National’s Youth Plan
January 29th, 2008 at 12:54 pm by David FarrarJohn Key has announced more details in his speech of National’s Youth Plan to get all young people in education, training or work – and to reduce youth crime. It includes:
- A universal education entitlement for all 16- and 17-year-olds which will include non-school courses at a polytechnic, wananga, or private training establishment. This is to target the 8,400 16 and 17 year olds not in work, education or training.
- Teenage parents will be able to do programmes incorporating childcare and parenting advice
- give the Youth Court instead of the Fanily Court the power to deal with 12- and 13-year-olds accused of serious offences such as aggravated robbery and home invasions..
- give the Youth Court the power to impose parenting orders (on parents of course), mentoring programmes (such as Project K) and drug & alcohol rehabilitation programmes (80% of youth offenders have drug or alcohol problems)
- Extend maximum residential sentences for serious crimes committed by youth from three to six months (Government has said will do also, but not yet implemented)
- Introduce a 12 month intensive “fresh start” programme which includes three months residential, building on the Limited Service Volunteers scheme whose numbers have reduced from, despite 70% going onto FT employment.
- Allow electronic monitoring through ankle braclets for youth criminals who do not comply with orders
There’s a lot of detailed references and citations in the notes accompanying the policy. The Principal Youth Court Judge, Andrew Becroft, is referenced as estimating there is a group of about 1,000 young persistent offenders. Key notes that for many the current youth justice system is working well, but he wants to tackle the really hard case, or in other words the “under-class”.
I like several things about this policy:
- It is not trying to pretend there is a silver bullet which will cure youth crime. It takes a serious approach acknowledging one has to make lots of changes to real make headway with those hard cases
- It uses a mixture in “stick” and “carrot”. It is rare for one to work without the other. Basically it is saying do as much as possible to help the at risk youth who can be helped, but also have more powers available to deal with the real hard-core.
- It’s a worthwhile investment. The cost is estimated at $100 million a year. That is a lot of money. But while there are many things I do not want my taxes spent on (giving money to people who earn $130,000 just because they have a few kids), I am very happy to have taxes spend on making sure no one under 18 is not in work, training or education. And if it can reduce the number and severity of youth criminal offending, that will have very real benefits down the track.
- It isn’t trying to reinvent the wheel, but seems to be based on a lot of consultation and research with groups working in this area. That does not mean it will be universally popular or praised, but does suggest the issues for and against a particular policy have been well considered.
So it’s a good forward looking policy, aiming to make NZ better. The election should be about a contest of policy primarily, so good to see National make a good first offering for the year.
No tag for this post.
January 29th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
It is something that we might even expect from a pricincipled centre-left party…
I don’t think there will be many in the ‘mainstream’ who do not support this policy – very safe, and well handled I might add. makes Key and National look all government-in-waiting-like. can’t wait to see Labour’s response…
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
can’t wait to see Labour’s response…
“More hollow promises from a vacuous man”
“Nothing to see here”
“He registered in an electorate he doesnt live in”
“Would you trust the man who ripped off Coldplay”
“He sniffed some vegetables once”
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Basically playing the man and not the ball, ya know standard Labour stuff..
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Sadly that is what I am expecting too Bevan. Off the cuff it looks like a good policy from National and shows some promise for what their other policies might be like. It’s good, foward thinking and sensible stuff that will benefit New Zealand.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
This is excellent policy from National. We also need at least 65 more cops in Manukau and zero tolerance of petty crime.
I remember my mum used to say that the devil makes work for idle hands. Keeping young people busy gives them self esteem (the real thing from achieving something) and makes them too tired to be out all night tagging and boozing, etc.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
According to the Herald Key is proposing Army boot camps
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10489350
Did you not get that memo David?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Key said: ‘Fresh Start Programmes are not going to be some sort of short-term camp run by a tyrannical sergeant-major, which attempts to scare kids straight.’
And yet the Herald are leading their coverage of his speech with a picture of exactly that.
What pathetic tabloid journalism.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Envision Monty Burns in a devious pose saying “Excellent”
That’s how I feel with this speech.
Things are on track!
****
Pathetic tabloid journalism indeed.
Another pathetic jibe by sonic. How about reading the actual press release and researching you own information for a change. You might not look like an idiot so often.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
This great policy will go a long way to reducing inter-generational benefit dependency.
I have worked for WINZ under both Labour and National and quite frankly long term and youth beneficiaries who do not want to work absolutely laugh at Labour’s policies. When I tried to put a long-termer into a job (under Labour) the response was “You can’t take away my dole, I don’t want to work and I don’t have to, its a Labour Government”.
Go John Key and National – you rock.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
She will have a response of course. Saying we are doing this or that, she will pinch one or two ideas and she will find some ideological attack like “vouchers” which is another way of giving customers choice in important services instead of the Trade Union dominated monopoly.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I liked this line
“Why is one in five Kiwi kids leaving school with grossly inadequate literacy and numeracy skills?”
Collective nouns can be troublesome but shouldn;t that be “Why ARE one in five…” ?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
I’m sorry for mentioning how the press were reporting John Keys speech there Jeff.
Stuff is also running with boot camps
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4379341a10.html
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
No doubt you will be pointing out their error to them then Sonic…?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Sonic.
Having been through “Boot Camp” in the NZ military, I can honestly say that it was one of the most formative periods in my life.
To be constantly challenged to grow as a person, constantly directed to achieve standards and goals, learning to live work and function as a team in a spirit of camaradirie I have never experieneced elsewhere, in a rigid and disciplined environment where priviledge is EARNED, not given as of right, is an experience many of our lost youth could benefit from.
I had the pleasure of attending my intake reunion last year. One individual, who was a bit rough around the edges and perhaps not as disciplined as he could have been (having smacked me over for a percieved indiscretion) took these lessons on board and is now a school principal.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Jeff: Well. what would you expect from a Gay journalist? Accuracy, responsibility, balance? Don’t be stupid.
Catwoman: That quote should be framed and published on billboards thoughout the land.
““You can’t take away my dole, I don’t want to work and I don’t have to, its a Labour Government”.”
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
If you want to propose compulsory military service go for it slightlyrightie.
Just pointing out that Mr Farrar’s spin on this speech is rather different from other sources.
Of course we should probably wait until the actual speech is delivered!
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
“Why is one in five Kiwi kids leaving school with grossly inadequate literacy and numeracy skills?”
Collective nouns can be troublesome but shouldn;t that be “Why ARE one in five…” ?
Damned troublesome! Perhaps this may help. “Why is one (kid) in five….”
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
“what would you expect from a Gay journalist?”
Hello Bigots, you bus is leaving from platform 1!
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
All the media are running the “boot camps” line (Newstalk ZB, Herald, Stuff, Radio NZ). And of course they were meant to.
Basic media management: the speech has a hook, and that’s the instant story. The substance and detail are examined later, after the headlines have been made (and the non-readers’ votes have been gained).
I’m sure Key’s people knew what they were doing: don’t blame the media for taking the bait.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Gerry I agree – he’s talking about a group of five kids, one of whom (or which..?) is…
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Boot camp is a great idea, sonic. Actually it is already an option of choice for some WINZ Case Managers for our most recalcitrant of young job-avoiders, and that’s happening now under Labour. So what do you think of boot camp now?
Vote:Oh, I get it. It’s a good idea now, all of a sudden, as it has already been introduced under Labour?
January 29th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Aside from the fact you seem to insinuate that boot camps are a bad thing, which they are not, that’s not what he proposed at all. Read the press release and you will see that what he proposes will be in conjunction with Army based initiatives.
This is the first time in a great while that someone is actually talking about our nations problems and then backing themselves with tools to deliver some results.
Sonic im sure you would agree the MSM are far from the best source of information. The herald is constructed so 12yr olds can read it. Not exactly shooting for the sky in terms of balanced reporting and i say that they are guilty of inconsistencies/fallacies when it comes to reporting all sides of the political spectrum.
It’s a shame so many people speak/type before engaging in any meaningful thought and research. All too often trait for commenter’s on this blog.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Follow the links sonic. the full speech is in the first line.
“I want to make one thing clear, however. Fresh Start Programmes are not going to be some sort of short-term camp run by a tyrannical sergeant-major, which attempts to scare kids straight. What I’m talking about is a much more modern approach that tackles the underlying causes of criminal offending. I want to take the effective elements of army-type training and combine them with the most advanced expertise in youth offending and rehabilitation that New Zealand has to offer.”
Apparantly Labour are already running some form of boot camps called LSV.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Adolf I agree with sonic, but that was a pathetic comment.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Email sent to Edward Gay (author of above article):
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Apologies – I agree with Sonic, that was a pathetic comment.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I’m sure Key’s people knew what they were doing: don’t blame the media for taking the bait.
Really, so we can look forward to the media headlining stories about various parties’ policies on mental health funding with inflamatory (but musically vernacular) terms like ‘loony bin’, nuthouse’ and (my favourite) ‘funny farm’?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Thanks Seamonkey – tried to find the idiot’s email address everywhere on the Herald site.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I like it – pragmatic and principled.
So far, the nature of National’s new policy has been relatively pragmatic. Like the breakfast in school’s policy introduced alongside the ‘underclass’ speech, this speech puts forward solutions – carrots AND sticks – to a tangible problem, without falling to any ideological passion. That passion too often characterises Law & Order – getting tough on criminals, tougher sentencing, life means life etc. etc. Sounds good, but too simple. Here, National is providing for the constituency’s needs with smart, intelligent and hopefully effective solutions.
It’ll be hard for Labour to characterise this policy in the way it’d like to.
It frustrates me that Labour attempts to pre-emptively demonise certain subjects – voucher funding in education, aspects of privatisation and the like – before there can be any decent discussion. That was the case late last year when National suggested using the private sector in the construction of new schools. Too quickly, before any decent discussiong, Labour demonises everything as a return to the 90s.
I don’t think this policy will fall to that. Well done John Key.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I support the gist of the measures outlined. I have reservations about using the armed forces in the role of social services. Their task is to provide the country’s exterior security in an antisocial way–by the efficient use of bearing arms. It has become the fashion to reduce them to peace keeping–doing hakas, hanging wallpaper in failed states, countering the so-called threat of illegal fishing or airlifting politicians to foreign lunches. Adding ‘straightening out’ the nation’s illiterate, bastard offspring is a burden that should not be placed on them. The armed forces of today are required to be superior in every way. The US Marine Corps is now requiring high school graduates as their basic building block for a grunt. It is doubtful NCEA graduates would meet this requirement. Having the nation’s workforce dumbed down by the Labour education curriculum is bad enough. Dumbing down the Army would be tragic.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Sonic im sure you would agree the MSM are far from the best source of information. The herald is constructed so 12yr olds can read it.
I find it hilarious how the left lambast The Herald as biased in favour of National, especially since the whole EFB saga, then use it as a source for their arguements. Delicious irony…..
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
`what would you expect from a gay journalist’
Nice play on words Adolf – looks like you sucked Sonic and Julian in. Obviously they haven’t seen the journalists suname is Gay.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Used it as a source of my argument Bevan?
Hmm, well I’ll leave it to any fair minded reader to make up their own mind if saying “look what the Herald is reporting” is the same as agreeing with it.
Poor Bevan, still not the sharpest knife in the box.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
There’s some ambiguity in this that makes me wonder. Or then again, perhaps I’m paranoid after years of empty promises from both sides.
For instance, does the promise that undertaking trade training “won’t come with a cost penalty” mean that National will fund a 16 or 17 year old to undertake such training? Then what about the young person who struggles to do their best in high school, causing no one any grief along the way, but then accepts at 18 that a trade career is the best option? Will they stump up the $4000 Key refers to while someone a year younger works beside them having had their fees paid?
Or is this finally an acceptance from a politial party that a broad range of educational opportunities should be available to all young people without cost?
And while the parenting orders scheme is excellent, the penalties mentioned are imposed solely for non-attendance. I can foresee an endless cycle of the same faces appearing regularly for their “parenting lessons”, going home and failing to apply what they’ve learned, and re-starting the cycle. Will there be a regime in place to deal with those parents who, given the skills to “address problems at home that may be contributing to their child’s offending”, do nothing?
All in all though an excellent re-think of a perennial problem, with some innovative and potentially effective solutions. But clearly there are some important detail issues to be considered (or perhaps they have been, and just not explained).
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Of course I saw that his surname is ‘Gay’.
How is what he said a ‘nice play on words’?
It was childish and idiotic.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Key – you bugger, you bloody bugger. Dont you know you are not supposed to come up with good ideas like this.
If you keep this up you ruin us !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
As all the media are focusing on “boot camps”, then if that is not what National intended, there’s been an almighty cock-up.
I suspect there hasn’t been.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
The Herald website has a link, beside their coverage of the speech, to a PDF version of the speech. May the staff at the Herald should have followed that link before writing their headlines.
Good speech and like DPF I like the choices , or as David says “carrot and stick”, instead of the Nanny State working out what is good for you you can make some choices with the consequences of the different action spelt out.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Re Edward Gay’s story- journalists in NZ are just another division of the Labour party. (the Propaganda Division) All they’ll ever print in response to any National Party policy announcement is the Labour party spin.
YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS BY NOW.
National should know this by know. Its a fact they need to strategise and plan for.
Here’s some “free” advice National, and surely you must already know it. Whenever you make a policy statement, leftists/ labourites posing as journalists will do their best to misrepresent that policy.
What you need to do is before you issue any release, get someone to play devils advocate and run over that release from the perspective of the leftist media. Their behaviour is entirely predictable. Therefore you should be able to issue press releases that counter the cynical and partisan analysis they will receive from the mainstream media. If you can’t do that, then, like the Labour party advocates that insult our intelligence by calling themselves journalists, you’re not doing your job effectively.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Used it as a source of my argument Bevan?
Hmm, well I’ll leave it to any fair minded reader to make up their own mind if saying “look what the Herald is reporting” is the same as agreeing with it.
Poor Bevan, still not the sharpest knife in the box.
Looks like you just realised your error sonic, you always resort to personnal attacks when you realise you’ve stuffed up.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Julian – perhaps you, Adolf and Sonic know things about his sexual preferences that I don’t. But if you don’t know and he is heterosexual it was a nice play on words.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=131393
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Bevan, keep up this line of argument if you wish to look like even more of a fool than usual.
PDM, I’ve no insider knowledge, but anyone with even a passing knowledge of our Adolf’s views on gay people will have no difficulty parsing just what he means.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Generally very good. Sonic can only bitch about boot camps so must have some decent merit. I just hope that this is not going to be a “army can handle it” type carry on. The Army, and military generally, are already stretched in terms of personnel (retention) and equipment (either too much – LAVs or too little – LAV armour for eg) and they are not a social service centre. Carrot and stick is good, lowering the youth court age is good, electronic monitoring fine (although only works if you can get a vodafone signal), fresh start good (but intensive, costly and potentially frustrating).
Response will be interesting. Especially Clark’s first ever January state of the nation tomorrow.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
pdm – it was a stupid homophobic joke. What if his surname was Black? Still funny? Choose your prejudice.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Bevan, keep up this line of argument if you wish to look like even more of a fool than usual.
Quick glance of the comments seems there is only one person here who doesnt think you’re the foold sonic, besdies yourself of course.
Another personnal attck huh? Next you’ll be blowing me kisses….
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Apart from the boot camps GPT1, it’s all pretty anodyne (which is why thats the bit the press has picked up)
I’ll await what the experts in the field say, youth crime is not an area of my expertise.
I’m a bit concerned about lowering the age of criminal responsibilty to 12 (which is what the proposal seems to add up to) but again I’ll wait and follow the discussion.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
pdm – it was a stupid homophobic joke. What if his surname was Black? Still funny? Choose your prejudice.
Julian, Im sure the offending commenter has been reprimanded enough, and if more is required then the moderators or the blog owner will say so.
Don’t lets sidetrack the blog now into a discussion about a comment that was made in bad taste.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Fair enough Bevan. Cheers.
It is a shame the media coverage has focused on the ‘boot camp’ aspect. It will be interesting to hear youth crime experts’ views on the solutions themselves.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
The reply back from Mr. Gay:
Not much else he could do really.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
I’m a bit concerned about lowering the age of criminal responsibilty to 12 (which is what the proposal seems to add up to) but again I’ll wait and follow the discussion.
give the Youth Court instead of the Fanily Court the power to deal with 12- and 13-year-olds accused of serious offences such as aggravated robbery and home invasions..
Selective quoting is very misleading sonic, tut tut.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
I did not actually quote anyone in that post Bevan.
Not having a good day are we?
(oh and as requested)
xxx
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
“youth crime is not an area of my expertise.”
Thanks for the frank admission of ignorance. That’s all readers will see from you on this issue to day one would expect.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
It is a shame the media coverage has focused on the ‘boot camp’ aspect.
All depends, the softy namby pamby hard core lefties will be totally against it, the hardcore right wing nutters would prefer the electric chair instead. The average citizen on the street may very well think the little shits deserve a good clip round the ears and a good dose of boot camp would be good for them.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
“Not much else he could do really.”
One has to give him credit for responding tho, and apparently quite sincerely.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Surely having the boot camps headline plays into National’s hands, Redbaiter. It will appeal to those NZ1st and United Future voters who think that all that these kids need is some discipline, while others will look past the headlines to the actual policy. It makes National look bad to hardcore Labour supporters, but they’re never going to vote National anyway.
Continue to drain off the vote from the minor parties and shore up the hinterland conservative votes — who in National wouldn’t want a ‘boot camp’ headline to go along with their really rather centrist policy?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
We’ll see how it plays Bevan. On the one hand it might play well to the discontented hard right and talkback. On the other it slightly contradicts the “Caring Conservative” image Key is relying on to win the middle ground.
Seems to me to be a bit of a kneejerk reaction,.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
I did not actually quote anyone in that post Bevan.
Not having a good day are we?
You said you had a problem with lowering the age, but left out the qualifier which was for serious offences. You were deliberately trying to mislead. Don’t be offended sonic, its your modus operandi and its not your fault you don’t have any other methods of getting the debate to swing in your favour.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
GK,
I’d agree with you re the military and its suitability as a youth-correctional facility.
Key did also, however, mention the use of communiy organisations – organisations that have huge experience and tremendous value to offer. Government needs to understand that is not always the solution. Furthermore, the use of organisations such as Project K and the like, encourage further community – community that it no way is nututred by WINZ or the like.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Bevan, you used the words “selective quotes” not me.
lets get back to the substantive if thats ok, you are interesting to read when you stick to the point rather than nitpicking.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I just read the whole speech. It was great.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I think the speech is far more interesting for its indication about what the attack lines are going to be for the year, rather than worrying about detail boot camps.
sqandered chances, wasted nine years, too little too late, smug out of touch ministers, interfering HC, Key decisive decision making
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Ive seen comments from stupid po faced pricks in the past but sonic’s last effort beats the band.
“…but anyone with even a passing knowledge of our Adolf’s views on gay people will have no difficulty parsing just what he means.”
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
You got it insider, as long as he can keep it up without any Brashisms…
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
R.Nz/GK
Key said the army “may work” with specialist proividers. I read that as they would not be the primary provider may have facilities and some staff they can lend, eg quarters, playing fields, gyms, confidence courses and PT staff.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
PDFs of the speech and all supporting documentation are available on the National website and John’s website.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
John Armstrong reckons the Key speech hit the bulls eye:
=
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10489387
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Sonic,
I’m not sure it’s too much of a ‘knee jerk’. Essentially, he’s saying that all young people of school age, under 18, should have free access to education – be that at school or in training for a trade. I think that’s very sensible, giving youth more options to pursue than they have at present. Many would be far better off training towards a career than they are sitting through school, disturbing others and essentially wasting the government’s money, when they could be training towards a career.
I’m supportive of the idea that in return for the state’s support, in the form of benefits or the like, there is an obligation to demonstrate in return, a willingness to get ahead. Harsh and punitive? Given that the tools and incentives to get ahead are very much there, I don’t think so.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Rex –
Vote:the 18 year old you refer to having to pay course costs could have gone to the Southern Institute of Technology Chch campus and got a trade qual under the zero fees scheme – but of course Pete Hodgson wiped that campus out, didn’t he? Labour give arseholes a bad name.
January 29th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Thanks for that Lindsay, I wonder how many Kiwiblog readers will be dismissing that as “main stream media commie propaganda”?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Bevan, you used the words “selective quotes” not me.
Poor choice of word I admit, but hey I’ve never claimed to be a walking thesaurus..
lets get back to the substantive if thats ok, you are interesting to read when you stick to the point rather than nitpicking.
Much like you are, except when you pick half of the point and debate that.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
I also think this is a good start to the problem by KEY but I also think that there is nothing amiss in having a tyrannical Sgt Major in charge of the Fresh Start programme indeed that is exactly the type of person to turn the kids around….I think they should do away with Youth Courts altogether for serious offenders and stop the counter productive practice of suppressing everything.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
“all young people of school age, under 18, should have free access to education ”
How is that different from now is the question R.NZ. My understanding is that this is aleady the case.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Red, your “advice to National” comment is absolutely correct. Great insight.
Too often politicians hire party lackeys as advisors. Suffused with belief in what “their” party is doing, they look uncritically at every utterance and hail every policy as the ultimate panacea. Then when it’s released and gets ripped to shreds (fairly or unfairly) they’re angered and upset, but seemingly learn nothing.
I always advise my clients to try to hire at least one staffer opposed to most of their positions. And since I don’t trust anyone, I always manage to shoot holes in their draft speeches and policies.
As a result, when they’re released they’re as bullet proof as it’s possible to get, allowing for the determination of some sections of the media to pillory those with whom it’s fashionable to disagree.
I hope National take your advice to heart in the coming months.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Sonic,
It is indeed the case, to secondary school education. As far I understand, young people under 18 wanting to enter training in polytechs or other teritary institutions, do not have that access. John Key’s saying they should, and I agree.
Towards the ages of 16, 17, 18, secondary school is not for everyone. That said, the firm academic grounding given at secondary school – in literacy, numeracy etc. is absolutely crucial. I’m not advocating polytech at age 13.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Good speech and positive, practical policy. Incumbency means that HC will struggle to match this – anything she says will be too little, too late.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
sonic , you have posted 12 times , are you on a liarbor work scheme that pays you for the number of posts you make , must be shift change soon sonic. james sleeps turn.
Vote:Love Mr Key thoughts, this is what you expect from a working man, getting the youth working, and away from crime, not like the idle liarbor,that has turned crime into a MAJOR growth industry.
January 29th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Free education under Labour.
Dont make me laugh sonic – we all know Labour has been running down spending on actual education to stack the MoE with more and more policy position for their lefty mates who don’t do anything but probably post on Kiwiblog all day as they have nothing to do for thier $100 K a year.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Sure, Key’s prescription is exactly how you get through to young people, who are already alienated from the rest of society.
I guess its possible that a few individuals might buck up at a military-style camp and knuckle down, but to the most alienated citizens, they already exist in this type of brutal environment everyday, often whether they are in jail or not?
Key wants to give our worst youth offenders military-style training? Does that include training with weapons? How can the public feel safe when the government or business would be training up these people who have little regard for society, so that they can wreck an even more deadly and efficient kind of wrath?
To make people want to re-join decent society, we need to show them the benefits rather than the consequences. Deterrence simply doesn’t work – does a robber really think of how many months/years he/she will spend in jail when robbing the local for their next fix?
This policy also risks alienating otherwise good youth, who simply drop out because school does not suit them. Why should teachers be required to put up with those who don’t want to be there, and often prevent others from learning by acting up. Mr. Key also needs wake up, the government already has a great strategy with school dropouts by moving them into modern apprenticeships.
Labour needs to come out swinging, and say what this could really mean for New Zealand. It’s not a solution, its simply moving the violence to a higher playing field.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
The LSV scheme can turn lives around. I have seen it with my own eyes. I suppose a training camp in the Ureweras is more to Helen Clark’s taste.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
“we all know Labour has been running down spending on actual education”
Do we all know that?
Got any figures to back that up?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
video of the speech on the herald website:
Vote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/multimedia/video.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10489350&content_media_id=4956072
January 29th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
and already 16 pages of reader reaction
Vote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501154&objectid=10489351&pnum=0
January 29th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
ah, sorry, those pages also include reaction to an earlier story
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
or, maybe not …
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
PP, you just based your argument on this line: “worst youth offenders military-style training? Does that include training with weapons?”
Did JK say anything about weapons?
Try to cut the scaremongering out and talk about the issues before us rather than making up fiction to support your (paranoid?) delusions.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Brownie, a big part of training for the army involves weapons, as well as fitness training, unarmed combat, climbing over obstacles and moving undetected at night,
We are going to get some super-well trained young criminals out of this policy thats for sure.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
I’m impressed with this speech, more so than I though I would be.
Like the insider, I am most interested in the rather probing, and very valid questions Key is preparing to drill down into the Labour party with. They are potent and in my opinion get to the heart of the substantial problems NZ is facing under the appalling stewardship of Labour.
I’ve often (and still do) view Labour as eerily similar to the failed Enron corporation. Like Enron, they are obsessed with winning over the media which drive them to do things that look good, rather than address long term problems.
Also like Enron, problems eventually get so big that there is just no amount of paper that can cover them and Labour, bound by its ideology simply shrugs its shoulders and averts it gaze (eg Cullens reaction to people leaving for Aus).
Go Key! How pleasant to see some responsibility and a demand for accountability coming back in.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
sonic
as pointed out earlier, Key said the army may be used by some organisations but not as the lead providers.
PS Cubs and Scouts provide weapons training too. Some of them turn out bad (not including the leaders!)
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Forgot to add that PE is a core part of the national secondary curriculum so are they considered equally culpable
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
PP refers to military style training and use of weapons as does Sonic who stretches it to `super well trained criminals’ from this policy.
I don’t recall too much of that when we had compulsory military training years ago. In fact it reformed a large number of `petty’ criminals.
A bit of enforced discipline does wonders for people heading towards a life of crime.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
pdm surely you realise that Sonic and PP live in parallel universe totally detached from reality, unlike myself and and no doubt you they do not have to face the realities of life in NZ today. Trying to suggest key is advocating weapons training is really stretching it, especially as he was clear that what he is saying is that those who quality will receive appropriate training, he specifically said any army involvement will be as part of a properly designed programme. However, Sonic and PP are no doubt flogging the bs spun from the shrinking confines of Helengrad.
In any event the cost can be paid for by eliminatinge waste and duplication from the far too many agencies, boards and officials clogging the arteries of the economy. For example since when does a population of 4+ million require 22 health boards, none of whom can take a significant decision without the Ministry saying Yay or Nay.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Sonic 14 posts now get away from the sexy sheep and the gay left , close down and have a latte , ,i will be paying tax to acc for your limp wrist from posting , 14 posts ,um you must get out of that little booth more,and discover sunshine and Mr Key
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
The underclass? Does he mean the one that National created in the 1990s with its Employment Contract Act (studies have shown that centralised collective bargaining, as existed prior to 1991 mitigates the tendency of remuneration levels in the labor market to become increasingly polarised – (see labor market segmentation theory).
And then there was the benefit cuts. Short story – National calculated the minimum amount of money required to live, with a nutritionally adequate diet, then slashed it by 30%. That’s how they decided what the unemployment benefit should be in 1991.
So what’s National’s answer to this problem. Punish the kids that have grown up in the social conditions that were created by their Tory forebears. Wonderful.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
“I want to take the effective elements of army-type training and combine them with the most advanced expertise in youth offending and rehabilitation that New Zealand has to offer.”
There it is Sonic – what he actually said – not the drivel you are spouting about weapons etc. I hope you are not being paid for what you contribute here – if so then you are a waste of money.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
“Does he mean the one that National created in the 1990s with its Employment Contract Act…”
No Gnome, I think he means the one that perpetuated under the Labour Govt for the last 8+ years. (and their failure, initially, to admit there is even one).
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
PP, are you naive or just selective?
“Boot camp” as it has been termed is not about Military training, it is about regimenting lifestyle. Getting up to do drills, assault course’s, learning to respect authority and the consequences when this is not done.
I did 3 weeks of voluntary training when i was 16 at Lynton army base. While we watched live fire exercise we were not allowed to fire weapons ourselves.
Our army isn’t all about killing. There are trades in the army, construction, engineering, medical, logistics as well as the armoured and infantry divisions (these are for enlisted men).
People that spout on, and are negative about, “boot camps” having never attended one in their life, need to get real and see the true benefits to troubled youths.
You say this will alienate the good youth, did you even read the policy outlay? He clearly states this isn’t targeting the kids that muck about once or twice. This is about the bad ass mo’s that hunt in packs.
If Key needs to wake up then Clark needs resuscitation because those apprenticeship schemes you talk of are not stopping the bashings of innocent people or the 25000 youth with no job or educational training, or the 13000 teenagers on the benefit.
PP if your so scared of Keys vision what do you suggest to arrest the rate of youth offending and laziness that is permeating thought NZ
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
“No Gnome, I think he means the one that perpetuated under the Labour Govt for the last 8+ years.”
SMM. A few quotes should do the job.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
And the link of course..
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0508/S00574.htm
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Policy Parrot: “Key wants to give our worst youth offenders military-style training? Does that include training with weapons? How can the public feel safe when the government or business would be training up these people who have little regard for society, so that they can wreck an even more deadly and efficient kind of wrath?”
Have you read the speech? Do you have any knowledge of the LSV scheme? It’s not ‘military-style training’; it’s training in a military-style environment – a subtle but important difference.
IMHO, as a former soldier and instructor at LSV COY, this is one of the few things the government got right. How many of you knew that the current OC of LSV COY (Major Cate Linton) was a unemployed, indifferent 17 year old who undertook the LSV course?
This is taken from the Army’s website:
“The LSV Scheme, in its current form, has been running since 1993 and trainees wear military uniform and operate within the structure of Section, Platoon and Company. Trainees are subject to tight behavioural boundaries and to military law throughout the six week residential course. Five intakes of about 100 trainees descend on the camp each year.”
No weapons training has ever been given, nor would be given.
Also, no one, least of all John Key, is advocating that the army takes on the Youth Courts to hard to handle cases. Mid last year I attended a conference in P/N where there were seven (7) presenters from various groups who dealt with at risk youth in the Horowhenua/Manawatu areas. There was one guy who took between 30 to 35 male youths annually through a “boot camp” in the tararua’s, but after a decade of successfully turning around kids with all manner of problems he was going to have to close his courses down because of lack of funding…how much did he need? $100,000 a year. Mere chump change to a government, but as of the conference date, he hadn’t secured the funding.
This new policy will go a long way to addressing that sort of problem.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Have you ever seen one of the courses that Burnham runs, Sonic?
You wouldn’t comment like that if you knew. It is not Basic training – It is especially tailored for kids.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
“And then there was the benefit cuts. Short story – National calculated the minimum amount of money required to live, with a nutritionally adequate diet, then slashed it by 30%.”
RN, if you’re going to throw numbers about, at least get them right. Benefits were cut by an average of 20%…
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
SMM, some other NZ child poverty statistics that will impress you know doubt.
In 1986 just 11% of children lived in in low-income households (60 percent of average household expenditure threshold). After National had been in power just 4 years that figure had increased to be 35%. Of course Labour brought this figure down considerably, and in 2004 it sat at 23% (I’m sure it’s much lower now as well, since working for families has been introduced).
You can find all that information here (just download the PDF on the left hand side of the screen):
http://www.socialreport.msd.govt.nz/economic-standard-living/index.html
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
My brother could not get on at school, left joined the army got a trade, came out in his 20s, built up a business using his Army training, sold it retired at 48.
If he had not been able to join the Army he would have drifted and possibly got in with a bad lot
Key
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
I have no children. I work. I pay taxes. WFF means I pay taxes to support people with children who earn more than I do. That is unfair and discriminatory.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Roger Nome are you Annette King?
What you wrote above seems to be the same as her response. It is so absurd it even made Barry Spoper laugh.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
oops – Soper.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Get a grip Nome.
You and all the fools that compare life and political parties from over 20 or even 10 years ago need to realise we don’t have Georgie Pie anymore, the post office doesn’t own telecom, and we don’t have a world cup to our name.
This is not 1984 and National of today cannot be blamed for the failures of a past government. Labour have been in charge coming into its 9th year now, time to take some responsiblity here mate.
Anyway this argument isn’t about poverty, though that’s a factor, it’s about youth crime.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
So Key’s proposing things that are already happening, with a few additions that don’t work.
Check Scoop’s front page for the responses.
- Apparently there’s already a scheme run through schools for kids who want to do trades. It’s a proven success, and provides more support that Key’s proposal. Is Key thinking of calling the initiative “train for the dole”?
- Boot camps have been tried in all manner of forms all over the world. They didn’t work here in the eighties and nineties and they didn’t work in the US, UK or Oz. Key proposes using LSV – pity he didn’t ask defence first: They think it’s a terrible idea and don’t think they have the ability or the resources. He also talks about Project K – which started off focusing on troubled kids, but moved away from that group when it realised it was a hard thing to do.
- The idea of parenting classes sounds interesting, but significantly more “nanny state” than a ban on smacking. Cognitive dissonance is a fine thing.
All the rest seem to be existent initiatives, or part of Government policy other than the use of electronic monitoring (which appears to be the only fresh idea in the speech).
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
“Labour have been in charge coming into its 9th year now, time to take some responsiblity here mate.”
The child poverty rate continues to drop under Labour – that’s real responsibility.
“Anyway this argument isn’t about poverty, though that’s a factor, it’s about youth crime.”
Yes of course it’s a huge factor. Why do you think violent crime doubled under National at the same time youth poverty more than doubled? Just a coincidence hey?
http://kiwiblogblog.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/nationals-criminally-insane/
No it’s a poverty issue, one which National is set to deepen. It will then punish the victims of its policies with boot camp, and have a chuckle about it over a pinot gris at the local country club. Don’t you just love National?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Yeah, Labour’s done a lot to offset poverty, eh? like fuck.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
like fuck they have, I meant.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Nome – the child poverty rate is a mathematical anomaly – straight out of “how to lie with statistics”. It is a definition of the number of people earning less than a percentage of the median income. It says nothing about actual income levels.
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Spam – I don’t want to have the relative vs absolute poverty debate again. If you don’t know why relative income matters when it comes to crime you might want to look here.
http://rogernome.blogspot.com/2007/11/link-between-imprisonment-rates-and.html
And here:
http://tinyurl.com/346e2s
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
adam smith ,you might have a stuffed heart, I PAY FOR YOUR YOUNG TICKER MATE by taxes,(its called a community)
:0
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Mr Farrar two topics so alike,possible new thread, we should discuss Death and murder or assults , rapes ,stabbing bashings kidnapping , you know real life in our lovely country, opps its your blogg SORRY,just a thought,ITS REAL LIFE
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Boot Camp.
Vote:Now I want to go to one of these. Disapline is only in daytime “training” huh?
Therefore in my time I want:
My cellphone for texting.
I want my iPod.
I want my Playstation.
I want my X-Box.
I want free Internet coz my daytime Internet will be disrupted.
I want my car to cruise at night.
I want my fines written off, seeing as I won’t be able to work.
I want my girlfriend to visit.
I want …….
January 29th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Ahhhh, social engineering. I thought that was the problem?
Vote:January 29th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
I think the Government might just be more concerned about how to keep this ‘youth’s’ ear from giving it a royal kick in the cobblers on Feb 12.
Vote:http://www.stuff.co.nz/4379352a11.html
January 29th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
“the effective elements of army-type training”
Fitness, avoiding detection by hostile forces, hand to hand combat?
Vote National. the party that will make our youth criminals the fittest and best trained in the world!
Vote:January 30th, 2008 at 12:21 am
“Fitness, avoiding detection by hostile forces, hand to hand combat?”
Sonic, you’re just as bad as the rest – this is a standard day on an LSV course – up at 0600, shower, shit, shave, dress, clean room (along with the other three that you share the room with), room inspection, morning parade, breakfast, collect class materials from barracks, classes on budgeting, impromptu speaking (and myrid other topics during the six weeks), lunch, drill, PT, afternoon parade, dinner, evening parade, night classes and then lights out at 2200.
Nothing about weapons, demolitions, hand-to-hand combat, knife fighting or any other activity that you and your (un)constructive criticisms seem so obsessed by. LSV and similar programmes are all about routine, discipline, structure, respect for authority, self-respect and motivation.
You lefties are so fucked up in your world-view its no wonder that Key’s new policy is like an anathema to you and can’t have the good grace to acknowledge good policy when you see it.
Vote:January 30th, 2008 at 1:34 am
Hi all,
With all this talk about violent crime could I just recommend forming a Neighbourhood Support (Neighbourhood Watch) group. It can be a lot of fun, you get to meet your neighbours and very helpful community constables, and reassure the more frightened people around that there are things that can be done and there is someone there for them. This is particular useful for people of other ethnicities in your area to encourage them to call the police rather than put up with intimidation or bullying.
I am chairperson of Auckland Neighbourhood support and we are particularly keen to get more groups going including dairies and other shops. We are also looking for volunteers for a range of duties so if you would like to help please email me at kevin.ns.org,nz. You can find out what to do to start a group on our website (http://www.neighbourhoodsupport.org.nz/) or groups in other areas on the national website (www.ns.org.nz). If you could spread the word via your email networks that would be appreciated.
Cheers and sorry to threadjack.
Vote: