General Debate 20 August 2014

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Dennis Horne

The Universe is violent. Earth is not a safe place. Civilisation is not a natural state. A decent and fair society is not inevitable. There must be rules and discipline. Responsibility.

Poverty may (or not) be the root of all “evil”, but the root of poverty is rooting. Dependants.
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August 20, 2014 8:02am
mjw

I like the rowing eight. Which one is Judith Collins? For that matter, which one is Gerry Brownlee?
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August 20, 2014 8:03am
SPC

Sir Clive Palmer and the business relationship with a Chinese state company (a port and the mining on his farm) are in nuclear melt down – House of Cards, smuggling the role of tusk up the canary coloured togs.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11311376
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August 20, 2014 8:05am
Lance

After those first 3 comments I must ask is it “off your meds day” today?

Just asking
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August 20, 2014 8:08am
Tarquin North

The bloke who invented pop up ads has apologised. I heard this on the radio and immediately thought of David Cunliffe.
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August 20, 2014 8:08am
mjw

Lance – have you not seen the new National ad with the rowers?
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August 20, 2014 8:10am
flipper

Notice that the CminusT newsletter (aka Herald) is panning the fiscal update because the ACC has not dropped employer and employee levy rates, confining cuts to motorists etc.

The Herald forgets that ACC has assets and liabilities. Well, I may be dumb, but I do not see how they can be excluded since any liabilities are underwritten by the Crown. To say that they should have made cuts and accepted a deficit (that is the implied suggestion) is just plain dumb.

And there is also the crap DomPost view that the surplus has gone from (to paraphrase), “not much to bugger all.”
For those that want an independent, detailed view devoid of a left wing cast, try the authors:

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/forecasts/prefu2014
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August 20, 2014 8:11am
Other_Andy

Hamas breaks another 24-hour ceasefire agreed between Israel and Hamas during indirect talks in Cairo the ceasefire by firing three rockets towards the southern Israeli town of Beersheba shortly before 4pm.
But they really want peace.
Really, really, really…
This time..
Honestly.
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August 20, 2014 8:12am
Lance

@mjw
Oh I see… no I haven’t, I will check it out.
Seemed like a very odd comment and I had no context.
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August 20, 2014 8:13am
SPC

John Key’s sort of found himself snookered.

He is moving to the position of conceding that the offence by Collins would have been serious enough to end her career if it had occurred after the final warning (because this is the circumstance) – but not acting because the offence took place earlier.

The sooner he concedes this the sooner he can move on.
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August 20, 2014 8:13am
kowtow

How many are “kiwis” ?

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/islamic-state-50000-fighters-syria-2014819184258421392.html
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August 20, 2014 8:13am
Southern Raider

Hamas breaks the ceasefire and Israel walks out of talks after Hamas fires rockets into Southern Israel

Mike McRoberts on RNZ states “you can’t blame Hamas, what other choice did they have but to fire rockets”
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August 20, 2014 8:13am
Viking2

Voting can’t come soon enough.

Rather feed up with all the crap from the left.
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August 20, 2014 8:13am
tvb

Judith Collins is being asked to take her own responsibility for her Muldoonist style of politics. She is a good Justice Minister BUT. Bill English makes it plain it is not his style and made it plain it is not the Prime Ministers. I think most National Party supporters will support that view.
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August 20, 2014 8:16am
SPC

Lance, so you don’t see know that the Palmer story in the Herald reads like a Civilian satire of the plot in the House of Cards?

Wit is wasted on some
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August 20, 2014 8:16am
Lance

@viking2
Alas I suspect it’s only going to get worse.
Last night the fuckers on TVone news videoed some plonker of a reporter going to Judith Colins front door, nice wide shot so every half wit with a grudge knows what her house looks like.
Assholes
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August 20, 2014 8:18am
Paulus

When will people – the media, realise that the Internal Affairs officer leaked information to the Labour Party five years ago, and it was public knowledge at the time, before the last election.
Getting boring – looking forward to Police action for theft – oh I forgot they have not got the time as there are over 100 other actionable election cases still in front of it, and they do not have the sheer brainpower to investigate.
Ok to prosecute Banks but anything else is too difficult, and the judges would throw out any possible convictions.
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August 20, 2014 8:19am
SPC

Lance, so what if they know what her house looks like. Those in the street already know where she lives, others do not know what street it is.
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August 20, 2014 8:20am
oldpark

Some time ago the charismatic Labour PM said.”The NZ MSM were like reef fish” He was on the button. as we see the so called MSM swishing and swerving chasing every bit of gossip and rumour.Come hell or high water they are hell bent in turning NZ into the basket case of the South Pacific by trying to get potential economy wreckers elected as the Government BY DEFAULT.Biggest pathetic hypocrites are the Australian owned NZ HERALD.When Andrea Vance a NZ journalist had her emails stolen that paper led the charge of all sorts of claims,from GCSB,SIS or just anyone they could blame.Now alongs comes a self confessed thief Called tricky NIcky Hager of many many personal emails .The Australian owned Herald embraces the thief, then uses some of the stolen emails to sell their paper.Here we have Hager making money selling stolen goods,as well as THE NZ HERALD,of alleged events of at least five years ago.Question what is more important the rantings of Hager ,or some cloth capped Journalist union hack in the Herald calling himself a” journalist” when really just another thief of someone elses emails.”LETS HOPE WHEN THE POLICE INVESTIGATE HAGER ,THEY ALSO INVESTIGATE THE HERALD,MAKING MONEY FROM THEFT.
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August 20, 2014 8:23am
IGM

Campbell has really excelled in his pro-Labour escapade. He has gone from gutter trawling to absolute sewer tactics, and the sleeze, lies, deception, and innuendo is getting worse. Is he related to the other despicable disgrace Gordon Campbell of Fairfax? They are as bad as one another. I hope Mazda realise while he is using their excellent product many companies are now pulling the pin on their purchases. Also, is he now another regular at the Slobcom bunker?
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August 20, 2014 8:24am
Komata

Southern Raider

Re: ‘Mike McRoberts on RNZ states “you can’t blame Hamas, what other choice did they have but to fire rockets”

No prizes for guessing where his sympathies lie.

Objective, neutral journalism and reporting?

Somehow I DON’T think so, but at least we now know that he is just like all the other NZ media ‘Reporter’s’ and should invest in a large container of salt, ‘New Zealand Journalists, the reporting by, to be applied to’.

Thanks.
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August 20, 2014 8:26am
Viking2

Yesterday was a watershed day for KB and DPF.
Here is how I feel about the attacks on both.

Having watched this at times through the day (Tuesday), and wondered I am left with an abiding sense of doom with the great attempts at thought control, censorship to suit others and in general an attempt to hijack DPF’s right to Freedom of Speech and his customers (bloggers), right to that same free speech.

It will be a cold day in hell when Davids blog gets controlled by any form of censorship.

Viking2 (11,211 comments) says:
August 19th, 2014 at 8:34 pm
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/some_changes_for_kiwiblog.html#respond
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August 20, 2014 8:26am
thePeoplesFlag

A great piece on Kim Dotcom in the Guardian – http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/17/kim-dotcom-megaupload-new-zealand-interview
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August 20, 2014 8:29am
EAD

Once again the MSM not mentioning the elephant in the room.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/rod-liddle/9286532/its-ok-to-mention-anti-semitic-attacks-but-not-who-commits-them/?preferdesktop

When did the MSM in every single Western country that they can deliberately tell lies and hide the truth from the public? Islam, Global warming, economics, foreign affairs the list never ends.

Like Orwell warned:

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it”
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August 20, 2014 8:30am
EAD

The funniest, most truthful and damming cartoon I’ve ever seen on Obama – too busy playing golf while the world around him burns:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-19/ignorance-still-bliss
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August 20, 2014 8:34am
Padriv Ustoev

EAD

I don’t understand why you are so surprised, Islamic organizations just have better PR people. We say what we need to say untill it becomes the truth to everyone. Just like reciting recitinga a sura. With good PR we can change the world for teh better. Insha’Allah!
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August 20, 2014 8:37am
Nukuleka

I remain optimistic about the September 20 result! National will prevail. John Key was absolutely right not to appear on Campbell Live and to walk away from the relentlessly boring and repetitive media questioning.

The baddies in this whole charade are the media, and most reasonable NZers see it for what it is- a beat-up. In spite of all the dirt being hurled Key will emerge unscathed and National will hold its support. What after all is the alternative? Cunliffe as PM with Norman AND Turei as co-Deputy PMs. The prospect is simply too unacceptable and worrying to the majority of voters.

No matter what The Standard bloggers who have strayed into KB waters wish to believe, their nasty Dotcom driven viciousness is not going down well with mainstream New Zealand.
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August 20, 2014 8:38am
mjw

Lance – no worries. It’s ok, I am still on my meds! 🙂
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August 20, 2014 8:40am
oldpark

Never mind where is Judith Collins.Where is Russel Norman the Australian Commie import,the half owner of the no electoral seats Green ISIS like party.Notice Materialistic Turei,a reincarnation of Friar Tuck,and dressed like a Tower of London Beefeater guard dog is getting all that party’s lies and propaganda,with their holier than thou comments, even though they were caught smashing National Pary signs ,and also running a secret rental trust ,using NZ taxpayers money.
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August 20, 2014 8:41am
Padriv Ustoev

Komata – RNZ has been very receptive to the plight of the people of Gaza, for which the have our thanks. It is a shame that when we vote in the righteous government that nest of pederasty will need to be judged according to Shariah. Insha’Allah!
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August 20, 2014 8:42am
Black with a Vengeance

Anyone else worried more about Ebola than what colour Collin’s dirty underwear is gonna be flying in public today ?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/10400842/Ill-African-traveller-put-in-isolation-at-hospital

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729046/Germany-Ebola-scare-Nigerian-woman-showing-symptoms-killer-disease-faints-jobcentre-forcing-600-people-quarantine.html
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August 20, 2014 8:45am
jcuk

Dirty Politics …. YAWN! …. what’s next?
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August 20, 2014 8:47am
flipper

IGM (35 comments) says:

August 20th, 2014 at 8:24 am

Campbell has really excelled in his pro-Labour escapade
****
Heh IGM…

Good news. Check out the latest audience ratings.. 7 Sharp up, dickhead down. to below 200T.
Mazda might well be doing that critical review, as might TV3’s owners.
Whale had it yesterday I think
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August 20, 2014 8:50am
Komata

Padriv

(From Serbia?)

A very informative reply. Thank you.
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August 20, 2014 8:51am
WineOh

WTF is with this Judith Collins bashing all of a sudden.

Naming a street after someone she “had links with” instead of a Cantabrian? Isn’t this just a bit too precious-pup & a big deal out of nothing? FFS I’m surprised with the number of streets around that we don’t revert to the American version of using numbers instead.
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August 20, 2014 8:52am
FeralScrote

It is getting serious,the weasel Norman and the wide mouth frog with their 10% of the vote now feel they are in a position to dictate terms to Labour( and the rest of us ,if the worst happens).
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August 20, 2014 8:57am
Nookin

In my view, the most significant issues arising out of the Hager book are not attack dog tactics of Cameron Slater nor whether there is any form of liaison between the blogging community and ministers. Both are so patently obvious that they need no comment. No, the most significant issues relate to the justification for publishing the documentation known to have been secured either by criminal activity or by procuring a staff member to breach the terms of employment agreement and the statutory obligations of good faith on the pretext that publication is in the interests of the public.

On Pundit, yesterday, Prof Andrew Geddis justified publication of information obtained from our host on the basis that it was in the interests of the public to know about the exchange of information between bloggers and members of Parliament. It did not matter whether the information imparted was scurrilous, wrong or, simply, informative. It was the strategy of using the blogosphere that justified revelation coupled with the seemingly popular notion in New Zealand that if one sticks one’s head above the parapet one can expect to be shot.

In response to that article, I questioned whether journalists are the most appropriate people to make any sort of judgement on the conflicting interests of public disclosure and maintaining trust and confidence in the workplace. I add to that whether they are in a position to be the arbiters on maintaining the balance between the right of the public to know on the one hand and the maintenance of law and order on the other. In my view, the answer is clearly no.

My view has been reinforced this morning. I refer to the following links. The first one states that the Law Society is “furious” with Judith Collins over the naming of a lane in the Christchurch Court precinct. If you read the article, you will not find any mention of the Law Society anywhere. There are two named (retired I think) practitioners. Remember, there is only one Law Society. That is the New Zealand Law Society. There is no indication that the Law Society is involved in any way shape or form let alone arriving with its knickers in a twist over Collins’ actions.

This morning, during the 7 o’clock News, the newsreader referred to Key giving Collins a second last chance or yet another last chance. This is repeated in the links below. Listen to the Prime Minister’s interview. He is asked whether Judith Collins has been given a “last last chance”. He says “no”. He says that she is on a last chance after what happened last time. Although he says that it was unwise to disclose the name of the public servant, he does not make any mention at all of taking issue directly with Collins over this issue whether in the context of a warning, advice or expression of disappointment. What is it about “no” that the journalists do not understand?

The contents of the interview and of the text of the report under “law society is furious” are quite clear and obvious. Can anybody offer any explanation other than the headlines are deliberate distortions of what actually happened?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10400852/Law-Society-furious-with-Judith-Collins
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10400852/Law-Society-critical-of-Judith-Collins
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311364
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311364
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August 20, 2014 8:59am
Judith

Nukuleka (242 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 8:38 am

So what you are saying is that when right wing activists like Whaleoil are nasty and vicious it is acceptable, simply because they are on the right, but when other people are equally as nasty and vicious, when they are on the left, it is wrong?

I don’t think there are very many people in New Zealand that would describe Cameron Slater as a ‘nice’ right wing activist. So your point to me appears to be very hypocritical, when you are claiming what is acceptable for one group is not for another.

What Whaleoil et al have conducted is a right wing smear campaign, in which they utilised the media as much as possible to promote material they had obtained by dirty practices. Now, the tide has turned, as it does, and the media are being engaged by the left to promote material they have obtained by dirty practises – it is still the same game, and to me, the only question is, where should the lines be drawn – what aren’t NZers prepared to accept?

Do our MP’s need a ‘code of conduct’ such as one used by the State Services that prevents bringing their ’employer’ into disrepute even in their private lives?
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August 20, 2014 8:59am
Black with a Vengeance

Naming a street after someone she “had links with” instead of a Cantabrian?

That is a bit rank though. Just another example of bad judgment.

She really does need to be shown the door eh!
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August 20, 2014 9:01am
Pete George

with their 10% of the vote now feel they are in a position to dictate terms to Labour

If Greens get say 14% to Labour’s 34% they would have a right to dictate quite a bit in any coalition arrangement. Even if they got 12%, Labour 32% and NZ First or Internet-Mana 6% they can dictate with a quarter of the say.
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August 20, 2014 9:04am
oldpark

Just heard on the news that the slimy NZ HERALD is about to start attacking the Labour Party with an embarrassing story taken from Hagers stolen emails,A story about a Labour Politician called Stuart Nash.Wonder will the reef fish media pursue him to the ends of the earth,as seen last night on the Labour Party channel TVNZ,some dolly bird was seen banging the door of Judith Collins That wont happen,wrong party for TVNZ.
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August 20, 2014 9:09am
Komata

WineOH

Judith Collins bashing? By the NZ media? Us? Never, no, never. Not ‘arf it aint!!

She appears to be good at her job (as Minister of Police) and as the political left hates and is intensely jealous of ‘success’ they are out to destroy her, all the while ‘conveniently’ overlooking the fact that their ‘leaders’ have actually been guilty of far worse. it is an interesting application of the phrase’ it’s OK when the left do it’.

Unfortunately, Mrs Collins has made some mistakes and errors of judgement, which have not helped her case and, as such has shown herself to be vulnerable; an aspect that the MSM, is trying to exploit to ensure her destruction. However, it should be remembered that the MSM (although denying it) is essentially incapable of ‘thinking by itself’ and as such is following an agenda created for it; they are merely ‘marching to a pre-ordained’ tune, and reflecting the ‘party line’; the line that says ‘Labour Good. National Bad’. Viewed from that perspective, their actions do make a degree of sense.

Unfortunately, I have yet to find an MSM journalist who is brave enough to ‘stand against the tide’; such an individual would seem to be an extinct species (although one can hope…).

Integrity is always a casualty in such matters.
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August 20, 2014 9:10am
Judith

@ Nookin

Can anybody offer any explanation other than the headlines are deliberate distortions of what actually happened?

Can you honestly say that in the past the left, be it Greens, Labour, or even centre, like NZFirst, have not been the receivers of headlines that are also deliberate distortions of what actually happened?

The thing is Nookin, that an awful lot of what I have seen you complain about that is currently being (yes, unfairly in some instances) thrown at National, has in the past, with Nationals support, been also utilised to throw at the left.

It is very hypocritical to start now complaining about the way the media handle it now that who you support is on the receiving end, and yet you sat back and perhaps laughed, when the same was happening to others?

As someone said to me this morning, Collin’s double pay back policy seems to have caught on – I wonder how she is enjoying it when she is on the receiving end?
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August 20, 2014 9:11am
Judith

@ Komata (1,135 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 9:10 am

I doubt a journalist with too much ‘integrity’ would be very well read in today’s climate. Let’s face it, people like dirt – not just in politics, but about everything. They like to know what famous people are eating and who they are sleeping with, or even not sleeping with and why – when the public have such a thirst and there is money to be made by providing them with what they want, even if its just innuendo, then ones ‘standards’ can easily be forgotten or excused with the need to earn an income.
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August 20, 2014 9:16am
Ross12

Nookin

” Prof Andrew Geddis justified publication of information obtained from our host on the basis that it was in the interests of the public to know about the exchange of information between bloggers and members of Parliament. ”

I agree with your comments on this Nookin. Geddis and many others ,who are trying to justify Hager’s criminal activities, are using this argument that bloggers are somehow different to journalists and are not part of the general media. That ignores the fact that media changes as the technology involved in it changes. Bloggers are as much part of modern media as any print or digital journalist. These same people are trying to say Hager is a journalist when he has written a book –I thought book writers were authors.

Your examples of misquoting show why journalists always rank near the bottom end of the “most trust professions” list when they are polled.

If there is anything in the argument of “public interest” then I think that part of the law needs to be looked and reviewed.
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August 20, 2014 9:22am
flipper

Nookin….
Excellent stuff, quite agree.

In my post yesterday on Kiwiblog changes I made the following points:

” … The problem is that blogs are part of the media as it is in 2014. Only the fools fighting a rear guard action in the MSM (mainly print) believe that the word refers to them alone. Over the past two hundred years the media has been in a state of continuous evolution, now having reached a point where the print version might be in death throes. Why? Because the internet has made, no has brought about changes, that senior (as in age) folks could never have anticipated.

“To summarise [the evolution] without going in to detail or back to Waterloo or the Crimea – Radio grew out of the advances in telegraphy, and this facilitated media reporting of the Great War. TV came along between the wars, but was never really a WW2 player, and was secondary to Movietone News and the like. There is no need for me to continue to outline the progression but I think my drift is clear. Now we have Facebook, Google, Bing, Twitter and more … and they all report news. Those outlets, bloggers, and the MSM together ARE the media, circa 2014. Did we anticipate this when Woodward and Bernstein (less than 60 years ago,) used Deep Throat to start a chain reaction which brought down a US President??? No.

“So what is the problem, and how to fix?

As The Outside The Beltway Group said in January 2012:
“The Press Council could do with an overhaul, as could the Broadcasting Standards Authority (which in its present form is simply a throwback to the days following the New Zealand Broadcasting Service) so that they better reflect 2011-2012 . Tinkering may be in order, but we detect no voting-public demand for State intervention. There was a time in New Zealand when all radio news bulletins were subject to Government scrutiny (and editing). Once on that slippery slope (again) it is devilishly hard to stop.
“So, how are the New Zealand media to improve their game? It is outside the scope of this document to suggest the ways, even if that were possible, but up their game they must. Otherwise their businesses will eventually fail and be replaced by new players who have solved the problem.

“We make these points to emphasise the importance of the media in the community’s affairs. If they are indeed the “Fourth Estate”, they too must change and grow when the turmoil we are seeing internationally, (and which we expect to dominate public and private affairs ) will in 2012, affect the life and prospects of every citizen in every country. “

“So my “key” point David, is that in 2014 Blogs are indeed part of the media. A good voluntary code of ethics is important for all. But giving editorial moderation to any outside group dominated by existing vested media interests would be a very big mistake.

One final point [Edit – observation]: Journalism is a coverall term. But there are no journalists. Journalism involves the crafts of reporting, editing, photography, computer operation (having replaced type setting), and writing. Writers are writers, not journalists. Reporters are not journalists (but the effete snobs among them continue to believe!), and so on. I wish they could remember that.

And that brings me another form of effete snob – academics, overpaid, and lacking real world, and real work, experience.
But to go there enters the undesirable world of ad hominem…. 🙂
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August 20, 2014 9:27am
Nookin

Judith
Please link me to any post where I have laughed at a deliberate distortion that went against the Greens or labour. If a story is deliberately distorted, regardless of the victim, it is dishonest and is of no help or benefit to anyone. Unfortunately, you won’t see that.
Where have I said it is ok if the right do it?

Answer the argument that I advanced. I have given you the links. The facts are there. Left/right politics do not come into it.

You are illustrating typical dirty politics mentality. Avoid the issue. Ignore the facts. Fabricate another story and try to undermine an argument of someone with whom you disagree with that fabrication.

Did you read my post yesterday where I expanded the argument? It’s on the thread relating to changes in Kiwiblog.
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August 20, 2014 9:27am
ross411

Black with a Vengeance (1,608 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 9:01 am
Naming a street after someone she “had links with” instead of a Cantabrian?

That is a bit rank though. Just another example of bad judgment.

She really does need to be shown the door eh!

You bet! Every negative utterance, and you trot them out at every opportunity, should be actioned at your direction in the way you want. It’s so simple. Why can’t anyone else see it? Maybe some more unsubstantiated claims painted in a negative way! Get on it!
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August 20, 2014 9:28am
ross411

Judith (8,191 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 9:16 am
I doubt a journalist with too much ‘integrity’ would be very well read in today’s climate. Let’s face it, people like dirt – not just in politics, but about everything. They like to know what famous people are eating and who they are sleeping with, or even not sleeping with and why – when the public have such a thirst and there is money to be made by providing them with what they want, even if its just innuendo, then ones ‘standards’ can easily be forgotten or excused with the need to earn an income.

Well said Judith. If what people watch is action and excitement, even if invented or contrived, then why settle for the boring detritus of everyday life.
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August 20, 2014 9:30am
oldpark

Ross

Must be in the” public interest” the secret donors of David Cunliffes slush trust fund.Also what sort of deal Russel Norman from Green Party did with Dotcom,when he had a few meetings with him.Surely the “public interest” is paramount in both examples here.
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August 20, 2014 9:30am
ross411

oldpark (112 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 9:30 am
Ross

Must be in the” public interest” the secret donors of David Cunliffes slush trust fund.Also what sort of deal Russel Norman from Green Part did with Dotcom,when he had a few meetings with him.Surely the “public interest” is paramount in both examples here.

The “public interest” is nonsense. It’s whatever whoever wants something says it is, when they want something, even if when someone else wants that thing in some other way they don’t want, it wouldn’t therefore be in the public interest.
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August 20, 2014 9:33am
Nookin

Well put, Flipper.
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August 20, 2014 9:36am
Judith

@ Nookin (3,136 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 9:27 am

You will note that had a question mark after it. That was placed there because I don’t know, and was simply suggesting that maybe you had ‘laughed’ when you saw labour or the greens were on the receiving end.

I am not illustrating anything of the sort Nookin. As I have said time and time again, I actually have proof, undisputable evidence that prove beyond any doubt that Collins was responsible for actions she has been accused of. So my interest is not about ‘how’ the material was received, that seems to be your focus, but rather what was actually done in the first instance. I do note however, that with the material I have, it places both sides in the same position of being in receipt of material they had no right to.

** In case you ask, I cannot and will not post that evidence here but it is being dealt with by proper sources and not through the media, as I refuse to feed the frenzy.
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August 20, 2014 9:37am
dime

listening to zb this morning.. joyce & king on.. hosking asked king what she would be doing if labour win..

minister of health.

give me strength! what year is this???????? someone put that thing out to pasture!
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August 20, 2014 9:38am
Pete George

This is looking ominous for National and it may be out of control.

Steven Joyce has made allegations that Whaleoil is going to release information about Stuart Nash. Joyce says it is to balance things up. This should be called out for what it is.

It is an out and out lie.

Steven Joyce is a disgrace for suggesting this because he has lied to protect his own interests. Nash wrote two articles for the Truth and I talk to him occasionally like I do with many on the left. I know nothing at all about Stuart Nash doing anything other than he is a bloody good politician who scares National. Nash is winning a National seat because he is a far better politician that Steven Joyce ever will be, and Joyce is having a sook because he will never be as popular as Nash.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/joyce-making-shit-stuart-nash/

@Whaledump is due to release information today about Slater and Stuart Nash.

I’m not sure why Slater is raving about Nash, I’ve seen some of his blog posts and he doesn’t sound very impressive, for example Labour’s first 100 days – where the messaging needs to be
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August 20, 2014 9:38am
Komata

oldpark

Re: ‘Surely the “public interest” is paramount in both examples here’.

But it isn’t; it’s only PUBLIC INTEREST’ when the Right (ie the NZ National party ) do it, never ever when the ‘left’ do such things. The ‘Left’ have this very strange sense of values which predicates that, although all and anything the ‘Right’ do is to be investigated with a view to creating as much damage as possible (and hopefully, even their ‘destruction’), when ‘their own’ do things which are similar (or even worse) it is quite acceptable and not worthy of comment. It is, if you will, very deliberate ‘Willfull Blindness’, and would seem to be very, very, deeply ingrained.

Curiously, there never seems to be any ‘pangs of conscience’ amongst such groups about the consequences of their actions, which makes one wonder about the possibility that their consciences have become a ‘casualty’ of the ‘class war’?

It’s an interesting possibility…
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August 20, 2014 9:38am
Judith

@ ross411 (283 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 9:30 am

As I have often said on here Ross, regardless of which wing we are, most of us are reasonably intelligent people, who are, even if we don’t admit it, able to sort out the basics and know when we are being ‘influenced’ by the media.

Sadly, a very large percentage of the community do not have that ability. Even less so with the standard of media presentations that have slowly dissolved the need to ‘think’ and analyse material presented to them. They quite simply believe what they are told. The dumbing down of society. They cry when they are told to (at the moment many are in ‘grief’ because they’ve been told to mourn the death of a Doctor on Shortland Street), they laugh at who they are told to laugh at (the media decides whether a movie is really deserving of being entertaining or not) and they think people are fools, when they are told to.

If the right to vote was decided by IQ, the world would be a very different place! (yes I’ll get shot for saying that!)
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August 20, 2014 9:44am
flipper

PG…
You are an “old woman” (with apologies to Judith}.
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August 20, 2014 9:47am
Judith

@ flipper (3,731 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 9:47 am

In today’s world I’m blardy glad to be old – damn being young again and having to learn all those lessons! Nope, old is good for me!!
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August 20, 2014 9:50am
Nookin

My post, Judith, was not about Collins and you cannot ask me to comment on or factor into any argument, any matter relating to which you refuse to disclose the details. I told you that the other day. You may have information that is damning and Collins may deserve the boot but your approach is akin to a child saying “anyway, I’ve got a secret and I’m not going to tell you!”
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August 20, 2014 9:57am
Ross12

PG WhaleOil has made a major gaff on this about Joyce. I heard the Hoskings/King/Joyce chat –it was clearly whaledump Joyce referred to.
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August 20, 2014 9:57am
Nukuleka

Judith- poor you having no life as usual. I’ll permit just one wee response before I head out the door to live mine! If you had read my post carefully you would note that I made no mention whatsoever of Whaleoil or C Slater. Quite how you can extrapolate my opinions of Mr Slater from my post I am at a loss to say. Address issues raised and not the little voices that you hear constantly in your head. I fear that they are driving you further and further to distraction.

Have you ever thought of using the same nom de plume on this site as you use when posting on The Standard?
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August 20, 2014 9:58am
Judith

@ Nukuleka (243 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 9:58 am

You are not the first person to accuse me of posting at the Standard. I do not, have not, and probably never will. I don’t even read there.

I have quite a unique style, or so I’ve been told. So why don’t you scroll through the Standard (you are obviously very familiar with the place), and sort out just who you think I am there.

As for a life, I now have a great life, at the moment I’m finishing something for a conference I’m going to on Friday for three days. Its got people from all over the world coming to it, so should be fantastic, and nope, nothing to do with politics! 🙂
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August 20, 2014 10:02am
muggins

You aren’t old Judith, I’ve got over 25 years on you and I reckon I am still middle aged.
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August 20, 2014 10:04am
Pete George

flipper – I don’t know what you are except way off the point.

Don’t underestimate the damage a flopping whale might cause. He’s already pretty much wrecked Judith Collins’ political prospects. And he has a reputation for lashing out when things don’t go his way and can’t be trusted.

He could easily take National down with him.

Ross12 – he’s clearly rattled. That’s dangerous. When dirty and despicable turns rogue it may not be pretty.
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August 20, 2014 10:04am
Mark

Genuine question – Is Collins going to survive until the election or will she resign.
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August 20, 2014 10:07am
macdee

Is Judith Colin’s behaviour any worse than Trevor Mallard’s in relation to Erin Leigh, Collin’s actions five years ago, Mallard’s about seven years ago, if time means nothing and Cunliffe finds this sort of behaviour reprehensible, should Mallard be eligible to be Speaker if the left win the election?
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August 20, 2014 10:10am
Pete George

Hard to say Mark. Things turned worse for her last week and worser yesterday. The only thing that looks certain is it won’t get better for her.
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August 20, 2014 10:11am
Judith

Mark (1,401 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 10:07 am
Genuine question – Is Collins going to survive until the election …

Umm, maybe ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duOoqDu2H70
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August 20, 2014 10:13am
Lindsay Addie

Mark,

Re Collins, my gut feeling is Key won’t get rid of her from cabinet pre-election unless forced to. But that said If National remains the government she must be a serious candidate for demotion in a post election cabinet reshuffle.

She is putting herself in positions too often where she is open to criticisms about her judgement.
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August 20, 2014 10:13am
muggins

Mark,
Key said yesterday that Judith Collins would keep her job , claiming that she was the victim of a ” highly orchestrated Left-wing smear campaign”. He said she was on her last chance after what happened last time but, at the end of the day, she’s subject to a Left-wing smear campaign. He rejected suggestions she was now on her “last,last” warning.
And what people have to remember is that what has come out in the past few days relates to something she did before her last warning, so it predates that warning.
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August 20, 2014 10:23am
dime

What a glorious day. New Texas Hippie Coalition!

Great road trip music.. or drinking music. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-BHZevc0VgY
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August 20, 2014 10:24am
Peter

Collins needs to do the decent thing for the country, and National, and step down. She got her free pass with Orivida. Now, she must take one for the team for this latest fiasco.

I used to like her. She can redeem herself. But she must put our country and her party first, and step down.
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August 20, 2014 10:27am
Judith

I don’t know how Key can catagorically say Collins will keep her job, unless he knows exactly what there is to come on her?

There has to be some level where it becomes untenable to keep her on. Personally, as I have always said, she will drag him down, and he would be better to let her go – there are plenty of capable people to fill her shoes. I just cannot understand why Key is putting up with it – I realise he has to be seen to support his team members, but there comes a time when the rest of the team is being damaged, and he has to think of them.

He wouldn’t be the first leader to have to let one go, for the greater good of what remains.
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August 20, 2014 10:28am
emmess

The only criticism in Hager’s book that hasn’t completely fallen away is that Judith Collins pass on information to Cameron Slater about Stephen Pleasants, and that it has resulted in death threats.

Now while not downplaying the seriousness of this, potentially anything can result in a death threat.
So shouldn’t the person who actually made the death threats be the one held primarily responsible. What are the media doing to investigate who made the threats and what they were? Or do they not actually care?
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August 20, 2014 10:29am
dime

I guess Judith is hanging on cause if she steps down she pretty much has no chance of taking over from key.

I think she should take her medicine.
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August 20, 2014 10:31am
Jack5

The side that loses this year’s General Election might be the lucky one.

Dairy and log prices diving, Europe’s economies, apart from Germany’s, performing poorly, China’s debt blowing out like a hydrogen bomb mushroom cloud, Australia’s commodity prices hit. Big black clouds port, starboard, and dead ahead.

If Greens-Labour rule after the election, it will be three years of hell for NZ, but the end of the Greens for ever, and perhaps the rise of a new more rational party of the Left to represent families and workers, with the academics and an array of activists left clinging to the barely floating hulk of Labour.

If Greens-Labour win, John Key will soon be transitioning to US citizenship ready to seek governorship of Hawaii, and Joyce will be preparing to head a resurgent, strong and economically energetic National Government that will replace the utterly rejected Greens-Labour at the following election.
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August 20, 2014 10:32am
mikenmild

emmess
Not at all concerned about a cabinet minister leaking personal details of a public servant?
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August 20, 2014 10:32am
Peter

On blogs and the new media….

There is no need for an aggregated newspaper. The aggregated newspaper was a compromise based on the available technology and the economics of distribution. The aggregated newspaper – sports, politics, real estate, weather, etc, all bundled into one “issue” – was an entity that tried to be all things to all people. That form was a result of the economics involved.

These days, the economics of production and distribution don’t require bundling. That’s what the MSM doesn’t get. What they produce is unwanted. In fact, it was never really wanted. It was tolerated. i.e. few people ever read all of a newspaper. Most would pay attention only to the sections that interested them.

People can now choose their channels.

Bundling is dead.
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August 20, 2014 10:33am
Dead Earnest

In the meantime Krim Dotom seems to have disappeared, he won’t talk to the media re his connection with Hagar. Laila has to front, perhaps shes scared Krim might let the truth slip out!
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August 20, 2014 10:33am
dime

Dimes final observation for the day.. Whale Oil has gone feral lol

Just had a look at his site. He’s losing it.
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August 20, 2014 10:34am
backster

“Naming a street after someone she “had links with” instead of a Cantabrian?

That is a bit rank though. Just another example of bad judgment.”

I agree no street should be named after a Judge until we have a Ritchie McCaw Road, Ritchie McCaw Street, Ritchie McCaw Avenue and Ritchie McCaw Way
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August 20, 2014 10:41am
Peter

I guess Judith is hanging on cause if she steps down she pretty much has no chance of taking over from key.

She has no chance of taking over from Key, anyway. Not now. This is the time to put the nation and the party first. Else, she’s just a mechanism the LabGreens attack dogs can – rather effectively, as it turns out – use.
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August 20, 2014 10:43am
Jack5

Dead Earnest: How many SEALs do you reckon it would take to lift Dotcom into a raft for transition to a submarine?
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August 20, 2014 10:44am
UglyTruth

If there is anything in the argument of “public interest” then I think that part of the law needs to be looked and reviewed.

Public Interest. Something in which the public, the community at large, has some pecuniary interest, or some interest by which their legal rights or liabilities are affected. It does not mean anything so narrow as mere curiosity, or as the interests of the particular localities, which may be affected by the matters in question. Interest shared by citizens generally in affairs of local, state or national government.
Black’s 5th edition
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August 20, 2014 10:45am
muggins

I don’t believe Hagar’s book will make much difference as to which party people will vote for. But I will be interested to see the next political poll. Usually I don’t take much notice of polls, it’s what happens on the day the counts. But the next one will be interesting.
I rang a plumber yesterday and out of the blue he asked me what I thought of the latest shenanigans. I said it wouldn’t make any difference to the way I voted and he said not him, either. He said he was a National supporter, I just said I was apolitical.
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August 20, 2014 10:47am
UglyTruth

Key said yesterday that Judith Collins would keep her job , claiming that she was the victim of a ” highly orchestrated Left-wing smear campaign”

“highly orchestrated smear campaign” : politically correct language
“conspiracy” : tinfoil hat territory
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August 20, 2014 10:48am
polemic

Jack5 What a brilliant idea.

It is one thing that NZ has something credible in our massive Dept of Defence is an SAS who are well respected with the SEAL Community.

The SAS could practice Un-revolutionising him by carting him off to a Rigid Inflatable and meeting a Submarine somewhere nearby .

Nah that would be to boring.

The public need to see that law has to be upheld by all.
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August 20, 2014 10:58am
emmess

emmess
Not at all concerned about a cabinet minister leaking personal details of a public servant?

If WhaleOil publicized the contact details then yes.
If not no.

I am not clear on what the situation was. It was reported that Slater already knew the name.
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August 20, 2014 10:58am
Judith

dime (9,599 comments) says:
August 20th, 2014 at 10:34 am

To be fair, he is under a hell of a lot of pressure – much of his own doing, however, he would be best to step away from the keyboard for now.

Someone pointed out to me yesterday, whaleoil is probably the biggest victim in all this – he is the puppet, and his nature has allowed him to be played from all sides by people with agendas. Many of whom are happy to disown him, now he’s been caught doing what they asked.

Imagine if Whaleoil put all that energy in doing something positive for the world –
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August 20, 2014 11:04am
flipper

mikenmild (11,151 comments) says:

August 20th, 2014 at 10:32 am

emmess
Not at all concerned about a cabinet minister leaking personal details of a public servant?
Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1
****

Naah…
It is pay back for all the leaking lefto state employees.
And public servants? Bullshit, milky.
It is all much ado over a smart arse labour supporter in IA who leaked on W English’s private, but legitimate, matters, 5 years ago. Fuck off!

En passant, why not ask your ultimate bosses in the SSC to re-start publication of the government employee list, complete with salaries. That cream covered book was ever so valuable in determining the pecking order etc within the mass of cardigans. But the PSA wold object, just like they did to get it stopped. But as you know, the official reason was to stop the private sector head-hunting at realistic salary levels.
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August 20, 2014 11:09am
Nostalgia-NZ

It’s probably only because of WO attack on the people in Canterbury that’s it’s difficult not to imagine that he actually shares something with them – uncertainty. Although, hopefully it is receding now, the Cantabs have faced years of wondering when the next quake might strike. Most have chosen to live with that – possibly accepting that there is no control over nature. In the last week however, some of that uncertainty has shifted, at least in part, to Auckland to what could also possibly be called a ‘natural’ event. It’s hard not to accept that Ministers of The Crown must not have thought that there would be consequences caused by ‘leaking.’ That’s exactly what has happened, apparently 7 years of emails fallen into the hands of someone and already, no doubt, copied many times over. There is no turning back from that for those that have been involved, but there is the chance however for the next Government, along with the support of Parliament to clean up ‘leaking’ and hopefully something practical and worthwhile will have emerged from all this.

Spare a thought however, that while there are prominent names among the discussion now, there are also ‘lesser’ people whose lives have been also been affected. Some of those may be blackmailed, or will have been blackmailed in the past, plenty (as we have seen) will have been threatened or worse. On that basis, and looking forward to Parliament creating Legislation or safe guards to prevent (or at least try to prevent) the same happening in the future – people are going to have to ask if those that have misused the public trust should have any right to take part in putting in place such a remedy, or indeed to take part in future Government. This is a consideration for all politicians and all political parties because none possibly are above what has happened, but on the other hand the bloody lot of them owe it to the public to clean up their act as elected representatives of the public. Some of what has come out, the language and the contempt for others, is gangland type language from people who by their comments have little respect for themselves let alone others – seeing all the world as an enemy or potential enemy. Time for the good guys (and gals) to kick the ‘bad uns’ to touch before respect for all of them is lost.

I’ll close on this with a comment about Bill English. I’ve had the utmost admiration for him for a long time as I’m sure have many others. In the paranoia of the last little while following the ‘dry’ quake that has manifested itself in a book, some have pointedly mentioned English to me as not being the person I thought he was. I guess it would be easy to swallow rumour right now, even if some of it might be disappointing. So, rightly or wrongly (because I haven’t decided to read THAT book at this stage) I stuck with my opinion of BE. If he had fooled me and others, he did so again yesterday with his comments that it wasn’t ‘his style’ when referring to ‘leaking.’ I’m not a gambler but I’d bet on that.
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August 20, 2014 11:15am
Pete George

Richard Harman ‏@RMAHarman

In Feb 2012 Whale’s mate Lusk said National could only clean out the wets in its senior ranks if it was ppred to lose an election.

Is Joyce a targeted wet? He is often mentioned alongside Judith Collins as future leader potential.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/joyce-making-shit-stuart-nash/
http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/joyce-still-making-shit/
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August 20, 2014 11:45am
Puzzled in Ekatahuna

• How many Orivieda indiscretions and Cameron Slater emails equal a “What is happening” phone call to the police on the behalf of a constituent?

• “We are educating him, but he is the product of a sexist culture which we need to remedy. He is completely open to being educated.”
– Dr Pani Farvid, an Iranian-born psychologist at AUT, the Internet Party’s gender issues spokeswoman speaking of Kim Dotcom, the Internet Party’s “visionary” – the originator of future thinking that is wise and imaginative.

• ‘Teapot Tapes’ cop to look at Slater complaint –
Shit!! … is it going to take that long?

• When Hager the Horrible said Police should forget raiding him because he has sent the email evidence back to the source, then claimed that same source was anonymous to him, where did he send the emails to?

• Does the Hacker now have in his hands the material Cameron Slater threatend to release on Dotcom in his ‘not a bombshell, but B-52 carpet-bombing’ promise?

• As Cunliffe contemplated having lunch with the Queenstown Man With No Name, did he not consider that someone, in fact just anyone, would see them and put one and one together and get three? – as exactly did happen.

• So was Cunliffe’s curiosity as to what the Man With No Name wanted – to perhaps make a donation to Labour – was that curiosity, despite the obvious inevitable ethical fallout, much different to those who looked at Labour’s website when Labour’s stupid computer illiterates “left the backdoor open”?

• Bloggers who have no contact with Cunliffe
One of his closest advisers (priming him for the televised debates) Polity blogger Rob Salmond.
Greg Presland, a lawyer friend involved in setting up his leadership fund trust – or secret six month loan, after the cash was returned – blogs as MickeySavage at The Standard
and the three Standard bloggers inside the leaders office

• … to stand trial in the US, where he faces up to 88 years in jail – The Guardian
another point which should disqualify Dotcom from being in Parliament – or New Zealand.

• How does National’s campaign manager, Steven Joyce, know what Whaledump is going to do next?
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August 20, 2014 11:50am
doggone7

IGM: “Campbell has …gone from gutter trawling to absolute sewer tactics, and the sleeze, lies, deception, and innuendo…”

I did not see the programme/s you speak of. Could you please list some of the sleaze, the lies, the deception and innuendos which have prompted your post. Thank you.
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August 20, 2014 11:51am
Pete George

• How does National’s campaign manager, Steven Joyce, know what Whaledump is going to do next?

He could have read it in multiple media reports like I have.

Or it could be part of a complex plot.
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August 20, 2014 11:53am
Pete George

A plot it appears to be, the game continues.

Whaledump @whaledump

trololololol! wtf?? I don’t have anything on Nash. Somebody is black opsing somebody.

WO v me? WO v Joyce? Joyce v me? WO v Nash? @robhosking v all? lolololololol

An anonymous takeover of the election campaign.

This is truly some next level black ops shit.
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August 20, 2014 12:05pm
Ross12

On the Hosking / Joyce / King chat this morning on ZB Joyce made a comment that Labour and the Greens have not got together to align their policies so people can clearly what will happen if they get in power. I think it was a good comment ( although I’m not sure why he would give them helpful hints).
Now we have the Greens coming out with –we will have bigger surplus than National. Fair enough they have had a calculator out but these are the same people who 6mths ago were ranting about how having a surplus was not important. But more importantly Norman is presupposing that he will get ALL his economic ideas in place so they can get this surplus. So Norman must think the Greens will out vote Labour ( Tui ad !!!) and he will not put any of Labour’s spending ideas in place which could conflict with the Greens way to get a surplus.
In summary –Norman is in lalala land !!
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August 20, 2014 12:06pm
Monique Angel

When did Whaleoil attack Canterbury? There was no violence. He just wrote a colorful opinion on a popular blog. It’s all a load of bullshit IMHO. Hager wrote a book that will sell two more copies to Campbell Live staff before it is pulped. Big Deal. Saddest aspect is bloggers taking it all on board. As Red said. It’s like Jonestown over on WO.

I got moderated off for WO for Potty Mouth recently.
Can’t believe it myself. I’m back on the edgier Kiwiblog until I can be bothered begging for commenting privileges on WO. Which will be never as I would have to admit doing wrong to some random.
Never say sorry or revisit your actions. It’s an admission of liability and results in demotion as Pack Leader. You may initially get your tummy tickled but eventually you end up licking someone else’s balls.
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August 20, 2014 12:09pm
kowtow

Absolutly fucken bonkers.And this from a suposedly Conservative Govt.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11043785/Bullying-husbands-face-jail-under-new-proposals-by-Theresa-May.html

“E ,Jeff,give us ‘undred quid for new pairra shoes”

“Er Sal,can’t afford em”

Knock ,knock. “You’re nicked mate”
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August 20, 2014 12:15pm

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