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November 29, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 29 November 2024

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General Debate

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Scooter

So Australia has passed the world’s first social media ban for under 16’s. Let’s just see how that works out and as NZ loves to follow Oz (eg the Candace Owen ban), will we “Nek minnit” and do the same?
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November 29, 2024 8:12am
- Paulus
  
  Tell me first how do you monitor it
  – ask the user if they are a child ?
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:27am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Hilarious.
  
  15 year old downloads VPN. Next minute he is a 15 year old in Iceland. Problem solved.
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:43am
  - Conservatarian
    
    Correct. Some VPNs cost money (so that could be a tip-off to a parent whose 12 year old child asks the parent to authorise a recurring $5 monthly charge) but some decent ones are free.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:55am
    - Observant Octagenarian
      
      Is there a ‘decent one’ that is both free and allows you to pretend you are in the UK?
      
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      November 29, 2024 1:20pm
      - Conservatarian
        
        Are you hoping to be questioned by a West Yorkshire bobby about why your innocuous age-old true statement has been deemed a “non-crime hate incident”?
        
        I don’t use a VPN but I am thinking about doing so. I have heard Proton VPN is good, and free. For what it’s worth, Proton VPN seems to advertise on some of the various freedom-oriented anti censorship type podcasts I listen to.
        
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        November 29, 2024 2:38pm
  - Flossie
    
    Easier than that. I know several under 13 who quite simply lie about their age.
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:35pm
  - sirknz
    
    Age confirmation works so well with the porn sites.
    
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    November 29, 2024 1:31pm
- imalwaysright
  
  Scooter
  This is the introduction, by stealth, of a national identity card.
  All people over 16 will have to verify their age and identity to a government database in order to access social media.
  That’s a national ID .
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:13pm
  - Paulus
    
    Of course we all have a National Indentity via our NHI Medical records, and have done for many years.
    
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    November 29, 2024 1:34pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      Paulus
      Along with our IRD Number
      Driver’s Licence
      Passport number
      
      All easily linked.
      
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      November 29, 2024 10:11pm
  - carlsbad apple
    
    Like a driver’s licence?
    
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    November 29, 2024 2:05pm
  - MCōs
    
    There are numerous ID cards and numbers already
    Having said that Thais must have an official ID card that they need to produce for a variety of reasons plus foreigners are supposed to carry their passport at all times, presumably to prove they are not an overstayer.
    
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    November 29, 2024 3:30pm
- Local Miller
  
  Bans like this are there to protect the social media companies (or equivalent) not to stop the banned user from getting access.
  
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  November 29, 2024 2:23pm
kowtow

Across our msm I see what amounts to an ad campaign for a book on the treaty .

Did Bachelor ever get the same free publicity .

I reckon we’re seeing our taxes still being splashed about via NZ on Air.
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November 29, 2024 8:22am
- pdm
  
  Is it the same book being given to every High School student thanks to an `anonymous donor’?
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:57am
  - kowtow
    
    Yep that one.
    
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    November 29, 2024 1:51pm
  - MCōs
    
    Given to every high school, not student. Big difference
    What the school does with it is another matter
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/anonymous-donor-gifts-understanding-te-tiriti-to-all-new-zealand-high-schools/DBBUPPLVP5FSJJNMNXWSD6PFAI/
    
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    November 29, 2024 3:37pm
  - Surely Knott
    
    Shocking. An Anonymous Donor funds books to go into High Schools on a topic that is political bill in parliament at the moment.
    
    Can any anonymous lobbyist have their books put in all high schools. I’ve got some books to give to the high schools on the Danger of Mandates, Danger of Communism, and Why the Act Party is Right About Te Tiriti? Where do I drop them off.
    
    And further the Author of the Te Tiriti school books is Roimata Smail who has a website with a page with a downloadable template of a submission to the bill where she encourages people to submit.
    
    It’s absolutely appalling that our schools are being accessed by lobbying material in this way.
    
    https://waiakobooks.com/pages/template-submission-opposing-treaty-principles-bill
    
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    November 29, 2024 8:43pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    The author sells copies online for $25.
    
    A nice windfall for her if the anonymous donor paid for the thousands distributed to schools. Even at heavy heavy discount, more than enough for a few flash dinners and a nice over seas holiday
    
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    November 29, 2024 10:18pm
Ehlana

Seems like everyone has gone to the Black Friday sales already…
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November 29, 2024 8:29am
- Flossie
  
  I toyed with the idea of going but decided the hassles would probably outweigh the savings on the couple of items I am potentially interested in.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:18am
  - Don Beckett
    
    Easy. Ducked over to Bunnings at 9.45, got 3 capsicum plants & came out – traffic slightly more than normal but not much. Home again by 10.10. 🙂
    
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    November 29, 2024 10:46am
    - Flossie
      
      Unfortunately our nearest Bunnings is 2 1/2 hours drive away.
      
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      November 29, 2024 12:57pm
- pdm
  
  Either that or the `clothing optional’ event somewhere in the King Country area.
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:58am
SmokerGuy

I find these articles amusing:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/culture/360504118/sharon-stone-blames-ignorant-uneducated-americans-donald-trumps-win

So Sharon Stone ironically is accusing everyone who voted for Trump as ignorant yet she is so surprised he won, does that not make her ignorant? I’m no fan of Trump but to brand everyone who voted for him ignorant and uneducated is the reason he won in the first place. This women is obviously completely out of touch with reality. This elitist attitude by the left where they belittle and ignore people whom they see as below them is why this happened and why there is so much division. Yet they are too stupid to see this and continue to do it!!
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November 29, 2024 8:47am
- RoboRob
  
  It always surprises me when people think ultra wealthy Hollywood actors and musicians aren’t out of touch!
  
  When money is never issue, you live in multiple gated communities, you have body gaurds, you have staff who just do what they are told and agree with you on everything, all your friends are also in the same situation and your big issues are things like which event to appear at and how to avoid reporters, how does one not lose touch with the reality that the majority live in?
  
  I went to Pearl Jam in Auckland recently. Eddie Vedder (lead singer) decided he needed to talk about the election results in the US and how terrible it was. This is not the first time I have seen singers talk about politics in concerts in foreign countries. They have zero comprehension that a) most people could care less and b) its possible they are offending half the audience. They live in bubbles where all their friends think the same way and everyone else is too scared to say anything, so they just assume that everyone agrees and that Trump won because a whole heap of morons they will never meet voted for him.
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:15am
  - alwyn.a
    
    “When money is never issue, you live in multiple gated communities, you have body gaurds, you have staff who just do what they are told and agree with you on everything, all your friends are also in the same situation and your big issues are things like which event to appear at and how to avoid reporters, how does one not lose touch with the reality that the majority live in?”
    
    I now understand why Trump is the way he is. You have given a perfect description of the man himself.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:32am
    - Don Beckett
      
      You are still confused. Guess who all those who support Trump at his rallies & voted for him are?
      Yes, the average American working bloke.
      Mmm – seems like your assumption doesn’t apply to Trump.
      
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      November 29, 2024 1:08pm
    - RoboRob
      
      Absolutely, Trump meets the definition nicely as do most politicians (Bushes, Clintons, Bidens, Obamas etc).
      
      The interesting thing with Trump is, that while he doesn’t live in reality, his interactions with staff seem to keep him somewhat grounded. His (and later Kamalas) ‘no tax on tips’ policy came from an interaction with a waitress in a restaurant. He, like some others, seems to go out of his way to interact with the plebs 🙂
      
      Also much of his building work involved dealing with tradespeople who tend to be grounded, even once they become seo.
      
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      November 29, 2024 2:03pm
  - Conservatarian
    
    It gets even worse. I understand Chris Martin of Coldplay interfered in NZ politics during one of this gloomy band’s recent Auckland concerts. He no doubt read a newspaper in his hotel that morning, or watched the 6pm news, and then lectured the crowd on how they should support the heroic hikoi to avoid equal treatment for all races.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:59am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Mick Jagger praised Justin Trudeau at a recent Canadian concert. It didn’t go down well….
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:16pm
    - imalwaysright
      
      Here’s Trudea last week, dancing with the other 15 year old girls at a Taylor Swift concert while anti Israel protests turned violent in Montreal.
      
      Man childhttps://youtu.be/Vzm943lnCt0?si=2R-7Z2doBF7qsq7J
      
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      November 29, 2024 2:11pm
- PurplePen
  
  And even more amusing or perhaps tragic is the MSM think publishing the random mumblings of a celebrity is somehow factual or the truth or worthy of any consideration at all.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:43pm
  - RoboRob
    
    Or why politicians thnik the endorsement of random celebs should mean something.
    
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    November 29, 2024 2:06pm
Local Miller

The cures of moderation. It’s 8:45 and only 1 comment has made it through moderation.

Can’t we get rid of this now? From what I’ve seen it seems to be a total waste of time and resources, and largely ad hoc. I had a comment blocked out by the moderators (the first ever as I recall), and 3 comments later someone else said the same thing worded slightly differently, but their comment wasn’t moderated out.
If moderation isn’t consistent and timely it is useless. I understand the moderators are volunteers, but the process messes with the whole concept of an interactive comments section.
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November 29, 2024 8:50am
- MCōs
  
  A few years ago there were no moderators and some pretty awful comments started to come up.
  Hence the need for the owners to review what went out on their blog
  
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  November 29, 2024 8:58am
  - Local Miller
    
    The report process seemed to work pretty well back then. The moderation was introduced because of anticipated law changes that could get the blog owner sued because of other peoples comments. I’ve not followed the law, but as far as I know no blog owner in NZ has been prosecuted under this law. I don’t think the law even made it onto the books, but I may be wrong. The introduction of moderators seems to have been a knee jerk reaction that has run it’s course and should be killed.
    
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    November 29, 2024 9:03am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I thought the moderation started immediately following the Christchurch mosque attacks?
      
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      November 29, 2024 9:11am
      - Local Miller
        
        Yes, because of proposed law changes
        
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        November 29, 2024 9:18am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        I don’t see that it is productive to complain about any of the blog policies. It is not a collectively owned or operated forum. It is a private blog, owned and operated by DPF. He will do whatever he wants.
        
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        November 29, 2024 9:31am
      - nova
        
        I think it is reasonable to make suggestions, and I think the comments would work better if most posts showed up immediately without having to go through moderation. You could solve most of the problem by moderating anyone with less than 10 successful posts, or people who had been flagged by moderators in the past. The existing reporting process could be used for legitimate posters who might sometimes cross the line.
        
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        November 29, 2024 10:00am
      - peterwn
        
        Another reason for moderation is the threat of defamation or problems if a contributor breaches court suppression orders. Defending a meritless defamation can still cost heaps. Having and carrying out robust moderation policies is a good defence against issues on the part of a site owner, especially where the offending party can be identified.
        
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        November 29, 2024 10:27am
    - PurplePen
      
      Up until the recent change in police commissioner the worst that could happen would have been a chat, cup of tea and a hug anyway. The courts haven’t had any changes and their box of wet bus tickets is chocka still.
      
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      November 29, 2024 12:45pm
  - T for Tim
    
    Maybe they could block the offensive language and excessive posting. Also putting up unneeded links to things like Babylon.bee. or maybe posters who do all these things. Nothing worse than reading a blog that is logged by a few
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:07pm
- Swifty
  
  I’ve noticed that KB activity generally is down of late – reduced comments on posts and reduced up/downticks.
  
  DPF – is viewership down of late and compared to the glory days?
  
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  November 29, 2024 8:59am
  - peterwn
    
    It is getting near Christmas.
    
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    November 29, 2024 2:17pm
- Scooter
  
  Or if you are in another time zone so post late NZ time, past the mods bed times, comments don’t get approved or are “disappeared”.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:07am
- Benedict Yu
  
  The moderation is light handed..
  
  A couple of times I have browsed the archives of Kiwiblog. Some of the comments and trolling were awful.
  
  Way before my time… There was a commenter “ztev” who seemed to devote hours each day to ruin the blog. This seemed to have gone on for a couple of years. Why wasn’t he thrown out?
  
  Anyway, it is not my blog or your blog. 😀 Another guy makes the rules.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:08am
  - Local Miller
    
    While it may be light handed, it’s still inconsistent which means you never know if some innocuous remark isn’t going to be moderated out. This also messes with one’s ability to understand some some threads. For example where a person’s nick name is replaced with [use correct names – mod], but the context of the thread doesn’t give enough detail to work out who was being referenced.
    I agree, there were a few really awful trolls, but they were normally reported and eventually put in time out. I tend to agree there was little drive to permanently timeout the worst of these, but they were dealt to in one way or another.
    
    This history however doesn’t change the fact that the moderation doesn’t add any value to the blog, it detracts and interferes in the flow of the debate.
    I come back to my point, if there needs to be moderation than it should be consistent and timely, but rather no moderation. At least not in “real time” as it’s being done here.
    
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    November 29, 2024 9:32am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      As I said, no point complaining. Not your blog 🙂
      
      The blog gets about 400 to 600 comments daily. In the last eight weeks, 273 comments have been deleted so less than one percent or about four comments deleted daily. Also the vast majority of the comments being deleted are not marginal calls. They way overstep.
      
      I don’t see the problem.
      
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      November 29, 2024 10:18am
      - imalwaysright
        
        “Also the vast majority of the comments being deleted are not marginal calls..”
        
        How do you know?
        
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        November 29, 2024 1:03pm
      - Taieri
        
        As I said, no point complaining. Not your blog
        ———-
        
        True.
        But a blog without readers is not much of a blog…
        
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        November 29, 2024 2:01pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “How do you know?”
        
        It is a secret. 🙂
        
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        November 29, 2024 11:38pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        “It is a secret”
        What an odd reply.
        
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        November 30, 2024 7:20am
    - Ra Henare
      
      Local,
      Having been on the wrong end of a mods delete button.
      I agree with your comments about inconsistency.
      
      But as BY says (not that I agree with him and his delete stats) we are guests of our host.
      
      His house, his rules.
      
      Unfortunately its the housekeepers that interpret the rules.
      
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      November 29, 2024 11:28pm
  - kowtow
    
    “ztev” always struck me as a homophone for ‘trev’ .
    
    Maybe he’s in exile , in a cold , wet, dreary,depressing ,windswept island off the coast of continental Europe………..
    
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    November 29, 2024 10:05am
    - Keith White
      
      Elba? 🙂
      
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      November 29, 2024 12:09pm
  - pdm
    
    ztev – was that not rumoured to be `The Despicable’ Trevor Mallard?
    
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    November 29, 2024 10:20am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      How could Trevor Mallard have had time to post thousands, literally, of comments here?
      
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      November 29, 2024 10:27am
      - Suze Wainwright
        
        Work priorities?
        
        Personal satisfaction…?
        
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        November 29, 2024 10:38am
      - Swifty
        
        DPF busted that rumour, he came on here and said it wasn’t him.
        
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        November 29, 2024 10:41am
      - imalwaysright
        
        ” How could Trevor Mallard have had time to post thousands, literally, of comments…”.
        
        Government employee. What else would he do all day.
        
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        November 29, 2024 10:50am
      - RoboRob
        
        Do you really think labour MPs work hard?
        
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        November 29, 2024 11:17am
      - Ra Henare
        
        In the same way that Trump and Musk pump out plenty of tweets EVERY day.
        
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        November 29, 2024 11:30pm
- 70andstilllearning
  
  A whole thread on the 7 AM post was ‘disappeared’ quite early – suspect a ‘captains call’ which was probably fair enough (off topic). Your point about consistency is potentially valid as it’s been noticeable that some commenters have been getting grief about snark towards others whilst other prolific commenters seem to have free rein.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:12am
- Vinicius
  
  I don’t post much here because of the moderation policies. I see why on a political blog moderation is sometimes necessary.
  
  I do think the said rules could be given some tweaking. I don’t see why some posters comments go straight through and are published online immediately while some of us have to wait. Should be one rule for all.
  
  And yes, I do remember a time at this blog when there was limited moderation that some posters would spam some odd and over the top comments.
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:10am
- Raphael
  
  If you send through your actual details (name and email address) to DPF you can be put on the bypass automoderation list
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:12am
  - Local Miller
    
    My name and e-mail address are in my profile.
    
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    November 29, 2024 10:38am
    - Don Beckett
      
      As I understand it, if you don’t wnat moderation you need tp comment under your proper name, not a pseudonym. However, there are many here who need to use a pseudonym because of their public profile.
      You should request DPF to allow your pseudonym be used without moderation – it’s up to him.
      
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      November 29, 2024 10:53am
      - pdm
        
        No you can email DPF and ask.
        
        If you history is clean then no problem.
        
        That is what I did and I know Biscuit did the same.
        
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        November 29, 2024 11:01am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “As I understand it, if you don’t wnat moderation you need tp comment under your proper name, not a pseudonym.”
        
        Not really. It is entirely up to to the moderators and DPF. If you have commented literally thousands of times without issue, you can make a request to be unmoderated and still use a pseudonym.
        
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        November 29, 2024 11:48am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Sure, we all have to do that.. but if you read the comments policy:
      
      Moderators are volunteers and sometimes there is a delay in a comment being approved. If this frustrates you, then considering posting under your real name, and you can be given auto approve status with no delays.
      
      If there is some reason that you must use a pseudonym, then consider emailing DPF directly and request auto approve status.
      
      (Don Beckett)….snap
      
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      November 29, 2024 10:55am
    - imalwaysright
      
      You are doing ok Local, I posted on the 7am subject at 7.52 and its still being moderated.
      
      Posted here over an hour ago….
      
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      November 29, 2024 10:57am
- Paulus
  
  For all the many years I have enjoyed being here I am moderated on everything.
  Nor sure why but !
  I am quite happy with that despite the sometimes delay in publishing.
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:31am
Tomtoddy

I flew home from Los Angeles the other morning. I was reminded of something I read a few months ago that gave some perspective to how utterly trivial and insignificant New Zealand’s GHG emissions problems are.

The story was that if all the atmosphere around the earth was a distance from Los Angeles to Auckland – 10,450 kms – then the comparative distance that would equate to our so-called biggest ‘pollution’ problem – cow and sheep burps and farts – would get you just 27 millimetres or a measly one inch. In other words, about the distance that happens in that small jolt you feel as the pushback tug engages in preparation for pushing the plane out onto the taxiway. When you think of it like that you have to wonder whether the whole taxing of farmers is the biggest rort ever perpetrated in this country.

Today farmers will be told they have to stick boluses down their animals throats, vaccinate them and spend money they don’t have rounding them up regularly to stop something so ridiculously infinitesimal it barely registers. Seemingly intelligent people are going demand expensive and dangerous remedies for an absurdity which beyond normal comprehension.

Is the maths right? Stuck up at 35,000 feet for 12 hours or so I had time to check it out. All methane is 0.00019% of the atmosphere. All ruminants around the planet contribute 14% of methane emissions. NZ has 1% of the world’s ruminants. 10,450,000 metres X 0.00019% X 14% X 1% is 27.79 millimetres. Yep, a nothing. For that paltry amount very senior people like Dr Rod Carr, head of the Climate Change Commission, says we need to slaughter animals, reduce our herds and flocks. Really??

Don’t try the drop of arsenic in the swimming pool being dangerous nonsense. Methane isn’t poison. You just breathed some in.

Mt Luxon, Mr Peters, Mr Seymour please show some commonsense, some well-grounded leadership. Kill this crazy methane emissions stuff.
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November 29, 2024 8:52am
- Grunter
  
  Tomtoddy – you are correct, the numbers show that this is not a problem. It doesn’t even come remotely close to being a problem, let alone a “global emergency”. And yet the Global Boiling zealots continue on.
  
  To me, this is such an obvious scam by ‘those in charge’.
  
  Anyone that “believes in Global Boiling” is either completely brainwashed, or is part of the scam (or maybe both).
  
  So where does that place Luxon? IMO, I suspect he is part of the scam. He is a globalist.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:13am
- AitchW
  
  An earlier post commented on how the Labour Party is voting on a proposal to castrate politically its own leader.
  Given that it did the same thing to our economy the last time it was in power for 2 reasons, 1 to save us from Covid and, 2, to save the planet from our paltry emissions it seems an eminently sensible idea.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:17am
- Burtland
  
  Denmark has recently put cow burps into their emissions targets
  – anyone exporting to the EU will probably have to follow Denmarks lead
  
  “From 2030, farmers will have to pay a levy of $US43 per tonne of methane (as per carbon dioxide equivalent) on emissions from livestock including cows and pigs, which will rise to $US107 in 2035.
  
  https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20nq8qgep3o
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:19am
  - judith8409121
    
    eu are bringing in regulations that any company selling in the eu will have to have full co2 disclosure of all its supply chain no matter where in the world they are located. This cult – the EU – are at the extreme end of isolationist – NZ government should stop pandering to the EU cult and turn away from all of these crazy behaviours
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:51pm
- David Garrett
  
  Tom: when I was a candidate for ACT back in 2008 I got a half day briefing on climate change from an environmental scientist. She said if the worlds greenhouse gas emissions for one year was a two litre jug of Milk New Zealands share of that jug was half of one drop.
  
  I used that analogy at numerous candidate panels- with Green candidates present- and was never once challenged on it.
  
  Seems consistent with ur analogy.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:38am
  - Conservatarian
    
    Yes, about one-sixth of one percent i.e. 0.16-17% or 3.33ml in a two litre milk bottle. Literally a [half] drop.
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:10pm
- James Stephenson
  
  I don’t even think that’s the biggest problem. The fundamental unfairness, in the race to “net zero”, is that farmers are pinged for gross emissions. They should be able to put the fact that the carbon burped out into the atmosphere by their livestock had until very recently been in the atmosphere before the grass in their paddock captured it, into the credit column.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:45am
- septic skeptic
  
  Our proportion is small, but you can split all of the worlds population up into small units that by themselves have little effect. Just chop the big countries up into states, provinces or counties and none of them individually are a major part either.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:59am
  - Cassandra
    
    But it’s not chopped that way, it’s sovereign states which make their individual choices.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:14am
- judith8409121
  
  the problem about discussing this logically is that there is no logic in it. It’s a captured group of political and media feeding off themselves in some sort of gamed circle jerk. They are all busy patting themselves saying how great their celebrity cause is while ignoring that there is no cause, there is not one other person outside their cultism wanting, agreeing, or asking for any of this
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:42pm
- PurplePen
  
  Agree. Another analogy, but for carbon. A single full-stop on your high res phone screen is the proportion of carbon in the atmosphere to all the other gases. Of course, NZs contribution will be some tiny tiny tiny part of that full-stop. And then some of that contribution is anthropological and a sizeable portion is natural.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:52pm
Swifty

Can anyone else see the massive, gaping flaw in this ‘international financial expert’s’ reasoning?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360502865/act-says-it-wants-equal-rights-all-so-what-about-fair-treaty-settlements
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November 29, 2024 8:56am
- PurplePen
  
  Not sure. But would like to know. I’d note that in the settlement agreements if they were signed by both parties you can hardly turn around and the next day it’s not settled. You should have negotiated better when at the table.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:58pm
Benedict Yu

This is an interesting example of poor journalism.

It is about a New Zealand citizen in an Indonesian prison for drug trafficking.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360501079/pressure-government-get-nz-prisoner-antony-de-malmanche-home-bali

The article demands that Chris Luxon do something. It contrasts the situation with a recent announcement by the Australian government that it had secured the release of some Australians imprisoned in Indonesia.

So the message is Albo is a good guy and Chris Luxon is uncaring.

Here is what the article did not cover.

The Australians released from Indonesia will be transferred to Australian prisons. For how long is yet to be determined.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/bali-nine-s-fate-will-be-in-australia-s-hands-if-they-return-home-indonesia-20241128-p5kucz.html

This is possible because Australia has prisoner exchange agreements with many countries, including Indonesia. In contrast New Zealand has no prisoner exchange agreement with any country. I do not know why this is so. The journalist could have written an informative article that explored the reasons.
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November 29, 2024 8:57am
- Flossie
  
  In this day and age people must be aware of the severe penalties that other countries enforce when their laws are broken. Why should the NZ taxpayers have to go to the aid of such offenders.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:15am
  - Tempist
    
    Interesting example of two prominently advertised quote-unquote documentaries on 501s and ram-raid mums that run the whole NZ MSM narrative that the criminals are the victims.
    
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    November 29, 2024 9:25am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Yes. Occasionally, folk get thrown in prison for breaking so called “stupid” laws. Last week in Dubai an 18 year old British man was arrested in Dubai for having sex with a 17 year old girl. Of course that is not a crime in the UK, but bad luck. Should have checked the local law.
    
    The other risk is being imprisoned on corrupt charges eg “spying”. OK so don’t travel to Syria, Russia or Belarus.
    
    I suspect that there is only one reason that New Zealand does not have prisoner exchange agreements. It is because such an agreement with Australia would cost a fortune. The numbers of Australians in New Zealand prisons will be a small fraction of the numbers of New Zealand citizens in Australian prisons.
    
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    November 29, 2024 9:26am
    - Dudley Quaffquaff
      
      The article does not demand that Luxon do something. It reports that some people are demanding that Luxon do something, which no doubt they are, and it reports the Government’s response.
      
      I’m not usually one to defend Stuff journalism. But isn’t reporting people’s words and actions, without inserting the journalist’s own thoughts, exactly what we’ve been demanding of them?
      
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      November 29, 2024 9:32am
    - David Garrett
      
      Bene: The different ages of consent around the world must be a considerable worry for young travellers.
      
      In Prince Andrews case he fucked a 17 year old, which in some states of the US would quite legal if more than a little sleazy given the age difference. In other states the sex would have been quite legal.
      
      When I was in Louisiana 45 years ago the age of consent was 14. In many southern states it was 15 or 16.
      
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      November 29, 2024 10:05am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        I disagree. Wikipedia has a handy table with all the age of consent laws globally.
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent?wprov=sfla1
        
        Also with Prince Andrew, he allegedly had sex with the 17 year old in New York state. That in itself was not a crime. The fact that she was being sex trafficked, more of an issue.
        
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        November 29, 2024 10:22am
      - David Garrett
        
        Bene: You have unwittingly just proved my point. Click on the USA button and you get ages of consent varying between states “with some laws in some states contradicting each other”.
        
        And I think you’ll find the age of consent in New York state – back then at least – was 18, so Ms Roberts was underage. She was 17 at the time.
        
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        November 29, 2024 10:27am
  - cmm
    
    100% agreed.
    If you want NZ prison conditions then commit your crimes here and not in Indonesia.
    
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    November 29, 2024 10:56am
    - sirknz
      
      Home D for all the special people.
      
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      November 29, 2024 2:24pm
- MCōs
  
  “The article demands that Chris Luxon do something.”
  No it didn’t
  As for the Australians returning to a prison in Oz. It’s pretty obvious where they would rather serve their time and it would be the same for that Kiwi bloke
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:22am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    OK ill tighten my language.
    
    The article reported that “supporters of a Kiwi man trapped in a “hellish” Bali prison say the New Zealand government is leaving him to die…”
    
    You say…
    
    “It’s pretty obvious where they would rather serve their time and it would be the same for that Kiwi bloke..”
    
    Yes well that is obvious.
    
    As for the “Kiwi bloke”, he cannot do so because New Zealand does not have a prisoner exchange agreement with Indonesia.
    
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    November 29, 2024 9:38am
  - nova
    
    I just re-read the stuff article, and it seemed to have been toned down from the version that I read earlier this morning. I feel that the earlier version said something along the lines of “relative x was disappointed that the only thing stopping the release back to NZ was Christopher Luxon refusing to to negotiate a deal”. I could be wrong, and the earlier article could have been a different news site. The wording of the article put the blame on NZ, when clearly there is a very high bar from the indonesian side, as it hasn’t been easy for the Australians to get the Bali 9 prisoners home.
    
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    November 29, 2024 10:11am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      It is simple. There is no law that allows New Zealand to have prisoners released from an Indonesian prison to a New Zealand prison.
      
      Australia has such a law.
      
      That should be the central theme of the story.
      
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      November 29, 2024 12:43pm
- nz_aj
  
  He has been in prison a while, neither Ardern or Hipkins saw the need to do anything. Stuff completely omits details of why he is in prison. Unknowingly smuggling 1.7kg of meth is not plausible. He’s lucky to have avoided the death penalty.
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/antony-de-malmanche-found-guilty-of-smuggling-drugs-into-bali/LP7CMA2FCWRAQTMYJCXYTQNUPQ/
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:41am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    There may be a pretty obvious reason why NZ didn’t rush to get this chap back to NZ.
    
    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/bali-authorities-find-drugs-raid-kiwis-cell
    
    Either he’s the unluckiest chap in Indonesia, constantly having drugs hidden on him or in his cell, or he’s an addict.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:30am
Burtland

seems theres plenty going on at TVNZ thats only reported behind paywalls …

“Te Karere executive producer Raparea Tawhai has resigned after being on personal leave for several weeks” … “his leave has coincided with inquiries TVNZ had been making into Te Karere operational matters”

there appears to be plenty of obfuscation around the issue

more Leftard failures hidden behind paywalls, anti-government is front page.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/media-insider/media-insider-the-full-cutbacks-at-tvnz-confidential-document-reveals-cut-news-roles-staff-angst/UUCFHALEONERZDYLPCUQHBPXGI/
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November 29, 2024 9:08am
- zulumonster
  
  I do agree with the following quote in the article, although I believe my interpretation of it will be different from the original source …
  “The newsroom is freaking out about the state of journalism. We’ve just never seen things so bad,” said one source.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:21pm
In Vino Veritas

I was in Barnes and Noble earlier and asked the clerk if they had Donald Trump’s new book on how to deport illegal immigrants.
She immediately said “Get the f**k out of here and don’t come back”.
I said, “Yes, that’s the one, do you have it in paperback?”
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November 29, 2024 9:10am
- Conservatarian
  
  Great joke
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:12pm
Sparrow

Can somebody explain in simple language why there has been this huge increase in consultants especially in the public sector. I have been retired for many years but did have some dealings with consultants. The ones I met were wet behind the ears and totally impractical and lacked commonsense. Sure they had business degrees hanging out of their pockets and with all the latest jargon, but a complete waste of time. They spread like a cancer and cost a fortune. Curious
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November 29, 2024 9:22am
- Phronesis
  
  When people are employed and promoted into management for reasons other than competence then someone has to be found who is actually capable of doing the work. The DEI requirements for contractors are lower than for staff.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:23pm
- sirknz
  
  The public sector uses consultants and contractors for one reason, and one reason only, to cover their own arses.
  
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  November 29, 2024 2:27pm
Grunter

I’ve made my Submission supporting the Treaty Bill. Too long to post here in it’s entirity, but one extract from my conclusion:

“I want to live in a country where one law applies to all New Zealand citizens, with no exceptions. We respect the past, but we don’t let it dictate the future needlessly. We celebrate our shared heritage — warts and all — and focus on building a country where everyone has a fair go regardless of their ancestry. That means ditching the guilt trips, the victimhood, and especially the uncertainty and lack of leadership.”
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November 29, 2024 9:27am
- pdm
  
  Well put Grunter.
  
  I will do mine next week – still pondering on some wording so your above helps.
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:12am
I remember when

Central Leader – Letters to Editor.
Letter discussing need to take two years and 1,700,000 dollars to decide whether Auckland bins are collected weekly or fortnightly.
“Manakau councillor, the extremely accomplished Lotu Fuli, says it is a very complex issue…trying to change cultural norms…change behaviour.
She goes on to explain: “We’re trying to ask our community for quite a big transformational cultural shift.”
To which the writer states:
“Sorry, but no – It’s a simple decision based on economics and practicalities.
There is nothing “cultural or complex” about putting a rubbish bin out for collection….”

The obvious answer to many of the ‘cultural’ arguments used to prevent action when all else fails.
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November 29, 2024 9:28am
- sirknz
  
  Got a nephew who works for Waste Management, their crews are telling management that moving to fortnightly collections is a dumb idea based on what they are seeing on the ground.
  
  He also pointed out that they don’t generally check the bins so as long as you don’t put lithium batteries in there, they don’t get paid enough to care, so if lawn clippings are in your recycling bin then c’est la vie.
  
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  November 29, 2024 2:37pm
NothingLeft

An exhausted Ukrainian soldier:

“Sometimes I find myself praying that the next shell comes for me and delivers me from this hell on earth. Sometimes, Russians on comms don’t get it why we laugh as we repel their meat grinder assaults. And we laugh and smile because we’re only waiting on them to bring us the sweet death and eternal calmness in silence. When you’re fresh, it’s all adrenaline. But when you’re exhausted, and when you have lost so many friends, you think of death as salvation. Yet you keep doing what we do. We fight and die for the unthankful, and the 15 days I finally have as my leave is just a joke on us.”
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November 29, 2024 9:29am
- Taieri
  
  the 15 days I finally have as my leave is just a joke on us
  ————–
  
  The vast majority of them don’t get any leave at all.
  
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  November 29, 2024 2:08pm
Cassandra

The Chairman of the Tuwharetoa trust Board demands that the government institute policies whch focus solely on Maori well-being. His aim is equal outcomes. In my lifetime – since WW2 – Maoris have had precisely the same opportunities as every other New Zealander. The Maoris I went to school with and later worked for and with had mixed results, as did the rest of us. Some worked hard – such as Brian Poananga and Wira Gardiner – and did well. Others not so well. We all had the same opportunities. It’s called life. Demanding special treatment is racism.
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November 29, 2024 9:34am
- imalwaysright
  
  Its depressingly surprising how many public funded maori-only organisations have surfaced this year.
  
  They appear to be endless.
  
  It seems that anyone who can come up with a maori grievance gets given their own fully funded fiefdom.
  
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  November 29, 2024 9:43am
- peterwn
  
  Surely the Trust’s income can be used to benefit ordinary Maori, or is it reserved for the benefit of the elite and other favoured ones?
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:14am
  - Cassandra
    
    You’ve answered your own question, peter. It’s a rort. Doug Graham has honourable intentions but he was, sadly, naive. All we’ve done is fund a tribal elite. And John Tamihere and his extended family.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:19am
- Keith White
  
  Being back home for a few days between assignments, it’s really quite disconcerting to browse any form of NZ media, whether blogs, online newspapers or briefly be assaulted by Teh TV News before quickly changing to MTV 80s or Kindig Customs… and notice the quite astonishingly high volume of rayciss effluent from MONGOS (Maori-Organised Non-Governmental Organisations).
  
  It is truly as if there is absolutely nothing that can happen in New Zealand without it either happening positively only because Maori are involved, or it’s happening because White Man Bad and it’s either killing, disadvantaging, robbing, disrespecting or insulting Maori – usually at least three or four of the above.
  
  If a police car is parked near where based on past/recent history have a few lawbreakers including Maori turn up, it’s an insult to all Maori everywhere.
  
  If police carry any arms, that’s gonna be directly responsible for more of Whitey’s Ongoing Genocide of Poor Brown Boys who are just trying to turn their lives around — which is why they go ram-raiding because there is no other course of action possibly open to them — and because of course we all know that ethnic gangs never go assaulting, raping, robbing and murdering.
  
  I suspect that if one marinades in this media environment year round, one gets used to it. I suspect I will get used to it too as background noise when I’ll have to quit going overseas for work and stay home.
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:16am
  - kowtow
    
    The Platform an excellent antidote to all that MONGO stuff .
    
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    November 29, 2024 2:05pm
- pdm
  
  I will chuck in the late Piri Sciascia ( a childhood friend), Sir Howard Morrison and David Seymour to that hard working lot.
  
  Would have included Winston Peters but he needed an an extra couple of categories – persistence and downright cunning to make the grade.
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:26am
  - Cassandra
    
    Totally agree, and lots more. Great guys who have taken their opportunities and done well. My brother left school at 15, worked as a sales rep all his life, three qualified children. Always turned up for work, ready and sober. Can hardly read and write but he can sell and worked hard at it. QED.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:23am
  - MCōs
    
    He’s a song ‘My Old Man’s an All Black’ by the Howard Morrison Quartet. Recorded in 1960 in Pukekohe at a time when the town was racially segregated and there’s no guessing who got the raw deal out of that.
    Māori were excluded from the ABs in 1960, which is what the song was about
    https://youtu.be/hT2wBq40RKI?si=NsQ9pmlhjv2YInut
    
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    November 29, 2024 4:14pm
    - peterwn
      
      At that time someone noticed that the rules of the Papakura Workingmens (ie cosmopolitan) Club contained a No Maoris clause. To the Club’s credit it was quickly removed.
      
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      November 29, 2024 5:47pm
- Phronesis
  
  In a free country, people are unequal.
  
  In an equal country, people are not free.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:27pm
  - PurplePen
    
    Except for the elite such as you might find in communism or a dictatorship.
    
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    November 29, 2024 1:05pm
  - kowtow
    
    Ah the dynamic tension between three values of the 18th C , expressed in the French revolution . Liberty , equality , brotherhood.
    
    A question of finding the balance between the three .
    
    N’est pa ?
    
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    November 29, 2024 2:08pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHVZvCDNm4I
Walmart Kicks DEI and Woke to the kerb.
Politics is downstream of culture. Bud Light won’t be using Dylan Mulvaney again.
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November 29, 2024 9:38am
- carlsbad apple
  
  God forbid should Walmart “invest resources and develop strategies to increase fairness, equity, and justice in aspects of everyday life.”
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:16am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6theoanjgI
Dismantling The Administrative State.
Thanks to recent SCOTUS rulings, it will be easier for President Trump’s DOGE team to drain the swamp. [It looks like the chainsaw and flamethrower are going to be effective after all.]
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November 29, 2024 9:39am
Handyman

Something has always seemed off regarding the methane argument being 8-40 times (depending on which settled science you believe) worse than CO2.

Methane levels are not increasing; they are steady. Methane has a shortish life of ten years before being converted into CO2. So all methane produced by New Zealand animals before 2014 is now CO2.
Therefore methane should be treated like CO2, that wonderful gas essential to make plants grow to feed vegans and other animals.
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November 29, 2024 9:44am
- cmm
  
  The methane multiplier is the only thing that makes the CO2 madness “work”.
  
  If you look at just the carbon, then all the carbon emitted by cows was first harvested from the air by photosynthesis.
  Some of the carbon is taken off the farms in the form of fat, protein and carbohydrates. Stuff we call food.
  Some of it is trapped in soil etc when roots and other material gets trapped in the soil.
  Some of it is returned to the atmosphere by cows breathing, stubble rotting, etc. So-called agricultural emissions.
  
  Clearly the carbon being released back into the atmosphere is way less than what gets taken out by photosynthesis. Therefore agriculture is carbon-harvesting.
  
  The only way to turn this back into farmers being carbon-sinners is to play the methane-multiplier game.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:28pm
Chuck Bird

This happens in NZ thanks to Ardern.

JUDY MARTIN HENDRIE: Born Alive, Left to Die: A Midwife’s Shocking Testimony

https://realitycheck.radio/replay/judy-martin-hendrie-born-alive-left-to-die-a-midwifes-shocking-testimony/
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November 29, 2024 9:44am
- wsk12345
  
  Yeah I listened to that. Poor woman, someone aborted a child at 24 weeks and it was born alive and they basically waited for her to die which took 2 hours. She should have been taken to the NICU and adopted out. What a disgrace. Such callousness.
  
  The midwife was even more upset as the night before, one of her clients had miscarried at 24 weeks and was utterly devastated.
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:08am
- Keith White
  
  More children are killed by abortion than by all infectious diseases, worldwide.
  
  “In January 2024, Worldometer, a live statistics website, reported that 44 million elective abortions were performed in the year 2022, thereby making abortion the leading cause of human death.
  
  According to Worldometer, the second leading cause of death in 2022 was communicable diseases, causing almost 13 million victims.
  
  Deaths attributed to infectious diseases and cancer accounted for more than 8 million deaths, while smoking caused approximately 5 million deaths.
  
  Alcohol contributed to 2.5 million deaths, and AIDS resulted in around 2 million deaths.
  
  All these combined still fall short of the number of lives lost due to abortion in 2022.
  
  Mengele and Co were amateurs compared to ‘Planned Parenthood.’
  
  (Yes, I went Godwin. So what, the cap fits).
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:19am
  - imalwaysright
    
    They call it Reproductive Rights.
    They are too cowardly to call it Rights to Kill a Baby.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:57am
    - Conservatarian
      
      “Pro-choice”, “reproductive rights”, “women’s healthcare” et al are simply branding to hide the obvious implications of abortion from those who could be convinced of its worth.
      
      Just like Kentucky Fried Chicken rebranded as KFC when “fried” became an unfavoured cooking method. It doesn’t take much to see through branding.
      
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      November 29, 2024 2:51pm
- Scott
  
  Chuck, these kind of things are very disturbing. We have the most liberal abortion laws in the world. If one abortion doctor consults with another abortion doctor and they agree an abortion is appropriate, then an abortion can happen at any time.
  
  I would think most NZers would want some limit on abortion? An abortion in the 8th month is surely a different thing to abortion in the 8th week? 🤔
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:28am
  - imalwaysright
    
    I recall that a doctor has to consult another doctor but doesn’t have to take their opinion.
    Technically still a consultation, but with contradictory opinions.
    I may be wrong.
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:01pm
    - Keith White
      
      You are correct imar.
      
      “Statutory clinical requirements for an abortion post 20 weeks:
      A qualified health practitioner may provide abortion services to an individual who is more than 20 weeks pregnant if they reasonably believe that the abortion is clinically appropriate in the circumstances. In considering whether the abortion is clinically appropriate in the circumstances, the qualified health practitioner must:
      
      consult at least one other qualified health practitioner…”
      
      Consultation yes, agreement no.
      
      Oh, and, the Medical Council and the law requires that
      
      “If a health practitioner has a conscientious objection they can decline to provide or assist with providing contraception, sterilisation or abortion services, or to provide information or other advisory services relating to abortion. However, they must:
      – tell the person of their objection
      – tell the person how to access the contact details of the closest provider of the service requested.
      
      So, both the law and the profession say you do not have pimp baby-killing services but you must provide contact details of the closest baby-killing pimp on demand.
      
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      November 29, 2024 2:51pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Thankyou, perception and reality eh!
        
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        November 29, 2024 5:40pm
  - Keith White
    
    Between so-called Assisted Premature-Dying, and Killing-up-until-Birthdate, the Mengeloids behind these practices are busy eliminating many of the most expensive consumers of health care* in what would be the first and last years of their now-cancelled lives… but they claim they are doing it for virtuous reasons. Bollox.
    
    Before some of y’all pile on claiming there are some really awful, horrible, terrible ways people die ‘unassisted’; yes this is sadly true. But that same illogic is used to justify abortion up till birth, in case a woman impregnated against her will by a rapist is forced to carry that rapist’s child to term.
    
    In both cases, the analogy fails; because
    – such cases account for no more than .003% at the very most, of all applications for medically-assisted dying and abortion
    and
    – we could strictly legislate for those few exceptional cases, but instead we’ve gone Full Arnaud Amalric: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
    
    * After the first most expensive year of life, health care costs are lowest for children, rise slowly throughout adult life, and increase exponentially after age 50.
    
    Annual costs for the sixth decade of life vary by country to rise to between thirteen and twenty-four times those of people in their teens.
    
    The over 85s consumes three times as much health care per person as those 65–74, and twice as much as those 75–84.
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:20pm
  - cmm
    
    There is certainly a sliding scale. Some milestones are:
    
    * After 5 weeks, a baby (or fetus if you find the term baby confrontational) has a heart, though that isn’t yet a fully formed. Actual heartbeats will take a bit longer.
    * At around 24 weeks (~6 months) a premature baby would have a 50/50 chance of survival.
    * At around 28 weeks (~7 months), a premature baby has a 90%+ chance of survival and 90% chance of no medical complications.
    
    I would argue that anything past 20 weeks or so is no longer abortion as the baby is potentially viable, but is deliberately killing a baby By 24 weeks it is no longer up for debate. Sure it might need to spend a while in an incubator, but it is clearly not just a blob of cells.
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:44pm
    - Keith White
      
      When I graduated in the 70s, babies born in NZ more than 4 months’ premature died far more often than not.
      
      🙁
      
      Mother, father, midwives, nurses, ambulance drivers, doctors, everybody fought for these little ones, especially the little ones themselves fought for their lives, and usually lost, back then. NICU was in early stages as a specialty, and ventilators for the little ones scarce and basic…
      
      By the 80s, close to 60% born at that 24 week mark survived, although all too often disabled (80% had one or more life-long disabilities).
      
      Now when we of that generation, esp. the bereaved mums and dads, see abortion being demanded and legalized and implemented for babies up to term…
      
      Oh, and, the observed + studied mortality rate from extreme prematurity in babies under 28 weeks’ gestation back then was the same for Māori babies as for European mothers. Guess we prehistoric white supremacists just did not have our albino shit together when it came to race-inspired infanticide / snark off.
      
      Links for “Te mate pēpi | Perinatal mortality” data easily found online.
      
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      November 29, 2024 2:46pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

NATO Chief meets with Trump at Mar a Lago.
NATO member Countries get shivers down the spine as Trump will enforce they pay their share. For too long the US has carried them. The US can not leave NATO, but they can withdraw funding down to a reasonable amount. Too many freeloaders at the expense of the US Taxpayer.
Common sense under Trump.

https://politicalactionalerts.com/trump-and-nato-chief-chart-new-course-for-alliance-accountability/?
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November 29, 2024 9:55am
- Philview
  
  I have conversations with people who think that the US should defend the Ukraine and pick up the tab but have a different point of view when it comes to sending NZ money or troops.
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:32am
- cmm
  
  “The US can not leave NATO”
  I am sure they can any time they want. It would probably lead to the end of NATO if they did.
  
  They are very unlikely to do so because they want influence in the region.
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:52am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    There are a lot of hoops to jumps through if Trump wants to quit. Trump can not just say “We’re out, we quit.”
    Lots of conflicting and contradicting views on the google machine. Same on duckduckgo.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:12am
    - cmm
      
      On paper, yes. But in reality no.
      
      If USA just walked away, stopped attending meetings, stopped playing NATO war games, stopped paying dues and informed everyone they were no longer going to recognise NATO then it would all be over.
      
      The Germans can wave a bit of paper saying “You can’t…” but who is actually going to stop the USA from doing what they want?
      
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      November 29, 2024 12:19pm
      - Phronesis
        
        Constraints on a US president regarding foreign policy have previously been found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. It’s interesting that when the U.S. was set up they didn’t think that foreign policy would be of much interest to States because it they didn’t predict the rise of the military industrial complex.
        
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        November 29, 2024 12:31pm
      - cmm
        
        Phronesis: I deliberately said USA to keep this distinct from the President deciding. Regardless of who in USA actually did the deciding or has the authority to do so is a different thing. If the USA decided then they can just walk away.
        
        When the USA was formed they were also not a super power. Military alliances of the time were historically short-lived. I doubt anyone at the time considered global or semi-global military/government alliances (NATO, UN etc) which involved multiple countries and have stood for decades (75 years in the case of NATO).
        
        It is quite astounding that NATO has actually survived a lot of political upheaval. For example Portugal was one of the original members, yet has also been through periods of communism.
        
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        November 29, 2024 1:07pm
      - kowtow
        
        Phroen
        
        I suspect that foreign and other power relations /influences were very much to the front of the mind of the Founding Fathers .
        
        That’s why they have that clause about natural born American candidacy for Prez.
        
        Afterall the 13 colonies were cheek by jowl with British , French , Spanish , Dutch Empires .
        
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        November 29, 2024 2:19pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Stop the US doing what they want – yes that is true, but I don’t think Trump would do that. He negotiates, that is how he gets what he wants for America, and himself business wise.
        We will see what happens. It is interesting.
        
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        November 29, 2024 2:32pm
- nz_aj
  
  Poland 4.12, Estonia 3.43, United States 3.38, are all well ahead, while
  Portugal 1.55, Italy 1.49, Canada 1.37, Belgium 1.30, Luxembourg 1.29, Slovenia 1.29, Spain 1.28 are all well short of 2%.
  Given the Russian war on Europe’s border there is certainly an incentive and need for more spending by those countries.
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:00am
- NothingLeft
  
  It pisses me off that the west has not supported Ukraine in life-saving and cost effective ways. Above all they need (and needed)
  – lots of long range cruise missiles (or equivalent big drones) to take out distant Russian infrastructure
  – means to halt Russian aviation (long range SAM).
  – high volume heavy artillery or small glide bombs + launching means to overwhelm entrenched Russians.
  – trenching construction equipment and lots of infantry fighting vehicles (especially Bradleys) to hold front lines.
  
  Most of this is off the shelf, sitting in storage throughout the west, but has been drip fed into Ukraine over years rather than being flooded in immediately, with result of allowing Russia to gradually tool up and a far more deadly and drawn out conflict that has cost the west far more and destroyed Ukraine infrastructurally and demographically. It would have been far cheaper overall to get this stuff into Ukraine quickly and bring the war to a faster resolution.
  
  But this has been prevented by a combination of fear and perhaps more sinister agenda of wanting a long attritional war for arms profiteering and to wreck Russia’s war fighting capacity forever. At end of the day most heavy western military equipment has been rendered obsolete by advances in Drone warfare through this war – and while it could still be valuable to Ukraine facing a technologically backwards Russia, it is instead being hoarded at high ongoing expense for no useful future purpose. “#2 army in the world” fought to a stand still with scraps of obsolete hand-me-down 20th century western weapons.
  
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  November 29, 2024 5:36pm
Jethrod

I get emails from Kantar, ConsumerLink asking me to do polls. I get say 3 a month approx.
They start with a statement saying , we will see if you fit our requirements.
Age, is there an 18 to 24 y o live in the residence, sex m,f or neutered, race ,what area.
So how does a 76 y o, male , with no chidren at home,European from Hawkes Bay not fit the needs of a questionnaire.
Surely not all organizations just need to know what Aucklanders think.
Up until I turned 70 I was rarely turned away from a poll, then have done only a few since then.
Ageist, sexist and racist!!
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November 29, 2024 9:59am
- Paulus
  
  No, Just Normal !
  
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  November 29, 2024 1:48pm
AitchW

Given the damning report on the Covid response by the Labour government and the very clear finding that it wrecked the lives of many New Zealanders I think it is only appropriate that the government issue a unequivocal apology to the victims.
It needs to accept full responsibility for its actions and offer compensation to the victims.
Perhaps then the world might see Ardern for the idealogically driven student politician she was. It might even persuade Hipkins to resign.
About 3 months out from the next election should do it…..
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November 29, 2024 10:18am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Given the damning report on the Covid response
  
  The Covid-19 Inquiry report is out, saying lockdowns and vaccine mandates worked
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018966271/covid-19-inquiry-report-gives-39-recommendations
  
  I wouldn’t call it damning….and the MSM made sure to remind us that “thousands of lives were saved” and NZ fared better than other countries.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:23pm
  - judith8409121
    
    “thousands of lives were saved” by ruining the lives of millions of others- that’s a wonderful epitaph for a socialist country
    
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    November 29, 2024 12:58pm
  - PurplePen
    
    I’d question that. The COVID response measure of success isn’t just the number of COVID deaths. It would be all deaths during the COVID period. The rationale is that there are deaths that occurred because of the response taken such as empty hospitals not doing operations, cancer deaths, suicides from people’s livelihoods turned upsidedown. Then there’s the literal pain and suffering that went on from people not getting operations done such as hip replacements, cancer treatment, etc.
    
    If your measure of success for driving was zero deaths you might say a response that allows only 1 car on a road at any one time was a successful response.
    
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    November 29, 2024 1:13pm
- Keith White
  
  Compensation OK, but lengthy jail time also. Out of the two options for my jab-damaged child, she (and I if I had a say, which I should not, it would be her call) would go for jail time.
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:27pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    Lets not forget the statement from Treasury that our average life expectancy has reduced by approximately 2 years.
    I suppose they will call it collateral damage…
    
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    November 29, 2024 1:36pm
    - MCōs
      
      What’s Treasury doing making statements about life expectancy?
      It’s within the Statistics Department ambit I’d have thought.
      Furthermore
      Life expectancy varies depending on how old the person it at the time. Obviously a ninety year old has a longer life expectancy than a seventy year old.
      Stats describes life expectancy as the average length of life, which I take to mean the average of everyone who is expected to die in a particular year and that hasn’t gone down in recent times
      https://www.stats.govt.nz/topics/life-expectancy
      
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      November 29, 2024 10:02pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Treasury needs demographic info for making plans for pensions etc.
        Statistics aren’t just lists of numbers, they are meant to be used.
        
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        November 30, 2024 7:17am
- Paulus
  
  Ardern we are told is giving lectures in the USA at some us$200,000 a time, on how she handled the Covid situation, as the bezt in the World.
  And they pay and listen to her.
  
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  November 29, 2024 1:47pm
- Paulus
  
  Money, Money, Money its the Rich Man’s Game.
  Thanks Abba.
  
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  November 29, 2024 1:49pm
- Burtland
  
  Robert MacCulloch uncovers the big covid oops
  
  https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2024/11/professor-robert-macculloch-royal_29.html
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:40pm
cmm

“But BNZ chief economist Mike Jones said comparing the NZ and Australian economies at the moment is not all that pleasant if you are a Kiwi.”

When is it ever good?

“A good chunk of Australia’s comparative economic strength was sourced from more favourable external trade conditions with prices for Australia’s key goods exports such as iron ore, coal, and LNG, have held up better than NZ equivalents such as dairy, meat, and forestry, Jones said.”

Hmmm, a pity Cindy’s “orsum inchewisun” didn’t extend to thinking that hydrocarbons could help pay some of the bills.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/money/360502470/how-nz-and-australia-compare-interest-rates-and-inflation
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November 29, 2024 10:48am
- Biscuit
  
  Yo, Steve, and Happy Thanksgiving to you.
  
  Your mention of DJT reminded me of this:
  
  Can you imagine the Thanksgiving menu at Mar-a- Lago:
  
  Big Mac
  Big Mac and Fries
  Cheeseburger
  Cheeseburger and Fries
  Big Mac and Fries and Cheeseburger and Fries
  Filet O Fish
  Filet O Fish and Fries
  Big Mac and Cheeseburger and Filet O Fish, with sides of Fries
  Box of Oreos
  Chocolate Milkshake
  Diet Coke
  ‘The Donald’ – All of the above
  
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  November 29, 2024 10:52am
  - Jack5
    
    Not everything’s rosy across the Tasman.
    
    Australia has reported its sixth consecutive quarter of falls in GDP per capita.
    
    Heavy immigration has outrun economic growth.
    
    Over the year to June 30, Australia’s GDP per capita fell 1 per cent.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:38am
    - cmm
      
      “Australia has reported its sixth consecutive quarter of falls in GDP per capita.”
      
      Ummm, so what?
      
      Australia’s per capita GDP is $US68k. Ours is $US47k. Theirs is almost 50% higher than ours.
      
      That is so far ahead that they could lose GDP per capita for the next 50 years and they will still be ahead of us.
      
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      November 29, 2024 1:14pm
      - Jack5
        
        So what?
        
        Okay, CMM, I’ll make a case …
        
        Australia’s is the most important foreign economy to NZ.
        
        Besides being our second biggest trading partner, Australia controls our banking and is a big influence on much of our other business from shipping to insurance. Many international firms treat NZ as a branch of Australia. Australia’s still our biggest source of overseas tourists, providing about 45 per cent.
        
        New Zealand would likely have been better economically to have taken up the option to become an Australian state.
        
        Although GDP per capita is falling in Australia and is about 29th in the world (NZ is 44th), Australia’s real (i.e. inflation adjusted) GDP in 2023 did grow just over 3 per cent (NZ’s grew 0.63 per cent).
        
        However Australia’s was just the world’s 108th fastest growth rate in real GDP (New Zealand’s rank was 176th).
        
        We in NZ need Australia to boom.
        
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        November 29, 2024 2:25pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    Menu at the Oval Office:
    
    Nil by Mouth
    
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    November 29, 2024 1:55pm
  - sungsamning
    
    Plus supersized helpings of schadenfreude, and liberal tears.
    
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    November 29, 2024 4:00pm
Swifty

Taonga now includes other people’s private possessions, apparently:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/cf-goldie-painting-sale-sparks-debate-on-maori-taonga-and-new-zealands-colonial-history/5PG4TXNXYFG2ROPFGT2Y5NORQI/

And for these private possessions to be given to Maori, this gentleman wants NZ families to pay for it.

Not a lot of mana in a transaction like that I would have thought.
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November 29, 2024 10:53am
- Blog-aholic
  
  I honestly think either these people are delusional (having read the article) or they truely believe that saying these things will actually get them some taxpayer money some how. Either way something is seriously wrong with this country and the Herald giving the time of day to this as in the public interest is also part of the problem!
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:57am
- judith8409121
  
  maori tribes- stealing other peoples stuff since the musket wars (at least) – it’s not going to stop now.
  
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  November 29, 2024 1:01pm
David Garrett

I didn’t see mention of it here yesterday, but it was 45 years yesterday since the Erebus crash. I was a cab driver at the time. I vividly remember picking up a fare from Air New Zealand about 4.30pm IIRC, at a time the aircraft was officially still listed as “overdue”. The woman told me – several hours before it was released publicly – that the aircraft was definitely “down”, having run out of fuel an hour so earlier.

Arguably one of the most shameful things Muldoon ever did was to ruin the late Justice Mahon’s career in order to protect Muldoon’s mate, the GM of Air New Zealand one Morrie Davis.

Incidentally the Privy Council judgment against Mahon did NOT find that his famous “orchestrated litany of lies” comment was incorrect, but rather that he had made mistakes of law, among them not giving those accused of conspiracy an opportunity to contest his findings.

A few years ago I did a case up here in Tonga in which we sued Air Fiji for negligence after a fatal crash. Because airline law is a specialty, we hired an expert from NZ to assist me. He was firmly of the view that the original finding of the then Chief Inspector of Air accidents – that the cause of the Erebus crash was pilot error – was correct.

Having read widely on the issue, my conclusion was that it was six to one and half dozen to the other. Several minutes before the crash, those who had been there before – the captain had not – noticed that Ross Island was “on the wrong side” of the aircraft. Had the captain then immediately climbed to re-establish where they were, the crash may well have been averted.

Instead they kept on following what their guidance system was telling them – a fault that just the other day, 45 years later, caused the death of several Chinese, who crashed off the end of an unfinished bridge, following the directions from Mr Google.
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November 29, 2024 11:09am
- H. Upmann
  
  One of those moments locked in time. I remember exactly where I was on hearing the news.
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:16am
  - David Garrett
    
    H: I just Googled to check my facts about Justice Mahon…died of heart failure aged 62; looked ten years older.
    
    As I said, think a case can be made for pilot error just as one can be made against Air New Zealand for not informing the crew that the co-ordinates in the guidance system – state of the art for the time, in those pre-GPS days – had been changed so instead of flying up McMurdo sound, it was programmed to fly right into Erebus.
    
    And it is quite clear that the management of the airline very well knew that crews were breaching the rules regarding low flying. I have seen footage from earlier flights where they were at 1500 feet at the most. Erebus is 12,000 feet tall.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:27am
    - Don Beckett
      
      My cousin, Des Beckett was on that flight. Des was from the Maori side of our family – a very successful businessman from Rotorua. I was quite close to a couple of his children – my second cousins.
      I had been living in Australia for about 9 month at the time – got a phone call from dad about 6 pm. that evening if I recall. Des was a bloody good guy, and very generous. He was a considerable loss to our family.
      
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      November 29, 2024 11:49am
    - cmm
      
      DG: If you are really interested in what makes accidents happen, then I recommend a book called “The Field Guide to Understanding Human Error”. It is a textbook that use (or at least used to use) in accident investigation courses. Dry as a dingo’s wossname – but very informative.
      
      The basic premise is that designers of systems that involve humans should realise that they have designed human foibles into the system. If the system as a whole breaks (even if that is do to the human part breaking) then it is a systems failure not a “human error”.
      
      Unfortunately corporations like to play the “one rotten apple” game and absolve themselves of guilt by pegging everything on the pilot, now conveniently dead.
      
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      November 29, 2024 12:02pm
- Inandout
  
  DG, a truly terrible event and an unfortunate effect on Mahon after the inquiry. I remember at the time working alongside an Air NZ steward (non gay) who spent his days off moonlighting. He commented with a smile remembering the airline theme song ‘Nobody Does It Better’. Yes, even stewards displayed black humour.
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:45am
- All_on_Red
  
  I knew the Co Pilot Greg Cassin.
  He did my solo flight check when I was doing my Private Pilot Licence.
  On the downwind leg you are supposed to fly at 1000′
  I was at 1200′ and apologised
  He said “dont worry, being too high never killed anybody…”
  
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  November 29, 2024 12:25pm
- Paulus
  
  As a one time part Insurer of AirNZ, and the crash I read the Chippendale Report and agree entirely with it too.
  
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  November 29, 2024 1:53pm
cmm

Around this time of year I spare a thought for an old family friend I’ll call Bill, now passed on, and others who endured what he did.

At the end of November, 1943 or 1944 – I forget which, Bill was operating as an SOE agent in partially liberated Italy. My knowledge of the WW2 history in the area is poor, but as I understand it, the Italians had turned and were now “helping” fight the Germans out of Italy, but there was still a strong German presence.

Bill had linked up with some resistance-style people and was living rough in the hills above a village that he was working with and who were feeding him etc.

Somehow the Germans got wind of this. As he watched from the hills, a small convoy of Germans came into the village and rounded everyone up. There were no fighting aged men as they had gone off to fight in previous months.

All the teenaged males were put up against a wall and executed. All the teenaged females were herded onto a truck and were returned 24 hours later having “entertained” the garrison.

Bill saw this all from his perch on the hill – unable to do anything.

Bill felt guilty about this and felt even worse when the villagers showed him no animosity. He carried that guilt around for the rest of his life. And every year, on that same date in November, he would sit on a hill and pretty much cry from dawn to dusk.

Combat damage is one thing, but this type of damage is at a whole different level. The amounts of guilt, responsibility and duty that young men had to carry was crushing.
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November 29, 2024 11:25am
- David Garrett
  
  cmm: May I recommend a book called “Silent Casualties” by Alison Parr, about NZ veterans who came back with psychological rather than physical injuries. And as I have said here many times, the only “therapy” those poor bastards had was getting pissed with their mates at the RSA. No-one else would have had a clue what they had gone through.
  
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  November 29, 2024 11:31am
  - cmm
    
    Thanks DG, I shall add that to my reading list.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:36am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    War was cruel mentally to many.
    As I have mentioned before, my uncle did 5 tours including Korea and Vietnam twice.
    He would never talk about it. I got small buts of info from my 4 cousins.
    Same with his wife – my auntie. She was from Hiroshima. She saw it all and lost all of her family.
    
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    November 29, 2024 11:48am
Jack5

When NZ moves on from the MMP electoral system, it needs to look at results of systems near us.

For example, the present “female fight” rumbles in Australia’s Senate relate to its preferential voting system, with senators elected for six-year terms, and half of them up for re-election each Federal election.

Lidia Thorpe, Mehreen Faruqi, Fatima Payman, Jacqui Lambie compete rambunctiously to follow Pauline Hanson as top stirrer.

The pattern is get elected for the six-year term as a Green or a Leftist then, foot in the door, set up your own party.

Australia’s senate voting system:

https://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/How_to_Vote/Voting_Senate.htm

For those who haven’t kept up with circus -a commentator likens it to professional wrestling, and another comment calls for a dungeon for the Federal Parliament:

https://youtu.be/oeBs_QLeWNE?si=c0lnzz0ozIOtTXWT
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November 29, 2024 11:32am
- Steve Todd
  
  @Jack5 @ 11:32AM
  
  The Australian Senate electoral system is not a good version of PR/STV. It is basically just another party list system. Although I voted for STV in 1992 and 2011, the 1986 Royal Commission’s version was not a good one, either, being essentially the same. It is just a shame that Bob Hawke had changed the Australian Senate version to favour political parties over individual candidates in 1983, otherwise the Royal Commission might have recommended Tasmania’s Hare-Clark system, who knows?
  
  I have devised a very much better – in my opinion – STV electoral system for New Zealand. Very briefly, my plan provides for 13- and 14-seat “electoral areas” (North Island 92 seats – 1 × 14; 6 × 13; South Island 28 seats – 2 × 14).
  
  (I posted a version of this comment several years ago, but I can’t find it now.)
  
  It all comes down to ballot paper design, to accommodate a system that primarily provides for candidate voting supplemented by Party List voting. The candidates would be listed in their Party columns (with the names in the order determined by the parties, but tumble-rotated). The Party boxes (Group voting squares) would be set out vertically down the RHS of the ballot paper, to the right of the column listing the unregistered party/independent candidates.
  
  Voters would rank-order one or more of the candidates, until they are indifferent as between the remaining candidates whom they have not numbered. (This would be the minimum requirement for a vote to be valid.) That would probably be around six to eight candidates (out of 50 or more). Then, if they so wished, they would rank-order one or more of the parties. These rankings would be used, in order, to fill out the voters’ candidate-preference rankings, ignoring candidates already ranked higher.
  
  So, if a voter ranks eight candidates, including five of Party A (Party-ranked 1 by the voter) and three of Party B (Party-ranked 2 by the voter), then the remaining (say) five candidates of Party A, starting at the top of the list of candidates, would be ranked nine to 13, and the remaining (say) four candidates of Party B would be ranked 14 to 17.
  
  Unlike Australian Senate STV, my system centres on the candidate vote. As I say, once they have rank-ordered one or more candidates, voters can then, if they want, rank-order one or more Parties (or Groups), by numbering each of their preferred parties’ Group voting squares in their order of preference. That way, they can support the remaining candidates of their preferred parties (and, of course, the parties themselves), with the preference-numbering of the candidates (by the data entry operators) continuing on from where the voter left off.
  
  In other words, voters can express their individual preferences for one or more of the candidates while still giving a complete (or near complete) preference order (where there will, necessarily, be many candidates).
  
  This differs from the Australian system, which requires voters to rank-order six parties (above the line) — it used to be just a ‘1’ for their preferred party, and the preferences flowed according to the preferences of the party hierarchies) — or to rank-order at least 12 candidates (below the line). Not surprisingly, something like 90% of voters take the easy option and vote above-the-line. It’s a shocking system.
  
  Apart from giving voters complete flexibility as to how they use their vote, I see my system as enabling the voters to indicate their coalition preferences more effectively; it’s a good way of enabling voters to vote easily, where there are many candidates; and, of course, with 13- or 14-member electoral areas, it increases proportionality. For example, the quota-difference between a 13- and a 14-seat electorate is only 0.47 (7.14% – 6.67%), whereas, between, say, a 5- and a 7-seat electorate, it is 4.17 (16.67% – 12.50%).
  
  The Australian system can be described as “party-centred but candidate-wrapped”, whereas my system can truly be described as “candidate-centred but party-wrapped”, with the emphasis being on candidates rather than parties.
  
  There are right and wrong ways of doing things, Jack. The Australian Senate system is the wrong way; my system is very much the best of the right ways – in my opinion, of course.
  
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  November 29, 2024 3:05pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Trump gives a personal Thanksgiving message to Democrats.

‘Happy Thanksgiving to all, including to the Radical Left Lunatics who have worked so hard to destroy our Country, but who have miserably failed, and will always fail, because their ideas and policies are so hopelessly bad that the great people of our Nation just gave a landslide victory to those who want to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!’

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/trump-gives-a-personal-thanksgiving-message-to-democrats/ss-AA1uWbp4?
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November 29, 2024 12:42pm
carlsbad apple

Is Te Pati Maori still wanting to lower the superannuation age for Maori based on their lower average life-expectancy?
Going down that path would mean non-Maori women, who have the highest average life expectancy of all, would need to have their eligibility age raised to make them the last to receive the pension.
A slippery slope!
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November 29, 2024 1:34pm
- rockape
  
  Do like in the UK, super based on years worked, problem solved.
  
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  November 29, 2024 7:50pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

David Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill. What The Hikoi Taught Us.

DPF has said be email that this is ok to post as long as I don’t repeat it the next day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FncLFWorZqQ
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November 29, 2024 1:41pm
- imalwaysright
  
  Thanks
  
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  November 29, 2024 1:58pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  By* email. God those typos get me and I do read it twice.
  
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  November 29, 2024 2:39pm
Keith White

Police decided not to lay charges against a policeman who used other people’s names to buy firearms so he could hide the purchases from his wife.

A firearms industry spokesman said the incident showed how New Zealand’s firearms registry was vulnerable to misuse.

(A South Island police officer was investigated after allegations surfaced that he illegally acquired firearms and concealed the purchases by registering them under false names. The officer registered firearms under the names of innocent licensed firearm owners, intending to deceive the firearms vendors and Te Tari Pūreke Firearms Safety Authority New Zealand.)

“Council of Licensed Firearms Owners (COLFO) spokesman Hugh Devereux-Mack slammed the incident as evidence that New Zealand’s expensive firearm register is vulnerable to misuse.”

Yeah, and abuse, by the same police-gang management that failed to vet the butcher Tarrant, and then covered up their failures by taking firearms back from lawful and law-abiding owners, while hiding the lazy and / or stupid police staff responsible from public discipline.
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November 29, 2024 2:25pm
cmm

OK, draw me a picture explaining why the cops failed to charge a person who:
1) Made false claims by using other people’s license details when purchasing firearms.
2) Illegally accessed a government computer to acquire this information.

Oh, the person was a cop… that’s why!

“The allegations were initially investigated by the police, who concluded the officer had not committed any criminal offences.
Police accepted the officer’s explanation that he used third-party names to acquire firearms to avoid conflict with his wife.
As a result, they found no grounds to proceed with either criminal charges or disciplinary action.”

So he had a reason to commit the crimes and that was enough!

This is unacceptable. Trust in the government, including the police, is falling. Looking after their own is a very bad look.

When we see videos emerging of police wearing gang insignia then that is doubly troubling.

If the police want to rebuild trust then they really need to lift their game and be seen to be holding their members to a much higher standard.

Such erosion of trust in police likely also contributes to other factors such as increased concern about crime.

The IPCA has reversed the above decision and has recommended charging the cop.

I personally think it should go further than that. Those other cops that tried to hide this offending should also have the book thrown at them. The heaviest book possible. I am sure there are many charges that could be laid.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/south-island-officer-bought-firearms-under-fake-names-misused-police-systems-ipca-finds/YVLLAUCLXRA4JH6HK2ZSZJUSMU/
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November 29, 2024 2:29pm
- kowtow
  
  Whoever gave the police the initial legal advise should be on the block too .
  
  ‘The officer in question was subsequently deemed suitable to continue holding a firearms licence.’
  
  Does anyone seriously think that had that been an ‘ordinary” member of the public he’d have been found suitable to continue .
  
  What a farce . And by golly it really doesn’t pass the sniff or any test .
  
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  November 29, 2024 3:34pm
- imalwaysright
  
  You have to wonder what goes on and gets covered up that we never hear about.
  
  If the new commissioner is worth his salt he will be sacking people this weekend.
  
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  November 29, 2024 5:00pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

This is one of these things that may not work.
Facebook vid clip. Funny af.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/8778710255499842

Nope, only if you are logged in.
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November 29, 2024 3:17pm
- sungsamning
  
  Excellent. I sent it to a couple of friends.
  
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  November 29, 2024 3:53pm
Keith White

Go woke.

Sink ship.

Human error was the root cause of the vessel’s sinking, the report shows.

Chief of Navy Rear Admiral Garin Golding said the direct cause of the grounding was because of a series of human errors, resulting in the ship’s autopilot “not being disengaged when it should have been”.

So…

“Having mistakenly assessed a thruster control failure, standard procedures should have prompted the ship’s crew to check that the ship was under manual control rather than in autopilot. This check did not occur. Remaining in autopilot resulted in the ship maintaining a course toward land, until grounding and eventually stranding.”

And no-one noticed? Cap’n Yvonne? Bueller? Anyone?
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November 29, 2024 3:28pm
- Sparrow
  
  Am I missing something here. I know I left the sea many many years ago but ” check to see if its manual did not happen” If there is not a person on the wheel or whatever manual contraption you have today for steering then you either on auto or nothing. Mind boggling.
  .
  
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  November 29, 2024 4:26pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  “Human Error”
  Ok, which ‘human?’ It did not say “human’s”
  Thing is where is the human/s now?
  Turned a ship into a submarine (hat tip cmm)
  
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  November 29, 2024 7:08pm
- cmm
  
  “a series of human errors” is a systematic failure of procedures.
  
  Military procedures are put in place to correct for single point failures.
  
  Trying to blame it on a “human error” is weak leadership.
  
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  November 29, 2024 7:17pm
- nz_aj
  
  Didn’t realise it was on autopilot. Wow. Negligent or drunk, either way heads should be rolling. Wonder if it was the same software as the Aratere?
  
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  November 29, 2024 8:18pm
cmm

Oops! It was the autopilot what done it… again!

As I said in GD today, there are no “human errors”. There are just system errors.

When a person fails to turn off an autopilot, that is not a failure of a person. It is a failure of the system as a whole.

That is a failure of:
* leadership
* procedures
* training
* …

A system that falls over as soon as one person flicks a switch incorrectly is poorly designed and poorly implemented.

But, like Air NZ with Erabus, large corporations love to blame “one rotten apple” and absolve themselves and their systems of fault.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360504996/live-human-error-behind-navy-ship-hmnzs-manawanui-sinking-when-crew-failed-turn-autopilot
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November 29, 2024 3:30pm
- greybeard
  
  All of those comparisons with the recent Interislander grounding have been proven correct !
  Procedures, training, leadership: you are correct , and there is something bloody wrong when one or more of these prove to be deficient.
  Pride in one’s job no longer exists.
  
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  November 29, 2024 3:38pm
  - cmm
    
    I think the Navy has a different kind of Pride these days…
    
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    November 29, 2024 4:08pm
    - Keith White
      
      Touché!
      
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      November 29, 2024 4:33pm
    - fightingtemeraire
      
      Ok duckey!!!
      
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      November 29, 2024 5:01pm
- imalwaysright
  
  Article:
  “The crew did not realise Manawanui remained in autopilot and, as a consequence, mistakenly believed its failure to respond to direction changes was the result of a thruster control failure.”
  
  Unbelievable.
  I’m sure most commenters here would have worked that out in about 30s.
  The pucker factor of imminently becoming one with a reef would have probably reduced it to about 15s.
  
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  November 29, 2024 4:13pm
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    You would think there would be a large red flashing sign “AUTOPILOT ON” on the main console where everyone on the bridge could easily see it. For such an important system, you would think it would have its own RED LIGHT.
    
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    November 29, 2024 5:52pm
- Simon
  
  Apply some common sense. Try the reverse. If someone wins the VC is that the “system”? By your logic all individual human actions are removed from everything replaced by some borg construct.
  
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  November 29, 2024 4:40pm
- Taieri
  
  As I said in GD today, there are no “human errors”. There are just system errors
  ————-
  
  It was neither a human error nor a system error. It was a classic example of incompetent people promoted far beyond their skills and capabilities.
  
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  November 29, 2024 6:57pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Cmm, is autopilot a bit like AI?
  Things could get out of hand. Elon Musk wanted an ‘off switch.’
  
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  November 29, 2024 7:09pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

The walls are closing in on the Democrats.
Justice Is About To Come For Liz Cheney and the J6 Committee!!!
The lies are starting to come out. Liz Cheney is toast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebcnmOAoXak
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November 29, 2024 3:31pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360504969/report-nissan-may-have-just-12-or-14-months-survive

Here is an idea: produce a 2-litre station wagon, AWD, ICE or mild hybrid, 91-octane, auto, very basic spec, for a very basic price.

A real vehicle , instead of all that other crap.
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November 29, 2024 7:16pm
- cmm
  
  Drop the AWD. Extremely few people ever use AWD and almost nobody “needs” it.
  
  AWD adds expense and complication (ie. more to fail and more expensive services etc) and is harder to work on due to the transfer case etc getting in the way (ie. more expense to do maintenance). It adds weight and drag – consuming more fuel.
  
  Then drop the engine to 1500.
  
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  November 29, 2024 7:39pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/360505224/rare-footprints-suggest-two-our-prehistoric-ancestors-may-have-met
So what ?
I have recently seen footprints like these on Waikanae Beach: there are some really odd people around here.
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November 29, 2024 7:47pm
Scooter

What is it with auto pilots and ships in NZ? I don’t think NZ should get anywhere near AI, just imagine in the future how easy it would be for some advanced computer AI to completely take over this country. Forget about the treaty and Maori taking over, auto pilots now seem to have more intelligence than some it seems.
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November 29, 2024 8:27pm

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