General Debate 16 February 2012

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cha

That one of our ‘leaders’ would have the nous to make the same suggestion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/guatemalan-leader-the-only-way-to-beat-gangs-is-to-legalise-drugs-6950300.html
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February 16, 2012 9:33pm
Luc Hansen

thanks for breaking the monotony of unfunny jokes, Cha. Here’s my contribution:

Appendix A: From Republicans for Environmental Protection

http://www.rep.org/opinions/weblog/weblog10-10-11.html

As a climate change activist, climatologist Jim Hansen takes his activism a step beyond where most would be willing to go. He gets himself arrested.

Most recently, Hansen, who has directed the NASA Goddard Institute of Space Studies for nearly three decades, was cuffed in front of the White House at a protest against mountaintop removal coal mining.

Some write off Hansen as a flame-throwing radical. That’s a mistake. And not only because mountaintop removal is an abomination that flies in the face of just about everything conservatives are supposed to stand for – thrift, stewardship, and property rights for starters.

Hansen describes himself as a moderate conservative and is registered to vote as an independent. More importantly, he has been shopping around a framework for climate legislation that conservative elected officials might find interesting if they find themselves in a problem-solving mood.

Hansen’s proposal is simple, far simpler than the 1,400-plus pages of the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill that passed the House in 2009 but will die when the 111th Congress closes up for good later this year.

Hansen’s proposal makes use of market principles, by prodding the market to tell the truth about the costs of carbon-based energy through prices. It would not impose mandates on consumers or businesses, create new government agencies, or add a penny to Uncle Sam’s coffers.

Hansen calls his approach “fee and dividend.”

A gradually rising fee would be imposed on carbon-based energy sources at the points where they enter the economy – at mine mouths or ports of entry, for example.

Carbon-based energy imposes costs – on the environment, public health, and national security – and those costs would be made more obvious in the marketplace through the fees.

Energy prices likely would go up.

How much and for which uses of energy would depend largely on market dynamics. Revenues collected from carbon fees would be returned 100 percent to the public through dividends. Hansen estimates that a $115-per-ton carbon fee would add a dollar to the per-gallon price of gasoline but would raise enough revenues to pay every adult American as much as $3,000 per year.

How would Hansen’s plan affect individuals? That would depend on how they exercise their right to make free choices.

Those who wish to use carbon-based energy with abandon would be free to do so – knowing up front that they would pay the environmental and other costs of using lots of carbon-based energy rather than shift those costs onto their fellow citizens.

Those who acknowledge the market signal and change their purchasing decisions could avoid some or most of the higher prices. Depending on the choices they make and the size of their dividends, they might even come out ahead financially.

Businesses would seek out more opportunities to improve their energy efficiency. Other businesses would sell products and services that enable them to do so.

Low-carbon energy sources would be more competitive with high-carbon sources.

The idea behind the bill could be described in a 1-minute elevator speech.

As legislation, Hansen’s approach could fit onto a few pages. The bill could be read and understood by anyone – voters and lawmakers alike willing to put in a few minutes of time.

Transparent. Market-based. Does not enlarge government. Leaves energy decisions to individual choices. Takes a better-safe-than-sorry approach to throttling back oil dependence and keeping heat-trapping gases out of the atmosphere.

Sounds like a conservative climate plan.
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February 16, 2012 9:47pm
nasska

cha

I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting. The USA are so completely anal about the issue that we would probably end up invaded ourselves…..if we avoided that fate every trade agreement we have with the USA & her puppets would be torn up within hours.

Overnight we could rid ourselves of gangs & a lot of social misery but as long as we have populist, poll driven politics the idea will never see the light of day.
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February 16, 2012 9:47pm
cha

Little wonder that the Greeks are pissed off about the austerity measures that they’re having to accept.

Even as the crisis was nearing the flashpoint, banks were searching for ways to help Greece forestall the day of reckoning. In early November — three months before Athens became the epicenter of global financial anxiety — a team from Goldman Sachs arrived in the ancient city with a very modern proposition for a government struggling to pay its bills, according to two people who were briefed on the meeting.

The bankers, led by Goldman’s president, Gary D. Cohn, held out a financing instrument that would have pushed debt from Greece’s health care system far into the future, much as when strapped homeowners take out second mortgages to pay off their credit cards.

It had worked before. In 2001, just after Greece was admitted to Europe’s monetary union, Goldman helped the government quietly borrow billions, people familiar with the transaction said. That deal, hidden from public view because it was treated as a currency trade rather than a loan, helped Athens to meet Europe’s deficit rules while continuing to spend beyond its means.

Athens did not pursue the latest Goldman proposal, but with Greece groaning under the weight of its debts and with its richer neighbors vowing to come to its aid, the deals over the last decade are raising questions about Wall Street’s role in the world’s latest financial drama.

February, 2010
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February 16, 2012 10:11pm
Griff

“Sometimes the truth is arrived at by adding all the little lies together and deducting them from the totality of what is known.”
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February 16, 2012 10:20pm
RightNow

Griff, you’ve repeated several times today that the Heartland Institute is trying to “Dissuade teachers from teaching science”

That document was faked –
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/15/notes-on-the-fake-heartland-document/#more-56736

Truth doesn’t matter much to you huh? It’s all about who you believe, not what you believe.
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February 16, 2012 11:35pm
Put it away

Jeez Griff, you believed the *Guardian*? Oh dear.
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February 17, 2012 12:06am
Griff

RightNow
So finally you try to debate the issue.

Faked I guess heartland is going to open up its email server for us all to have a closer look like they made Anglia university do. Then there will be nine independent inquirers all finding that one out of nine documents are fake. TUI

This has not been deigned Heartland Institute on watts funding

http://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/%281-15-2012%29%202012%20Fundraising%20Plan.pdf
“Anthony Watts proposes to create a new Web site devoted to accessing the new temperature data
from NOAA’s web site and converting them into easy-to-understand graphs that can be easily
found and understood by weathermen and the general interested public. Watts has deep expertise
in Web site design generally and is well-known and highly regarded by weathermen and
meteorologists everywhere. The new site will be promoted heavily at WattsUpwithThat.com.
Heartland has agreed to help Anthony raise $88,000 for the project in 2011. The AnonymousDonor has already pledged $44,000”

For fucks sake you use a guy who is half funded by heartlands “Anonymous Donor” That is not his story on watts up is it

Rightnow it surprises me that a seemingly rational man supports this shit. AGW is not even a particular interest to me
Reading all the dienialist posts on climate change showed me were the disinformation campaign was coming from. Big oil was a guess based on known contributors to heartland. Now the truth is out its mostly one man and his personal vendetta against science

There are more organizations involved Cato or someone else will pick up the slack.
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February 17, 2012 12:42am
Griff

Put it away (2,317) Says:

yeh shoulda used BBC or the new york times

Mind you heartland seems pissed
“We believe their actions constitute civil and possibly criminal offenses for which we plan to pursue charges and collect payment for damages, including damages to our reputation. We ask them in particular to immediately remove these documents and all statements about them from the blogs, Web sites, and publications, and to publish retractions.”

Closed down the new stories coming out also meant some have been toned down and censored

Much of the material, though, it admits is genuine, including the list of donors – indeed, it’s apologized to the donors whose identities were revealed

Still there is way enough to hang the bastards

This is fake its not from heartland it was slipped in by the same evil bastard who stole the documents That we are not allowed to mention
“Principals and teachers are heavily biased toward the alarmist perspective. To counter this we are considering launching an effort to develop alternative materials for K-12 classrooms. We are pursuing a proposal from Dr. David Wojick to produce a global warming curriculum for K-12 schools. Dr. Wojick is a consultant with the Office of Scientific and Technical Information at the U.S. Department of Energy in the area of information and communication science. His effort will focus on providing curriculum that shows that the topic of climate change is controversial and uncertain- two key points that are effective at dissuading teachers from teaching science.”

Who would write such a thing about the lovely people at heart land 😈
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February 17, 2012 1:09am
bhudson

Trevor Mallard – the gift keeps on giving:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6434238/Trevor-Mallard-I-m-no-ticket-scalper

Mr Mallard said that, if Ticketek wanted to revoke his account, he would rely on friends to buy his tickets in future.

Or in other words, Trevor doesn’t think that he is obliged to adhere to Ticketek’s terms and conditions…
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February 17, 2012 7:45am