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October 22, 2020 4:00pm by David Farrar

Hmmmmn

So what happened last year? Will we see more of this in the next three years?

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Comment70

NZ Politics
Uncategorized
strikes

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Comments (70)

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sooty

Shit it’s just as well it’s not labour in government, they would hate to have that record hanging around their neck!
Imagine the easy run the unions would give them and the rewards given in return!
37 1
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October 22, 2020 4:07pm
Fentex

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Oh nonsense.

Ten people not working for one day is NOT 10 days work lost – it’s one days work.

Such measurements as above are an effort to create a fictional context to misdirect people.

A better way to do the same thing would be to sum the cost of labour NOT done – for it both represents a measure of the work not done and lost opportunity for production, within an honest context.
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October 22, 2020 4:07pm
- Adolf Fiinkensein
  
  Do you seriously believe what you write?
  
  54 3
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  October 22, 2020 4:16pm
  - RW Capitalist
    
    “Tomorrow’s schools”?
    Wasn’t that Labour too?
    Imagine what rubbish this Future employment will produce?
    
    19 0
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    October 22, 2020 5:21pm
  - Fentex
    
    Do you bother actually considering it?
    
    2 17
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    October 22, 2020 6:36pm
    - WaveyDavey
      
      I wouldn’t imagine anyone would given it’s total crap
      
      The days lost is the internationally recognised measure.
      
      10 people not working for a day is absolutely 10 lost work days.
      
      I hope to god nobody has left you in charge of a potato let alone anything more challenging for you.
      
      Say a carrot…
      
      22 1
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      October 22, 2020 6:42pm
      - Yabster
        
        correct- but dear old Fentex would say anything to deflect any evidence this government is a dismal failure- guaranteed more strikes and more treaty claims- the latest one being Maori woman shearers being treated badly in the shearing sheds- that may be so but I fail to see why it is in front of that waste of space/money tribunal?
        
        4 0
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        October 23, 2020 8:23am
      - jgw739
        
        Yabster. Is that actually a thing? FFS there were no sheep here 200 years ago
        
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        October 23, 2020 7:46pm
    - rockape
      
      If 10 men work on building my house for one day each, how many days Labour should I pay for, one or ten?
      
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      October 23, 2020 10:01am
- RW Capitalist
  
  and what level of stupid did you score?
  “Ten people not working for one day is NOT 10 days work lost”
  really??????
  If 10 people build your house and it takes 30 days.
  You only pay for 30 days?
  NO
  you will receive a wage bill of 300 days or 1800 hrs @ &60/hr = $108 000 not $14 400.
  
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  October 22, 2020 4:18pm
  - Fentex
    
    Exactly why I pointed out a more accurate way to consider it is about the cost of the labour not spent, rather than inaccurately about a sum of time that in reality happens concurrently, not, as is inappropriately implied serially.
    
    I think this sort of thing is important because such terms and language effect understanding – which is exactly why people pick terms that favour the point they wish to make and influence people with.
    
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    October 22, 2020 6:40pm
    - WaveyDavey
      
      …such terms and language effect understanding…
      
      Oh dear
      
      10 0
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      October 22, 2020 6:43pm
    - Adolf Fiinkensein
      
      You need someone to mansplain to you the meaning of man days.
      
      12 0
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      October 22, 2020 6:49pm
      - sooty
        
        A woman!
        
        3 0
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        October 22, 2020 8:04pm
    - Local Miller
      
      Would it make you feel better if we called them “Man Days Lost”? Or Woman obviously, or whatever gender you prefer. The reason “man days” or simply “days” is used is because it eliminates the need to calculate things like wages which vary from worker to worker. 10 people on a job may earn anything from minimum wage to $60+ an hour, so which rate do you want to use?
      
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      October 22, 2020 8:18pm
    - Debsta
      
      Oh lordy Fentex, you just keep doubling down on demonstrating your complete lack of basic mathematical reasoning. Please stop.
      
      I totally agree misrepresentations of data and simplistic terms are often used to support nefarious arguments. But manhours and workdays are NOT that, just accepted standard measurements to allow meaningful comparisons!
      
      Moving along now…
      
      5 1
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      October 22, 2020 9:12pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Hmmm
  There are about 2.6 million employees in New Zealand. A full year’s work is about 234 days, so there are roughly 610 million days of work in NZ per year.
  So, the amount of work time lost went up from 200 out of 600 million to about 140,000 out of 610 million, ie 0.00003% to o.0025% – clearly an intolerable burden on the economy.
  Fun with statistics!
  
  4 35
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  October 22, 2020 4:19pm
  - RW Capitalist
    
    2.6 million…huh?
    and the unions say that only one in 10 are in unions
    so thats 260,000 and I understand about 20% of those are public service who were the main protagonists…ie teachers nurses etc
    so now your number is out of about 60000 not 2.6 million
    which turns your numbers to about 5%
    ain’t statistics fun.
    When you use the right numbers.
    
    30 1
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    October 22, 2020 5:13pm
  - JamesP
    
    Still a difference of 3-4 orders a magnitude wherever you place the decimal.
    
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    October 22, 2020 11:45pm
  - Yabster
    
    get a grip Mike- the cost would have been huge- don’t you think comrade?
    
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    October 23, 2020 8:26am
- Spam
  
  Ten people not working for one day is NOT 10 days work lost – it’s one days work.
  Only in government bureaucracies.
  
  47 2
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  October 22, 2020 4:28pm
  - gump
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    The number is designed to scare you into thinking that a large number of days are being lost. It is a misuse of statistics because it is compared only to itself – it is not compared to other causes of lost productivity.
    
    By way of an example:
    
    The average NZ worker is estimated to use around 3.1 sick days in any given year.
    
    Multiplying this by the estimated workforce of 2.6 million people results in the ‘startling’ conclusion that over 8 million work days are lost to workers using sick days in NZ in any given year.
    
    Or in other words, the industrial action in 2019 had almost sixty times less impact than workers using sick days.
    
    3 35
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    October 22, 2020 4:43pm
    - RW Capitalist
      
      Go join fentex in the stupid corner….my answer is above.
      
      24 4
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      October 22, 2020 5:15pm
    - Spam
      
      Questioned directly by moderator Mike Hosking (who was exacting on both, in his rat-a-tat, pop-economist kind-of way) whether New Zealand could be in for national strikes, Ardern had her most emphatic moment: “No. We. Will. Not.”
      https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96388899/jacinda-ardern-shows-every-sign-of-being-the-real-deal-after-first-debate
      
      14 0
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      October 22, 2020 5:29pm
      - RW Capitalist
        
        and time will tell, but if you are a betting man…………
        
        7 2
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        October 22, 2020 5:59pm
- hullkiwi
  
  Fentex, the rolling disputes between the bus driver unions and the operating companies, or the nurses, junior doctors and teacher disputes are not a distorted graphic. They are very real, and in the case of the bus drivers, the issue is still very real for the industry.
  
  24 1
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  October 22, 2020 4:42pm
- giltee
  
  No wonder labour got back in if this Is the calibre of their voters. Surely you must be talking the p!ss
  
  24 3
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  October 22, 2020 4:46pm
  - Fentex
    
    Hmm? Who did you see say they voted for Labour?
    
    Such assumptions is why you’ll see me encourage accuracy in claims.
    
    3 10
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    October 22, 2020 6:43pm
- 453mm
  
  Ten people not working for one day is NOT 10 days work lost – it’s one days work.
  
  Clearly this guy didn’t go to a Charter school.
  
  35 3
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  October 22, 2020 4:56pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  It is 10 days lost in a business. I guess you are using Labour variable arithmetic with a roving decimal point
  
  18 1
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  October 22, 2020 5:29pm
  - RW Capitalist
    
    and you have given the perfect definition of a….
    GUESS
    
    8 0
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    October 22, 2020 6:00pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      perfect definition of why Labour won – stupid people
      
      2 1
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      October 23, 2020 8:02am
- fisho
  
  You’ve really pushed the ignorance boat out this time comrade.
  
  3 0
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  October 22, 2020 7:56pm
- Bobba Fret
  
  Do you seriously not think that 10 people in one day can do the work of one person in 10 days?
  Of course its 10 days of work lost…..unless those 10 people are Labour MP’s and in that case 9 of the 10 do nothing while one actually works.
  
  2 0
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  October 23, 2020 9:32am
Graeme Edgeler

Don’t worry, there won’t even be three strikes next year
54 2
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October 22, 2020 4:15pm
- Rumblestrip
  
  Comment of the day!
  
  24 0
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  October 22, 2020 4:16pm
- RW Capitalist
  
  no….but the police will get overtime.
  
  9 0
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  October 22, 2020 4:19pm
- RJ
  
  GP nurses go on strike soon. I expect a sole labour government we will see even more strikes.
  
  23 1
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  October 22, 2020 4:22pm
  - Ian Boag
    
    And a Nat/Act government would have been hardnosed and put up with strikes until the strikers saw the futility of their claims?
    
    Aside from which the junior docs/ lab techs and other hospital folk deal with individual DHBs, not the MoH.
    
    Go figure …
    
    1 16
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    October 22, 2020 6:06pm
    - Yabster
      
      who do you think funds the DHB’s -father christmas?
      
      3 0
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      October 23, 2020 8:30am
      - Ian Boag
        
        I was talking about who actually sits across the negotiating table. Government has always distanced itself from direct involvement in this stuff. Ever since the DHB model was introduced in 2000 by Labour and left in place by both parties for the 20 years since.
        
        A bit cynical, but it is what it is.
        
        0 3
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        October 23, 2020 9:40am
  - rockape
    
    DHB nurses are being canvassed for strike action over pay equity left over from the last 17% pay deal.
    
    1 0
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    October 23, 2020 10:06am
- hullkiwi
  
  Really, I’ve know some people who think differently.
  
  4 1
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  October 22, 2020 4:43pm
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  So what? People voted against it. They don’t want Three Strikes. Move on will ya?
  
  4 6
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  October 22, 2020 4:43pm
- Pharmachick
  
  Can you maybe try and stop that?
  
  You’re well respected in many places, and … well… it seems like 3S might be working, based on the fewer and fewer criminals at each level of “Strike”.
  
  Thx
  
  8 1
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  October 22, 2020 5:19pm
Thought Criminal

Two predictions.

Labour attempt to stop reporting on this. Socialism 101: control access to the truth.

The media will ignore this. As they did all of Labour’s other failures.
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October 22, 2020 4:19pm
RW Capitalist

Notice
Strikes in
2014 …1448 up from 2013 …483
2017….370 up from 2016….195
election years
The funny thing, is 2019 , AFTER the unions didn’t get what they expected, for helping unseat National.
142 670..wow, now imagine next year when there is no bribe money left……how many strikes will come?
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October 22, 2020 4:26pm
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  Bribe money will be printed by the Robber.
  
  10 1
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  October 22, 2020 4:44pm
  - RW Capitalist
    
    Of that I am sure.
    With his face on it?
    
    7 0
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    October 22, 2020 5:17pm
    - sooty
      
      Will it bounce?
      
      1 0
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      October 22, 2020 8:08pm
      - RW Capitalist
        
        Don’t see why not….he does.
        
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        October 23, 2020 1:19am
anonymouse

https://www.employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/unions-and-bargaining/work-stoppages/
Number of stoppages- 159
Number of employees involved – 53,771

its pretty easy to work out what they were….

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/29/new-zealand-schools-hit-by-mega-strike-as-50000-teachers-walk-out

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/109688072/thousands-of-resident-doctors-set-to-strike-in-midjanuary
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October 22, 2020 4:38pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

‘No strikes on my watch” or something like that
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October 22, 2020 5:32pm
- Paulus Gnome
  
  ‘Open and transparent’ coupled with ‘I see no reason to lie in politics’ pretty much sums up the hypocritical attitude of the left . . .
  
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  October 22, 2020 6:22pm
- Phronesis
  
  Questioned directly by moderator Mike Hosking (who was exacting on both, in his rat-a-tat, pop-economist kind-of way) whether New Zealand could be in for national strikes, Ardern had her most emphatic moment: “No. We. Will. Not.” https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96388899/jacinda-ardern-shows-every-sign-of-being-the-real-deal-after-first-debate
  
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  October 22, 2020 7:08pm
Ian Boag

What would a National govt have done with the junior doctors? teachers? nurses? Would these groups have been more receptive to Bill English telling them “no” …. ?

The junior docs have one of the more hardline unions in the country with Debra Powell (the latest Jim Knox) in charge. Noone ever grumbles about them though – just the teachers and nurses. DP also fronts for the radiowhatnot lab tech too …

Counterfactuals (what could have been) are always a bit hard. Noone can “prove” they are right. Perhaps Bill would have sent in the Army? ( like Sid Holland in 1951 … )

It is what it is ….
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October 22, 2020 5:52pm
- RW Capitalist
  
  What would a National govt have done with the junior doctors? teachers? nurses? Would these groups have been more receptive to Bill English telling them “no” …. ?
  Not hard to guess…they did it.
  Industrial relations were better and the numbers above show that.
  1. They never made promises they couldn’t keep.
  2. They kept their eye on the ball, patient outcomes.
  3. Managed expectations and incrementally improved conditions.
  Labour just promised massive wage/ salary increases without any money left to improve conditions.
  The man that only looks at the price, will always be disappointed with the quality.
  Labour only look at the money, never the work.
  
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  October 22, 2020 6:07pm
  - Ian Boag
    
    massive wage/ salary increases without any money left to improve conditions
    
    I missed the bit in the election campaign where the junior docs etc were promised massive salary increases.
    
    incrementally improved conditions
    
    Really? How?
    
    The RDA is one of the more militant unions in the country and it has widespread support among junior medics. Obviously the junior docs were not happy with the “improvement in conditions” they were offered in the negotiations.
    
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    December 23, 2019 10:22am
- cmm
  
  Plenty of people complain about junior docs wanting it easy and there is good reason to do so.
  
  The hard yards of being a junior doc is part of the rites of passage of becoming a doc. It’s a bit like boot camp for a soldier.
  
  Sure we COULD make it all easy, but would that really help?
  
  Sure we COULD pay them way more, but they’ve already had approx $400k of taxpayer money paid into their education to set them up for a highly paid career.
  
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  October 22, 2020 7:41pm
  - Lance
    
    Perhaps the soldiers could go on strike to have a ‘nicer’ boot camp, with no shouting, massages and everyone makes it no matter how hard they tried complete with a nice wee certificate at the end?
    
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    October 23, 2020 10:17am
greybeard

As I said this morning in GD:
And we are off ! It only took 4 days.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123171328/countdown-call-centre-staff-go-on-strike-demanding-more-pay
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October 22, 2020 6:51pm
cmm

I think milky and Fentex are partially right.

Whether or not THEY go to work is probably no odds to the economy.

But for most of us, every day we’re dodging work or taking a newly created public holiday off, is one less day of value generated.
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October 22, 2020 7:29pm
mikenmildagain

Hmmmmm
I wonder why the graph doesn’t show the 2012 figure?
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October 22, 2020 8:10pm
- JamesP
  
  The Employment Relations Amendment Bill 2013 and other employment legislation enacted by the National Government around that time.
  
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  October 22, 2020 11:44pm
Ruawai

So much for another Jacinda promise fail.
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October 23, 2020 7:53am
mikenmildagain

For anyone interested, the 2012 figure was 78,589. I looked it up for you, as I figured that DPF would have used earlier numbers as well if they could be presented to make Labour look bad and National good.
Interestingly, the MBIE stats also attribute an estimated loss of salaries and wages for the time lost. For 2012, that loss was $13.6 million, but for 2019 only $9.18 million.
Hmmmmmm….
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October 23, 2020 7:53am
- R
  
  No doubt a typo on DPF’s part along with the omission of 2020 where there has been just one stoppage and 16 working days lost.
  
  These sort of gotcha moments helped National at the last election. I hope we see many more.
  
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  October 23, 2020 1:57pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    It’s the kind of presentation one uses to reach the low-information voters.
    
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    October 23, 2020 3:39pm
surfing

If you think national would have given the nurses a pay rise then I’d have to disagree.

Nurses renumeration was going to blow up one day one way or another.
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October 23, 2020 8:01am
R

How many work stoppages have there been in 2020? Just one. That’s right, a big fat 1. With 16 working days lost. Yep, NZers will be scared shitless at this wanton shirking by NZ workers!

Meanwhile in 2012, almost 80,000 work days were lost. Who was in Government in 2012?
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October 23, 2020 1:52pm

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