then disincentives under greenhouse policies. In downturns we close labour-intensive mills creating vast social problems – this while Russia, a far bigger forestry supplier than us to Asia – is penalising log exports to preserve jobs in Siberia. We overly focused on Pinus radiata, believing our own bullshit that it not only grew in a light flash but could be made into great timber with chemicals. And much of it ends in low-quality uses in Asia such as packing cases.

At one stage 20 or so years ago, there was work on kauri with scientists saying on good land in Northland, they might be able to get 40-year rotation. The first crop would have been half grown by now. There would have been jobs pruning etc in the meantime to help Northland along.

We need a financial structure that stops so many promising technology companies getting sold abroad once they are through breakeven and are earning serious cash.

I reckon we could look at what some other countries are doing and consider their ideas.

It once was Ireland, but the debt meltdown shows that was a pretty tenuous route.

On a low-population path I like Finland, where, with low immigration, they have focused superbly on education, and have done well in technology.

Another I like is Israel. Its intelligent immigration policy has brought in hundreds of thousands of Russian engineers and scientists and mathematicians, and they now have a superb export-based technology industry. They seem to have largely settle in one area, with Russian papers and the like, and while many are Jews, some reckon most aren’t but just wanted out of the hard times in Russia.

Will the rail project help your business Lance? Or do you reckon at a fraction of the cost we would be better to get the rail line right up to Marsden point, with widened tunnels for containers. We might then have ready the country’s only really viable deepwater port when the giant container ships on the drawing boards come out of the building yards.
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November 26, 2010 3:48pm
Jack5

Anyone-else find Kim Kill on Labour Radio a tad leftish for Saturday morning listening?

Karl du Fresne has an interesting blog on her:

http://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2010/11/howard-deserved-more-balanced-treatment.html
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November 26, 2010 4:14pm
Hurf Durf

Very true, Fisi and Herman. It’s only a pity GrumpyOldMoron can’t read. If he could, he would appreciate this:

but they don’t point out that she correctly identified North Korea as our enemy literally 8 seconds before the mix-up: “We’re not having a lot of faith the White House is going to come out with a strong enough policy to sanction what it is that North Korea is going to do.”

That would involve a small amount of humility and self-inflection on his part, though. I only hope his prog cuzzie in the US has more success with such literacy, though the pattern isn’t good.
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November 26, 2010 4:24pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 2:52 pm,

Kris – “Common sense 101″ would tell most people 9-11 has changed how firefighters look at high rise fire management.

No one’s doubting that, Petey, but as usual you sidestep the issue regarding the fact that structural steel based buildings are prone to failure in the event of high temperature fires – and THIS FACT has been known long before the twin towers failed by this method. You obfuscate and twist in the wind as is your usual MO.

I’m not even a fire-fighter and I remember discussing this very issue with my brother (who’s a builder) and father (who’s a mechanic) long before 9-11 ever happened. Can’t you get it through your thick head that this type of failure of structural steel buildings in high temperature fires has been WELL KNOWN for a very long time.

I don’t know why I even bother …
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November 26, 2010 5:00pm
Radman

Another explosion at the mine this afternoon.

Quick! Get Wishart and the other Joe 90s down there: they have about 4-5 hours from now to complete a rescue and get all the bodies before the next explosion!!

If we muck around we’ll miss the opportunity.
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November 26, 2010 5:00pm
Pete George

I’m not disputing that at all Kris. I haven’t said one thing that disputes that. It has little to do with your original point “that rescue workers were sent straight into the towers, but were not into the mine.”

Due to bad communication systems there was bugger all control over who went in to the twin towers, and bugger all warning to evacuate. It was diabolical, and much has been learned from that.

But that has bugger all to do with how the rescue workers were held back (with good communications and prior experience) from going in to the mine. The similarities between 9-11 and Pike River are so few that they didn’t deserve a response at the press conferences.

And the volatility of the mine has proven, yet again, that they made the right call at Pike River.
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November 26, 2010 5:17pm
kaya

Intriguing debate Kris and Pete. You both realise that the twin towers and building 7 are (as far as I can ascertain) the only highrise buildings in history to actually collapse as a result of fire? No wonder the firefighters went in so readily.
As for Pike River, personally I am waiting for the inquiry results before speculating more. My initial reaction was rescuers should have went in straight away and the longer the delay the worse the situation became. That is my thought and I will be pleased if I am wrong.
I certainly hope it wasn’t PC box ticking, system following, procedural bullshit which contributed to this tragedy.
Kia kaha.
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November 26, 2010 7:22pm
kowtow

Jack5;

Karl du Fresne is good value.
I gave up on Hill years ago,same with Laidleft on a Sunday. Jim Mora on afternoons OK as long as that arsehole the so called “Bomber”Bradbury is not on the panel.
Today at around 430 pm RNZ advertised an interview with some prick from the UK about prisoners right to vote there (this for some evening broadcast) the guy then says “our first song will be dedicated to those inside” WTF! criminals!
Then they switch back to the leprechaun McCarthy who’s straight into the latest anti Palin beat up ,the shit about N korea.
The gummint needs to gut that place.
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November 26, 2010 8:00pm
calendar girl

Repton, I fear that you and Commissioner Broad are both dealing in air-brushed platitudes.

How many years (or decades?) is it since this country imprisoned people not guilty of anything more than “going off the rails, but not yet a hardened criminal”? You may not have noticed, but with that kind of description an accused is now given diversion, discharged without conviction, or sentenced to 100 hours community service. He/she wouldn’t get close to going to prison. Generally I can live with that, but a proportion of such cases at the margin still cause concern.

Perhaps you’re talking about serious first offenders – the likes of Clayton Weatherston, for example. Now he was a pillar of academic respectability at one of our leading universities, never had a previous brush with the law for anything, then took it upon himself to stab a 22-year-old woman in her own home 216 times before claiming in court, without any corroboratory evidence, that the deceased woman had provoked him. Should he have been spared his minimum 18 year sentence? I don’t think so, but tell me what you think.

The bar for imprisonment is already set, both by legislation and by the application of judicial discretion, at an in-between level that is arguably high. If you want the bar set even higher, you might like to define where. No imprisonment until you’re convicted of 3 bank robberies, or 5 house burglaries, or 6 car conversions, or 10 DICs, or two child rapes …..?

Our society can’t fringe around this issue, Repton. It needs to define its position with reasonable clarity, or run a serious risk of losing completely the persuasive power of balanced incentives and disincentives.

But let me also go back to my original point at 9.50am. You and I might debate at length the threshold over which convicted criminals should expect imprisonment. But I consider that Commissioner Broad, as long as he holds his present responsibilities, has no right to publicly lobby the legislature or the judiciary for changes in sentencing policy. To do so is unconstitutional, frankly. It also sends questionable signals through the Police Force – on the eve of the Commissioner’s early retirement – that his sworn officers might care to hold back on prosecution levels that could lead to imprisonment.
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November 26, 2010 8:12pm
big bruv

Oh dear!!

Looks like Sarah Palin can also see North Korea from her house.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/25/AR2010112501176.html

Palin really is a moron, the sooner she packs her tent and buggers off back to Alaska the better, if she sticks around any longer she will hand Obama another term in the White House.
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November 26, 2010 9:15pm
Hurf Durf

We’ve addressed this, BB. Keep up.

‘Course, when Ebola makes a foreign policy gaffe, the media keeps totally schtum. Trying to pressure China into pressuring North Korea? Really, Ebola? Is this the esteemed brains trust I keep hearing about?
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November 26, 2010 9:33pm
big bruv

Sorry Hurf..been a busy day 🙂
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November 26, 2010 10:08pm
Hurf Durf

No probs. If you’re interested in some proper Korea analysis that isn’t some warmed up Gwynne Dyer/Robert Fisk bull, Check this out. The Chinese are playing a different game than they did over the Cheonan.
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November 26, 2010 10:20pm
kaya

Fuck that was funny. On the news they just said the fella who stabbed Raymond Piper to death had been thrown out of the Monrel Mob for stabbing another member……
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November 26, 2010 10:43pm
WebWrat

http://weaselzippers.us/2010/11/25/sarah-palin-a-thanksgiving-message-to-all-57-states/
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November 26, 2010 11:02pm
Rich Prick

Whatever happened to “maggie”? I do miss the juxtposition presented by an unemployed unionist.
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November 26, 2010 11:20pm
RobbieBlack

By the way, my story went like this. I complained about the racist comments of an expat forum in Beijing. My fiancee is Chinese and I had spent nine years in China so I felt kind of offended. The pricks hacked into my e-mail account and then found I had worked with an “F” visa illegally. One of the forum leaders had a “guanxi” connection to someone in the Beijing PSB and they fed them a load of bs including sending anti-Chinese government e-mails from my hacked accounts and told them I had written an anti-Chinese novel and threatened to have me held in custody if I did not leave China within three days.

It was not a big deal as I was leaving China to go to Europe a month later anyway. Then, one of the pricks wote a defamatory article that I was deported for “internet stalking” seemingly with the support of the Beijing PSB. The only NZ newspaper that did not defame me was the Dominion Post so I thank them and will give them all rights to the full story.

And the story has been broken here first as I respect this D guy.
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November 26, 2010 11:38pm
MikeNZ

Bb
You behave like such a dipshit some days.
Palin had more experience than Obama when he started.
why do you choose to forget that.
She paid her own way through university and worked her way through too.
She didn’t have Saudi royalty picking up the bills.
she honours working class Americans and their Forces, Obama trashes them.

How much do you think shes earning now that she jumped ship from the toxic “come and sue me palace” frivolous lawsuits?
$500,000, $1,000,000 pa.
wake up china she is around for a coupla years yet.

she has until their next election and carrying such big directional power at grassroots makes her a player, regardless of what the so called professionals say.
The Palin Roadshow will grind on for at least until after the next election regardless of whether she runs or not.

The demogogery by the media and twerps who behave like you is almost religious in it’s evilness.
we choose to be a curse or a blessing, I think you need to take stock.
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November 26, 2010 11:41pm
RobbieBlack

By the way, the “journalist” is now on the run having denied writing the article to escape litigation.

I am constantly moving that journalists should be held accountable for their actions such as lawyers and doctors are.

Professional regulations.

Why should a journalist have this power? To try and ruin someone’s life?
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November 26, 2010 11:47pm
RobbieBlack

I love Chinese people, Chinese food and culture but their governement and PSB are shit. It is all based upon fear that China will one day break apart like Russia did and with good reason.

If I write another book on China it will be called, Guanxi and Corruption.

It is what controls everything and that is sad as Chinese people are cool.
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November 26, 2010 11:54pm
RobbieBlack

Hey, allow my comments! I am the real Robert Black I swear!
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November 27, 2010 12:41am
Manolo

In my opinion, Karl du Fresne is excellent value. Irreverent and witty, he certainly wears with honour his curmudgeon badge. His fornightly column is not to be missed.

I’m surprised the hopelessly (il)liberal Dom Post hasn’t axed him yet. Mr. du Fresne is a shining star among the dreadful commentators who write for the capital’s newspaper.
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November 27, 2010 6:49am
big bruv

MikeNZ

At what stage did you decide to become a cheer leader for Palin?, at what stage did you decide that accepting second best is good enough?, at what stage did you give up on kicking Obama out of the White house?

People like you would have voted for Muldoon in 84 simply because he was the National party leader.

Palin is a moron, perhaps she may be slightly smarter than Obama (no evidence to support that as yet) but a moron she undoubtedly is.

The GOP need a candidate who can win, not one who will ensure another term for Obama.
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November 27, 2010 7:20am
RobbieBlack

Anyway, I will be re-publishing The Fake Celebrity in China (the book that the New Zealand Writer’s Association refused to review and got me kicked out of China) and my new book Snakes and Ladders soon. Please buy it.

And, Paul Henry is my Hero.

Out.
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November 27, 2010 7:42am
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