General Debate 7 January 2011

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jcuknz

Happy 7th everybody
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January 7, 2011 8:05am
Pete George

The 7th already! Don’t know where the year has gone to.
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January 7, 2011 8:10am
Manolo

The liberal crooks complain that an even bigger crook got the job: http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0111/thanks_but_no_thanks_8d73d4c0-7bb8-42ce-9576-09a92ad709b0.html
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January 7, 2011 8:28am
Manolo

The Messiah’s profligacy extends to buying Google ads:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/spending-taxpayers-money-promote-obamas-agenda_526776.html
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January 7, 2011 8:36am
Manolo

Let natural selection work its magic: http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10698281&ref=rss
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January 7, 2011 8:52am
TripeWryter

Stuff has a story this morning about the grounding of the Skyhawk fighter-bombers and the Aermacchi jet trainers in December 2001.

I knew the Skyhawks would never fly again, especially when we found out that the decision to allow them to be resold depended on a functionary in the US State Department.

But the Aermacchis were a different matter. They were still reasonably new and had some life left in them.

But it’s their enigines … according to a relative of mine who used to tend Aermacchis between flights, their Rolls-Royce Viper engines didn’t like water up ’em, suh.

Helen Clark’s Government made one of the worst decisions any could make when she decided to cancel the buying of 28 GD F16s (aka Fighting Falcons), and then followed that up with grounding the air combat wing.

It left New Zealand without means of defending itself in the air and from the air. It meant we were always going to have to depend on someone else. It removed skills that, if in the unlikely event that if a fighting capability is restored, will take at least 10 years to build back up to.

Nearly 10 years earlier, David Lange had cravenly buckled to the so-called peace lobby by cutting our order for four Anzac frigates to two. Now the two we do have are being flogged to death as the goverment tries to do what it used to with four, but now with two.

Those decisions were scandalous.
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January 7, 2011 8:55am
Manolo

A bearded feminist (NZUSA national women’s rights officer Caitlin Dunham) is easily offended: “The fact that they continue to defend highlighting this analogy shows how little they understand of rape culture in New Zealand.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10698198
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January 7, 2011 9:04am
Yvette

“Whaling”
Foreign Affairs Minister Murray McCully said as far as he was aware no maritime rules had been broken in the skirmishes to date, but if they were it would be up to the countries the boats were from to take action.
“There’s been no suggestion that I’m aware of that any of the rules for behaviour on the high seas have been breached.”
The Government had no jurisdiction over the high seas, but the Southern Ocean was in New Zealand’s search and rescue zone, which made it a concern, and he was keeping a watchful eye on the situation.
Last year, the society’s ship Ady Gil was destroyed in a collision with the Shonan Maru 2. The Kiwi skipper of the Ady Gil, Pete Bethune, then boarded the Japanese ship and was arrested.
A repeat of that collision had to be avoided, Mr McCully said.

Has Minister McCully issued any Permits for the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, as was done last year for the Ady Gil, as published here on kiwiblog [ http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/07/the_whining_bethune.html ]
and if so, why?
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January 7, 2011 9:10am
Manolo

For those who missed Karl du Fresne’s Curmudgeon column earlier in the week:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/opinion/4509967/Baby-Zachary-John-symbolises-the-ultimate-gay-fashion-accessory
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January 7, 2011 9:11am
Murray

McCully is full of shit Yvette, in two clips alone I saw at least a dozen maritime laws violated. If any state but warships down the ice to referee they would have been legally obliged to scoop up the sea shepard – which just of interest is flying the international sybol of piracy – and have them drop by a lawfullu apointed body to explain themselves.

If sea sheapard did what they’re doing off Somalia any navy in its right mind would hose them with .50.
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January 7, 2011 9:22am
Manolo

Murray McCully is weak as piss and symptomatic of Labour-lite’s ministerial level.
Spineless individuals like him, blind to reality, prepared to bet a dollar each way, and never ready to stand their ground, pullulate in the current government.

NZ jumped from the pan to the fire, or so it seems.
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January 7, 2011 9:28am
MT_Tinman

TripeWryter (377) Says:
January 7th, 2011 at 8:55 am

Nearly 10 years earlier, David Lange had cravenly buckled to the so-called peace lobby by cutting our order for four Anzac frigates to two. Now the two we do have are being flogged to death as the goverment tries to do what it used to with four, but now with two.

I’m always interested in upgrading my memory. It does seem to slip occasionally.

I seem, at least, to remember Geoffrey Palmer (the man who promised to listen – and who succeeded Lange) signing the purchase order for these frigates as his first act as Prime Minister. (He listened to the Aussie salesmen.)

Memory also suggests the original idea was to purchase up to ten of these Ocker-built frigates.

Thank you for the upgrade.
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January 7, 2011 9:30am
fredinthegrass

Give my regards to Whale Oil next week DPF.
I trust you will make him feel very welcome in this part of Godzone.
Would enjoy meeting him one one day and tell him to his face what a bloody legend he is.
And that is on more than one count too.

By the way, is your VRWC menbership up for re-appraisal by any chance?
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January 7, 2011 9:31am
Manolo

By the way, is your VRWC menbership up for re-appraisal by any chance?

No, it was revoked permanently once it was known DPF had applied and been accepted by the VLWC. 🙂
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January 7, 2011 9:35am
Yvette

Sea Shepherd Conservation Society acted outside the Permit granted by McCully last year [ http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/07/the_whining_bethune.html ] so where is any consequence?
Why have the fucking Permits if they aren’t enforced in any way?
McCully?
Key?
National?
any one?
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January 7, 2011 9:39am
Pete George

Chris Trotter repeats a leftie pipedream:

What National, Act New Zealand and I’m sure Plunket understand is that the day Mr Peters re-enters the House of Representatives is the day Mr Key departs the Beehive.

It’s far from being a given that Peters back means National out.
It’s a long shot for Peters to win an electorate seat.
It’s far from certain NZF could get 5% party vote.
Based on past loyalties (or lack of) it’s not a given that the Greens nor the Maori Party nor Peters would go into coalition with Labour.

It is far more likely that National win the most seats next election which means they should be first choice of major coalition party.

The only certainty is no one can trust what Peters would decide to do if given the chance.
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January 7, 2011 9:53am
Murray

More of Trotskies “nobel corruption”?
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January 7, 2011 9:57am
reid

TripeWryter, my recall is it was Bolger who declined the F-16s – why they did that I don’t know, for it would have made Hulun’s decision to mothball the Skyhawks more difficult.

Taking the SkyHawks out of service was one of the very first things she did and it was obviously her plan all along. Don’t recall her campaigning on a promise to emasculate the Defence Force however and take away every pointy thing she possibly could, which she proceeded to do throughout her reign, buying lots of transporters like the LAVs but nothing with offensive capability, thus spending the procurement budget for the foreseeable future.

This general policy not just for the SkyHawks but for the entire Defence area, was one of the more shocking things she did, without a mandate, and because we don’t have any journos who know anything about Defence, it was never raised as an issue at any time.
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January 7, 2011 10:07am
All_on_Red

“Politics is all about getting voted into power. If you don’t get voted in, you’re a loser – that’s it. There are no prizes for second place; it’s defeat any way you cut it”

Great article by Pointman. It would be nice if Key/Smith read it….

http://thepointman.wordpress.com/2011/01/06/a-decisive-minority-of-idiots-fashionistas-and-the-innocent/

Doesnt Sea Shepherd base itself in Sydney so we could do stuff all anyway?
Trypewriter is right. Those F16s were a bargain. They would have fitted very nicely with Australia’s capacity.
If Winston Peters campaigns then I think Winnie will see a huge amount of heckling. Look how Whale embarrassed Williams so much that Williams stopped going to meetings.
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January 7, 2011 10:07am
iMP

Peters’ potential intrusion into Wigram, or a NZF lacky, is interesting. Wig is a true Third Party seat. Any third party involvement there (Bradford? McCarten?) will threaten Labour in a traditional seat and we have another Mana on our hands. Chch has been thru a lot, so anything could happen. Chch Central is only 900 constituent votes behind Lab. in a seat where it used to have an unassailable lead (under Barnett), as is Waimak, where Nats won the party vote last time by a big margin but narrowly lost to Cosgrove (which is why he won’t get a big portfolio promotion). National almost picked up Chch C in 96, missed by 600- votes, so Lab.s grip in the big urban electorates may be slipping,especially in 2011. Helloo Auck. Central II.
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January 7, 2011 10:11am
KevinH

On the subject of republicanism a Herald Digi poll has indicated that New Zealanders want to keep the national flag and retain the Queen as head of State. This is in contrast to a Feb 2010 Poll that had 52% of New Zealanders opting for change.
One conclusion to be drawn from these polls is that New Zealanders are undecided about the need for change and would prefer to maintain the status quo.
The big story bubbling beneath the surface of public awareness is the continuing deterioation of New Zealands fiscal position with debt now spiralling out to $15.6 billion. Forecastes of a $70.5 billion debt ( 28.5% ) of GDP by 2015 is scary, the implications of bringing the debt down would require tough austerity measures that the John Key lead government are reluctant to embark on.
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January 7, 2011 10:43am
tom hunter

It appears that Borders may not have much longer to live, according to this article in The Atlantic.

But will this effect the NZ stores, or will the name franchise live on under local or Australian owners?

The comments from the article are as interesting. While the technology of Amazon and the Kindle are growing in their impact there is also the question of ideological bias. In the Instapundit piece on it there was a comment from a Knoxville, Tennessee resident about booksellers in general that struck a chord with me:

I maintain, as I shared with you before, that the intellectual myopia that afflicts almost EVERY brick/mortar bookseller has contributed to their demise. The ability to find books that reflect anything other than the liberal / elite / intellectual worldview is nigh on impossible in all bookstores. The marketing that is given to the “correct thinking” authors is noticeable to all with eyes to see it. I find the response ranging from outright ignorance of or disdain from employees, when asked about books by authors like Bill Buckley, etc., to be consistent and deliberate. “Open minds” from liberals who “know better”? Don’t even think about it. They’re all about ideas, as long as they are the “right” ideas. Pheugh.

I had a similar experience several years ago when I attempted to buy a copy of Mark Steyn’s America Alone, then sitting at #1 on the NYT best seller list. Borders, Whitcoulls,…. nada. So I went to a couple of smaller booksellers. Same story, even down to the same things the US commentators noted – volumes by Chomsky were on the shelf. Given our Australian links there was also stuff by Pilger. What was significant to me was that these two bookshops are located not in Ponsonby, or Mt Eden – but St Heliers, heart of true-blue, National voting Auckland.

Luckily Fishpond had all I needed and I have not set foot in a bookstore since then.
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January 7, 2011 11:02am
Redbaiter

Gun rights spat between Taranaki Daily News and American Gun Rights activists.
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January 7, 2011 11:35am
Inventory2

What kind of scum uses the Pike River situation to con people? This guy is the pits:

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/01/how-low-can-you-go.html
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January 7, 2011 11:35am
East Wellington Superhero

@ Reid

“buying lots of transporters like the LAVs but nothing offensive”
LAV is very offensive, I wouldn’t want to be in anything less than a tank if I was within 2km of a LAV. They Yanks are using them more and more and they are not a bad buy.

I agree though, having a strike wing is important and we ought to have the F16s for a variety of reasons.

Boo Labour.
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January 7, 2011 11:38am
Redbaiter

“I had a similar experience several years ago when I attempted to buy a copy of Mark Steyn’s America Alone, then sitting at #1 on the NYT best seller list. Borders, Whitcoulls,…. nada. So I went to a couple of smaller booksellers. Same story, even down to the same things the US commentators noted – volumes by Chomsky were on the shelf.”

Dead right. I was looking for Ann Coulter’s “Guilty” and Sean Hannity’s “Let Freedom Ring”. I ended up ordering them and paying about six times what future similar books cost me online. Fuck em. I’ve never bought another book from a NZ bookstore. Progressives and rip off merchants at the same time. I remember Michael Moore’s books were prominently displayed. Just so typical of the widespread political censorship the Progressives enact in NZ.
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January 7, 2011 11:43am
BeaB

Inventory These guys, like those who pinch Xmas pressies or burgle homes after disasters, are always the pits. That’s what being a lowlife means. They don’t have decent feelings or a little voice saying, “This is wrong”. Criminals don’t bother themselves with finer feelings. That’s why gaols are jolly good places for them. Lock ’em all up together for as long as possible and deny them access to any benefits, healthcare, education etc that ordinary, decent people go to work to pay for.
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January 7, 2011 11:50am
whowuddathort

Hey all

Can anyone suggest to me the best way to use google to search for things so that I get the things I am looking for?

What do I mean by this?

Well I know how to search on google, but only basic stuff really.

I have seen some bloggers say things along the lines of: “if you know how to use google search properly you will be able to find out such ‘n’ such about this or that”

Any tips would be appreciated.
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January 7, 2011 11:51am
Ryan Sproull

Redbaiter,

I recommend The Book Depository – http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/

Free shipping.
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January 7, 2011 12:01pm
Bevan

ripeWryter, my recall is it was Bolger who declined the F-16s – why they did that I don’t know, for it would have made Hulun’s decision to mothball the Skyhawks more difficult.

That would have been difficult as the original deal was signed by the Shipley led National Government, which followed Bolgers.

The F16 deal was scuttled by the incoming Labour Government (who never campaigned on it) as part of their coalition deal with the Alliance Party – 1999 election.
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January 7, 2011 12:04pm
Inventory2

Quite so BeaB. I hope that the Police apply to have this case transferred to Greymouth, to be tried by a jury of West Coasters.
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January 7, 2011 12:13pm
Redbaiter

Thank you for that kind suggestion Ryan. I generally buy direct from publishers now or through Amazon. Actually Audio books are good value and can be purchased at very good rates through Audible.com.
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January 7, 2011 12:13pm
Manolo

Ryan is 100% correct. I’ve purchased from book.depository.com a number of times. The selection is great, delivery takes no more than a few days, and prices are very competitive too. Highly recommended.

The only quirk in the process is that if you buy more than one book they will arrive in separate parcels (orders are fulfilled from wherever depot the book is found at.)
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January 7, 2011 12:21pm
Ryan Sproull

The only quirk in the process is that if you buy more than one book they will arrive in separate parcels (orders are fulfilled from wherever depot the book is found at.)

That’s actually a further bonus, as it means your whole order won’t be held up by the slowest-sourced book. They come in as they’re available.
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January 7, 2011 12:24pm
nickb

Another demonstration of governmnet bullshit (councils are even worse than central government IMO, if that is possible)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4519568/Bylaw-puts-pet-lover-in-dog-box
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January 7, 2011 12:31pm
Bullitt

Wonder if theres more to that story than what they let on. For a start why does the tetraplegic have to give up his dog when his (presumably able bodied) fiancee keeps both hers, wouldn’t it make more sense to farm out one of hers.
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January 7, 2011 12:39pm
TripeWryter

Tinman:

I was largely going on memory when I wrote about Lange and the Anzac frigates buy.

I found this in Wikipedia: “New Zealand controversy In the 1980s, the Anzac frigate project became a focus for the wider anti-ANZUS, non-alignment protest movement.[citation needed] New Zealand originally planned to purchase four ships, but domestic political pressure on the government of David Lange eventually forced the government to settle for two ships, plus a contract option for a further two ships at a later date.[citation needed]”

David Lange resigned as prime minister on August 13, 1989, and replaced by Geoffrey Palmer. The Naval Museum says this:
“In 1987 the Government approved that the RNZN should link in with the Australian new combatant project, which became known as the Anzac Ship Project.

The project awarded the prime contract for eight new Australian ships to Tenix shipbuilders, in Williamstown, Victoria. In September 1989 the New Zealand Government agreed to buy two ships as part of the project and in November 1989 a treaty was signed with Australia for the acquisition of two Anzac-class frigates.”

So, you could well be right, Tinman, that Geoffrey Palmer rather than David Lange buckled. But since the campaign against the frigates had been going on for at least two years, it would be better to say that the Labour government buckled.

As for 10 frigates: never for the Royal New Zealand Navy. There were eight for the Royal Australian Navy and four for the RNZN in the original proposals.

The Ockers were displeased, because it also meant the unit cost went up.

Reid later makes a very good point. Our news media for a long time have not had journalists who knew much about defence. This was especially so during the debate about the frigates. Many lies from the frigates’ opponents got repeated in the media without question.

So, Tinman, I hope I’ve helped to upgrade your memory a bit.
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January 7, 2011 12:45pm
TripeWryter

Reid:

No, the decision to buy the F16s (they had been paid for by Pakistan, but their export embargoed by the US) was made by National — either Bolger or Shipley.

Clark cancelled the order. The RNZAF had already organised people to go to the US to begin training on them and learning how to fix them and keep them flying.

That then gave her the justification to get rid of the Skyhawks and NZ’s ability to defend itself in the air and from the air.

Back to the Aermacchis: apparently their engines doesn’t like it when water from wet runways get sucked into the engine inlet.

That’s largely why we’re stuck with them.
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January 7, 2011 12:56pm
kowtow

Talking of progressive bookshelves the last time I had a browse in the university bookstore in Dunedin,perhaps 6 months ago, the Africa section looked like a shrine to Nelson bloody Mandella (aka God).Looking at the no. of Mandella books there you’d swear he was Africa!
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January 7, 2011 1:12pm
redeye

Perhaps governments should legislate to make sure Redbaiter and Tom have their right wing tripe to read as well.

In case you lot have forgotten, the free market means the business owner is entitled to stock his shelves with whatever he/she likes or thinks will be the most profitable.
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January 7, 2011 1:23pm
reid

In case you lot have forgotten, the free market means the business owner is entitled to stock his shelves with whatever he/she likes or thinks will be the most profitable.

Perhaps the volume of online sales is indicative of the extent to which they’ve guessed wrong then.

Thanks for the clarification TripeWryter. It’s a shame isn’t it that when our ANZAC frigates were launched the US Admiral in charge of this region made that memorable comment: “best informed targets in the world” in reference to the lack of offensive weaponry we’d elected not to install…

Defence has been a joke for a very long time, at least since Lange, through all govts since. Bastards for doing it without letting the public in on it.
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January 7, 2011 1:33pm
reid

Bit of background on Obama’s new Chief of Staff. Another Wall-streeter, what a surprise.
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January 7, 2011 1:41pm
Offshore_Kiwi

But but but we don’t need planes or ships or anything other than an souped-up Hilux. We live in a benign strategic environment. It’s all peace and love and multi-cultural happiness, isn’t it?
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January 7, 2011 1:45pm
Redbaiter

“In case you lot have forgotten, the free market means the business owner is entitled to stock his shelves with whatever he/she likes or thinks will be the most profitable.”

You nitwit. There’s no reason for anyone with a brain to think this has been forgotten. Unlike you and other frantic believers in statism we do not seek government intervention. We’re happy to take our commerce elsewhere and see Borders go broke for the sake of their need to try and control how people think rather than run their business effectively.

You left wingers are always so lame, so naive, so politically crosswired, so abjectly incapable of normal levels of comprehension, and so incoherent when you do say something, its like conversing with a four year old. Your patronising simpleton rubbish above is ample evidence of that.
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January 7, 2011 1:57pm
TripeWryter

Reid:

I don’t recall the US admiral saying that (I’m not saying he didn’t, just that my memory these days often fails me), but he would be correct.

One of the lies the peaceniks propagated was that the frigates were sophisticated ships, offering capabilities far beyond what were needed by NZ.

Not so. They were modular, which means that various armament options could be carried according to requirements. Think milk-crate.

I sought comment on this and other matters about the Meko 200 frigates from the then editor of Jane’s Fighting Ships, Captain Richard Sharpe.

He made the point that the Anzacs (Meko 200) were far from sophisticated. “No admiral would want them as escorts in his task force,” he said. Escort ships needed to be able to use integrated weapons systems. In other words, to get them ready and used all at once. The Anzacs could not. They did not have that level of integration. The weapons would have had to be readied one-by-one before they could be used. Like straightening the fingers on your hand one-by-one. Too slow for an escort.

The Anzacs were perfect for their intended role — as ocean-going patrol vessels. “Second tier,” Capt Sharpe said.

Some of the frigate opponents at the time would have been happy if we’d had unarmed ships. Two of them are MPs, and it’s extraordinary that they would want to send New Zealand men and women to sea without means of defending themselves.
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January 7, 2011 2:00pm
iMP

They’ll need LAVs AND F16s once the Labour leadership civil war breaks loose, LAVs and deep bunkers. Comrade Caygill-Cunliffe vs General Gaff-Goff. Ruth Dyson will be tanked.
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January 7, 2011 2:01pm
Offshore_Kiwi

And of course, if you can’t price appropriately, or can’t stock what people want to buy, don’t go running to the government asking them to punish people who then choose to buy online.

Like Gerry Harvey: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/assistant-treasurer-bill-shorten-backs-online-shoppers/story-e6frfh4f-1225983250569

or the Retailers Association in New Zealand: http://www.newzealandtaxation.com/2010/11/retailers-want-to-end-gst-free-online-sales/
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January 7, 2011 2:02pm
Put it away

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/world/4516769/Fears-of-a-reckoning-spread

The 13th century just called up, they want their ignorant superstitious peasants back…
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January 7, 2011 2:04pm
MyNameIsJack

Redbaiter (12,623) Says:

January 7th, 2011 at 1:57 pm

You left wingers are always so lame, so naive, so politically crosswired, so abjectly incapable of normal levels of comprehension, and so incoherent when you do say something, its like conversing with a four year old. Your patronising simpleton rubbish above is ample evidence of that.

No, that would be you when you accuse a PRIVATE owner of a PRIVATE business of censorship because they don’t stock every possible item in their category.

And that would be you, again, when you say

We’re happy to take our commerce elsewhere and see Borders go broke for the sake of their need to try and control how people think rather than run their business effectively.

It’s not that hard to set up your own bookshop, you might even be able to get a grant to help get you off the dole.
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January 7, 2011 2:08pm
tom hunter

Perhaps governments should legislate to make sure Redbaiter and Tom have their right wing tripe to read as well.

In case you lot have forgotten, the free market means the business owner is entitled to stock his shelves with whatever he/she likes or thinks will be the most profitable.

Shorter Redeye:
Comrades, our long march through the institutions is being foiled by free-market capitalism generating (sob!)…
….
more choices
…
(cue wailing and gnashing of teeth, projections of totalitarian desires upon the enemy, wah, wah, wah….
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January 7, 2011 2:09pm
Redbaiter

No it would be you Jack. You can’t even contribute your views under a consistent name. You’re a liar and a fake and a coward and I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with such a stupid and verminous POS.
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January 7, 2011 2:18pm
tom hunter

Perhaps governments should legislate to make sure Redbaiter and Tom have their right wing tripe to read as well.

You’re just projecting your own deepest, totalitarian desires. All I want is a government that allows alternative sources to flourish so that I’m presented with more choice – something that apparently burns your bum! That’s one of the many things that’s so great about free-market capitalism. Even better, I did not have to set up my own bookshop but simply held out money as an enticement to someone else to do so – and it worked. Miraculous. Even better, I apparently played a part in destroying an entity that did not like my ideas, merely by withholding my money from them. There’s a society-wide lesson for socialists right there. 🙂

No, that would be you when you accuse a PRIVATE owner of a PRIVATE business of censorship because they don’t stock every possible item in their category.

One non-ideological thing I’ve noticed in the last decade or so is the shrinkage of sections dealing with history, technology, politics, etc. Even the Sci-Fi section it seems to have become hopeless focused on Star Trek//Star Wars machine-written pap.

In other words, books in the “political” category are not where the profits are made, as with books in most such intellectual or semi-intellectual categories. Given that rather well-known fact about book stores the question is why a bookseller would regularly stock the likes of Chomsky/Pilger but not Sowell/Buckley/Goldberg. We’re left with only ideological bias ( a shallow, petty bias admittedly) as the reason.

And in case you had not noticed, the starting point of the discussion was one of those business owners going out of business – partly because (and this is only anecdotal) they insisted on not stocking profitable items. Unless you think that NYT #1 bestsellers lose money.

Still, I can’t help thinking that the Instapundit correspondent had it right on the real motivations of Redeye and co.

“Open minds” from liberals who “know better”? Don’t even think about it. They’re all about ideas, as long as they are the “right” ideas.
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January 7, 2011 2:19pm
MyNameIsJack

Redbaiter (12,624) Says:

January 7th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
No it would be you Jack. You can’t even contribute your views under a consistent name. You’re a liar and a fake and a coward and I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with such a stupid and verminous POS.

You say that like its a bad thing…
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January 7, 2011 2:23pm
reid

The 13th century just called up, they want their ignorant superstitious peasants back…

It’s an interesting phenomena, in particular the species-specific nature of it. If people interpret this as a day of reckoning then I don’t care, it’s not my interpretation – I don’t have one yet. However its most unusual.
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January 7, 2011 2:52pm
redeye

I love these hard right types that make arguments based purely on their very limited perceptions of what you might be thinking. Or, so they can reuse the abuse they learned from one of the many insult generators available on the web, what they’d like you to be thinking.

Tom and Redbaiter were complaining about the censorship happening in book sellers. I point out that the only censorship happening in these bookshop is a little thing called the free market and all of a sudden I’m a four year old lefty. Sticks and stones Redbaiter.

All I want is a government that allows alternative sources to flourish so that I’m presented with more choice

You have some sort of government that prevents these choices from flourishing at the moment Tom?
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January 7, 2011 2:57pm
Redbaiter

“that make arguments based purely on their very limited perceptions of what you might be thinking.”

That’s exactly what you did you painful idiot with your implication we sought government action. When in fact neither Tom or I were thinking at all that way, and anyone who understood where we were coming from would not even hint at such an absurdity. Go away. You’re just another time wasting brain damaged non-comprehending leftist moron of the type that makes Kiwiblog a sewer full of stinking leftist shit.
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January 7, 2011 3:21pm
kowtow

The dead animal stories are nothing more than an indication that it is MSM Silly Season Mark 2. Northern hemisphere is on holidays ,MSM have to report something,anything…….
Meanwhile a certain sect is promising death and destruction to an ancient minority that lives in fear but forget that dead birds are a safer bet.

And lets not be too unkind if some slightly ignorant people think this indicates the end of the world, I’ve seen and read alot more apocalyptic nonsense from the so called world of science relating to the end of the planet because I haven’t changed a light bulb or because I like to stay warm in winter. Autism vaccines anybody? That was very “scientific” too……
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January 7, 2011 3:36pm
redeye

redbaiter. I doubt I would be the only poster on here that had interpreted your continual, almost daily whinging about some perceived left wing censorship of the media, and now book sellers, as a call for action.
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January 7, 2011 3:39pm
MyNameIsJack

no redeye, redbaiter would never callfor action. Any action in his life might see him lose his benefit.

Although he does seem to have a good line in trying to stir up shit

http://truebluenz.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/for-those-who-do-not-know-what-certify-means/#comment-1023

and closely followed by our own follower of The Prince of Peace

Kris K says:
January 2, 2011 at 14:43
If it’s going to take a civil war to sort this out, then lets get on with it! What I would give to see the lying hypocritical and arrogant Leftist scum and their illegitimate ‘chocolate Messiah’ get theirs. Decent conservatives have had enough – rally the troops and string up the traitors!
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January 7, 2011 3:48pm
Fletch

Ryan, RB, et al – thanks for the book depository tip.

I also end up buying most of my books (mostly ebooks these days to read on the Kobo) from Amazon etc because you just can’t find the books you want in this country. I’ve tried to find books by Robert Spencer in Borders – no luck. Also, couldn’t find Bush’s “Decision Points” in any store here – Whitcoulls, Borders, Paper Plus, Warehouse – even when it was number #1 on Amazon for weeks and weeks.

I guess they figure no one would want to read it because they believe the leftist media hype.
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January 7, 2011 3:50pm
MyNameIsJack

redbaiter, Kris Klux Klan, Nick Smith – these are people who hate democracy, who are disturbed that the people get to elect governments, rather than committees appointed by the aforesaid redbaiter, Kris Klux klan and Nick Smith.

They will stop at nothing in their quest to overthrow democracy, to destroy the freedoms our forefathers fought, fisrt to obtain, and then to maintain.

Their role models are Stalin and Goebels, there desire, dictatorship of the stupid.

They are dangerous, they must be resisted, and we will overcome.
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January 7, 2011 3:59pm
Fletch

redbaiter, Kris Klux Klan, Nick Smith – these are people who hate democracy, who are disturbed that the people get to elect governments, rather than committees appointed by the aforesaid redbaiter, Kris Klux klan and Nick Smith.

MNIJ, and what evidence do you have to back this up?

They will stop at nothing in their quest to overthrow democracy, to destroy the freedoms our forefathers fought, fisrt to obtain, and then to maintain.

Their role models are Stalin and Goebels, there desire, dictatorship of the stupid.

They are dangerous, they must be resisted, and we will overcome.

Actually, there you’re perfectly describing Leftists, Progressives, Liberals, and the Politically Correct. It all goes back to the Frankfurt School, Cultural Marxism, and Critical Theory (ie, criticize everything).
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January 7, 2011 4:05pm
MyNameIsJack

evidence, fletch?

1. Redbaiters constant railing about armed insurrection to over throw the legitiame US government, see post referenced above.

2. Kris Klux Klan, as quoted above.

3. Nick Smith, on the sacking of ECAN “We can’t trust the voters to get it right”.

And I am proud to be a progressive and a liberal when I am the company of men such as Salmaan Taseer, whereas redbaiter and Kris Klux Klan (and maybe you) have far more in common with Yousuf Qureshi.
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January 7, 2011 4:10pm
reid

Just picking up on the anti-defence theme in this particular gd which is also a theme which Liarbore continually runs as a matter of policy, why is it this country has tolerated this?

Why is this country so unsophisticated as to allow disarmament sentiment to run rampant over defence policy for the last thirty years? Where is the alternative perspective that, given the govt’s FIRST duty is defence of its citizens from internal and external threat, defence is not a trivial issue which unfortunately is as its currently regarded both by the unsophisticated general population and also by the unsophisticated politicians on both sides of the fence?

That’s the critical thing: why is the defence hawk side of the debate, completely non-existent in this country? Even a hawk in this country would be considered a dove in Aus, US, Canada, UK – who are our cousins, after all. Why is NZ so publicy naive in this area?

For awhile I thought it was critical mass in that even in Aus, you’ve got maybe a hundred thousand academics and powerful business-military interests who have the resources to get into the news. You have nothing like that here. I also thought it might be the geography since you constantly hear doves talk about “where’s the threat” as if that has ever had anything to do with defence readiness.

Neither hypothesis however applies to todays world where the threat information is loud and clear and available to all and where the dissemination channels for hawks are numerous and free and yet, still the general population slumbers in its fantasy there is no threat and we don’t therefore need pointy things.

I’m beginning to conclude I’ll no longer be interested in living in this country much longer, if it keeps up this naivity.
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January 7, 2011 4:11pm
MyNameIsJack

Don’t let the door bang your arse on the way out, reid
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January 7, 2011 4:15pm
Inventory2

So how IS The Alliance doing these days MNIJ?
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January 7, 2011 4:20pm
MyNameIsJack

I think your question should be directed to reid, he’s the one banging on about military stuff.
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January 7, 2011 4:21pm
reid

The dead animal stories are nothing more than an indication that it is MSM Silly Season Mark 2.

So you don’t think the species-specific nature of the multiple recent events are significant then? How very curious of you to think that it’s not curious.
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January 7, 2011 4:21pm
Manolo

The Alliance? What is the Alliance but a motley array of malcontents, losers in life for whom envy is paramount, their leit-motif?
The defunct comrades are a pathetic joke (in meagre numbers).
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January 7, 2011 4:23pm
reid

Yes MNIJ I know you lefties hate confronting defence reality. How’s it going in your particular la-la land where everyone laughs all the time and there’s lots of guitar playing and maypole dancing that’s very gay indeed?

It’s just that such a world is the only one where your particular defence policies would work so one assumes this is precisely what you’re aiming for. You’ll probably ban short hair cuts as well, won’t you.
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January 7, 2011 4:23pm
Rex Widerstrom

Fletch says:

Also, couldn’t find Bush’s “Decision Points” in any store here – Whitcoulls, Borders, Paper Plus, Warehouse

Perhaps you weren’t looking in the “fiction” section, Fletch 😀 I’ve yet to read a political memoir by a US President (and I’ve read from Nixon on) that didn’t fit that category. Similarly with UK leaders (with Blair’s effort deserving cataloguing under “fiction / fantasy”). A capacity for self-delusion is either a prerequisite to high office or develops once one is elected.

Far better to read a few third party fly-on-the-wall viewpoints and distill the truth from there, IMHO.
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January 7, 2011 4:26pm
reid

Perhaps you weren’t looking in the “fiction” section, Fletch

Or the comedy section.
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January 7, 2011 4:28pm
MyNameIsJack

Jesusonajetski, rex, now you’ve just gone and fucked my weekend. I was all set for reading Bush, Clinton and Blair this weekend, but I am not that much in to fiction. 🙂 Maybe I’ll just read palin’s book, i do love comedy. I wonder if she’ll be as entertaining as Michael?
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January 7, 2011 4:30pm
MT_Tinman

I’ll bite Reid.

Please detail just who the defense forces – who must deal with external threats only – could defend NZ against?
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January 7, 2011 4:31pm
Inventory2

Manolo said

The defunct comrades are a pathetic joke (in meagre numbers).

Hence my question to MNIJ Manolo …
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January 7, 2011 4:40pm
Pauleastbay

Ryan Sproull

January 7th, 2011 at 12:01 pm

I recommend The Book Depository – http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/

Thanks Ryan. been using Powells.com for years now but the postage has been killing me, $2 for book and $12 for postage

cheers
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January 7, 2011 4:41pm
reid

Inter-operability is the key to our defence, MT and that’s what’s been lost. Altogether. I don’t know but at a guess I’d estimate the only NZ forces that can effectively operate like this in combat right now are the SAS and that’s only because they get trained in all the things we can’t offer by special forces from other nations.

When we lost strike-jets for example we lost the opportunity for our pilots to interact with other nations ground-troops and naval forces and for even our own navy and ground forces to practice calling in say air-strikes. This is a serious degradation.

Of course you can’t have military interaction without diplomacy and that’s the other area where both sides have let us down, for the anti-nuke thing could have been repealed had the Nats played their cards right but it’s like at some point they just gave it up. Even if you kept the anti-nuke thing, a conservative govt could have done much much more to gain the US trust, much earlier. And it never did, neither Bolger nor Shipley ever made any significant moves in that direction and of course once Hulun got in the decline rapidly accelerated.

Look my biggest beef is the fucking MSM. I remember when the strike jets were eliminated. At that time the internet wasn’t what it now is and letters to the editor were still the main public communique. There was me and a guy called Raymond Ching (I think that was the spelling) in the Herald, that was basically it. No-one else. No-one fucking knows, that’s the problem, and the politicians keep it that way. Why the conservatives do so I have no idea, for it has votes in it, if you explain the issues.
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January 7, 2011 4:43pm
MT_Tinman

Reid, no argument re the Airforce but NZ has never, in my lifetime anyway, been defendable by NZ forces against any enemy sophisticated enough to threaten it and despite your international interaction argument evidence (both here when French forces attacked NZ and with Fiji) shows us that unless the country has commercial or strategic value (NZ doesn’t) the major forces are unwilling to assist.

For that reason as well as the fact that at the time NZ was in shit and my mortgage was around 23% I was, and still am, opposed to the Frigate purchase.
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January 7, 2011 5:05pm
reid

MT you either do defence or you don’t. If you have it at all you may as well not pretend to have it and that means keeping up with the average GDP% spent by other nations. That doesn’t mean equality year by year it means approximate parity over time.

NZ has done nothing like that over the last thirty years. Since the parity rate is not large, it’s something, like rent or mortgage, that could have been kept up over time without pain. Instead somehow somewhere some people in the past made a decision which people in the present stick to, which has resulted in an underpayment of the rent or mortgage for the last thirty years with consequent devaluation of the asset. If you think this is fine because nothing’s happened to the world then how do you know that nothing’s happened to the world precisely because other nations were carrying NZ’s share of the load? Secondly if we had carried our share of the load throughout all the last thirty years how much more well-positioned would we now be on the world trade scene, not to mention the diplomatic scene?

Like I said, defence spending is like rent or mortgage, done properly, you don’t notice it and you live your life. We could have been doing that, we haven’t been, consequently we suffer today.
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January 7, 2011 5:17pm
East Wellington Superhero

I like how everyone here is an expert on everything. It’s awesome.
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January 7, 2011 5:24pm
MT_Tinman

Reid, couldn’t agree less.

Nor, of course, do we suffer today.

In fact, today’s situation suggests that those decision makers of the late 80s onward were pretty much correct.
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January 7, 2011 5:24pm
reid

today’s situation suggests that those decision makers of the late 80s onward were pretty much correct.

MT today’s situation is an unpredictable soup of possible superpower confrontation and potentially permanent, gradually escalating asymetric warfare.

Tell me on either axis, how we’re well positioned for those, defence-wise?
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January 7, 2011 5:31pm
Bevan

Please detail just who the defense forces – who must deal with external threats only – could defend NZ against?

Oh FFS! Can I please borrow your crystal ball? I’d love to know next weeks lotto numbers….

Here we have it folks, according to this wise man, NZ will face no threat in the future, thats no threat EVER! No need for a Navy, Army, Air Force then is there, shit that could save us about 3 billion each year couldn’t it! Just need to tell the Yanks, Aussies and Poms to go fuck themselves in Afghanistan, and let our Aussie mates know that we’d rather wipe our arse’s with Anzac tradition rather then ever assist them going into places, like i dunno – Timor, Solomon Islands perhaps – we’ll never need to go back there or somewhere similar right?.

Now gee, wonder what would then happen to our trade relationships with these countries…….

Now, lets take the same approach with the Fire Service in rural towns, no serious fire callout in five years, well then theres another saving isnt it!
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January 7, 2011 5:43pm
kowtow

reid, Seriously I don’t think there’s anything odd about it at all.

Here’s another take. Floods,earthquakes,plagues of locusts,snow storms,droughts,lunar eclipse……..arrrggghhhh…….
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January 7, 2011 7:26pm
Kris K

kowtow 7:26 pm,

Here’s another take. Floods,earthquakes,plagues of locusts,snow storms,droughts,lunar eclipse……..arrrggghhhh…….

I think Reid tore that section out of his bible …
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January 7, 2011 7:41pm
Komata

The ‘Defence’ of New Zealand is an interesting topic and more-informed minds than ours (they’re called ‘politicians i believe) have debated this matter over the last 40-odd years.

The heart of the matter was essentially that Lange, Clark and co, having ‘triumphed’ over the evil French at Mururoa, then decided for their own Socialist ideological reasons to cement their ‘no-nukes’, essentially pacifist, ‘Peacenik’ policy in place by passing appropriate Acts of Parliament. That the policy was flawed was not considered to be a problem since in their naivety they believed that any nukes from any direction would come to the country’s borders, see the (invisible) sign saying ‘NZ is Nuclear Free’, think ‘MMM, this country doesn’t want me, it says ‘n nukes’ – I’m not welcome’ and go somewhere else, taking its nasty nuclear explosions with it. it was, at best, incredibly naive, and at worst, because of the ideologies of those involved (Clark, Lange, Douglas, Prebble etc, etc, etc) not surprising. It was also a very effective way of ‘sticking it’ to the ‘Tories’ (the National Party), who supported the US and Britain – both capitalist, right-wing, hated (and yes, envied) Western powers – the absolute antithesis of the Maoist/Trotskyist/Marxist -Leninist/Socialist inclinations of these particular individuals and their supporters.

So far so good, but when the USA, having been used to sending ships on a ‘fleet visit’ for many years, and being welcomed when doing so, asked if it could continue the practice, the ‘left’ were presented with a problem – their ‘anti-nuclear policies’ DIDN’T cover such things. What to do? Easy and clever; merely ask the US to DECLARE that the ship it was sending was neither nuclear powered or nuclear armed. It was a stroke of genius as the US, at that time in the middle of the ‘Cold War’ was never going to state what it was carrying weapon-wise or how its ships were powered (not that it mattered anyway – ‘Jane’s’ would always give the details – as it still does). Placed in a totally untenable position, the US effectively said ‘Stuff you’ and abrogated ANZUS, leaving us out in the cold – essentially defenseless. Significantly, the Russians were never asked the same question (make of that what you will . . . ) It was somewhat selective.

The socialists (Labour) were thrilled – they’d ‘BEATEN’ the hated US, made New Zealand ‘nuclear free’ and were a shing example of ‘peace in Action’ to the world – at least in their eyes. That the rest of the world thought they were totally ‘Nuts’ was irrelevant. ‘Peace’ had won-out With the US beaten, and with the smell of Peace (actually Marijuana) in their nostrils, those in power (Labour) decided to ‘Peace-ify’ New Zealand’s armed forces – to both neutralise and emasculate them – to make them helpless and hopeless, but how to do so ‘legally’. There were of course LOTS of serving and former military people living in the country (even DL’s father) – people who had (ironically) served so that these ‘noble-minded’ individuals could have the freedom to do what they had done – send NZ’s most important ally away.

It was very easy, and again quite clever. The United Nations needed ‘Peace Keepers’, the government of NZ was ‘Peace-personified’ so, what better way to ‘spread the Peace’ than to sign up as a ‘Peace Keeping’ nation, and, by so doing, declare the ‘New Zealand’s military forces will henceforth ONLY BE NEEDED FOR THAT ROLE!! As ‘Peace Keeping’ costs less, and doesn’t require us (NZ) to have any aeroplanes except transports to move our ‘Peacekeepers’ (never ‘soldiers’ – they (soldiers) don’t keep the peace) ) , what better reason is there to get rid of those aircraft which ‘go bang’ and can actually ‘KILL and DESTROY (gasp!!) They (the Skyhawks) weren’t needed for ‘Peace Keeping’ so it was easy to use that excuse to neutralise them – and so it proved. And, because there were now no Skyhawks, there were of course no ‘fast jets’ to be flown, and so there was no need for ‘fast jet’ type jet training aeroplanes either! A brilliant stroke – remove large numbers of nasty aeroplanes and save LOTS of money. Those individuals who were more pracient about teh consequences of these actions, and stood up to teh government, were, of course, ridiculed and shouted down in the well-known and standard socialist (Communist) manner until they were finally silenced.

(BTW: It is perhaps worth asking if a certain vociferous proponent of ‘Peace Keeping’ , one Helen Elizabeth Clark, was doing it ‘for the good of thecountry’ or ‘the good of herself’ and her ‘future advancement’. I do not of course have an answer to this, but one wonders. . .)

To justify their actions, Labour also obtained opnions from various ‘sources’ which stated that ‘there would to be no military threat in any form to New Zealand or its continental shelf in the forseeable future’. What justification for action!! That these pronouncemets and others of their ilk ‘just happened’ to conform th labour policy was of course totally ‘coincidental’. . .

However, not satisfied with just that, and wishing to ENSURE that never again would New Zealand DARE consider the use of things military (especially nasty, noisy ‘Killer’ aircraft) for operations other than ‘Peace keeping’, a very deliberate Propaganda campaign was undertaken in Primary schools 9and still is as far as I am aware – despite the change of Government). This propaganda, known as “Peace Studies’ very successfully indoctrinated teh minds of the young with the belief that , under no circumstances was New Zealand to fight to defend itself, that ‘Peace keeping’ was all the armed forces were now to be used for, and that essentially the Armed Forces were bad and ‘Peace’ (as it was so ‘Peace Loving’) could only come through an enlightened ‘Peace Loving’ government which looked after such things and ensured that this situation wasn’t going to change as long as they were in ‘control’ (an oxymoron if you think about it ). The ‘Peace Loving’ government in ‘Control’ was of course a LABOUR government (surprised?)

And the result of all this ‘Peacenikking’? New Zealand is now, essentially a ‘defenceless’ country, where the only aeroplanes which can go ‘bang’ are the P3K Orion anti-sumarine aircrafta armed with ‘Maverick’ air-to-surface anti-shipping missile – and their use is so rare as to be negligable. Labour (and its ‘friend’ – the Green Party of Aotearoa / New Zealand) do of course still (wilfully) believes that NZ has no ‘Enemies’ while National doesn’t have the money to purchase new military equipment (aside from ‘peace keeping related items for teh RNZArmy) and, as the children who have been ‘indoctrinated by ‘Peace Studies’ are now voters, is very aware that the ‘Peacenik’ rent-a riot faction is both large and, becasue of its niavety, caple of being (unthinkingly) manipulated by the ‘old guard’ Communist/Socialist faction who are still around (Minto, Locke, etc come to mind) Sadly, the country is ripe for the picking, aided and abetted by ‘useful idiots'(and the New Zealand Labour Party, still determined to push their ‘blinkered’ ideologies) and while the conquest won’t happen immediately, the old sayng ‘Softly, softly, catchee monkey’ is being played out as we speak – and not necessarily by ‘the usual suspects’.

You just have to look around . . .
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January 7, 2011 8:03pm
Rex Widerstrom

East Wellington Superhero says:

I like how everyone here is an expert on everything. It’s awesome.

That’s quite unfair EWSH. I readily accept there are people who know a great deal more than I do about a plethora of subjects.

Is it my fault that none of them ever come here?!
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January 7, 2011 8:36pm
Hurf Durf

The bookshop thing is weird. The only place I saw Liberal Fascism on an eye-level shelf was a Borders in Queen Street which closed two months later.

As for defence policy, we’ve always known what it’s been – some tenuously based “benign security environment.” I’d like to see how benign that becomes when Frank Bainimarama and the Chinese Defence Minister open a PLAN base in Fiji and they start to eye up all that cheap, undefended farmland down south. It won’t be Helen Clark’s problem though. She’ll be sitting in her nice warm office in New York, calling for both sides to “exercise restraint.”
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January 7, 2011 8:47pm
tom hunter

Well crap. The massive fire in Glendowie is the bloody primary school.
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January 7, 2011 9:20pm
Lucia Maria

Komata,

Thanks for that.
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January 7, 2011 10:02pm
emmess

Fucking unions
http://www.economist.com/node/17849199?story_id=17849199
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January 8, 2011 12:38am

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