General Debate 15 August 2011

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Elaycee

Ryan opines: “To my knowledge, an emphasis on rehabilitation without the emphasis on punishment has never been tried in New Zealand.”

Were you out of the country for a decade? The entire system was driven by a bleeding heart mentality for nearly 10 years – and look where it’s got us!
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August 15, 2011 2:46pm
nasska

Ryan

Generally you have to be convicted of a fairly serious crime before you become a candidate for prison. I agree that the punishment angle is largely a waste of time but I also hold that the chances of rehabilitation are fairly remote in most cases where there has been recidivism.

This leaves the major function of a modern prison, ie to remove the predator from society. It doesn’t make me feel better but it does make society safer. There is little to be gained by making prisons overly harsh or more unpleasant than they have to be but I feel that throwing resources at rehabilitating ‘old lags’ is a waste of time & precious money.
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August 15, 2011 2:51pm
Ryan Sproull

Were you out of the country for a decade? The entire system was driven by a bleeding heart mentality for nearly 10 years – and look where it’s got us!

Can you give me a few examples of what you think would fit what I’m talking about?
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August 15, 2011 2:53pm
mikenmild

The last decade would be characterised more accurately as a planned approach to rehabilitation overwhelmed by a rapidly rising number of prisoners. Many programmes have shown good results. Unfortunately, it is relatively rare for effective programmes to be actually offered to those who would benefit from them. Many offenders are cycled through relatively short prison terms over and over again to little lasting effect.

It is only really under the current government that we have seen any lessening of the appetite to build more prisons. Having got that far, will they have the courage to go further? They’d have my vote on that oner issue if they did.
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August 15, 2011 2:59pm
Ryan Sproull

Generally you have to be convicted of a fairly serious crime before you become a candidate for prison. I agree that the punishment angle is largely a waste of time but I also hold that the chances of rehabilitation are fairly remote in most cases where there has been recidivism.

This leaves the major function of a modern prison, ie to remove the predator from society. It doesn’t make me feel better but it does make society safer. There is little to be gained by making prisons overly harsh or more unpleasant than they have to be but I feel that throwing resources at rehabilitating ‘old lags’ is a waste of time & precious money.

Nasska,

I agree with you that quarantining people who have proven themselves to be dangerous is a sensible function of prisons. And I agree that there’s little to be gained by making prisons overly harsh or more unpleasant than they have to be.

I also think that if our focus was on quarantine and rehabilitation, not punishment, the rational thing to do would be more life sentences that actually mean life – criminals would not be released until they had been determined to be unlikely to reoffend, rather than having “served their time” and been punished.

I understand your concern about resources being wasted on trying to rehabilitate the irredeemable, but I think if we made it our serious priority rather than something thrown into the mix with punishment occasionally, we could get much better at it.

And if not, then we’re back to life means life.
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August 15, 2011 3:00pm
Scott Chris

Scholarly articles for effective rehabilitation programs in prison:

http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=effective+rehabilitation+programs+in+prison&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Would I be wrong in assuming that a society’s main goal is to attain the best outcome for the maximum number of citizens? Rehabilitation is inexact and expensive, so maybe a more ruthless yet dispassionate method is all we can afford at this moment in time. Or would that be an unconscionable approach?
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August 15, 2011 3:02pm
RightNow

Indiana State Fair stage collapse (last weekend) video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRkdwrmzYXg
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August 15, 2011 3:05pm
mikenmild

Ryan

I though life imprisonment did mean for life if there was no likelihood of reform. Admittedly, most murderers are unlikely to murder again, but there are also a fair few in there for whom life will mean life.
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August 15, 2011 3:08pm
Ryan Sproull

Would I be wrong in assuming that a society’s main goal is to attain the best outcome for the maximum number of citizens? Rehabilitation is inexact and expensive, so maybe a more ruthless yet dispassionate method is all we can afford at this moment in time. Or would that be an unconscionable approach?

Ruthlessness would be rational within that goal framework, Scott.

But we do have other values to consider, as well as money.
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August 15, 2011 3:14pm
Lee01

“Would I be wrong in assuming that a society’s main goal is to attain the best outcome for the maximum number of citizens?”

Yes, you would be wrong.
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August 15, 2011 3:14pm
Ryan Sproull

I though life imprisonment did mean for life if there was no likelihood of reform. Admittedly, most murderers are unlikely to murder again, but there are also a fair few in there for whom life will mean life.

Sorry, Mike, I should be more clear. I mean that practically all violent offences would carry a life sentence, which would mean life.
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August 15, 2011 3:15pm
Elaycee

“Can you give me a few examples of what you think would fit what I’m talking about?”

Nah – you can do that… Besides, David Garrett has summed it up nicely – see his posts at 1.49pm and 2.06pm.

Prison is a place for convicted criminals to (a) be punished and (b) to be segregated from society. It’s not part of an extended school system – you seem to think that rehabilitation in the form of taxpayer funded education is a ‘right’ for prisoners. I don’t – education starts in the home and continues right through a state funded system into tertiary study. I didn’t need to commit a crime / go to prison to gain an education. Most other people didn’t either.

Punishment is a fact of life – it is all about actions and consequences. If I did something bad as a kid, I got smacked and learned my lesson. Same at school – if I did something not allowed, I got punished. Nowadays, if I do something illegal, I have to take responsibility for my actions and accept the consequences. But the words ‘responsibility’ / ‘actions’ / ‘accountability’ / ‘consequences’ are not words often found in a lefty’s lexicon.

We are far too soft on criminals – and like it or not, there ARE many who opt for the lifestyle inside, rather than outside prison. There is no disincentive for them to respect society’s rules / the Law of the land.

It has to change – and the changes required are not accompanied by cuddles.
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August 15, 2011 3:20pm
nasska

Scott Chris

In an ideal world rehab is the Holy Grail. Unfortunately the world we live in is imperfect & our prisoners even more so. I think we would make better use of what resources we have if we concentrated on keeping the next generation of potential inmates out of trouble.

At the end of the day the safety of our citizens is paramount. All else is desirable but secondary.
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August 15, 2011 3:21pm
mikenmild

nasska

Agree, which it is one reason why the huge increase in expenditure on prisons over the last decade is such a tragedy.
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August 15, 2011 3:25pm
holysheet

Why is it that whenever we have a bad weather event (like snowing now) everybody insists this is the effect of global warming?
The news reporters always say it hasn’t been this bad since x amount of years ago. Like the last time it snowed in wellington was in 1968 or whatever date.
That means that if you go back far enough then you will find a similar event. Human kind has bugger all affect on the planets weather. The main cause of GW is the millions of tons of co2 pouring into the oceans and atmosphere from the thousands of active volcanoes.
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August 15, 2011 3:29pm
Scott Chris

“But we do have other values to consider, as well as money.”

Indeed. Sentimentality has to be quantified and weighted somehow, but at least it would take useless retribution out of the equation.

I recently made the devastatingly difficult decision to euthanize my dog, who I loved like a child but who was dying slowly from a brain tumour. Sadly, euthanasia created the best possible outcome.
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August 15, 2011 3:30pm
Ryan Sproull

Prison is a place for convicted criminals to (a) be punished and (b) to be segregated from society. It’s not part of an extended school system – you seem to think that rehabilitation in the form of taxpayer funded education is a ‘right’ for prisoners.

I didn’t say that. I think rather that rehabilitation is better for the taxpayers in the long term, both due to fewer offences and less ongoing imprisonment costs.

Punishment is a fact of life – it is all about actions and consequences. If I did something bad as a kid, I got smacked and learned my lesson. Same at school – if I did something not allowed, I got punished. Nowadays, if I do something illegal, I have to take responsibility for my actions and accept the consequences. But the words ‘responsibility’ / ‘actions’ / ‘accountability’ / ‘consequences’ are not words often found in a lefty’s lexicon.

Smacking worked for you – it changed your behaviour. Punishment at school worked for you – it changed your behaviour. That is the only relevant point about that punishment for you. What we can see is that punishment is clearly not working for criminals. The consequences of our collective obsession with punishing criminals are ongoing reoffending. We need to take responsibility for the failure of the punishment attitude to crime and take action to change it to reduce reoffending. The words are in my lexicon, see?

We are far too soft on criminals – and like it or not, there ARE many who opt for the lifestyle inside, rather than outside prison. There is no disincentive for them to respect society’s rules / the Law of the land.

If so, then that too is something that needs to be addressed.

It has to change – and the changes required are not accompanied by cuddles.

For the third? time, I said nothing about cuddles. I am talking about measurable results. Punishment at school got results from you – you changed your behaviour. Punishment in prison is not getting results for our country – ex-convicts are reoffending.

If two years of luxurious massage was found to turn a violent offender into someone who would never hit a woman again in his life, I would not trade that potential victim’s safety for your desire to see criminals suffer.

(Not actually suggesting massage is a good idea, just making a point about priorities.)
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August 15, 2011 3:32pm
Ryan Sproull

I recently made the devastatingly difficult decision to euthanize my dog, who I loved like a child but who was dying slowly from a brain tumour. Sadly, euthanasia created the best possible outcome.

I’m very very sorry to hear that.
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August 15, 2011 3:33pm
Scott Chris

nasska says:

“In an ideal world rehab is the Holy Grail”

Well said. Better society is a work in progress.
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August 15, 2011 3:35pm
Ryan Sproull

In an ideal world rehab is the Holy Grail. Unfortunately the world we live in is imperfect & our prisoners even more so. I think we would make better use of what resources we have if we concentrated on keeping the next generation of potential inmates out of trouble.

I agree. But even that – an effective strategy in preventing people from becoming criminals – requires a change in attitude from our society in general. The same mindset that suggests “crime deserves punishment” is the one that suggests “people choose to commit crimes regardless of their backgrounds and circumstances”. When the facts suggest otherwise: that backgrounds and circumstances are overwhelming indicators of future behaviour.
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August 15, 2011 3:36pm
nasska

mikenmild

Even if we are optimistic enough to think that we can steer today’s youth away from trouble yesterday’s criminals still have to be kept out of the picture. Since crims are inclined to beget crims there is an additional spinoff in keeping them away from young susceptible minds.

If we are going to have a crack at making a difference we had better get used to the idea of spending some serious money on the problem. Some of this, at least temporarily, can come from cutting back on feelgood spendups such as extensive rehab.
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August 15, 2011 3:39pm
publicwatchdog

‘Celebration of freedom of expression’ and support of Ian Wishart’s highly controversial book ‘Breaking Silence’.
Tuesday, August 16 · 11:30am – 1:30pm
Location
Outside Whitcoulls 210 Queen St Auckland City

Full credit to Whitcoulls bookstores for NOT bowing to intimidatory threats and allowing customers to choose whether or not we want to read for ourselves ‘Breaking Silence’ – which will be available from Tuesday 16 August 2011. Those who wish to celebrate and support both the book ‘Breaking Silence’ and Whitcoull’s principled stand ( profits from the sale of ‘Breaking Silence’ will be donated to charity) are very welcome to attend. (The Police have been advised of this ‘gathering’). Macsyna King – MOTHER – key Police witness who has never been charged, let alone convicted of any offence regarding the deaths of HER baby sons – has the lawful right to TELL her story. Award-winning investigative journalist Ian Wishart has the lawful right to WRITE her story. We the public have the lawful right to buy and READ this story. End of story.
Look forward to seeing you there! 🙂 (For more background information :FACEBOOK: ‘Break the Kahui Code of Silence..’ )
Penny Bright
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August 15, 2011 3:46pm
backster

Cost of imprisoment in US $US.24,000 per inmate per year. Cost per NZ Inmate per year $NZ 90,000….Seems to me there is room for some cost cutting in our prisons.
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August 15, 2011 3:47pm
MT_Tinman

Perhaps Ryan (or one of the other apologists) can detail how many crimes are NOT committed due to fear of harsh imprisonment and why recidivist offenders do everything they can to stop being sent back to harsh imprisonment.

Imprisonment, particularly harsh imprisonment, is not just to punish and to protect society but also to deter.
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August 15, 2011 3:50pm
RightNow

Comment seen on John Pagani’s column on Stuff:
“There are no jobs, I have applied for everything from despatch to driver to storeman to operations manager to export programmer to warehouse management to orderly even. Nothing at all, applied for 27 jobs, of those 15 companies did not even have the common decency to respond to my CV and cover letter.”

Not surprising that someone who claims there are ‘no jobs’ and then goes on to explain he applied for 27 jobs, wasn’t successful in his applications.
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August 15, 2011 3:55pm
Griff

The monolithic institutions of the state are not flexible enough to actively combat problems efficiently. Rehabilitation is dependent on the individual. . An systematic approach focused on results has interesting possibility. From my reading of the literature and the present government that is becoming more the focus than chasing theoretical kites. If we want less crime the answer lies in initiatives that produce less crime. Care facility for the truly insane. Preventative detention for the recidivist. Rehabilitation for the recoverable.
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August 15, 2011 3:55pm
Viking2

All that gabble and most of you missed the point. Until we stop forcing kids to stay at school or allow them to quit without a job then this will continue. Many of the older folks here will remeber telling thier olds they wanted to leave school to be told that”only when they had a job”. A reson to be, a meaningful something to do for which there is a reward called wages.
Until you grasp that you ain’t got it figured. When you do then you will understand why we need youth rates back in place asap.

Its not rocket science although the science seems to be beyond the thinking capability of so many today.

Remember the generation before mine went to war, some of them at 16, the one before had a wars as well and in between most got caught up in a depression. Do you think these events taught them something??

Work is good for the soul. A reason tobe, a reason toget up everyday until the day the lid is nailed on your box.
There’s an old saying about kids.
Busy kids are happy kids.
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August 15, 2011 3:58pm
mikenmild

backster

Corrections used to publish data on the cost per prisoner per day, with international comparisons. From memory, NZ wasn’t too bad in comparison, but the costs were rsing, mainly due to the expense of the new facilities.

MT

There is actually very little evidence to demonstrate a deterrent effect of prison. In the same way that locks only deter honest people, prisons only seem to scare those who wouldn’t offend anyway. It’s the IDEA of them being scary that makes them a popuilar recourse.
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August 15, 2011 4:02pm
Griff

“a meaningful something to do for which there is a reward called wages.”
the present welfare system teachers that this is not so you don’t need wages or a job you just go to winz the more irresponsible you are the more you get welfare is a huge carrot with no stick……. yet
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August 15, 2011 4:06pm
David Garrett

Backster: You are right…although claims that prison food in NZ is “restaurant standard” are exaggerated, it still costs about four times what it costs in Arizona to feed NZ prisoners. And YES I have in fact eaten Arizona prison food, during a study trip there three years ago…and no, they didnt lay on anything special; I just picked a random pack off the trolley.

The Americans also have some interesting ideas about perimeter security for medium security jails…like a zone between two outer fences in which vicious dogs that would otherwise be put down live… Much cheaper than guards 24 hours a day..I believe the escape rate from those jails is very low…
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August 15, 2011 4:09pm
publicwatchdog

The misleading and deceptive ‘Boycott the Macsyna King Book’ facebook site which played such a pivotal role in whipping up lynch mob type hatred against mother and key Police witness Macsyna King, which resulted in a number of book stores deciding not to stock ‘Breaking Silence’ – yesterday – was ‘gone by lunchtime’. It is no more. Good riddance. Last Wednesday, 10 August 2011 I made a formal complaint to Auckland Police about unlawful threats to kill Macsyna King / burn down bookstores, and provided evidence from Facebook ‘screen shots’ to support my complaint. It is not clear at this stage what role my complaint to the Police played in the closing down of the ‘Boycott the Macsyna King Book’ facebook site. It seems like Facebook has become the cyber equivalent of the ‘Wild West’ – where some people think they can say ANYTHING – irrespective of whether it is UNTRUE (defamatory); OFFENSIVE or THREATENING. Perhaps it is time for the definition of ‘public place’ to be extended to clearly cover ‘social media’? Penny Bright
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August 15, 2011 4:10pm
Ryan Sproull

Perhaps Ryan (or one of the other apologists) can detail how many crimes are NOT committed due to fear of harsh imprisonment and why recidivist offenders do everything they can to stop being sent back to harsh imprisonment.

Imprisonment, particularly harsh imprisonment, is not just to punish and to protect society but also to deter.

MT_Tinman,

Correct. Deterrence is the only rational justification for harsh prison environments, and it surely has an effect on recidivism rates.
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August 15, 2011 4:17pm
joana

MnM , Ryan Sproull
Good Posts.
David G.
Sorry. I can’t read your posts without thinking that you are a person who lied in court to avoid the consequences of your actions..a bit rich of you to preach now. I am not big on hypocrisy.
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August 15, 2011 4:22pm
nasska

Sorry this is so long but I only have a copy so can’t link it. It fleshes out David Garrett’s observations & may deter potential criminals but what emerges from these prisons may not be people you would want for neighbours.

“To those of you not familiar with Joe Arpaio, he is the Maricopa County Sheriff (Arizona) and he keeps getting elected over and over again.
These are some of the reasons why:
Sheriff Joe Arpaio created the “tent city jail” to save Arizona from spending tens of million of dollars on another expensive prison complex.
He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.
He banned smoking and porno magazines in the jails, and took away their weightlifting equipment and cut off all but “G” movies. He says: “they’re in jail to pay a debt to society not to build muscles so they can assault innocent people when they leave.”
He started chain gangs to use the inmates to do free work on county and city projects and save taxpayer’s money.
Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn’t get sued for discrimination.
He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again but only allows the Disney channel and the weather channel.
When asked why the weather channel he replied: “so these morons will know how hot it’s gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.”
He cut off coffee because it has zero nutritional value and is therefore a waste of taxpayer money. When the inmates complained, he told them, “This isn’t the Ritz/Carlton. If you don’t like it, don’t come back.”
He also bought the Newt Gingrich lecture series on US history that he pipes into the jails. When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat, he replied that a democratic lecture series that actually tells the truth for a change would be welcome and that it might even explain why 95% of the inmates were in his jails in the first place.
With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just set a new record for June 2nd), the Associated Press reports: About 2,000 inmates living in a barbed- wire-surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their government-issued pink boxer shorts.
On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing pink boxer shorts were chatting in the tents, where temperatures reached 128 degrees. “This is hell. It feels like we live in a furnace,” said Ernesto Gonzales, an inmate for 2 years with 10 more to go. “It’s inhumane.”
Joe Arpaio, who makes his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. “Criminals should be punished for their crimes- not live in luxury until it’s time for parole, only to go out and commit more crimes so they can come back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things many taxpayers can’t afford to have for themselves.”
Wednesday he told all the inmates who were complaining of the heat in the tents: “It’s between 120 to 130 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to walk all day in the sun, wearing full battle gear and get shot at, and they have not committed any crimes, so shut your damned mouths!”
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August 15, 2011 4:28pm
KiwiGreg

Is it just me or is Bernard Hickey looking and sounding more and more like John Minto?
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August 15, 2011 4:34pm
Griff

@joana
D G has some good debating points. The man knows his past. We all no who he is. It is a great pity that its stopped him being active in Parliament.
so fuck off
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August 15, 2011 4:38pm
Elaycee

joana says: “I am not big on hypocrisy.”

But that didn’t stop you from telling porkies – did it?

Remember your big expose that you knew of someone who was locked up for stealing a T shirt? Turned out that they also had an issue with their probation officer / also had another issue with the awful drug P and was also convicted for stealing a T shirt.

All adds up to prison time.

Pot. Kettle. Black.
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August 15, 2011 5:04pm
Elaycee

@nasska – Sheriff Joe Arpaio is exactly what we need in NZ:

“Criminals should be punished for their crimes- not live in luxury until it’s time for parole, only to go out and commit more crimes so they can come back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things many taxpayers can’t afford to have for themselves.”

😛
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August 15, 2011 5:06pm
wikiriwhis business

40,000 signatures calling for GST off food and a tax placed on financial speculation. Outstanding.

Goldman Sachs should be the first to oppose. Bet their investment banker PM has already had a fax from them
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August 15, 2011 5:40pm
Lee01

“Goldman Sachs should be the first to oppose. Bet their investment banker PM has already had a fax from them”

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

This kind of retarded and infantile rhetoric gets very boring very quickly.

Wake me up when you have something intelligent to say.
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August 15, 2011 5:46pm
joana

Griff
”Manners maketh a man.” Why can’t you cope with different views? Abuse detracts from whatever it is you are trying to say; tho I do admire you springing to the defence.
Elaycee
I still think you are girl.
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August 15, 2011 5:50pm
joana

of someone else.
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August 15, 2011 5:51pm
Elaycee

@joana – As usual, you try to obscure / deflect the fact you have been caught telling porkies.

Some things don’t change….. so when you stop telling porkies, I’ll stop pointing them out.
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August 15, 2011 5:55pm
Griff

Its your attack on the man that I find offensive not your Views
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August 15, 2011 5:57pm
starboard

“requires a change in attitude from our society in general.”

Be fuck it does. Why should society change their thinking and attitudes..how about the minority shitbags change theirs? Dont break the law..simple. We have given in to these bastards for too long..too much carrot , not enough stick. Joe Arpaio’s got the only real idea.
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August 15, 2011 5:58pm
wf

Grif said:
” D G has some good debating points. The man knows his past. We all (k)no(w) who he is. It is a great pity that it’s stopped him being active in Parliament. . . . .”

I distinctly remember having a dinner table discussion about acquiring false identities around the time of The Day of the Jackal movie. There were a couple of detectives and a lawyer present among others. Apparently it would be the easiest to do if one used the identity of a dead person. There was no security regarding personal details.
We were too lazy to actually do it, but I’m not surprised that a young fellow might have done it to prove a point. I do not believe that DG should have had to leave Parliament because of a media beat up.
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August 15, 2011 6:56pm
nasska

A man goes into the doctors feeling a little ill

The doctor checks him over and says, ‘Sorry, I have some bad news,

you have “Yellow 24”, a really nasty virus.

It’s called Yellow 24 because it turns your blood yellow and you usually only have 24 hours to live.

There’s no known cure so just go home and enjoy your final precious moments on earth.’

So he trudges home to his wife and breaks the news.

Distraught, she asks him to go to the housey with her that evening as he’s never been there with her before.

They arrive at the housey and with his first card he gets four corners and wins $35.

Then, with the same card, he gets a line and wins $320

Then he gets the full house and wins $1000.

Then the National Game comes up and he wins that too getting $380,000.

The housey caller gets him up on stage and says,

‘Son, I’ve been here 20 years and I’ve never seen anyone win four corners, a line, the full-house and the national game on the same card.

You must be the luckiest man on Earth!’

‘Lucky?’ he screamed. ‘Lucky? I’ll have you know I’ve got Yellow 24.’

‘Well bugger me,’ says the housey caller. ‘You’ve won the meat raffle as well!!
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August 15, 2011 7:01pm
reid

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8700848/Ministry-of-Defence-equipment-on-sale-to-raise-cash-for-military.html

Good stuff here, armoured jags for 12-25,000 pounds. Bargain, bet they’ve got both great armour and power. So convert it back to normal weight, sell the armour accessories to pay for it and you’ve got a late model well designed well maintained tuned to buggery very fast beast indeed.

Or keep the armour and just use it for fun, for example at Green Party functions with all the hippies standing awound cwying while you wev and wev your massive gas guzzling beast and destroy the planet before their eyes. And they can’t do a thing, cause it’s armoured.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
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August 15, 2011 7:03pm
nasska

Reid

If you carry on like this I don’t think that the Gweens are going to like you very much.
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August 15, 2011 7:12pm
David Garrett

I would like to be able to say that the recidivism rates from Sherriff Joe’s jails were markedly lower than those seen in similar inmate cohorts…unfortunately that is not the case: they are no better – but no worse – than those among similar inmates who have gone to other conventional jails.

I also have to say that this is one of those things on which I disagree with that fine citizen Garth McVicar.. Having met the man, I regard Sheriff Joe as something of a caricature, and being first and foremost concerned with his image.

But then, in a society where the citizens of the county pay for the county jail, he delivers humane if harsh incarceration of inmates for a very low costs to the Arizona equivalent of ratepayers – which is why he keeps getting elected. He has also proved numerous times that budgeted costs are wildly higher than they need to be; from memory he had a “normal” (i.e not tents) jail built for not much more than 20% of its budgeted cost.

Having acknowleged that recidivism rates from his jails are the same, one cant help wondering what they would be from a tent jail – surrounded by razor wire of course, as in Arizona – built near the desert road….
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August 15, 2011 7:19pm
nasska

The husband had the remote and was switching back and forth
between a fishing channel and the porn channel.

The wife became more and more annoyed and finally said:
“For god’s sake! Leave it on the porn channel.
You already know how to fish!”
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August 15, 2011 7:30pm
Viking2

Turpentine vs. Holy Water

A little boy was sitting on the curb with a gallon of turpentine and shaking it up watching all the bubbles.
A priest came along and asked the little boy what he had.
The little boy replied, ‘This is the most powerful liquid in the world, it’s called turpentine.’
The priest said, ‘No, the most powerful liquid in the world is Holy Water. If you take some of this Holy Water and rub it on a pregnant woman’s belly she will pass a healthy baby.’
The little boy replied, ‘You take some of this here turpentine and rub it on a cat’s behind and he’ll pass a Harley Davidson.’..
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August 15, 2011 7:34pm
Steve

‘Having acknowleged that recidivism rates from his jails are the same, one cant help wondering what they would be from a tent jail – surrounded by razor wire of course, as in Arizona – built near the desert road….’

cont
In August, with a freezing polar blast, wash in the Waikato Stream, bedding of bullrush.
All night they scream “Mummy Mummy Mummy”
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August 15, 2011 7:35pm
Steve

New Element Found.

A major research institution has recently announced the discovery of the heaviest chemical yet known to science. This new element has been tentatively named ‘Governmentium”

Governmentium has one neutron, 12 assistant neutrons, 75 deputy neutrons, and 224 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.

Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected as it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact.

A tiny amount of Governmentium causes one reaction to take over 4 days to complete when it would normally take less than a second. Governmentium has a normal half-life of 5 years; it does not decay but instead, it undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places.

In fact, Governmentium’s mass will actually increase over time since each reorganization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.

This characteristic of moron-promotion leads some scientists to speculate that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a certain quantity in concentration.

This hypocritical quantity is referred to as ‘Critical Morass’. You will know it when you see it.

When catalyzed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium, an element which radiates just as much energy since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons.
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August 15, 2011 7:41pm
jaba

well, I work in a large industry working in very difficult conditions and I have just heard our moronic union are going out on a 24 hr strike. These people earn over 100k in MANY cases. good grief
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August 15, 2011 7:42pm
nasska

TOP TIPS:

BI-CURIOUS men. Go to a male doctor and complain of rectal bleeding. The resultant erotic anal probe will be a safe way to find out whether gayness is really for you.
MONKS. Conduct a life of celibacy and emotional solitude without joining a monastery by simply living with my wife. It’s more comfortable and you’ll be able to watch TV and use the internet.
FOOL your friends into thinking you use expensive butter by simply using cheap margarine and ripping holes in the bread.
DOG OWNERS. Never lose your TV remote control again. Simply sellotape it to the back of your dog, and hey presto! Whistle, and the device is at your beck and call.
WOMEN: Prevent your husband from cheating on you by shagging him every now and again.
DO YOU find lovemaking boring? Not getting the same thrill from it that you used to? Just the same old repetitive thing? Try finding someone to do it with.
EXPERIENCE the thrills of a skiing holiday without the expense. Simply sellotape two planks of wood to your feet,sit in your freezer for three hours, then run into a tree as fast as you can.
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August 15, 2011 7:50pm
mikenmild

nasska

Than fuck for Viz!
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August 15, 2011 7:52pm
Steve

Viz

Strange name for a partner
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August 15, 2011 7:58pm
Scott Chris

I have formed a mental image of Sheriff Joe Arpaio:

http://lectronice.com/user/files/solium/balphegor.jpg
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August 15, 2011 8:02pm
nasska

mikenmild

Yes, I got a few new ones from Viz but I already had a lot on file. There’s quite a lot of other stuff on that site worthwhile going through when I get myself motivated.
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August 15, 2011 8:06pm
mikenmild

nasska

Actually just got one of the books a few days ago plus Top Tips 2.

‘A glass full of Marmite, topped with shaving foam, makes a quite convincing pint of Guinness, and has the advantage of tasting nicer.’
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August 15, 2011 8:14pm
nasska

Scott Chris

There’s a photo of him on this site: http://www.mcso.org/
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August 15, 2011 8:15pm
jaba

A male-to-female transexual was recently interviewed on a radio talk show.
The DJ asked the transexual about what, if any, pain the person experienced
during the operation. The transexual replied, “Well, when they cut my penis off,
that really didn’t hurt too much. Even when they implanted the breasts in my
chest, well, that really didn’t hurt too much either….”
“Then you didn’t experience any real physical pain at all then?”
“Hell no! It hurt like hell when they stuck that big fucking needle in my
head and sucked out all my brains and then cut my salary in half!”
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August 15, 2011 8:27pm
nasska

Sitting on the side of the road waiting to catch speeding drivers, a police officer sees a car puttering along at 40km/h. He thinks, “this driver is just as dangerous as a speeder.” So he turns on his lights and pulls the driver over.

Approaching the car, he notices that there are five old ladies — two in the front seat and three in the back.

The driver, confused, says to him, “Officer, I don’t understand, I was doing exactly the speed limit. What seems to be the problem?”

“Madam,” the officer replies, “You weren’t speeding, but you should know that driving much slower than the speed limit can also be a danger to other drivers.”

“Slower than the speed limit?” she asked. No sir, I was doing the speed limit exactly… Forty kilometres in an hour,” the old woman says a bit proudly. The Police officer, trying to contain a chuckle explains to her that “40″ was the highway number, not the speed limit. A bit embarrassed, the woman grinned and thanked the officer for pointing out her error.

“But before I let you go, Ma’am, I have to ask… Is everyone in this car ok? These women seem awfully shaken and they haven’t muttered a single peep this whole time.” the officer asks.

“Oh, they’ll be alright in a minute officer. We just got off State Highway 195.”
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August 15, 2011 8:34pm
reid

If you can watch this without crying you’re a harder man than I am.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/8662030/Norway-shooting-victims-the-77-dead-in-pictures.html
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August 15, 2011 8:42pm
reid

No man is an Island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.
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August 15, 2011 8:46pm
wikiriwhis business

Lee01 (107)

You my friend are probably general area NZ manager from Goldman Sachs
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August 15, 2011 8:54pm
Rex Widerstrom

Griff suggests:

The only “right” a human has is the right to be a human

I assume you’re aware that your position on human rights is completely in accord with no less a statesman than one Karl Marx, who said human rights are the:

rights of the egoistic man, separated from his fellow men and from the community

because he saw

The practical application of the right of liberty is the right of property… the right of self-interest…

and refused to allow a constitution for newly-revolutionised Russia which would have protected human rights, including the rights to a fair trial and free spech?

Have a read of “On the Jewish Question” and / or “Critique of the Gotha Program” or this discourse on “The Marxist approach to human rights prepared under the auspices of none other than the UN.

Then ponder which side of the human rights debate you actually belong on… because you can’t go denying them to a category of human (prisoners, even violent offenders) without denying them altogether – they’re not “the rights of nice humans” or “the rights of humans who obey whatever happens to be the law at the time”.

Because when you deny the need for human rights, you find yourself in the company of some very odd bedfellows.
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August 15, 2011 8:56pm
reid

…prepared under the auspices of none other than the UN.

Rex when that happens sometimes it’s a good thing but usually it’s not.
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August 15, 2011 9:08pm
Rex Widerstrom

@reid

That was my point. Given the propensity for the UN to wag the finger at some nations for human rights abuses while some of the worst offenders sit on its own Security Council and escape censure, the fact that that collection of hypocritical despots held a seminar on Marxist approaches to human rights – which accords with Griff’s approach – ought to be enough to “scare him straight” 😀
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August 15, 2011 9:18pm
reid

Well let’s hope so Rex. My apologies for hallucinating you’d gone all mental.

On another note, I wonder what Liarbore says about all the power usage right now during these storms? Should we stop using it to save the pwanet?
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August 15, 2011 9:22pm
reid

What a diwhemma.
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August 15, 2011 9:26pm
Ryan Sproull

Be fuck it does. Why should society change their thinking and attitudes..how about the minority shitbags change theirs? Dont break the law..simple. We have given in to these bastards for too long..too much carrot , not enough stick. Joe Arpaio’s got the only real idea.

The minority shitbags won’t change theirs. We know this. We’re not giving in to broken people to acknowledge that something has gone wrong. We’re all to some degree responsible for the society around us, and so we have to man up and do what we can to change the situation so that people are not sculpted by their environment to become shitbags.
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August 15, 2011 9:43pm
wat dabney

ACT pressing all the right buttons. Makes National look like the bunch of pathetic timeservers they are

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10745185
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August 15, 2011 9:55pm
jcuk

Scot Chris … since you didn’t twig … my astrology comment was tonge in cheek
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August 15, 2011 10:14pm
publicwatchdog

So – are ACT Leader Don Brash and/or ACT candidate for Epsom John Banks, going to attend the ‘celebration of freedom of democracy’ and support Whitcoull’s stocking Ian Wishart’s controversial book ‘Breaking Silence’ tomorrow, Tuesday 16 August 2011 from 11.30am – 1.30pm outside Whitcoulls Queen Street store? Given that ACT are supposed to be the Party that is SO big on defence of ‘freedom of expression’ – is anyone aware of ANY statement at ANY time from ACT Leader Don Brash and/or ACT candidate for Epsom John Banks in support of the public’s right to buy and read ‘Breaking Silence’? Just asking…….. 🙂
Penny Bright
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August 15, 2011 10:25pm
Put it away

No penny, I don’t believe ACT does support the “right” of any nutters to force a private business to sell their book. It is Whitcoulls choice and no-one else’s what books they want to stock, for them to decide on whatever criteria they see fit. If you don’t like their choices, shop somewhere else. Freedom of speech does not give you the right to take away someone else’s freedom to chose if they want to participate in your speech or not. End of story.
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August 15, 2011 10:33pm
publicwatchdog

errrr…..actually ‘Put it away’ – it was unlawful threats to staff and property that caused some bookstores to change their minds and decide NOT to stock ‘Breaking Silence’ after they had originally agreed to do so. Evidence of those threats was provided by myself to accompany my formal complaint to Auckland Police on Wednesday 10 August 2011. On Sunday 14 August 2011 the misleading and deceptive ‘Boycott the Macsyna King Book’ facebook site disappeared. The ‘roll call’ of who made a stand in defence of freedom of expression regarding support for ‘Breaking Silence’ and who did not, will show who ‘practices what they preach’ and who does not. WHERE WAS ACT? Where was Don Brash? Where was John Banks? Oh – that’s right – they’re not REALLY ACT Party stalwarts are they – being in reality just National Party takeover merchants? Where were the ‘Libertarians’? ……………? Just asking 🙂 Penny Bright
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August 16, 2011 12:27am
starboard

I wasnt going to buy the book but since you keep blowing on about it P’ enny I will go out of my way to get one…thank you.
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August 16, 2011 4:29am
joana

Elaycee
I was not caught telling ‘porkies”as you so quaintly call them. When you grow up , let me know.
David Garret committed a very serious crime for which he went completely unpunished. The crimes of every criminal follow him to the grave. David Garrett is no exception. He will be forever remembered for his horrendous crime..I am not attacking the man..I am not sure he is a man is the way I use the word..I am simply stating facts. He may dream of escaping his history but it will never happen. His own history will hold him firmly in its grasp and so it should.
Law and order was a convenient add on for Act. An easy drum to beat. Act’s man in CHCH fell spectacularly from Grace..David Henderson..Another criminal who has never been charged..He owes so many business people in CHCH money.Now the local Business people have come out strongly against Kweon ,a former Act candidate..He is a first time city councillor who does not understand local govt law..
If you are going to come out swinging about law and order , your own team has to be squeaky clean..Act’s team going right up to Hide was not squeaky clean.
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August 16, 2011 8:57am
Griff

Rex Widerstrom
“Rights” as the left like to call them are not rights they are obligation enforced on the majority for the benefit of the minority.
We only have the right to be human just as sheep have the right to be sheep. When we breed we take on responsibility for our offspring this is not a right of our offspring it is a duty we impose on our self’s
When we gather together in groups we end up giving some of our duty to some sort of leadership. This is not their right but our duty that gives them the ability to lead. When this duty is ignored sooner or later we take it back. This has happened though out history. We have taken on the duty to help the less able in society. This is not a right that they hold this is a duty that we hold.
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August 16, 2011 11:43am

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