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June 5, 2016 7:00am by David Farrar

RIP The Greatest

RIP Muhammad Ali. He was and is The Greatest. The only other boxed who I think came close in terms of dominance was Mike Tyson at his peak.

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Comment45

Sport
Muhammad Ali
RIP

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Comments (45)

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Longknives

RIP Ali- He was The Greatest.
But in terms of comparing different champions from different eras and talking ‘dominance it’s worth mentioning Rocky Marciano never lost one of his 49 fights (and knocked out 43 of those opponents!)
And Joe Louis was Heavyweight Champ for eleven years!
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June 5, 2016 7:07am
EAD

Ali had the highest profile but wasn’t the best. He was the first heavily promoted boxer in the age of television.

Rocky Marciano was far a far better boxer and had a far better record but his time was 10 years too early.

RIP Ali – a great man and one of the world’s top boxers of all time.
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June 5, 2016 7:11am
Longknives

I’m a huge fan of The Brockton Blockbuster EAD- But one could argue that Rocky never fought the calibre of fighters Ali did through his career- Liston,Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Shavers (The Golden era of Heavyweight Boxing)
And yes I know he knocked out Joe Louis- But as Eddie Murphy famously said “Joe Louis was 75 years old in that fight!”
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June 5, 2016 7:18am
Longknives

Reminds me- People talking about Ali’s great quotes but he never had anything as iconic as Joe Louis’ “You can run but you can’t hide”..
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June 5, 2016 7:21am
Nostalgia-NZ

Easy to overlook that Ali was equally good at fighting going backwards as he was moving forward. On that count alone he stands out before you get to that magical jab that could deliver 3 in a row, seemed like more sometimes. Doubling up on the jab is the ceiling for most boxers but Ali went past that with ease, out thought his opponents before he was even in the ring. None of that compared though to his wit or quick mind, however for me it was when the establishment took him down for his beliefs that the true champion emerged, then later as the messenger of time visited upon his skills his mortality until he was but one man again fighting for the beliefs and aspirations of millions worldwide that I could see the greatest.
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June 5, 2016 7:52am
NK

Granny has started its demonising of the guy with an article that calls him a womaniser and a shit father (to those children he knows of).

They’re very brave publishing this *after* his death.
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June 5, 2016 8:11am
freedom101

The Greatest, not just as a boxer, but as a human being and leader. He refused the draft for Vietnam and was stripped of his world title. He campaigned for equal rights. He was a poet. In his time he was the most recognised face on the planet.
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June 5, 2016 8:15am
nickb

I’ve wrestled with alligators,
I’ve tussled with a whale.
I done handcuffed lightning
And throw thunder in jail.
You know I’m bad.
just last week, I murdered a rock,
Injured a stone, Hospitalized a brick.
I’m so mean, I make medicine sick.
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June 5, 2016 8:32am
big bruv

It is simply amazing to me that so many people fall over themselves to avoid the fact that Ali was a blatant racist. Had Ali been white and talked about blacks and whites keeping to their own racial groups and not integrating he would have been rightly lambasted.

Now, none of that takes away his unrivaled skills as a boxer. He remains the best I have ever seen in the heavyweight division and in the top three of all time in any weight division.

I am also struck though at how the level of loss does not seem as great at his passing, having pondered this for a day now I have come to the conclusion that the level of loss does not feel so great for the reason that due to his Parkinson’s and his withdrawal from public life he effectively has ben gone from our lives for thirty years. His passing is simply confirmation of that.
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June 5, 2016 8:49am
Fentex

He refused the draft for Vietnam and was stripped of his world title.

I resist plaudits about being a “great person” which come from being famous, but I have always admired his courage regarding the draft and what he said to make his point…

I ain’t draft dodging. I ain’t burning no flag. I ain’t running to Canada. I’m staying right here.

You want to send me to jail? Fine, you go right ahead. I’ve been in jail for 400 years. I could be there for 4 or 5 more, but I ain’t going no 10,000 miles to help murder and kill other poor people.

If I want to die, I’ll die right here, right now, fightin’ you, if I want to die. You my enemy, not no Chinese, no Vietcong, no Japanese. You my opposer when I want freedom. You my opposer when I want justice. You my opposer when I want equality.

Want me to go somewhere and fight for you? You won’t even stand up for me right here in America, for my rights and my religious beliefs. You won’t even stand up for my right here at home.
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June 5, 2016 8:52am
stephieboy

big bruv, there is that but recall also he grew up in a sea of racial taunts and innuendo and certainly never displayed those attributes against white boxers like Henry Cooper ,who if hadn’t being for that nick over his eyebrow ,may will of beaten the greatest .

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/676779/Muhammad-Ali-predictions-Henry-Cooper-fight

Ali was very magnanimous towards his fallen foe and the after the bout ,as per above ,never agin would try and predict a fight .
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June 5, 2016 8:54am
big bruv

Stephieboy

Cooper would never have beaten Ali, that is simply an English myth. As for Ali, people today do not make allowances for times past when judging people like John Wayne so why should a blatant racist like Ali be cut any slack.

If we are going to be honest about Ali then we need to tell the entire story. He was a racist, he was a serial cheater and a shit parent. He could be incredibly cruel in the ring to those he hated, more than once he prolonged a fight just so he could inflict more damage on an opponent when he could have won at any stage by knocking his opponent out.
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June 5, 2016 9:01am
stephieboy

big bruv , the last part could be a summation of the reality behind boxing which all said and done is merely a blood sport !

http://heavy.com/sports/2015/02/blood-sport-the-boxing-pictures-you-need-to-see/

Interesting this about his Coach,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Dundee
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June 5, 2016 9:08am
Inandout

Remember this fictional fight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XKcGRREcaM

It would have been a super fight if it had happened in real life.
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June 5, 2016 9:12am
Longknives

“He remains the best I have ever seen in the heavyweight division and in the top three of all time in any weight division.”

Trying to figure out the other two…
Not sure how old you are Bruv (despite many people claiming we are one and the same!) but I am going to say-
Sugar Ray Leonard? Carlos Monzon??
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June 5, 2016 9:20am
tvb

You forgot to say “my thoughts are with his family.”
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June 5, 2016 9:30am
Boris Piscina

Dead Muslim.

Just saying.
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June 5, 2016 9:41am
Inandout

It is rather ironic that Ali changed to Islam (sunni) on the basis of ‘Clay’ being a former slave name.

‘Later, Ali announced: “Cassius Clay is a slave name. I didn’t choose it and I don’t want it. I am Muhammad Ali, a free name – it means beloved of God, and I insist people use it when people speak to me.”

Surely ironic in that he swapped one form of slavery (historic) for another (current) Islam.

I recall reading of how the singer Paul Robeson was shamelessly used by the Left, and I suspect that Ali was similarly used by Islam.
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June 5, 2016 9:58am
MCos

I would suggest you restrict your comments to topics you know something about, Inandout
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June 5, 2016 10:14am
Inandout

MCos: Enlighten me.
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June 5, 2016 10:31am
Kimbo

The only other boxed who I think came close in terms of dominance was Mike Tyson at his peak.

Hmm. As a self-promoter, sure. But as a boxer, Joe Frazier was Ali’s equal and they made each other equally great. “Styles make fights” and they were perfectly matched – Ali the matador, and Frazier the bull. Their first (‘the fight of the Century’ in New York in 1971) and third (‘the thrilla in Manila’) fights were probably the greatest world heavy weight bouts of all time.

At the end of the 14th round in Manila, when Ali, slumped on his stool told his corner to “cut my gloves off, I can’t go another round”. Frazier’s corner man, Eddie Futch beat them to it by throwing in the towel as his fighter was blind. Frazier begged him, “No, no, no! Boss, let me go one more round!”, to which Futch replied, “It’s over. No one will forget what you did here today”.

And now they are reunited in death…
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June 5, 2016 11:10am
Kimbo

@ EAD

Rocky Marciano was far a far better boxer and had a far better record but his time was 10 years too early.

But who did Marciano fight? Six bouts as world champion in about 3 years against the likes of Jersey Joe Walcott (and admittedly undefeated in 49 fights as a pro – but over a much shorter career than Clay/Ali).

In contrast Clay/Ali was first among equals in an era of great heavy weights – Liston, Patterson, Frazier Foreman, Norton, Shavers, a young Larry Holmes…
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June 5, 2016 11:16am
Ross Miller

Inandout … just to the the record straight the then Clay converted to the Nation of Islam (the radical African-American Islamist religious movement founded in Detroit in 1930 by Wallace D Fard Muhammad) in 1964. In 1974 he changed to the more mainstream Sunni sect. In 2005 he embraced the more mystical Sufis practices of that religion.
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June 5, 2016 11:19am
deadrightkev

Ali was the great boxer of his era and was flamboyant at a time of deep conservatism in society so he attracted attention. I suspect Joseph Parker would whoop him easily today given training and dietary advances. The media enhanced Ali’s legendary status.

Ali was reportedly not too pleasant with his women. He was a Muslim so nothing much has changed for Muslim males and females.
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June 5, 2016 12:06pm
NK

Plenty of people who aren’t Muslims who treat woman like sh*t, Kevin. And sadly there are plenty of woman who also aren’t Muslim put up with it.
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June 5, 2016 1:00pm
towaka

One aspect about Ali`s live is he is the proof of how unreliable I.Q tests and school systems are at judging someone`s ”intelligence”.

Ali left High School with a D minus and missed out on the first draft into the army because his I.Q score of 78 was to low (the army lowered their requirements later as they needed more ”canon fodder” for Vietnam)

Yet in the real world Ali had genius level intelligence for promoting his fights (and including himself) and also for practicing what Steve Waugh called ”mental disintegration” of his opponents.Some of which showed the ugly side of Ali esp. the way he portrayed Frazier as a ”Uncle Tom” even after Frazier had supported him for his stance on the Vietnam war!
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June 5, 2016 1:28pm
Kimbo

@ towaka

One aspect about Ali`s live is he is the proof of how unreliable I.Q tests and school systems are at judging someone`s ”intelligence”.

Ali left High School with a D minus and missed out on the first draft into the army because his I.Q score of 78 was to low (the army lowered their requirements later as they needed more ”canon fodder” for Vietnam)

Yet in the real world Ali had genius level intelligence for promoting his fights (and including himself) and also for practicing what Steve Waugh called ”mental disintegration” of his opponents.Some of which showed the ugly side of Ali esp. the way he portrayed Frazier as a ”Uncle Tom” even after Frazier had supported him for his stance on the Vietnam war!

Yes, Ali was like many dyslexics, able to compensate his inability to read with an excellent and on-the-spot verbal expression – although some of his lines such as, “No Viet Cong ever called me ‘nigger'” were fed to him by the Black Muslims.

In 1972 some of the All Blacks who were touring the UK at the time were introduced to Ali, who was in London at the time training and promoting. On hearing who they were, Ali replied with wide eyes, “Well, if you guys are named ‘the All Blacks’, you gotta be good!”

But my favourite was before his first fight with Sonny Liston. In truth, Clay was scared witless of Liston (“the big ugly bear”), who, in frustration at Clay’s antics at one point produced a gun and started firing…blanks. But before the fight a reporter said to Clay, as an introduction to a question, “We’ve been watching Sonny Liston…”, and quick as a flash, Clay interjected, “Ain’t he ugly?!”. Priceless.
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June 5, 2016 1:53pm
Kimbo

Speaking of Liston, the dive he almost undoubtedly took in the first round of their title re-match in 1965 was probably not because of mafia money or threats (even though Liston probably had mob connections)…but more because he (Liston) was afraid of what the Black Muslims would do if he beat Ali. It was, after all just a few months after Malcolm X had been assassinated. There is the famous photo of Ali standing over Liston, screaming at him. Allegedly he was telling Liston, “Get up and fight, you bum!”

http://time.com/4357436/muhammad-ali-dead-sonny-liston-fight-photo/
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June 5, 2016 2:01pm
Jack5

A great boxer, but as a man there were contradictions.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11650822
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June 5, 2016 2:03pm
cha

There is the famous photo of Ali standing over Liston

More photos by Neil Leifer.
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June 5, 2016 2:18pm
tom hunter

I have only one memory of an Ali fight. The famous one against Foreman. My Dad had loved Muhammad Ali from the early 60’s, unusual given that Dad had little time for blowhards. But I think he sensed that with Ali this all came with a wink.

In any case, Dad arrived at our little country primary school while I was on the playground in early afternoon. A bright Spring day. It was well before school was over, I know that. To this day I don’t know if he even checked with the head teacher. Such were the days. There were more important things than school.

Only due to Dad did I know what was going on – like most kids that age I paid no attention to newspapers, magazines or TV beyond cartoons (and back then, Thunderbirds). He told me how unlikely it was that Ali would win. How he’d lost some of his speed and skills over ten years. How powerful Foreman was in punching. How he’d destroyed two guys that had given Ali a terribly tough time in the ring. “But he’s got brains, and that may make the difference”. Even my Mum, no fan of the sport (or most sport it seemed) was riveted to the screen. That was what Muhammed Ali meant in those days.

Thus began two hours or so that I will never forget. We agonised over each round, never more so than when Ali went into his famous “rope-a-dope” routine. What the hell was he doing wondered my father aloud?. With all his skills, including footwork, why the hell was he exposing himself to such a battering. Only slowly did it become clear – so slowly that you had to watch every second, every flinch and counter-jab to feel the momentum changing. And then that incredible moment where you could see Foreman tiring, where Cosell was yelling more than any commentator has a right to, where Ali unloaded that combination of punches and watched Foreman swing around him, as if trying to hold on to a tree trunk to stop from falling all the way.

We lept in the air and cheered our brains out for the man as the ring was flooded with people and TV cameras. Insanity.

I have no recollecton of either of the great fights against Frasier. Too young for the first in 1971 (and probably no TV coverage anyway in those pre-satellite days), but I don’t know what happened to the second that results in me having no memory of it. And of course I took little notice of the 1978 loss and then the win against Spinks in ’78, let alone the loss to Holmes in 1980. We all knew that Ali had peaked years earlier and that there were only so many comebacks even The Greatest could make. And I did not know of things such as his treament of women or his grossly nasty, unfair taunting of Frazier, who I’ve no doubt was a better man. And in those long-ago days being a Muslim meant nothing to me.

But that 1974 contest, my Dad’s determination that I should be with him to watch history – well that’s a bright, golden memory.
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June 5, 2016 2:33pm
Kimbo

@ tom hunter

Thus began two hours or so that I will never forget. We agonised over each round, never more so than when Ali went into his famous “rope-a-dope” routine. What the hell was he doing wondered my father aloud?. With all his skills, including footwork, why the hell was he exposing himself to such a battering. Only slowly did it become clear – so slowly that you had to watch every second, every flinch and counter-jab to feel the momentum changing. And then that incredible moment where you could see Foreman tiring, where Cosell was yelling more than any commentator has a right to, where Ali unloaded that combination of punches and watched Foreman swing around him, as if trying to hold on to a tree trunk to stop from falling all the way.

Yep. I can remember both – because they were fought in exotic locations (Zaire and the Philippines) they scheduled them for prime time TV in the US, which meant about 4pm in New Zealand.

Of all the great Ali lines that came out over that fight against Foreman, many of them years after the event courtesy of 1997’s “When we were kings”, there was one that as not recorded in that documentary. Near the end of the third round, when Foreman was starting to slow down and breath heavily Ali whispered in his ear, “George, there are 12 more rounds to go you is starting to get tired…and this ain’t no place to get tired!”

For a great counter-balance to the hero adulation of Ali, the documentary “the Thrilla in Manila”, made in 2008 from Frazier’s perspective when he was still alive is equally brilliant

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1330059/

…and a few years ago I read this book on the same fight and thoroughly recommend it. Of all the crap things Ali – and Angelo Dundee – did, probably denying Frazier his professional dues and respect after he deservedly won their first fight was the worst…

@ tom hunter

Thus began two hours or so that I will never forget. We agonised over each round, never more so than when Ali went into his famous “rope-a-dope” routine. What the hell was he doing wondered my father aloud?. With all his skills, including footwork, why the hell was he exposing himself to such a battering. Only slowly did it become clear – so slowly that you had to watch every second, every flinch and counter-jab to feel the momentum changing. And then that incredible moment where you could see Foreman tiring, where Cosell was yelling more than any commentator has a right to, where Ali unloaded that combination of punches and watched Foreman swing around him, as if trying to hold on to a tree trunk to stop from falling all the way.

Yep. I can remember both – because they were fought in exotic locations (Zaire and the Philippines) they scheduled them for prime time TV in the US, which meant about 4pm in New Zealand.

Of all the great Ali lines that came out over that fight against Foreman, many of them years after the event courtesy of 1997’s “When we were kings”, there was one that as not recorded in that documentary. Near the end of the third round, when Foreman was starting to slow down and breath heavily Ali whispered in his ear, “George, there are 12 more rounds to go you is starting to get tired…and this ain’t no place to get tired!”

For a great counter-balance to the hero adulation of Ali, the documentary “the Thrilla in Manila”, made in 2008 from Frazier’s perspective when he was still alive is equally brilliant

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1330059/

…and a few years ago I read this book on the same fight and thoroughly recommend it.

http://www.amazon.com/Ghosts-Manila-Fateful-Between-Muhammad/dp/0060954809

Of all the crap things Ali – and Angelo Dundee – did, probably denying Frazier his professional dues and respect after he deservedly won their first fight was the worst…
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June 5, 2016 3:11pm
Fentex

Kimbo; some of his lines such as, “No Viet Cong ever called me ‘nigger’” were fed to him by the Black Muslims.

I read that this isn’t a quote – according to Kevin Drum it’s a conflation of two quotes…

In February 1966, Muhammad Ali said:

I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong.

In February 1966, Muhammad Ali said:

I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong.

In March 1967 he said:

My conscience won’t let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn’t put no dogs on me, they didn’t rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father.

In popular culture, this has become:

I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong…They never called me nigger.
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June 5, 2016 4:42pm
Scott Chris

My only memory of an Ali fight was some time in the 1970s. He was up against George Foreman and from what I remember for the few rounds I watched, Ali was up against the ropes covering up. He eventually won the fight I subsequently learned.

For so many boxing aficionados to proclaim him the greatest I have to defer to their better judgement. I can’t score boxing for shit.

Condolences to those who saw him as a hero.
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June 5, 2016 4:43pm
Kimbo

@ Fentex

I read that this isn’t a quote – according to Kevin Drum it’s a conflation of two quotes…

In popular culture, this has become:

I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong…They never called me nigger.

But according to journalist Sunni Khalid in the Thrilla documentary, this quip wasn’t original to Ali. Abdul Rahaman of the Nation of Islam purportedly gave him that pun.

http://www.nation.co.ke/lifestyle/weekend/sportsman-becomes-a-cultural-icon-Muhammad-Ali-story/-/1220/3035698/-/f0gj8b/-/index.html

…and also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axk9GmCPSlQ

…although Ali’s account at the end of having spoken at a KKK rally (because like the Nation of Islam, they believed in racial separation) and their joke afterwards “we got the nigger, string him up!…just kidding, champ!” is surely a typical tall story in which Ali specialised.
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June 5, 2016 4:55pm
cha

The Rumble in the Jungle – the entire fight and interviews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55AasOJZzDE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rumble_in_the_Jungle
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June 5, 2016 5:04pm
Scott Chris

Fentex (2,995 comments) says:
June 5th, 2016 at 4:42 pm

In popular culture, this has become:

I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong…They never called me nigger.

Not sure that I’d want to be remembered for that. Every society has its niggers.
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June 5, 2016 5:13pm
stephieboy

It’s worth recalling that Muhammad Ali was scathing of Trump when he proposed stopping Muslims coming into the country ,

“Our political leaders should use their position to bring understanding about the religion of Islam,” Ali wrote, “and clarify that these misguided murderers have perverted people’s views on what Islam really is.”

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/muhammad-ali-donald-trumps-muslim-ban-proposal/story?id=39607728
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June 5, 2016 6:12pm
RRM

Any black american who lived through the 1950s and 60s experienced his own country actively keeping him down, gets a free pass to be bitter and twisted about race issues. IMO.
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June 5, 2016 6:30pm
stephieboy

RRM , under the circumstances I always thought that Muhammed Ali was rather magnanimous on issues of race and did not allow it to embitter him.

I believe he tried to advance himself as a good role model to his fellow African Americans and to the world ! I have always wondered what it was like to grow up , like him, with racial taunts and abuse !
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June 5, 2016 6:49pm
Fentex

Kimbo; But according to journalist Sunni Khalid in the Thrilla documentary, this quip wasn’t original to Ali.

Er, if he didn’t say it it surely wasn’t original with him. None of those links refer to any demonstration or recounting of him saying it so it means little someone claims he was fed something he didn’t say.

But besides which so what if Ali, a famous person speaking to a cause, may have cooperated with political allies to prepare speaking points and phrases? He was politically engaged, why wouldn’t he invite contributions from allies for thoughts to put forward? How is that something to condemn him for?

Most famous political speech has been carefully crafted before being expressed.
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June 5, 2016 6:50pm
cha

In his own words –

My conscience won’t let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn’t put no dogs on me, they didn’t rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father. … Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail

https://youtu.be/vd9aIamXjQI
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June 5, 2016 7:06pm
Scott Chris

Point taken Cha. Thanks.
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June 5, 2016 7:13pm
Kimbo

@ Fentex

Most famous political speech has been carefully crafted before being expressed.

Indeed, Fentex, and sorry for not making my intent clear – I was seeking to add depth and background to your post at 4:42, rather than contradict it. Hence my uptick of your post at the time.

Cheers,

Kimbo
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June 5, 2016 7:49pm
Left Right and Centre

Nah – the greatest muslim convert professional boxer of all time is Sonny Bill Williams . . .

hahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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June 7, 2016 12:28am

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The Daily Blog
The Partition: Ireland Divided 1885 to 1925 by Charles Townshend (2021)
Utopia
Time to tax the rich
No Right Turn
Media Link: “A View from Afar” on Systemic Change.
Kiwipolitico
Alex Berenson on Fatherhood Manifesto, Marijuana & Biden’s COVID
Bob McCoskrie's McBlog
People Power
NZCPR
Levies as end-runs around the Generic Tax Policy Process
Offsetting Behaviour
A central banker’s fiction
Croaking Cassandra
THE WORKING FROM HOME RACKET BY PUBLIC SERVANTS
No Punches Pulled (Bob Jones)
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Get Vaccinated Tomorrow Or Shut Your Pie Hole
Cactus Kate
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker

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