General Debate 26 May 2013

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Keeping Stock

First? At this hour of the morning? Where is everybody?
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May 26, 2013 8:23am
kowtow

Appears Muslim……….again.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330749/French-anti-terror-soldier-throat-slashed-jihab-wearing-maniac-North-African-origin-patrol-Paris.html
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May 26, 2013 8:30am
Megatron

“The Green Party will bid in a tender for oil and gas exploration to try to protect New Zealand waters from a Gulf of Mexico-like oil spill disaster. Applications will be evaluated, not on who is the highest bidder, but based on a number of criteria, including the applicants’ corporate standing, technical and financial capability, risk management practices, operating experience and proposed work programme.”
Hey Clint, do we have any corporate standing?
Hey Clint do we have any technical and financial capability?
Hey Clint risk management practices?
Hey Clint do we have any operating experience ?
……what a bunch of muppets?
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May 26, 2013 8:31am
Keeping Stock

Hey Clint; why do you keep suggesting these stupid publicity stunts that make us look like even bigger pillocks than we already are?
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May 26, 2013 8:37am
Mobile Michael

I was in the air over Caroline Bay. Just seen Jenny Shipley at Christchurch airport, it’s been 14 years since she was Prime Minister! Back to Wellington soon.
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May 26, 2013 8:42am
Yvette

The Green Party will bid in a tender for oil and gas exploration to try to protect New Zealand waters from a Gulf of Mexico-like oil spill disaster.

Will any ‘call for tenders’ be for oil and gas exploration rather than NOT to explore, so does any proposed Green application not consist of a straight out lie, open to legal action?
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May 26, 2013 8:48am
laworder

Some notes on bail;

I was talking to a Police Officer yesterday about this and he told me that the Police do not routinely oppose bail. The reason is that the form they need to fill out in order to oppose bail is several pages in length and takes over a couple of hours to fill out correctly. What this means is that if the Police DO oppose bail, it is because they have very good reasons to do so, reasons that justify a lot of extra work and hassle.

I had the impression, reinforced by discussions on here, that it was a simple matter for the Police to register their opposition to bail, and that they routinely did so out of habit or because it was just the usual process to follow. This is not so.

Therefore I now take my original position on bail, that if both the Police and victim and/or family oppose bail, then it should not be granted.

Regards
Peter J
see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz
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May 26, 2013 8:51am
Judith

Keeping Stock (8,813) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 8:23 am
First? At this hour of the morning? Where is everybody?
————————————

Church

I’m back early cos I don’t have as many sins as everyone else to apologise for. 🙂
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May 26, 2013 8:58am
All_on_Red

Congratulations to NZer Mitch Evans. Came third in both GP2 races at Monaco overnight. Fabulous achievement for the young man and kudos to his sponsors Mark Webber, Giltraps and the Mad Butcher for stumping up with the not inconsiderable amount of money to support him.
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May 26, 2013 8:58am
UglyTruth

2 FBI Agents Involved in Dzhokhar Tsarnaev’s Arrest Have Been Killed During a Training Exercise

According to a statement from the FBI, two FBI special agents were killed last Friday during a training exercise off the coast of Virginia Beach, Virginia. Special Agent Christopher Lorek and Special Agent Stephen Shaw were members of the FBI’s elite Hostage Rescue Team, part of the Critical Incident Response Group based at Quantico, Virginia. The cause of the incident is under review, the FBI said.

Prison Planet reports that, last month, the team was involved in the arrest of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, a suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings.

Yesterday, I reported that a man, who knew Boston bombings suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev, was shot dead by an FBI agent Tuesday night in Orlando.

People surrounding the Tsarnaev brothers are dying at a faster than rate those who were somehow connected to the JFK assassination.

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2013/05/2-fbi-agents-involved-in-dzhokhar.html
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May 26, 2013 8:58am
Dennis Horne

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/410839/parents-in-norway-jailed-for-incest

OSLO—A Norwegian court Thursday sentenced a couple to 17 years in prison for violence, rape and incestuous relations with their three sons, calling it the country’s worst sexual abuse case.

The article doesn’t tell you they are Somalians. That must be irrelevant. Don’t upset the data sets.
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May 26, 2013 9:01am
Kea

I’m back early cos I don’t have as many sins as everyone else to apologise for.

That is why I like Christian girls, they need sins to forgive and only jump out of bed early on Sundays to bother God 😉
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May 26, 2013 9:03am
Judith

laworder (206) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 8:51 am
——————————-

I agree that if the police oppose bail, and can provide very good reasons for that, then it should be granted.

However, I don’t agree with the families etc unless they have some quantitative evidence (which would have been provided to the police anyway). The fact is that the police are making a rationally based decision. The others are making an emotionally based decision, which may not necessarily be based on the actual truth, but rather just their interpretation of it.

The fact is, the police collect all the evidence and if there is a good reason why the victim/family etc oppose bail, they will put forward that argument anyway.
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May 26, 2013 9:03am
Reid

Peter J

Peter, my position is that the person who grants the bail should be made to live right next door to the person deemed most at risk of re-offending and it goes down the scale so the person next at most risk of reoffending who was granted bail gets to live right next door to the closest relative of the person who granted that person bail and so on and so forth until, eventually, one of the family members of the person who granted the bail in the first place gets attacked by one of the poor innocent darlings and then lo, for ever after, the person who granted the bail to all-comers suddenly for no apparent reason never ever grants bail to dangerous people ever again.

And this is repeated up and down the country and politicians aren’t excluded, either, since its them who sets the bail laws, starting with the Minister for Justice.

That’s my policy. What do you think?
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May 26, 2013 9:04am
Dennis Horne

@Judith. I think you are funny, Judith. I gave your box a tick. Hope it doesn’t take too much blood… 🙂
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May 26, 2013 9:05am
Kea

Dennis Horne, I would not allow a Somalian in the country.

Somalia has been fractured and broken for so long you can hardly call it a country. The social norms and general behaviour is totally incompatible with our society. Sure they may not all be like that, but the risk is too great.

One thing people forget is that many refugees bring with them the very same values and ideas that they are seeking to escape.
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May 26, 2013 9:08am
Tauhei Notts

I was surprised to see on Russian Tv last night that there had been a big protest about Monsanto in New Zealand.
Has anybody here hheard of that protest?
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May 26, 2013 9:10am
All_on_Red

“That is why I like Christian girls, they need sins to forgive and only jump out of bed early on Sundays to bother God 😉 ”

Its also a good way to get rid of them so you can get on with your day.
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May 26, 2013 9:11am
Judith

Dennis Horne (1,188) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 9:01 am
—————————————
Good Morning Dennis 🙂

I really think you will be struggling to prove your argument that this type of severe sexual offending is race or ethnicity based.

There are similar cases, Joseph Fritzl from Austria, for example, in which the perpetrators are very ‘European’.
Pedophillia and incest are not a discriminatory behaviours based on colour.
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May 26, 2013 9:12am
bhudson

It was reported that ” hundreds” had protested across NZ. Based on previous instances, they will have reported “hundreds” because they couldn’t spell “handful”
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May 26, 2013 9:13am
Judith

All_on_Red (358) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 9:11 am

Its also a good way to get rid of them so you can get on with your day.
———————-

Unless they are good wee girls like me and don’t have much to confess 😛 Barely worth leaving the house!
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May 26, 2013 9:14am
Kea

I really think you will be struggling to prove your argument that this type of severe sexual offending is race or ethnicity based.

It is nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It is the cultural norms of the place they come from.

Our media seldom reports on the horrific brutality that occurs daily in Africa. It is simply beyond belief. To report it would be racist, of course. I will not sour every ones Sunday with examples… even I can not spend much time on reading about it, as I find it too upsetting.
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May 26, 2013 9:27am
Dennis Horne

@Judith. You miss the point. The point is the casual reader would assume they were Norwegians. As intended.

I have a sense of deja vu. Never mind. Yep, the people from Somalia make great immigrants. Just like the Dalmatians, Poles, Dutch. Don’t look at the data, look out the window. (Must dash, got work to do.)
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May 26, 2013 9:28am
Judith

Dennis Horne (1,190) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 9:28 am

You are right, I did miss that point – yes it was a good one – I would have thought the same.
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May 26, 2013 9:34am
OneTrack

“Never mind. Yep, the people from Somalia make great immigrants”

Yes, they add to the “diversity” don’t they? And that, according to the progressives, is the most important thing.

“The article doesn’t tell you they are Somalians. That must be irrelevant. Don’t upset the data sets.”

Of course. That sort of information might scare th horses. Control the progressive message – we will tell the prols what to think.
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May 26, 2013 9:38am
Judith

Kea (4,584) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 9:27 am

————————————-

I agree with you. Cultural norms that find some sorts of behaviour ‘normal’ to one group, but disgusting to another, are problematic when one cultural group immerses with another in a different geographical situation.

The violence in Africa is horrible, and extremely upsetting to read about – for us. For those that live it, it is almost a way of life.

I usually get shot down in flames for saying this, but Africa would have been one country better off left to its own devices, than having the ‘good missionaries’ interfere (historically). To me it appears a culture/s that is in turmoil. Unable to live to their old values, and not evolved sufficiently to live to global cultural values.
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May 26, 2013 9:41am
All_on_Red

“Unless they are good wee girls like me and don’t have much to confess ”

Hmm, more like its bad girls who are good is what I am after..
Just kidding-v happily cohabitating with gorgeous partner and two beautiful sons .
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May 26, 2013 9:41am
hj

“I can’t say for sure, Minister, but one or two of our people in Beijing – and one or two of us here in Wellington, for that matter – are of the view that the Chinese government may be sending us a little message.”

“Message? What on earth do you mean? What sort of message!”

“Well, you know the Chinese, Minister. Their messages can be very subtle – oblique even.”

“They’re not the only ones, mate! So, come on, that’s enough beating about the bush, what message are the Chinese trying to send – and to whom?”

“We think there may be a number of intended recipients, Minister. First and foremost there’s the Government. And, after the Government, we suspect there’s the whole primary production sector: dairying, meat and wool, kiwifruit – the whole shebang. And there may be a number of individuals. The Prime Minister, obviously, but also the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Minister for Trade Negotiations, and yourself, of course.”
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/borderline-call-with-apologies-to-yes.html
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May 26, 2013 9:44am
laworder

Judith wrote

I agree that if the police oppose bail, and can provide very good reasons for that, then it should be granted.

Presume you meant to write that bail should not be granted. Easy to make tpyos 🙂

However, I don’t agree with the families etc unless they have some quantitative evidence (which would have been provided to the police anyway). The fact is that the police are making a rationally based decision. The others are making an emotionally based decision, which may not necessarily be based on the actual truth, but rather just their interpretation of it.

The fact is, the police collect all the evidence and if there is a good reason why the victim/family etc oppose bail, they will put forward that argument anyway

Perhaps, but the family/ victim may have long term and indepth knowledge / experience of the offenders behaviour that the Police dont. That is why I think that if BOTH the family AND the Police oppose bail it should not be granted, i.e. if it is only one OR the other that is opposed then the judge has the discretion to grant it

Regards
Peter J
see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz
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May 26, 2013 9:51am
Kea

I usually get shot down in flames for saying this, but Africa would have been one country better off left to its own devices, than having the ‘good missionaries’ interfere (historically). To me it appears a culture/s that is in turmoil. Unable to live to their old values, and not evolved sufficiently to live to global cultural values.

Yes I totally agree.

Change needs to be organic and come from within. No continent in the world has had as much foreign “help” as Africa. They had modern infrastructure installed and all the systems set up for them by various nations. Entire modern cities built by occupying nations who eventually handed it all back to them. They have huge natural resources. Africa is not “poor” it is rich. But look at the state of the place ! 🙁
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May 26, 2013 9:52am
Kea

laworder, your position presupposes guilt. If the evidence is strong and the risk great, then bail can be denied under the existing system. I think your tending towards guilty by accusation.
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May 26, 2013 9:59am
Judith

laworder (207) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 9:51 am
—————————-

Yes it should have been not granted.

My point was that the family, and victim/s, if they have any information that is pertinent, should be giving that to the police, who are able to make their case against bail accordingly, and more to the point, investigate the issues ( some victims do tend to exaggerate on certain issues and in certain types of crimes)

Whilst I appreciate that in just about every case the victim and families would have a stance on this, one that usually means they do not support bail, the facts are often very different to what they may believe.

I believe it is up to the police to sort out the issue of bail, including speaking to the victim/s and family etc.

Something that would be worth your while arguing for is less prominence on family, and allow ‘friends’ to be included. This is particularly pertinent as many people are actually closer to friends than family in some instances. It is the friends who can provide a more realistic picture of the victim’s life in a lot of cases – and yet, frequently the friends are excluded from the process.
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May 26, 2013 10:00am
Judith

Kea (4,586) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 9:59 am

———————————-

Excellent point Kea, and one that is the basis of our law. A person is innocent until PROVEN guilty (BRD).

Bail can always be granted with certain restrictions if there is deemed to be certain risks involved.
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May 26, 2013 10:04am
laworder

Kea wrote

If the evidence is strong and the risk great, then bail can be denied under the existing system.

But the trouble is, that is not happening under the existing system. If it was, there would be no issue, no controversy and we wouldnt be debating this. The existing system is not working properly, people have died as a result, that’s why SST and others are proposing changes.

Judith wrote

Something that would be worth your while arguing for is less prominence on family, and allow ‘friends’ to be included. This is particularly pertinent as many people are actually closer to friends than family in some instances. It is the friends who can provide a more realistic picture of the victim’s life in a lot of cases – and yet, frequently the friends are excluded from the process.

That’s a good point, and I suspect that you are right in many cases. However the difficulty is that it is far harder to ascertain/ prove who is a friend than who is family. Friend is a status that has no official documentation to confirm it, so I can see the possibility of issues arising from this

Regards
Peter J
see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz
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May 26, 2013 10:24am
wally

Great typo in the Herald this morning:

“Officers then arrested two more offenders as they tried to flee in a taxi with a firearm in their possession.

Police have asked for any whiteness who saw the incident or the vehicle leaving the scene to contact Counties Manukau police.”
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May 26, 2013 10:24am
Kea

But the trouble is, that is not happening under the existing system. If it was, there would be no issue, no controversy and we wouldnt be debating this. The existing system is not working properly, people have died as a result, that’s why SST and others are proposing changes.

laworder, granting bail involves an element of risk. Sometimes the accused offends while on bail and it sometimes it goes dramatically wrong. You are concentrating on high profile failures and not looking at the bigger picture. The fact it goes wrong – sometimes- is not an indication of a broken system.

The price of 100% successes is too high. It would involve overturning the fundamentals of our justice system and imposing a police state where people are imprisoned without trial and assumed guilty by accusation. One of the crimes most likely to raise your ire would be rape. However there are many false rape complaints lodged and later withdrawn by the complainant. Imagine you were the one accused or picked up by the police on suspicion. I wonder how you would view it when locked up in a jail cell as a rapist for something you did not do ?

It is a balancing act and we do not always get it right. But I think our system is ok and we have folk like you keeping an eye on things.
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May 26, 2013 10:44am
Kea

wally LOL 🙂
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May 26, 2013 10:45am
Viking2

Judith (2,561) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 9:14 am

All_on_Red (358) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 9:11 am

Its also a good way to get rid of them so you can get on with your day.
———————-

Unless they are good wee girls like me and don’t have much to confess 😛 Barely worth leaving the house!

=======================

I was bought up knowing there were good girls (Judith) and nice girls.
Good girls were never any fun.

What more can we say. 😮 😆
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May 26, 2013 10:48am
Kea

Viking2, good girls are way better at being naughty and are the best in bed too. Their naughty sisters tend to be more cynical and guarded. I have done extensive field work on this hypothesis.
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May 26, 2013 10:54am
UglyTruth

Appears Muslim……….again.

Not commenting about the Paris incident yet, but recently appearing to be Muslim:

Boston bombing, Jeff Bauman reportedly gets his legs blown off and there’s no evidence of blood on him. The suspects’ uncle used to live at the home of A CIA operative involved in radicalization of Muslims.

Then a London soldier reportedly gets his head cut off and there’s there’s no evidence of blood on him. “Let me comfort him” a woman reportedly pleads. In the video a little old lady with a shopping trundler is so traumatized by the events that she walks past the alleged murderer who is holding a butcher’s cleaver and a knife, there are red smudges on his hands.

And there’s the video of Nick Berg being beheaded. Berg was already dead when he was beheaded, if his heart was still beating there would have been blood everywhere.
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May 26, 2013 11:00am
Judith

laworder (208) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 10:24 am
—————————–

Your sentiments, are as usual honourable, however, they are not always practical, and tend to rely very heavily on the negative emotional side of crime to play to peoples emotional rather than practical side.

Yes, there have been people charged with crime, that have been allowed out on bail, and then re-offended. However, these are by far the minority. For those victims and family that have been involved it is difficult to understand. However, the law must adopt the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty – IF the police have been unable to put forward a decent case regarding the need for bail to be refused, then you are suggesting that the concerns of an emotionally charged family/victim should be adhered to, instead.

That argument is ridiculous. Fraught with problems and so open to abuse/corruption/error that it is difficult to know where to begin.

Whilst the criteria for granting bail may need review – the system already allows for the police to make any inquiries necessary to support their argument for bail refusal, including putting forward the family’s position. Re-inventing the wheel is stupid and costly – the Judge, is suitably qualified to listen to, and make whatever decision is required – they may sometimes get it wrong – but in the large majority get it right. We cannot have a system where any member of the public, victim or family can just demand bail refusal and it not be granted accordingly.
.
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May 26, 2013 11:01am
Redbaiter

For fuck’s sake, Kea, can you make GD much more pathetic than it is already with your endless boasting of how much you know about “girls”? You vain shallow self absorbed bore.
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May 26, 2013 11:02am
Chuck Bird

@laworder

Sorry, Peter I must disagree with you. Let us look at rape. There is a high percentage of rape allegations where the alleged offender is found not guilty and even a substantial number where the alleged offender is totally innocence.

If a person defends the charge of rape they could be in jail a very long time before being found not guilty.

Everything is a balance. That means the risk of the alleged offender harming the victim or someone else has to be balanced against the possibility of jailing an innocent person for a very long time.

You or someone else may say a person should be tried say within a month. That may be good in an ideal world but it is not going to happen anytime soon.
We have to deal with the world how it is.

It is obvious that the bail laws need improving but suggestions need to be thought out not just emotive. With respect yours does not appear to be.
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May 26, 2013 11:13am
Kea

Redbaiter, bad hangover this morning ?

You are not your usual happy positive self. 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
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May 26, 2013 11:15am
backster

The bail system operated far more efficiently when offenders were required to sign or deposit Bail Bonds and provide approved sureties who would likewise sign or deposit a bond which they would forfeit if their was any breach or non-appearance by the offender. These days it is little more than a promise by people who have never kept any.
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May 26, 2013 11:17am
laworder

Judith wrote
IF the police have been unable to put forward a decent case regarding the need for bail to be refused, then you are suggesting that the concerns of an emotionally charged family/victim should be adhered to, instead.

I think you (and maybe Kea) have misunderstood what I have proposed. I am not suggesting bail be denied just on the family’s say so, OR just on the basis of Police opposition, but BOTH.

That is, if the Police oppose bail, AND the family/ victim ALSO oppose bail, THEN it is not granted, if just one OR the other oppose then it is left to judicial discretion as at present.

Regards
Peter J
see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz
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May 26, 2013 11:19am
Kea

Red, maybe you can entertain us with another sermon about the dangers of the progressives and the collapse of civilisation ( for a change ) since girls are not your thing ?
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May 26, 2013 11:19am
Kea

laworder, so the bill of rights can be displaced on the basis of emotion ? I think not.

If the evidence supports bail being denied, then fine. But it should never be denied on subjective emotional pleas. Police are likely to oppose bail simply because they do not like someone, but unless they have evidence, their view can be dismissed also.

Let the facts speak, not the emotion of those who are understandably upset.
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May 26, 2013 11:24am
Kea

backster , yes but many people before the Courts do not have that money. We would end up with different outcomes depending on a persons wealth. I am not comfortable with that.
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May 26, 2013 11:26am
laworder

Chuck, I tried to write a long response to your post which then vanished into the bowels of WordPress

Basically I would like some examples of rape cases of the type you describe where the Police did oppose bail, as this is not something they do lightly due to the amount of work needed

Regards
Peter J
see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz
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May 26, 2013 11:27am
Redbaiter

13 year old girl (Collingwood supporter) “escorted” from ground for calling AFL player an “ape”.

What a fucking authoritarian farce.

The Guardians have taken over.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/8717139/Sydney-Swans-Adam-Goodes-racially-abused

(Watch the video)
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May 26, 2013 11:28am
Redbaiter

Huge police presence in Sweden to stop people defending against Islamic rioters because police are doing nothing. Even failing to extinguish burning cars unless it provokes rioters further.

http://www.friatider.se/swedes-take-to-the-streets-to-defend-their-neighborhoods
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May 26, 2013 11:30am
Redbaiter

More abject gutless surrender, as tweeters are arrested for texts insulting to Islam-

Detective Inspector Ed Yaxley of Avon and Somerset Police said: ‘These comments were directed against a section of our community. Comments such as these are completely unacceptable and only cause more harm to our community in Bristol.
‘People should stop and think about what they say on social media before making statements as the consequences could be serious.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330809/Lee-Rigby-death-11-people-UK-arrested-making-racist-anti-religious-comments-online-British-soldiers-death.html#ixzz2ULd6rKuM
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May 26, 2013 11:31am
Judith

laworder (208) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 10:24 am
—————————-

Still do not agree and I did understand you.

The police are more than capable of putting forward the family/victim/s arguments regarding bail. What is more, they are in a position to sort out fact from fiction in such matters, and use objective reasoning, as opposed to highly emotive reasoning.

Victims and family do not usually have the full facts regarding the crime involved, and the necessary information regarding the accused offender, e.g. Previous Convictions and personal information. They are not at this point in the proceedings sufficiently informed to make an objective personal plea. That time comes when sentencing is being considered, after the offender has been found guilty.
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May 26, 2013 11:33am
Redbaiter

While the flag of the Communist Generals flies high over America-

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/img/2013/05/Int/boston_ultima_800-movil.jpg

their factories deliver more fake products to the west-

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/million-doses-of-fake-aspirin-from-china/story-fni0xqlk-1226650694328
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May 26, 2013 11:35am
Reid

Huge police presence in Sweden to stop people defending against Islamic rioters because police are doing nothing. Even failing to extinguish burning cars unless it provokes rioters further.

So how much more evidence do people need before they finally draw the obvious conclusion (duh) that Islamification as practised in the EU is nothing more but a social engineering policy conducted since the 70’s designed specifically to get Christians and Muslims hating each other’s guts.

What else explains the decades and decades of politicians right across the EU completely ignoring the wishes of THEIR OWN ELECTORATES plus actions like those of the Swedish police, here and now, today? (Which actions will only become more and more widespread across the EU.)

It’s just an accidental bunch of stuff that just happened?

Duh.
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May 26, 2013 11:37am
Judith

laworder (210) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 11:27 am
————————————-

I think you need to back up your claims with some evidence.

From my experience the police frequently oppose bail when there are indications and likelihood of further offending, irrefutable evidence of excessive violence, possible harm to either victim or offender and so on.

You are using an argument that the police, rather than do their job of protecting the community, deliberately avoid filling out forms because they are too long – and so put the community at risk unnecessarily.

If that is the case – it is not a law change you need, but rather, a word with the police minister regarding Police policy and the manner in which it is being addressed.
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May 26, 2013 11:39am
thedavincimode

You vain shallow self absorbed bore

Too funny.
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May 26, 2013 11:43am
Redbaiter

Reid- it is not anything near as complicated as you make out. It is simply that the left own the political debate. In fact they own politics, and therefore if there is a change coming, it has to come from outside of the present global political paradigm.

(Glad to see you well again)
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May 26, 2013 11:44am
Chuck Bird

@laworder

Peter, I do not have the resources to do such research. However, I believe the onus on anyone proposing such a radical proposal which to the best of my knowledge does not operate anywhere in the civilized world to really do their research and homework.

I am focused on another issue aligned with SST. That is better training and selection process for judges. We not only have judges that are not all that bright but some who are very much lacking in morals and ethic.

This is the clown I had call Your Honour.

http://www.kiwisfirst.co.nz/index.asp?PageID=2145845343

I put in a complaint to the JCC but the judges version of events were a lot different than what happened.

We need judicial accountability. The JCC is a farce.
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May 26, 2013 11:49am
F E Smith

laworder,

the Police do not routinely oppose bail. The reason is that the form they need to fill out in order to oppose bail is several pages in length and takes over a couple of hours to fill out correctly

You’ve been had, mate. The form is generally no more than 2 pages long and has, down the left hand side, a list of what they need to discuss in order to fill it out correctly. Often much of it is just a recitation of the defendant’s criminal history, plus a few other points that may or may not be relevant.

It is a straightforward form that is easily completed. I could do one in about 15 minutes.

The Police regularly oppose bail, sometimes for genuine reasons and sometimes for specious reasons. The fact is that there is a Bail Act that gives the judges guidance on what they are to look for and that guidance is included on the form, as I have said, down the left hand side.

Have you actually seen one of the forms? If not, why are you actually taking a position on it without that sort of basic knowledge? If you had read some of the drivel on them that I have read then you would not hold your position.

I totally oppose your position. I have seen complainants oppose bail on the flimsiest of reasons, often out of spite against someone they were in dispute with and even for offences that were fine only. I have seen police oppose bail simply because they didn’t like the defendant, not because there was any actual danger to the community.

Conversely, I have seen judges refuse bail even when the Police have not opposed it, because the judge has rightly followed the law and not their own feelings on the matter.

Your position is a kneejerk one that is based, apparently, on low quality and biased information. That is very poor policy making and, in my view, typifies the SST’s approach to their positions.
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May 26, 2013 12:03pm
F E Smith

We not only have judges that are not all that bright but some who are very much lacking in morals and ethic.

That is pretty unfair. Of the couple of hundred judges in the Country, all have a law degree and, generally, 20 to 30 years experience as lawyers before they are elevated to the bench.

I don’t think you will find any that can actually be accurately characterised as ‘not all that bright’. The morals I am less able to comment on, but for most their ethics are exceptional.
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May 26, 2013 12:07pm
Manolo

A taste of their own medicine: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664835
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May 26, 2013 12:07pm
Kea

F E Smith, you nailed it. Which is understandable given your profession.
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May 26, 2013 12:11pm
Fairfacts Media

There seems to be a lack of coverage and commentary about the goings on in Obamamerica.
We have a president and a White house lying and covering up over the Benghazi terror attacks.
We have an IRS that has been targeting conservatives, something now admitted by the White house.
It is now just a matter of what role it and Obama played in it, interesting considering Obama met with the IRS union leader the day before such targeting began.
We have a government spying on the private emails of journalists.
What has happened to what used to be the Land of the Free?
It all seems very Soviet to me, to see a state abusing its citizens in such a way, especially those who oppose it.

As for the 13 year-old girl in Australia, who called the AFL player an ape.
I too see an over reaction. Yes, she was wrong but was such an exposure warranted?
Here we have a great hulk of a beefy man ‘gutted’ by the stupid abuse of a 13 year old girl.
What a precious little petal he must be, what a tender wee flower.
Is he a man or a mouse?
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May 26, 2013 12:20pm
UglyTruth

Of the couple of hundred judges in the Country

What’s with the capitalization?
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May 26, 2013 12:21pm
Fletch

UglyTruth @8:58

Reminds me of how Seal Team 6 who killed Bin Laden all died in a helicopter crash.

President Barack Obama said Saturday that the deaths of Americans in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan are a reminder of the “extraordinary” price the U.S. military is paying in the decade-long Afghan war.

Insurgents shot down a U.S. military helicopter during fighting in eastern Afghanistan, killing 30 Americans, most of them belonging to the same elite unit as the Navy SEALs who killed former Al Qaeda leader Usama bin Laden, U.S. officials said Saturday. It was the deadliest single loss for American forces in the decade-old war against the Taliban.

One current and one former U.S. official said that the dead included 25 Navy SEALs from SEAL Team Six, the unit that carried out the raid in Pakistan in May that killed bin Laden. They were being flown by a crew of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because families are still being notified.

A total number of 38 people died in the crash, killing 7 Afghans and one interpreter.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/08/06/afghan-president-31-americans-killed-in-helicopter-crash/

Apparently, they were sent out without proper backup, and in an old helicopter etc…

Three families of Navy SEAL Team VI special forces servicemen, along with one family of an Army National Guardsman, will appear at a press conference on May 9, 2013, to disclose never before revealed information about how and why their sons along with 26 others died in a fatal helicopter crash in Afghanistan on August 6, 2011, just a few months after the successful raid on the compound of Osama Bin Laden that resulted in the master terrorist’s death.

Accompanying the families of these dead Navy SEAL Team VI special operations servicemen will be retired military experts verifying their accounts of how and why the government is as much responsible for the deaths of their sons as is the Taliban.

The areas of inquiry at the press conference will include but not be limited to:

1.   How President Obama and Vice President Biden, having disclosed on May 4, 2011, that Navy Seal Team VI carried out the successful raid on Bin Laden’s compound resulting in the master terrorist’s death, put a retaliatory target on the backs of the fallen heroes.

2.   How and why high-level military officials sent these Navy SEAL Team VI heroes into battle without special operations aviation and proper air support.

3.   How and why middle-level military brass carries out too many ill-prepared missions to boost their standing with top-level military brass and the Commander-in-Chief in order that they can be promoted.

4.   How the military restricts special operations servicemen and others from engaging in timely return fire when fired upon by the Taliban and other terrorist groups and interests, thus jeopardizing the servicemen’s lives.

5.   How and why the denial of requested pre-assault fire may have contributed to the shoot down of the Navy SEAL Team VI helicopter and the death of these special operations servicemen.

6.   How Afghani forces accompanying the Navy SEAL Team VI servicemen on the helicopter were not properly vetted and how they possibly disclosed classified information to the Taliban about the mission, resulting in the shoot down of the helicopter.

7.   How military brass, while prohibiting any mention of a Judeo-Christian God, invited a Muslim cleric to the funeral for the fallen Navy SEAL Team VI heroes who disparaged in Arabic the memory of these servicemen by damning them as infidels to Allah. A video of the Muslim cleric’s “prayer” will be shown with a certified translation.

http://press.org/events/navy-seal-team-vi-families
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May 26, 2013 12:30pm
Redbaiter

“There seems to be a lack of coverage and commentary about the goings on in Obamamerica.”

The NZ media is owned by the left. They will do all they can to protect the left’s figurehead.

This demonstrates so clearly what a farce the left have made of our democracy.

(Good to see you back Fairfacts.)
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May 26, 2013 12:30pm
Kea

We not only have judges that are not all that bright but some who are very much lacking in morals and ethic.

Chuck Bird, you may benefit from considering that Judges are bound by the law the same as anyone else. They do not get to sit up there doing what ever they like. Often they may make decisions that they personally do not like.

Same thing with sentencing. If they impose an especially harsh sentence it could open up grounds for appeal. They are an instrument of the law, not a primary source of law and general fix-it-up profession.
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May 26, 2013 12:32pm
Kea

UglyTruth (827) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 12:21 pm
Of the couple of hundred judges in the Country

What’s with the capitalization?

You tell us what’s with the capitalization UglyTruth…?
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May 26, 2013 12:34pm
wat dabney

“Apparently, they were sent out without proper backup, and in an old helicopter etc…”

So, not deliberately killed then.
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May 26, 2013 12:36pm
UglyTruth

You tell us what’s with the capitalization UglyTruth…?

An expression of interest by govcorp.
UT

Capitalization represents the total amount of the various securities issued by a corporation.
Black’s 5th
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May 26, 2013 12:48pm
Inky_the_Red

The Greens really piss me off with their distrust of Science. GM is a tool that can help feed moore people cheaper. I think that is a good thing and letting people starve is evil. I accept that with GM there needs to be caution but a blanket ban is insane

I suggest people tell them some truths. Their Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/nzgreenparty?hc_location=stream
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May 26, 2013 12:54pm
Kea

UglyTruth, no it does not. You can not shop around for definitions to create a montage that supports your theory. I often see this with people who question sovereignty. They glean definitions from all over the place, often confusing civil proceedings with criminal.

Your name in capitals is not a corporation. It is simply an administrative convention and nothing more.

Take a break from the conspiracy sites and go read a basic introduction to the legal system. It is not complicated and won’t take you long. The library will have something.
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May 26, 2013 12:55pm
UglyTruth

It is simply an administrative convention and nothing more.

Wrong. In the English language abnormal capitalization can indicate an alternate meaning. For example in the King James Bible, the word LORD represents a proper noun (the tetragrammaton), while the word Lord represents an ordinary noun (meaning master or the one having authority).

Of course in court appearances are made on an oral basis (a name is called), which introduces an element of ambiguity.
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May 26, 2013 1:10pm
Doctor Who

@Ugly Truth. You’re Dan Brown, aren’t you.
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May 26, 2013 1:24pm
UglyTruth

GM is a tool that can help feed moore people cheaper.

GM from MonSatan?

(Reuters) – Monsanto Co is hosting a “Bee Summit.” Bayer AG is breaking ground on a “Bee Care Center.” And Sygenta AG is funding grants for research into the accelerating demise of honeybees in the United States, where the insects pollinate fruits and vegetables that make up roughly a quarter of the American diet.
….

Die-offs of bee populations have accelerated over the last few years to a rate the U.S. government calls unsustainable.
….

Scientists, consumer groups, beekeepers and others blame the devastating rate of bee deaths on the growing use of pesticides sold by agrichemical companies to boost yields of staple crops such as corn. Monsanto, Syngenta, Bayer and other agrichemical companies say other factors such as mites are killing the bees.
…
But environmental scientists say evidence increasingly points to pesticides coating corn seeds as the problem, not mites. In recent years, U.S. corn seed suppliers have offered more corn seed pre-treated with types of neonic insecticides so that as the plant grows it repels harmful pests.

A study published last year by scientists at Purdue University in Indiana found evidence that planting the coated corn generates dust that contains very high levels of the neonics that can move beyond the fields where the seeds are planted. The researchers said they found the poison in the soil as well and in pollen collected by bees as food. The neonics were present on dead bees collected for study.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/20/us-usa-bees-idUSBRE94J0MK20130520
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May 26, 2013 1:25pm
Chuck Bird

@F E Smith (2,545) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 12:07 pm

Does having a law degree guarantee that so one is that bright and logic? I think not judging some of the comments I have seen on this blog for a start. I am not referring to you.

I could also mention Binnie the ninnie who got $400k for a shocking bias report.

I have a feeling that a law degree is not enough to be a lawyer. Perhaps you can tell me is a paper or two in math and stats a prerequisite? Is a paper in psychology a requirement?

I also believe that judges should only cover areas where they have been tested and approved. A judge should not be able to set on civil, matrimonial and criminal cases unless he or she passed a qualification in each.
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May 26, 2013 1:30pm
Kea

Wrong. In the English language abnormal capitalization can indicate an alternate meaning.

Yes it can, but in the case of your name it does not. As I have mentioned previously, you are collecting meanings out of context and applying them where they do not belong.

Monsanto has helped feed millions of people. The anti-science crowd have killed millions. Just look at the death toll from banning DDT and from food shortages caused by bio fuel crops, not to mention millions of hectares of forest destroyed. All our domestic crops are heavily modified and were long before Monsanto came along. Most plants were toxic with large amounts of natural pesticides. Plants evolved chemical defenses as they are unable to run away. We have breed them to be less poisonous, but typically the strongest toxins in our food crops are natural ones.
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May 26, 2013 1:33pm
Chuck Bird

“They do not get to sit up there doing what ever they like.”

What make you say that?

In my case the judge was to fucking lazy to put an important minute/direction in writing and that cost me about $70. I failed to get a second caveat on the property because of that and the property has been sold so an appeal would be pointless.

I have since found out that there is no requirement for for judges to put anteing in writing.

I complained to the JCC as i said. The JCC should be scrapped and complaints should be heard by a panel that includes lay people and if judge gives his or her version of events it should be a swore statement.
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May 26, 2013 1:43pm
UglyTruth

Yes it can, but in the case of your name it does not.

You were wrong about it before, why should anyone think that you know what you are talking about?
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May 26, 2013 1:44pm
Chuck Bird

We need judicial accountability.
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May 26, 2013 1:44pm
Kea

UglyTruth, provide evidence.

You have never proven me wrong on any point. Ever.

No matter how many times you parrot your conspiracy theories they will not suddenly become truth. You are living in a dream world, but that is ok. You will comply with the law just like all the other sheeple. The system will force you to do so. Simple as that 🙂
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May 26, 2013 1:48pm
UglyTruth

You have never proven me wrong on any point. Ever.

You were just proven wrong about capitalization simply being an administrative convention.

K: It is simply an administrative convention and nothing more.
U: Wrong. In the English language abnormal capitalization can indicate an alternate meaning.
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May 26, 2013 2:13pm
Kea

Chuck Bird (3,461) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 1:44 pm
We need judicial accountability.

You want to hold Judges accountable for the wrongs of others. A direction that would undermine Judicial separation and lead to the Judiciary being politicised.
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May 26, 2013 2:17pm
Kea

UglyTruth, yes I heard you the first time. You are still wrong and have provided no evidence.

But moving on….

Why do you disregard the laws made by the democratically elected representatives of the people in favour of the announcements of an 8th century unelected English king, with appeals to the god of a Middle Eastern desert cult ?

If you really value freedom and power to the people, you would prefer the former not the later. You can change the laws we have if you can gather enough support. Our elected representatives are the ones who make law, not god and not some king who lived over 1200 years ago on the other side of the world. This means you can bring about change, if enough people agree with you.

Seems like a pretty good system to me and I am puzzled where you are going with all this ?
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May 26, 2013 2:23pm
Chuck Bird

You want to hold Judges accountable for the wrongs of others. A direction that would undermine Judicial separation and lead to the Judiciary being politicised.

Wrong. I want to hold the judge accountable for not using common sense and having no sense of fair play especially for an unrepresented party. A judge should make ever reasonable effort to make sure both parties hear his directions and at a minimum put his directions in writing.

If a judge cannot be bothered putting in important directions in writing then there should be a requirement for him to do so.
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May 26, 2013 2:32pm
Kea

Chuck Bird, usually what the Judge says is recorded. That is the decision, not what he puts in writing.
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May 26, 2013 2:51pm
Kea

One more thing Chuck Bird… have you ever tried to read a Judges “writing” ? It is considered a black art 🙂
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May 26, 2013 3:08pm
Nostradamus

UglyTruth:

UglyTruth (832) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 11:00 am

Appears Muslim……….again.

Not commenting about the Paris incident yet, but recently appearing to be Muslim:

Boston bombing, Jeff Bauman reportedly gets his legs blown off and there’s no evidence of blood on him. The suspects’ uncle used to live at the home of A CIA operative involved in radicalization of Muslims.

Then a London soldier reportedly gets his head cut off and there’s there’s no evidence of blood on him. “Let me comfort him” a woman reportedly pleads. In the video a little old lady with a shopping trundler is so traumatized by the events that she walks past the alleged murderer who is holding a butcher’s cleaver and a knife, there are red smudges on his hands.

And there’s the video of Nick Berg being beheaded. Berg was already dead when he was beheaded, if his heart was still beating there would have been blood everywhere.

Oh no – it’s a conspiracy! A conspiracy, I tell you!

– Boston bombing: There was no blood on Jeff Bauman. Amazingly, none of the many people at the scene (including paramedics) and none of the hospital staff who treated him noticed this. Or they did, and none of them are telling us the truth. Yes, either way, definitely a conspiracy.

– London: There was no blood on the London soldier. None of the many people at the scene noticed this. Everyone was taken in by the fake red smudges on the ~~alleged~~ murderers’ hands. The gunfight (of sorts) between the murderers and the police was an act, because there was no evidence of any guns! Surely at least one person could tell us that the ~~alleged~~ murderers was using red paint. Yes, they must all be in on the conspiracy, too.

– Nick Berg: No evidence of blood! Those dastardly Americans who closely analysed the video posted on the internet were lying. They said that the video appeared to have been heavily edited (as shown by the date and time stamp), so not all of the footage was included. They were lying. Lying, I tell you! Why are we not being told the truth, er, the Ugly Truth? (Capitalisation intended – what’s with that is a matter for you to decide :))
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May 26, 2013 3:17pm
Chuck Bird

Kea, I know that final decisions are recorded but there is no requirement for directions made at case management or call over hearings to be recorded electronically or in writing. In my case the judge should have realized the importance of have such a direction in writing so it could not be disputed.

I respectfully requested at a call over hearing that settlement not take place until after the main hearing and settlement was meant to take place a few days after. I requested that settlement not be moved forward.

The judge said that the court was to be notified if settlement was to be brought forward. There was some discussion which I had a little difficulty hearing as I was not as the bar as I should have been and the other party’s lawyer had his back to me. I left understanding that the judge had not changed his mind. Both parties should have got that direction in writing.

The property was sold and the judge could not remember what he said.

A simple written direction like that would taken five minutes.
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May 26, 2013 3:45pm
Dennis Horne

@Chuck Bird. Let me get this straight. The judge gave a direction to the lawyer who borrowed money from you that he was to give you notice if the property was going to be sold before a certain date. The property was sold before that date. You can still claim the money he owes but it is more difficult because you no longer have any claim on that property (it has been transferred to another person). I take it the figure is $70,000 not $70.

The lawyer shafted you and the judge cannot remember what he said; nothing was recorded. I can scarcely believe this. A vital and crucial direction was not recorded. Would F E Smith or someone tell me this could happen.

If it can then it would be worth telling people to take a recorder into court with them.
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May 26, 2013 4:37pm
Kea

Chuck Bird, fair enough. Point taken, if it indeed happened that way.

Dennis Horne, I don’t think you are allowed to take a recorder with you.
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May 26, 2013 4:42pm
Dennis Horne

@UgLy TrUtH. WoRk ThIs OuT
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May 26, 2013 4:44pm
Dennis Horne

@Kea. Of course you aren’t. Making a point. You get a Herald photographer ….
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May 26, 2013 4:46pm
Dennis Horne

This might apply:

A nursery school pupil told his teacher he’d found a cat, but it was dead.
‘How do you know that the cat was dead?’ she asked her pupil.
‘Because I pissed in its ear and it didn’t move,’ answered the child innocently.
‘You did WHAT?’ the teacher exclaimed in surprise.
‘You know,’ explained the boy, ‘I leaned over and went ‘Pssst’ and it didn’t move.’
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May 26, 2013 4:49pm
Dennis Horne

@Kea.

When I was six months pregnant with my third child, my three year old came into the room when I was just getting ready to get into the shower.
She said, ‘Mummy, you are getting fat!’
I replied, ‘Yes, honey, remember Mummy has a baby growing in her tummy.’
‘I know,’ she replied, but what’s growing in your bum?’
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May 26, 2013 4:51pm
Kea

Dennis Horne (1,195) Says:
May 26th, 2013 at 4:44 pm
@UgLy TrUtH. WoRk ThIs OuT

You will have him running to his safe-house wearing his best tinfoil hat !
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May 26, 2013 4:59pm
Longknives

For fucks’s sake-

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv/8718898/Doctor-Who-thunderingly-racist

Amongst other things Dr Who is racist because he likes cricket…God help us.
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May 26, 2013 5:11pm
Chuck Bird

@Dennis, I meant $70k. The failed lawyer that ripped me off is to useless to represent himself so he is paying a barrister to tell lies for him.

The judge’s direction was to the barrister.

If I had known what I know now the first thing I would advise an unrepresented litigant to do would be to request to sit at the bar. So you can hear the judge and the lawyer properly. I believe one can request the direction be put in writing.

Below is from a letter I got from the General Manager Higher Courts

To answer your questions on Court procedure:
• The Institute of Judicial Studies provides support and education programmes for Judges. As the Institute operates independently from the Ministry of Justice I cannot comment on the existence of standard procedures relating to unrepresented litigants. More information on the Institute is available on its website: http://www.iis.govt.nz Only barristers have a right to sit at the bar during a hearing, and the position of unrepresented litigants within the Courtroom is entirely at the Judge’s discretion.
• Also at the Judge’s discretion is the decision of whether or not to put directions in writing.
• The Ministry currently does not record case management and call over hearings as a matter of course.
If you wish to continue to pursue your claim, I urge you to seek further legal advice as to what options may be available to you from here.
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May 26, 2013 5:11pm

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