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November 9, 2012 3:00pm by David Farrar

A Tremain cartoon

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RRM

Another true believer in the Marxist fallacy that DPB mothers supposedly live a life of idle luxury at my expense.

Strange – it’s almost exclusively comfortable, professional people who seem to think like this!

Vomit.
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November 9, 2012 3:10pm
Pete George

I don’t know that anyone thinks they live in idle luxury, and most want to get the hell out of their dependant situation, but proportionally there could be as many lifestyle solos as Maori thugs and employee exploiting bosses.
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November 9, 2012 3:15pm
Redbaiter

I wouldn’t worry about it being at your expense RRM. Its the productive sector that pays for all of these excesses.

A sector that is dwindling more every day as those riding in the cart grow to be much greater in number than those who are pulling it.

The whole ridiculous artifice will soon collapse.

But that is the whole idea of course, and that is a truth the left keep smoke screening, and that the so called right are too gutless to call them on.
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November 9, 2012 3:19pm
Sam Buchanan

What amazes me is the number of financially comfortable people who will tell you their kids are wonderful and enrich their lives, yet are absolutely certain that poor people only have kids to get handouts.
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November 9, 2012 3:20pm
Pete George

What amazes me is the number of financially comfortable people who will tell you that handing out more of other people’s money to some other people will solve all problems.
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November 9, 2012 3:25pm
Brad

What an amazingly accurate likeness of Paula Bennett that the cartoonist has drawn. Its uncanny
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November 9, 2012 3:29pm
RRM

Well philosophical debates about solving all problems are a lot of fun!

But meanwhile the old woman’s kids are very real, and they need to eat something…
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November 9, 2012 3:30pm
backster

The proof that many a true word is spoken in jest.
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November 9, 2012 3:33pm
Kea

The woman should have thought of that before she got knocked up RRM. It is not societies problem, it is her problem.

The last thing this world needs is another hungry mouth to feed. There should not be incentives for having kids, but penalties.
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November 9, 2012 3:34pm
RightNow

The real question is would the woman have had so many children if she hadn’t expected someone else to pay for them?
Because many parents plan their families according to their own ability to support them, and to such parents it becomes particularly galling that they have to support the large families of others with no personal responsibility.
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November 9, 2012 3:43pm
Pete George

But meanwhile the old woman’s kids are very real, and they need to eat something…

Yes. The state helps her there. So should the father/s, shouldn’t he/they?

Money will be tight but relative to all of history she should do ok and so will her kids – most if not all will survive into adulthood far better than preceding generations.

I saw something on TV last night that hadn’t ocurred to me before. An Aussie soldier went off to fight in WWI. His wife was left at home in Perth with the kids and bugger all money. And no welfare at all. She had to find a way to survive. Many many women had to do that, in many countries.

And another example seen recently, a man was sent to prison early last century. There was no state support for his family. His wife went to live with her brother’s family, and the kids were split and sent to grandparents and other family.

Today things are tough financially for many solos, but nowhere near as tough as it would have been not long ago. And most of the mothers and fathers have the primary responsibility:
– for the situation they are in
– for caring for their kids.
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November 9, 2012 3:47pm
RRM

Yes Kea she should have thought about that.

But unfortunately we are forced to consider the real world, where plenty like her do not think about that.

So there are kids around us whose parents cannot provide for them. Either we let them starve and say “that’s fine because they’re not our problem”, or else we as “society” kinda by default end up having to make it our problem…

My view is that any civilised society needs to be the village that has helped to raise children who need help, and and care for the sick who need help, since at least the end of prehistory.

That doesn’t mean I am wedded to the idea of a DPB as being the ONLY way that this could be done in a society like ours, but I don’t see a lot of sensible alternatives being put forward. Maybe you have one…?
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November 9, 2012 3:49pm
Grendel

Tell you what RRM, you are right, regardless of the indolence or poor choices of the mother (and presumably absent sperm donor), the kids are hungry.

So lets cut the crap and have the kids looked after. overhaul the foster care system so that the foster parents are not in a situation where the social workers actively work against them and treat them worse than they do the criminal/neglectful parents.

As an ardent ‘right winger’ i would happily pay more tax or see tax diverted to make sure that people have the resources to foster kids and that these kids are actually looked after. that way the ‘parent’ gets no money for hanging on to kids they dont care about and the kids actually get fed, washed, clothed, talked to and taken to school.

when strangers look after your kids better than you do, something is wrong and its not with society, its with crappy parents.

i am not sure if there are many people trying to get pregnant just for the money, but there are a lot of women who put no effort into not getting pregnant, becuase they know they will get paid, and you can ignore 4 kids as easily as you can ignore 3.
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November 9, 2012 3:50pm
RRM

Fair enough Pete but “no worse than conditions at the dawn of the 20th century” is a pretty low bar to aim for.

Grendel – exactly! I’d vote for you. 😉
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November 9, 2012 3:51pm
Redbaiter

Today things are tough financially for many solos, but nowhere near as tough as it would have been not long ago. And most of the mothers and fathers have the primary responsibility:
– for the situation they are in
– for caring for their kids.

Its soon going to get a lot worse for these poor people.

And that is because of the ideas promoted by retards like you. Those ideas that have steadily chipped away at concepts such as self reliance and independence, and replaced them with ideas such as welfarism, where other taxpayers, regardless of how short they might be of cash, are forced to provide money to a huge and widely abused slush fund kept in place by corrupt politicians and ignorant losers who abuse the process of democracy by using government primarily as

Private charities were always the best and only way to deal with this.
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November 9, 2012 3:55pm
James Stephenson

yet are absolutely certain that poor people only have kids to get handouts.

Got another explanation for the regular occurrence of unloved toddlers allowed to be bashed and abused by the next feral “partner” their mother shacks up with?
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November 9, 2012 3:56pm
publicwatchdog

Got a similar cartoon about long-term ‘corporate welfare’ beneficiaries?

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption / anti- ‘corporate welfare’ campaigner’.
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November 9, 2012 3:59pm
Pete George

My view is that any civilised society needs to be the village…

I think that’s a key word, village. We need to get a village mentality back, somehow.

Taxes, benefits, bloody Wellington (parliament) – they are all too remote and unseen to connect closely with.

I think a lot of people would front up with a bit of money to help, if they through it would go directly to those who really deserve and not into the black whole of the consolidated fund.

There are a lot of community initiatives, service groups (Lions and Rotary) and social services around Dunedin, apart from the main charities there are suburban groups, garden establishment groups etc etc.

If more people got involved, especially as locally as possible, a lot of littles could add up to a lot.

I’ve floated the idea of a local social trust (need to try and progress that). I contribute regularly to a charity that helps people in real poverty (overseas). I contribute regularly to one local initiative (mobile child counselling). I would consider contributing more, out of each pay, to a local community fund, if I could see it bypassing as much bureaucracy as possible and minimising waste on system users and abusers.

(I finished typing this before I saw RB’s last post).
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November 9, 2012 3:59pm
iMP

Is this a cartoon about Catholics?
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November 9, 2012 4:01pm
Griff

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/Children/nzs-children.aspx
Māori children and to a lesser extent Pacific Islands children are more likely than children from other ethnic groups to live with only one parent. Some 41 percent of Māori children lived in sole-parent families in 1996. This compares with 29 percent of Pacific Islands children, 17 percent of European children and 12 percent of Asian children.
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November 9, 2012 4:04pm
Manolo

But meanwhile the old woman’s kids are very real, and they need to eat something…

The lament of another do-gooder, who should start by asking that of the biological fathers.
Oh no, that’s too cold-hearted for this socialist paradise.
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November 9, 2012 4:04pm
RightNow

Perhaps they could eat the biological fathers iff they’re not paying their fair share.
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November 9, 2012 4:08pm
Redbaiter

Correction-

“where other taxpayers, regardless of how short they might be of cash, are forced to provide money to a huge and widely abused slush fund kept in place by corrupt politicians and ignorant loser voters who abuse the process of democracy by using government primarily as an insurance scheme that pays out on stupidity.”
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November 9, 2012 4:11pm
RRM

If you’re saying the current system’s not very good Redbaiter, I agree with you.

So what’s your suggestion for fixing this?
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November 9, 2012 4:15pm
Bevan

But meanwhile the old woman’s kids are very real, and they need to eat something…

Awesome, first though lets see her weekly budget before we hand over more of our hard earned cash.
How much goes on smokes, booze or the pokies? Does she have Sky TV? How much is her Internet plan? Or her mobile phone plan for that matter? What is the total she owes on her credit cards? And which bank was dumb enough to give her one?!? And finally how much does she owe to dodgy Sth Akl finance companies?
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November 9, 2012 4:25pm
Bob R

***So what’s your suggestion for fixing this?***

@ RRM,

As I have noted previously, many people in this situation suffer from low future time orientation. They are incapable of using contraception regularly. My modest suggestion is to make contraception shots a condition of eligibility for welfare payments. They would be part of the reciprocal obligation entailed in receiving money from another person/organisation.

http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/contraception/contraception_depo.html
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November 9, 2012 4:39pm
Kea

As I have noted previously, many people in this situation suffer from low future time orientation.

Does ” low future time orientation” actually mean anything? I doubt it.
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November 9, 2012 4:54pm
RF

Pure and simple.. A baby production line. Close to Henry Ford who only produced black cars.
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November 9, 2012 5:58pm
duggledog

Grendel ‘i am not sure if there are many people trying to get pregnant just for the money,’

LMAO Ha ha fuck me dude you have just given your location as a leafy suburb. That’s exactly what happens, in many many places around NZ, for many many years

Loads of girls in high schools (used to) time their pregnancies to happen the year after they finish at school. Ask somebody, anybody in WINZ in any of the classic areas; Far North, East Coast etc etc.

You should get out more often
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November 9, 2012 7:29pm
heathcote

Look who popped her head out of the lake -‘Water-woman’!

Care to explain your ‘corporate welfare beneficiaries’? Are they from the sector that creates employment and wealth in this country, and pays the taxes you want to get your sticky fingers on? Spend the rest of your life trying to kill the goose that lays the golden egg if you wish, but stop inflicting your warped views on the rest of us.
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November 9, 2012 8:08pm
Rightandleft

I don’t think all beneficiaries are living the high life, but handing them still more government money isn’t necessarily the answer. Personally I know of a family where the mum has already had 3 kids by 2 dads, the second of which is still with her. They live on a benefit in near squalor. They have a car but no money to put fuel in it unless her parents help. They had no food to feed the kids one weekend so parents came to the rescue again buying lots of meat and dairy only to arrive and discover they have no refrigerator to put the food in. They have no heat and use an LPG bbq inside the lounge to heat the house. They have no beds, only mattresses on the floor. They DO have a 55 inch brand new TV and they both drink and smoke. He doesn’t work at all and is trying to get on invalid benefit because of seizures, though they don’t stop him hunting, driving, or doing anything other than working. He is late 20s and never had a real job. She works part-time at near minimum wage, didn’t finish high school.

So here’s the rub, she’s pregnant with number 4 and it was no accident. They’ve been trying for over a year. She has 3 boys now and wants a girl. Child Services has already been onto them about maltreatment of the 3 they have but none have been removed. Not abuse mind you, just not well-fed, poorly clothed. So they’re having another kid and of course they do so because they just naturally rely on the govt doling out more money for them to subsist on. Are they living the high life? Of course not. But give them more money and all they’ll do is drink and smoke more, have another kid, and mistreat it too.

There has to be a safety net of course and we can’t punish the kids for the parents’ mistakes, but the current system doesn’t seem to be working either.
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November 9, 2012 8:41pm
dave_c_

What a load of mamby pamby PC cow-towers we have in this country – What we need is someone (or a party) with balls – Make it impossible for those who deliberately feed from the public trough of welfare, to continue to do so without some prid-pro-quo of ethics and constraint.
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November 9, 2012 8:55pm
liarbors a joke

Rightandleft (224) Says:
November 9th, 2012 at 8:41 pm

Sterilization for these sort after the first baby…its the only answer. I hate paying for scum losers to breed.
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November 9, 2012 8:57pm
nasska

Rightandleft

Not long ago we thrashed the subject of WINZ paying the beneficiary’s rent & power direct & loading the remainder onto a debit card which couldn’t be used to purchase alcohol, cigarettes or Lotto.

Would sure solve a few problems for the couple you describe.
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November 9, 2012 9:00pm
Johnboy

I never realised that SHOE was newspeak for a State House Occupancy Emplacement till now! 🙂
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November 9, 2012 9:01pm
liarbors a joke

Key could show some leadership on the issue and instruct Paula Benefit to implement said idea Nasska…tui ad…” hellooooo JK..helloooooo!
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November 9, 2012 9:07pm
Longknives

“A sector that is dwindling more every day as those riding in the cart grow to be much greater in number than those who are pulling it. ”

Well said.
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November 9, 2012 9:37pm
Longknives

As someone who worked at WINZ for a very short time after University I can confirm there are literally thousands of walking baby factories out there who are simply laughing all the way to the bank! At the time I worked two jobs (bartending at nights) and still couldn’t match the net income of these feral,unwashed professional bludgers….
And as for the state of the children…that’s another story- lets just say New Zealand is going to be a very troubled place in ten years time…
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November 9, 2012 9:41pm
the conservative

That says it all; the parasite people the left is propagating and pushing; the so-called victims that need our help; the people that can’t make it on their own as the self-reliant and responsible are so unjust; that somehow the world owes them a living; that somehow others are responsible for their sad and deluded existence.
Should I crawl up and shoot myself for being aware of the falsehoods progressives are propagating? NO! The world, apart from leftist dullards, is aware of their communist agenda.
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November 9, 2012 9:43pm
mikenmild

A succinct explanation of the importance of concentrating on children rather than what we hate about their parents:
http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/economy/the-poverty-trap/
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November 10, 2012 7:03am
hemihua

Mises had it right:

“Unemployment doles can have no other effect than the perpetuation of unemployment”
“Assistance granted to the unemployed does not dispose of unemployment. It makes it easier for the unemployed to remain idle”
“All almsgiving inevitably tends to pauperize the recipient”
“It is not capitalism which is responsible for the evils of mass unemployment, but the policy which paralyses its working”

My opinion is that all this welfare is what has really destroyed the family unit – once upon a time these people would have been supported by friends and family. Now ‘society’ – to whom the recipient is anonymous – is expected to pick up the tab. Why would family support family when the government (or everyone else but them) will do it for them? One could expect there to be a correlation between the size of welfare provided and support provided by friends and family. To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

Penny – agree with you regarding corporate welfare. But remember just as the ‘lazy bludgers’ and ‘poor’ are not one and the same, nor is ‘crony capitalism’ and ‘captalism’. There are those who are wealthy because they are providing goods and services that society values (and are free to purchase or reject, unlike state based solutions) as opposed to those who gain wealth through corruption. Food for thought next time you’re campaigning against ‘the rich’ as if they are a homogenous group of greedy corrupt old white men.
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November 10, 2012 1:22pm
mikenmild

“all this welfare is what has really destroyed the family unit – once upon a time these people would have been supported by friends and family.”
The phrase ‘once upon a time’ is generically limited to fairy tales. Luckily Ludwig von Mises’ work fits within that genre quite comfortably.
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November 10, 2012 7:56pm
hemihua

A fairy tale? The results look pretty real to me:
– High unemployment
– High debt
– Ever growing reliance on welfare / state

Lets just hope Mises theories around debt are ‘fairy tales’ eh. They’re seeming pretty real to the rest of the world – why do you think we’re in recession?
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November 10, 2012 9:26pm

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