General Debate 1 September 2011

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Monique Watson

Especially as his stand point on legalization is so stridently against decriminalization.
This is the report he ignored

@Griff

There are other causes more deserving of passion than the fight to see the laws around cannabis relaxed.

BTW I believe that cannabis on it’s own is less likely to cause harm than say alcohol on it’s own. But it does contribute to societal harm. From what I have seen as a landlord is that a popular cocktail is booze drugs and gambling and this wrecks havoc. And that is not an attack on those who might smoke a joint, have a glass of whiskey and do some light gambling as entertainment.

For me other social issues line up to be addressed before such “nice to haves” as more liberal laws around drugs. A population at large would seem to have to be safe from epidemics such as alcohol abuse, suicide and child abuse before relaxing laws around a popular drug. There is no evidence that lowering the drinking age to 18 made us more responsible drinkers.
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September 1, 2011 1:45pm
redeye

How many were linked (directly or not) to cannabis Elaycee. To get back to my point.
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September 1, 2011 1:46pm
Griff

Elaycee
I will drink to that

The debate interest me as the harm of social drugs is not reflected in the legal proscription on use.
In a just society there would be a direct correlation between harm and regulation.
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September 1, 2011 1:50pm
kowtow

Alcohol is an integral part of my history,culture and religion.

So to all of you anti alcohol hand wringing wowsers ,fuck off.
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September 1, 2011 1:51pm
redeye

I’m not suggesting you can’t kill yourself if you want to kowtow. It’s your choice. Which beggars the question. Where’s my choice?
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September 1, 2011 1:54pm
Griff

kowtow

No one is suggesting a ban on alcohol just the legalization safer alternatives.
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September 1, 2011 1:58pm
nasska

kowtow

Now you’re getting close. Alcohol, responsibly used, is part of your life. If there are risks you understand what they are & your use of alcohol is your business & that of no one else.

Now, supposing that someone substitutes marijuana for alcohol. Why should it now be the concern of the government?
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September 1, 2011 2:02pm
Griff

Monique Watson

You belong to a party that has denied cannabis’s less harmful effects and your leader has proudly stopped reform.

But for luck he would have a criminal record and could have had his life drastically altered by the effects of anti drug legislation.

He is definitely a hypocrite and should resign as he broke the law he is supporting.
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September 1, 2011 2:08pm
cha

Decade of Deceit: Anti-Semitic 9/11 Conspiracy Theories 10 Years Later
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September 1, 2011 2:14pm
Elaycee

@redeye – sorry, you’ll need to do your own research on cannabis use / effects.

On occasion I’m a ‘pisshead’ but never a dopehead. 🙂
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September 1, 2011 2:16pm
Pete George

I think cannabis law could be a good candidate for a referendum. As usual getting a well informed well reasoned debate could be the hard part.

There’s far more to it than authoritarian or not. Societies have to have limits and laws to function as far as I know – is there anywhere in the world where it has been proven that “the society will be decent if it is left to its own”.
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September 1, 2011 2:21pm
kowtow

nasska
Cannabis (along with other illegal narcotics) use is a relatively recent and dangerous arrival to our society. I do not equate the alcohol and cannabisin the way you do and so your argument as far as I’m concerned is redundant.

I am completly relaxed about sitting down with my children and having a glass or 2 of beer or wine with them.As indeed I did with my parents. This would not apply to any of the substances that the anti alcohol lobby seem to promote.

Now if you want go ahead and promote drug use but fuck off and leave alcohol out of this. They’re not the same thing.
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September 1, 2011 2:24pm
Ryan Sproull

Now if you want go ahead and promote drug use but fuck off and leave alcohol out of this. They’re not the same thing.

Kowtow,

You do realise that alcohol is a drug, right?
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September 1, 2011 2:29pm
mikenmild

Mind altering substances are distinguished legally mainly by their history, not by any objective assessment of harm. Alcohol and tobacco, with which we have the longest familiarity, also cause the most damage through their widespread use. Banning substances on the basis that they are harmful is not only illogical, as most such substances are manifestly less harmful than alocohol or tobacco, but also counter-productive in that banning merely promotes crime and hinders efforts to minimise harm from substance abuse.
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September 1, 2011 2:30pm
pdm

Still no moderaters at Red Alert – 5 and a half hours after my 9.40am comment. How many others are waiting.

The Back stabbing course must have been extended to include cleaning up the blood off the floor.
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September 1, 2011 2:31pm
Ryan Sproull

Mind altering substances are distinguished legally mainly by their history, not by any objective assessment of harm. Alcohol and tobacco, with which we have the longest familiarity, also cause the most damage through their widespread use. Banning substances on the basis that they are harmful is not only illogical, when most such substances are manifestly less harmful that alocohol or tobacco, but also counter-productive in that banning merely promotes crime and hinders efforts to minimise harm from substance abuse.

Basically, yes. But alcohol is not only harmful to the user, but also to others (domestic abuse, car accidents, sexual assault, etc.)
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September 1, 2011 2:33pm
Elaycee

Beverage alcohol (ethyl alcohol) is a drug. But a drug is simply defined as “any substance which when absorbed into a living organism may modify one or more of its functions.” This means that foods, vitamins, hormones and the other substances described are all drugs. Practically everything is a drug including the oxygen we breathe. Nevertheless, there is a continuing effort by temperance-oriented groups and agencies to emphasize that alcohol is a drug.

By equating alcoholic beverages with illegal street drugs, anti-alcohol activists attempt to create negative attitudes toward such beverages. That makes it easier to promote higher alcohol taxes, more stringent restrictions on the times and places alcohol can be sold, censorship of alcohol advertising, and similar policies to reduce alcohol consumption.

Although this is a deceptive tactic, it appears to have been embraced by those with a fixed agenda.
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September 1, 2011 2:34pm
Scott Chris

weihana – ‘the plain meaning of the word as most people understand it.’

True – Still, my point was that the term ‘authoritarian’ is not absolute, but relative. Therefore, one cannot *be* authoritarian, rather one can be less or more authoritarian than such and such.
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September 1, 2011 2:39pm
leftyliberal

@Elaycee (1:12pm) You obviously haven’t met Mr Zouai and his family. He runs by all accounts a successful business and is certainly courteous to his customers, as are his wider family. As far as I have been able to observe, he and his family are getting on with enjoying living in NZ, whilst people like you say silly, abusive things without regard to how it may impact him and his family.
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September 1, 2011 2:44pm
redeye

Cannabis (along with other illegal narcotics) use is a relatively recent and dangerous arrival to our society

Actually I think you find it’s been around for quite some time.

“In the fifth century BC the Greek historian Herodotus wrote of the use of cannabis by the Scythian people of the Black Sea region:“
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September 1, 2011 2:46pm
Scott Chris

A psychoactive drug is a chemical substance that crosses the blood–brain barrier and acts primarily upon the central nervous system where it affects brain function, resulting in changes in perception, mood, consciousness, cognition, and behavior.

I think alcohol qualifies, but once again, we are talking about commonly perceived semantics, which are less meaningful than absolute descriptions.
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September 1, 2011 2:46pm
nasska

kowtow

I have no ambition to deprive you of your mind altering substance of choice….all you are being asked to do is to extend the same courtesy to others. Marijuana is not a new or synthesised drug…it is a byproduct of a plant that grows naturally in various parts of the world. I am light on the detail but it was legal in most of the world until about eighty years ago. It wasn’t banned because of harm but to give the authorities another stick to beat the subversives of the time with.

Also please note that cannabis is not a narcotic.
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September 1, 2011 2:47pm
Ryan Sproull

I think alcohol qualifies, but once again, we are talking about commonly perceived semantics, which are less meaningful than absolute descriptions.

Yes, and it’s the law that’s telling people what’s a “drug” (read: bad) and what’s a “drink” or a “smoke” (read: acceptable).

Observed without such prejudice, alcohol is far more harmful to the user and those around the user than cannabis is.
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September 1, 2011 2:50pm
F E Smith

Scott Chris,

re your 11.16am comment: the escaper was 8 months FROM parole eligibility, not eligible for parole after 8 months. There was little chance he would have been paroled at the first go. Or even the second, probably.
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September 1, 2011 2:50pm
Scott Chris

Note: absolute description = least ambiguous.
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September 1, 2011 2:50pm
Ryan Sproull

The really pressing issue for the cannabis liberty against the current nanny-statism against it is that of accurate testing for the purposes of DUI legislation. I don’t know if they’re addressing it, but that’s where any research funding they have should be going.
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September 1, 2011 2:52pm
kowtow

Zouai may be all those things.
He chose NZ and committed a crime coming here. He was safe in a 3rd country,he did not need to come here.
Same with the illegal immigrants forcing their way into Oz. All of them are coming through 3rd countries, that is an abuse of the system.
And a lot more could be coming this way despite what the gummint says, those Sri Lankans were on their way here. And our govt seems to want to make the Oz solution part of our problem.

I’m sure lots of them are very nice people and many would make very good neighbours,but the whole thing is being abused.
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September 1, 2011 2:52pm
F E Smith

Ryan, have to disagree with your 2.50pm assertion. Cannabis is indeed very harmful, just in a different way to alcohol.
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September 1, 2011 2:52pm
Scott Chris

F E Smith

True. And I expect the sentence was reasonable according to sentencing guidelines. My assertion is that he was as morally culpable as a successful murderer, but our justice system doesn’t weight it that way.
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September 1, 2011 2:54pm
F E Smith

Scott,

“he was as morally culpable as a successful murderer,”

How so?
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September 1, 2011 2:56pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, have to disagree with your 2.50pm assertion. Cannabis is indeed very harmful, just in a different way to alcohol.

I believe cannabis is harmful, just nowhere near the social ill of alcohol. And I’m speaking mainly about the harm to others, rather than harm to the user, as I don’t think the state has a leg to stand on except when it comes to harm to others.
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September 1, 2011 2:56pm
Elaycee

@leftyliberal says: “@Elaycee (1:12pm) You obviously haven’t met Mr Zouai and his family. He runs by all accounts a successful business and is certainly courteous to his customers, as are his wider family. As far as I have been able to observe, he and his family are getting on with enjoying living in NZ, whilst people like you say silly, abusive things without regard to how it may impact him and his family.”

That’s just lovely for you. But I happen to think Ahmed Zaoui is a parasite who has sucked in sufficient hand wringers within NZ to be able to stay here (despite his dubious background) and fill his pockets and set up a kebab cart courtesy of the taxpayer. IMO, he should have been put back on the same plane in which he destroyed his fake South African passport and sent back to Malaysia. As a taxpayer, I strongly object to the fact that this farce has cost us over $NZ1Million.
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September 1, 2011 2:56pm
redeye

Ryan, have to disagree with your 2.50pm assertion. Cannabis is indeed very harmful, just in a different way to alcohol.

Seeing as your a stickler for semantics this should read “Cannabis can be very harmful”. The difference being it is not harmful to the majority but can be harmful to those susceptible to psychosis and those still developing. A lot like alcohol in that regard.
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September 1, 2011 2:59pm
leftyliberal

@Elaycee: I was making no comment on whether or not Mr Zouai should have been allowed in the country or otherwise, merely responding to this statement of yours:

“there are not many things in life that give me the total shits but Ahmed Zouai definitely falls into that category”

Was I misinterpreting “give me the total shits” as suggesting that Mr Zouai is in some way someone to be feared?
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September 1, 2011 2:59pm
kowtow

red eye
now you’re telling us you’re Sythian?
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September 1, 2011 3:00pm
Scott Chris

“Observed without such prejudice, alcohol is far more harmful to the user and those around the user than cannabis is.”

I agree, but law is political and politics is based to a certain extent on ‘common sense’ and

“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” Albert Einstein

The only way to overcome this is for kids to be taught apolitcal critical theory.
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September 1, 2011 3:05pm
Weihana

“more than seven alcohol-related deaths per 100,000 people in the Christchurch, Wellington and Dunedin regions. Auckland had a rate of 4.8 alcohol-related deaths per 100,000 people that year.”

7 in 100,000 chance justifies the term “likely”?
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September 1, 2011 3:05pm
redeye

kow tow: One of the biggest medical uses of cannabis in the 19th century was for the treatment of menstrual cramps and reduction of labour pain. Queen Victoria was prescribed cannabis for this reason by her physician J.R. Reynolds
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September 1, 2011 3:07pm
F E Smith

“Seeing as your a stickler for semantics”

I try to get my spelling right too, but don’t always proofread properly either. But never mind…

No, I believe that Cannabis IS very harmful. It has higher levels of some carcinogens than tobacco, and it has effects that go beyond those who are susceptible to psychosis. Plus, I do include the effects it has on the personal life of the smoker- in my experience a large number of my clients have suffered from the effects of cannabis and even though you may argue that those effects were localised to the smoker, I would disagree based on the effects both on their family and on the welfare system.

Indeed, the main description that I think can be applied to the apparent effects on the regular cannabis is that they usually end up deserving the appellation ‘loser’.

You can disagree. I base my view on practice in criminal defence, where a relatively large number of my clients seem to be regular partakers of the drug.

Alcohol is also a very dangerous substance, but a lot more people seem to drink and not have serious issues than can be said for cannabis.

Tobacco smoking is such a non-issue that I really don’t care about it. But, funnily enough, I would say that over 80% of my clients over time have been smokers. Not that I am saying that there is a connection!

EDIT: yeah, and cocaine was the next wonder drug until they discovered it caused more issues than it solved.
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September 1, 2011 3:11pm
Weihana

Monique Watson

“There are other causes more deserving of passion than the fight to see the laws around cannabis relaxed. ”

Given that convictions tend to restrict future opportunities, that prohibition provides a huge stream of income for organized crime, and that such laws inevitably affect minorities disproportionately, I would say it’s an issue worthy of attention. Infinitely more worthy than amendments to copyright legislation certainly.

“BTW I believe that cannabis on it’s own is less likely to cause harm than say alcohol on it’s own. But it does contribute to societal harm. From what I have seen as a landlord is that a popular cocktail is booze drugs and gambling and this wrecks havoc.”

But are these things the root cause of such havoc or merely associated symptoms of underlying social dysfunction?

“A population at large would seem to have to be safe from epidemics such as alcohol abuse, suicide and child abuse before relaxing laws around a popular drug.”

And given that alcohol abuse, suicide and child abuse are things which will never be cured, in other words you’re suggesting we never address the need for drug law reform.
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September 1, 2011 3:15pm
Griff

F E Smith

That is an opinion unless you can link to the site you uplifted your information from.

One study of many that conclude that cannabis is far less harmful than alcohol
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm

Researchers led by Professor David Nutt, a former chief drugs adviser to the British government, asked drug-harm experts to rank 20 drugs (legal and illegal) on 16 measures of harm to the user and to wider society, such as damage to health, drug dependency, economic costs and crime. Alcohol is the most harmful drug in Britain, scoring 72 out of a possible 100, far more damaging than heroin (55) or crack cocaine (54). It is the most harmful to others by a wide margin, and is ranked fourth behind heroin, crack, and methamphetamine (crystal meth) for harm to the individual. The authors point out that the model’s weightings, though based on judgment, were analysed and found to be stable as large changes would be needed to change the overall rankings.
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September 1, 2011 3:16pm
Elaycee

@leftyliberal – This particular discussion commenced at 12.56pm (courtesy of kowtow) and I responded at 1.23pm.

I resent the waste of taxpayer money on panty-waist causes – and Ahmed Zaoui was definitely one such cause. He played the NZ system like a concent piano (together with wannabe Labour candidate and lawyer Deborah Manning) and now (NZ$1 Million later) Zaoui serves kebabs from a caravan in Palmerston North and his family all lives here courtesy of the NZ taxpayer. The whole scenario gives me the shits. I would have returned him to Malaysia on the same plane in which he destroyed his fake South African passport.

You ask whether I think that: “Mr Zouai is in some way someone to be feared?”

With that comment, you are clearly trolling….
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September 1, 2011 3:17pm
labrator

Alcohol the most harmful drug.
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September 1, 2011 3:19pm
F E Smith

Griff,

absolutely it is an opinion, although there was a discussion on this a while back where research on the harmfulness of cannabis was provided. I am simply saying that in my experience, the harm caused by cannabis is greater given the number of users than that of alcohol. I accept that alcohol can have a greater cost to society when it comes to death and destruction. I just don’t use them as the only indicators.

I also note that there is no definition of the indicators in the link you provided, so don’t think that study can be conclusive.
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September 1, 2011 3:20pm
Weihana

Falafulu Fisi,

“Exploitation via paying low wages is not a rights violations. If the employer used a gun or coercion to force the low wage earner to take that $2/hr job, that’s rights violations. The state should step in there to prosecute the wealthy/business person.”

Sorry I was going to respond to the rest of your post but I’ve since realized I have nothing more to say. I do not agree with the notion of universal rights and we can only talk about rights if we first agree on an underlying moral framework. I think it’s safe to say that you are arguing from a deontological ethical framework where the “non-aggression principle” is the axiom from which you derive your ethical rules. I do not agree with that approach to ethics and consider it fundamentally flawed.
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September 1, 2011 3:23pm
redeye

F E Smith.

As you say, your basing opinion on your experience with criminals and losers. This is also the demographic the media like to push when they talk about dope smokers.

I too am basing my opinion on my experiences but they have been largely with hard working and professional people. All of them are still leading healthy and productive lives. And in my opinion they shouldn’t be categorised as criminals simply because they choose to relax with a less dangerous alternative.

Cannabis and Cocaine are completely different substances. They should never be categorised together.

But I imagine the price of the stuff largely prohibits the use amongst you client base. Rather amongst your colleagues.
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September 1, 2011 3:26pm
nasska

F E Smith

Do you not think that much of the ill effects of cannabis you witness might actually be due to the use of some other drug? My reasoning is that use of dope is so wide spread that it hardly raises eyebrows when someone admits to its use rather than P or some other more dangerous drug. Pot is also smoked by P users to relax & unwind.

I haven’t lived a cloistered life yet I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone violent or dangerously criminal as a result of its use. Coupled with alcohol maybe but that is usually because dope, along with giving someone the ‘munchies’ also increases thirst. A well stoned pothead will normally sit down close to music with a stupid grin on their face.

Speed or “P” is another story altogether.
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September 1, 2011 3:29pm
Elaycee

“Cannabis and Cocaine are completely different substances. They should never be categorised together.”

Wrong! Both cannabis and cocaine are illegal. Liquor isn’t.

But feel free to continue – the facts can’t be allowed to get in the way of a good story.
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September 1, 2011 3:30pm
Scott Chris

FE Smith – He was morally culpable IMO according to the brief description given in the article, which details his premeditation and intent:

“Miller hid in the victim’s car while she was at work, kidnapping and binding her with masking tape and wrapping tape. He drove her to an isolated location, and then attempted to gas her in the car.”

My guess, as one ignorant of these matters, is that the sentence reflects the quantity of harm done to society. To me, this is irrelevant, as the punitive and deterrence components of the sentence should be the same in this case, as a successful premeditated murder. Effectively, he was rewarded for his incompetence.
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September 1, 2011 3:30pm
Weihana

“I would not think that knowing what puha or watercress look like or that the ability to catch a fish trap a possum or cook rice are rare in this society”

I think you might be surprised. Although I’m sure most people know how to cook rice. Plenty of people have never caught a fish or trapped a possum, nor can recognize puha or watercress.

“Benefits are not to provide for “wants” like a car or fridges or washing machines cell phones etc They are for you to have food and shelter .That lots misdirect their spending is not society fault it is their own fault.”

If a person wants to participate in modern society they do usually require things like a car, a fridge and a washing machine. A person wearing rags and who smells like a caveman is not going to be hired by anyone thus condemning this person to a lifetime of such hunting and gathering.

Also, where a person is able to reside is not necessarily in close proximity to where they are required to work, hence the need for cars.

Moreover, I do not find it acceptable for children to live in shacks while their parents hunt for puha and watercress and where they have to bath in rivers and wear rags. If this is your idea of how the poor should live then move to India and enjoy waking up to the smell of homeless people taking a dump on your front doorstep.
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September 1, 2011 3:34pm
redeye

Wrong! Both cannabis and cocaine are illegal. Liquor isn’t.

I did say ‘should’ never.
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September 1, 2011 3:35pm
Elaycee

@redeye – Fair cop. 🙂
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September 1, 2011 3:36pm
mikenmild

I don’t think we should attempt to say that one recreational substance is more dangerous than another and therefore should be banned. Clearly, we don’t do that at the moment. Harm from substances can vary markedly from person to person and depending on situations.

Surely the only rational approach is to legalise all substances and concentrate effort on regulation that minimises harm?
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September 1, 2011 3:37pm
kowtow

nasska 247
“Cannabis is not a narcotic…..”.
Oxford dict.,.Cannabis….a preparation of parts of this used as an intoxicant or hallucinogen.
Oxford narcotic….2 (of a drug) affecting the mind.

Cannabis is a narcotic drug.
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September 1, 2011 3:37pm
Weihana

kowtow “Now if you want go ahead and promote drug use but fuck off and leave alcohol out of this. They’re not the same thing.”

Alcohol is in fact much more harmful than Cannabis and many other prohibited drugs (LSD, Ecstasy etc.).
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September 1, 2011 3:38pm
nasska

Elaycee

…”Wrong! Both cannabis and cocaine are illegal. Liquor isn’t.”…

True, but this is an accident of history & is not necessarily indicative of the proportionate harm.
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September 1, 2011 3:39pm
Weihana

# Ryan Sproull (4,506) Says:
September 1st, 2011 at 2:52 pm

The really pressing issue for the cannabis liberty against the current nanny-statism against it is that of accurate testing for the purposes of DUI legislation. I don’t know if they’re addressing it, but that’s where any research funding they have should be going.

————————

I fail to see why that’s a real issue. If the driver fails a practical sobriety test combined with a positive test for marijuana and a good-faith belief by an officer that the driver appears stoned, then that for me is sufficient evidence to convict someone of driving under the influence of marijuana. There is no reason why this non-issue should prevent liberalisation.
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September 1, 2011 3:41pm
Elaycee

Weihana – says: “Alcohol is in fact much more harmful than Cannabis and many other prohibited drugs (LSD, Ecstasy etc.).”

LSD? Ecstasy? Wow – that’s a big call. Any proof?

But this is interesting – a US Study that says that drinking in moderation is actually GOOD for you. Enjoy.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/AlcoholAndHealth.html
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September 1, 2011 3:47pm
Griff

F E Smith

It would be unusual if your clients smoked pot and did not drink
Other than arrest for possession or dealing most would be up on violent or criminal behavior fueled by alcohol.

as to

“Drug harms in the UK: a multi-criteria decision analysis”, by David Nutt, Leslie King and Lawrence Phillips, on behalf of the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs. The Lancet.

Unfortunately I do not have access to the lancet its pay for view.
There are also many more papers to back this piece of research if you care to search them out.
All non biased reports that I have seen have similar conclusions.
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September 1, 2011 3:49pm
Falafulu Fisi

Pete George, what is a decent society? What’s your definition? Is it redistribution of wealth? How about feeding people who can’t take care of themselves? Or how about a young person offering his/her seat to an elderly person who got on the bus when there is no seats available?

A society can still be exploitative of others (as consenting adults – ie, no coercion of anyone is applied) and being selfish (with their own wealth) and still be decent.

The decent you’re talking about is ,that you want to regulate the society for things which don’t violate rights of others, which is really authoritarian. A bar owner who chooses to let smokers smoke in his/her bar is none of other non-smokers or your ( politicians’/wowsers out there’s) business to legislate the owner not to allow smoking. Don’t tell me that’s decent. The bar-owner owns the bar, not arseholes in Parliament or misguided citizens like you. The decision of what he should do with his bar is his own alone.
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September 1, 2011 3:51pm
nasska

kowtow

The definition you are following is one used by law enforcement agencies…..by this definition all ‘recreational’ drugs are classed first as narcotics & then by their subclass eg Heroin Class A, Marijuana Class C.

Since you seem to be concerned with the possibility that drug use is harmful to the user or society the medical definition is probably more appropriate. ie 1) Marijuana has hallucinogenic & psychedelic properties & 2) Narcotics, eg morphine, heroin & codeine are opioids with sleep inducing properties. The latter are habit forming the former are not.
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September 1, 2011 3:55pm
Scott Chris

Both alcohol and cannabis are harmful if used excessively. Some people such as myself cannot drink or smoke, as my tendency to overindulge causes social dysfunction and harm. But why should my weakness deprive a more moderate person from an occasional dalliance?

Prohibition is expensive and ineffective, as well as socially prescriptive and legally inconsistent. If all drugs were to be legalized and the resources currently consumed in upholding foolish law diverted to attempt to promote socially responsible recreational behaviour, society as a whole would undoubtedly benefit.
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September 1, 2011 3:55pm
mikenmild

And we’d have a lot more space in prisons for real criminals…
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September 1, 2011 3:56pm
Ryan Sproull

LSD? Ecstasy? Wow – that’s a big call. Any proof?

Alcohol’s certainly more harmful than Ecstasy, most especially when you look at domestic violence, sexual assault and road accidents.

LSD’s hard to say. Physically not harmful at all. Psychologically it’s hard to say. Threat to others while tripping – driving, causing accidents, etc – almost certainly.
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September 1, 2011 4:05pm
Griff

Elaycee
Ryan Sproull

Classifications of harm of social drugs and alcohol (for kowtow)
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
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September 1, 2011 4:10pm
nasska

Scott Chris

I’m another who ended up with the alcohol using me….I managed to quit a little over ten years ago & I’m never going back…I hope. The point is that what I can or can’t handle is no one’s business other than my own & I have no more right than my neighbour to dictate what someone else may be able to enjoy responsibly.

Prohibition be it for drugs or alcohol doesn’t work.
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September 1, 2011 4:14pm
Sonny Blount

How many of NZs 500+ suicides per year are cannabis users?
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September 1, 2011 4:19pm
Pete George

A bar owner who chooses to let smokers smoke in his/her bar is none of other non-smokers or your ( politicians’/wowsers out there’s) business to legislate the owner not to allow smoking. Don’t tell me that’s decent. The bar-owner owns the bar, not arseholes in Parliament or misguided citizens like you.

How many barowners have you checked with to see if they’d like to go back to smoking in bars?

The decision of what he should do with his bar is his own alone.

No it’s not. He can’t burn it down and claim insurance. He can’t get kids drink and hire them out to dirty old men. If he wants to run a bar in our society he has to conform to our rules. And I think most people would support some rules.

You didn’t answer before – where in the world does your Utopia exists successfully?
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September 1, 2011 4:20pm
Ryan Sproull

Classifications of harm of social drugs and alcohol (for kowtow)
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm

Very interesting, Griff. Thanks for that.

Odd that LSD and mushrooms have no score for harm to others. I always tend to think “what would happen if someone on this drug got behind a wheel?”
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September 1, 2011 4:23pm
Griff

nasska Scott Chris

If we are having an ……. anonymous meeting Can I join in
I messed with home bake and speed etc in the eighties . I saw the damage it causes to those involved and totally left all associations with Hard drugs behind me. Drinking got me in lots of trouble as a youth. now days I have the odd wine or joint both do no harm if used responsibly.

Man takes drugs or drugs take the man?
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September 1, 2011 4:30pm
RightNow

“Man takes drugs or drugs take the man?”
Yeah, and I don’t like the drugs but the drugs like me.
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September 1, 2011 4:33pm
Falafulu Fisi

PG said…
If he wants to run a bar in our society he has to conform to our rules.

Who makes the rules? I don’t make rules for you and you don’t make rules for me. Politicians make rules that people who elected them, didn’t agree with. Are you gonna still argue for OUR RULES.

You’ve been debating on the net about a political party of your own, but really, you’re a true socialist who is confused and mistaken to be a rightwinger.

What happened to society over a hundred years ago when it wasn’t heavily regulated? Is it more decent today compared to those days back then? If not, then why are you advocating for more regulations? Can we regulate being fat? If not then why not?
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September 1, 2011 4:33pm
Longknives

“Alcohol is in fact much more harmful than Cannabis and many other prohibited drugs (LSD, Ecstasy etc.).”

Utter fucking bollocks.
Talk to anyone who works in the Mental Health Sector about the effects of Cannibis on the human brain. Jesus I get sick of the Pro- Cannabis NORML brigade claiming their ‘Sacred Herb’ is the miracle drug that will save the World…

I’m a drinker, I love a good whiskey-But I know it is a drug and as such isn’t healthy so I don’t drink a bottle every day.
NORML type Cannabis users on the other hand tend to smoke weed all day every day…having being brainwashed that the ‘Sacred Herb’ heals all ills and cures cancer. Good luck with that fellas let me know how it works out for you…
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September 1, 2011 4:39pm
Scott Chris

Nasska and Griff –

God* grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

*whatever your higher power is

My name is Scott Chris and I’m an alcoholic.

My experience of euphoric drugs, such as LSD and Ecstasy is that they are very dangerous, simply because the experience is so consuming and enjoyable, and hence psychologically very addictive. Alcohol and pot are very blunt instruments by comparison, but just as easy to abuse. I suspect that as a result of their relative potency, class A and B drugs are far more likely to induce psychosis in vulnerable minds. I spent two years hooked on BZP party pills, which had an effect similar to amphetamines, and at one stage my perception of reality was dangerously altered and my behaviour eccentric.

The point I’d like to make is, prohibition didn’t affect the availability of drugs to me, but nurtured a disrespect for the law which was counterproductive for me and for society. In the end I pulled myself out of the hole, but would have benefited from earlier rehabilitative intervention, which would have been easier to identify had I not been compelled to hide my shame.
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September 1, 2011 4:41pm
Ryan Sproull

I’m a drinker, I love a good whiskey-But I know it is a drug and as such isn’t healthy so I don’t drink a bottle every day.
NORML type Cannabis users on the other hand tend to smoke weed all day every day…having being brainwashed that the ‘Sacred Herb’ heals all ills and cures cancer. Good luck with that fellas let me know how it works out for you…

Eating sugar all day every day will destroy you too. That’s not an argument against legalisation; that’s an argument against overindulgence.
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September 1, 2011 4:41pm
bereal

Tripewryter 10.57 a cringeworthy explanation. A big effort with no point.
Would you expect the Womans Weekly for eg to publish their contract in each issue ?
Of course the point you are trying to make is that you once tried to submit something
to a Fairfax publication and now have a copy of their contract. Well done. Good girl.
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September 1, 2011 4:41pm
mikenmild

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that cannabis cannot be harmful. All of these psychoactive substances can be harmful. The issue is how to best address likely harm. Prohibiting some substances while endorsing others is a pretty illogical approach and one doomed to failure.
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September 1, 2011 4:43pm
Pete George

Falafulu Fisi – you still haven’t told me where your Utopia (where everyone does as they please without harming anyone else or encroaching on anyone else’s freedom) works.

You’ve been hanging out with Redbaiter too much, you’re parroting his “if you disagree with me you’re a socialist”.
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September 1, 2011 4:43pm
nasska

Griff

There’s not a lot of harm done as long as one gets one’s shit together before irreversibly damaging their own health or hurting/killing another. All part of life’s experiences & looking back I enjoyed some bloody good times.

Now I can reminisce while conveniently forgetting the years of waking up disorientated, broke & hungover.

Longknives

They’ll still do it whether it is illegal or not. Point is if the money & effort put into criminalising drugs was given to the Mental Health professionals society would probably expect a better outcome.
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September 1, 2011 4:46pm
Weihana

Elaycee (1,108) Says:
September 1st, 2011 at 3:47 pm

Weihana – says: “Alcohol is in fact much more harmful than Cannabis and many other prohibited drugs (LSD, Ecstasy etc.).”

LSD? Ecstasy? Wow – that’s a big call. Any proof?

————————

Yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6474053.stm
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
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September 1, 2011 4:47pm
Griff

Longknives

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/alcohol_injury_summary.pdf

This study found the proportion of injury cases with alcohol involvement
ranged from 6% to 45% (a combined proportion for all countries was
20.4%). This is slightly higher than the 10-18% found in many other
international studies. Sites in Argentina, Belarus, New Zealand and South
Africa reported higher proportions of alcohol-related injury (25%, 29%,
36% and 45%, respectively).
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September 1, 2011 4:48pm
nasska

Scott Chris

I must be the ultimate atheist…even when things were really bad I couldn’t recognise the ‘higher power’. Still, somehow we made it. The important thing is staying there!
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September 1, 2011 4:54pm
F E Smith

Griff:

“It would be unusual if your clients smoked pot and did not drink. Other than arrest for possession or dealing most would be up on violent or criminal behavior fueled by alcohol.”

Your first sentence in that is true. The next not so much, as I don’t view violence as the only indicator of harm. Drug use is a very large part of the large number of property offences, in my view.

You also seem to forget methamphetamine in your views; that can have very severe violence as a result of consumption.

Nasska:

“Do you not think that much of the ill effects of cannabis you witness might actually be due to the use of some other drug? ”

No, a lot of them are often one drug people, or one type of drug people. The cannabis users don’t seem to cross-pollinate with a lot of other drugs. I wonder if cost is an issue with that. The effects of cannabis are also not so often directly criminal behaviour, as we see with alcohol, but more of a causative of the situation that leads to criminal behaviour.

Scott Chris:

I disagree with you on the moral issue re culpability, mainly because his victim did not actually die. While I agree that the pre-meditation has a high level of culpability, success would have made it another order of magnitude worse, IMO. Hence I am happy to differentiate on sentence.

Redeye:

In my view, and as a generality, criminal = loser, hence I deal with criminals, not “criminals and losers”.
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September 1, 2011 4:55pm
Longknives

I honestly couldn’t care less whether Cannabis is legal or illegal, it doesn’t bother me. Just don’t try and feed me that absolutely laughable ‘Cannabis is good for you’ / ‘Alcohol is evil’ line that Pro Cannabis activists relentlessly bleat…
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September 1, 2011 5:06pm
leftyliberal

@Elaycee: I got the wrong end of the stick in that case – you have my apologies.
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September 1, 2011 5:11pm
Weihana

Ryan,

“LSD’s hard to say. Physically not harmful at all. Psychologically it’s hard to say. Threat to others while tripping – driving, causing accidents, etc – almost certainly.”

LSD can be dangerous to a small minority of people who are predisposed to mental illness. It is reasonably safe for everyone else if an appropriate dosage is taken. Dosage is hard to predict given that this drug is sourced on the black market but I think it is more predictable than you might expect.

While it produces hallucinations I have found people on the drug to be in relative control of themselves, particularly if you compare users to people intoxicated with alcohol. But again, depends on dosage.

Important things to remember is that it is generally not addictive, it does not appear to cause significant long term damage aside from those predisposed to mental illness, and it does not appear to cause people to be harmful towards others such as inciting domestic violence and interfering with employment and everyday commitments that people must fulfill. I think it deserves to be rated as less harmful than both alcohol and cannabis.
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September 1, 2011 5:11pm
Scott Chris

Nasska – couple of ideas for “higher power”

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books—-a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. (Albert Einstein)
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September 1, 2011 5:11pm
Elaycee

C’mon Weihana – an opinion piece in the Economist can hardly rate as a “proof” to support your claim that LSD / Ecstasy is less harmful than alcohol.

But your second piece is interesting: One panellist (of the group assembled by Professor Nutt) highlighted the fact that 52 people per year die from alcohol whilst 10 deaths a year are linked to ecstasy. But as ecstasy is taken by ‘young people’ (the panellists used that term rather than being more accurate) so there could actually be a higher percentage of young people affected by illegal drugs than with alcohol.

My point is that the reports you have linked to are subjective. But this fact isn’t – alcohol in moderation is actually GOOD for you. Illegal drugs are NOT good for you – that’s why they are…. illegal!
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September 1, 2011 5:20pm
redeye

Longknives you should try some non alcoholic relaxants. You ‘ll live longer and probably wont be so inclined to comment on something you couldn’t care less about.

F E Smith. I don’t disagree with your criminal = loser stance. Could I ask do you need to be caught/convicted to be a criminal? Or just partake in the action?
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September 1, 2011 5:21pm
nasska

Scott Chris

The inability of the human mind to comprehend concepts such as infinity or eternity is the foundation for most beliefs in a higher being. This has been used by many religious tyrants to establish a power base eg Christianity, Islam. To live without a belief in a higher being only requires one to accept that the human mind is not a perfect organ & not to invent an answer to what cannot be understood.

As such I have no beef with people who believe in a deity….they are merely following what they have been brainwashed into. I save my contempt for the hierarchies of the churches who by playing on the weaknesses of their followers attain riches & power.
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September 1, 2011 5:25pm
Falafulu Fisi

Pete George, you’re really confused aren’t you? That is because, you don’t have a political philosophy to base your arguments on. What is your definition of harm? Do you mean rights violations or simply mean that smoking dope is something not nice therefore it is harmful to the person doing it? If you smoke dope, what harm does it do to me? Nothing. If I smoke dope, then what harm does it do to you? Again, nothing really. You confused harm to mean violations of others’ rights. Sorry, that’s not rights violation at all. You do harm to yourself if you smoke dope. Certainly by you choosing to smoke dope, doesn’t harm anyone in the society apart from yourself?
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September 1, 2011 5:32pm
Weihana

Scott Chris,

“My experience of euphoric drugs, such as LSD and Ecstasy is that they are very dangerous, simply because the experience is so consuming and enjoyable, and hence psychologically very addictive.”

I disagree. LSD has a very low potential for dependence. The drug just doesn’t affect the mind in the same way that other drugs, like cannabis and alcohol, affect the brain. It’s not what I would call a “pleasure” drug, it’s more of an “experience” and one that is not necessarily enjoyable depending on the user’s state of mind.

Ecstasy I agree has more potential for addiction but not very high in my view. It is used as a party drug for many and does not often become a drug taken everyday. While it is very pleasurable I think the delay in onset of the drug mitigates its addiction potential whereas drugs like heroin, methamphetamine, alcohol etc have a very quick onset of their effects. I think the quick onset is very significant in forming habitual behaviour.
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September 1, 2011 5:38pm
F E Smith

Redeye,

great question, there was a loooong argument on KB a year or so ago about that point, involving myself and another person in the legal profession (although not necessarily a lawyer).

The short answer is both. You are not guilty of a crime, and therefore not a criminal, until you have been convicted of the offence by a Court of law. However, I am very happy to argue that a person who commits a murder, for example, and does not have an justification argument, is, prima facie, a criminal. They may not be a criminal in the eyes of the law, but they are in fact a criminal.

Does that make sense?
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September 1, 2011 5:42pm
bereal

Of course Weihana is correct to state that ectasy and lsd are less harmfull than alcohol.
Take New Zealand for example, how many people die pa due to lsd ? none. Ectasy, one person
died due to excess water consumption attributed to E
There is no such thing as addiction to lsd.
There is no such thing as addiction to ectasy.
You cant die as a result of OD on lsd.
You cant die as a result of OD on ectasy. No case yet in NZ at least.
Compare that to the results of excess alcohol consumption.
The most dangerous drug on the streets in NZ is crystal meth. (P)
We dont have crack or heroin generaly available on the street here so thats not an issue.
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September 1, 2011 5:45pm
Griff

Elaycee Longknives
This is not an opinion piece by pot smokers or the economist it is a up to date 2010 reputable study By experts in the field

from http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
Drug harms in the UK: a multi-criteria decision analysis”, by David Nutt, Leslie King and Lawrence Phillips, on behalf of the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs. THE LANCET , Volume 376, Issue 9752, Pages 1558 – 1565, 6 November 2010

Alcohol is the most harmful drug in Britain, scoring 72 out of a possible 100, far more damaging than heroin (55) or crack cocaine (54). It is the most harmful to others by a wide margin, and is ranked fourth behind heroin, crack, and methamphetamine (crystal meth) for harm to the individual. The authors point out that the model’s weightings, though based on judgment, were analysed and found to be stable as large changes would be needed to change the overall rankings.
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September 1, 2011 5:49pm
Scott Chris

nasska -“The inability of the human mind to comprehend concepts such as infinity or eternity is the foundation for most beliefs in a higher being.”

I agree. Undoubtedly that is the reason for why I have chosen to accept the possibility that a higher power may exist, and it satisfies a need (possibly conditioned) to surrender somehow in order to learn my true worth. The tendency for a lot of religions is to anthropomorphise God, hence Voltaire’s famous quip:

“In the beginning, God created man in his own image. Man reciprocated”

I also come at it from this angle. As far as I can see, there should be nothing. No God, no universe, *no thing*. And yet the universe has magically sneezed itself into existence and contains immeasurable complexity and self awareness. This is what I choose to call God. Impersonal, unfathomable, magnificent.
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September 1, 2011 5:56pm
Weihana

# Elaycee (1,109) Says:
September 1st, 2011 at 5:20 pm

C’mon Weihana – an opinion piece in the Economist can hardly rate as a “proof” to support your claim that LSD / Ecstasy is less harmful than alcohol.

But your second piece is interesting: One panellist (of the group assembled by Professor Nutt) highlighted the fact that 52 people per year die from alcohol whilst 10 deaths a year are linked to ecstasy. But as ecstasy is taken by ‘young people’ (the panellists used that term rather than being more accurate) so there could actually be a higher percentage of young people affected by illegal drugs than with alcohol.

My point is that the reports you have linked to are subjective. But this fact isn’t – alcohol in moderation is actually GOOD for you. Illegal drugs are NOT good for you – that’s why they are…. illegal!

————————————–

I do not think it is fair to dismiss these reports as “subjective”. The ratings are based on objective criteria, assessed by qualified experts and peer reviewed in a respected medical journal.

I’m not sure exactly what your argument is re ecstasy related deaths. I very much doubt that young people tend to use illegal drugs more than they use alcohol, therefore the lower rate of death associated with ecstasy may still be higher in proportion to frequency of use. But this is not the only criteria by which harm should be measured and I believe that is what justifies the lower rating of overall harm.

With regards to alcohol in moderation being good for you, I acknowledge that there is evidence to support this contention. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is still a harmful drug overall. Indeed other drugs can be good for you as well. Cannabis is very good medication for pain relief. LSD has shown huge potential for psychotherapy. But these benefits do not take away their potential for harm.
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September 1, 2011 5:58pm
Weihana

Longknives (385) Says:
September 1st, 2011 at 4:39 pm

“Alcohol is in fact much more harmful than Cannabis and many other prohibited drugs (LSD, Ecstasy etc.).”

Utter fucking bollocks.

———————————————

No, not bollocks. A sound conclusion based on peer-reviewed science.
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September 1, 2011 6:05pm
F E Smith

Bereal,

your statements may be generally true, but they leave out important alternatives, for example:

“how many people die pa due to lsd ? none. Ectasy, one person
died due to excess water consumption attributed to E”

Death is perhaps rare, but hospitalisation is not so rare. It isn’t uncommon to have an E user through Emergency Departments in NZ. However, the use of E in NZ isn’t as common as overseas, where they do have a much higher death rate.

“There is no such thing as addiction to lsd.”

Perhaps not, but there can be excessive use. There can also be some really stupid (and potentially deadly) things done on LSD.

“There is no such thing as addiction to ectasy.”

Again, perhaps not, but there can be serious short and long term health problems caused by its use, as well as dependency.

“You cant die as a result of OD on lsd.”

But to concentrate on simple overdoses is to ignore the fact that LSD use can cause harm.

“You cant die as a result of OD on ectasy. No case yet in NZ at least.”

Except that you don’t need an overdose for consumption to have fatal consequences.

“Compare that to the results of excess alcohol consumption.”

Again, it is all a matter of percentages, isn’t it?

“The most dangerous drug on the streets in NZ is crystal meth. (P)”

Crystal meth is another street name, the correct name is methamphetamine. But, in my view, this is true.

“We dont have crack or heroin generaly available on the street here so thats not an issue.”

Not Crack, but we do have the relatively common use of Homebake, which is used as a heroin substitute and is quite prevalent in the drug community in NZ. The effects Homebake are so similar to heroin that to deny there is an issue there is to willfully miss the point.
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September 1, 2011 6:06pm
F E Smith

Griff,

As I have said earlier in this thread, what are the percentages? What percentage of alcohol users suffer or cause problems related to alcohol, compared to the percentage of users who suffer or cause problems due to heroin (or homebake) etc?. I would put money on the probability being that a very large majority of heroin users suffer health and/or social problems as a result of their heroin use compared to alcohol users.

But what you are really arguing is that alcohol should be criminalised, aren’t you? That would seem the logical result of your argument. Or are you simply saying that because alcohol causes more harm overall, therefore other substances, which cause less harm as a result of GDP, or whatever, should ipso facto be legalised?

Anyway, just because the Lancet prints it does not make it correct.
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September 1, 2011 6:12pm

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