Wind Power

April 23rd, 2007 at 8:35 am by David Farrar

I am a huge fan of wind power. I wouldn’t at all mind a view with wind turbines in the landscape. I’m still disappointed that the plan to have wind turbines at the entrance to Wellington Harbour failed to proceed due to objections from residents on *the other side* of the harbour. It would have been magnificent to have people sailing and flying into Windy Wellington to see rows and rows of wind turbines.

Anyway the Dom Post has an editorial on how the biggest obstacle to wind power, is – yes the Government. The RMA delays have threatened the viability of the Makara project, and the proposed deforestation tax is threatening a planned wind farm northeast of Pauatahanui.

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159 Responses to “Wind Power”

  1. Murray () says:

    Shania Twains house is “visual pollution” unless its moved three feet to the left but honking great greenie propeller heads on the skyline aren’t?

    Must be because Genetix doesn’t own shares in a building company.

    Why are we pissing about with expensive, inefficient now technology when we’re sitting on 10,000 years of cheap energy and a lot of new jobs and a revitalised rail industry to go with it?

    Its good enough for China to open a new coal plant every week.

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  2. southern raider () says:

    David you failed to mention about how many of these companies are ripping off private property owners. The Govt has taken all the carbon credits from forestry owners and is working on distributing these to whoever they feel is worthy. At least two power companies have already received these credits and sold them on overseas carbon exchanges to the value of $15 and $25 million. They then use this money to invest in wind farms.

    I’m all for renewable energy, but it’s a farce when a company is indirectly given money to fund a revenue generating activity.

    I would love to be gifted some credits, sell them internationally, take the money, make an investment and then realise revenue for no cost.

    Not to mention that “our” credits are permanently going off shore. What are Labour going to sell when they are all gone?

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  3. Wycroft () says:

    It’s taken a long time David but finally an issue has arisen where we have diametrically opposing views.

    Windfarms: inefficient, UGLY, noisy and a waste of money, IMHO.

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  4. insider () says:

    The more we rely on wind the more we will rely on coal and other fossil fuels – that’s if you want a reliable power supply because it needs to be backed up. How well does your computer run on an intermittent power supply? Of course that also means the price will go up because you effectively have to build two power stations every time you build a wind farm.

    And Makara, likely to be one of the best in the world according to Meridian, is also not financially viable at current prices, again according to Meridian.

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  5. Redbaiter () says:

    “I am a huge fan of wind power.”

    How can you say that at the same time as you claim to be an economic liberal? There’s not one wind farm I know of that runs at a real profit and/or is not subsidised by more profitable industry or more likely government.

    In fact the myth that wind can be a viable source of power is used to justify massive tax grabs and keeps hundreds of shiny arsed non productive bureaucrats in jobs. Its a quasi religion that retards development on more realistic power sources.

    Lets dump the silly wind power fad, and move on to real solutions to electricity shortages. For example, Queensland is moving to natural gas from coal beds, with real and profitable investments, not bureaucratically driven politically correct green dream inefficiencies funded by the ever suffering taxpayer/ power consumer, held hostage to the market manipulations of government owned power companies.

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  6. Andrew Bannister () says:

    Who was it that convinced people that wind-turbines are ugly. I could say the same about sea views, but that doesn’t make it true.

    Murray, we are not sitting on 10,000 years worth of coal. We are sitting on about 1000 years worth, if we keep using it at current rates. As for wind-power being expensive and inefficient, so were steam engines and internal combustion engines when they first appeared. However, they became hugely more efficient over time, as will wind turbines.

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  7. Redbaiter () says:

    Yawn, Mr. Bannister with his usual bigotries. Windpower will become more viable “over time”, (like IC engines) but future coal usage must only be predicted using “current rates”..

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  8. llew () says:

    I want one.

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  9. Ben Wilson () says:

    Wind power does seem to make sense in Wellington. Ugly schmugly. Everything’s ugly to someone.

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  10. Horace () says:

    Tilting at windmills.

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  11. Andrew Bannister () says:

    Redbaiter, using current rates is conservative.

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  12. Murray () says:

    Well my source is a geologist Andrew, whats yours? I come from a mining family.

    Even if it were 100 years its better than stuffing an MP’s pockets and I think with 100 years we can do better that ugly propeller caped skylines.

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  13. Nominous () says:

    Now there’s a proposed deforestation tax? Aha-ha-ha-ha-ha. Don’t these morons know that carbon dioxide levels improve by cutting down mature trees? It saves them from rotting and allows new flora to be planted. It’s the new growth that consumes carbon dioxide.

    Once again environmentalism is proven to be an excuse for more taxes, as it makes no logical sense otherwise.

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  14. Andrew Bannister () says:

    Solid Energy.

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  15. Graeme Edgeler () says:

    Nominous – I think it’s more specifically a “deforestation” tax (i.e. getting rid of a forest). Cut down all the trees you want, but it has to remain a forest (so it can have more growth – which dairy farming, for example, cannot).

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  16. towaka () says:

    Did you hear the CEO of Genesis the other day?He said that if they price the 1000mw coal fired station at Huntly out of the market with carbon taxes,then expect whopping increases in your power bills.

    Also with the reports coming from the Great South Basin,we might soon have so much gas and oil it will make all the investment in expensive wind power all the more silly.

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  17. nigel201065 () says:

    If anyone out there want to see what a hideous sight these wind farms are they only have to look at the hills over San Fransico they are truely ugly

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  18. kyotolaw () says:

    What happens when the sun rises or sets behind a wind turbine? Strobe effect. Really not pretty…

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  19. Fred () says:

    Today’s trading hint…
    Windfarms destroy real estate values.
    Visually offensive destroyers of huge areas of open space + appalling noise.

    Factor it in.

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  20. insider () says:

    Towaka

    How is all that gas going to get to where it is most needed? Don;t beleive everything you read on the prospectivity. Crown Minerals always goes a bit quiet on permits when they don;t pan out as well as thought.

    If they do pan out the Govt will have an interesting moral choice given the approach of the energy strategy

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  21. Jeff () says:

    Was in Esperance in Sth WA a few weeks back and you can walk amongst the turbines. Have to say they were going flat out and hardly any noise. I think they look great and why shouldn’t we develop alternatives to polluting non renewable forms of electricity. Solar wind and tidal could suppliment traditional forms and could become cost effective with further development. Some of you will not be happy until the planets resorces have been totally depleted and we are all back living like cave men.

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  22. Razork () says:

    Ban wind farms now!
    If you really care for the enviroment how can you support the visual pollution these hulking great ugly monsters are?

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  23. ben () says:

    Environmentalists are having enough influence to have to start weighing up conflicting environmental benefits, e.g. wind power vs. deforestation. Since there is no objective measure of environmental goodness, can we assume environmentalists will from now on be at war as much with each other as everyone else?

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  24. llew () says:

    Wonder how big one would need to be to generate enough power for just one house?

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  25. Ross Nixon () says:

    If wind power is “not financially viable at current prices,
    perhaps they could be modified to bring in some extra income. Just put some clip-on seats near the end of each blade. Should be an exciting ride for some, (depending on wind speed).

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  26. Fred () says:

    Yawn….the only way to provide large baseloads is Nuc or more hydro.

    A wee nuc plant I can’t see in the valley is the perfect solution to Greens craving the “peasantisation” of the populace.

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  27. dad4justice () says:

    7 plus m’s of rainfall per year in Fiordland,thats a lot of energy going down the hill . Where’s Sir Rob , think big – h2o big bucks eh ? Wind farms are for farters!

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  28. sonic () says:

    If we need a nuke plant we could put it on Fred’s garden, I’m sure he would have no problem with that!

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  29. Redbaiter () says:

    The great egalitarain socialist Klark of course wouldn’t even have a housing development in her street..

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  30. sonic () says:

    How about you Mr Baiter, you up for a nuke plant in your backgarden?

    Thought not, funny how the Nimby in all of the nuclear fans comes out when you ask that question.

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  31. dad4justice () says:

    Sonic alert -sonic alert – all nuke scuds are locked set and ready to rock and roll – five , four , three….

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  32. Redbaiter () says:

    A question that like most asked by the infant Sonic, has absolutely no relevance, for if backyards were the real concern, nothing other than backyards would ever be built.. what loons the left are..

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  33. dad4justice () says:

    Robin has said the launch went very well.

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  34. dad4justice () says:

    “what loons the left are..”

    wonder if 1080 kills them ?

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  35. Fred () says:

    Cracker idea from the weasel.

    Put the 4 or 5 nuc plants needed exactly where the windfarms are now…
    the nucs are barely visible on 10 acres…..versus the tens of hundreds of thousands of acres + for equivalent non base load generation from the Greens latest wet dream.

    Wind means no baseload.

    Nuc power is the perfect solution except if your religious dogmas object

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  36. sonic () says:

    “has absolutely no relevance”

    Of course it does, you seem all gung-ho for nuclear power, unless of course someone wants to build the lpant near you, then you get all NIMBY.

    Glad we settled that one.

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  37. dad4justice () says:

    NIMBY sonic -please explain ? as I need to reset tracking devices.

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  38. sonic () says:

    Oh no Fred, we are going to put them right next door to your house.

    After all they are totally safe, I’m sure having a fission reactor next door would do wonders for your property value.

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  39. dad4justice () says:

    We have a fission reactor in the Bat Cave , they’re great to warm your socks up the morning sonic silly thingy .

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  40. insider () says:

    Sonic

    Most of us probablywouldn’t want the Clutha dam or huntly station near us either (or many other major public assets like major roads or swimming pools. Jeez even an inoffensive aquarium on largely desolate part of Wellington;s south coast got hundreds of objections.) It is one of the dilemmas about infrastructure, but that doesn;t negate the need or make the proponents hypocrites.

    Fortunately we have low land intensification levels so have plenty of options for such things that will have limited impact. We could put a nuke plant next to Glenbrook steel mill. Got a good customer on the doorstep and it is already industrialised so fewer consent issues.

    Not that nukes are a realistic economic option anyway, we can;t even afford radiographers….

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  41. sonic () says:

    The point I was trying to make insider is that for all the theoretical (and in my opinion veru dubious) benefits on N-Power is is a non starter here as no-one would allow it o be built anywhere near them.

    Add in our rather active geology, it is a rather silly idea.

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  42. Redbaiter () says:

    Thanks Insider. Isn’t it amazing how the left, who like to portray themselves as THE INTELLIGENTSIA never get even the most simple concepts??

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  43. dad4justice () says:

    Sonic – you should know all about the active geology as you live underground , what about water power ?

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  44. insider () says:

    Sonic

    Is suppose the point I was making is that your point applies to almost anything at the moment, whether it be relatively benign wind farms or the higher risk nukes as the BANANA mentality is becoming all pervasive.

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  45. Fred () says:

    Poor weasel….he has no argument so does he does a nimby.

    No problem about sighting any nuc plants away from EVERYONE’S back yard, comrade.

    Tons of space out there. Lots of non visible options a million miles from anywhere close to main power grids come to mind….like way over the back of the miltary training areas in the Kaimanawa etc.

    Too easy.

    Let’s go with inadequate economy crippling wind power that shuts down when the wind doesn’t blow ….very Kiwi left.

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  46. Peter S () says:

    sonic,

    I’m sure you were not meaning back yard as literal, but meaning nearby.

    I do not like things like wind farms etc. because of their visual impact on the environment. Having travelled in central Spain, where every mountain has shrines & poser lines on it (and every road is lined with massive billboards), I’d hate to see our views, which generate so much tourism income, spoiled in that way.

    I also have a problem with most hydro-electric schemes because of their impact on things like natural river flows, as well as often drowning some pretty impressive gorges.

    If a nuc. poser station could be built with minimal visual impact, then I would have no issue in living near it- no more than any other heavy industry or power generation means.

    That said, as I live in a region of high volcanic activity I’d suggest that near where I live would not be the best choice for locating a nuclear power station. ;-)

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  47. Peter S () says:

    That should have been power lines not poser lines (sounds too much like a collection of body builders)! ;-)

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  48. Redbaiter () says:

    Yep, keep trying Insider, you might eventually get through.. Lucky for Sonic that like most leftists he doesn’t know the meaning of shame, or he’d have died a dozen deaths from it by now.. remarkable how it suddenly changes from “you wouldn’t like it right next door” (like who would like anything right next door) to “its the geology of NZ”..

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  49. Fred () says:

    Oh what a crock….

    The weasel reckons nuc plants can’t be designed to cope with any earthquake senario imaginable?

    Geeez, the Japanese are gonna be shocked….shocked I tell you.

    If you’re gonna BS more than usual at least try to back and fill.

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  50. insider () says:

    Red, thanks but no thanks, I’d rather you weren’t a cheerleader for my comments. Your tone is generally offensive and I don’t want to be associated with that.

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  51. dad4justice () says:

    Fred I have for sale cheap sonic bullshit detectors . Are the lefty’s really that stupid ?

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  52. Fred () says:

    Nice style of a tone Red.

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  53. Redbaiter () says:

    Good grief, you clueless wank, I’m not cheerleading, I’m merely remarking on your comments as they were more or less what I was about to post myself. Get a life simpleton, I don’t give a damn who you want or don’t want to “be associated with”. One day you’ll grow up and realize that pushing the concept of “offence” is a leftist snow job that has allowed bullshit artists like Sonic to get away with far too much.

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  54. Fred () says:

    Yep dad, they are.

    Nimby solved , earthquakes solved……all that’s left is dogma.

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  55. llew () says:

    Good work guys. Setting the bar high for the start of the week.

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  56. Redbaiter () says:

    Thanks Fred. The political correctness is so thick around here you can cut it with a knife..

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  57. insider () says:

    QED

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  58. sonic () says:

    Redbaiter seems not to understand you can have more than one point in an argument.

    No surprising really when his only point ever is “the evil communists….”

    I see Fred is still no keen on having a plant nearbye and now wants it ” a million miles from anywhere”

    Why should that be Fred, surely you want this totally safe facility near where there is a workforce and facilities for it.

    Still easy to be for nukes in NZ when you are living 2000k away eh Freddie boy?

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  59. dad4justice () says:

    Thank God for that redbaiter as I thought you might of have become a soft cock nanny liberal, put a band aid on my poor offended bleeding heart type person .
    I exercise my bloody well right of the Royal prerogative of mercy to say thank fuck for the blue/greens as the wind farms are shit just like the red/green deluded government !!

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  60. sonic () says:

    Fred, Red and Dad4Justice

    The A-Team or the Three stooges?

    We report, you decide!

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  61. Redbaiter () says:

    “We?”

    Poor Sonic, still suffering from the collectivist disease.. thinks he’s a shoal fish.. or perhaps a lemming..

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  62. dad4justice () says:

    Put sonic in a nuke reactor and it would short it out -sending it haywire and the smell would kill everybody !!!

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  63. llew () says:

    So… uh… how many do I need to power my house? Be cool if it was pumping water too.

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  64. dad4justice () says:

    Attention calling all sonic friends please stand up from your fox holes and walk forward in support of your comrade in battle .

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  65. Fred () says:

    Run weasel run….
    address the ability to site away from everyone and totally earthquake proof….or scuttle off… you’ve been done sunshine.

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  66. Redbaiter () says:

    “Be cool if it was pumping water too.”

    Hahaha..

    Yet another example of leftist intelligentsia.. no idea at all have you Llew?

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  67. sonic () says:

    I think I’ll leave the three stooges to wallow in the mess they have made of this thread.

    Totally earthquake proof buildings from Fred (Volcano and tsunami proof too no doubt), communist conspiracy theories with a dash of swearwords from Mr Baiter and of course the weirdo rants of dad 4 justice.

    I think Mr Farrar, you are going to have a think about your comment policy.

    x

    S

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  68. dad4justice () says:

    Bat Cave signal sent to son of sonic -james sleep – please move forward to the reactor site , thank you, as sonic wants to say hello ?

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  69. Redbaiter () says:

    Sonic-

    1) Nobody mentioned communists except yourself

    2) Fred raised a number of perfectly valid arguments that you were totally incapable of addressing

    3) Whining about Mr. Farrar’s comment policy is a bit rich coming from a (pseudo) liberal whose answer to complaints of unsuitable television is to tell the complainants to “change the channel”

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  70. ChickenLittle () says:

    ‘I think Mr Farrar, you are going to have a think about your comment policy.’

    Indeed Sir David – you notice no problems on this thread until Sonics first comment at 1.53pm – then all downhill from there.

    The answer is obvious.

    Plunk.

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  71. dad4justice () says:

    What a cry baby sonic !!

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  72. PaulL () says:

    Happy for a pebble bed reactor to be built next door to me. So long as I get discounted power. Surely better than the whole world exploding from greenhouse warming (or whatever the latest doomsday scenario is).

    I guess the point is that somebody has to choose:
    – fossil fuels = greenhouse warming
    – hydro = destroyed rivers
    – wind/tidal = visual and noise pollution, poor base load performance
    – solar = marginal performance, poor base load performance
    – geothermal = good, but limited available sites?
    – nuclear = dispose of waste, people don’t like it, cooling towers create visual pollution
    – use less power = reduced economic growth and individual livelihood

    Conceptually using less power would be easiest, but I don’t see many people lining up to be poorer. Kind of like Al Gore doesn’t like global warming but personally generates more than his share. There is some low hanging fruit (insulating homes anybody? Double glazing anybody?) Other than that I’d rule that out as a long term option.

    Leaving the rest to choose from. Who chooses? Everyone should be obliged to state their preference before they are allowed to have an opinion on this thread – it’s too easy to say why one or another is no good, but you have to say which option is better than the option you don’t want.

    My personal choice is geothermal, followed by nuclear, failing that, then more hydro.

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  73. Peter S () says:

    Paul L,

    Thanks for helping return some sanity to the thread.

    Very good points.

    Geothermal, nuclear, hydro- my personal preference order too.

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  74. Redbaiter () says:

    Modern combustion techniques mean the use of fossil fuels does not contribute in any meaningful way to “greenhouse warming”. (Leaving aside the issue that the whole climate change argument is full of logic holes.)

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  75. Fred () says:

    Disposing of the weasel so early in the pm….what to do, what to do?…..

    Ok, an hour’s serious 4WD work with the newly turbo’d diesel….showing Gaia who’s boss is important.

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  76. llew () says:

    “no idea at all have you Llew?”

    Actually…

    http://www.aermotorwindmill.com/

    Windmills pump water. And generate electricity.

    I said it’d be cool if they did both. I’m no idiot though, please don’t judge the rest of us by your standard.

    Don’t you get tired of being an offensive ass?

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  77. cubit9f () says:

    Every time I fly into Wellington I am impressed by the huge uninhabited area around the very small Makara community. Surely the wind turbines could be sited in a way as to be not observable from the small village.

    If not then turn turn off the power to Makara. (And to all others who are so against pollution of all types.) That would just about solve the problem. 6% support the Greens therefor 6% saving. Oh what a stupid idea I hear some say. Yeah right, almost as dumb as most of the alternatives that are put forward that won’t work either.

    Something has to change. Straight out loud opposition to every suggestion is not going to solve anything. Like every other infrastructure project in this country the debate is interminable and really viable opportunities are missed.

    Lets have some vision and then some real leadership to make things happen. At present the perogative is to do things in such a way that no one is upset. Ain’t possible youcant please all of the people all of the time.

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  78. Redbaiter () says:

    Llew, your whole damn political philosophy is offensive, let alone almost every post you ever make here, but hell do you hear me whining like some pathetic little girl.. Offend me you PC dick.. do your worst.. I DON”T CARE..!!

    As for your web reference, it makes you look even dumber than your original remark did. You really hadn’t heard of windmills until this juncture?? Stunning. Look, I can’t be held responsible for the unending habit of leftists (like you Lllew) in making idiots of themselves here. What are more intelligent readers meant to do, keep silent regarding your idiocies??

    From the site you referenced-

    1. Can I generate electricity using an Aermotor windmill?

    No. Water and electricity don’t mix.

    Aermotor windmills are the most efficient, reliable, and economical way ever invented to lift ground water.

    However, they are not convertable to wind turbine (wind generator) applications.

    We don’t produce, nor do we maintain resources on this topic.

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  79. llew () says:

    “but hell do you hear me whining like some pathetic little girl.. ”

    Um. yes… you’re notorious for it.

    BTW. It’d still be cool. Can’t you read? (As in, what I said?)

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  80. llew () says:

    “Llew, your whole damn political philosophy is offensive”

    Ha ha – and what IS my offensive political philosophy?

    “let alone almost every post you ever make here”

    And that must be why so many people complain about my posts (here on this “right wing” blog) while no-one complains at all about yours.

    Oh hang on… what an idiot I must be.

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  81. Redbaiter () says:

    “you’re notorious for it”

    A lie, but that’s OK, I know that like most barbarians, you don’t have the slightest concept of self respect.

    “It’d still be cool”

    This is a discussion on windpower. Such inanities as “it would be cool if” (insert some foolish engineering/ economic impossibility) are completely worthless and pointless.

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  82. dad4justice () says:

    No llew the idiot sonic has gone to build a gun so it can try and obliterate me .

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  83. llew () says:

    “This is a discussion on windpower”

    I’m impressed that you noticed. My relevant question was how many would be needed to power one house?

    Not being on town water supply, it idly crossed my mind that a water pump would be useful too. And yes, I had read that water & electricity don’t mix before I published that link (quelle surprise!).

    but it’s a pity, now I need two windmills.

    But speaking of inanity, you’re the Master, I’ll refrain from it if you can. (Pretty safe bet I’d say).

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  84. llew () says:

    “No llew the idiot sonic has gone to build a gun so it can try and obliterate me ”

    Somehow this reminds me… Since we’re on windmills, where is Peter Quixote when we need him?

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  85. haggis () says:

    D4J says…”Attention calling all sonic friends please stand up from your fox holes and walk forward in support of your comrade in battle . ”

    Stick with the debate, D4J, you are getting past your use by date. Booooring.

    Must admit, not a fan of wind farms. Bad enough seeing power lines down the road,should be all underground.

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  86. dad4justice () says:

    Don’t tell me what to do huckster haggis .

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  87. Redbaiter () says:

    Llew, its simply a question of horsepower requirements, as anyone with an inkling of basic physical realities would understand. This is a requirement that clearly excludes leftists.

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  88. Andrew Bannister () says:

    llew, you might be interested in this.

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  89. sonic () says:

    do you hear me whining like some pathetic little girl.. Offend me you PC dick.. do your worst.. I DON”T CARE..!!

    Bwahh, mummy…

    Best Baiter comment ever, he really is on the ragged edge today.

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  90. haggis () says:

    I think redbaiter has caught the D4J disease.

    When he has nothing to say, he just hurtles abuse.

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  91. Redbaiter () says:

    Hell Sonic, you’re so lacking in integrity you can’t even stay gone when you say you’re going..

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  92. sonic () says:

    Oh look it’s an engineering impossiblity!

    http://www.absak.com/alternative-energy/hydro-power.html

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  93. sonic () says:

    Just couldn’t resist redbaiter, you really are being so amusing today.

    Have a kiss for being such a funny little fellow

    xxx

    S

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  94. dad4justice () says:

    Sonic then haggis huckster -where is Jenni as we could all have a threesome !!!

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  95. llew () says:

    “Llew, its simply a question of horsepower requirements.”

    Thanks. I may have to research the backyard versions.

    the water pumps too.

    You guys feel free to heap scorn on this next idea by all means… how come we’re not being encouraged by the government (and/or power companies) to install where possible, power generating equipment on our own properties for feeding back into the grid?

    I realise not everyone can do that practically, but what’s to stop a backyard hydro scheme if you have the water? Besides the RMA.

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  96. Redbaiter () says:

    Sonic your comprehension is so flawed you’re a complete waste of time. Nothing is impossible. The challenge is to make it economic, as I tried to highlight, but such refinements of logic are always pearls before swine where you are concerned..

    Bring it on if you must Haggis, I can out debate twenty leftists (at least) with half my brain tied behind my back.

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  97. Redbaiter () says:

    Sonic your comprehension is so flawed you’re a complete waste of time. Nothing is impossible. The challenge is to make it economic, as I tried to highlight, but such refinements of logic are always pearls before swine where you are concerned..

    Bring it on if you must Haggis, I can out debate twenty leftists (at least) with half my brain tied behind my back.

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  98. Fred () says:

    Hmmm….

    Windpower is a joke…it has no baseload application.
    If you don’t know what that means you don’t know why wind is no alternative.

    The truism around here is that your degree of recently acquired enthusiasm for wind power is directly proportional to your interest in the vaguely Green hottie on the pork bellies screen.

    Has Dave an interest we should know about?

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  99. dad4justice () says:

    Sonic and haggis huckster are both up Jenni and wind is blowing and energy levels are full steam ahead sir . Rear rank steady , forward march , by the right , quick march …..

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  100. llew () says:

    “Oh look it’s an engineering impossiblity”

    That’s not what I meant when I said “It’d be cool” but that does anser my question about home hydro… pity I don’t have a river.

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  101. sonic () says:

    ” can out debate twenty leftists (at least) with half my brain tied behind my back.”

    Like this?

    “do you hear me whining like some pathetic little girl.. Offend me you PC dick.. do your worst.. I DON”T CARE..!!

    Priceless.

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  102. Jenni () says:

    D4J,

    It’s only Monday and that’s all you have to say?

    Funny, this thread has good debate, but interjected with the paediatric words of D4J.

    I suppose it’s like good wine, you will always get a bottle that turns to vinegar.

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  103. Redbaiter () says:

    Sonic- whats your point with that web reference anyway? Its not news that water driven turbines can generate electricity. What relevance does that have to the idea of combing a wind generator with a water pump?? Please take some basic comprehension lessons and cease wasting bandwidth with mindless off topic inanities.

    Fred is right. Windpower has no baseload application. It’s uses are severely limited.

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  104. Fred () says:

    Hey Red….
    Weasels done and dusted.

    The dogs are still barking but the caravan’s moved on.

    To see the extent of the rout read the entire thread.

    I recently got Cooper ST 285/75s and recommend them as the ultimate road/mud 4×4 tyres.

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  105. sonic () says:

    “What relevance does that have to the idea of combing a wind generator with a water pump?”

    I’m assuming by “combing” you actually mean “combining”

    You have a windmill on the roof, a water pump in the water, there you go, your engineering impossiblilty achieved.

    Poor Redbaiter, still one apple short of a picnic!

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  106. dad4justice () says:

    Hi Jenni – great to see all the girls could turn up , 5 pm darling ?? oh yes nightshift , has sonic and haggis had enough . I do like nuclear power idea and I just know you love the idea to dear Jenni .
    Kind regards
    d4j

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  107. Redbaiter () says:

    Nope its your comprehension again you sad leftist dimbulb.. Llew’s idea was to have one unit doing both. Must be so hard for you to get by with such limited abilites Sonic. No wonder you need big government so badly. Sometimes I almost feel pity.

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  108. insider () says:

    Redbaiter said: “Modern combustion techniques mean the use of fossil fuels does not contribute in any meaningful way to “greenhouse warming”. (Leaving aside the issue that the whole climate change argument is full of logic holes.)”

    CO2 is a direct consequence of burning fossil fuels. In a complete combustion process if a hydrocarbon burns in oxygen, the reaction yields carbon dioxide, water and heat.

    Assuming CO2 from combustion is contributing to climate change in any form, your comment does not make sense, unless you are claiming these modern techniques are changing the laws of physics/chemistry.

    Perhaps you mean that engines are becoming more efficient and so producing less CO2 for the same output. Yes but while they may be using less fuel they are still producing the same amount of CO2 per fuel unit (if not more as the more complete or efficient the combustion the more CO2).

    That would be fine if demand for say transport kms was static or for fuel was static (ie no one wanted to go any further than now or any demand increase was done through efficiency gains). Unfortunately neither is true. Both demand levels are climbing and far outstripping the gains in efficiency, particularly in the developing world. Technology may be able to reduce absolute CO2 in developed countries as the efficiency potential may be able to outrun the much more modest expected demand growth.

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  109. Jenni () says:

    D4J,

    Find another web site for your seedy chat up lines.

    David, you actually going to allow this??

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  110. sonic () says:

    You can always tell when Fred et al have lost, it’s when they loudly proclaim victory! (which is their own sweet way of sayin “stop please I can’t take any more, I’m only a bear of little brain)

    See you all later.

    xx

    S

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  111. dad4justice () says:

    I know where I would like to put a pump sonic !!

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  112. haggis () says:

    Good to hear you like nuclear power, D4J.

    Perhaps you could get one of your goon mates to get you a job in charge of a power plant.

    Chenobyl here we come.

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  113. llew () says:

    “Llew’s idea was to have one unit doing both.”

    It’d be cool! So long as it was like, safe too. :)

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  114. Redbaiter () says:

    The percentage of CO2 entering the atmosphere that is generated by humans is statistically insignificant and always will be. Continually improving technology means even less so. To write off a major store of cheap energy on exaggerated premises and faulty logic is complete idiocy.

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  115. Jenni () says:

    Interesting that the govt was happy to forego the RMA when considering the waterfront stadium, but when it comes to harnessing natural energy, the RMA is an obstacle

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  116. Redbaiter () says:

    “You can always tell when Fred et al have lost,”

    You can always tell who the morons are. Who else but a chronic leftist would be so stupid and arrogant as to assume the role of umpire at the same time as they participate in the contest. In Sonic’s case, its like having Frank Tyson refereeing at the same time as he bites of his opponent’s ear.

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  117. dad4justice () says:

    Haggis huckster “Perhaps you could get one of your goon mates to get you a job in charge of a power plant.”

    Don’t you watch the Simpsons as Monty Burns is my dad and I am very proud lad ? so suck on that lady.

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  118. Redbaiter () says:

    “You can always tell when Fred et al have lost,”

    You can always tell who the morons are. Who else but a chronic leftist would be so stupid and arrogant as to assume the role of umpire at the same time as they participate in the contest. In Sonic’s case, its like having Mike Tyson refereeing at the same time as he bites of his opponent’s ear.

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  119. Fred () says:

    Nice to see the weasel is argumentless yet again.

    Tho more final appearances than Nellie Melba somewhat threatens its “credibility” (sic).

    Not a bad summary if I do say so myself…..

    “Run weasel run….
    address the ability to site away from everyone and totally earthquake proof….or scuttle off… you’ve been done sunshine.”

    A thought.
    This clown isn’t getting paid to be any sucker’s spin doctor…..is he?

    You’d think “Fair Trading” or NZ equivalent would take pity and counsel a career change before they prosecute … wouldn’t you?

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  120. insider () says:

    Red – that is whole other debate

    Llew – Do you really want to go back to washing by hand?

    wind turbines are fine in theory but like solar water etc they often don’t perform financially/technically. If you want one for home you are unlikely to get 240 volts for mains power so will have to rewire your house for 24v (not many qualified tradesmen either) and probably get rid of your old electrical equipment, or just use the power for niche application like hot water/water pumps which makes the economics worse.

    You then have to buy battery packs and inverters, which from a friend’s experiecen are not that reliable, plus a generator for back up or to provide 240v when you want to run the washing machine.

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  121. haggis () says:

    D4J says………..Don’t you watch the Simpsons as Monty Burns is my dad and I am very proud lad ?

    It all adds up.

    Really Homer is your Dad. It’s delusions of grandeur to think that Monty is Dad.

    You must be Bart. Lisa is the brainy one.

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  122. dad4justice () says:

    Huckster Haggis – I have traced my Burns blood lines back to Monty and I am written into his will . Bye bye dear huckster , ever thought about a extreme make over my dear ?

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  123. Jenni () says:

    So, why, Charlie could the govt talk about circumventing the RMA when discussing the waterfront stadium??

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  124. insider () says:

    The specific WRC issue is the potential deforestation tax which is possibly a current govt policy. Of course there is no such policy (yet?) so the story is really tilting at windmills…

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  125. Rod () says:

    Just put John Key and his party in front of the wind turbines and we will have enough hot air to power up the country for 40yrs.

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  126. Andrew Bannister () says:

    Insider, any idea if it is plausible to use wind energy to pump water to the business end of a hydro-dam (i.e. convert wind to hydro)?

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  127. haggis () says:

    It is sad that D4J has only got a kids cartoon to identify with.

    Perhaps he watches it each night to get ideas for his posts?

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  128. John Dalley () says:

    LLew. 4.46pm.
    Its not impossible to do both and you could with available technology currently in NZ generate power for a home/property.
    If you where generating excess power, you could backfeed into the national grid. I think this may be happening now, all be it on a very limited scale. Once the power generators or the Govt come up with a policy there would be no reason that excess power couldn’t be onsold.

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  129. Fred () says:

    Nice job Red

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  130. Nutbar Alert () says:

    Tears of laughter at RedDick, FredDick and Dick4Injustice as a tag-team. One can imagine them wallowing in their mutual misfortunes at becoming nuttier nutbars than you can shake a peanut at!

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  131. Redbaiter () says:

    Andrew, I’m even more astonished by your ignorance than usual. The Dutch have been doing that for decades.

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  132. Fred () says:

    Heeeeey Nutbar sweetie….

    How’s your NZ economy functioning on wind chime generated base load?

    A complete failure? Of course.
    Denial is horrible thing but you’re used to it.

    How’re we going to pay the taxes to pay the mendicants if nothing works except on sunny, windy days?

    I know….it can never compute, can it?

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  133. Redbaiter () says:

    He’s just another dull brained leftist attention seeker Fred.. nothing to add, nothing to challenge, no idea about anything… why else are they leftists??

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  134. Fred () says:

    Idiots craving my attention?

    Thanks for the insight Red.
    I shoulda guessed.

    All they want is some acknowlegement? Ok.
    But its hard dealing with the ultra dumb….call me “intolerant”….it was ever thus.

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  135. Andrew Bannister () says:

    Andrew, I’m even more astonished by your ignorance than usual. The Dutch have been doing that for decades.

    Redbaiter, as an alternative for power generation, not land reclaimation.

    ps, the Dutch have been using windmills for reclaimation since the 1600s.

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  136. Nutbar Alert () says:

    Hey RedDICK and FredDICKEST – what are YOUR contributions to this thread? Give us a 1-10 blowjob by blowjob – sorry but you’re both just blowing hot air – so we can see how you’ve added value to this thread.

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  137. Fred () says:

    Nutbar mateeeeey…sweetie.

    I’m waiting….

    Hoping that through the “tears of laughter” you have some sort of even half-wit response to the non-nuc and risible wind generated base load power supply for NZ?

    Nothing to say?

    Fuckwit.

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  138. Fred () says:

    Nutbar…..is that you weasel?

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  139. dad4justice () says:

    Nutbar well what can I say other than just melt away you wankerotaryengine type creature .Are you James Sleep the red whiz bang – not quite right in the head – my brain hurts – born on probation type thing ?

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  140. Fred () says:

    Nutbar has no response.

    I’m shattered.

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  141. David Farrar () says:

    Charlie – the Govt has refused to change the law to speed up consents many times.

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  142. Nutbar Alert () says:

    What’s that noise? Oh’s it’s D4J’s bat-thing going “boing!”

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  143. Ed Snack () says:

    Trying to talk through the static here, but John Dalley, there are in fact significant issues with the concept of many minor generators back-feeding power to the national grid. Although in theory possible, it is in practice very difficult to achieve. Multiple small generators lead to instability in grids, and certainly our current grid is not designed or constructed to cope.

    It is certainly possible to to design such a grid, but it may not be necessarily economically feasible to implement such, the control problems are tricky. This would be an issue that should be seriously looked at before suggesting allowing any significant back-feeding. Note that small amounts of back-feeding can be managed although in practice this contributes effectively nothing to power generating capacity.

    I see the medium term “best solution” for NZ to be some form of Nuclear, say 2-3 stations for base load, with hydro, geothermal, and even some wind where appropriate because wind works well in smallish doses with lots of Hydro. Perhaps one or two emergency combined cycle thermal for emergencies.

    World wide, as much as I am thoroughly convinced that the AGW hypothesis is grossly over sold, a major project to provide power via a controlled and safe network of breeder reactors (or Thorium based) is probably the most practical way to manage any issues. The major problem is basically religious, the anti-nuclear religion has a significant hold over the credulous and the power hungry, it might not be simple to implement sensible solutions.

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  144. err.. () says:

    I’m never going to get this whole “Wind farms are noisy, wind farms are ugly” stuff. I’ve lived near them in the UK – far less of a noise problem in that particular area than, say, big bore exhausts and the wankers who buy them. In all honesty, I have to think quite hard to even remember what the wind farm sounded like. It’s not loud.

    I don’t get “ugly” either. I mean, it’s certainly not a fucking patch on the ugly that a nuke or gas power station is, or the morass of pipes that is a geothermal station. As forms of energy generation go I’d argue that it’s one of the most attractive. If you accept that we need power and we’re going to have to accept some structures for power generation then I’d have to ask what’s more attractive!

    Strobe effect is another issue. That calls for some clever thoughts about location so that livable areas are located to the north and south of the wind farm, so that long shadows don’t get cast on populated areas. But that’s something you can solve.

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  145. towaka () says:

    Ed Snack,
    As far as I know if you get past the satanic implications of nuclear,it still does not stack up on economic grounds.

    But it does start making economic sense if you want to make nukes as you get your enriched uranium/plutonium as a waste product.

    Makes you wonder why the Aussies are talking about nuclear power with all there coal reserves doesn`t it…nothing to do with 200 million Muslims just north of them eh!

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  146. insider () says:

    Andrew Bannister

    In a word “no”. That is one of the suggestions for windfarms in high generation low demand times eg night and where there are concerns about power variability as pumping systems might not care as much about constant powerflows. I think the issue is pumping a large enough volume the height of a hydro dam to make it worthwhile. It might be cheaper to wait for rain.

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  147. PaulL () says:

    Once you make electricity out of it you can store it in many ways. Some of them are not particularly efficient, but they do store a significant proportion of the power.

    Pumping water up hill so you can turn a hydro plant is just storage of energy. So would electrolysing water into hydrogen (also useful if you had a hydrogen distribution network – which we don’t), or large capacitors (short term), or batteries (expensive and large) or huge flywheels or any of lots of other alternatives.

    Doesn’t really answer the question as to whether it is a useful addition to our power generation capacity. Sure geothermal has lots of pipes and the like – it doesn’t have to though. Likewise nuclear – as I understand it a pebble bed reactor doesn’t need a large cooling tower and therefore is nowhere near as visually polluting.

    Personally, I like hydro dams a lot, I like waterskiing so they suit me just fine. But more dams is unlikely to get approval – the area they impact is huge – whereas geothermal and nuclear impact much smaller areas.

    In Australia I would go for solar – lots of desert where it is always sunny. I wouldn’t go photovoltaic, rather some form of reflector arrays. NZs sunshine hours aren’t really sufficient to do the same.

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  148. PaulL () says:

    Sorry, not very clear there. Preview is my friend. Geothermal tend to look like big industrial plants, but I don’t think they have to. Effectively they drive off differential heat – most of the mess relates to cooling towers. If you could cool one with something else (seawater maybe, or river water, or use the excess heat to heat homes) then you would reduce that. And the rest of the pipes are above ground for convenience – they don’t have to be. It would effect the economics a bit – maintenance below ground is harder – but probably not too much so.

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  149. John Dalley () says:

    Ed Smack. Don’t disagree at this time but in time when we have a national grid that functions properly and with the expected advances in technology this would probably be a non-existant problem or at the very least minimised.

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  150. llew () says:

    Insider, John Dalley, Insider et al…

    thanks. Very interesting.

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  151. Andrew Bannister () says:

    I think the issue is pumping a large enough volume the height of a hydro dam to make it worthwhile.

    Yes, that is what I was wondering, volume. Cheers.

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  152. chris () says:

    I think the issue is pumping a large enough volume the height of a hydro dam to make it worthwhile.

    Off peak energy from another source is used to back feed the generator. The water pumped up the hill is used at peak time as a frequency control.
    BTW, an awful lot of knowitalls about today.

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  153. insider () says:

    Chris

    I’m not a mathematician or engineer but I suspect the maths are fairly basic if you have all the data. I’m not sure on my brief analysis if the benefits justify the costs.

    It takes a joule to elevate a kilo (1 litre of water) 10cm. So 10 J/kg/m and 1J is 1W.

    Now I am told about 500cumecs runs Manapouri and it generates about 700MW. So you are going to have to lift tens of thousands of tonnes of water every day about 150 metres to recycle it.

    So my maths shows 1 cumec = 1000 l. It takes 10kj to raise it 1m. That means about 1.5 MW to get it back to the top. Multiply that by 500 to match the outflow.

    Project Hayes is planned at 650MW and only if it is working at max, which would happen but wind gen is typically only 35% utilised. So that is an awful lot of wind farms working very hard to recapture water for just one dam. Like I said, it might be cheaper to wait for rain as if the wind is blowing you might be better using the wind power elsewhere. Even at night there is demand and it could substitute for gas or coal power, or even hydro in a lake level maximisation process.

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  154. pacman () says:

    I am an engineer and your maths is close even though your units are confused.

    It does not really matter so much about the power requirement (you would never get the whole lot back up the hill) but if you have a continuous 1.5 MW (in wind power) sending water up the hill then (taking into account inefficiencies) you have added say 1.3 MW capacity to the dam.

    The point is you recover 70%+ of the energy that you will put in.

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