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April 14, 2020 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 14 April 2020

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General Debate

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cmm

This might seem like splitting hairs, but Covid-19 is not a virus.

The virus is called SARS-CoV-2 (previously novel Coronavirus).

Covid-19 is the name of the disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus. There is a big difference.

Some aspects of the disease are potentially bacterial and respond to antibiotics.

When you’re treating a patient, you treat the disease. You are not just fighting the virus. You need to tackle all aspects of the disease. Hence, Covid-19 patents may need antibiotics to treat the Covid-19 disease.

Treating a disease like Covid-19 needs a two-pronged strategy of simultaneously:
1) Fighting the virus to reduce the viral load. This does not respond to antibiotics.
2) Fighting the disease itself (which is different from the virus). This might need antibiotics

The controversial hydroxychloroquine treatment also uses azithromycin, which is an antibiotic.
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April 14, 2020 8:04am
- PhilBest
  
  Even more important to note: it is the combination of infections that obviously makes the difference between people ending up dead, or only mildly ill or not even having symptoms at all.
  
  Hence even most elderly remaining asymptomatic, and a 107 year old recovering from actual illness.
  
  Further implication: the environment in which the clusters occurred was most likely optimum for survival and transmission of multiple infections at the same time. It’s not just that someone was there with “the” Coronavirus: one or more persons must have been there with other sniffles and lurgies.
  
  There are implications too that HEVAC experts need to be involved in; potentially, how might environments where there are gatherings eg in a restaurant, be controlled at a humidity level that in combination with the temperature, minimises viruses survival?
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:19am
  - BobbyS
    
    Very true. The answer is
    “building regulations should specify a minimum indoor humidity level for health and the benefits of maintaining 40-60%RH
    Maintaining IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) at above 40%RH has been scientifically shown to reduce viral cross infection”
    
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    April 14, 2020 8:58am
    - PhilBest
      
      Great, there are people onto it!
      
      And can someone please explain the mentality behind downticking what I had to say? I’ve re-read it, wondering what I said that is at all controversial or unhelpful.
      
      I suspect that this is like people who recommend forest management to reduce fire risk getting condemned as “deniers” because shutting down fossil fuels is the “approved” approach; practical suggestions for understanding pandemic control other than Communism NOW! are the last thing a certain kind of person wants.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:31am
      - Biscuit
        
        Phil, think of it as you performing a Community Service for the Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered.
        
        Every downtick they give your (sane) posts is a minute less that they’ve had to go yell at their family, kick their cat, lick the windows…
        
        Downticking Brigade, how difficult IS it for you to formulate a thought or three as to why you downticked?
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:47am
      - Michael NZ
        
        Phil
        I think it would be best if all votes are searchable like on FB.
        Come on DPF how about it?
        
        I have no problem standing by my votes Up or Down.
        
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        April 14, 2020 12:26pm
  - cmm
    
    Yup, we are all covered inside and out by potentially harmful bacteria all the time: 24/7.
    
    Most of us do not get sick most of the time because we are able to stave them off. However, when our immune system becomes weakened and overwhelmed they charge in.
    
    They are cowards. Once one has got you down, others charge in and put their boot in too. Single infections are rare.
    
    How hard you fall is dependent on viral load. One person coughs vaguely near you and you pick up a small load which your immune system will beat with ease. However, sit next to a sick person for hours and you pick up a larger load. That’s going to be harder for the immune system to beat.
    
    Old age homes are relatively confined and full of frail people. No wonder they become clusters.
    
    Places like greater NYC too: ten+ million people living cheap by jowl taking over 10 million cab, bus and subway rides each day. That’s virus paradise.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:12am
    - JackRabbit
      
      And air quality in smaller old age homes is not that flash. Wall mounted air conditioners recycling the same air, very little fresh air, nice and warm. Virtual Petri dish.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:33am
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        We in older homes generally just open the bleeding windows
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:30am
      - JackRabbit
        
        @NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Very true.
        
        There are many documented cases of businesses moving out of old brick and timber offices into modern air conditioned offices and the incidents of staff being sick or suffering general malaise rising exponentially.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:04am
    - PhilBest
      
      I also think it is now obvious that the pandemic epicentres like Northern Italy, NYC and Spain, had another factor on top of the density and the environment. That is, they not only “didn’t take the threat seriously enough” to start with, they “went full retard” telling everyone to carry on as normal and even please turn out in record numbers for public events, culture, dining, shopping etc; to “make a statement against the xenophobes trying to exploit this threat”. Even Nancy Pelosi did a televised publicity stunt visiting Chinatown NYC.
      
      It’s not just the carnivals, concerts etc, it’s the packed bars and restaurants afterwards.
      
      Every country and region where the figures seem not too bad regardless of when a lockdown was imposed, people were just “being sensible” from early enough.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:36am
      - Mummy
        
        Since when has an Italian ever listened to their government?
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:05pm
    - rangitoto
      
      The right combo of gut bacteria is actually essential for health.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:53am
      - artemisia
        
        Agree about gut bacteria. There is an innovative New Zealand company doing just this – Blis Technologies in Dunedin.
        
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        April 15, 2020 8:30am
    - curry4me
      
      cmm: People in NY are stuck with using the subway to get to work. If everyone owned a car, there would be nowhere enough parking spaces.
      
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      April 14, 2020 12:36pm
      - cmm
        
        Yup, but nobody forced them to build a city of 11 million people.
        
        If they build cities like this then they must understand they are have such huge dependence on the subways and huge problems if there are virus pandemics, terror attacks etc.
        
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        April 14, 2020 2:41pm
    - Mr_Blobby
      
      Yet we have a fleet of very expensive buses and trains running around empty.
      
      Virtual virus boxes.
      
      Supposedly an essential service.
      
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      April 14, 2020 1:05pm
  - Colville
    
    How much of the AC plant in NZ has humidity control tho?
    Vast majority of offices are just stand alone splits on a central controller… you cant even get a worthwhile level of filtration with that low level gear.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:38am
    - rightoverlabour
      
      and schools? Highest density of people per square metre probably over all. Very few classrooms have any kind of AC.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:15am
    - BobbyS
      
      Very few Colville
      Humidification is generally used to control IAQ for sensitive environments like: Museums, important Electrical equipment, food manufacturing, sterile environments etc
      However NZ is lucky cause we generally have moderate humidity levels all year round. But controlling humidity is all round best HVAC practice
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:58am
- Chuck Bird
  
  In other words Trump is not stupid.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:26am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    What Trump actually said was fucked with by an aussie hack, then repeated by someone at the herald with TDS
    
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    April 14, 2020 8:30am
    - kowtow
      
      Two “news” items on TV3 AM show were Trump related , and the last “news” item was advertising for one of their own tv shows ……
      
      And they’re listed as “essential” workers ?
      
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      April 14, 2020 8:46am
      - RW Capitalist
        
        and
        reporters are still taking cameramen to deserted locations (beaches, stadiums etc) to tell us all about “lock down”.
        No self awareness what so ever.
        
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        April 14, 2020 9:12am
      - JackRabbit
        
        @RW Capitalist
        
        “I’ve been leaning on my shovel watching that group of people over there continuously for the last four hours, and they don’t do any work, they just stand there leaning on their shovels watching another group of people.”
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:02pm
    - Vory v zakone
      
      [Deleted – quit the abusive comments. Mod]
      
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      April 14, 2020 8:50am
  - dai
    
    He has said other things.
    
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    April 14, 2020 8:32am
    - carl wiekart
      
      The Broken Pencil award is all yours sir, the most pointless statement on the internet today ?
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:05am
  - cmm
    
    I think what Trump said was that the virus could outsmart antibiotics.
    
    I think there are two ways to interpret “outsmart”:
    
    1) The way DPF and I suspect the MSM did: that this meant the virus itself could dodge antibiotics.
    
    2) That the virus could outsmart antibiotics by making a disease that could not be treated by antibiotics.
    
    Huge difference.
    
    For example, the flu viruses themselves do not respond to antibiotics, but they often lead to pneumonia which will often respond to antibiotics. If a flu lead to a disease that did not respond to antibiotics they you could say it outsmarted it.
    
    Quite likely what Trump said was likely intended to be (2) rather than (1), even if he got his wording a bit wrong.
    
    If people really want to pick at the accuracy of the use of “outsmart” then they should pick on this: “outsmart”t implies that the virus can think. Clearly it cannot and can’t outsmart anything.
    
    However, we commonly use anthropomorphisms like this in everyday speech, so we can roll with the use of outsmart.
    
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    April 14, 2020 8:58am
    - WaveyDavey
      
      antibiotics are useless for viral pneumonia
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:09am
      - cmm
        
        Possibly.
        It depends on what else is, or might also, be going on.
        If you have viral pneumonia then, yes, those virus types themselves will not respond to the antibiotics.
        However you might still get antibiotics to:
        1) To prevent bacterial infections also developing and making things worse. Such prophylactic use of antibiotics is common.
        2) To suppress other current infections that might be going on and allow your body to focus on fighting the virus.
        
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        April 14, 2020 9:23am
      - Critical Thinker
        
        “Pneumonia is usually treated with antibiotics, even if VIRAL PNEUMONIA is suspected as there may be a degree of bacterial infection as well. The type of antibiotic used and the way it is given will be determined by the severity and cause of the pneumonia.”
        https://www.southerncross.co.nz/group/medical-library/pneumonia-causes-symptoms-treatment
        
        [Mod note for context in this discussion, from the WHO:
        
        “No. Antibiotics do not work against viruses, they only work on bacterial infections. COVID-19 is caused by a virus, so antibiotics do not work. Antibiotics should not be used as a means of prevention or treatment of COVID-19. They should only be used as directed by a physician to treat a bacterial infection.”
        
        https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-coronaviruses#:~:text=treatment ]
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:46am
      - Critical Thinker
        
        @mod
        Firstly, no one should give a hoot about what the incredibly corrupt Chinese Health Organisation (WHO) has to say about COVID-19.
        
        Yes antibiotics do not work against viruses. But as you can see, according to our very own NZ health experts, antibiotics can help a patient with viral pneumonia, if there’s also a degree of bacterial infection as well. As it will help clear up the bacterial infection. Leaving only the viral pneumonia to contend with.
        
        “Viral pneumonia is a common complication of influenza-like illnesses and is a complication of SARS-COV-2. Viral pneumonia may clear up on its own; however, when severe, it can be life-threatening. However, as well as being a primary pathogen, viruses can be a co-pathogen with bacteria, particularly in those with severe illness requiring admission to ICU and in ventilator-associated pneumonia.”
        https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/differentiating-viral-from-bacterial-pneumonia/
        
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        April 14, 2020 2:10pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      Bacteriophages, which are a virus, are clever at outsmarting bacteria.
      
      So it makes sense that Coronavirus as part of the Virus genus, is also able to outsmart.
      
      https://www.otago.ac.nz/news/news/otago729597.html
      
      Since viruses create and replicate entirely using the material from the host cells, they operate almost like intelligent nanites, so they obviously have a degree of intelligence.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:11am
      - rangitoto
        
        No intelligence. It is just an example of natural selection acting on genetic mutation.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:03am
      - Fletch
        
        Before antibiotics, they used to use bacteriophages to treat illness, particularly in the Ukraine etc. We may have to go back to that.
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG6dnOligeM
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:22am
      - JackRabbit
        
        @rangitoto
        
        Natural Selection created by a self organising entity, with either a dynamic intelligent framework or a static logic framework created by a higher intelligence.
        
        Viruses per se, look more like cellular nanites created by some ancient civilisation to guard against threats and bacteria encountered when the planet was first settled. There are hundreds of thousands of different types and they are self programmed in that they evolve. What do you think the mechanism that actually causes genetic mutation? If it was random then some people would have 7 legs, 3 breasts, 16 ears, and forked tails. But no, apart from colour, humans, and pretty much all animals are produced in one consistent variety.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:57am
      - JackRabbit
        
        @Fletch
        
        Perhaps the prior habit of playing “god” with bacteriophages and experimenting using bacteriophages from animals is part of the problem we now face?
        
        Search google for “wuhan bacteriophages”
        
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        April 14, 2020 12:00pm
    - SGA
      
      Quite likely what Trump said was likely intended to be (2) rather than (1), even if he got his wording a bit wrong.
      
      I’m sorry, cmm, I think that you are clutching at straws. Watching Trump speak so poorly about such issues, I think you are attributing him an exaggerated level of medical sophistication.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:36am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        But Trump’s uncle was a professor at MIT. Stable geniusness runs in the family. Checkmate Libs!
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:29am
      - JackRabbit
        
        @mikenmildagain
        
        “Stable geniusness”
        
        Clever at managing farms and stables?
        
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        April 14, 2020 12:18pm
    - thirteenstars
      
      “The way DPF and I suspect the MSM did…”
      
      You repeat yourself.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:46am
    - Classic Liberal
      
      Cmm, yes, closer to #2: He never said that this particular virus had previously been treated by antibiotics. He said “the germ” i.e. disease-causing microbes overall had become too brilliant to be treated by antibiotics. Clumsy wording, but not incorrect.
      
      Anyway, even if he did make a mistake instead of just using clumsy wording, he is not stupid and he will win the next election.
      
      And all the people so convinced that he is stupid will have a few more years to hate a robust US economic recovery, controlled Mexican border and no f*ing wars.
      
      While we can enjoy the demise of small businesses, Mum and Dad landlording and our increasing slide towards Taxinda’s beloved Socialism.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:03am
    - theoldbloke
      
      Oh dear dear dear.
      Look at the actual video containing what Trump said then you dont have to “think” what he said.
      
      Dont confuse the CoronnoVirus and Covid19. They are not the same 🙂
      
      Just like HIV is not AIDS.
      
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      April 14, 2020 1:55pm
    - The Right One
      
      So, it wasn’t Trump who was stupid then?
      
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      April 14, 2020 3:14pm
- Scott
  
  I’d be interested to know if our health authorities have looked at hydrox.. to see whether it works here? Could it be used for patients in intensive care for instance? We have 5-6 of them now.
  
  There just seem such good reports from physicians that have used it to treat their patients successfully.
  
  I hope the reluctance is not another case of “orange man bad”?
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:31am
  - RW Capitalist
    
    After their complete screw up, re keeping a country safe, which was separated from this disease by over 1000Km of ocean.
    I personally have gone to the americans and said “we’ll do your trial, send 500000 doses (at your expence. We’ll soon see if it works”.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:17am
  - Jules99
    
    Apparently there is a study that has been approved, but they have not recruited any subjects yet. The article didn’t say why – maybe they don’t have enough cases of people who are seriously ill.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:58am
  - Critical Thinker
    
    Unfortunately our flailing health authorities have ruled out the very promising Hydroxychloroquine drug ?
    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/dr-ashley-bloomfield-rules-using-trump-backed-drug-hydroxychloroquine-covid-19-cure
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:53am
    - Batman
      
      “very promising” is not factual outside of anecdotal stories.
      
      It is unproven and can cause death in some cases.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:59am
      - RW Capitalist
        
        “It is unproven and can cause death in some cases.”
        What utter bull shit
        It has been proven SAFE since 1955.
        Side effects are minor and only are seen in large doses (2x that recommended here) and for LONG periods of time (10 years) recommended here 2 week.
        
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        April 14, 2020 12:42pm
  - Michael NZ
    
    Scott
    The French doctor said for those in the beginning or middle of their event.
    
    Not the end.
    
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    April 14, 2020 12:31pm
- Don Beckett
  
  So Trump may not have been so stupid after all in what he said.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:35am
- thirteenstars
  
  The analogy is with HIV and AIDS. You can have HIV, the virus, for a considerable period, infecting others yet being asymptomatic, then the virus switches on and AIDS, which is just the catchall term for the disease, and is in fact a raft of pathologies, cancers, pneumonia, on and on, is what actually kills you.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:54am
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  Bro – Jacinda knows best.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:58am
- Phronesis
  
  The use of azithromycin has nothing to do with any potential bacterial co-infections. Like nearly all drugs antibiotics have multiple effects beyond those that they are normally prescribed for. These “side effects” are increasingly being recognised as potential therapeutic effects. Azithromycin happens to have interesting effects on lysosomal function which are useful in the treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection.
  
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  April 14, 2020 12:55pm
Steve James

It looks like the stats for Covid-19 recoveries in Democrat run US cities were held back. I wonder why. They are out as of Sunday night NZ time.
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April 14, 2020 8:07am
- Steve James
  
  Addendum:
  Recoveries at 30 March, 151,991 to rise by about 21% daily to 404,372 on April 12.
  Recoveries April 13 = 2,805,892 (+151%)
  The dems got their money, their MSM profile and managed to neg-out the population. Of course they blame the duly elected President. Twats!
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:46am
Cunningham

It feels like the narrative is starting to change and people are questioning why we have gone for such an extreme lock down. I can’t help but wonder whether this government has made a terrible mistake and we are going to find ourselves in a dire situation for many years to come. Guess we will know in 6 months
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April 14, 2020 8:07am
- amospicton
  
  Seemed to me the PM was preparing us for longer in level 4 in her media appearances this morning. Her friendly modeller, bogus public opinion surveys and the spin that defeating the virus is the best thing for the economy all support that notion.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:42am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    If they had properly controlled quarantine from the start of the lockdown it could reliably have been over within 3 weeks. (Of course, if they had brought in proper quarantine much earlier, we might have avoided the lockdown altogether).
    
    But no, this government is authoritarian towards the whole population but for two weeks was soft and sloppy with arrivals needing a proper quarantine (self-isolation is incredibly difficult when living with other people).
    
    Just as they want to tax and limit the whole population with tighter and tighter laws, but are soft and sloppy towards dangerous criminals. (Obviously I’m not calling people having trouble with self-isolation criminals).
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:18am
- krazykiwi
  
  We know now. Ardern’s incompetent leadership is devastating our country. To be fair I don’t know too many people who could lead us though this. Most who couldn’t would have the integrity and self awareness to call for help.
  
  But not Ardern, which is to be expected from someone who ignored her top science advisors, but then takes action based of what a friend reports as going on. In a different country. In a different city. With different a demographic. With different public health issues.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:00am
  - JackRabbit
    
    She is not a leader, she cannot manage. Imagine her managing your local McDonalds franschise. Absolute unmitigated chaos.
    
    Luckily McDonalds have fail safes in place – You start at the bottom, even if you want to buy a franchise, you start at the bottom. I doubt she would even be hired in the first place. A one day trial on the counter and she would be out the door.
    
    She appears unable to actually think logically – her head is too full of indoctrination. If she was on one of those IQ shows, she would be constantly phoning a friend. There are probably viruses that are smarter than her.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:45am
    - igm
      
      No she could not do that. She cannot use a cash register and cannot process Eftpos. In the fish and chip shop she merely handed out the paid for and cooked orders, being unable to perform any other tasks.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:10am
      - JackRabbit
        
        So less capability than someone with Downs Syndrome.
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:21am
    - Classic Liberal
      
      Hm, I think this is going a bit far. She is not stupid, though definitely ignoring small business needs.
      
      But she sees everything from the socialist perspective and has no respect for the hard-working foundation of our economy: the small business . People who aspire to build and own something are considered evil by socialists: everything should be either owned by government, or by large corporations that government have easy view of and control over.
      
      The way supermarkets have been allowed to take all the business from greengrocers and butchers shows this. Nothing to do with safety: you’d be much safer in a one-in-one-out butcher’s shop than in a busy supermarket.
      
      Clearly this government want small businesses to fail. Ask yourself why.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:32am
      - Batman
        
        You’re giving them far too much credit. They’re just useless.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:46am
      - JackRabbit
        
        Classic Liberal, I like most of your posts but really:
        
        “She is not stupid, though definitely ignoring small business needs.”
        
        Small businesses are the backbone of the country and a lot of jobs depend on them. Ignoring the obvious is stupid. She has no empathy, no intelligence, just ingrained socialist idealist claptrap combined with a fetish for totalitarian control because “people” need to be forced into socialism because the “people” are too dumb to “get it”.
        
        Like all totalitarians, they exempt themselves from the controls they place on others, and like all socialists are selfish and uncharitable with their own money, while preaching charity and togetherness to others. And they cling precariously to any piece of power or wealth they get their hands on, while abusing every privilege they have access to.
        
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        April 14, 2020 12:37pm
      - Classic Liberal
        
        Ah well, she did memorise the Internationale…
        
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        April 14, 2020 2:47pm
      - david
        
        Quite clearly if it is not incompetence, it is deliberate. So the answer is clear, what is the question?
        
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        April 14, 2020 7:37pm
  - BobbyS
    
    For what its worth there have been a few posts doing the round claiming “some of the best performers in the world, against the virus, are Female leaders. This includes NZ, Germany, Belgium, Finland, Iceland and Denmark
    
    Didn;t take me more than 10mins to run the stats are point out Germany, Belgium & Iceland have Death rates per 1m population HIGHER than the world average.
    Plus Germany, Belgium, Iceland & Denmark all have infection rates HIGHER than the world average.
    
    So another BS fake news / post which is about identity politics again. Please dispell this stupid myth as often as possible
    
    A great leader can be either Male OR Female, its what’s between the ears that counts NOT whats between the legs!!!!!
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:06am
- SGA
  
  If you wind Kiwiblog back one month, when Coronavirus was sweeping through Italy and into Spain, there were plenty here calling for even more immediate (and possibly more extreme) action than transpired.
  This game is far from over, we are probably still in the first half. It may be that we went harder than necessary, or it might prove that we can get back some degree of normalcy earlier than other countries (e.g., France has just extended its lockdown into May). It might turn out that Australia’s somewhat less stringent measures would have been enough, or it might turn out that they have to hold those a few weeks longer than we will. At this point, we just don’t know. It is easy being an “armchair quarterback” operating with the benefit of hindsight.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:02am
  - Cunningham
    
    I agree re hind site, initially I was supportive of this lock down but now with data coming out about this and the way other countries are handling it compared to us (AU for example) I am not so sure. I just look at the amount of money being spent, the number of people missing out on surgery while our hospital beds are empty, the horrendous impact this will have on our businesses, the job losses etc and I just wonder if we will look back and regret the path we have chosen.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:19am
    - SGA
      
      other countries are handling it compared to us (AU for example)
      
      Actually, compared to a lot of countries, we are looking pretty good. It may prove that Australia got the balance a little better than us, but it may also prove that we get to a better level quicker than them (swings and roundabouts). At this point, we just don’t know.
      
      Whatever the case, the world situation is going to stuff up our economy in a big way no matter what.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:30am
    - DeepBlue
      
      I would like to see day patient or overnight surgery stays return to hospitals. It seems we have a window were we could pump a lot of procedures through on the basis that we are prepared to holt the surgery/ appointments to clear beds and make way for any future wave of flu patients within say 3 days. It could be July before we need those beds.
      
      There could be a lot of video consults going on too. This remote working might help triage people faster in the future. My Mum has just had a nasty skin lesion diagnosed by photo/phone consult by her GP. She has previously had melanoma.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:41am
      - SGA
        
        I would like to see day patient or overnight surgery stays return to hospitals.
        
        On the other hand, hospitals probably rank second to rest homes as a place you want to risk an outbreak?
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:06am
      - DeepBlue
        
        @SGA… ‘probably’ guestimating isn’t good enough.
        
        Nowhere have hospitals said they are shutting down to prevent disease spread. It’s all been about freeing up space and preparing for Covid19 patients. I’m not talking about waiting rooms full of people or no additional safety precautions.
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:18am
      - rangitoto
        
        A doctor I know is doing as many consultations as possible via video conference with his patients.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:07am
      - SGA
        
        Nowhere have hospitals said they are shutting down to prevent disease spread.
        
        I’m not sure what you mean? Hospitals have been actively screening people going in, and keeping unnecessary people out, for some time now. You may remember the brouhaha about women having babies not having their usual support. A friend of mine is working in a cancer ward, and they were effectively locked down (no visitors) some time before the rest of us.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:08am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      ‘hind site’ – is that a back passage reference?
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:31am
  - kowtow
    
    normality
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:33am
    - SGA
      
      True 🙂
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:52am
    - Paulus
      
      Nothing will be “normal” again – the world has changed – New Zealand is not immune !
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:43am
  - PhilBest
    
    The assumption that argument rests on, is that NZ somehow had carriers of the virus arriving here weeks later than everywhere else? Come ON. Auckland airport is a sea of Chinese arrivals several times a week. Some of us always did say that we obviously were a lucky country on this, based on the simple reality that the virus HAS to have been carried here at least as early as it went everywhere else. If it was going to hit us hard, it would have hit us hard, and there is absolutely nothing our preening PM and health officials could have done about it.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:42am
    - Brian McDonald
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      It didn’t hit us hard because we went into lockdown, try to work it out.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:35am
      - The Proper Ghandi
        
        “It didn’t hit us hard because we went into lockdown, try to work it out.”
        
        That is not self-evident at all. We would need a control – i.e. essentially all of the same conditions, except the lockdown measure in question – to establish causation, rather than correlation.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:45am
      - lifesgood
        
        Brian, that is rot. We had zero cases when the rest of the world was falling over and what did we do? We allowed plane load after plane load of people to arrive unchecked and multiple cruise ships to disgorge passengers for sight seeing. The way this has been handled by the govt is a disgrace. We all know why and to say we went “early and fast” is a straight out lie.
        
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        April 14, 2020 12:03pm
      - PhilBest
        
        Brian McDonald:
        
        This CAN be common knowledge, not merely the preserve of experts:
        
        https://coronavirus.medium.com/how-long-does-coronavirus-last-6a6d436abccf
        
        I had a rough idea of what that article is saying. About a week for symptoms to show (if they’re going to), about another 2 weeks to actually die (if you’re going to).
        
        Bottom line: the rate of deaths from COVID-19 AS FROM ABOUT NOW, will represent the effectiveness of the lockdown. NOT “as from the precise instant the lockdown was enacted”.
        
        The very low rate of deaths we have as of NOW, tells us roughly what our “base line” risk was with sensible voluntary precautions taken. The falling rate of infections now can be at least partly attributed to the lockdown; but whether the lockdown was as vital as claimed, also rests on how seriously infected these people are. We’ve never had more than 14 people actually needing to go into hospital, and most of them have survived without even going into ICU. Nowhere near as bad as a normal flu season.
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:48pm
    - septic skeptic
      
      The virus was mostly contained in Wuhan. Our infections have come mostly from Iran, Europe and USA.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:47am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Yep….
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:05am
  - Blackface Twin Reverb
    
    Its easy to be an armchair quarterback as you watch your financial future disappear down the drain, is it? GFY.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:56am
  - Alboy
    
    Just for info, there is no such thing as an armchair quarterback. Think you’ve mixed up your metaphors. The term, in reference to hind sight, is “Monday morning quarterback” Ie: after the game has been played. Just sayin’
    
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    April 14, 2020 3:12pm
- Simon
  
  “It feels like the narrative is starting to change and people are questioning”
  
  David Clark who has access to a lot more information than we plebs knew that Home Detention was bull shit.
  
  Clarky got into trouble for upsetting the narrative.
  
  Basically the Mong Princess destroyed the economy which will cause much more harm than the Wuhan virus ever could.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:08am
  - PhilBest
    
    I’ve made the suggestion more than once, that Clark is trying to send Kiwis a message about his own government’s bad faith. He’s not prepared to go “full hero” and break ranks, but he’s prepared to send signals and see what happens.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:44am
    - Brian McDonald
      
      Crystal balls, again.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:37am
    - Pete George
      
      Much more likely Clark just didn’t think the rules he and his Government made need apply to him.
      
      He seems to be one of the least able message senders in Government.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:39am
    - alloytoo
      
      More likely Clark is just really stupid with and attitude of entitlement.
      
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      April 14, 2020 12:14pm
- bruceavon
  
  Well as I said yesterday the lock down idea is not this governments alone, most of the world are following this path. And I think if we are going to do it we might as well go all out for elimination. The suppression plan means you could potentially go in and out of hard lock down forever. The other point is we would still be in lock down with National. Everything I heard them say indicates they would have been even more strict. But they have supported all of the governments moves. So we would be in mostly the same place with them
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:59am
- Jules99
  
  The mood will change even further when the official jobless stats come out. When will that be?
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:59am
- kloyd0306
  
  …..another Captain’s Call?
  Imagine living in Taranaki, losing the oil and gas business AND being under this total over reaction to a virus that nationally has 15 people in hospital and has assisted the death of five elderly folk who had underlying health issues.
  Meanwhile, Muslims have their own butchers while we have to queue up for poorer quality cuts from supermarkets enjoying a monopoly.
  Another Captain’s Call?
  Two ticks Blue!
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:04am
- gorse
  
  As long as we know by September.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:24am
Ruahine

Is there at last some sense being allowed to be expressed in the MSM. This whole exercise has been a piece of stupidity, no quarantine, and an abuse of power, no swimming, no surfing, no fishing unless you are the Deputy Prime Minister.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120984583/coronavirus-lockdown-rules-should-be-relaxed-health-experts-say
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April 14, 2020 8:09am
- SJ Actual
  
  Looks like pretty credible people have put the plan together. Seems they are changing their view as new evidence is available. I hope the government does likewise.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:27am
  - SGA
    
    Looks like pretty credible people have put the plan together.
    
    Any more credible than those alreadly advising the government?
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:19am
    - PhilBest
      
      Absolutely! When you have experts disagreeing with each other, you need lay people who have the logic, intuitions and common sense to detect who is talking BS. If you read Sir Bob Jones’ latest blog posting, linked to by someone else on this thread, you will see an outstanding example of an intelligent old man with an excellent BS detector. The fact that experts are breaking ranks now, is just confirmation to the laypeople with good BS detectors.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:47am
      - SGA
        
        No, I see no breaking of ranks. This seems to be a varied group of mixed experience in epidemiology (one definitely does though, a Senior Lecturer at Auckland) who never part of the “ranks” to begin with. I heard one on the radio this morning, and, tbh, he wasn’t very convincing.
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:13am
      - Classic Liberal
        
        Thornley? He wasn’t a skilled speaker, but I thought his points were valid.
        
        Science should be all about detecting new facts and adjusting theories and actions accordingly. I hope the scientists advising Taxinda don’t put protecting Labour’s decisions before considering new facts.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:45am
      - SGA
        
        Probably. Personally, I think it is too early to decide the relative effectiveness of AUS vs NZ strategies (which are much more alike than they are different, truth be told). That’s really going to be revealed over the next few weeks and how quickly and how far both countries can drop down levels. The interviewer asked something similar of Thornley when he mentioned Australia, and Thornley didn’t appear to have c0nsidered it (which I thought was odd).
        
        It’s a question of how you weight risk too. If we try to go back too quickly, then the four-week lockdown will have been a waste of time.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:58am
    - JackRabbit
      
      If you are employed by the government, especially a government hungry for unrestrained power, most people err on the side of caution by telling those in power what they are telling you to say.
      
      If those giving the medical advice had a strong sense of ethics they wouldn’t be working for the government in the first place. People with good ideas find working in such an environment oppressive.
      
      Who could work for Kiwibuild for example and still go home at night with their head held high with a sense of accomplishment?
      
      Who could work for the Ministry of Trees and feel good about themselves.
      
      WIFE: “Honey you look depressed, how was your day at work?”
      MAN: “Absolute crap.”
      WIFE: “Why what happened?”
      MAN: “JA committed NZ to planting 100m trees per year. So most people believe that an extra 100m trees per year will be planted. But post election, she has included as part of that total the 50m trees already being planted by private industry.”
      WIFE “That’s not honest. Have you taken this up with your superior?”
      MAN: “Yes, and he told me to keep my mouth shut. But that is not the worst part. The 50m planted every year by private industry, are replants to cover the 50m being felled annually.”
      WIFE: “WTF? So that means if JA reports only achieving 50% of the 100m per year, no extra trees have been planted and nothing has changed and they have actually achieved nothing? And she will still de seen as a hero for at least an extra 50m trees per year?”
      MAN: “Exactly. I feel like a fraud. I might go get a job at McDonalds. Where’s the Bourbon?. “
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:11am
    - Alboy
      
      Probably more credible than Jacindas mate in London, yeah.
      
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      April 14, 2020 3:18pm
  - Brian McDonald
    
    I read it to the point where it said hospitals have spare occupancy. Drrh we know that weeks were spent preparing for the worst and in the last couple of weeks hospitals have been reverting back because we are passed a potential peak point or spike in infections which were exactly the plan.
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:00am
    - Classic Liberal
      
      Right, so time for hospitals to get busy again with the vast backlog of examinations and elective surgery. Because it turns out that the Covid-19 potential peak point was not nearly as high as feared.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:50am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  The idea of going to level 4 for a short time wasn’t stupid because there was much less information then. We shouldn’t be too quick to criticise with the benefit of hindsight.
  
  But it is now clear the costs outweigh the benefits and we should go back to something like level 2, starting today if possible.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:35am
  - kowtow
    
    No , this government has a track record of rushed , ideologically driven decision making and having got away with that ( unquestioning media / few checks and balances in our constitution) the Star power that Ardern believes she has has most likely led to this latest over reaction.
    
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    April 14, 2020 8:52am
    - SGA
      
      This government is doing pretty much what most governments are doing around the world (e.g., Morrison’s Australia, Trump’s USA, Johnson’s UK). Sure there are differences, but they are largely variations on a theme.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:23am
      - PhilBest
        
        My problem with that, is the same as Sir Bob Jones’ problem with it. We pay experts to know their stuff, which has to include understanding “factors” that are relevant. Different countries, different factors for spread of viruses – this is health 101, not rocket science. Australia didn’t go as hard lockdown as us because they “got it” about this. Now Scott Morrison has had a bump in the polls.
        
        NZ is the world’s stupidest country on this. We were positioned to get off the most lightly of any country in the world. But we imposed the MOST destructive lockdown (according to the OECD). And the PM responsible for doing this rather than the opposite, has had a bump in the polls!
        
        OK, “we” deserve what we’re now gonna get. Some of us just wish we weren’t on the same ship of fools. Ultimately it might be preferable to be somewhere the environment isn’t so lucky, but the politics aren’t so full retard.
        
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        April 14, 2020 9:52am
      - SGA
        
        Let me guess, you got all this from your “hyper-logical” expert who confides in you? Sorry, Phil, at this stage I simply don’t have much confidence in many of your claims.
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:19am
      - JackRabbit
        
        @SGA
        
        Sorry, SGA, at this stage I simply don’t have much confidence in your claim of no confidence of PhilBest.
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:15pm
      - PhilBest
        
        SGA, possibly no-one has posted more links to more material from a wider range of experts, on KB in the last couple of weeks, than I have. I’m not just going by intuitions, I’m going by evidence. My communication with an expert in auditing models, was just one more piece of confirmation to me.
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:54pm
  - Brian McDonald
    
    I agree with your 1st point, but it’s not clear about the next steps because we have 2 weeks of info to come.
    Think of the dam busters, holding on until certain.
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:07am
    - JackRabbit
      
      Brian – really bad analogy to use Dam Busters.
      
      Is the point of view of those launching Bouncing Betty or the point of view as the people living downstream of the dam?
      
      The NZ public are not in control, so they are the ones living downstream of the dam. The idiot government are the ones with Bouncing Betty. The dam is the NZ economy.
      
      Hold on, yeah right. Kaboom!
      
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      April 14, 2020 1:34pm
  - freethinker
    
    With a large Moat surrounding NZ and most if not all identified cases traced to people arriving from abroad it was common sense to either close borders or quarantine which even at Govt expense will prove to have a cheaper and more effective result than the subsidies and long term damage to the NZ economy. Doing so now is a tacit admission by the Mong PM and she should be rewarded accordingly at the election.
    
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    April 14, 2020 1:00pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      You mean we could have stopped the economic bombs going off with a paperclip?
      
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      April 14, 2020 1:36pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  allowed to be expressed in the MSM
  
  There are treatments for that level of paranoia, you know.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:54am
  - Simon
    
    “There are treatments for that level of paranoia, you know”
    
    Yep its paranoid that caused the Mong Princess to close down NZ’s economy. After speaking to some other mong in London. Or was it the paranoid Wuhan virus modelling that did it.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:11am
    - Sacha
      
      I think that her advisers are the ones to blame. Ardern is just their mouthpiece.
      She hasn’t helped by being so voluble – why use 5 words when 200 will do?
      Sure, now she has a layman’s idea of what is going on, but that does not make her an expert, but like so many does not see the larger picture. Reading endless articles online does not an expert make.
      The lazy media do not help with their willingness to repeat any ‘facts’ that they see in Twitter et al.
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:48am
      - JackRabbit
        
        I think Ardern is as good as the last person she spoke with.
        
        If Aunty Helen told her to stop the lockdown she would.
        
        If Gayford said “To hell with the lockdown, I’m going Snapper fishing with the boys”, fishing would probably become an OK activity.
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:18pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I was referring to Ruahine’s paranoid suspicion that media messages are controlled. If you share that suspicion, you too should seek medical assistance.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:33am
      - Classic Liberal
        
        And yet it has been shown that journalists have a left-wing bias. In that regard they are indeed controlled by left-wing ideology.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:57am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Journalists’ tendency to be more left-wing (‘liberal’ in US parlance) is a long way from paranoia about the government controlling media messages. You know that is complete nonsense.
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:30pm
      - Classic Liberal
        
        What control is stronger – immediate censorship or the decades-long drip feeding of an ideology?
        
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        April 14, 2020 2:51pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Now you are just changing your argument. Fine. If it is ‘decades long drip feeding of an ideology’ you will be able to show how journalism was free of bias decades ago, and also how this drip feeding has somehow failed to affect many millions of other people, whether journalists or not.
        
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        April 14, 2020 4:28pm
  - JamesP
    
    Is there an amateur psychologist in the house?
    
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    April 14, 2020 7:02pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Just amateur epidemiologists these days.
      
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      April 14, 2020 7:14pm
- Pete George
  
  They make some reasonable points and these views need to be considered in the mix.
  
  But…
  
  “If you catch Covid-19 your likelihood of dying is the same as your average likelihood of dying that year anyway. It has been described as squeezing your years mortality risk into two weeks.”
  
  I think quite a few people, especially older people, will think that the difference between 12 month life expectancy and two weeks is quite a big deal.
  
  How in touch with the real world are they?
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:44am
artemisia

And on a subject even related to the topic du jour the link below is to a good article on Boris, who has now joined the pantheon of slebs known only by their first names.

A “strangely antiquated figure …He has come to dominate our national life here in Britain. He is loved and loathed, a source of fun and fury, but he is everywhere, and always Boris, the clown who cannot be contained or stopped, whose rise to the pinnacle of British life was somehow inevitable. That he would one day become prime minister was commonly accepted. Yet there was always a darker side to the speculation—that upon reaching the top, he would either burn bright or explode in public view, perhaps both. Even his family and friends were concerned that his premiership would be a disaster.Most of those I spoke with before he became prime minister thought Brexit would be this disaster, yet his term has been marked by extraordinary success, politically at least.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/04/boris-johnson-released-hospital-coronavirus-covid19/609886/
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April 14, 2020 8:09am
Peter Lane

Duncan Garner says he’s seen the Treasury projections. The PM says she hasn’t.

Who do we believe?
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April 14, 2020 8:09am
- cmm
  
  Was it on telly yet?
  Do Treasury projections get sent to Justin Trudeau?
  
  If no to both the above, She probably hasn’t seen it yet.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:11am
  - Peter Lane
    
    But but but Duncan says he has seen them.
    
    28 1
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    April 14, 2020 8:12am
  - Luke Piewalker
    
    Cindy needs the report written in crayon
    
    Someone can then explain it to her at her next kindy visit
    
    57 2
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    April 14, 2020 8:14am
  - kiwitoffee
    
    Does anybody else find it difficult to distinguish between Justin Trudeau and Justin Bieber?
    
    22 2
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    April 14, 2020 8:41am
    - hullkiwi
      
      They are both Canadian and equally pointless.
      
      18 2
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      April 14, 2020 9:15am
    - cmm
      
      As a partial Canadian I partially apologise for both Justins.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:56am
  - BobbyS
    
    Even if she saw them she still wouldn’t understand them
    
    25 1
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    April 14, 2020 9:03am
    - david
      
      Oh, I don’t know! As long as GDP isn’t mentioned and they use whole numbers rather that percentages or fractions, she might get some inkling about the country’s trajectory.
      
      12 1
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      April 14, 2020 10:06am
  - Simon
    
    “New projections from Treasury show that the unemployment rate can be kept under 10 per cent if the Government comes to the table with extra financial support to help the country weather the fall out of Covid-19.”
    
    Under 10%. La la land.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:25am
    - igm
      
      I love these quotes “Government Assistance”!
      It is bloody taxpayers’ assistance, those that this vile apology of a government detest.
      
      25 4
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      April 14, 2020 9:31am
    - DeepBlue
      
      Depends if you count work for the dole, work for minimum wage on DoC Estate, get paid to volunteer and minimum wage tree planting as employment or not.
      
      I see ex pilots are pleased to be stocking supermarket shelves. They might be employed but hardly gainfully.
      
      16 1
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      April 14, 2020 9:49am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  The one who knows what GDP is.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:12am
- fightingtemeraire
  
  She thinks Treasury is a brand of disposable nappies
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:14am
  - Nickc2
    
    Did the opposition hack the Treasury Website again? (sarc)
    
    21 1
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    April 14, 2020 8:24am
  - john1234
    
    fightingtemeraire wins the internet today.
    
    18 1
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    April 14, 2020 8:50am
- Ruahine
  
  Both. No point in sending to Ardern though she would not know what they mean.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:25am
- artemisia
  
  Ms Ardern said on the wireless this morning it was only Treasury scenarios, with numbers. Not projections then in an alternate universe.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:26am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    What projections then does Cindimania have? Has she consulted with the Manus Island leader?
    
    23 1
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    April 14, 2020 9:15am
    - igm
      
      No, she consults with a local imam . . . islam is her saviour!
      
      13 4
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      April 14, 2020 10:13am
      - RichardX
        
        You make that claim frequently.
        Is there any evidence to support it?
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:14pm
  - hullkiwi
    
    question are these the same models that Grant was running in February (that never got released).
    
    So, expectations on accuracy will not be high.
    
    Problem for Robertson, publish either:
    1. projections of economic nuclear winter (probably more realistic) and be accused of being gloomy and pessimeistic, but if things are better he can look good at the election; or
    2. projections that are optimistic, things turn out worse and he gets accussed of lying and economic mismanagement at the election.
    
    What a Hobson’s choice he has got – so how honest a politician can he be?
    
    21 2
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    April 14, 2020 9:22am
- Inandout
  
  Wow, haven’t watched that show in months. I find my ears are better tuned to radio than the Ruby Lips.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:26am
  - BobbyS
    
    F$#K she is annoying
    Everything is “ohhhhhh this & ohhhhhh that”
    Bleeding heart brigade
    *vomit inducing
    
    37 1
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    April 14, 2020 9:04am
    - Inandout
      
      BobbyS, you description of the Ruby One is almost erotic.
      
      7 1
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      April 14, 2020 9:42am
      - Classic Liberal
        
        Now, now – can someone bearing your nom de plume criticise??
        
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        April 14, 2020 12:04pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    I am sure that Mark or Duncan can read the weather off the autocue, what a waste of a high salary Amanda is.
    
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    April 14, 2020 1:30pm
- stewmar
  
  Duncan Garner says he’s seen the Treasury projections. The PM says she hasn’t.
  
  She’s waiting for the Marvel version to bring them out in comic book format
  
  23 1
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  April 14, 2020 9:35am
  - alloytoo
    
    Now that’s just insulting, comics are much more sophisticated than her comprehension.
    
    3 1
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    April 14, 2020 12:24pm
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  IN CINDY WE TRUST. She never lies.
  
  15 1
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  April 14, 2020 10:27am
  - RW Capitalist
    
    Sarcasm …soon to be classed as a taxable commodity.
    
    9 1
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    April 14, 2020 11:04am
- freethinker
  
  Peter L.
  I am hearing the music again – You cant hide your lyin eyes. The Eagles
  
  6 1
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  April 14, 2020 1:06pm
- adamsmith1922
  
  Clearly The Spinoff has not seen it, so Ardern cannot comment
  
  2 1
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  April 14, 2020 3:31pm
Mobile Michael

So which Labour MP took down a Facebook post of her family having a picnic on the Hutt River trail after many comments that it goes against Government guidance?
72 1
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April 14, 2020 8:10am
- AgainstTheFlow
  
  Based on past form, it was Trevor.
  
  26 1
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  April 14, 2020 8:21am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Ginny Anderson?
  
  52 1
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  April 14, 2020 8:23am
  - Mobile Michael
    
    How ever did you guess? 😉
    
    I wish I’d screenshotted it.
    
    38 1
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    April 14, 2020 8:39am
  - igm
    
    Bet Fairfax editorial won’r even look at this . . . if it was Bishop they would be callingg for his resignation and have pics plastered as P1 lead.
    
    41 3
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    April 14, 2020 8:59am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    She’s one of Labour’s smarter ones.
    
    12 6
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    April 14, 2020 9:16am
    - hullkiwi
      
      really?
      
      20 1
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      April 14, 2020 9:23am
  - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
    
    Whatever Ginny does, it is for the benefit of Hutt voters. Two ticks Labour come September.
    
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    April 14, 2020 10:28am
  - adamsmith1922
    
    I agree
    
    1 1
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    April 14, 2020 3:32pm
Durden

The Greens are ghouls.

Using Tactical urbanism–they want to remove car parks and sneak in temporary (yeah right) cycle ways when people are distracted with more life-and-death issues and how to recover back. This is straight out of the Greens-cyclists playbook. And Genter’s obsession with her parking consultancy speciality.

The Green driven council in Wellington tried this sort of tactical urbanism in Wellington after the Kaikoura earthquake by re-modelling about a100-150 m of lower Tory Street between Courtenay place and Wakefield streets using some local college students’ designs.

Was impractical, failed miserably and had to be taken down.

The best answer to this madness is to send the Greens into oblivion at the next election. Make them pay for their dogma driven selfishness in the face of national..no.. global ruin.

The poster going around which asks the question “How do you like your free four week trial of communism” is an apt one in this case. Don’t talk to commenters on the Lindsay Shelton fronted Green controlled mouthpiece — Scoop.co.nz. They seem to love the quiet, clean air with people walking in neigbourhoods paid for by $1 B / week of government spending and ruin for 30-50% of the population.
http://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=127060

Bob Jones’ post on Monday calls it where he says “In a climate of deep economic despair the Greens message will seem irrelevant and their concerns esoteric. That’s another nail in Labour’s coffin should they lose their coalition partner, as I believe they will. There’s an irony to that as with the global shutdown and little vehicle activity, reports elsewhere talk of the new found clean air and visibility.”
https://nopunchespulled.com/2020/04/13/the-coming-economic-crisis-and-its-political-consequences/

Not sure about his hots for Genter though — “without ever resorting to the customary and tiresome abuse of the other side”. Really ? Remember “car fascists” ?
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April 14, 2020 8:14am
- Mike22240
  
  I suspect Sir Bob doesn’t follow twitter and is only refering to parliament tv
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:19am
  - Inandout
    
    Bob is a great dinner host, so maybe the US import has graced his table on the odd occasion. Isn’t JAG also teamed up with a business partner chap?
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:41am
    - hullkiwi
      
      Her partner is an economist. He also worked for the same consultancy in Auck as JAG did. Last year, he took up a role with WCC.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:09am
- Peter Lane
  
  Simon Wilson wants Goff to spend a hundred million on walkways and cycleways.
  
  37 2
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  April 14, 2020 8:22am
  - All_on_Red
    
    The fcat that Wilson can’t see that Goff and the AC doesn’t have $100 m shows what a shit ‘journalist’ he is.
    What a moron.
    
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    April 14, 2020 8:26am
  - BobbyS
    
    [Deleted – OTT Mod.]
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:07am
- PhilBest
  
  I don’t know what is deadlier – being an abusive slope-brow or being a “genteel totalitarian”. I’m sure some totalitarian sadists in the past were proud of a cultured, refined image even as they sent millions to the gulag and the torture chamber.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:22am
- Yvette
  
  Durden
  As a niece pointed out to me, she being in Dunedin, people do not notably uses cycle ways. And the example she gives is David Clark who drove his bike in a van, for the 2.3 km from home to the mountain bike venue, instead of riding his bike that relatively small distance up the North Road cycleway to get there.
  When we asked Japanese friends how they found New Zealand after they did a cycling tour a while back, they said “North Island very up and down, South Island very up and up”.
  Perhaps for David Clark the North Road cycleway was a little “up and up” at the top end – whatever, he apparently didn’t use it.
  
  36 2
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  April 14, 2020 8:31am
  - doggone7
    
    Imagine how spastic people would have gone if Clark had cycled that 2.3km.
    
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    April 14, 2020 5:44pm
- PhilBest
  
  That posting by Sir Bob Jones is absolutely spot on. On point after point, he is hammering home the things that always have been self evident to anyone of us with half a brain.
  
  Top point: if our media did their homework, they should not have been surprised by our low death rate; “….instead they LUDICROUSLY attribute this to Jacinda’s leadership…..”!!!
  
  Sir Bob’s post should be cross posted by every blog in the nation, and should be published by every daily.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:39am
- Loddenthinks
  
  He’s always had an eye for the younger woman, has our Bob.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:45am
  - Steve James
    
    Don’t we all?✌
    
    17 2
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    April 14, 2020 8:48am
  - PhilBest
    
    He says he’s quite “enjoying the lockdown with his partner”…. I’m sure he’s NZ’s Donald Trump on this as well as many other points; only he hasn’t made a run into politics in his old age. Wish he would.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:55am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  everything you needed to know about the scoop “journalist”
  
  “Wellingtonian by adoption since 2005. Fervent supporter of a full transition away from fossil fuel (on land, on water & in the air). Member of the Green Party.”
  
  Typical greenie. Clearly he walked here.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:46am
- Faroffsound
  
  Bob Jones makes a lot more sense than the government but unfortunately the CoL looks set to continue with its ridiculously over the top reaction.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:16am
- Brian McDonald
  
  I wouldn’t be too sure that the next election is not fertile ground for the Greens. CV has been a big scare for some folks and a cleaner and greener future with less congestion will be appealing.
  James Shaw has already spoken about his views on what a new economy will look like – I think our farmers, orchardists and so on were already headed that way and perhaps a little sick of not being given credit for their efforts. Right now they are the backbone again and the big towers of Auckland not so appealing.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:22am
- Classic Liberal
  
  Durden, but Genter’s plan of allowing cyclists and e-scooters on footpaths, zooming past pedestrians who can’t even hear them coming up from behind is absolutely horrific. Elderly people won’t dare go for a walk – one crash with a bicycle or scooter and they would end up in hospital. Pedestrians won’t be able to walk side-by-side. For any step to the side pedestrians will have to look behind in fear.
  
  Separate cycleways are the only safe way for pedestrians and cyclists. Unfortunately very bad for car traffic.
  
  There is no easy answer, but allowing vehicles on footpaths will be a total disaster.
  
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  April 14, 2020 12:12pm
- alloytoo
  
  The Greens primary problem is that no one in their right mind is going to use public transport in the near future, a car is after all a natural bubble.
  
  That, couple with the fact that many of us will be working from home means that public transport is going to be shunned for a good long while.
  
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  April 14, 2020 12:29pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Many people will use public transport, which is the only practical way for most people in cities to get to work or schools.
    Just because many Kiwibloggers look down on public transport, resent funding it, and despise those who sue it, does not make it any less of a critical piece of infrastructure.
    
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    April 14, 2020 1:25pm
    - Nutta
      
      “The only practical way”
      
      I think you mean, the only affordable way. Removing roading to decrease traffic flow, removing parking to increase cost, and adding fuel tax to even further increase cost of private transport does not equal the “practical” option. It equals the only option left for many.
      
      Public transport isn’t convenient. If you’re close to the CBD maybe it is. But try getting from West Auckland to East Tamaki on public transport.
      
      Public transport isn’t cheap. I did the exercise of going from Titirangi to New Lynn for a movie, and it’s much cheaper to take a car. This was for two adults and two kids.
      
      Public transport isn’t reliable. There are not to mangy weeks that there isn’t a news story about train outages. There are numerous bus and train issues that don’t get reported.
      
      Public transport is a sad joke, only a viable option for some as the other options they used to have are being actively targeted to make them less so .
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:07pm
fernglas

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120984583/coronavirus-lockdown-rules-should-be-relaxed-health-experts-say
About time there was some intellectual rigor brought to this debate.
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April 14, 2020 8:16am
- Peter Lane
  
  I see it was flat out rejected by the ‘powers that be’ though.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:23am
- PhilBest
  
  You said it! About b—-y TIME! I have found it impossible to believe that there wasn’t, in NZ, other professionals at least as well credentialled as Ashley Bloomfield, who could see the reality as opposed to the sham. Ironically, socialist Sweden seems to be the only lucky nation to have a national Director of Health who isn’t in the pocket of the control freak politicians.
  
  Notice how the “government spokesman” responding to this call is saying but but but BUT THE MODELS…..!!!!
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:26am
- Bobba Fret
  
  Jacinda and the government will say their “expert” projections by going fast and hard to level 4 have saved thousands of lives and lives are more important than the economy (especially to the COL).
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:04am
  - PhilBest
    
    And sadly a lotta people will believe them and the MSM won’t try to wise them up.
    
    18 2
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    April 14, 2020 9:56am
  - david
    
    Yes indeed Bobba. She has rather thrown down the challenge by effectively saying “ I have personally, by my decisiveness and good decision-making saved thousands of lives. Prove me wrong”
    
    14 1
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    April 14, 2020 10:16am
    - Bobba Fret
      
      Yes and there is the problem….it’s probably impossible to prove her wrong as every “Expert” will come up with a different answer on what could have happened and they will pick the one they like.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:17am
  - alloytoo
    
    They will ignore the sieve like border control.
    
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    April 14, 2020 12:30pm
- artemisia
  
  How many of the public health experts from the University of Otago (Wellington and Dunedin) signed this?
  
  They do appear to be the government’s chosen experts. Along with Siouxie Wilds of course, who is not happy on Twitter about the ‘6 expert men’ –
  
  To all the media listening to the 6 expert men, please ask them for the data which they say shows #COVID19 is “not the disaster we feared and prepared for”. Also please be mindful that Thornley did some spectacular cherry-picking last time he made the same claim.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:54am
Nickc2

I think the only thing controversial about hydroxychloroquine treatment is that Donald Trump mentioned it. If a Democrat had mentioned it, the US MSM would be screaming for it to be compulsory and government funded.
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April 14, 2020 8:19am
- MCos
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  I would have thought that President Trump, who has no medical background whatsoever, should be pushing this drug as some sort of untested wonder drug, was controversial enough.
  
  7 37
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  April 14, 2020 8:55am
  - Nickc2
    
    Trump has advisers. He may not keep them for long, but he does replace them. His current medico didn’t disagree with the treatment, he disagreed with the urgency with which Trump initiated lockdowns.
    Our so called PM should also be held publicly responsible for her delay in initiating border closures, testing, quarantining and lockdowns, not to mention the lies she told along the way.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:13am
    - Nickc2
      
      As an add-on to my post above, Trump has not and to date, has no intention of firing his medico adviser. Previous posts about this were nothing but CNN Bovine Poo (Fake News).
      https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/13/white-house-president-trump-is-not-firing-dr-fauci/#
      
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      April 14, 2020 1:53pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    There were sufficient medical reports to alert anyone as to HCQ use. The remdesivir alternative was patented in Wuhan just before the epidemic.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:22am
  - herb1
    
    if you bothered with a cursory look at media reports , you will see Dr Fauci spoke of it. Many Drs and universities were trialling it and the CDC spoke of its benefits on cars (another coronavirus) back in 2006.
    ASs to being untested , its been sold by the millions for the last 75 years
    
    14 1
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    April 14, 2020 9:40am
    - PhilBest
      
      As this French expert says, a lot of the opposition could stem from “Big Pharma” anxious to profit from the development of a new cure, whereas Chloroquine is “in the public domain” i.e. no-one has a patent on it.
      
      http://jdmichel.blog.tdg.ch/archive/2020/03/24/covid-19-the-game-is-over-305275.html
      
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      April 14, 2020 9:59am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      That it is proven for other conditions does not eliminate the need to trial its efficacy in treating Covid-19. So far, all I have seen is reports from doctors saying patients have recovered after being treated with it – not the same as a double-blind trial.
      
      7 18
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      April 14, 2020 10:38am
      - Brian McDonald
        
        Of course, double-blind testing is being applied to it somewhere. And I’m sure everyone hopes it may yet be the wonder drug against CV – but we are not there yet.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:25am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        What amuses me most, Brian, is that Trump’s ignorant reference to it made it hot news. Of course normal medical experts are working on treatments, including this, but the mindless Trump-cult members have rushed to laud it and to decry anyone who might question its worth.
        It is exactly the same kind of derangement which they project onto Trump’s critics.
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:15pm
      - PhilBest
        
        Here’s my standard response to that argument. Ventilator treatment is “not proven” for this particular disease either; so why do ICU doctors put all the cases on it?
        
        It is now being suggested by some experts that the “standard practice” ventilator treatment actually kills around 2/3 of COVID-19 patients and they really needed a lower pressure and higher oxygen content. But I don’t see waves of condemnation from the lefty fake news that an “uproven treatment” was deadly.
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:58pm
AgainstTheFlow

Selling essential verses non-essential goods:
yesterday I went online shopping for a kitchen appliance.

Milk frothers and waffle makers are essential, but not handheld mixers.
Round pizza stones are essential but rectangular pizza stones are not.
Stand mixers are essential if red or blue, but not if they are Ice or pink coloured.

This isn’t criticising Stevens & Co, or even the MBIE officials who had to make such illogical judgements.

But shouldn’t the rule be that retailing can be done safely or not, rather than someone deciding a waffle maker is essential, but a pink stand mixer is not essential (unless it is red).
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April 14, 2020 8:20am
- kevn
  
  @Against… All on-line purchases should be cleared.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:53am
  - JackRabbit
    
    Tar and feathers might be restricted…
    
    3 1
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    April 14, 2020 1:24pm
- JackRabbit
  
  How else can they keep people on full pay doing something? (nothing useful)
  
  They probably have the logic like: There is more surface area to the square stone so it implies more surface area to the pizza which means a bigger pizza which implies more people aka visitors.
  
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  April 14, 2020 8:53am
- mikenmildagain
  
  I doubt that MBIE official are individually certifying item of retailers’ stock as essential or not. Perhaps you should email the retailer and find out how they made the choices.
  
  5 24
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  April 14, 2020 8:57am
  - AgainstTheFlow
    
    Wouldn’t the retailer have said – “everything is essential”?
    
    A friend of mine wanted to buy an iPad – she could buy one with wifi, but not wifi + cellular.
    
    16 1
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    April 14, 2020 9:50am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Again, I don’t know how the system works, but it would surely be impossible for government officials to positively vet hundreds of thousands (millions?) of items offered by hundreds of separate retailer. I’d be interested to know what the criteria are, but surely each retailer needs to make the decision, although maybe there is a reporting mechanism so that MBIE can intervene if non-essential items are being offered.
      Customers have a part to play, too, in what they choose to order – is your purchase truly essential?
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:43am
      - Classic Liberal
        
        Blaming customers and retailers? No. This failure is completely government-manufactured!
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:03pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        You don’t get it, Classic. This is not a general argument about the whole lock-down, it’s about retailers selling essential items only. AgainstTheFlow made good points, to which I provided a rational response. It’s not my fault that you refuse to understand.
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:56pm
      - Classic Liberal
        
        It shouldn’t effin’ matter whether it’s ‘essential’, just whether the sale constitutes a truly raised risk.
        
        Blaming retailers and customers for their decisions on what it ‘essential’ will make it very convenient if govt. wants to take any to court ‘pour encourager les autres’.
        
        The joy of authoritarian power, with rules so vaguely defined that they can be sure some people will ‘get it wrong’.
        
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        April 14, 2020 2:44pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Sigh. Sale of non-essential goods increases the number of people needed to process and deliver orders, and thus increases opportunities for human-to-human contact. That is the premise of identifying goods as essential or not, whether you agree with its validity. I didn’t come to argue that; I was trying to help AgainstTheFlow recognise that there was no way such a system could be managed except by retailers themselves.
        Like a myriad of other lock-down restrictions, compliance depends on a willingness from the vast majority to comply. Just because a few malcontents on a blog disagree doesn’t change that.
        
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        April 14, 2020 4:22pm
- Ruahine
  
  It is about control. ‘They’ have the power. ‘You’ do not.
  
  30 2
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  April 14, 2020 9:13am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    That’s how the communist command economies failed–all control, no wisdom.
    
    15 2
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    April 14, 2020 11:12am
- KevO'Brien
  
  How else can they control?
  Socialists are bred for that purpose.
  
  22 2
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  April 14, 2020 9:33am
  - Michael NZ
    
    Kev
    They become infected not bred.
    There fixed that for you..
    
    1 2
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    April 14, 2020 2:23pm
- Sacha
  
  MBIE officials concerning themselves with the colours of mixers and the shape of pizza stones?
  
  Sack the bloody lot, I say.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:58am
- Brian McDonald
  
  Totally agree, but it will be practice makes perfect. When the retailer Noel Leeming got essential service status one of the Managers with some exasperation said on TV that he could sell a jug but not a coffee machine.
  The underlying message is, however, Kiwis adapting.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:30am
SJ Actual

Regarding Winston fishing, it seems once again that the rules for the plebs don’t apply to ministers. While he may have technically remained within the rules, it certainly isn’t in line with the messaging that has been put out that surf casting and fishing from rocks isn’t allowed.
But as usual the prime minister will just let it slide.
I’d really love to take the kids down to the local inlet for some fishing, but don’t have sufficient rank to get away with it like the deputy PM.
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April 14, 2020 8:24am
- KevO'Brien
  
  If Winston was fishing from his back yard, fair enough. He hasn’t been smart in talking about it.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:31am
  - PhilBest
    
    Nah, I pick that he intends to ride this issue to a “bigger than 5% vote” at the next election. He’s testing the waters to see how much support he’s picking up by making rumblings that he doesn’t support the current policy.
    
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    April 14, 2020 10:01am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      He’s a failed wiley old fox . Winston dropped out with his anti-capitalism declaration.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:11am
- Immigrant
  
  Probably an old photo. The rat is getting very little media coverage, so he had to put out something to attract some attention
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:04am
- Nutta
  
  It wasn’t the fishing, but his method. He was doing some epic trolling and got bites.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:12pm
emmess

We need to start thinking about moving back to level 3, next week.

https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-system/covid-19-alert-system/

Except schools should remain closed, at least for those who have an option for kids to remain at home.
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April 14, 2020 8:24am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Level 2 again at least.
  
  7 3
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  April 14, 2020 11:09am
UkiWop

Back in 2017 Ardern spouted to the UN about her generations nuclear moment and it was up to her to save the planet from climate change (no matter the financial cost to NZ)

Questoin to Ardern…

What is her priority now

Save the planet or save the NZ economy
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April 14, 2020 8:29am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I think you would be told that your question is a false dichotomy. The pandemic is an opportunity for an economic reset. The pandemic will actually save the economy. If you just wait a little, you will be able to own a “cleaner, greener” business, or at least find a well paying job in one.
  
  https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/04/investment-after-coronavirus-pandemic-provides-opportunity-to-create-sustainable-future-james-shaw.html
  
  “The pathway that we have been on is unsustainable and if we are going to spend tens of billions of dollars on pumping up the economy and keeping business intact and keeping people in work, there is a way we can shape that so that in the future the economy locks us into a cleaner, greener future.”
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:08am
  - UkiWop
    
    I’m thinking specifically the shut down of the oil and gas fields which will ammount to billions of lost dollars to NZ and the billions of ongoing carbon credits payments to ??
    No point in being clean and green and broke
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:37am
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Sorry UKiWop, that ship has sailed. O&G exploration has gone & it’s not coming back in the next few years if ever (black swans aside).
      
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      April 14, 2020 2:59pm
      - UkiWop
        
        Question is, does the NZ populous even care that Ardern has sold Kiwi’s down the river
        
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        April 14, 2020 3:12pm
      - Nickc2
        
        @UkiWop
        I certainly care and will never forget how we were sold down the drain by a Communist Regime known for some time as the NZ Labour Party.
        
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        April 14, 2020 4:06pm
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    Yes, of course! Why didn’t we all think of that earlier!
    
    I intend to be a unicorn breeder.
    
    A cleaner, greener future is an agrarian subsistence economy. No thanks.
    
    Anything else requires business, industry and making and selling things that people want to buy – not serving fairtrade lattes to each other at the local weaving collective – which is all our green friends have ever experienced
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:48am
    - pjay
      
      Right! this means of course that there are people out there with discretionary dosh to spend.
      
      Also we seem to have a naive idea that when we’re “released” from our bondage, that we can refuel the aircraft, trucks, ships …. and sail back out into the world hawking our goods and restocking the likes of Queenstown with high roller tourists buying our lattes and overpriced woollen goods ….
      
      I don’t see this happening … certainly not at the artificial levels we have enjoyed prior to Covi-19.
      
      We will be reduced to selling stuff to ourselves – the day of the self employed tradesmen has come.
      
      Selling insurance to ourselves won’t work.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:32am
      - Classic Liberal
        
        “the day of the self employed tradesmen has come.”
        
        The self employed tradesmen who are being totally ruined by this lockdown?
        
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        April 14, 2020 1:08pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Jimmie Shaw got his diploma in fish cake cookery from the Alice in Blunderland School of tackycindanomics. It qualifies him to apply for a position as road placard controller.
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:07am
  - PhilBest
    
    Once again, I detect Kiwibloggers downticking the “letter” of the comment without getting it that the poster themselves is a cynic, not just uncritically quoting what is obvious nonsense.
    
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    April 14, 2020 2:00pm
RiP NZ

Peters ‘ I’ll be first in the mine,’ NO,’ ‘ Capitalism has failed’ sure knows how to send a big fk you. Whether you should be allowed to or not, the fishing pic is bad taste to say the least.
I would have enjoyed a spot of fishing with my boy from the wharf…..
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April 14, 2020 8:29am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Fishing from a public wharf? Perhaps not the best idea. Fishing from one’s back lawn? Probably okay, but doesn’t send a good message from a politician.
  I’ve seen a fair bit of Facebook posting from MPs modelling good lock-down behaviour.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:01am
  - calendar girl
    
    What, none of them went to their family-owned bach this Easter Weekend (staying strictly within their own family ‘bubble’, of course)?
    
    I don’t believe it.
    
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    April 14, 2020 3:36pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Do you have some information about that? If so, public shaming like for David Clark, Simon Bridges, or Ginny Andersen might be in order.
      
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      April 14, 2020 4:17pm
Prince

Question: Why is Ardern allowed time to answer questions put to her on Morning Report, without interruption, whereas Bridges is interrupted each time ?
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April 14, 2020 8:34am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  whereas Bridges is interrupted each time
  
  Have you not noticed the large instruction at the top of each media outlet:
  
  We bring down Bridges
  
  You have to wonder why the media is so desperate to support Ardern… seems she can’t stand out her own legs.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:51am
emmess

Sounds like someone we know?
https://spectator.org/the-worst-governor-in-america/
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April 14, 2020 8:35am
Inandout

The problem is Jacinda hasn’t a clue how to extricate this country from the lock down, she is floundering. If she insists on keeping us locked down until there is not one death then we shall all wake up to a destroyed economy and a huge crime increase.
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April 14, 2020 8:36am
- KevO'Brien
  
  I have to wonder about my clients being in business next year. Restarting is not going to be easy.
  Sir Bob Jones is seeing a 25% unemployment rate. Does a universal lockdown justify that outcome? I agree with Sir Bob.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:29am
- kowtow
  
  ‘we shall all wake up to a destroyed economy and a huge crime increase.’
  
  Too late , the damage is done and the economic, social etc fall out will be appalling.
  
  These clowns have no idea of what they’ve wrought .
  
  See Bob Jones blog,
  
  “Six weeks ago at a small dinner party I remarked to 3 of our most seniorn govt figures, ” get ready to write a huge cheque for Air NZ”, the response – puzzlement”
  
  https://nopunchespulled.com/2020/04/13/the-coming-economic-crisis-and-its-political-consequences/
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:30am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Well worth reading.
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:01am
  - Ruahine
    
    This article from Bob Jones is worth reading and is almost entirely correct. It will be interesting to see if the proxy state newspapers publish it.
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:05am
- Ruahine
  
  I do not think Ardern wants to. Others do. She wants to boast to the world of her ‘success’ because the figures will look good when viewed superficially through a MSM prism. Just think of the world media adulation.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:08am
igm

So Fairfax editorial staff are concerned for their livelihoods.
You reap what you sow socialist unionsed Labour-supporting fools.
Maybe you could get a few of your ilk aboard and have a staff buy-up, showing some gumption and commitment to your cause.
After all, you have Gordon Campbell, a known entrepreneur, to guide you along a successful path to wealth and fame.
You may even enlist the help of Little and Parker . . . you will then have struck a treble!
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April 14, 2020 8:37am
Old White Loser

This head line from Stuff is a out right lie

Trump’s call to fire his top coronavirus expert
Washington’s top virus expert said a quicker response “could have saved lives”. Then came Trump with “#FireFauci”.

He actual started the Tweat with Fake News

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/donald-trumps-america/120992945/coronavirus-donald-trump-retweets-call-to-fire-top-covid19-expert-anthony-fauci
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April 14, 2020 8:37am
DRHILL

Every time there is an economist on TV they always have to seem so down (Shamubeel Eaqub for example) – is this part of their contract?
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April 14, 2020 8:38am
- Bobba Fret
  
  Shamubeel “dont buy a house in Auckland its better to rent” Eaqub is a paid mouth piece for Labour.
  Tony Alexander, Cameron Bagrie and the ANZ and Westpac economists are much better to listen to if you want sensible advise.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:21am
  - adamsmith1922
    
    Michael Reddell writes a lot of sense at Croaking Cassandra as does Eric Crampton at NZ Initiative and Offsetting Behaviou
    
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    April 14, 2020 3:40pm
cmm

Winston might not have broken any laws by fishing from his garden, but he has been a hell of a dick for showing that he can go fishing while others can’t and rubbing people’s noses in it.

This will not feel fair to many people.
This will not help compliance.
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April 14, 2020 8:44am
- Bobba Fret
  
  He will get away with it as it as he is fishing from his own property…..but it is definitely saying look at me ….I can go fishing and you can’t!
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:01am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    My boat is my property but I’d still get caned by the Police we’re I to fish from it.
    
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    April 14, 2020 3:01pm
- Faroffsound
  
  Winston is a smartarse – he can’t help himself even when he should know better. Or his press people should know better whoever they are.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:02am
- Ruahine
  
  Perhaps Winston is sending out a message. He knows that going fishing is not going to spread any virus just as going swimming or surfing or kite sailing is not either. He is sending us a message that he is on ‘our’ side. Bless him.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:19am
  - JackRabbit
    
    No, he is just bragging.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:52am
    - cmm
      
      No, he’s just being a smug dick.
      
      Hey stupid taxpayers. I can fish if I want while you pay me $400k + expenses. You can do bugger all…
      
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      April 14, 2020 4:18pm
- JackRabbit
  
  So Winston can work to the spirit of the law while everyone else has to comply with the letter of the law.
  
  If he slipped and fell in, and no-one could rescue him, how would the inquest go? Died as a result of stupidity?
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:20am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    There would be a queue of people with their foot on his head to be moved first or standing on his fingers while getting up the bank.
    
    Her Toothinness said ‘that he was not on a boat’. Well that is alright then, didn’t even have to apologise. Result!
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:45am
    - cmm
      
      So is that the new standard then: not on a boat is Ok?
      
      Fishing from the surf/rocks is fine is it? Going trout fishing in a river is Ok is it?
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:09am
      - Paulus Gnome
        
        According to the Prime Minister [edited by Mod], reading between the lines, yes.
        
        The concept of seeking forgiveness rather than permission is strong among the socialists, secure in the knowledge that a Claytons apology will do the trick IF ever confronted.
        
        [Mod: you know those references are not allowed.]
        
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        April 14, 2020 10:54am
  - Grant
    
    Small correction required Jack…
    “If he slipped and fell in, no-one WOULD rescue him….”
    G
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:52am
  - freethinker
    
    Jack Rabbit – if only, a silver lining to every cloud.
    
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    April 14, 2020 4:25pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  How come he is not at home in Herne Bay? The rest of us have to stay home.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:14am
  - Paulus
    
    Herne (St Mary’s Bay) Bay is not his – it belongs to his Partner.
    His Family Batch up North is as far as “his” is !
    
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    April 14, 2020 10:57am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      My home is jointly owned with my partner – just saying
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:53am
MrTips

I think the first 3 sentences of this article by Henry Cooke at Stuff need to be the basis of some serious questions at the Committee meetings. The money quotes:

OPINION: Late one evening in early February I ran into a minister I hadn’t seen in a while. I asked him how he was and he said he was extremely worried, his tone slipping from the jocularity you would usually find past 10pm in the Beehive’s bar. “Coronavirus,” he said, eyes widening. “If this gets bad we are going to take a wash.”

So back in early February the govt knew how serious SARS-COV-2 could be. So WHY did they wait until March the 14th to announce social restrictions in parity with their concern?
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April 14, 2020 8:48am
- kowtow
  
  “There still is a sort of morbid exhilaration you get, sitting in the room as the Prime Minister announces a quasi-police state, a childlike awe for the power of the state once things really get bad.”
  
  This from that article , by the stuff senior political reporter is what worries me. Child like awe ? FFS , these are the people who’re meant to be holding power to account and they talk of child like awe?
  
  Well judging by his photo he is a child , and from that article he lives , like the junior he is in a flat with 6 others. So he doesn’t have a family or home to look after and be responsible for.And yet he’s rated as a senior journalist. How much real life experience does our senior 4 th estate have ?
  They’re just like so many of our politicians , no experience , just sloganeering sneering anti Trumpists , no wonder we’re in such dire straights.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:16am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    The most disturbing piece in Henry Cooke’s article was this:
    
    someone who might infect and kill my quite-old parents,
    
    His parents are my “old” classmates. His daddy is younger than me (by a few months)!
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/120924212/another-day-another-crisis-inside-the-beehive-bubble
    
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    April 14, 2020 10:01am
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Yes, always disturbing!
      
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      April 14, 2020 3:03pm
- JackRabbit
  
  On a different note about knowledge of risks:
  
  It appears CDC tells the public one thing and their own kind another.
  
  A summit on Bacteriophages (viruses) to be held in August. CDC advised on March 4th:
  
  The Centre’s for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) advise that the health risk of COVID-19 is considered low at the time of publishing this information.
  
  https://bacteriophage-summit.com/bacteriophage-summit-corona-virus-statement/
  
  The summit is about the use of Bacteriophages (viruses) as a means of controlling bacterial infections.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:30am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Bacteriophages = bacteria eaters = a variety of virus that uses a particular bacteria as food.
    
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    April 14, 2020 10:56am
    - JackRabbit
      
      And if in the wrong host, and therefore cannot identify the good cells, could create damage?
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:01am
- MCos
  
  “So WHY did they wait until March the 14th to announce social restrictions in parity with their concern?”
  I would have thought the answer was quite obvious.
  The first case of Covid-19 in NZ was at the end of February. Even by the 14-March there was only six.
  If the government had brought in draconian measures too early with the subsequent disruption to the economy when there appeared to be little threat it would have been doubtful if the country would have gone along.
  As is pointed out endless on this forum they don’t exactly have overwhelming public support at the best of times.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:41am
  - alloytoo
    
    It was pretty damn obvious by 1st March that the PM was holding out for her March 15 Campaign launch.
    
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    April 14, 2020 12:40pm
  - All_on_Red
    
    ‘Even by the 14-March there was only six.’
    
    Could easily have started checking at our Borders and signalling to Cruise ships there might be a problem
    She was too slow and did too little.
    
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    April 14, 2020 2:23pm
- Scooter
  
  I noticed a spelling mistake in the caption under the photo of JA, should be “frowning” not fronting.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:41pm
kevn

Check out unherd.com an interesting graphics summary, including the Swedish model that JA is so against.
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April 14, 2020 8:51am
- PhilBest
  
  Here’s link to the specific article. Yes, it’s a must-read.
  
  https://unherd.com/2020/04/jury-still-out-on-swedish-coronavirus-strategy/
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:10am
chukar

Global warmers relax.
Snow in the south!
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April 14, 2020 8:57am
- Colville
  
  Snow at the Cheateau Tongariro too.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:18am
  - JackRabbit
    
    Cheateau
    
    is that like a Chateau but reserved for senior Labour Party spin Doctors?
    
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    April 14, 2020 12:44pm
the deity formerly known as nigel6888

This is cruel, but very accurate:

https://velvethamster.com/former-royals-announce-organization-providing-attention-to-former-royals/
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April 14, 2020 9:00am
MrTips

And another thing: hydroxychloroquine.

To any journos with integrity out there. It wasn’t Trump who came up with the idea of using it. It was the Chinese: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32075365

The above link is a February consensus statement from Chinese medico’s based on their experience of using it. Can anyone bring some accuracy and balance to the reporting on this?
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April 14, 2020 9:03am
- bruceavon
  
  All the first stories about hydroxychloroquine I read mentioned this. no one mentions it now because Trump has taken over the narrative and called it a game breaker and telling people to take it. Several proper tests are going on now to see if it works so who knows. Let’s hope so. But the suggestions it is a miracle cure at the moment are anecdotal and not scientific.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:42am
- PhilBest
  
  Don’t forget the French expert doctors who rapidly got their own trial underway. I think this is what Trump was referring to.
  
  http://jdmichel.blog.tdg.ch/archive/2020/03/24/covid-19-the-game-is-over-305275.html
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:12am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Hydroxychloroquine works for malaria, arthritis, eye infections? and a few other things. So if a person does not have these conditions and takes it, then it will do them no harm. If they have Covid 19 and become free of it that is a bonus
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:20am
  - rangitoto
    
    It should only be under a doctor’s prescription anyway. Needs to be administered with zinc and a suitable antibiotic to guard against secondary infection. I have read that the hydroxychloroquine increases cellular uptake of zinc and the zinc actually blocks the viral replication.
    
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    April 14, 2020 12:00pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      Thanks for that. Zinc blocking RNA replication is on a lot of medical sites including US Microbiology sites. Why has this not been in the news?
      
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      April 14, 2020 12:47pm
      - PhilBest
        
        I even saw someone post a deep, technical medical analysis of this on Medium.com, and the posting was deleted and the poster’s account closed with no explanation. This is how evil the Left is.
        
        The main story is in the comments on this blog posting, which are interesting reading.
        
        http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/04/05/wuhan-flu-21/
        
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        April 14, 2020 2:10pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      Meat is an excellent source of Zinc.
      
      Is that why butchers were not allowed to open?
      
      Garlic also contains Zinc. Is that why the WHO spat on Zinc at the earliest possible opportunity?
      
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      April 14, 2020 12:53pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        My work makes a product that is galvanised. I have so much zinc in me, after 46 years, it’s not funny
        
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        April 14, 2020 4:28pm
Paulus

Listened to the new Police Boss this morning and I got to understand that he thought Lockdown 3 will be very little changed to Lockdown 4.
But of course he has not been told by his boss yet as she has no ideas but will ring her pals Alistair Campbell and Ginger in London to enquire as what to do.
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April 14, 2020 9:03am
- Inandout
  
  Paulus, Ginger will be otherwise occupied, if you know what I mean. Read between the sheets.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:01pm
Doubledimp

I fear with the upcoming measures to protect the economy, NZ will slip back into the bad old days of union control, welfare dependency and rampant inflation. In order to protect the concept of capitalism, I propose enshrining it in religion, so it can be exempt from blasphemous criticism. “The church of the almighty dollar” has a nice ring to it.
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April 14, 2020 9:04am
- burt
  
  You might not like capitalism and if that is the case feel free to post the list of sustainable socialist economies.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:23am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Already such a church, well pastor:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creflo_Dollar
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:07pm
lastmanstanding

It seems to me that the Government and the civil servants are members of Wherethefuckarewe tribe.

Let me explain. The so called expert modelling ( I posted the definition of an expert a few days ago) has been wildly inaccurate. The story keeps on changing.

Now for me if they had come out at the start and said this is unchartered waters and we really dont know the outcome I would have accepted that. Its called being honest.

But instead we have had bluff and bluster pretending to be on top of the situation.

I say the longer this goes on the more likely it is to end in tears with wide spread civil disobedience as the shepple wake up.

BTW I agree with others that when this is over we need a Royal Commission of Inquiry.

1. The TORs must be written by the Opposition as its the Government thats being investigated.

2. The Panel must comprise 3 retired UK High Court Judges to ensure its independence and that its not a nudge nudge wink wink whitewash.
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April 14, 2020 9:21am
- mikenmildagain
  
  By definition, terms of reference for a royal commission of enquiry cannot be written by anyone other than the governor-general’s ministers. If might be a good idea, might even be the practice, for opposition parties to be consulted on such matters, but the sovereign can only act on the advice of responsible ministers – that just how our constitution works.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:55am
  - alloytoo
    
    I’m not entirely sure we have “Responsible ministers.”
    
    Clark for example strikes me as pretty damn irresponsible.
    
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    April 14, 2020 12:42pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Possibly you tongue was in your check, but ‘responsible’ in this sense means being responsible to parliament, in that the ministers are part of a government that commands majority support in the house of representatives.
      
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      April 14, 2020 1:06pm
burt

From Stuff:

Coronavirus’ effect on the economy

So if we could get 26% unemployment will we start deporting unemployed non citisens ?
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April 14, 2020 9:22am
- Inandout
  
  burt, and the great army of couch dwellers will have to get a job and not rely on migrants?
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:37am
  - burt
    
    That’s the point isn’t it. Why, as a country, would we allow unemployed ‘visitors’ to stay and consume our welfare, ‘free’ hospitals, ‘free’ schools and other infrastructure they don’t contribute to when we have high unemployment?
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:56am
    - alloytoo
      
      Couldn’t we just deport the citizens who haven’t contributed to that either?
      
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      April 14, 2020 12:44pm
- cmm
  
  Depends if they vote and respond to bribes…
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:38am
  - burt
    
    We know the answer to that.
    
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    April 14, 2020 9:57am
- igm
  
  Burt: What a wonderful idea . . . that would solve housing, crime, and bludging problems.
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:57am
  - burt
    
    It wouldn’t solve those issues, they will always be with us. But it will reduce them and go a long way toward helping us actually look after own own.
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:04am
    - alloytoo
      
      We would still have those problems and no one to look after our own.
      
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      April 14, 2020 12:45pm
Yvette

Total covid-19 New Zealand cases: 1349 – Maori: 111, so 8.2%

Pre-2017 Election, Kelvin Davis, for cheap attempted political gain said , “Māori are more likely to be overweight, depressed, homeless, incarcerated and uneducated according to these disturbing statistics produced under National’s watch” – repeating what has been said so ad nauseam that it is now likely “hate speech”, as well as reflecting some truth – that Maori often do feature lowest in community statistics, especially it seems: health.

So while everyone is aware of these unfortunate statistics – (we are told often enough as to believe them?) – why yet are they not reflected in this pandemic, since the Maori rate is around half their population percentage – roughly 16% – rather than above it.

Many among Maori would seem to be a considerably vulnerable group, with underlying health conditions, and also reputedly more socially structured (several generations together) as is a factor in Italy and Spain.

But, In fact, do Maori travel as much as the rest of New Zealand’s population, as to connect with the overseas source, or is the infection not yet that socially widespread, or so far is everyone just reasonably lucky?

The government made $56m available to Māori communities to respond to Covid-19, $30m of which is specifically for health, $470,000 for iwi response plans through Te Arawhiti, and $10m through Te Puni Kōkiri for outreach to Māori communities.

It may be interesting to see how this funding is spent, given that cover-19 like any such spread disease is rather random.
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April 14, 2020 9:34am
- cmm
  
  Thus far, the suppression strategy has mainly limited the transmission to overseas travelers or those close to them. As you noted, less Maori involved.
  
  I say thus far, because if the suppression strategy has set things up for a second wave in flu season then that is much more likely when there will be more community transmissions and the disease is more likely to rip through Maori communities.
  
  IMHO, but at this stage everyone is guessing.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:05am
- Paulus
  
  Accountability – Yea – pigs might fly too !
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:00am
- Nickc2
  
  They should have been told to keep all receipts for monies spent as an audit will conducted at some time before the next election campaign officially kicks off.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:02pm
- PhilBest
  
  Yvette, you make an interesting point. NZ had a deliberate policy decades ago, of creating remote suburbs of State housing for beneficiaries and low income earners. Recently I posted a comment here on the “unintended consequences” in NYC, of “progressive” local politics that keeps poor and vulnerable people in harms way with rent controls and “social housing” in locales that long since should have been renewed and gentrified.
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:14pm
stewmar

200 NZME jobs to go. Who will be left to adulate over PriNZess in the MSM
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April 14, 2020 9:37am
- Nickc2
  
  Ah, but those who remain will be hand picked by Cindy and Robbo so long as they are signed up union members or are prepared to sign up accordingly.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:06pm
- Durden
  
  Journalists getting a taste of the real world ? Excellent.
  
  Now if we could shutdown a few academic departments, sack a few government employees and shutter some government departments and knife some of the myriad of agencies spawned by the COL, we might just start getting some skin-in-the-game sensible advice flowing.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:07pm
- curry4me
  
  stewmar: I guess they can enrol in coding coursed if the economy is out of lockdown in Feb 2021.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:23pm
kowtow

Can anyone remember the likes of Greenpeace and/or the piratical Sea Shepherds and any number of other “we care for the animal types” who physically blocked / trespassed / impeded lawful activity in the west , and were very heavily publicised by the Media Party , ever ever doing a similar blockade /protest at a wet market or wild animal farm in the Far East or South East Asia ?

Asking for a friend.
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April 14, 2020 9:38am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  There have been many protests petitions about the dog markets in S. Korea over the last few years.
  
  https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2019/07/12/dog-meat-protest-south-korea-hancocks-pkg-vpx.cnn
  
  My daughter and I wandered into the last legal dog market/restaurant in Chilseong, Daegu by mistake in 2016…..Most unsettling.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:34am
  - curry4me
    
    Maggy Wassilieff: I lived in Inchon for a while in 2003. On a walk one day, I heard dogs barking. There were several dog kennels on the edge of a rice paddy. I wondered what they were doing there. Later, in Icheon 45 minutes out of Seoul, there was a dog farm near the academy. It took a while for the penny to drop. I told myself I’d try dog next summer. Never got around to it though. there was also a dog restaurant near my friends’ diner in Jeonju.
    
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    April 14, 2020 1:29pm
- Ruahine
  
  It is also very unlikely that you will see Greta Thunberg and her travelling circus holding up placards and doing staged interviews in Tiananmen Square any time soon.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:57am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Try making a donation to the Humane Society International or the Duo Duo Project – both are active, particularly against the dog trade. The World Wildlife Fund is also very active against the wild animal trade.
  Hopefully none of these organisations are too left wing for you to consider supporting.
  
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  April 14, 2020 12:48pm
- Durden
  
  Let’s also look at horse meat trade in Europe while we are at it.
  
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  April 15, 2020 4:04am
RW Capitalist

AM show having a pop at Trump again.
Dear Duncan
USA pop. approx 330 mill…
Covid 19 deaths……approx. 23000
EU pop. approx 450mill
Covid 19 deaths approx 45000
1/3 more pop., double the deaths.
Also the USA is a federalist country, ie each state is like a country in it’s own right and GOVERNORS are in charge, the federal govt. can only OFFER help in this case.
Note:
The Dems have been blocking the aid packages in the house.
The worst centres for this disease are States/Cities with Democrat Governors/ mayors.
New York even left 100’s of ventilators in a warehouse, that they had be supplied by the federal govt. (to add, it was a warehouse of New York’s choosing).
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April 14, 2020 9:38am
- MrTips
  
  USA deaths also 14th on list of deaths/M
  Well behind Spain, Switzerland, France, UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium, Italy…….
  
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  April 14, 2020 9:59am
RW Capitalist

19 new infection yesterday
but only around 2000 tested (they said 1/2 the normal number)
Last week 44 in one day 4000 tested.
How is it getting better, in that time 4 people have died.
My summation.
With long distant past learning of the nature of statistics.
The sample (tests) is about 1/10 of what it should be to create any conclusions as to trend or actual fact.
Think
How many were not tested, where were they and what conclusions can you make about the non tested?
A:
Millions (4.5mill)
Who knows
NO Conclusions remotely possible.
So what they are saying, could be described as fairy tales.
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April 14, 2020 9:47am
- rightoverlabour
  
  They could stop testing and say with absolute honesty that there were no new cases. Nobody has any idea of how many cases there are, besides the ones that have tested positive. Further, with so many false positives and negatives, how do we know the tests results are accurate? It’s all political spin. Eventually when this is is all over, unless they test every person in the country for antibodies to the disease, will we get get a true picture of what the situation was really like.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:11am
- PhilBest
  
  Bear in mind that of those tested, something like 95% are testing negative. What are the implications of that? They could test more people and get a whole lot more negative results and still not catch any new cases of infections.
  
  I think we’re lucky in NZ, the medical authorities are not “discovering infections” in the form of people calling ambulances with difficulty breathing; they’re able to take their time and test pretty much everyone who calls in with the sniffles. That’s how I’m reading it.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:19am
  - RW Capitalist
    
    Q;
    Those testing negative today, will they be retested?
    As they may get it next week.
    All they can say, is “They haven’t got it now (yet).
    Their pathetic level of testing, makes this “whack a mole” at best.
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:00am
    - PhilBest
      
      I’d say they will get retested if their symptoms change and worsen. But I’d also say it is now unlikely that they will contract COVID-19.
      
      Something we also don’t know, is how many people tested, have actually had a COVID-19 infection and developed immunity to it before they were tested. Antibodies testing has started in some parts of the world and is showing some interesting statistics.
      
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      April 14, 2020 2:18pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  They don’t do random testing so their extrapolation to national population statistics is deliberately wrong. Lying by obfuscation?
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:40am
- RW Capitalist
  
  Learned today, only 1.1% of the pop. has been tested.
  Ridiculous, there is no way to extrapolate anything at that level.
  
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  April 14, 2020 6:49pm
barnacle bill

Malaria Drugs under review because of potential heart failure.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12324540
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April 14, 2020 9:54am
- cmm
  
  All drugs have side effects. Do not eat them like lollies.
  
  You want side effects: go look at the heart meds that about 20% of the NZ over-60 population take.
  
  Consider warfarin. a commonly used anti-coagulant. It was used in rat poison but was too dangerous and is now no longer used in rat poison. Too dangerous for killing rats, but fine for heart patients!
  
  Hydroxychloroquine has been in use for over 50 years at billions of doses a year and is pretty well understood.
  
  Doctors should be prescribing drugs based on the risk/reward curve that they are very good at navigating. If they can do this for warfarin, then they can do it for HCQ.
  
  Unfortunately all sense has left the room and this has become a completely political around Orange Man Bad.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:30am
  - barnacle bill
    
    @cmm
    I have no view on those drugs at all cmm.
    All I did was post the link.
    
    And as a person well into his seventies, I also do not take a single pill to keep me alive, and hope I never will need to.
    I have always been very particular just what crap I put down my throat.
    And it is not good luck that I have great health, it was my choice to take care of myself.
    
    A pity more people did not do so.
    
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    April 14, 2020 10:40am
    - kevn
      
      @bb… Maybe your family DNA plays a part as well? Because it does.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:55am
      - barnacle bill
        
        @kevn. Yes, I have a view that it can play its part, but not always.
        I have a brother who is around two and a half years older than myself, who choose to become an alcoholic and has spent the last eight years in a rest home.
        I used to ask him, what do you think is going to happen to you, and his stock answer was, I love beer.
        I think it killed many of his brain cells.
        
        We cannot help the helpless.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:50am
    - RW Capitalist
      
      You posted the link to get a reaction to YOUR opinion.
      The article is promoting a totally inaccurate premise.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:57am
    - cmm
      
      Good on you Bill.
      
      I was in your camp (although a bit younger). Healthy, only going to the medics for getting broken legs fixed etc. Then out of the blue three months ago I got hammered by Atrial Fibrillation (an odd-ball heart condition). All my heart markers (cholesterol etc) are 100% good, so it is not as if I KFC’d my way into this. It has taken about 2 months to regain fitness, but I now do some moderate work-outs + 7km walking daily. And it is a bugger now having to take 4 different meds, but at least that’s better than 5!
      
      I hope you don’t have to experience being propped up by the medical system like I have, but it isn’t the end of the road if you do. The system can only do so much. You can still make a good life of it so long as you do your part.
      
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      April 14, 2020 11:26am
      - barnacle bill
        
        @cmm
        The law of averages will finally catch up with me for sure.
        I have always thought that as I get older ill health could be only one day away at any time.
        
        It is just a fact of being a human, life is not endless.
        
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        April 14, 2020 11:57am
    - Happychappy
      
      Mind you BB when your young you do stupid things like I was sport mad and now I’m in my seventies and injuries play a big part in what I can or cannot do.
      
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      April 14, 2020 12:15pm
      - barnacle bill
        
        @happy
        Like wise HC.
        Being born and bred in the wop wops, all our social life revolved around sport. Table tennis mid week, as well as rugby training , weekend sport, winter was rugby, tennis or cricket in summer.
        
        I had a total knee replacement as a result.
        
        But otherwise, I loved sport as well and the social life that came with it.
        A fantastic time in ones life.
        
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        April 14, 2020 12:46pm
    - PhilBest
      
      Barnacle: some of it is luck. Quite a proportion of the people who have worked hard on taking care of themselves and keeping fit, have ended up suffering some unforeseen consequence OF their chosen activity. It should be far better known, for example, that DVT’s seem to occur from vigorous exertion just as much as they occur from prolonged immobility such as a plane flight. Many of the people on anticoagulant medication for the rest of their lives, are ex-athletes. Musculo-skeletal problems are also common from running and cycling. After a few decades of (negative) experience, I think the best-preserved people are the ones who focused on staying flexible – eg instead of going for a jog, they did yoga positions.
      
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      April 14, 2020 2:24pm
  - Batman
    
    Sigh….
    
    “A small (n = 440) Brazillian trial of chlorquine (not hydroxychloroquine) alongside azithromycin has been halted after 20 days because the drug had no benefit for #COVID19 patients and was killing people. https://t.co/omHLJCfQCR Do. Not. Recommend. Unproven. Therapies.”
    
    https://twitter.com/BrianDunning/status/1249825311354650629?s=19
    
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    April 14, 2020 11:39am
    - PhilBest
      
      Obvious question: what are the Brazilians doing wrong?
      
      http://jdmichel.blog.tdg.ch/archive/2020/03/24/covid-19-the-game-is-over-305275.html
      
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      April 14, 2020 2:31pm
- RW Capitalist
  
  It accumulates in the body.
  In, what is now 65 yrs since it’s initial approval, they have found heart problems ONLY in people who have been taking it for a very long time and only those who are taking twice the dose they are recommending for Covid 19.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:32am
cmm

The governments response has been the false choice between lives and the economy. They have chosen to “save lives” and completely root the economy.

Sure, either way there would have been some lives lost and some economic damage due to factors outside our control, but still they made most of the decision.

So what is the likely prognosis for those lives they have “saved”? Chances are that:
1) If you would have been reaped by Covid-19, but were “saved” then your immune system is highly compromised and you will quite possibly fall off your perch during flu season of causes other than Covid-19 (remember flu season is not just about flu).
2) In the Southern hemisphere we have not yet seen the full impact of Covid-19. That will happen in flu season.

So now we’re looking at Treasury models predicting 26% unemployment rates. Let that sink in.

That would be higher than the Great Depression.

The highest unemployment rate EVER in NZ history.

Now let’s say the decision about Covid-19 was left to just the people most affected, those most likely to die- the old and frail.

Would they vote for:
A) An extra few months of life, but stuffing up the economy and wrecking the lives of survivors (retirement saving, massive debt for their children and grandkids).
B) A 1-2% chance of dying a few months early, but better outcomes for everyone.

To me it is a no-brainer. Vote for B. I do not want my retirement savings trashed, I do not want my kids’ jobs and lives trashed. I don’t want my kids and grandkids (unborn) to be paying off debt 20 to 30 years from now.

The wrong choice has been made.
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April 14, 2020 9:58am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Being ultra socialists the economy is at the COL command.Their inadequacies are covered by their ideology-any failure to achieve just requires re-assignment: Wood for Twyford.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:35am
bruceavon

Epidemic Response Committee Very interesting today. Looking at the Aussie and Singapore response vs ours.
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April 14, 2020 10:09am
JibberJabber

Just most of us are thinking things couldn`t get much worse, the exclusion zone surrounding Chernobyl has burst into flame,
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8212397/Raging-forest-infernos-Chernobyl-Exclusion-Zone-close-exploded-nuclear-reactor.html

Armageddon? Fuckin` A, armageddon outta here…
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April 14, 2020 10:14am
- JibberJabber
  
  Not to forget the Locust plagues heading across East Africa, Pakistan,India and China earlier last month.
  
  https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3064637/china-has-been-battered-coronavirus-african-swine-fever-and
  
  Yippee ki yay.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:38am
KevO'Brien

It may be an observation from the USA but has relevance here too:-
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/road-perdition-paved-evil-intentions-part-1-feds-pimping-asset-bubbles-exposed
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April 14, 2020 10:20am
Happychappy

If CORID – 19 doesn’t cripple our economy and leave it with our Children and Grandchildren paying it off for years to come then the Greens and the Climate Change Commission led by Rod Carr certainly will with their latest demands.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/120969030/climate-change-commission-warns-dont-compound-covid19-with-climate-crisis
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April 14, 2020 10:21am
- KevO'Brien
  
  There isn’t room for two crises real or fake. The economy has already been done in, so it’s sayonara to the warmists.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:31pm
rightoverlabour

Really? https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/120969030/climate-change-commission-warns-dont-compound-covid19-with-climate-crisis

Got to keep the religion alive. Idiots.
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April 14, 2020 10:22am
- cmm
  
  Yup,
  
  Is it a coincidence that both use computer models which are completely broken to back them up?
  
  By completely broken, I mean that they change by a factor of ten or more and some people still believe them.
  
  We get presented with these as if they are based on hard science – something like gravity or such. We know most gravitational constants or whatever accurate to 8 decimal places and some more accurate than that.
  
  Climate models tell us we can expect between 100mm and 2 metres of sea level rise by 2100 (pick what suits the narrative).
  
  Infection modelling tells us 80,000 will die then a few days later 14,000 or 27,000 or whatever (pick what sounds best).
  
  This is not science. It is political bullshit.
  
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  April 14, 2020 10:37am
  - rightoverlabour
    
    The thing that bothers me is that when the country starts recovering, they will be pandering to these idiots. We need a revolution during the election. Trouble is the Labour Party have the eyes and ears of the whole country everyday, and no one gets to criticize on the MSM. I am so sick of hearing “well Jacinda isn’t doing a bad job… ” She is actually doing nothing except reading press releases. The same incompetence still lurks behind her….
    
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    April 14, 2020 10:42am
    - kevn
      
      @rol… A one pony show.
      
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      April 14, 2020 10:52am
- skyblue
  
  I am doing my bit for the climate.
  I am getting 4 days to the gallon.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:38am
2ic

The more I’ve been looking into COVID-19, the more I’m thinking it isn’t as much of a threat as some of the figures we are getting suggest – particularly for New Zealand and Australia, as we don’t have the population densities and air pollution problems that some of some of the worst hit areas have.

There’s a lot of cited studies on this website that are worth checking out:
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

Some key takeaways from this and other research I’ve done:

1. THE MAJORITY OF CASES ARE ASYMPTOMATIC, WHICH GREATLY REDUCES THE REPORTED MORTALITY RATES

Covid-19: four fifths of cases are asymptomatic, China figures indicate
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1375

“Chinese authorities began publishing daily figures on 1 April on the number of new coronavirus cases that are asymptomatic, with the first day’s figures suggesting that around four in five coronavirus infections caused no illness. Many experts believe that unnoticed, asymptomatic cases of coronavirus infection could be an important source of contagion.”

2. WHEN YOU SAMPLE ENTIRE POPULATION, MORTALITY IS MUCH LOWER THAN WE ARE LED TO BELIEVE

“In a serological pilot study, the German virologist Hendrick Streeck comes to the interim result that the lethality of Covid19 is at 0.37% and the mortality (based on the total population) at 0.06%. These values are about ten times lower than those of the WHO and about five times lower than those of Johns Hopkins University.”
https://www.land.nrw/sites/default/files/asset/document/zwischenergebnis_covid19_case_study_gangelt_0.pdf

“According to data from the best-studied countries such as South Korea, Iceland, Germany and Denmark, the overall lethality of Covid19 is in the lower per mille range and thus up to twenty times lower than initially assumed by the WHO.”

South Korea has tested 140,000 people for the coronavirus. That could explain why its death rate is just 0.6% — far lower than in China or the US
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/south-korea-coronavirus-testing-death-rate-2020-3?op=1&r=US&IR=T

In New Zealand, we have 5 deaths out of 1349 cases – or 0.37% mortality, and no one under 70 has died

3. AIR POLLUTION INCREASES MORTALITY – THIS IS NOT GENERALLY AN ISSUE IN NEW ZEALAND

Exposure to air pollution and COVID-19 mortality in the United States
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.05.20054502v1

“A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis.”

4. MANY FATALITIES COUNTED AS COVID-19 DEATHS THAT MAY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, INFLATING COVID-19 MORTALITY RATES

Why have so many coronavirus patients died in Italy?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/

“But Prof Ricciardi added that Italy’s death rate may also appear high because of how doctors record fatalities.
“The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.
“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,” he says.”

It sounds like the same thing may be happening in the USA – there’s a useful summary of the situation in this YouTube video:

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Questionable Death Certificates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfG9nmAnQp4

5. SOME EARLY ALARMISTS NEW ZEALAND MODELLING WRONG

Just 3 weeks ago we had horror headlines such as:

Covid 19 coronavirus: 80,000 Kiwis could die from coronavirus if no lockdown: research
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12320221

But even the Ministry of Health’s own modelling for “hypothetical uncontrolled spread” had a worst case scenario of a much lower 10,983 deaths (and no one is suggesting we allow “uncontrolled spread”):

Potential Age-Specific Health Impacts from Uncontrolled Spread of the COVID-19 Pandemic on the New Zealand Population Using the CovidSIM Model: Report to the NZ Ministry of Health
https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/report_for_moh_-_age-specific_impacts_covid-19_pandemic_final.pdf

Also, the infection rate (Reproductive Number – or R0) in countries with lower population densities like New Zealand and Australia is going to be lower than what we have seen in the likes of Italy and New York. We saw this in New Zealand in the 4 weeks leading up to the lockdown.

I see a group of health experts in New Zealand just this morning are saying we have over-reacted:

6. CORONAVIRUS: LOCKDOWN RULES SHOULD BE RELAXED, HEALTH EXPERTS SAY
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120984583/coronavirus-lockdown-rules-should-be-relaxed-health-experts-say
“Lockdown was appropriate when there was so little data…but the data is now clear, this is not the disaster we feared and prepared for. Elimination of this virus is likely not achievable and is not necessary.”

COVID-19 is certainly serious for those vulnerable groups (elderly and those with respiratory conditions and compromised immune systems), but I tend to agree with this groups conclusions. A better approach may be to isolate the vulnerable groups, and let the rest of the country get back to some sort of functioning state again – still with social distancing, good hand-washing etc. Otherwise the social and economic cost to the country is going to be far worse than the virus.
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April 14, 2020 10:31am
- burt
  
  All very well, but if we take the evidenced based approach how do we justify a sudden flip to globalist one world order?
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:09am
- cmm
  
  Let’s hope we have had high asymptomatic infections and thus built some herd immunity.
  
  If not there is a high chance we ain’t seen nothing yet and we’ll get hammered by a second wave in flu season.
  
  Paying the price of a smashed economy and still getting a full scale Covid19 outbreak would be a real bugger.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:13am
- KevO'Brien
  
  John Hopkins Uni. is a colleagues of Gates and his population control program.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:29pm
cmm

Why this use of cultural reports increasing? Isn’t there supposed to be one law for all?

I am white and was raised in apartheid-era South Africa. That cultural background has got to have some influence on the way I perceive people of a darker hue than I. Although I have put in a huge amount of effort to overcome those biases, there must be some residual racism ingrained in me by living in that situation.

If I did something terrible to a brown person would I be allowed to submit a cultural report and get some time off?

All hypothetical of course.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/120865555/the-rise-of-culture-reports-in-the-new-zealand-criminal-justice-system
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April 14, 2020 10:50am
- mikenmildagain
  
  It’s just one part of attempts to re-balance the justice system, which has historically convicted and imprisoned Maori at higher rates than Pakeha, for exactly the same offences.
  
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  April 14, 2020 11:39am
  - smttc
    
    Probably the reason Maori get imprisoned more for the same offence is because the offence in question is proceeded by a very long string of earlier offences.
    
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    April 14, 2020 12:32pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I’d have to check, but from when I was last familiar with this stuff 15 years ago, the justice outcomes for Maori are much worse, even controlling for all such factors.
      
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      April 14, 2020 1:50pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    What would Maori in the north do to Pakeha at present?
    
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    April 14, 2020 1:23pm
    - RW Capitalist
      
      Have the supermarkets up there, run out of food?
      
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      April 14, 2020 6:44pm
kevn

2ic… I’m not sure comrade JA would agree with anything you have said, because.
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April 14, 2020 10:51am
kowtow

Mediaworks “news” reporting the lock down has saved lives during the Easter break , no road toll.
No shit Sherlock!

OK , in that case how many lives have been lost due to the lock down . How many people on elctive surgery wait lists have died ?

Come on NZ MSM start doing your job of holding power to account and stop repeating govt PR spin.
35 1
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April 14, 2020 11:04am
- rightoverlabour
  
  Suicide stats?
  
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  April 14, 2020 12:19pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Try planning for Gypsy Day
    
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    April 14, 2020 7:38pm
- cmm
  
  4.8 million people have lost 4 weeks of their lives.
  
  That is 400,000 years of life. ie. about 5000 lives at 80 years per life.
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:22pm
RW Capitalist

Just rushed off to the phone:
Jehovah’s Witness
Phoning now that they can’t come to the door.
Nice young thing, wanted to read some uplifting passages from the bible.
No thanks….
But sounded much more genuine and caring than our PM.
Didn’t threaten me with hell and damnation (or prison) for some innocuous behaviour, like walking outside or heaven forbid surfing.
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April 14, 2020 11:10am
niggly

The Govt needs to stop panicking, show some leadership and look at the evidence that is surrounding it which is the CV19 threat is being contained (well done) and business and society needs to resume to normality (with conditions) before the economy is irreparably damaged.

There is no reason why NZ cannot transition to level 3 within 24 hours, then to level 2 within days.

Even the Govt’s own CV19 Threat Level assessments allow this! (Do they not even understand their own advice)?

It states:
Level 4 = Sustained and intensive transmission. Widespread outbreaks (….well we don’t have those)!

Level 3 = Community transmission occurring OR Multiple clusters break out (… well these were never widespread and any existing are being managed successfully)!

Leve1l 2 = High risk of importing COVID-19 OR Uptick in imported cases OR Uptick in household transmission OR Single or isolated cluster outbreak (… well these have largely been mitigated)!

https://covid19.govt.nz/assets/COVID_Alert-levels_v2.pdf

So according to the Govt’s own guidelines, NZ should now be at Level 3 or even Level 2!

For the sake of people’s well-being and job/house/family/life security, can the Govt please stop dithering and take action NOW!
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April 14, 2020 11:28am
Ruahine

Another great post by Cathie.

https://asianinvasion2019.blogspot.com/2020/04/by-definition-on-april-23-new-zealand.html
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April 14, 2020 11:32am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Excellent analysis showing we should be at level 1.
  
  Who is going to take responsibility for the enormous waste occasioned by them not reading their own guidelines?
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:21pm
Fletch

Listening to some vintage Styx today. Some verses just stood out to me –

Tonight’s the night we’ll make history, honey, you and I
And I’ll take any risk to tie back the hands of time
And stay with you here tonight

I know you feel these are the worst of times
I do believe it’s true
When people lock their doors and hide inside
Rumor has it it’s the end of Paradise
But I know, if the world just passed us by
Baby I know, you wouldn’t have to cry

The best of times are when I’m alone with you
Some rain some shine, we’ll make this a world for two
Our memories of yesterday will last a lifetime
We’ll take the best, forget the rest
And someday we’ll find these are the best of times
These are the best of times

The headlines read ‘these are the worst of times’
I do believe it’s true
I feel so helpless like a boat against the tide
I wish the summer winds could bring back Paradise
But I know, if the world turned upside down
Baby, I know you’d always be around

The best of times are when I’m alone with you
Some rain some shine, we’ll make this a world for two
Our memories of yesterday will last a lifetime
We’ll take the best, forget the rest
And someday we’ll find these are the best of times
These are the best of times

And so my friends we’ll say goodnight
For time has claimed it’s prize
But tonight will always last
As long as we keep alive memories of Paradise…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI7FNGTYvaY
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April 14, 2020 11:35am
Brian McDonald

With all our experts here busting at the seams about lifting the restrictions and getting children back to school I wonder if they’ve considered past the point of a few old folks dying in rest homes as not really mattering.
Here are some facts about another vulnerable part of our population:
“New Zealand has a high prevalence of asthma, with one in seven children (13 percent) aged 2–14 years (110,000 children) and one in eight adults (12 percent, 452,000 adults) reporting taking current asthma medication.Mar 19, 2020”
So I guess the ‘cleansing of the weak and health compromised’ not being a problem then neither is 13% of children and 12% of adults.
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April 14, 2020 11:39am
- Tall Man
  
  5 deaths with coronavirus, not necessarily “from”. Normally we have around 50 – 60 suicides per month, 35 – 45 road deaths plus many hundreds related to illness including influenza.
  
  Yep, it’s a “real” threat.
  
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  April 14, 2020 12:30pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    The Rosewood three are not from the virus but with it. They are from the closed hospital unit there for those with dementia and other illnesses typical in that age group. They are all patiently awaiting their expiry date.
    My wife and I sung there last Christmas.
    
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    April 14, 2020 1:13pm
  - MCos
    
    So it looks like the lockdown is working.
    Also worked for road deaths over Easter too, as it happened with no death for only the second time since records began. Not that I’m suggesting that’s a go reason to have a lockdown.
    
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    April 14, 2020 1:31pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Yes, asthma is a definite concern. I have a young son in law with it.
  Why do we have such a high asthma incidence in NZ?
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:17pm
- MrTips
  
  Brian: 34% of our cases are under 30. None have died. Very few, if any, have appeared in hospital. Asthma does not appear to be a major concern in the younger with COVID19. Don’t believe me?
  
  Peer reviewed data from China: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32077115
  
  Don’t believe that either?
  
  Well, with 1.9M cases worldwide, you can bet your bottom dollar if asthma was a real issue it would have emerged by now. All we have are recommendations from the CDC and like: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/asthma.html
  
  Not saying it can’t be a problem. There’s no evidence for it yet though, like there is for age, CVD and diabetes.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:50pm
Jack5

The Climate Change Commission is capitalising on the Covid-19 pandemic.

Spending to control the virus mustn’t be allowed to derail the emissions trading scheme, urges a letter to the Government by commission chairman Rod Carr.

Stuff describes the commission as an “expert panel”.

Carr is an economist, and chairs the Reserve Bank, for which he once worked. Carr is the former vice-chancellor (manager) of Canterbury University. Under his administration, the university, where Rutherford once studied and Popper once taught, was diluted with a centre of Ngai Tahu tribal lore, Maori oral history and kapa haka studies.

Membership of the Climate Change Commission:

Carr; Lisa Tumahai, deputy chair of the commission and a Ngai Tahu kaiwhakahaere (leader); the chief executive, Jo Hendry, who for seven years worked for the Motu climate think tank; Catherine Leining, who worked in Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project in America and also worked for Motu; James Renwick, geography professor at Victoria University; Nicola Shadbolt, farm management professor at Massey, and like Carr, a former director of Fonterra; Harry Clark, director of the State-funded Agricultural Greenhouse Gas Research Centre at Palmerston North; and Judy Lawrence, of the geography school at Victoria University.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/120969030/climate-change-commission-warns-dont-compound-covid19-with-climate-crisis
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April 14, 2020 11:53am
- Jack5
  
  Whoops? I don’t think Carr is a former director of Fonterra. Sorry!
  
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  April 14, 2020 12:09pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  What a star studded cast cast of twadllers. Collective brain mass 100gm.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:08pm
- adamsmith1922
  
  Be afraid, very afraid
  
  3 2
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  April 14, 2020 3:48pm
Fletch

Watch Dr Anthony Fauci from January saying that the coronavirus is “not a major threat for the people of the United States and is not something the citizens of the United States should be worried about”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqg2kQDlPKw

And yes, he is the expert in infectious diseases who has advised presidents since Reagan in 1984 and who advised Trump. So, if Trump was telling the people there wasn’t much to worry about, he most likely got that advice from Fauci. A president can only listen to his supposed experts.
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April 14, 2020 12:08pm
- rightoverlabour
  
  A bit like Jacinda….
  
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  April 14, 2020 12:18pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  He’s also a colleague of Gates, the Eugenicist and Controller.
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:06pm
- All_on_Red
  
  Fauci has clarified this by pointing out he based his remarks after being told by WHO and China that the Virus was only being passed from animal to human.
  We now know he was lied to.
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:03pm
  - cmm
    
    If you are supposed to be THE authority in the land then you should not be duped by a lie.
    
    You check and verify before passing on such information, especially in a time like this when people don’t need a changing message.
    
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    April 14, 2020 2:10pm
MrTips

Interesting. David Skegg, in a clear statement to the epidemic committee, wants us back to level 2. Simon Thornley, and other academics as indicated above, also advocate a relaxing of the hammer. When, is the issue. Skegg was good today, advocating for a combined group of academics, business and bueracrats to decide this intricacy.

But what is clear, to me at least, that Shaun Hendy has no idea what he’s doing on this issue. Ignore him is my opinion. Siouxsie Wiles, who stated we won’t get an outbreak of COVID here, also said America was going to be REALLY bad and expressed disdain for the Swedish reaction, has also shown to be not a reliable commenter. And yet, these two dominate the media coverage with their inaccuracies. Grrrrr…….
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April 14, 2020 12:30pm
- cmm
  
  Well to be fair to the lady who appropriates Native American names, we have not really had an outbreak here…. yet.
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:08pm
  - MrTips
    
    Yup, she’d definitely say 80+ case cluster in Bluff from an airline attendant and 35 case cluster from a stag do in Auckland with no clear origin aren’t an outbreak…….
    
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    April 14, 2020 2:18pm
- adamsmith1922
  
  Wiles is an Ardern luvvy, who should be ignored, just like Nigel Latta
  
  11 1
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  April 14, 2020 3:50pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  If only Covid was Bioluminescent.
  
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  April 14, 2020 7:29pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwjDoQVE-t4
Should the USA ‘co-operate’ with China to fight the CCP virus?
They get to lie and cheat, while the US gives them money.
Don’t blame the CCP. That’d be ‘racist’, and ‘xenophobic’.
No complaining, and finger pointing. Chinas’ shills are working overtime.
Maybe the 50 cent army will get a pay rise, or overtime. There’s a move to
re-locate supply chains.
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April 14, 2020 12:33pm
curry4me

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/12/anticipation-over-u-s-attorney-john-durhams-investigation-builds/

Durham has moved to DC to continue his investigation of ‘Spygate’. Indictments are expected in summer to avoid accusations of electioneering.
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April 14, 2020 12:33pm
RW Capitalist

The equality of lock down.
Starkly presented, by TV3’s personal sporting moments.
Where people film their sporting antics under lock down.
One I remember, a guy hit a tennis ball over his house, ran through his house, caught the ball on the other side (impressive, but not my point), after which he fell into his INFINITY POOL (now thats my point).
We can’t even go to the local swimming pool or if we wanted to brave the cold…beach.
Reports walking around free while patronizing me as I am FORCED to stay home.
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April 14, 2020 12:35pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  You think swimming in a small pool at home poses a public health risk? Or do you feel he should not have a swimming pool at all, or be banned from using his while you can’t go swimming?
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:48pm
  - Classic Liberal
    
    On Country Life last Saturday a farmer was pointing out that she and her family didn’t post pictures of their space and picnics on Facebook, because they don’t want to rub in the contrast with urban lockdown.
    
    Remember Taxinda’s call for kindness? You don’t rub in on your advantages when your friends are suffering.
    
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    April 14, 2020 4:14pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Really. The guy posted a humorous video. You sound bitter and jealous.
      
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      April 14, 2020 6:37pm
oldfella

Trump hits back at the media – hard not to like this guy…
https://thenationalpulse.com/news/trump-exposing-media-own-video-words/
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April 14, 2020 12:39pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  “I’ll ask you some questions, because you are so guilty”
  Love it! Tear them a new arsehole Trump
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:41pm
Happychappy

How long will it take this corrupt Government to start to crow about the zero road toll over Easter, these muppets are stupid enough for one or two of them to get up and grandstand on the fact as their supporters would stupid to understand.
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April 14, 2020 12:45pm
- niggly
  
  Betcha JAG will be the first to crow – she seems to have little “self awareness”! Otherwise who else fits that criteria … oh and maybe Jacinda!
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:02pm
Jack5

The PR kicks in at Red Radio…

Bold headline at RNZ web site:

Epidemic Response Committee meeting discusses how Covid-19 has affected the economy

It’s the response that’s rooting the economy, not Covid-19. Consider Taiwan, where businesses continue operating.

Latest Taiwan Covid-19 toll figures:

393 cases; 6 deaths; population 23. 6 million.
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April 14, 2020 12:53pm
Wired-one

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/04/mps-question-new-zealand-s-covid-19-lockdown-as-australia-s-lighter-approach-produces-similar-results.html

This is exactly how I feel. We should’ve kept as many jobs viable as possible.
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April 14, 2020 12:58pm
Wired-one

Well my father passed away last Thursday. As you can imagine a death in the family at this time is harder than usual. Thanks to those of you who know me and have sent kind messages, it’s much appreciated.
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April 14, 2020 12:59pm
- Poppa
  
  Bloody sorry to hear that wired
  
  I am shaking my head at what is masquerading as a govt
  
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  April 14, 2020 6:29pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Alexa, how long will the corona virus last?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQu6GQ3G5r4
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April 14, 2020 1:00pm
Inandout

NZME is laying off staff so will the reporters remain locked in the left, or will they suddenly say ‘stuff it’ and start telling us the truth? Looks like community papers are history as well.
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April 14, 2020 1:17pm
Stu2

The NZ death rate is now 1.62% (9 dead, 546 recovered, rate=9/(9 546)

It is similar to oz which was at 1.72% a day ago (61 dead, 3494 recovered, rate=(61/(61 3494)

Australia is doing better on cases (249 per million vs 283 for NZ) with a less restrictive control regime.
I wonder how much our slow start to testing contributed to this, and our poorly enforced honesty regime for returning kiwis
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April 14, 2020 1:27pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  The State of Victoria Population 6.3M; largest city (Melbourne )- 4M
  
  Had 10 new cases today – total: 1291 cases
  14 deaths so far.
  
  Their more relaxed form of social distancing seems to be just as effective as NZ’s.
  https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/victoria-extends-state-of-emergency-lockdown-for-another-four-weeks-despite-recording-just-three-new-coronavirus-cases-overnight/ar-BB12uKsu
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:16pm
Nickc2

The WHO supports the re-opening of Chinese Wet Markets FFS!
Are Cindy and Winston jumping on the band-wagon with the Australians to prevent this happening? Certainly haven’t seen anything about it to date.
https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2020/04/who-supports-chinese-move-to-reopen-disgusting-wet-markets.html
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April 14, 2020 1:35pm
- Critical Thinker
  
  What else would you expect from the Chinese Health Organisation (WHO)….
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1a4Pq5GQBc
  
  9 2
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  April 14, 2020 2:14pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Open question to our Foreign Minister: How much money do we contribute annually to the WHO?
    Come on Winston, it’s taxpayer money.
    
    8 2
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    April 14, 2020 3:07pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Answering to saving you from having to do your own research, or wasting public service time by asking MFAT: about $US 350,000 per year in assessed contributions. There will probably be other payments for specific funds or projects too.
      
      4 6
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      April 14, 2020 4:08pm
      - Nickc2
        
        A complete waste of money. What do we get for it? Oh, that’s right, it’s called ‘bragging rights’, whereby Winston can comment on the cocktail circuit that “yes, we donated to that cause and last I heard, it was doing well” as he grabbed another glass of Champers of a passing waiter’s tray. That’s probably about all we can expect and get.
        
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        April 14, 2020 4:27pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        How surprising. I’m sure that no matter what the amount (that you couldn’t look up for yourself), you would consider it a waste.
        I think it is money well spent, so I guess we’re even.
        
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        April 14, 2020 4:50pm
      - cha
        
        $1,421,574US
        
        https://www.who.int/about/finances-accountability/funding/revised-2019-invoice/nzl_en.pdf?ua=1
        
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        April 14, 2020 5:05pm
- MCos
  
  Wet markets probably aren’t the problem so much as the species of different animals that are sold there.
  There’s probably thousands of them throughout China and SE Asia.
  You want them shut down. Good luck.
  
  4 2
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  April 14, 2020 3:28pm
Peter Lane

It’s ok when Hone does it…

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120998428/coronavirus-hone-harawira-says-600km-trip-meal-with-family-in-auckland-was-safe
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April 14, 2020 1:43pm
- rightoverlabour
  
  You go and tell him luv….
  
  “This is a big no,” said Associate Professor Siouxsie Wiles, from the University of Auckland’s Bioluminescent Superbugs Lab.
  
  11 1
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  April 14, 2020 1:45pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  It’s not okay when anyone does it.
  How hard is it to understand? Stay the fuck at home:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTODB54JalU
  
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  April 14, 2020 1:46pm
  - cmm
    
    You tell him eh?
    
    9 2
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    April 14, 2020 2:03pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      He’s not exactly in my bubble atm, but if I do see him I’ll be sure to do that.
      
      3 6
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      April 14, 2020 3:59pm
- cmm
  
  If he had a meal with the family that would be terrible.
  
  But it was kai with the whanau so that’s got to be Ok.
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:02pm
- Inandout
  
  Wally Yamaha won’t say a word. Hone is king I suspect.
  
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  April 14, 2020 3:12pm
- adamsmith1922
  
  Hone thinks he is above the law, well what do you expect when NZ Police support illegal roadblocks and vigilantism see https://adamsmith.wordpress.com/2020/04/14/why-are-the-nz-police-supporting-vigilante-thugs/
  
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  April 14, 2020 3:54pm
surfing

Hone Harawira is allowed to travel around, so why not me?

He had some bullshit excuse, but, he is not medical or essential .

I could make up better excuses than him.
He goes on about protecting his ‘people’, but he is putting them most at risk. Jerk. I bet the cops are too cowardly to prosecute either.
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April 14, 2020 1:52pm
- kowtow
  
  If the new Head Plod wanted to show how very seriously they were taking the lock down they’d take Hone’s scalp , pour encourage les autres , you see.
  
  But they won’t , so they aren’t but the rest of us are.
  
  And trust goes out the window.
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:20pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Yes, it’s things like this that contribute to the lack of respect some NZers have for their Police. Come on Andrew Little, where are you on this blatant disregard for the law? Oh, that’s right, one rule for this race and another law for that race. Now where have I heard that before? Oh, that’s right, didn’t we have orchestrated civil disobedience against what was called apartheid at the time?
    
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    April 14, 2020 2:55pm
    - adamsmith1922
      
      See the questions I raised in my post on this issue, https://adamsmith.wordpress.com/2020/04/14/why-are-the-nz-police-supporting-vigilante-thugs/ plus of course this statement by one of the roadblock leaders “Nonetheless, the iwi have their own ways of getting their message across. Rapihana is frank about it.
      
      “A lot of our bushmen are those people who can deal with that kind of stuff [conflict],” Rapihana says of the larger iwi members who have been asked to man the borders.
      
      “And actually, when people see them it tames it down anyway. Because they’re scary people.”
      
      Why is there no media outrage about this illegal activity
      
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      April 14, 2020 3:59pm
  - burt
    
    They just have to give him a written warning, that is the process. I’m-special-and-can-go-mountain-bike-riding-and-to-the-beach Clark should have received two warnings.
    
    Why do these people not have the process specifically designed to deal with this applied ?
    
    All animals are equal Comrade.
    
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    April 14, 2020 3:40pm
- burt
  
  But it is good to see where the special skin colour money gets spent.
  
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  April 14, 2020 3:58pm
I remember when

Does the virus work to a mathematical formula. I Don’t Remember When the worldometers info figures weren’t Active: Mild 96% Serious 4% and Closed: Recovered 79% Deaths 21%. Surely with changing totals it would be unlikely for the to be the case
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April 14, 2020 2:02pm
I remember when

He is essentially Hone!
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April 14, 2020 2:04pm
Maggie Pie

A work colleague was telling me last night that he has seen reports coming out of China, that white foreigners going about their normal business, are being beaten up on the streets by random Chinamen! Slurs are being hurled at them, things like; “American Virus!” and “Foreign Virus!”, with shops and hospitals now refusing entry to them.
I just told my partner about it and he found this behaviour almost unbelievable. He has been going to a popular Chinese restaurant down at the Viaduct for years with his friends, and never once have they experienced anything remotely like this, either from the staff, or other Chinese diners. Times are a changing it would seem 🙁
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April 14, 2020 2:25pm
- kowtow
  
  If that’s true , and there appears to be something in it , it shows an unravelling in China , as it is a very heavily policed society where that kind of thing was rare ( in my very limited reading of such matters)
  
  It’s possibly a reaction to their own govt’s propaganda that this is a foreign thing . So one could say those people died from covid too.
  
  https://www.scmp.com/article/1006528/man-stabbed-death-latest-attack-foreigner
  
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  April 14, 2020 2:53pm
cmm

The whole cluster (inc. a death) were caused by an asymptomatic flight attendant infecting others.

There is no more perfect vector than a flight attendant that moves up and down isles in an aircraft cabin, exposing themselves to hundreds of people at short distance. Then a few hours later they’re on a different flight exposing themselves to hundreds more.

Somehow, the rules were that flight crews did not have to self isolate and, instead, could go party with large groups of people.

Dumb rules with dumb exceptions have dumb outcomes.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120996246/coronavirus-bluff-grooms-father-dies-of-covid19-in-wellington-hospital
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April 14, 2020 2:51pm
- kowtow
  
  Anyone else a bit uncomfortable about how the Media seem to want to nail the flight attendant ?
  
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  April 14, 2020 3:10pm
  - burt
    
    We’ve all been there at some time in our travelling past.
    
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    April 14, 2020 3:52pm
    - kowtow
      
      male flight attendant?
      
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      April 14, 2020 3:54pm
- burt
  
  It’s a damn shame that date in March that we were keeping the borders open for wasn’t in early March.
  
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  April 14, 2020 3:43pm
  - cmm
    
    It’s a bigger shame the damn Aussie bastard didn’t just stay in Oz.
    
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    April 14, 2020 4:12pm
Gravelroad

Apologies if this has already been discussed in the 400 or so comments above, but- what’s the go with this stag party Covid19 cluster in Auckland that is being protected by the officials “for privacy reasons”?
There’s been sod all privacy afforded to the people in other clusters- especially the Bluff wedding.
Is it that some at the stag party have friends in high places? Left wing celebs/politicians maybe?
Is this another Labour Party cover up?
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April 14, 2020 3:08pm
- burt
  
  In terms of spilling private info it’s hard to get a better example than our first covid death where dear leader was telling everyone how the lady was known to staff and had serious health issues. But I guess like Helen Clark, our PM will say the PM can’t leak.
  
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  April 14, 2020 3:53pm
- artemisia
  
  There are stag parties where a few mates get together for a low-alc beer or two. Then there are the other sort. So I have been informed.
  
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  April 14, 2020 5:36pm
- Poppa
  
  Just imagine if a close associate of the PM was there
  
  That would be news now wouldn’t it
  
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  April 14, 2020 6:36pm
JibberJabber

Never tell the Queen she smells of mothballs and Elderberries….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rQVGphmhg4&feature=emb_logo
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April 14, 2020 3:09pm
Prince

Anyone else notice how the saying ‘to protect the most vulnerable’ is now used so often as to become meaningless ?
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April 14, 2020 3:24pm
- kowtow
  
  It was always meaningless.
  Coming from a govt that wanted to make access to abortion a virtue.
  
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  April 14, 2020 3:53pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  No. could you provide examples?
  
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  April 14, 2020 3:56pm
cmm

Some political shenanigans seem to be going on in MoH.

I just got told by the GP that they had to push out all non-funded flu jabs until after 28th April.

Why is this I wonder? Another cock up running out of supplies? Trying to fudge the numbers to have something to crow about?
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April 14, 2020 4:04pm
- MrTips
  
  Well, given we have no genuine minister of health, then anything is possible. Word is, Grant Robertson is effectively running the MoH now, which Fletcher’s are loving……
  
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  April 14, 2020 5:15pm
- Inandout
  
  cmm, had mine last Thursday with the heaps of other all age groups waiting in line.
  
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  April 14, 2020 5:34pm
rightoverlabour

Especially for those that hate Trump….

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/supercut-video-president-trump-just-played-white-house-press-briefing
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April 14, 2020 4:05pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Awesome. Now link to his epic rant about how unfair the media has been to him.
  
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  April 14, 2020 4:47pm
I remember when

Give them owl – WHO< WHO< WHO
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April 14, 2020 4:32pm
greybeard

John Kirwan, cashing-in as usual.
3 5
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April 14, 2020 5:11pm
trout

The Trump press conference was very entertaining but he does go on a bit. However a reprise of Civid19 timelines is pertinent (since the TDS media wilfully misrepresent Trump’s actions):

Timeline for CCP Virus in America
============================
– Jan 14, WHO declared no evidence of human-to-human transmission of virus.
– **** Jan 16 – Democrat Impeachment Process Started
– Jan 21, Dr. Fauci makes this statement about the Coronavirus: ““This is not a major threat to the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States should be worried about right now,”
– Jan 23, At an emergency committee convened by the World Health Organization, the WHO says that the Wuhan coronavirus does not yet constitute a public health emergency of international concern.
– Jan 28, Chinese President Xi Jinping meets with WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom in Beijing. At the meeting, Xi and the WHO agree to send a team of international experts, including US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention staff, to China to investigate the coronavirus outbreak.
– Jan 29, The White House announces the formation of a new task force that will help monitor and contain the spread of the virus.
– Jan 31, Trump bans travel from Wuhan, press cites “experts” claiming it is counterproductive.
– Feb 1, Florence holds “Hug a Chinese Person Day”.
– Feb 4, President Trump dedicates part of State of the Union Address to the Coronavirus issue. Nancy Pelosi tore up her copy of this address on national television.
– **** Feb 5 – Democrat Impeachment Process Ends
– Feb 9, NYC holds Chinatown parade with assurances of no danger from the mayor
– Feb 23, 1st evidence of community transfer within U.S.
– Feb 24, Pelosi says to shop more: “‘Come to Chinatown … come join us”
– Feb 25, Mardi Gras was held with few people sounding warnings
– Feb 26, Pence takes over task force, daily briefings begin.
– March 1, just 42 confirmed cases in U.S.
– March 3, NYC mayor encourages New Yorkers to go to the movies.
– March 5, NYC mayor rides the subway to assure people it is safe to do so.
– March 11, WHO acknowledged a pandemic scale virus on March 11
The rest is history … in one month the US goes from 42 confirmed cases to over 500,000 … most of which are in Democrat controlled States.’
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April 14, 2020 5:28pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Do you really expect people to just lap up any old partisan bullshit?
  
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  April 14, 2020 6:26pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Three sentences on the coronavirus in the SOTU in early February. And you note Pelosi tearing up the speech as if that was somehow relevant?
  
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  April 14, 2020 6:30pm
Lucia Maria

Down grade the lockdown before the polar blast hits us!

Weather: Cold wintry blast arrives as snow falls in the south

Who wants to stand outside in supermarket queue in truly bad weather?

Luckily, I can send my husband, but not everyone is so fortunate.
9 3
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April 14, 2020 5:56pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  People to frail to queue should be availing themselves of the delivery services, or asking family, friends, or neighbours to help.
  
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  April 14, 2020 6:24pm
- rightoverlabour
  
  Yup and this virus seems to like cooler weather….
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvCI-gNK_y4
  
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  April 14, 2020 7:10pm
Fletch

Father of the groom at that Bluff wedding dies of Covid-19… ?
He is one of the nine dead in New Zealand.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/father-groom-in-bluff-wedding-dies-covid-19
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April 14, 2020 6:21pm
Swifty

For nasska:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12324721
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April 14, 2020 7:39pm
Rich Prick

Just a few days ago I was rebuked by a moderator and had a comment deleted for poking a bit of fun at fat aviation security guards running around the hills of Miramar looking for criminals out for a walk on Easter Sunday. Think about the premise of that for a moment and imagine the Miramar Hills, the fatter ones wouldn’t have made 500 meters. Never mind them managing it vertically. I suggested that Crims hinting they may be easily disassembled by an explodey might have lowered their BMI. I think that was the offending bit, not that I see it anywhere in the comments policy.

But this is more about Kiwiblog. A few lefties jumped down my throat demanding more authoritarianism, as they always do.

But I was really surprised that this blog did the same thing. So, I’m off, great knowing you economic liberals and social conservatives. The leftie wankers heave caused this place to self-censor way too much for my liking. The pussy hats have won. Wear your’s with a frown.
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April 14, 2020 11:43pm

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