Dom Post says Hamas can end strikes

January 6th, 2009 at 12:14 pm by David Farrar

An excellent editorial from the Dom Post:

But ’ leaders and those who unquestioningly side with them overlook a simple fact when they deplore ’s assault on Gaza, The writes. Hamas, an organisation that is committed to the destruction of Israel, provoked the Israeli attacks and it has it within its power to stop them. All it has to do is stop firing rockets into Israeli territory.

Yes. Ask yourself this. If Israel stops it air strikes, will Hamas stop its rocket attacks? No – it will carry on. But if Hamas stopped rocket attacks, would Israel stop its strikes – absolutely.

In the past eight years 16 Israelis have been killed by rockets launched from within the strip. Israel’s response – air attacks and now a ground assault – is disproportionate. But what is Israel supposed to do? Would its critics prefer it to send a rocket back every time one landed in its territory? No other sovereign nation would tolerate a neighbour indiscriminately targeting its citizens, and anyone who thinks a people who pledged “never again” after the Holocaust would do so, has rocks in their head.

As David Cohen (currently in Israel) points out, there have been more than 9400 documented rocket attacks in the past five years, and in the last year almost 10 a day.

Hopelessly outgunned militarily, Hamas cannot hope to defeat Israel in a conventional war, but it can compete in a public relations battle for hearts and minds. The Israeli attacks are producing images of dead and wounded Palestinians that damage Israel’s international reputation.

They also serve as rallying posters for future Hamas foot soldiers.

That the strategy has cost hundreds of Palestinians their lives and condemned Gaza’s population of 1.5 million to even greater hardship does not appear to concern Hamas’ leaders.

In a column published in yesterday’s Dominion Post, Fania Oz-Salzberger, professor of modern Israel studies at Monash University in Melbourne, likened Hamas’ behaviour to that of a “poor and traumatised” man who sits with his daughter on his lap taking pot shots at a neighbour’s house packed with women and children.

That is a great analogy. And yes it is a deliberate strategy of Hamas to try and maximise civilian casualaties on both sides. Meanwhile as Whale Oil points out, Israel is going so far to minimise civilian deaths it is actually ringing neighbours of targets and giving them time to evacuate. This is why of 600 destroyed targets, there have been less than 100 civilian deaths (and around 400 non civilians). Israel is meant to have made more than 9,000 warning calls.

None of this justifies the wrongs done to Palestinians dispossessed of their ancestral lands, the unconscionable conditions in which millions of Palestinians live, or the excesses of the Israeli military. As Professor Oz-Salzberger writes: “Gazans are worse off than Israelis in every single way.”

Palestinians have reason for being poor and traumatised and bitter and vengeful.

But one simple fact remains. If Hamas’ leaders really want to end the suffering caused by the Israeli attacks they can do so.

All they have to do is stop firing rockets into Israeli territory, acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist and start negotiating.

The problems with Hamas go beyond Israel. They recently voted to bring back crucifixion as a punishment. Now think about how many pages have been devoted to the US water boarding, and how the media have almost totally failed to cover this vote to legalise this most barbaric way to kill someone.

And for those who think all these problems would disappear if Israel was wiped out, reflect on this fromMr Cohen again:

While the military campaign by the Israelis is against the Hamas death-cultists who are sworn to Israel’s destruction, there is no denying it is also aimed at sending a severe message to the Islamist group’s Iranian sponsors, whose to-do list of countries to eliminate after they’re done with the Zionist entity even includes New Zealand.

Yes, follow the link. Ths is not just a war about a border.

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194 Responses to “Dom Post says Hamas can end strikes”

  1. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    Good to see some fairer comment but it doesn’t go far enough.
    The UN, EU and the West in cahoots with the Arabs have just as much blame for the so called Palestinians situation and appalling conditions.

    I see that Egypt’s role as an honest broker is also being brought into the open as well, no peace can occur as long as the Egyptians allow the tunnels and their own intelligence and military to make money out of the smuggling.
    Murrabak rightly is now being pinged for this and hopefully the media take it up.
    I won’t hold my breath.

    http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=12DB9B06-BB39-4472-8FE6-3D7E52274122

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  2. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Its mindboggling how anyone can defend, let alone support Hamas when they make claims like this,

    “On Monday, Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar exhorted Palestinians to fight the Israeli forces and target Israeli civilians and Jews abroad”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10550648&pnum=3

    “target Israeli civilians and Jews abroad” yep, Hamas are nothing but murdering terrorists and the world will be a better place without them

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  3. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    DPF, your posts on this and certain other subjects just get better and better; you seem to be getting a bit more aggressive against the forces of unreason than you used to be, and that goes for those excellent little (DPF) editors notes on some of the more absurd comments from those forces of unreason. Keep it up.

    Just like to comment on THIS:

    “…..While the military campaign by the Israelis is against the Hamas death-cultists who are sworn to Israel’s destruction, there is no denying it is also aimed at sending a severe message to the Islamist group’s Iranian sponsors, whose to-do list of countries to eliminate after they’re done with the Zionist entity even includes New Zealand…….”

    “….Yes, follow the link. Ths is not just a war about a border……”

    It is great to see you and others so completely on to it, DPF. Regarding the Islamists and New Zealand, I am certain I have read that Osama Bin Laden included New Zealand in one of his rants once long before Afghanistan, because of our participation in the East Timor operations (although I can’t find any reference online); as Indonesia is a Muslim country, any Western nation participating in the liberation of (Catholic?) East Timor is guilty of being part of the whole Christian “Crusader” thing that Muslims find so objectionable. Our lefty apologists for Islamist violence simply cannot rationalise this one (not that they can rationalise much anyway and not that that even matters a lot to them).

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  4. ross (1,414 comments) says:

    > would Israel stop its strikes – absolutely.

    You are so funny, David. You’ve given me the best laugh in ages.

    [DPF: Can you provide any recent examples where Israel has iniated military action, rather than responded to attacks? Not for several decades]

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  5. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Iran intends to invade New Zealand?

    [DPF: No but the fanatics see us as enemies due to out culture and heritage]

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  6. virtualmark (1,306 comments) says:

    An angle that doesn’t seem to be getting a lot of coverage in the media is the timing of the **Palestinian** elections.

    There’s been commentary about how Israel is going to the polls next month and so it suits several of the Israeli political players to be seen showing a stern face at the moment.

    But the Palestinians are due to go to the polls this year too, and it looks like their presidential and parliamentary elections will happen in April. Hamas’ popularity in the Gaza has been hit a bit by their inability to tackle the (many) day-to-day problems. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamas doesn’t see goading Israel into a conflict as a way to shore up their credentials with Palestinian voters and retain the ground they won in the 2006 elections.

    So it could well there’s two dogs wagging in Gaza at the moment … with the everyday citizens once more meat for the machine.

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  7. goodgod (1,317 comments) says:

    For a pig that often squeals for proof via http://www.links, Ryan, seems you don’t follow them. No surprise really.

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  8. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Well duh. Where is it proven fact that the only party launching Qassams is Hamas. Given this is part of an ongoing internal struggle with Fatah, it’s in Fatah’s interest to launch them too, isn’t it. And if you think they are any less ruthless than Hamas, get out of town. In addition, what about Al Aqsa Brigades, an offshoot of Fatah, and other groups. Don’t you think that maybe some of them, for some reason, might be feeling highly motivated to do some Qassaming?

    Fucking D’oh.

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  9. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    For a pig that often squeals for proof via http://www.links, Ryan, seems you don’t follow them. No surprise really.

    Goodgod, what’s your reason for calling me a pig?

    And I’d like a reference on you suggesting I “squeal for proof”. I can only assume you’re referring to where I, out of genuine interest, asked for references from Whaleoil, and got them.

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  10. fishe (166 comments) says:

    virtualmark…yeah I’ve noted this as well (well, read it around a few places). It’s interesting to find the subtle undercurrents of explanation – of course the elections are just one factor.

    I just watched a bit of the pro-Hamas rally in WLG today from up high…anyone know the turnout to this? Did they even go to parliament? Starting from MFAT’s offices was a bit strange no?

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  11. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    And further to that, I did follow the link. That’s where I read the following.

    Ahmadinejad’s chief strategic guru Hassan Abbassi:

    We have a strategy drawn up for the destruction of Anglo-Saxon civilization… we must make use of everything we have at hand to strike at this front by means of our suicide operations or by means of our missiles. There are 29 sensitive sites in the U.S. and in the West. We have already spied on these sites and we know how we are going to attack them.

    But it is not only the US that Abbasi wants to take on and humiliate. He has described Britain as “the mother of all evils”. In his lecture he claimed that the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and the Gulf states were all “children of the same mother: the British Empire.” As for France and Germany, they are “countries in terminal decline”, according to Abbasi.

    “Once we have defeated the Anglo-Saxons the rest will run for cover,” he told his audience.

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  12. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “of course the elections are just one factor”

    Yes they are, fishe. What is your reading of the other factors in play?

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  13. Dazzaman (1,082 comments) says:

    I wonder when jastowns will step into this thread being the raging Anti-Semite he is? Nicely balanced article by the Dom. Quite rare for them, I suspect now they have their fair & objective piece in print they’ll go back to sticking the knife into the Israelis again.

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  14. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    Turpin, good on ya. We need a lot more people reading “Frontpage” Magazine.

    In the current issue; there is the article you have linked to, on Egypt’s “Double Game”; there is one on the Israeli ground offensive in Gaza; one by Alan Dershowitz on Israel’s legal right to do what it is doing; one by Theodore Dalrymple on Cuba’s 5 decades of lost hopes; one by Robert Spencer on the need to defend freedom of speech in the face of Islamist intimidation and Eurolefty appeasement; one by David Solway on examples of media bias over the last couple of days; one on “the confused economic musings of the Archbishop of Canterbury”; one very thorough one on the Hamas organisation, origins and goals; one by J J Carafano on US National Security issues for 2009; one by Steven Milloy on a recent completely nutty Greeny proposal; one by Roger Simon on the New York Times’ defamation of John McCain over an alleged affair; and a whole lot more. That is just one day’s issue; tomorrow there will be a complete fresh batch. What an incredible online resource.

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  15. Inventory2 (9,380 comments) says:

    It was one of the Dom-Post’s better editorials of late, even offering a simple solution

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/01/excellent-editorial.html

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  16. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    # ross (199) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating3 Says:
    January 6th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    > would Israel stop its strikes – absolutely.

    “You are so funny, David. You’ve given me the best laugh in ages.”

    Ross, you are the lowest kind of scum, akin to the people who believed every lie about Jews in 1930’s Nazi Germany. DPF is 100% right and you are 100% wrong, warped,and sick in the head.

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  17. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Mr Farrar writes (of crucifixion) “this most barbaric way to kill someone.”
    How does it compare with death from phosphorus burns, I wonder? That pesky phosphorus that burns through skin and flesh, sometimes reaching bone, until is all used up. That illegal phosphorus that is being deployed by Israel in the skies over Gaza today.

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  18. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    Excellent Op-Ed by Melanie Phillips in the Daily Mail;

    “War is Terrible, but the Alternative in Gaza was Worse”

    “……This is a war that Israel spent more than seven years trying to avoid, while no fewer than 6,000 rockets and other missiles rained down from Gaza upon its southern towns. No other country in the world would have sat on its hands while its traumatised children were raised in bomb shelters.

    The often-made comparison with IRA terrorism spectacularly misses the point. Hamas actually run Gaza. The equivalent would have been the Irish government firing 6,000 rockets at England.

    Does anyone seriously doubt that, in such a hypothetical situation, Britain would have been at war with Ireland long before that total had been reached?

    Far from acting out of political opportunism, as some so offensively suggest, Israel has taken massive risks on every front with this operation. A ground war almost certainly means many of its soldiers will die. If just one of its shells were to go astray and hit a school or hospital, a hostile western world would unleash the furies against it.

    And in Lebanon, Hezbollah may launch its ferocious arsenal of rockets pointing at northern Israel, forcing it to fight on two fronts. But the brutal fact is that tiny, besieged Israel is damned if it does and dead if it doesn’t.

    While Arab countries such as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia as well as Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas blame Hamas for provoking this war, it is Israel which is drawing western protests.

    These are not confined to the thuggish demonstrations organised by an alliance of Islamists and the far-Left we have seen on the streets of London at the weekend. Many others also share the view that Israel is in the wrong. So why is a country under attack from genocidal fanatics pilloried for defending its citizens against slaughter?

    The main complaint is that Israel’s response is ‘disproportionate’, since some 500 Palestinians have been killed compared with ‘only’ four Israelis since the war started nine days ago.

    This is absurd. In World War II, 20 times more civilians were killed in Germany than in Britain. Did that make the war against the Nazis ‘disproportionate’? Of course not.

    Then there’s the belief that the Hamas rockets are some kind of homemade, harmless Dad’s Army effort which could and should be ignored.

    But the only reason more Israelis haven’t been killed by them is that in the south, the population has been all but living in bomb shelters. And there is nothing ‘homemade’ about the Russian-designed Katyushas and Iranian Grad rockets now putting around one-tenth of Israel’s population within their range.

    Contrary to Arab propaganda, the Israelis are taking enormous pains to avoid civilian casualties in their attempt to curb these rocket attacks. The UN has confirmed that the vast majority (75 per cent) of the dead in Gaza have been Hamas terrorists. Given the huge number of bombing sorties that have been conducted, this proves that the Israelis are specifically targeting the Hamas infrastructure.

    Alas, the civilian death toll will unavoidably mount, which is deeply regrettable. But what must be understood is that Hamas have deliberately situated their weapons under apartment blocks, in mosques and in hospitals.

    The Israelis build bomb shelters for their civilians; Hamas store bombs underneath their civilians in order to create as many civilian casualties as possible to manipulate world opinion.

    What people find so hard to grasp is that Hamas actually want to maximise the number of Palestinians who are killed because, as they boast: ‘We desire death as you desire life.’

    Despite this fanaticism, many fear that Israel’s attack will merely create yet more suicide bombers. There is a grain of sense in this — but only a grain.

    This is because every single act of self-defence against Islamist aggression is used as a recruiting sergeant for the Islamic holy war. So if this is allowed to dictate world responses, it follows that no one can ever defend themselves against Islamist rockets and bomb attacks — not just in Israel but in Afghanistan or against Al Qaeda anywhere.

    Islamists such as Hamas are galvanised into battle by the perceived weakness of their victims, and are deterred only by implacable strength. That’s why the ferocity of suicide bomb attacks actually rises after peace initiatives. Gaza’s rocket barrage against Israel went up by 500 per cent after Israel ended its occupation.

    And the 2000 Intifada which killed thousands of Israelis was the Palestinians’ response to being offered more than 90 per cent of the West Bank and Gaza for a state of their own.

    What is so distressing is the desperate unfairness of so much Western reaction. Thus Israel is accused of causing a humanitarian disaster in Gaza, even though it is allowing hundreds of trucks of supplies through the crossing points — so that at one stage aid agencies in Gaza said their storehouses were full.

    Few are aware that wounded Gazans — 65 per cent of whom voted for Hamas — are continuing to be treated in Israeli hospitals. Nor are they aware that in a Gaza hospital, by contrast, Hamas shot dead five suspected Palestinian ‘collaborators’ — and murdered a further 30 elsewhere.

    The reason for this grotesquely unfair reaction is that so many in Britain now believe as fact the Arab lies about the Middle East impasse. Many think, for example, that the Palestinians are the rightful inheritors not just of Gaza and the West Bank but Israel itself…….”

    READ THE WHOLE THING……..

    http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=636

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  19. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Israel is damned if it does and dead if it doesn’t.”

    Myth and propaganda. How can Qassams destroy Israel? They can’t. Period. This is not an existential threat Israel is countering in Gaza. This is a political operation to destroy the main Hamas support base so Fatah can get in, to restrict Obama’s ME options throughout the foreseeable future and to bolster politician’s reputations for the February elections.

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  20. fishe (166 comments) says:

    @reid: I’m intentionally not biting. Throw away general backup statement abuse granted. :)

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  21. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Greenfly. “That illegal phosphorus that is being deployed by Israel in the skies over Gaza today.”

    What’s your source – Do you have a link to this?

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  22. 3-coil (1,199 comments) says:

    The Dom editorial still refers to the Israeli military response as “disproportionate”.

    When Arab-Israeli prisoner exchanges have occured in the past (examples I could find of 204:2 and 1150:3) are these considered to be unfairly “disproportionate” too – or are these ratios somehow less “disproportionate”?

    To me it seems the morality arguments vary with whoever has attained the upper hand.

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  23. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “@reid: I’m intentionally not biting.”

    No I wasn’t fishing, fishe. It’s just most threads don’t cover the strategic factors and we haven’t really had a good joint discussion on them. I gave you three of mine above. Spoff had a great link to a Vanity Fair article that details the US Administration’s reactions to the election of Hamas, it’s great background.

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  24. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    Ah, even Mark Steyn’s latest, covers what DPF has pointed out above; you’re in good company, DPF:

    “Gaza Has It’s Version Of Rocket Scientists”

    “…….In Gaza, they don’t vote for Hamas because they want access to university education. Or, if they do, it’s to get Junior into the Saudi-funded, Hamas-run Islamic University of Gaza, where majoring in rocket science involves making one and firing it at the Zionist Entity. In 2007, as part of their attempt to recover Gaza from Hamas, Fatah seized 1,000 Qassam rockets at the university, as well as seven Iranian military trainers.

    At a certain unspoken level, we understand that the Huntington thesis is right, and the Rice view is wishful thinking. After all, when French President Sarkozy and other European critics bemoan Israel’s “disproportionate” response, what really are they saying? That they expect better from the despised Jews than from Hamas. That they regard Israel as a Western society bound by civilized norms, whereas any old barbarism issuing forth from Gaza is to be excused on grounds of “desperation.”

    Hence, this slightly surreal headline from The New York Times: “Israel Rejects Cease-Fire, But Offers Gaza Aid.” For whatever that’s worth. Wafa Samir Ibrahim al-Biss, a young Palestinian woman who received considerate and exemplary treatment at an Israeli hospital in Beersheba, returned to that same hospital packed with explosives in order to blow herself up and kill the doctors and nurses who restored her to health. Well, what do you expect? It’s “desperation” born of “poverty” and “occupation.”

    If it was, it would be easy to fix. But what if it’s not? What if it’s about something more primal than land borders and economic aid?

    A couple of days after Hamas voted to restore crucifixion to the Holy Land, their patron in Tehran (and their primary source of “aid”) put in an appearance on British TV. As multicultural “balance” to Her Majesty The Queen’s traditional Christmas message, the TV network Channel 4 invited President Ahmadinejad to give an alternative Yuletide address on the grounds that it was a valuable public service to let viewers hear him “speak for himself, which people in the West don’t often get the chance to see.”

    In fact, as JWR contributor Caroline Glick pointed out in The Jerusalem Post, the great man “speaks for himself” all the time — when he’s at the United Nations, calling on all countries to submit to Islam; when he’s presiding over his international conference of Holocaust deniers; when he’s calling for Israel to be “wiped off the map” — or (in his more “moderate” moments) relocated to a couple of provinces of Germany and Austria. Caroline Glick forbore to mention that, according to President Ahmadinejad’s chief adviser, Hassan Abbassi, his geopolitical strategy is based on the premise that “Britain is the mother of all evils” — the evils being America, Australia, Israel, the Gulf states, Canada and New Zealand, all the malign progeny of the British Empire. “We have established a department that will take care of England,” Mr. Abbassi said in 2005. “England’s demise is on our agenda.”

    So when Britain’s Channel 4 says that we don’t get the chance to see these fellows speak for themselves, it would be more accurate to say that they speak for themselves incessantly but the louder they speak the more we put our hands over our ears and go “Nya nya, can’t hear you.” We do this in part because, if you’re as invested as most Western elites are in the idea that all anyone wants is to go to university, get a steady job and settle down in a nice house in the suburbs, a statement such as “England’s demise is on our agenda” becomes almost literally untranslatable. When President Ahmadinejad threatens to wipe Israel off the face of the map, we deplore him as a genocidal fantasist. But maybe he’s a genocidal realist, and we’re the fantasists…….”

    READ THE WHOLE THING:

    http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0109/steyn010509.php3?printer_friendly

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  25. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Greenfly. “That illegal phosphorus that is being deployed by Israel in the skies over Gaza today.”

    What’s your source – Do you have a link to this?

    Careful, Patrick. Asking for sources is “squealing for proof”.

    Israel denies using Willie Pete as a weapon. NB: White phosphorus is legal to use as a smokescreen or for illumination.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-palestine-munitions

    I also cannot find anything but a single “Press TV” report of Israel using depleted-uranium ammunition, so that seems very unlikely to me.

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  26. Chuck Bird (4,894 comments) says:

    There is an excellent link on Muriel Newman’s Forum

    http://www.nzcpr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=245

    This speech to the Heritage Foundation by Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebanese American journalist, author and activist, has been sent by Robin. It is in six short segments. Brigitte warns that the West has been wallowing in a state of ignorance and denial for thirty years as Muslim extremist perpetrated evil against innocent victims in the name of Allah.

    This speech could make topic on its own.

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  27. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    # Patrick Starr (1153) Vote: Add rating1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 6th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Greenfly. “That illegal phosphorus that is being deployed by Israel in the skies over Gaza today.”

    “What’s your source – Do you have a link to this?”

    Yeah, I’ve been trying to find something conclusive on this, it all seems to be lefty anti-Israel rumours growing legs at the moment. You know, where people like Greenfly are concerned, Israel might as well just rain phosphorus all over Gaza and kill everybody there, if they are going to get accused of “war crimes” all the time no matter what they do. A bit like that movie “Double Jeopardy”, where someone does jail time for a murder that they didn’t commit, and when they’ve done their time, they go and murder the person that they were convicted for murdering in the first place, but who had actually been alive and kicking all along………

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  28. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

    Another white-phosphorus source, with photos.

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  29. Brian Smaller (3,966 comments) says:

    I just watched a bit of the pro-Hamas rally in WLG today from up high…anyone know the turnout to this? Did they even go to parliament? Starting from MFAT’s offices was a bit strange no?

    There were about thirty useful tools. A few Arabs but mostly dumb Kiwi lefties who would get their throats cut by any self-respecting jihadi. I imagine the TV news will say there were 300.

    The really funny thing was the little group of aged counter-protesters on the other side of the road. This HUGE Arab guy came up to them. I mean he was 6′-something and must have weighed 150kg. He jabbed his fingers at the old pro-Israel protesters and said “You for Hamas?”. They answered “no”. Then the guy asked “They for Hamas?”. The answer was yes. Then the big guy says, and I kid you not, “I go punch them in head”. The israeli group calmed him down. The guy hated Hamas, Iran, Hizbollah etc etc. You have to read his quotes while spitting out the words with a strong accent..

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  30. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – the photo of the exploding shells is Rueters – (taken during the day, so I guess ‘illumination’ wasn’t the reason for its use) and the article by Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem and Michael Evans in London, in the Times.

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  31. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Greenfly, So in other words you’re just guessing to;
    1,/ the use of phosphorus weapons
    2./ the area the shells where exploding (Yes it makes a difference)

    Besides Israel, (like the USA) are not signatories to GCCW Protocol III, so how do you claim it is illegal?

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  32. 3-coil (1,199 comments) says:

    Greenfly (2:08pm) – Reuters have been caught red-handed “photoshopping” their anti-Israeli photos before….are you sure you can trust them now? :-)

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  33. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Reuters have been caught red-handed “photoshopping” their anti-Israeli photos before”

    Whereas the “pro-Israel” press like Fox would never ever use selective bias let alone lies, to promote its perspective. Yeh right. The mistake people make is becoming hooked into thinking that either side is better, more credible, more believable than the other.

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  34. Sean (290 comments) says:

    New Zealand will be targeted by the anti-zionists because it voted for partition at the UN in 1949.

    White phosphorous may be used as illumination (at night) or as smoke cover (during the day). Both are legal uses under relevant international law.

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  35. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Reid I dont know if you can make that claim – e.g. France 2 have had a high court rule against them for their part in staged ‘Pallywood” reporting.
    Do you have any proof that Fox has similarly ‘lied’?

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  36. Dazzaman (1,082 comments) says:

    “Israel is damned if it does and dead if it doesn’t.”

    Myth and propaganda. How can Qassams destroy Israel? They can’t. Period. This is not an existential threat Israel is countering in Gaza. This is a political operation to destroy the main Hamas support base so Fatah can get in, to restrict Obama’s ME options throughout the foreseeable future and to bolster politician’s reputations for the February elections.

    reid
    To an extent, you are right especially with regards to destroying “….the main Hamas support base so Fatah can get in…..” and boosting the ruling centrist Kadima party’s stock amongst the center-right and right of the electorate in a bid to portray themselves as unflinching in their dealings with ruling Palestinian terror groups.

    But the basic premise of the “Israel is damned if it does and dead if it doesn’t.” quote is still valid even if it is a bit of a flag waving exercise, especially the second part. The sabre-rattling from their more belligerent neighbours will always be a cause of concern (and stronger!) for the Israeli’s. I’m afraid that Israel must continue to clobber the Palestinians from time-to-time just to remind its neighbours that it has a big sabre to rattle if they start getting a bit bolshie. I’m sure they’ve weighed up all that along with the condemnation that usually follows and………they put up with the condemnation and do what they have to do. And who can blame them really!

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  37. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Do you have any proof that Fox has ‘lied’?

    Patrick, if you think Fox is reliable, as in both credible and honest, then be my guest. Allow me to disagree however. While I could cite numerous Fox examples to establish my disagreement, I can’t be arsed because you know what, I don’t care.

    Media bias is pandemic, across all sectors. To choose to see it in one sector but not in others is, to me, palpably incorrect. End of story.

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  38. Danyl Mclauchlan (941 comments) says:

    for anyone that wants a balanced view this is what Ron Paul has to say

    Classic.

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  39. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “But the basic premise of the “Israel is damned if it does and dead if it doesn’t.” quote is still valid”

    No, it’s not, Dazzaman. I’ve dealt with this on previous posts and not one person has even addressed let alone negated the premise. To repeat, fact is, Israel has nuclear deterrence and a cast-iron cross-party security guarantee from the world’s only superpower and the region’s most powerful and well-equipped self-controlled military. She is totally secure against everything but a rogue threat, period. No-one has disputed this since I raised it last weekend. No-one. And the implication is, therefore, that Israel is NOT “dead if it doesn’t…”

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  40. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Reid, “Media bias is pandemic” yep I agree.

    But there is a big difference between ‘flavouring’ and ‘fabricating’ a story

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  41. What would Hayek say (51 comments) says:

    For the Hamas (death cult) apologists. i.e. reid and greenfly.

    Some history would be useful before you blindly shoot yourself in the foot with both barrels. Ignoring pre 1947 history for simplicity and too many he said/she said arguments recent history provides a guide to the current conflict.

    In 1947 the UN approved the partition of Palestine into two states one Jewish and one Arab. In 1948 the Jewish state declared independence (as allowed under UN plan) and were promptly attacked by the neighbouring Arab states who refused to accept the plan and intended to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The Arab states had support from european countries in particular Britian. Unlike the Arab states (which included Jordan, Yemen, Eygpt and Suadi Arabia) The State of Israel was unable to buy munitions and had to smuggle weapons in from Eastern Europe. This resulted in the irony of Israeli pilots flying ex-german/czech Messerchmitt 109’s and Focke-wulfs and fighting against british Spitfires. The war ended in a ceasefire (effectively a stalemate). Isreal was admitted to the UN, Jordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem, Egypt took control of Gaza. A large number of Palestinians became refugees as a result of this conflict. The refugees mainly occurred on the basis of people moving out to allow Arab soldiers positions to attack Israel on the belief that after the Israelis were wipped out they could move into the Israeli land and have it as there own. Note: Nothing in the Israeli/Arab conflict is simple or easy, right and wrong is quite fluid.

    The next major conflict was the 1956 Suez conflict which originated in atatcks from the Eygptian gaza strip and closing of the Suez canal. 1967 is the date for the next major conflict beign the six day war. It was this war that really earned the Israeli army its reputation for skill and capability taking on the massed Arab army and bringing the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and Sinai under Israeli control.

    The 1967 war and failure of the Arab states to wipe out Israel resulted in the development of the PLO as an alternative means to liberate Israel for the palestinian refugees. These refugees having been abandoned by the every people (the Arab states) who had promised to look after them. The ongoing promises of an easy answer and using of the palestinian people as a political toll to wipe out Israel has been a spectatular failure in leadership by the Arab states and Arab politicians.

    In terms of international backing the US did not become a supporter of Israel till the 1973 Yom Kipper war. The reason for US suport was due to cold war geo-politics. The Soviets heavily backed the Arab states with finance and weapons in the 1973 war. Israel during prior to the war did not have US support (but had by then had some support from Britian and France as a result of Suez Canal crisis, during which the US sided with Egypt resulting in Britian, France and Israel withdrawing). US support came after the inital attack and involved the flying in of munitions after Israeli force had initially halted the Arab attack but not yet been in a position to counter-attack.

    Please be careful about saying the US is the great satan and always supports Israel. This is a myth and US support only came about because of Soviet backing for the Arab attack – geopolitics demanded the US support Israel as a counter to Soviet domination of the region. The US also provided the same support to Taiwan for the same reason. It is important to note US support fluctuates and ebbs – this is neither right or wrong just a feature of the great game.

    The world after Yom Kipper is essentially the set up for today – Eygpt and Jordan decided peace with Israel was a better tactic and provided internal stability within there own countries (losing wars is not a good look for a ruler). The PLO and there descendants – Hamas and Fatah continue a proxy war suported and funded in particular by Syria and Iran, with tacit support from inidividuals within Saudi Arabia and Eygpt (turning a blind eye at borders and private funding).

    The Palestinians are yet to make any progress on internal organisation (factional fighting) to enable them to set up a viable government with Hamas in particular spouting (at least for internal consumption) to wipe out Israel.

    Isreal in the last 2-3 years has been removing some settlements (admittedly only a few and mostly only for security purposes). The settler movement has not been helpful (small understatement) to reducing issues.

    Ways out – finding focal points for the israeli and palestinians to build trust with each other. The removal of Syrian and Iran as influences in the region (the conflict enables the leaders of both countries to legitimise their autocratic regimes and oppression of their own people). The focal points would need to build trust over time and allow the creation of a Palestian State. Israel would have to accept some border change, but Israel may accept this so long as there safety is guaranteed and that can really only be done by the development of trust. Trust is in short supply when the leaders of your neighbouring countries keep saying they will wipe out Israel.

    Finally Phosphourous is not illegal – so stop the hysteria greenfly. You appear to have an excessively thymotic reaction to actions that have no impact on you. Adding some rational thinking may help your advocacy. Proportionality is also a wasted point. Also as many commentators point out Hamas is deliberately trying to have their own people killed.

    Peace in the middle east would be nice – but that will have to come from the people involved in the conflict wanting peace.

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  42. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “For the Hamas (death cult) apologists. i.e. reid and greenfly. Some history would be useful before you blindly shoot yourself in the foot with both barrels.”

    Firstly Hayek, show me where anything I’ve said could be interpreted as support for Hamas (hint: being anti-Israel doesn’t count, idiot. Don’t make me explain why.)

    Secondly, what’s your point? Fucking long post, to say precisely nothing. “Peace in the middle east would be nice – but that will have to come from the people involved in the conflict wanting peace.” Great fucking insight, you twat.

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  43. What would Hayek say (51 comments) says:

    Reid – you state you are anti-Israel. What is the difference betwee your views and hamas you both have the same objective. So yes you are a death cult apologist.

    The purpose of the post was context and dealing with reapeated myths of cast iron US support. This does not exist. Like greenfly you appear to be a simple thymotic individual who would benefit from utilising the rational part of their brain to improve there comments.

    Oh and by in large the actions in Israel/palestine at present are largely thymotic in orgin (that is passion, anger, fear, love, hope) by all parties. Being able to find focal points that help build trust maybe one way to shift from the instant thymotic anger outburst. Adding some long term rational thinking involving nation building an economic development would also help. But first you have to get past the anger.

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  44. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr and supporters – I was interested to contrast the ‘phosphorus’ with the ‘crucifixion’ reportage that Mr Farrar used in his post. I presume you are as confident that the latter is more valid than the former?

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  45. jastowns (126 comments) says:

    this is funny iv gone back over the post(not just this thread) and have realized pro-zoinist are trying to convince those that know there history and the history of zionist propaganda israel has no other option but to kill palestinians,its the same people over and over again
    i have come to the conclusion this site is nothing more than a propaganda tool,anyone trying to convince these people that israel is in the wrong is wasting there time,there all zionest and the truth is of no consequence
    these people are only convincing themselves,as those that know there history will not be turned by there zoinist lies
    the funny part is i and others have wasted time here because there is no one to convince, there all zoinist hell bent on flushing anti-zoinest views down the shit hole
    i say this to all you pro-zionist fools you have turned no one with you lies
    have fun backing up your propaganda to each other,i will concentrate my time on those with a quest for truth
    this will be the last time i wast my time here at this site talking to propaganda fools
    israel will pay heavily for its lies and i will be apart of that having just now decided to invest more time into spreading the truth about zionist and there plans
    i have this site to thank for my new mission so thank you and goodbye
    THE TRUTH NEVER HAS TO HIDE

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  46. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Mr Hayek would say said: “Finally Phosphourous is not illegal – so stop the hysteria greenfly.”
    My post was far from hysterical Mr WWHS. I posed a measured question re. Mr Farrar’s slanted post. Your willingness to attribute ‘thymotic’ characteristics to me is a bit daft, given the relative temperatures of your and my comments.
    As to the legality of phosphorus ..”The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas…” and despite the proviso comes with it, ” may be used as a smokescreen of for illumination’, I’ve a question for you, Mr WWHS. Do you condone its use ?(lets imagine that the Times reporters have it correct).

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  47. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Reid – you state you are anti-Israel.”

    No, you state I am, Hayek. It’s YOUR view that what I say is anti-Israel, because YOU interpret it to be such.

    You don’t appear to understand that what I’m saying is actually beneficial for Israel. It’s rather elementary. This Gaza attack is counter-productive because it heightens the level of the only real theatre security risk that Israel has. This is either a rogue WMD attack or an attack from Iran. Gaza has increased the motivation to launch a rogue WMD from all who would do such a thing. Gaza has heightened the risk of an attack from Iran – you know of course its military were placed on alert when Gaza began.

    It’s unnecessary because Israel’s invulnerable to all other security risks.

    Therefore, Gaza is against Israel’s best interests from a security perspective, so why do it? Well, look at that Vanity Fair article for an explanation. It’s quite simple.

    One controversial opinion I hold is that I think those who argue that Iran is the aggressive ‘blameable’ belligerent, are, in my view, acting like useful idiots. Iran will never strike Israel first, IMO. Israel however, is disparately trying to convince the west that Iran’s a threat. Yeh, like AGW is to the planet.

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  48. What would Hayek say (51 comments) says:

    I have no viewpoint on phosphourous.

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  49. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    What would Hayek say said “I have no viewpoint on phosphourous.”

    You’d have no eyes either, if it was raining down on you (just confirming to your “thymotic’ charge :-)

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  50. What would Hayek say (51 comments) says:

    Reid at 2.51pm you said “Firstly Hayek, show me where anything I’ve said could be interpreted as support for Hamas (hint: being anti-Israel doesn’t count, idiot. Don’t make me explain why.” The words being ant-Israel doesn’t count, suggests to the reader that you are anti-israel.

    If that is not correct then I am happy for there be an alternative way to read your statement.
    Rereading the thread my view of your comments may also not be helped by uncertainty of whether your comments are general sarcasim/cynicism. I see at one point you ask for a wider strategic discussion. In part my original post was to provide some context for the strategic environment. Discussions over phosphorous to me are not about the wider strategy and are just on the ground tactics and can be debated endlessly after the shooting is over. A dead person is dead person whether its because of a stone, bullet, knife, phosphorous etc. So I have no view on tactics, war is about killing pretending there are nice ways to kill someone is not something I think worthy of a discussion.

    I suspect where you and i really diverge is in views on current security of Israel – I don’t see a cast iron guarantee of protection provided by the US. Just a current strategic alliance but one that could change in the future.

    I can see your view that Gaza is counter-productive. I tend to think the current operation is just part of ongoing cycle and you maybe right it is counterproductive. I just don’t see the incentives on either party to change behaviours because of the wider strategic environment, which is why I mention looking for focal points where Israel and Palestinians can work together the build trust and change the cycle. Otherwise this is a war to the tenth generation and beyond.

    I note you state Iran will not strike Israel first in your opinion. That maybe true but from most external infomation provided point Iran is acting like a driver in a game of chicken who has thrown out the steering wheel. The other driver has no other information to think that the driver will pull over and therefore must commit to a collission. Bad game theory outcome. Based on actions of iran and there regimes statements and the absence of any no other information it would seem like Iran will attack in some way or form.

    Which is again why I talk of creating focal points – see Thomas Schelling and the book the strategy of conflict. Currently there is no communication between palestinians and Israel so the challenge is to find another way to enable that communication. Scheeling used the co-ordination game to illustrate “tommorow you meet a stranger in New York, where do you meet?” the most common answer is noon at grand central station. In the absence of information of time of place grand central and noon provide a focal point. There is no good reason for grand central and noon except tradition. So where can we find focal points for people in israel and palestine that provide a means to communicate trust and thereby change the game.

    Car wrecks are the alternative and benefit no one.

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  51. MT_Tinman (3,315 comments) says:

    This bullshit has been going on for longer than I can remember. Much longer and I admit I no longer care.

    Having said this, and having read many of the posts on various threads within this blog and others I must question this statement from above;

    Hamas cannot hope to defeat Israel in a conventional war, but it can compete in a public relations battle for hearts and minds.

    I can see the “hearts” bit but doubt the existance of “minds” in the Hamas terrorist defenders.

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  52. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Interesting interview with an Israeli professor in Negev.

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  53. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “Patrick Starr and supporters – I was interested to contrast the ‘phosphorus’ with the ‘crucifixion’ reportage that Mr Farrar used in his post”
    No you weren’t you fabricated a story and now you attempt to twist what you have said.
    “As to the legality of phosphorus ..”The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas…” and despite the proviso comes with it, ” may be used as a smokescreen of for illumination”
    you rely on Protocol III, that prohibits the use of all ‘air-delivered’ incendiary weapons against civilian populations, or for ‘indiscriminate’ incendiary attacks against military forces co-located with civilians. However, that protocol also specifically excludes weapons whose incendiary effects are secondary, such as smoke grenades which the photos show were being used. Nevertheless as earlier said Israel, (like the USA) are not signatories to Protocol III

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  54. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “I don’t see a cast iron guarantee of protection provided by the US. Just a current strategic alliance but one that could change in the future.”

    OK, if it were say, Saudi Arabia against Israel in a fight against the other, who’s the US gonna back? If it was the entire Arab League in the same deal, who’s the US going to back. End of story. Regionally, the only strategic threat from any ME nation, is Iran. Period. Israel is totally secure. Furthermore, the Qassams are, strategically speaking, mere pin-pricks. They can’t blow up the State of Israel. For some reason, people seem to overlook that simple fact.

    Gaza is NOT about the security threat from the Qassams, but partly, about the political threat they pose to the Israeli politicians chances of re-election. Does anyone expect them to admit they’re doing this partly for electoral purposes? Look at the timing, FFS. Just long enough for the post-Gaza fuss to fade into the background but long enough to leave a lingering…

    On top of all this, the IDF currently has a serious ME reputational problem bought about through the loss of its aura of invincibility, as a result of the outcome of Olmert’s Lebanese adventure. Gaza doesn’t improve this issue one little bit.

    “Currently there is no communication between palestinians and Israel”

    Ahh, correction. We can probably assume there is no communication between Hamas and Israel. Remember however that Fatah is the favoured son, at this moment. I bet Fatah and Israel are communicating plenty, right now.

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  55. serge (108 comments) says:

    Someone reminded me that we used to say that fighting for peace is like f-cking for virginity, and yes we must strive toward peace but it takes two to tango and Hamas and its Palestinian followers have a conquering all of Israel agenda financed by Iran and Syria, so the fight is not for peace but to ensure that a large number of Israeli citizens can live normal lives without the daily rainfall of Qazzams or Chinese made rockets.

    I was in Wellington CBD today and saw the greens and a number of imported islamic supporters “protesting”. Their message was really that too many palestinians and not enough jews are being killed. Disgusting people….I have not seen these greens nor their accompanying islamics protesting over the plight of Zimbaweans, or the Somali Christians or the poor folk of Darfur or the Georgians for that matter….not, they protest over a bunch of Islamic murderers using their followers as human shields….

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  56. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Look, that Vanity Fair article I alluded to above, gives the US political background to the phenomena that I hope we all observed at the time, which was that instantly Hamas was elected, the US refused to deal with Hamas.

    The US put up a Quartet Agreement one of which clauses included requiring Hamas to renounce the destruction of the Israeli state. Now in international negotiations these kinds of things often crop up and if you’re serious, you find ways to work around them. However the US put it up as a take-it-or-leave-it-instant-decision-required proposition, which is what you do when you’re not serious.

    That article explains exactly the politics behind the media phenomena I observed virtually instantaneously Hamas were elected. Some of things I noticed were: Instantly, there was no more talk of Fatah in any negative way, and it was painted as the only legitimate Palestinian govt. Instantly, Israel cracked down hard on Gaza, which is Hamas only significant support base. Instantly, the US and many western countries refused to deal with Hamas. Bear in mind that none of this played out over a long process where negotiations were tried and they broke down etc etc. No, it was instant, all of it.

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  57. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    Well, well, well, I’ve just taken my daily look at “The Australian” website, and what do I find, near the top of the page?

    “……ISRAEL is believed to have used controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday.

    The weapon, used by British and US forces in Iraq, can cause horrific burns but is not illegal if used as a smokescreen.

    As the Israeli army stormed to the edges of Gaza City and the Palestinian death toll topped 500, the telltale shells could be seen spreading tentacles of thick white smoke to cover the troops’ advance.

    “These explosions are fantastic looking, and produce a great deal of smoke that blinds the enemy so that our forces can move in,” said one Israeli security expert.

    Burning blobs of phosphorus would cause severe injuries to anyone caught beneath them and force potential snipers or operators of remote-controlled booby traps to take cover.

    Israel admitted using white phosphorus during its 2006 war with Lebanon.

    The use of the weapon in the Gaza Strip, one of the world’s most densely populated areas, is likely to arouse yet more controversy over Israel’s offensive, in which more than 2300 Palestinians have been wounded.

    The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas, but there is no blanket ban under international law on its use as a smokescreen or for illumination…….”

    FULL MARKS TO “THE AUSTRALIAN”……….

    Read it all……

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24876404-2703,00.html

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  58. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Must be very difficult to prosecute WP use.

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  59. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Yes, WP is not a good look though, is it.

    I’d bet on the fact there are effective technology alternatives to get the job done (smokescreens or whatever), that wouldn’t have the same negative PR.

    Odd they chose not to deploy those, isn’t it. Especially given they’re operating in built-up areas and all.

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  60. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Must be very difficult to survive WP use.

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  61. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar exhorted Palestinians to fight the Israeli forces and target Israeli civilians and Jews abroad”

    with statements like this they should stuff WP down the bastards throat

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  62. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – or would you prefer they used the crucifixion option?

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  63. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    Ah, perhaps, REID; you might find THIS op-ed in the latest “Australian”, persuasive?

    “Stopping the Rockets a Necessity”;
    by Greg Sheridan

    “…..ISRAEL has taken the fateful step of a ground offensive in the Gaza Strip because ultimately the threat it faces from Hamas is strategic, even existential.

    Hamas has fired more than 6000 mostly Qassam rockets into Israel over the past four years.

    They have killed only about two dozen people, although in other acts of terrorism Hamas has killed hundreds of Israelis.

    But Israel must stop, or greatly reduce, the rockets from Gaza. It is an absolute strategic necessity.

    Perhaps the stupidest line of analysis to emerge in recent days has been to compare the deaths from Hamas rockets in Israel to traffic fatalities and say that Israel should relax.

    To grasp the nature of the strategic threat Hamas poses, it is necessary to place it in the context of its ally, Hezbollah, in southern Lebanon, and their common backer and puppet master, Iran.

    During Israel’s 2006 war with Hezbollah, rockets continued to rain down on Israel as far as the big industrial city of Haifa. There was an acute fear within Israel, although not much spoken of, that Hezbollah rockets would hit a massive oil refinery in Haifa. The flow-on effects from this could be catastrophic. During that war, much of northern Israel was effectively paralysed, and certainly closed for normal business.

    Despite the mistakes Israel made in that war, it got some things right. At the start of the conflict, it knocked out Hezbollah’s longest-range missiles that could reach Israel’s biggest city, Tel Aviv.

    And since then, the missiles have not come back from the north.

    Now they come from Gaza in the south. They not only terrorise the small Israeli town of Sderot, they frequently now reach Ashkelon, the industrial city that ironically provides electricity to Gaza. (There must be few occasions in history when a nation is expected to supply electricity to factories building rockets designed to blow up the electricity plant.)

    There are also chemical plants in Ashkelon that could be hit.

    The rockets also reach Ashdod, Israel’s biggest port. And they reach Beersheba, site of the famous Australian victory over the Ottoman Turks, and Israel’s biggest southern city.

    Nearby is Dimona, Israel’s nuclear reactor and, apparently, the site of some of its nuclear warheads.

    At the moment, Hamas does not have rockets of sufficient range and accuracy to hit any of these targets reliably. Apart from the Qassams, it uses Chinese-made Grad missiles and Katyushas, and some longer-range Iranian-supplied Fajr missiles.

    Because it is hemmed in by Israel on one side and Egypt on the other, it has not acquired an arsenal as deadly or as large as Hezbollah’s. But over the past 18 months, Hamas and Hezbollah have significantly deepened their military integration into the Iranian Revolutionary Guards……”

    READ IT ALL……

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24877778-7583,00.html

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  64. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Phil, I find none of this persuasive in any way. Give me facts as to the real risks from these rockets and explain how this leadership decapitation action reduces that risk.

    I regard simply mentioning a fact such as Dimona proximity, as irrelevant. Don’t cha think, if Dimona had ever actually been under Qassam threat, the political blogs we all follow would have been all over it? I mean, a major Qassam threat to Dimona, you don’t keep quiet, do you? Especially, especially when one side which happens to have many entrees into the ear of the US media, would have a huge vested interest in raising it at the highest levels.

    How come such scary things are only surfaced now, is my general point? As a general rule, I always wait until the heat dies down before sifting through the ashes, Phil. Helps me sort the wheat from the chaff.

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  65. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    greenfly. Do you agree with what Zahar said?

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  66. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – of course not. I’m concerned about the phosphorus bombs. I’m no advocate for any ‘side’.

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  67. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    Is what you are saying, Reid, that Israel should just wait until the rockets being launched at them DO get long range enough and accurate enough and destructive enough, to kill, say a few dozen, or a few hundred people at once (please clarify what you think acceptable); before they should, say, expect, say, the UN to do something on their behalf?

    Do you think that the citizens of any country on earth would regard that as acceptable? Especially given the nexus between Hamas and certain potential suppliers of such ordnance?

    I am inclined to think that if it happened ONCE, Israel WOULD do something that would give the Gazans a lot more death and destruction; and it would be better to just keep Gaza shut down in the first place.

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  68. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    HERE is an interesting prediction from Richard Landes:

    http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/12/31/get-me-a-massacre-up-next-the-kfar-qana-of-operation-molten-lead/

    He predicts, from past experience, that it is about now that Israel will be blamed for some “massacre” that will have been a fabrication from Pallywood from start to finish; and as usual, the media will be all over it and we will never find out from them what a filthy lie the whole thing was……..

    “…….Whether by Israeli accident or Hamas engineering, expect a spectacular civilian massacre in the coming days, followed by an orgy of Pallywood photography, amplified by a compliant Western media, and even greater fury in the streets of the Muslim and Western world. It’s in the Hamas playbook… and will be until the media gets sober. Here’s the background, and the obscenity that will probably be played….”

    Do follow the link and read the whole thing……….

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  69. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Is what you are saying, Reid, that Israel should just wait until the rockets being launched at them DO get long range enough and accurate enough and destructive enough, to kill, say a few dozen, or a few hundred people at once (please clarify what you think acceptable); before they should, say, expect, say, the UN to do something on their behalf?

    Of course I’m not. Israeli Qassam casualty figures are single-digit. Not a threat to the State of Israel. Period. Big political problem, dynamite in fact. Not a threat to the State of Israel, in any way. Nada.

    However people allege they are and some believe them, which justifies the incursion. It’s not a legitimate justification. Period.

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  70. fatnuts (160 comments) says:

    DPF – If Israel only acts in self defence, or as you put it; “if Hamas stopped rocket attacks, would Israel stop its strikes – absolutely”, how do you think Israel managed to confiscate enough Palestinian West Bank land to house 275,000+ ‘settlers’. Each settlement coming with it’s own buffer zone, military protection and interconnecting highways. Which also need ‘protection’. Land confiscation has accelerated over the Bush years, and is continuing.

    The 100+ settlements are of course Israel’s strategy to legitimise Palestinian land occupied in 1967 as Israel’s own. Problem with this of course is the same UN resolution that gave Israel the right to exist, also gave Palestine the right to exist. Not to mention these settlements all all a direct and flagrant violation of the Geneva convention.

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  71. NeilM (338 comments) says:

    The anti-Israel rabble have desecrated the memorial to Rabin in Wellington. No better statement could be made of how elements of the Left have joined forces with the extreme Right.

    Rabin – a true believer in peace who made the ultimate sacrifice. How pathetic the anti-Israel crowd are. How so very brave of them to pour paint on his legacy.

    Hamas and the Isreali extreme right will be pleased.

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  72. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “The anti-Israel rabble have desecrated the memorial to Rabin in Wellington.”

    They probably didn’t know who he was, fatnuts. Crikey I’d hate to be a lefty, they are SO stupid.

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  73. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Reid you are an A Class fuckin idiot.

    The reason why the causlties are low is because the towns in that area are small and have good early warning systems. But as Hamas have proven they are capable of getting access to more sophisticated rockets that can reach the bigger towns.

    In Reids world violent crime in South Auckland is acceptable because only a few people die every couple of months and it doesn’t threaten the existance of South Auckland.

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  74. metcalph (1,367 comments) says:

    White Phosphorous does not burn to the bone. If a piece of burning WP came into contact with the skin, it can be brushed off in much the same way as a hot ember. It has a long history of use ranging back to the first world war. The “controversial tactic” is the shake-and-bake – if a WP grenade is thrown into a crowded room or bunker then the troops inside will usually try and get out where they can then be shot at. The tactic was used by our troops among other allies during the second world war.

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  75. PhilBest (4,757 comments) says:

    SPIEGEL ONLINE

    01/05/2009 03:37 PMINTERVIEW WITH FORMER FATAH SECURITY CHIEF
    Hamas’s ‘Sole Strategy is Destruction and Chaos’
    Mohammed Dahlan, 47, is the former head of security for Fatah in the Gaza Strip. In a SPIEGEL interview, he discusses the Israeli war against Hamas and why he believes the Islamist organization will lose the next election.

    Amit Shabi / Laif
    Mohammed Dahlan: “I am happy about the coup against Hamas.”
    SPIEGEL: Mr. Dahlan, your Fatah movement was driven out of the Gaza Strip by Hamas one and a half years ago. Are you pleased that Israel is now waging war against your rival?

    Dahlan: No, because it is not the Hamas leaders who are suffering as a result of the attacks. They are sitting safely in their bunkers and watching as people outside are dying. And once again, it is the Palestinian people who are paying the price. They’ve been the pawn of different interests — primarily the Israelis — since 1967. In the 1980s, Israel put Fatah people like me in jail and supported Hamas. What is happening in Gaza today is a consequence of this policy.

    SPIEGEL: Does Hamas share responsibility for the Israeli air strikes?

    Dahlan: With their rockets, they gave Israel a pretext for the war. Hamas is one of the worst organizations in the region. People are afraid of the Islamists and no one in Gaza dares to express criticism. Otherwise they face imprisonment or even death. Just like Israel, Hamas shows no consideration for ordinary people — its fighters fire rockets right from the heart of residential areas.

    SPIEGEL: Do you think the populace will revolt against Hamas?

    Dahlan: It’s not that simple. Didn’t the Americans too think the Iraqis would welcome them with flowers? The Palestinians will only begin to hate Hamas when Israel offers us a genuine peace and Hamas attempts to block this opportunity.

    SPIEGEL: But Israel and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas are still negotiating with each other.

    Dahlen: These talks are meaningless. The Israelis are just stalling us with meetings, conferences and so-called peace processes. By doing so, they’re just playing into Hamas’ hands.

    SPIEGEL: Your Fatah movement has made its own share of mistakes.

    Dahlen: Yes, we still haven’t learned from our election defeat. The election of a new leadership is long overdue.

    SPIEGEL: Rumors are circulating that the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah and the Israeli government came to an agreement on the air strikes.

    Dahlan: Those are conspiracy theories. These attacks are helping neither Mahmoud Abbas nor Fatah.

    SPIEGEL: How realistic is the Israeli goal of destroying Hamas?

    Dahlan: In reality, they don’t actually want that. Israel needs Hamas in order to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state. The motive behind the offensive is to achieve better conditions for the next cease-fire.

    SPIEGEL: But doesn’t the war offer Fatah a new opportunity to assume power in Gaza again?

    Dahlan: We will only return to Gaza after we have won an election — not through military force. If you ask me personally, though, I am happy about the coup against Hamas.

    SPIEGEL: What do you mean?

    Dahlan: The Palestinians have now realized that Hamas is not capable of governing. Their leaders were celebrated as resistance fighters and for fighting corruption, but since their election they have lost all legitimacy. Their sole strategy is destruction and chaos. Hamas has lost its appeal — and it will lose the next election.

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  76. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Reid the worst thing was it was an Anglican Bishop who desecrated the memorial.

    Anglicans, Lefties and Hamas can all go to hell.

    How dare Keith Locke try and claim the march is representative of NZ. They had 100 people made up of refugees, Green Party members and kiddy fiddling priests.

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  77. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Fatnuts they had the opportunity in 48 and turned it down.

    Give us the Jewish houses back in Iraq, Morroco, Yemen, Iran, Libya etc etc etc!

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  78. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Patrick he actually said “kill Jewish children abroad”

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  79. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Reid the worst thing was it was an Anglican Bishop who desecrated the memorial. Anglicans, Lefties and Hamas can all go to hell.”

    Yeh I’m an Anglican as well, SR. However I also understand who Rabin was.

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  80. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Reid you are an A Class fuckin idiot.

    The reason why the causlties are low is because the towns in that area are small and have good early warning systems. But as Hamas have proven they are capable of getting access to more sophisticated rockets that can reach the bigger towns.

    In Reids world violent crime in South Auckland is acceptable because only a few people die every couple of months and it doesn’t threaten the existance of South Auckland.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, crickey SR.

    Seriously, if you can’t see the simple logic behind:
    (a) there is no security threat
    (b) it increases security risks
    (c) therefore, why?

    Then I despair.

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  81. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    And when is the MSM going to split out the figure of Hamas members and family from the supposed death toll? Its like counting solidiers in the number of civilians in a war and is misleading for average dumb arse Kiwi.

    Also how many of those are collaterial damage by Hamas. You can’t tell me Hamas shooting in Gaza, executing Fatah members and chucking grenades hasn’t killed any civilans.

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  82. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Would you desecrate the memorial then? Its the classic Christian dislike for Jesus killers syndrome.

    So it is alright to have 8,000 rockets fires at your civilians, Israeli’s including children with mental trauma and deaths as long as we don’t hurt the poor little Hamas.

    In your world having the Arabs attack the new state of Israeli which had no access to weapons, no real army and most had just survived WW2 was okay.

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  83. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Southern Raider,

    Do you have a reference on one of the priests being a child molester?

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  84. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    It was a general comment made at Anglicans. They have in recent years lost all moral compass.

    The particular priest at the Wellington march is probably not [deleted by DPF], but definetly a complete wanker and if I had of been there seeming him desecrate that memorial I would have head butted the prick. I would also do the same thing to any protesters on Anzac day.

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  85. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Israel is not fighting the Palestinians, they are fighting Hamas. It is just very unfortunate that the innocent Palestinians are stuck in the middle.

    And Reid how would the US save Israel if Iran dropped the bomb. If Iran does anything they’re not going to send the Knesset flowers with two weeks notice. You don’t seem to grasp that the leadership of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran aren’t actually sane.

    Unlike Judaic Law (and I presume the same of Christians) suicide isn’t a valid option. This can’t be said for the others.

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  86. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “It was a general comment made at Anglicans.”

    All of us, or just some of us, SR? You know of course, we’re helplessly, almost zombie-like, trapped in mindless compliance with “The Leadership” of whom, we may not speak.

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  87. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    And Reid how would the US save Israel if Iran dropped the bomb. If Iran does anything they’re not going to send the Knesset flowers with two weeks notice. You don’t seem to grasp that the leadership of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran aren’t actually sane.

    So now you’re suggesting the leaderships of serious political forces need some time at SunnySide?

    Keep digging, SR.

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  88. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Didn’t they close Sunnyside down in ’99?

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  89. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    You need to start taking your meds if you seriously believe the Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran leaderships are your average next door neighbours.

    You’re so misguided you’d see a guy taking it up the arse and still claim he was straight.

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  90. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Hey, “Sunnyside down”. Fuck, I’m hilarious.

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  91. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    These countries still print the Protocols of Zion, Mein Kampf and show anti-semitic cartoons and show in prime time media owned by the state, but no these are just hip young muslims expressing themselves.

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  92. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “no these are just hip young muslims expressing themselves”

    Don’t try to pretend, SR, as some do, that comments criticising Israeli govt strategy are therefore and thereby, “anti-Israeli.”

    If you think that’s what I’m saying, point to something I’ve said that’s wrong, would have a negative consequence if implemented, or wouldn’t work.

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  93. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Didn’t they close Sunnyside down in ‘99?”

    Shows the ills of our society IMO Ryan, when we can’t seem to be able to design a simple effective system to deal with these most vulnerable people.

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  94. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    “there is no security threat”

    Just one of your many stupid points from the last couple of days including suggestions that negotiating with Hamas would lead to anything meaningful and long term.

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  95. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Greenfly “of course not. I’m concerned about the phosphorus ‘bombs’. I’m no advocate for any ’side’”

    so your more concerned about some ‘phosphorus bombs’ (that neither side are using) than you are about

    · Human crucifixion as a punishment
    · Terrorism against innocent Jews around the globe
    · Indiscriminate rocket attacks into jewish residential areas
    · The stated intent to wipe an entire country off the world map

    To get your attention should we use an analogy with a fucken whale …or a plant – or something you greenies better relate to?

    (put the dack down for a moment)

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  96. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Patrick you don’t get it. There is no threat against Israel its just an evil Jewish bedtime story.

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  97. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Funny how the white western world gives out all this aid (both Govt and private funds) to countries with no descrination, yet the Arab one seems to do jack even for their own.

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  98. Whaleoil (650 comments) says:

    Sheesh, why the fuss over White Phosphorus?

    It burns, so what, Laser guided bombs do a fair bit more than WP, they kill you….but oh no there is a big fuss over WP for smoke and illumination……

    I notice the greenies and the hamas huggers all squeal over WP and other Israeli tactics but nary a mention about human shields, rockets and mortars from Hamas.

    I have come to the conclusion that Greenfly and other Hamas huggers are actually anti-Jew. Kill a Jew good, Kill an Arab bad. it is sickening.

    The simple fact is this…..Israel hasn’t chucked any bombs, missiles or anything else into Egypt, Jordan or Syria….why? Because they don’t chuck missiles, bombs or anything else their way.

    It really is that simple. Hamas must denouce violence and the elimination of Israel and all Jews end of story. To that end I ask Greenfly some simple questions that only require a yes or no answer;

    1. Do you support the Hamas Covenant in its entirety?
    2. Do you support Hamas launching rockets and mortars into civilian areas?
    3. Do you support the annihilation of Israel as Hamas has declared?
    4. Do you support the right of a sovereign nation to defend itself?
    5. Do you support the right of Israel to exist?

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  99. joeAverage (311 comments) says:

    Just where are hamas been treated for their wounds????? An arab loving norwegian doctor said hes only seen a couple of terrorists , have these gutless throat slitting arseholes got a underground hospital stocked with all the medicine that the terrorist palistinians say they are lacking (JUST WHERE ARE ALL OF HAMAS INJURED HIDING) next door underground from the shit scared hamas leader, waiting for that bomb from ISRAEL to go to the land of 200 virgins and glory

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  100. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – neither more nor less concerned about each of the things you cite – none I condone. I mentioned phosphorous because no one else had brought it up. Why the reaction from so many of you, I wonder? As for crucifixion, I have asked questions about that here also.
    Mr Whale oil – the conclusion you have come to is wrong and naive but I’m sure you are simply stirring. As to your ‘yes or no answer’ challenge – how daft to demand single word answers on a blog. perhaps some more experience with blogging etiquite might benefit you (no matter what awards you might have been presented with :-)

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  101. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    The best solution for Israel would have been to take the guidance systems of their rockets and set them up around Sderot.

    For every Hamas rocket chucked over the fence the Israeli’s could send one back. As they are unguided they couldn’t be held accountable for where it lands because Hamas isn’t. If Hamas send 30 in one day then so should Israel.

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  102. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    White Phosphorous does not burn to the bone. If a piece of burning WP came into contact with the skin, it can be brushed off in much the same way as a hot ember. It has a long history of use ranging back to the first world war. The “controversial tactic” is the shake-and-bake – if a WP grenade is thrown into a crowded room or bunker then the troops inside will usually try and get out where they can then be shot at. The tactic was used by our troops among other allies during the second world war.

    Do they ‘duck, and cover’ as well, metcalf?

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  103. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Whale what he is saying is he is pro-Hamas but wants to waste oxygen justifying it.

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  104. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Southern Raider I’m beginning to think that.
    According to some of the leftie comments (on this, and previous posts) you cant believe any of the media and you cant believe either sides claims. Funny how they only say this when it’s Hamas who get exposed.

    Maybe there is no conflict in Gaza – and its all fabrication?

    (BTW – watch what you say about all Anglicans – my moms one)

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  105. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “there is no security threat” Just one of your many stupid points from the last couple of days including suggestions that negotiating with Hamas would lead to anything meaningful and long term.

    None of which you and others have ever addressed, SR. Who’s the big silly, then?

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  106. Whaleoil (650 comments) says:

    Greenfly, it was to be the start of a discussion but before I picked you apart I wanted to know just where you stand. But like all leftists you refuse to stand fir anything except support for terrorists and murderers.

    It is quite simple to answer the questions. I’ll do it and perhaps we can then initiate discussion around them.
    1. No
    2. No
    3. No.
    4. Yes
    5.Yes

    There easy. No let’s debate that.

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  107. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Greenfly ” neither more nor less concerned about each of the things you cite” – so despite what you previously implied in your statement, “I’m [more] concerned about the phosphorus ‘bombs’” you are equally as concerned with all the things I have cited as you are with the use of phosphorus as a smoke screen ?

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  108. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Whats to address Reid? All three state their aim is to wipe Israel from the wipe and opening threaten the lives of Jews around the world. Yet you somehow think there is no threat and these are sane individuals you can get an agreement with.

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  109. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Patrick I hope you mother is one of the many starting to doubt not the Anglican church itself, but the leadership and direction as it has been hijacked by liberal left wing elements.

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  110. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “Patrick I hope you mother is one of the many starting to doubt not the Anglican church itself,”

    believe me, it’s often the centre of family debate. She’s one of the true ‘worshippers’ and loyal pamphlet deliverers

    the upside is she knows Labour = Bad & Islam = Bad

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  111. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Whats to address Reid?”

    Erm,
    (a) this is about getting Hamas, not protecting Israel
    (b) this is about mid-Feb Israeli elections, not protecting Israel.

    That’s about it really. It’s interesting that, given those, to me obvious facts, some people and I in no way accuse anyone, seem pretty sanguine with the whole killing, thing.

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  112. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    You’re partly right. This is about getting Hamas to protect Israel.

    There is no point discussing this with you when you see no wrong in some group sending 8,000 over the border.

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  113. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “You’re partly right. This is about getting Hamas to protect Israel.”

    How’d you think up something so very stoopid, SR. I mean, really. I thought ya had at least a vague clue.

    Fuck. Let me explain.

    Hamas are the biggest bastards on the planet. You couldn’t trust them an inch, nor should you, on any non-verifiable, provable level. Never trust em, not one inch.

    Apparently however, some nation elected them. Oh shit.

    We could try and work with genuinely, or not.

    US chose not.

    Rest is history.

    What about that, need I repeat?

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  114. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    The people apparently voted for Mugabwe as well and his party has raped and murdered Zimbabweans. Why can’t we work with his as well.

    What would you suggest offering Hamas? The whole of Israel to do with what they want and every first born Jewish male?

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  115. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    The first thing you do in the IDF is visit Masada. You and your terrorist mates ain’t ever getting your hands on that land.

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  116. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    The people apparently voted for Mugabwe as well and his party has raped and murdered Zimbabweans. Why can’t we work with his as well.

    Because I’m not in charge of the world, SR. If I was, I would have taken out Mugabe long ago.

    What would you suggest offering Hamas? The whole of Israel to do with what they want and every first born Jewish male?

    A chance, SR. Just a chance.

    [The hills were alive, to the sound of music, la dum diddy dum, tra la la la la…)

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  117. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Reid see below stolen from WhaleOils site.

    “A long-range Grad-type Katyusha rocket landed in the schoolyard of a kindergarten in a northern Ashdod neighborhood at approximately 3:20 Monday afternoon — but miraculously, only two people were lightly wounded, one by flying shrapnel.

    Thirty children are normally in the classroom during the day, when the missile struck, but due to Home Front Command instructions, the building was empty at the time.”

    So even if the kindergarten handn’t been cleared it would still be okay becasue they’re only Jews.

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  118. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Tragic isn’t it SR. If only they hadn’t provoked that attack…

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  119. Whaleoil (650 comments) says:

    Provoked it by simply existing and that is the tragedy. But according to Hamas and other supporters of the terrirsts this is ok, clearly it must be because they think Jews are sub-human.

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  120. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    reid, I like a few of your comments on this blog, but we dont agree on this, (albeit Im surprised at you admission @8.49) but to say what you have above @ 9.11 (no pun intended) is not really cricket

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  121. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Hey seriously, tell me that Israel doesn’t act provocatively.

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  122. Whaleoil (650 comments) says:

    Israel doesn’t act provocatively. If hamas doesn’t throw missiles and mortars around everyone lives happily.

    In case you hadn’t noticed there hasn’t been a conflict brtween israel and Egypt or Israel and Jordan for quite sometime, i wonder why because they leave each other alone.

    It is quite simple really, though it would appear to be a step too far for hamas to understand something so simple.

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  123. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    reid.
    as even Obama said “If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.”

    No matter whatever provocation you believe on each side, kids should be sacrosanct.

    I do not believe for a minute Israel would target kids, Hamas however seem to have no qualms strapping bombs to their own kids backs, and have stated they will target Jewish children.
    Your comment is out of order

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  124. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    speaking of which, what’s happened to blowfly?……. phosphorus mortein?

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  125. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Look, heard of the extreme provocation strategy?

    From day one, apply pressure, increase, increase, increase.

    I believe it works well, apparently.

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  126. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    nevertheless your comment is out of order

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  127. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Face the facts, Patrick.

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  128. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    you dissapoint me. kids are sacrosanct

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  129. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Never said they weren’t. Saddens me you manage, somehow, to read that in.

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  130. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Here Reid goes on about the facts again.

    Shall we all go around to Reids place and chuck 30 bricks a day? We know he doesn’t believe in defending your own property.

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  131. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – ““I’m [more] concerned about the phosphorus ‘bombs’”
    More? You’re kidding me, right??
    Mr Whale – apologies for not engaging in prolonged debate with you over the points you presented, only, I was making a point (re phosphorus) not denigrating other points made here (aside from Mr Farrar’s slanted post). I’m not armed up the way you clearly are, just inquisitive as to whether certain points were being explored. I’d no intention of solving the dilemma online. Casting me as anti or pro anything is a curious reaction though, given that I made no great claims. Is that a pre-requisite to commenting here – holding black or white views and combatting? Kinda suits the topic.

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  132. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    C’mon Reid. @ 9.11 you dismissed the Hamas attack on a jewish kindergarten by saying
    “Tragic isn’t it SR. If only they hadn’t provoked that attack”

    as I said, and maintain that comment is out of order!

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  133. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    that’s right greenfly. that’s entirely what you implied

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  134. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – “Patrick Starr – of course not. I’m concerned about the phosphorus bombs. I’m no advocate for any ’side’.

    Can’t see it at all but I’ll conceed if you point it out to me :-)

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  135. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Greenfly – ok, it’s not relevant so I’ll remove the ‘more’

    ” neither more nor less concerned about each of the things you cite” – so despite what you previously implied in your statement, “I’m concerned about the phosphorus ‘bombs’” you are equally as concerned with all the things I have cited as you are with the use of phosphorus as a smoke screen ?

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  136. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “…maintain that comment is out of order!”

    Alright Patrick, out of respect for you I’ll explain it.

    (a) provocation
    (b) more provocation
    (c) no other alternatives

    was all that was ever actually presented to the Gazan Palestinians who voted for Hamas.

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  137. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    OK reid, I’ll ask you this.

    Do you believe, under any circumstance there is justification to kill some innocent child?

    (Provocation or not)

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  138. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Reid not all of them voted for Hamas. The ones that didn’t tended to get shot. If they do that to their own then bitter the Jews.

    Where are the Israeli solidiers like Shallit who were captured after the last incursion? Hamas really believe in the Geneva Convention.

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  139. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Do you believe, under any circumstance there is justification to kill some innocent child?”

    No.

    Edit: We’re not talking morality here though Patrick. We’re talking strategic national security. The two don’t usually impinge.

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  140. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Just brought this book on Fishpond. “Islam and the Jews: The Unfinished Battle”

    Looking forward to a good read. Apparently written by a very senior profressor of Islamic studies at Cairo University.

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  141. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    OK reid, I’ll ask you this.

    Do you believe, under any circumstance there is justification to kill a left wing nutjob?

    (Provocation or not)

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  142. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    then you should withdraw your “Tragic isn’t it SR. If only they hadn’t provoked that attack” comment

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  143. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Just brought this book on Fishpond. “Islam and the Jews: The Unfinished Battle” Looking forward to a good read. Apparently written by a very senior profressor of Islamic studies at Cairo University.

    It’s an excellent book, SR.

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  144. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    OK reid, I’ll ask you this.

    Do you believe, under any circumstance there is justification to kill a left wing nutjob?

    (Provocation or not)

    I don’t know, SR, do you?

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  145. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    then you should withdraw your “Tragic isn’t it SR. If only they hadn’t provoked that attack” comment”

    And what if I don’t, SR?

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  146. kiwi in america (2,314 comments) says:

    reid
    You have persisently downplayed the significance of Hamas’ rocket attacks with a combination of excuses ranging from
    1 – The rockets dont threaten Israel’s security therefore what’s the fuss
    2 – Hamas were democratically elected and the EU, US and other nations were silly or even naughty for not dealing with them
    3 – Fatah were just as bad when they ran Gaza so why the fuss over Hamas.

    You also parrot the line of many of the pro-Palestinian commentators that Israel’s efforts are futile. You also appear to hold the view that Iran harbours no malevolent first strike intent towards Israel.

    There is a difference between Israel’s enemies who could do her great harm and those who can merely pose a nuisance. Many pro-Israel defenders have asked what would be the likely response from a militarily powerful nation if it came under rocket attack from a weaker neighbour (eg Mexico firing rockets into US border towns or Ireland firing on Northern Irish cities). There is hardly a rational observer of world affairs who would hold the view that the US or Great Britain would have done nothing to militarily address over 9,000 rockets launched over 8 years that cause dozens of civilian casualties.

    Israel’s overall security is not immediately threatened by Qassam rocket attacks but Israel rightly views Hamas’ actions in the wider context of who their masters and allies are and what are their overall strategic plans and designs. Since the various wars post the 1948 independence, Israel’s Arab enemies have fallen into two distinct camps – those like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia who have adopted the realpolitik of Israel’s military power and nuclear capability and have learned to live with the presence of the Jewish state and those comprising Iran and Syria (and their militant extremist proxies like Hamas and Hezbollah) who publicly state both in the charters of their organisations and the public pronouncements by their leaders (Nazrallah, Ahmajinadad etc) of their desire to destroy the Jewish state.

    Hamas’ actions in launching rockets into Israel is a two pronged strategy – the first to maximise discomfort to Israel by making life in the border zones as uncomfortable as possible. Their second goal in this latest engagement is identical to that of Hezbollah in 2006 – to entrench their position in their territory (Gaza vs southern Lebanon for Hezbollah) to provide a long term stable platform for the launching of more rockets and of more sophiticated rockets with bigger explosive power with greater reach and accuracy. The only thing preventing a more rapid escalation of rocket sophistication is Iran’s internal economic woes fuelled by western embargos and falling oil prices. Israel’s failure to launch an initial massive land offensive against Hezbollah was an uncharacteristic strategic blunder by Israel because, by the time diplomatic efforts ended that war, Israel had barely begun the worked of rooting out Hezbollah’s entrenched positions south of the Litani. A more aggressive UN presence in the region post 2006 has meant Iran and Syria have rearmed Hezbollah to easily the same if not more than their pre-2006 situation but the presence of many more UN observers makes any military strike by Israel even harder.

    Hamas are seeking a direct replay in Gaza of what their allies in the north achieved in 2006. The strategy is plain and simple – Iran know a conventional air and ground war cannot defeat Israel hence one of their tactics of seeking nuclear weapons. Iran also must know that Israel will not countenance their achieving their final nuclear goal. A likely Netanyahu led coalition govt post Feb 09 is far more likely to order an Osirak style attack in defiance of a less pro-Israel Obama adminstration. Iran is not putting all its offensive eggs into the nuclear basket although thus far, the complicity of Russia and China has succesfully blunted any UNSC action against the ongoing nuclear programme along with the toothless monitoring of the IAEA. Syria can threaten the north western flank around the Golan, Hezbollah’s thorough inflitration of southern Lebanon threatens the north and Hamas entrenched and re-armed in Gaza after genuflecting in the direction of a ceasefire completes for Iran a ring of proximate rocket launching sites around much more of Israel. They are banking on Israel being unable to deploy enough 3rd generation Patriot missiles to defend from all types and sources of rockets particuarly more sophisticated long range missiles launchable from Iran to anywhere in Israel. Hezbollah and Hamas have proven that high volume launches of the cheaper Qassam rockets can still get through after intensive Israeli aerial bombardments. The art of civilian infiltration and the quick deployment of mobile rocket launchers from hospitals, apartment blocks and mosques has become a tried and proven military tactic honed to perfection in the 2006 war.

    So Israel strikes hard at Gaza in an attempt to not only wipe out its leadership but to more aggressivley degrade this platform and tactic. It is attempting to send a message to Hamas’ proxies that this will not be 2006 again. Israel knows it has until the 20th of January as it knows an incoming Obama administration will modify the nudge nudge wink wink approach of the Bush Administration. Hamas will doubtlessly stage an atrocity (as Hezbollah did at Qana) or exaggerate the humanitarian crisis (as numerous events in 2006 that were done so by a compliant largely anti Israeli international media).

    As for the Fatah v Hamas internal fight – the past has shown that Israel’s once implacable enemies (like Egypt) can have a change of tactic. In a maelstrom of confusing and shifting alliances in the Middle East, it is difficult for the US and its allies to know who is a genuine partner for peace. Abbas’ pronouncements and tactics post Arafat have proven to Israel and the US that Fatah SEEM more likely than Hamas to allow a negotiated peace to occur that accepts the fundemental right of Israel to exist. Hamas and Hezbollah still desire Israel’s destruction. You can bleat on about Hamas being legitimately elected – the reality is the major players who have the power to cause a viable peace treaty between the Palestinians and Israel are not going to deal with a group whose very reason for existence is to destroy one of the parties to the peace process.

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  147. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    SR et al
    “You’re partly right. This is about getting Hamas to protect Israel.

    I don’t think you thought this statement out.
    Yet in other posts you allude to the fact that you know and understand the Hamas Charter.

    Hamas will NEVER protect Israel, Hamas will protect Hamas.

    Hamas is prepared (and is presently doing it), to sacrifice children, women and men who aren’t Hamas by provoking Israel to act against it.

    Let’s be careful of what we say.

    Whaleoil is absolutely right to ask the questions he has, so who’s who in the zoo can be illumed as some aren’t who they seem.
    Or are inconsistent with their positions (or conused).

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  148. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    ummm reid, it was actually me who asked you………”And what if I don’t, SR?”

    what if you don’t?….Nothing. But a deal of respect will go down the toilet. No loss to you perhaps but I like to know the morality of the regular commenters on this blog

    I’ve withdrawn and apologised a few tmes…………but that’s just me

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  149. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    1. Do you support the Hamas Covenant in its entirety?
    2. Do you support Hamas launching rockets and mortars into civilian areas?
    3. Do you support the annihilation of Israel as Hamas has declared?
    4. Do you support the right of a sovereign nation to defend itself?
    5. Do you support the right of Israel to exist?

    My answers are
    1. NO
    2. NO
    3. NO
    4. Yes
    5. YES

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  150. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “I’ve withdrawn and apologised a few times, buts that’s just me.”

    Good on ya, ya big girly blouse. I will never apologise. Never.

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  151. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Turpin I was trying to turn around what Reid said and stuffed it up. Typing too quick :)

    What I meant to say was that Israel is going after Hama, to protect Israel eg get rid of Hamas and then you have no problem.

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  152. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “What I meant to say was that Israel is going after Hama, to protect Israel eg get rid of Hamas and then you have no problem.”

    Yeh, but why can’t you see that that’s complete bollocks, SR?

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  153. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    So what’s all your answers to Whaleoil’s questions?

    can’t be that hard to do, it took me 25 secs cut and paste.

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  154. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “Good on ya, ya big girly blouse. I will never apologise. Never.”

    well good on ya reid. it just makes you condoning the murder of jewish children and quite frankly makes you a CUNT

    (sorry DPF and I’ll take my punishment)

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  155. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “well good on ya reid. it just makes you condoning the murder of jewish children”

    Now Patrick, what a horrible accusation. The only one who could possibly be worse than someone who “condones the murder of jewish children” is someone who, while they understood the strategic reasons behind the power plays and what accurately identified the guilty, nevertheless covered up those power plays like some nasty witch, or something, and pretended they never existed at all….

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  156. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Reid, you are a churlish apologist for demonic Terrorism, and a confirmed Jew Detester.

    Just Fuck off and get that Skin Head haircut again!

    Free Speech is fine, but you are a rabid racist.

    Think you should be investigated.

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  157. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Free Speech is fine, but you are a rabid racist. Think you should be investigated.”

    Bwahahaha…, Glutaemus. I’d put my humanity up against yours, any day. Newsflash: Anti-Israeli-Govt-Policies does not equal Anti-Israel. Just in case, that was what’s on your mind.

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  158. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Have you ever been to the Levant?

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  159. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Have you ever been to the Levant?”

    No, SR. Have you ever been to Gravity Canyon?

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  160. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Another concern is the Islamic Radicals kicking off in China, Russia, India, UK, and many other places.

    The Moderate west will soon have to take a position to defend itself.

    So if a Palestinian Suicide Bomber got access to a school in Wellington, and blew themselves up for the cause.

    Or a Smalian Islamic Bitch successfully knifed the flightcrew on a full 737 to Queenstown, no doubt you would suggest that it was not provocation enough and was only a coule of isolated cases by Nutters.

    If it happened 6000 times would that be enough you twat?

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  161. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    SR?

    Gravity Canyon?

    Fuck off imbecile. You are a little pipsqueek with a borrowed set of opinions, and a faulty logic chip.

    You have zero credibility here.

    Go and play with your Democratic mates in Iran.

    The rest are all puppets.

    Frankly I would support a first strike against Iran and Syria.

    Israel, Nato, the US, and Russia.

    It could so easily happen. Who cares what Turkey would do?

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  162. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “Another concern is the Islamic Radicals kicking off in China, Russia, India, UK, and many other places.”

    Indeed it is, Glutaemus. US/Israel’s current strategy re: this factor hasn’t done at all well, wouldn’t you agree? I mean, over time. Isn’t it obvious? The old “definition of insanity” trap speaks to those of us with ears, louder and louder, everyday.

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  163. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    “SR? Gravity Canyon?”

    Yeh, sorry Glutaemus, sometimes I mistake one idiot for another, and, well, you know…

    So wot’s the Levant’s relevance here. Why are you such a tosser? These and many q’s course through my mind…

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  164. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    If you have never been there your opinion is almost valueless.

    Think you need a swift kick in the gonads to get you back to reality.

    Perhaps you should comment profusely on events that you are certain of.

    Here you just make yourself look ridiculous.

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  165. reid (16,697 comments) says:

    Glutaemus, love the way you just refute one by one the points made, in a logical evidential manner. Thanks for playing.

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  166. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    reid, You simply ignore anything put before you.

    You are a bigot, racist and a bore.

    Perhaps you you get down to Gravity Canyon, and let all those Q’s course through your head.

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  167. Turpin (342 comments) says:

    I can’t log in on the Richard Falk post.
    Is this happening to anyone else.
    also my post answering Kiki has been deleted refering to http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/ and it’s answers to her assertion.

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  168. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Greenfly. you still haven’t answered my question.
    This may assist you to contemplate which is worse, phosphorus used as a smoke screen,

    or this

    http://www.rawa.org/handcut3.htm

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  169. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – playing a ‘which is worse’ game is petty, don’t you think? Are you hoping to escalate it to a ‘my knowledge of war atrocities is worse than your knowledge of war atrocities” game? I don’t seek out such images. My interest was in the reaction from people here to the use of phosphorus over a civilian area. I think your ‘smokescreen’ call might just be a smokescreen.
    I notice that you have a problem with extrapolating wildly and innacurately from what people say, to what you imagine they might say and curiously, it’s always inflamatory.

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  170. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Greenfly of course you would think its petty, because the facts don’t support the stance of left wing antisemitism.

    It was you after all who first attempted the comparison “How does it compare with death from phosphorus burns, I wonder?”

    I’m pointing out the obvious that you choose so conveniently to ignore. When there is an elephant in the room you only manage to notice the dust in the right hand corner.

    Is it that difficult for you to admit the terrorist Hamas might be committing far worse atrocities and be at fault here?

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  171. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – that ‘dust in the right hand corner’ burns. Discussing the ‘elephant’ is hardly something that con result in anything constructive, especially here. Are you suggesting that we can’t discuss any human activity without an exhaustive exploration of the entire history of the human race? You must have a lot of time on your hands!

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  172. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    So you didn’t really have anything to debate, or a point to make – you were just trolling.

    “You must have a lot of time on your hands!” – speaking of which, don’t you have some housework to do or something? Be a good little girl and run along now.

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  173. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    PS -“So you didn’t really have anything to debate, or a point to make” Correct in the first, wrong in the second.
    As I owned earlier, I didn’t invite debate but I did have a point to make. As to the housework, I’ll try to get some done – already this morning I’ve done my 2 hour stint hosting on the ‘wireless’ and written copy for my column as well as set my workers up for a day’s scrub cutting, so we’ll see how it goes. p.s.PS – How on earth did you know that I was a good girl?

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  174. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you didn’t make any point.

    “How on earth did you know that I was a good girl?” I know you are a girl by your ‘rationale’
    I don’t know that you are a ‘good’ girl, I just encouraged you to become one

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  175. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – that is bad news indeed. I’d thought that this “That illegal phosphorus that is being deployed by Israel in the skies over Gaza today.” from my original comment, was a point, but I see you are right, it’s merely an observation. There was some point in the comment however, that being that no one else had made the observation and that it related, closely I thought, to Mr Farrar’s post, where he mentioned crucifixion in terms that reflected my thoughts on the use of phosphorus over civilian areas – that is, its appalling nature. Can you do something for me (genuine request) define what a troll is? Thought I wasn’t, maybe I am. Cheers

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  176. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Well you see there you go again. You made a comment that, IMO was attempting to show that a defensive technique used by a sovereign state in a war against terrorism, (and not intended to harm) was in some way comparative to recently reintroduced barbaric punishments that a bunch of terrorists are imposing on their own people. (intended to both harm or kill) Had you not deliberately set out to “play a which is worse game” by using Israel you could easily have made an observation that, by way of example; If you strap a bomb to a childs back and send him into a crowd to blow up it could be worse than being crucified.
    As it was irrelevant to the discussion, it was, IMO trolling [wiki def; irrelevant or off-topic comment with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion]

    Not only was it trolling your comment lacked accuracy. As pointed out by many comments, including my own phosphorus is not illegal – so whilst it may have been your observation, it was factually incorrect

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  177. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – we’ve our own ‘war of attrition’ it seems.
    Well then, I have some questions and maybe some points for you.
    You say that the phosphorus bombs are ‘a defensive technique’ yet they are being deployed to ‘mask’ an attack? You are being disingenuous. You imply that they are simply being used to make smoke, yet many commentators outside of the bounds of this blog say differently. Even some here question the validity of that claim, one in particular pointing out that there are many other benign methods of creating smoke cover. Why was phosphorus used at all? How certain are you of your ‘facts’ and where did you garner your information (is your source more reliable than mine?) I’m struggling to see how the issue of phosphorus is ‘irrelevant to the discussion’. In fact, its mention created some interesting interactions amongst commenters here. As to your ‘troll’ claim (thank you for that research btw) did you believe an ‘emotional response’ was the result of my comment? The charge of ‘emotive’ comments was one directed at the so called ‘lefty’ commenters, as you may recall. I question also, that ‘normal on-topic discussion’ was disrupted by the comment about the ‘smokebombs’. Aren’t you being a bit precious? Your claim that the action wasn’t illegal interests me. To believe that you must believe the ‘smokescreen’ claim. Why do you accept that that was the case? Do you have inside information on the issue or did you simply accept the explanations given and at the same time reject the suggestions from the various journalists reporting on the action. You make authoritive claims but I don’t see how you are in a position to do so. Perhaps you are just an opinionated fellow. I suspect this ‘picking over the bones’ of an argument is boring to everyone else and perhaps to you also. If so, I won’t be dissapointed by a cessation of ‘hostilities’ :-)

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  178. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    McCully has finally called for a ceasefire Patrick. Why would that be now?

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  179. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    There is something about deploying massive amounts of smoke that tends to ruin the element of surprise in any attack -dont you think?
    If you use smoke to screen your position you are doing it so you are not seen and fired upon. It is therefore a defensive technique. Same as defensive armour plating on an offensive army tank
    Smoke, is a defensive technique, whether used in an offensive or defensive manoeuvre.
    Im not being disingenuous, it’s perhaps your thought process is a little aberrant

    Regardless of whether it was defensive phosphorus smoke or offensive phosphorus bombs the latter is only illegal to if you are a signatory to Protocol III. As earlier stated;

    “you rely on Protocol III, that prohibits the use of all ‘air-delivered’ incendiary weapons against civilian populations, or for ‘indiscriminate’ incendiary attacks against military forces co-located with civilians. However, that protocol also specifically excludes weapons whose incendiary effects are secondary, such as smoke grenades which the photos show were being used. Nevertheless as earlier said Israel, (like the USA) are not signatories to Protocol III”

    “Perhaps you are just an opinionated fellow” – a prerequisite to blogging I would have thought

    I wont be dissapointed by a cessation of hostilities either, but do not believe peace will ever be possible whilst Hamas is part of the equation

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  180. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr – your defensive argument stinks! It could just as easily be claimed that an attacking army is ‘defending’ itself by firing shells ahead to ‘defend’ it’s soldiers as rthey advanced. Come on! But we’re not likely to reach agreement there are we.
    Protocol III has not been agreed to by Israel and the USA, meaning that it has been by other nations (I presume?) You’re confident that that makes the use by those two powers ‘right’? Why? Because they didn’t ‘agree’? Shouldn’t the other side have to agree also? If not, why not?
    You’ve not adressed the issue of using non-contraversial methods to make smoke, given that there are real concerns that the method used is regarded by many as an act of terrorism.

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  181. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Yeah, well I didn’t expect you to process that.
    “defending’ itself by firing shells ahead to ‘defend’ it’s soldiers as rthey advanced” – no, because they would be on the offensive, and firing shells at people are designed to kill them.

    “Protocol III has not been agreed to by Israel and the USA, meaning that it has been by other nations (I presume?) You’re confident that that makes the use by those two powers ‘right’? Why?” because they are democratically elected governments itself determining sovereign states who shouldn’t be told by anyone else what to do. Muslims believe Sharia system of law should be applied to the entire world, so I trust you are wearing your burkha

    “the method used is regarded by many as an act of terrorism” I’m sure you don’t want to get into a debate on who is the biggest terrorist – because I’ve never heard of a terrorist who is not a Muslim.

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  182. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    And before you say it, Alain Mafart and Dominique Prieur were sabatoeurs guilty of manslaughter

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  183. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Aren’t protocols of the III type generally agreed upon by clusters of nations, rather than singles? I’d have thought that was a prerequisite, especially one that involves warfare that surely affects others? Is it ethical to opt out?

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  184. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    I’ve sent the following email to the Catholic Church today.

    “I wish to register my absolute disgust at the vandalism and descecration of the Rabin memorial in Wellington by Father Burns.

    While I respect any person’s right to peaceful protest there is no justification for this act against a Nobel Peace Prize winner, even worse when committed and celebrated by a supposed community leader.

    To compound this the Catholic Church seems to be condoning this act through their continued silence.

    My hope is that the Catholic Church will show some leadership in condemning this gross and wholey unjustified criminal behavious.”

    I encouragement everyone else to send messages of disgust at their silence to communications@catholic.org.nz

    Does anyone know if a complaint has been laid with the Police for vandalism, graffiti and descecration of a public place and memorial? All the evidence is on camera and he has admitted the crime.

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  185. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Greenfly its not ethical to strap a bomb around your waste and blow up civilians on a bus.

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  186. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    I see Minto is also trying to arrange protests at the ASB Classic to harass the Israeli player.

    Anyone know where you can buy an Israeli flag in Auckland?

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  187. greenfly (1,059 comments) says:

    Southern Raider – you are quite correct but your purpose in telling me that is very obscure.

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  188. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Beause you seem to have a one sided view.

    I see the news tonight highlighting three schools hit by shells. Absolutely no mention of the Jewish kindergarten hit yesterday.

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  189. sally (23 comments) says:

    Southern Raider – David Zwartz the ex-NZ/Israeli spokesman has laid a formal complaint with the police. I understand that members of the Wellington Jewish community have tried to clean up the mess as best they can but professional stain removal will be necessary.

    The silence of the Catholic Church who should morally and practically clean up this mess is deafening and disgusting. I urge all, and particularly Catholics, to read the book “Hitler’s Pope” to understand the historical responsilbility the Church has taken in stoking anti-semitism and of course for having a significant hand in allowing the Holocaust to progress unchecked through Catholic Europe.

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  190. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Sally and the Father reiterated today it doesn’t care. He tried to say the blood will wash off, but failed to mention the pope.

    I don’t expect the Police to do anything, they’re too PC.

    I bet if I painted a large swaztika on my local Catholic church I would get a different reaction from the Police.

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  191. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    The truth about the latest “UN School” attack.

    Hamas and UN spokesmen rushed to the media with reports of a UN school being bombed in spite of the fact that it was being used as a shelter for civilians i.e. not as a school at the time.

    The school building was being used by Hamas to fire mortars against Israel.

    The IDF Spokesmen release a video of mortars being fired from the school before Israel shot back.

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  192. jcuknz (689 comments) says:

    Some basic facts about the Gaza strip http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html?th&emc=th

    Which confirms my feelings about the terroist IDF though of course being a Government organisation they cannot be terrorists for sure can they … If isreal opened the Gaza strip to the world and accepted Hamas as the democratically elected government then for all Hamas posturing about eliminating Israel common sense would prevail and peace would return to the the area.

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  193. Mana Haganah (1 comment) says:

    It’s great to see blog postings like this especially as there seems to be an undercurrent of knee-jerk Israel hate in our fine country. Yesterday Hone Harawira has some disgusting thoughts of his own to contribute to issue:
    http://tvnz.co.nz/view/video_popup_windows_skin/424815

    my stunned thoughts on viewing his idiocy this morning:
    http://manahaganah.blogspot.com/2009/01/hone-harawiras-comments-on-te-karere.html

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