2006 Census Stats

December 6th, 2006 at 11:50 pm by David Farrar

I love all the data you can get from the census. It’s invaluable for politics, for polling and just for knowing about your country. Hell I’d have them annually if I could :-)

A few interesting facts from the 2006 Census:

* We have 4,027,947 people living in 1,471,746 dweelings which is an average of 2,74 people per dwelling
* 14% of NZers identify as Maori
* The Asian population has increased 50%, and is now 8.8%
* A massive 11.1% of respondents went out of their way to write New Zealander as their ethnic group (this is much higher than I expected – 2% in 2001)
* NI pop is up 8.1% and SI 6.7% which should mean an extra NI seat unless they have had a disproportionate number swap to the Maori roll
* We have 744 North American Indians in NZ, 201 Pitcairn Islanders, 108 Estonians, and 39 Falkand Islanders.
* The Iwi with the most members are Ngapuhi at 122,211, Ngati Porou 71,907 and Nga Tahu 49,185.
* 157,134 NZers do not speak English
* 157,100 speak Maori, 85, 428 Samoan, 53,757 French, 24,090 Sign Lanuage, 44,589 Hindi, and 15,873 Gujarati
* For primary means of travel to work, 8.3% work at home, 10.3% were not at work, 58.6% drove, 4.6% were passengers, 3.0% went by bus, 1.0% by train, 1.0% by motor cycle, 1.9% by bike and 5.3% walked
* The average number of children per female is 1.83. Of those with any children it is 2.67
* The most popular occupation was sales assistant at 93,940. We have 14,493 CEOs, 9,270 hairdressers, 9,084 lawyers, 6,996 sewing machinists, 6,075 Sales/PR Managers and 3,069 market research analysts!
* 36.7% of NZers have no religion, 15.7% Anglican, 14.3% Catholic, 10.9% Presbyterian, 1.8% Hindu, 1.4% Ratana, 1.2% Mormon, 1.0% Muslim, 0.2% Jewish and 0.1% Exclusive Brethren
* Only 2% of households have no telecommunications systems, 74% have cellphones, 60% Internet access
* There are 867,696 male-female couples, 2,655 male-male couples and 3,516 female-female couples. Hence only 0.7% of official couples are same sex.
* 112,758 households have no motor vehicle but 222,204 have three or more
* The median age is 35.9 years, but for Maori only 22.7 years
* 23.7% of Maori speak Maori
* The number of people living in the Willis Street Area Unit has increased 51% since 2001, and up 22% in Thorndon.

Oh I could spend days going through all these tables!

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97 Responses to “2006 Census Stats”

  1. stef () says:

    *sigh* I missed being in the last census because I was out of country.

    However I did get to take part in the Korean census…

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  2. mavxp () says:

    Of course, what they dont count are the 1 million odd NZers who are not at home on census day. Approx 150,000 in the UK, countless in Oz, and others scattered further afield -Canada, US, etc.

    Those stats would be quite telling as well.

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  3. Simon () says:

    But since the they are not living in new zealand (and in general not contributing to homeland society) they are not really part of the snapshot of New Zealand.

    The main users of the data are (1) Government planning for future needs (social, infrastructure etc) and (2) Business planning where potential growth is (Sales opportunities and products)

    I suspect you are try to push some sort of political agenda as opposed being interested in where New Zealand is heading as indicated by comparing past and present census!

    David is there a link or do you have to pay for the data ?

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  4. Clint () says:

    Possibly so Simon, but many of us Ex-Pat Kiwis do come home now and then and possibly use the infrastructure provided by the state.
    I am waiting for Dear leader to be toppled in 08 before I come home :)

    I am interested how many NZers identified themselves as Jedi. I suspect they are not classified in the actual figures.

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  5. Camryn () says:

    Overseas Kiwis may not participate in the census, but they can participate in the election. All you need is access to a means of printing the forms and a fax to send it back (or visit an embassy or whatever).

    DPF – Rather than an annual census, how about some surveying? As you presumably know, they can be more statisitcally valid than a census in many circumstances.

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  6. Andrew () says:

    Yes, stats are a goldmine to be sure.

    I’m off digging, but suspect I won’t find out how many NZers have some or part of their income dependent on the public service or welfare entitlements.

    My belief is that this information would highlight just how commercially invasive this government has become.

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  7. dfr () says:

    I can’t find a figure for atheists. Being an atheist is a subset of having ‘no religion’, but it’s not ‘no religion because you just don’t happen to have one’. It’s a distinct claim about your belief status i.e. you are making a very deliberate claim that there are no gods.

    I’m willing to bet that I wasn’t the only person who took the time and effort to write ‘Atheist’. So if the census data can report 112 Jainists, 99 Christian Revival Crusaders, and 12 Chinese Religions nec, why can’t it report the number of people who describe themselves as ‘Atheists’?

    No Pastafarians!

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  8. burt () says:

    “A massive 11.1% of respondents went out of their way to write New Zealander as their ethnic group (this is much higher than I expected – 2% in 2001)”

    So 11.1% of respondents have no idea what the word ethnicity means. Which I guess is no surprise in a culture where we have normally been presented with two options;

    * NZ Maori
    * Other

    Oh well, keep taking the pills and pretending that our socialist flat earth education system is world class.

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  9. mavxp () says:

    “But since the they are not living in new zealand (and in general not contributing to homeland society) they are not really part of the snapshot of New Zealand.”

    Everyday more of the ‘currently contributing new zealanders’ leave. It would be at least interesting to know who is leaving in terms of demographic, where to, why, and over time, how this will change NZ society. It would also be interesting to know who of those that leave return, duration of time away etc.

    I’m sure such stats would be quite useful for future planning too. Its a trend like this that cannot be adequately captured in the census stats, unless someone can educate me on how.

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  10. mikeybill () says:

    Big data set…droool….

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  11. Seamonkey Madness () says:

    “10.3% were not at work

    Interesting. Compared to our lowest-in-the-OECD unemployment rate.

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  12. Fletch () says:

    The most popular occupation was sales assistant at 93,940. We have 14,493 CEOs, 9,270 hairdressers, 9,084 lawyers, 6,996 sewing machinists, 6,075 Sales/PR Managers and 3,069 market research analysts!

    Hehe, reminds me of the “B” ship from The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.
    Here’s a précis I found on it –

    In the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series, we find a spaceship full of people who say they were one of three ships escaping a doomed planet. The “A” ship carried the great leaders, scientists, and thinkers. The “C” ship carried the workers, those who actually made things. Theirs, the “B” ship, consisted of middle managers, hairdressers, telephone sanitizers, and the like. It eventually becomes clear that their planet was not in fact doomed, and that they were the victims of a ploy to rid their world of a useless third of the population.

    LOL !

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  13. Owen McShane () says:

    We are continually told that Maori hold to the local variant of the Polynesian religion. We are told this in District and Regional Plans and this is confirmed in the courts.
    I suspect it is difficult to get a university degree without being told somewhere along the way that “Maori believe ……..” and then being advised of the standard set of Polynesian beliefs.
    And yet this religion does not appear in the census.
    Where are they?

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  14. Gman () says:

    Is there an error in this post? Stuff says that:

    “People who identified themselves as Asian recorded 48 per cent growth and now make up 9.2 per cent of the population. ”

    (http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3890984a10,00.html)

    but David says it’s 8.8 and 50% increase.

    G

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  15. Kent Parker () says:

    All I keep hearing about the census is that there are 100,000 fewer men than women in NZ!!

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  16. weifbqkwjehfbj () says:

    157,134 NZers do not speak English

    That’s one hell of a lot of people, isn’t there a level of English required of immigrants?

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  17. Danyl Mclauchlan () says:

    “10.3% were not at work

    Interesting. Compared to our lowest-in-the-OECD unemployment rate.

    So there’s this new thing called retirement. Perhaps you haven’t heard of it – it’s only been around a century or so . . .

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  18. iiq374 () says:

    So there’s this new thing called retirement. Perhaps you haven’t heard of it – it’s only been around a century or so . . .
    There’s also something called reading comprehension which apparently you both failed.

    For primary means of travel to work was the important part of the statement…
    Of course I’m interested in how the other 6% are getting to work :D

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  19. David Farrar () says:

    Gman – my calculations are based on the raw figures. The stats used by media exclude I think those who didn’t answer the question so they vary slightly.

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  20. Graeme Edgeler () says:

    Gman – perhaps wrong, but not quite as bad as TVNZ’s news story last night:

    “The first results from the 2006 Census reveal New Zealand’s population is surging, with the Asian community doubling in the past five years.”

    “The Asian ethnic group had the biggest growth since 2001, up 48.9 % to reach 354,552. The Asian ethnic group now represents 9.2% of those who stated their ethnicity, which is almost half as many again since the last census in 2001.”

    Maybe the discrepency is in “stated their ethnicity”?

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  21. andrew llewellyn () says:

    “157,134 NZers do not speak English”

    Are tourists & visitors to these fair shores polled in the census?

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  22. Rick Martel () says:

    If 23.7% of Maoris speak the Maori language, and 157, 100 speak it overall, how come most New Zealanders have never heard the language spoken in anything other than a ceremonial – ie, non-living – context? It seems like an absurdly inflated claim.

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  23. Owen McShane () says:

    The reporting on the Auckland growth stats has been appalling.
    The TV news in particular told their stories about the Auckland Regional statistics but continually illustrated the stories with shots of Auckland City and Auckland City people.
    Auckland region is an outrider in international terms in that the Metropolitan Auckland area occupies so little of the region. Hence we get hammered with claims that our public transport system is bad compared to say Australian or other cities. Hell, half the region doesn’t even roads let alone public transport.
    Just for starters – the population of Auckland City grew by only 10% since the last census.
    Rodney District (within the Region) grew by 17.5% – nearly twice as much.
    Most of the percentage growth in the Region is taking place in the periphery – in places such as Rodney,. North Shore and Manukau.
    The City is the laggard but you would never have guessed this from the reporting. Of course Auckland’s numbers of extra people is the largest because of the large initial base – but the growth rates are much higher in the other cities and districts of the region.

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  24. Porcupine () says:

    The census pretty much confirms what we suspect – that we are haemorrhaging males faster then females. Both sexes stick around for their higher education (20-24 yos) but then more males leave and/or don’t come back after their OE. This makes sense in that males probably tend to look at revenue first (as evidenced by the nose dive in male applicants for traditionally high paid jobs which have taken a nose dive in pay). This is probably due to males believing that they will ultimately carry the major financial burden in families. Surprisingly the male female ration seems to equalise in later life. I’m not sure whether this is that males come home to retire, or whether baby boomers don’t leave, being happy in the half-glass, institutionalised hippy paradise.

    http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-6663188,00.html

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  25. Michael (The Right Wing One) () says:

    “A massive 11.1% of respondents went out of their way to write New Zealander as their ethnic group (this is much higher than I expected – 2% in 2001)”

    I did just that – when in Britain last year I had to report a crime, and my ethnicity was recorded as:

    “Other-Other”

    (Not British-English, British-Welsh, or British-Scot, or British-Other, or European-Other, or Irish-Other …)

    So if “Mother England” reckons I’m not one of them, it must be true. Ethnically a New Zealander.

    P.S. Will Catholics overtake the Anglicans in 2011 or 2016?

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  26. battler () says:

    Funny how our politicians and media constantly refer to New Zealand as being a ‘secular’ society when the majority of New Zealanders are affiliated with a Christian religion.

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  27. wayne mapp () says:

    Rick, Just because Maori speakers do not as a rule use maori as a daily working language does not mean they are unable to speak it. Around 23% of Maori being able to speak Maori (with varying levels of fluency) seems about right to me, based on my experience within the Maori community. And in fact more and more Maori do converse in Maori in Maori settings; certainly much more common than say 10 years ago. Wayne Mapp

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  28. Andrew () says:

    Funny how our politicians and media constantly refer to New Zealand as being a ‘secular’ society when the majority of New Zealanders are affiliated with a Christian religion

    Ticking ‘Anglican’ on my census form doesn’t make me a Christian any more than going to McDonalds makes me a hamburger.

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  29. battler () says:

    Andrew

    are you saying that?

    a) Anglican is not a Christian denomination?

    or

    b) People who tick Anglican are making a misdeclaration on their census form?

    Which is it?

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  30. battler () says:

    “P.S. Will Catholics overtake the Anglicans in 2011 or 2016?”

    Will Islam overtake them both in 2056 or 2156?

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  31. mawm () says:

    “There are 867,696 male-female couples, 2,655 male-male couples and 3,516 female-female couples. Hence only 0.7% of official couples are same sex.”
    – I wonder what was filled in on the form in the ‘happily married’ Davis household?

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  32. mawm () says:

    “There are 867,696 male-female couples, 2,655 male-male couples and 3,516 female-female couples. Hence only 0.7% of official couples are same sex.”
    – I wonder what was filled in on the form in the ‘happily married’ Davis household?

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  33. Andrew () says:

    Battler – neither (a) nor (b).

    I am suggesting that ‘secular-ness’ is not established by an absence of affiliation with a religious group

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  34. armoured_passionfruit () says:

    “The Asian population has increased 50%, and is now 8.8%”

    If they keep breeding like rabbits we might as well all start getting used to using chopsticks.

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  35. battler () says:

    If the current ‘majority’ of people want to ‘fit in’ with the ‘majority’ in the years to come they best start brushing up on Sharia Law too.

    Either that or quit queing up for condoms and abortions.

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  36. Andrew W () says:

    Sigh, for some people any excuse will do to roll out the bigotry.

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  37. Sonic () says:

    “we might as well all start getting used to using chopsticks.”

    You mean you don’t know how to already?

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  38. battler () says:

    Sigh,
    for some people any sign of inconvenient truth or reality is an excuse to roll out the term ‘bigotry’

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  39. Andrew Bannister () says:

    Are tourists & visitors to these fair shores polled in the census?

    In theory, yes.

    Porc said:
    The census pretty much confirms what we suspect – that we are haemorrhaging males faster then females. …blah blah blah… this is that males come home to retire, or whether baby boomers don’t leave, being happy in the half-glass, institutionalised hippy paradise.

    My god, you can get all that from a single number.

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  40. battler () says:

    What the figures show is that all the secular humanists are going to find themselves and/or their descendants (assuming their descendants escaped the abortion clinic) being governed by Sharia Law in the future if the growth rates keep up.

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  41. Andrew W () says:

    Well Battler, you better start wetting your dick if you think thats gonna happen, I’ve got 4 kids, so I’ve done my bit.

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  42. battler () says:

    Throw us a bone why don’t you Andrew.
    James Bolger (disloyal republican that he is) had 9.

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  43. Andrew W () says:

    Well I might manage 2 more, will that do?

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  44. Danyl Mclauchlan () says:

    What the figures show is that all the secular humanists are going to find themselves and/or their descendants (assuming their descendants escaped the abortion clinic) being governed by Sharia Law in the future if the growth rates keep up.

    Battler

    * 36.7% of NZers have no religion, 15.7% Anglican, 14.3% Catholic, 10.9% Presbyterian, 1.8% Hindu, 1.4% Ratana, 1.2% Mormon, 1.0% Muslim, 0.2% Jewish and 0.1% Exclusive Brethren

    2006 New Zealand Census Statistics

    Why such inaction in the Senate?
    Why do the Senators sit and pass no laws?

    Because the barbarians are to arrive today.
    What laws can the Senators pass any more?
    When the barbarians come they will make the laws.

    ..

    Why all of a sudden this unrest
    and confusion. (How solemn the faces have become).
    Why are the streets and squares clearing quickly,
    and all return to their homes, so deep in thought?

    Because night is here but the barbarians have not come.
    And some people arrived from the borders,
    and said that there are no longer any barbarians.

    And now what shall become of us without any barbarians?
    Those people were some kind of solution.

    Waiting for the Barbarians
    C. P. Cavafy

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  45. uroskin () says:

    “10.3% were not at work. Interesting. Compared to our lowest-in-the-OECD unemployment rate.”

    Some of us do have a day off occasionally, you know.

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  46. Andrew W () says:

    Yep, well put Danyl, some people need enemies and create them if they have none.

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  47. andrew llewellyn () says:

    “”10.3% were not at work. Interesting. Compared to our lowest-in-the-OECD unemployment rate.”

    Some of us do have a day off occasionally, you know.”

    I’m surprised the number is so low – doesn’t it count those retired & those still at school or preschool?

    “The census pretty much confirms what we suspect – that we are haemorrhaging males faster then females.”

    I suspect whatever the numbers said, you’d have trotted this one out.

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  48. Andrew W () says:

    On another thread Porcupine blamed the “elite” for starting wars, I replied that the elite of all social species has a role to look outward for threats, this is a major part of their social role, it’s instinctive in them, if no threat can be seen, some of those that consider themselves the elite create the threat.

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  49. andrew llewellyn () says:

    ” A massive 11.1% of respondents went out of their way to write New Zealander as their ethnic group (this is much higher than I expected – 2% in 2001)”

    Man, this is the one that gets me (mostly because I think people should take the census seriously as a useful information gathering exercise).

    “The Asian population has increased 50%, and is now 8.8%”

    And remember, “Asian” isn’t one ethnicity, it’s a rollup of all those ethnicities that identify their ancestry with the Asian continent. It’s one of the high level reporting categories used by Dept Stats, a bit like “Pacific Islanders”, instead of “Samoan”, “Tongan” et al.

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  50. Well () says:

    “157,134 NZers do not speak English”

    “That’s one hell of a lot of people, isn’t there a level of English required of immigrants?”

    A little misleading. Included in that number is 75,567 people who don’t speak any language (eg to young to talk) and presumably a fair proportion of the 24,816 people who speak sign language.

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  51. Andrew W () says:

    Of course you also get a load of societies wanna be no hopers who flock at the prospect of conflict in the hope that it will give them an opportunity to become heros and therefore improve their chances of breeding.

    We see this at the start of many conflicts the Hitler youth being a prime example.

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  52. Sonic () says:

    All visitors had to fill in the census, I recall some cruise ship berthed in Dunedin having to arrange for all it’s passengers to complete the form.

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  53. andrew llewellyn () says:

    “Of course you also get a load of societies wanna be no hopers who flock at the prospect of conflict in the hope that it will give them an opportunity to become heros and therefore improve their chances of breeding.

    We see this at the start of many conflicts the Hitler youth being a prime example.”

    Um… is this in the right thread? But anyway, I invoke Godwin’s Law & declare this thread over!

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  54. Andrew W () says:

    Ok! just finishing a line of reasoning that started with the so called Islamic threat.

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  55. andrew llewellyn () says:

    :) Heh – OK, I get it.

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  56. Gareth () says:

    I’m always suspicious of the number of people who ‘speak’ french in the NZ census. It seems unlikely that there are more fluent speakers of french in NZ than of hindi.
    And how come there are so many french speakers but not many german speakers or speakers of other european languages (apart from english, of course)?
    I wonder how many of those french speakers aren’t actually fluent but learned a bit while at uni or picked up some french when they stayed in Paris for four months?

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  57. Andrew W () says:

    Claiming that you speak french is probably a status symbol, even if it’s anonymous.

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  58. Andre () says:

    Que vous parlez le Français réclamant est probablement un symbole de statut, même si il est anonyme

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  59. ToeJam () says:

    Que vous parlez le Français réclamant est probablement un symbole de statut, même si il est anonyme

    Wow, exactly the same as Google’s English/French translator. Come the next census I’ll be ticking quite a few language boxes methinks. For the status and all…

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  60. Peter S () says:

    Gareth,

    Almost everyone who went through the UK schooling system ended up having 5 years worth of French. Ususally not enough to be particularly useful, but enough to tick the box.

    That makes for a lot of immigrants, and in the UK Spanish is usually the 2nd (foreign) option, with German a distant 3rd.

    Semper in excretum sed sole profundum variat.

    Can I tick the Latin box now. ;-)

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  61. Porcupine () says:

    Here (roughly) is the Asian breakdown. I think it is more interesting than lumping such a large portion of the world’s population together.

    Chinese 3.47%
    Indian 2.16%

    SE Asia seems to make up the rest.

    I was surprise about this figure;

    Pakistani 0.05%

    The SP islands make up a large block.

    Australian 0.65%
    American 0.27%

    ~ 11% put down more than one ethnicity

    (above breakdown comes from the “usually resident figures”)

    Summaries and full breakdown here:

    http://www.stats.govt.nz/census/2006-census-data/default.htm

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  62. Idiot/Savant () says:

    Battler: “What the figures show is that all the secular humanists are going to find themselves and/or their descendants (assuming their descendants escaped the abortion clinic) being governed by Sharia Law in the future if the growth rates keep up.”

    Not really. If you’re a fan of dumbfuck straight-line extrapolation (and I am not, but I understand its simplicity appeals to the simple-minded), then we’ll all be godless 20 years before we’re all Muslim (and somewhere in between we’ll all suddenly become Hindus).

    The sheer absurdity of this scenario rather proves the uselessness of such extrapolations.

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  63. battler () says:

    Idiot/Savant

    The west is going through a population implosion at the same time as the Islam/Muslim people are immigrating to every Western Nation with very high growth rates.

    The population of the West is old and imploding. The population of the Muslim/Islam communities is young and exploding.

    If you want to bet your future on a miraculous turn around, fine.

    But as long as our republican Dear Leader keeps the gates open to all comers from the Islam World, and keeps subsidising condoms, the pill & abortion clinics for young kiwi men & women, the numbers will continue to slide against the incumbent population groups of NZ until the balance tips in favour of Sharia…..then you can kiss your secular, socialist, godless fantasy of republic nirvana goodbye.

    Long Live The Queen.

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  64. Andrew W () says:

    Imploding Westerners and exploding Muslims! the mind boggles.

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  65. Andrew W () says:

    Battler, I remember Dame Fena Cooper once relating her response to a young Maori on how to avoid being over run and dominated by the Pakeha, her reply was “marry one” While marriage between Muslim and other faiths is rare today, so once was marriage between Jews and Christian, and between black and white in the US.

    It all goes into the melting pot.

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  66. crasster () says:

    DPF – have you seen this site?

    http://www.statemaster.com/

    Great comparative data and factoids on nations.

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  67. battler () says:

    How many kiwi girls are going to be queing up to be married to Muslims and live a life under Sharia Law?

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  68. Andrew W () says:

    How many Muslims actually live under Sharia law now?
    Iraq under Saddam was a secular islamic state ie. no Sharia law then or now.
    Most nations with Muslim population don’t have Sharia law, Cassius Clay and Cat Stevens both converted to Islam, they didn’t suddenly become cogs in some oppressive collective.

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  69. battler () says:

    The below is from the Daily Mail in the UK:

    “Muslims call for special bank holidays
    By JAMES CHAPMAN

    Last updated at 10:27am on 15th August 2006

    Muslim leaders summoned to talks with the Government on tackling extremism in their midst called for public holidays to mark their religious festivals.

    The Whitehall meeting was set up in response to last week’s airline bomb plot discovery.

    Communities Secretary Ruth Kelly had prepared an uncompromising message on the need to tackle dangerous radicalism.

    But, in what she admitted were ‘sharp’ exchanges, some senior Muslim figures turned the tables yesterday and made a series of demands which also included the introduction of Sharia law for family matters.

    Dr Syed Aziz Pasha, secretary general of the Union of Muslim Organisations of the UK and Ireland, said: ‘We told her if you give us religious rights, we will be in a better position to convince young people that they are being treated equally along with other citizens.’

    Dr Pasha said Miss Kelly had agreed to look at the proposals, though her spokesman insisted later that she did not favour any legal change which would give ‘special treatment’ for the Muslim community.

    Some of the 30 moderate Muslim leaders at the meeting told Miss Kelly that important days in their two main religious festivals – Ramadan and Eid-ul-Adha – should be made public holidays for followers of the faith.

    Sharia law, which is practised in large parts of the Middle East, should also be introduced in Britain, they argued. While it specifies stonings and amputations as routine punishments for crimes, Dr Pasha said he wanted it only for family affairs.

    Under the law, a husband pays his wife a dowry on marriage, and money and assets are shared out between family members in specified amounts after someone dies.

    ‘We are willing to co-operate but there should be a partnership,’ Dr Pasha said.

    ‘They should understand our problems then we will understand their problems.’

    A recent poll suggested that a third of British Muslims would rather live under Sharia law, while a similar number said they also hope Britain will one day become an Islamic state. But Dr Pasha claimed the legal changes he proposed would help convince young Muslims to integrate better into British society.

    The Union of Muslim Organisations of the UK and Ireland claims to be a widely representative umbrella group. However, it does not include more influential and high-profile bodies such as the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the MCB, also attended the meeting but distanced his group from the calls for Sharia law.

    He said: ‘We believe one legal code should apply for all citizens of the UK. There is no place for multiple legal systems for people of different religious or ethnic backgrounds.

    ‘If people object to a certain law they should campaign peacefully and democratically for a change – but only so that it applies to all people, not just Muslims.’ The Government has accused Muslim leaders of a ‘dreadful misjudgment’ for claiming its foreign policy has fuelled the threat of extremism. An open letter, signed by three Muslim MPs, three peers and 38 community groups, said the ‘debacle’ of Iraq, combined with the recent failure to do more to bring about an immediate end to the Middle East conflict, had encouraged extremists who threaten Britain.

    Three hours of talks

    After more than three hours of talks with the senior Muslims, Miss Kelly insisted foreign policy in Iraq and the Middle East was not the ‘root cause’ of fundamentalism.

    But she acknowledged there were ‘different views’ over aspects of Government policy and there had been a series of ‘sharp and challenging exchanges’.

    ‘There is a battle of hearts and minds to be won within the Muslim community, working with the Muslim community to take on the terrorist and extremist elements that are sometimes found within it, not just in the Muslim community, but elsewhere as well.’

    Muslims must feel that if there was frustration on particular issue, there were ‘ democratic channels for that to be vented’, she added. ‘What I do accept is that there is a lot of anger and frustration out there in the community that needs to be properly expressed and vented through the democratic process.’

    Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott and Communities Minister Meg Munn also attended the meeting. Moves being discussed include ‘de-radicalisation forums’ to help young Muslims engage with Government policy, improved spiritual guidance for Muslim university students and support for training of imams. Haras Rafiq, of the Sufi Muslim Council, said: ‘The first thing that we need to do as a community is admit there is a problem.

    ‘It is like being an alcoholic – we need to stand up and say these things and have an open and honest debate.’

    Kharshid Ahmed, chairman of the British Muslim Forum, said: ‘We believe that the threat is still external – it is people coming from outside and leading the radicalisation.

    ‘We need to deal with that before people inside our communities are leading the radicalisation.’

    There are currently eight permanent bank and public holidays in Britain. Three fall on religious days – Christmas Day, Good Friday and Easter Monday. The latter two are common law holidays – not specified by law as bank holidays as they were traditionally days of rest and to go to Church.

    The other bank holidays were made law in 1871, to give their workers time off – causing other businesses dependent on the banks to follow suit. “

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  70. Sonic () says:

    Oh my god! do you realise that if the Labour government in the UK caves in to these Muslim extremists ordinary, god fearing, decent, white, christian Britons will face the horrible prospect of…..an extra day off work a year!

    When will the madness end, string em up, only language people like that understand..

    I had that Enoch Powell in the back of the cab once, clever man.

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  71. battler () says:

    Sonic you are deluded.

    It’s the same strategy Clark has been pursuing for over 30 years – incremental change.

    There will be little objection to an initial additional public holiday here, a muslim prayer room in a school there, some Sharia dispute resolution over there too etc,

    OVER TIME it creeps in, piece by piece by piece. Rome wasn’t built in a day.

    Of course they are not going to come in and say “Convert all Laws to Sharia right now”, the western world would tell them to get stuffed.

    But by creeping it in, creeping it in they will establish their Islamic states in the place of previous free western countries.

    You can stay in your cotton wool socialist fantasy nirvana if you like, while all around you your freedoms will be dissolved and your descendants will awake to find themselves slaves to Sharia in the land our forefathers fought to keep free.

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  72. Sonic () says:

    You think that Muslims are plotting to take the world and then accuse me of living in a fantasy!

    Great stuff.

    Simple question for you though Mr B, if you are so sure that this is happening what do you propose we do about it?

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  73. battler () says:

    Sonic

    If it is happening and we propose to do something about, we would need to awake from our apathetic state.

    The reality, as borne out by the Census, is that there are a lot of people who have no clue whatsover who they actually are, where they have come from, what they are doing here on earth and where they are going.

    This is also borne out in the fact that we have the highest youth suicide rate in the world, doctors prescribe something like 2 million scripts for anti-depressents every year in NZ, and the general social angst amongst young people in this country reflected in gang turf wars, teen pregnancy etc.

    Ours is a lost generation, who clutch at whatever they can in attempt to find some sort of identity, whether it be gangs, illicit sex, alcohol abuse, gambling, crime, drugs, the new religion of ‘environmentalism’ and doomsayers peak oil theory, prostitution, wiccan, satanism, communism, socialism etc etc.

    People have no clue of their roots, and WHO they are.

    People are focussed on ‘what’ they are and what they have – consumerism, materialism, living for the day.

    And in place of finding their identity they look to the state to enforce a “diverse and tolerant” society, and to tax others in order to deliver their various ‘rights’ to all manner of things.

    Alternatively they attempt to ‘find themselves’ through some career and forming part of the government’s ‘economic transformation’ agenda, all the while helping the Government to increase it’s % of GDP spending close to 50%, and setting up all manner of commissions to instruct us how to live our lives.

    It is due to this that our society has become so Nihilistic and self destructive to the point where people don’t even want to continue their family line so go to the abortion clinic to terminate the lives of their descendants before they are even born.

    I would suggest that if we are to avert the end of civilization as we presently know it, a starting point is for people to ask, and find answers to the questions of-

    1. Who they are.
    2. Where they came from.
    3. What they are doing here.
    4. Where they are going.

    Only at that point will people have something worth preserving and defending in the face of potential takeover by other groups who DO have some sort answers to the above questions.

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  74. crasster () says:

    Christ on a Stick, Battler… do you HONESTLY and I mean HONESTLY believe that a few arseholes living in caves in Pakistan really threaten civilisation?! Do you honestly believe that civilisation is so delicate?

    Me, I am not worried about that issue in the slightest. If the immense wars of the 20th century – including the Cold War – failed to dent Western civilisation – I really do not think a handful of deluded religious zealots living in caves (or bedsits in London) represent much of a threat.

    Don’t get me wrong, these people might represent a threat to security – just like we need to be mildly worried about potential car-jacking or being murdered by a deranged family member. I mean it’s a risk – it’s just not a huge risk.

    Let’s not ascribe any more power to these arseholes than they deserve. Aside from their limited power to hurt people (and, yes, it is limited), the only power these turkeys have is the influence guys like you ascribe to them.

    You know, my family lived through the Blitz – when literally thousands upon thousands of bombs were dropped with very little precision out of the sky. British civilised society survived that onslaught. I doubt that if you were to take all of the explosives actually detonated by Islamic terrorists against Western targets since 2001 would amount to much more than the amount of explosives used in a week during WW2.

    The only thing that really does worry me about the current situation is that there are people who, because of fear and ignorance, are willing to sacrifice core values such as freedom and tolerance.

    Sacrificing civilisation to protect civilisation is not a solution.

    You chose the handle “Battler” – why don’t you act like one. Forget this defeatist bullshit about civilisation. We’re so much stronger than that. Fuck this minority of thugs who are willing to use violence to push their agenda.

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  75. meatball () says:

    Man, this thread is getting boring.

    Look at you all debating the stats.

    I read this and just cant get inspired,I need a juicy debate.

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  76. peanut () says:

    “Man, this thread is getting boring”

    The reason I like to post the odd blog, is to have a say in how I feel.

    If you dont like it,why bother posting anything?

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  77. jan () says:

    “23.7% of Maori speak Maori”

    Does anyone know the age groups of this % ?

    It would be interesting to know if the language was being spoken by older or younger Maori, to see if the language is continuing to grow.

    DPF?

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  78. Andrew Bannister () says:

    Imploding Westerners and exploding Muslims! the mind boggles.

    No no, it’s quite simple really:

    Yin-Yang.

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  79. Sean () says:

    Michael (The Right Wing One) – “P.S. Will Catholics overtake the Anglicans in 2011 or 2016?”

    Hmmm, it will be close in 2011. 2006 compared to 2001: Anglican down 30K, Catholics up 21K.

    Anglicans still outnumber Catholics by 47K, so based on the difference between the last two census’s, it will be close next time around.

    Important to note that declining Anglican numbers have been slowing (% wise, it might be increasing). Catholic numbers hover around the 500K mark (in recent census’s), and number probably quite dependant on immigration (policy).

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  80. Fred () says:

    Yo’all ACTUALLY put your name on the census form for non-inclusion in NZ’s largest non-name retained non-data base.

    Sorry Hulun, that’s commercial in confidence.

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  81. Fletch () says:

    Battler, well said.

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  82. battler () says:

    “Christ on a Stick, Battler… do you HONESTLY and I mean HONESTLY believe that a few arseholes living in caves in Pakistan really threaten civilisation?! Do you honestly believe that civilisation is so delicate? ”

    No.

    But I believe that over 1 billion adherents of an extreme religion immigrating to every western nation in the world and requesting that their laws and customs be accepted have a good chance of overthrowing westerners who have no clue where they come from and are living a nihilistic life.

    “Me, I am not worried about that issue in the slightest. If the immense wars of the 20th century – including the Cold War – failed to dent Western civilisation – I really do not think a handful of deluded religious zealots living in caves (or bedsits in London) represent much of a threat. ”

    Try 1 billion adherents spreading themselves accross the world with a goal to establish their laws accross the globe.

    “Don’t get me wrong, these people might represent a threat to security – just like we need to be mildly worried about potential car-jacking or being murdered by a deranged family member. I mean it’s a risk – it’s just not a huge risk. ”

    Time will tell whether it was a huge risk or not.

    “Let’s not ascribe any more power to these arseholes than they deserve. Aside from their limited power to hurt people (and, yes, it is limited), the only power these turkeys have is the influence guys like you ascribe to them. ”

    Uh, No. We have voluntarily handed the power to them to come into our country and become citizens of our land, run for parliament and therefore make our laws, and therefore through us handing it over to them, replace our laws and customs with their own.

    “You know, my family lived through the Blitz – when literally thousands upon thousands of bombs were dropped with very little precision out of the sky. British civilised society survived that onslaught. I doubt that if you were to take all of the explosives actually detonated by Islamic terrorists against Western targets since 2001 would amount to much more than the amount of explosives used in a week during WW2.”

    The difference this time around is that our civilization can be taken over from the inside using our very own ‘democratic’ process.

    “The only thing that really does worry me about the current situation is that there are people who, because of fear and ignorance, are willing to sacrifice core values such as freedom and tolerance.”

    The trouble is these people only want freedom when it suits them, and only want tolerance of people who agree with them. Our very own government preaches freedom and tolerance but is intolerant towards those who don’t share their views.

    “Sacrificing civilisation to protect civilisation is not a solution. ”

    My point exactly. All these people preaching “diversity” and “tolerance” are actually sacrificing civilization to appease those who disagree with our civilization.

    “You chose the handle “Battler” – why don’t you act like one. Forget this defeatist bullshit about civilisation. We’re so much stronger than that. Fuck this minority of thugs who are willing to use violence to push their agenda.”

    I’m not defeatist about civilization. What I am pointing out is the people in our very own midst who are disloyal to our civilization and are using our own democratic system in a way that could eventually enslave the descendants of those who fought to protect our systems in the first place.

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  83. thehawk () says:

    Aren’t Muslim women simply meat/prostitutes?
    Surely it is every Christian male’s duty to rape them and so weaken their strain?

    Or did I get mixed up there?

    If you are appalled then good! Think how I feel when the reverse is argued and the perps are not immediately arrested.

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  84. Andrew W () says:

    Many Muslims who come to the West, if asked, describe the west as “decadent”, hearing them describe Western civilisation this way often sends members of the conservative right into indignant fits.

    But specifically what is it Muslims find “decadent”?

    As an educated guess I suspect it would be things like:

    1. Sex before marriage.
    2. Weak punishments for criminals.
    3. Poor parental control of kids.
    4. Solo mums living on Government handouts.
    5. Abortion on demand.
    6. Pornography and legalised prostitution.
    7. Not enough respect for God
    8. Divorce too easy.
    9. Man and Wife not having the respect for each other that they should
    10. People generally not taking responsibility or being held responsible.

    Now, if you ask members of the conservative right, the old Nat school, what they think is wrong with society they would probably say something like:

    1. Sex before marriage.
    2. Weak punishments for criminals.
    3. Poor parental control of kids.
    4. Solo mums living on Government handouts.
    5. Abortion on demand.
    6. Pornography and legalised prostitution.
    7. Not enough respect for God
    8. Divorce too easy.
    9. Man and Wife not having the respect for each other that they should
    10. People generally not taking responsibility or being held responsible.

    Sure there are differences but Islam is a conservative religion, it’s a pity that Western conservatives, especially the more old style conservatives, are too blind to see that politically, And morally they actually have a lot in common.

    People are going to say things like:

    Muslims will try to force others to convert to Islam – Bullshit, many Muslim countries have nonmuslim minorities living in peace within their borders. Though I’m sure many Muslims would like others to convert to their religion, so do JW’s, and other Christian sects.

    Muslims will force their laws (Sharia law) on Westerners, in fact, tourism by westerners is encouraged in most Muslim nations, Morroco, Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey, UAE, Bahrain, Quatar, Pakistan, Indonisia, etc, Tourists are expected to be polite with regard to local customs, as would be expected of tourist in any country. Off hand Only Saudi Arabia discourages Western tourism, others aren’t attractive to tourist because of conflict, but that applies to nonmuslim nations also.

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  85. Pascal's Bookie () says:

    battler
    What difference, if any, do you see between the argument you are making here and that of the National Front?

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  86. sonic () says:

    Battler, no offence mate but you have no answers except some starnge return to an imaginary 1950s.

    There are extremists in the world, of all stripes (I could give you some quotes from US right-wing “christians” that would turn your hair) however the way to deal with that is not by stigmatising millions of people. The solution is to strive to understand each other and marginalise the loony fringe.

    This may sound silly Battler but reading your comments over the last few months I really get the impression you are a good guy, someone with an open mind. I would suggest that you visit your local mosque, talk to the people there. I bet you would find that you have a lot more in common with the people there than you think. Indeed, when it comes to social issues you are probably closer to their views than I am.

    Just think about it.

    S

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  87. APL () says:

    Well said Battler,

    It’s good to see someone stand up to the defeatists, appeasers and egocentrics who only want to demonstrate their perceived moral virtue to the blogosphere !

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  88. Spirit Of 76 () says:

    That oleaginous cretin SONIC, asked what can be done about the supposed surge in radical Ialsm, well here’s a start.

    “Support Women’s rights –

    Real rights, not feminist pieties – in the Muslim world. This is the biggest vulnerability in Islam. Not every Muslim wants to be Gloria Steinem or Paris Hilton. But nor do they want a life that starts with genetial mutilation and ends with an honour killing at the hands of their brothers. The overwhelming majority of females in Continental battered womens’ shelters are Muslim – which gives you some sense of what women in the Middle East might do if they had any womens’ shelters to go to”

    Are you left wing social liberals too gutless to ask the questions or what ?

    More to come…

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  89. Porcupine () says:

    Battler, I agree with you on many issues but in this one I would have to agree with sonic. We’ve had this argument a few weeks back too. There is a criminal element and oppression in all societies but you can’t tar all members of that society with the same brush. (eg lets pray the Dutch don’t think we’re as bad as we look right now eh?)

    If you look at history the vast majority of migration was to escape oppression. I think you will find that the freedom and values of a society such as ours is what attracts most people here, not some desire to become a mole or a 5th columnist in some overall master plan.

    Don’t you think that there is a possibility that contact with the western democracies will actually have the reverse effect and may speed up the rate of change in the Muslim world? Remember part of the turmoil you are seeing in Islam is to do with modernisation, just as our culture and Asian culture has gone through massive turmoil as we freed ourselves from oppression by the aristocracies and (the old interpretation of) religion. There were massive battles between fundamentalist religion and freedom in our Renaissance but you have to admit that we’ve got it better now, despite all our problems and petty bickering.

    I think I know where you’re coming from but the world has changed for all of us. The way to make our society safer from criminal extremists is to tackle many of the fundamental issues on Andrew’s list – crime, personal responsibility, good parenting etc and the rest will follow.

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  90. ra () says:

    Us Maori better start breeding before the Asians catch up, and perhaps catch up with them whities…

    “Where da white women at?”

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  91. Fred () says:

    Alas ra…
    Some things are a bridge too far.

    I’m looking for a massive Thai immigrant intake, perhaps we could do a swap about deal with some of our incumbents…

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  92. battler () says:

    Perhaps we could bring back some of the tens of thousands of Maori who are in Australia….

    Although why would they want to come back to a country where the government controls nearly 50% of GDP and has a PM who wants to take away the Royal Protection and rights they were granted under the Treaty of Waitangi?

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  93. Fred () says:

    Nah, bat ….Aussie Maoris couldn’t stand the presumption of sucess via institutional largess in NZ.

    They prefer, and rejoice in, their own achievements in Aust….

    Nary a beneficial owner to be seen….

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  94. Porcupine () says:

    Here’s the interesting stats on working in NZ on a usually resident basis (ie excluding visitors)

    . % of over-15s % of popn

    Employed Full-time 48% 38%
    Employed Part-time 14% 11%
    Unemployed 3% 3%
    Not in Labour Force 30% 24%
    Status Unidentifiable 3% 3%

    The Not in labour force is pretty much identical in size to the over65s + 15-24 year old group, manyh of whom are presumably in training.

    But many of those two groups will also be in the part time group.

    I am going through the stats to try to get public vs private sector employment.

    Given that our tax take is 34% of GDP and we are a mechinisation poor, cheap labour rich economy I would say it would not be unrealistic to say that 34-50% of the population is directly dependent on the government for their income.

    Sustainable?

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  95. Spirit Of 76 () says:

    Porcupine; You’re correct. The social-democratic welfare state is not sustainable. Let us observe the plight of that post-nationalist pseude state, the ‘European Union’ over the next few years – They are screwed, big time. Take a look at what has become of that post WW2 economic powerhouse Germany !

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